Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Beginning Again From Where We Are: Rabbi Dalia Marx on Rosh Hashanah 5787
Transcript
- Dalia Marx: Chuvah comes from the very basic Josh Weinberg: you Dalia Marx: notion that makes Judaism such a positive and such an optimistic, religion and culture, right? We believe that we can return. The idea of Chuvah is Lashuv, to go back to the original place and the original place is beautiful and it's pure. One of the first blessings we say every morning, My God, the soul that you have given me is pure, right? Maybe throughout the day I kind of miss the mark and I do bad things, I stain this beautiful, pure soul, but originally it is pure. And I think one of our obligations is to look for this pure place in our souls. And they believe that you can do it, right? This is really the very positive nature of Judaism, that you can really go back to that point. then you should. Orly Erez Likhovski: Welcome back to the Pluralist podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Erzlikovsky, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and Director of ARTSA. Great to be with you, Orly. How are you? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, I'm, you know, good, very, very tense days with, you know, the lists being submitted to the Central Election Committee and we're really. Josh Weinberg: Yes, we are recording a day before the lists are due, but most of them have submitted already, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, so it's really the last stretch almost before the election, so there's a lot going on, a lot of concerns, a lot of hopes. We'll talk about this today. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, and I feel like as as rabbis, know, orly I'm including you in that that, Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: know, you could make a nice jusha, a nice sermon between, you know, the finalizing of the lists and all of that, you know, Yom Kippur and finalizing your being inscribed for a new year and all of that. And I think that our guests will have a lot to say about those things as we get forward. And, you know, people Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, completely. Josh Weinberg: say that the the chagim, you the holidays came early this year. I think that they're always on time. Exactly every year each time, but it feels a little bit, you know, right at the beginning of the school year and all of that. So alright, lots to talk about today. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, you know, it's yeah, you know, and really in just a few days, we are all going together for, know, Rosh Hashanah and to welcome this new year, right? 5 7 8 7. And Rostra Shana is always a beginning, right? It's always a chance for renewal, for reflection, for change. And I think this year, especially after years of war and political division, religious extremism, a lot of distrust, so much trauma, that feels especially necessary. And as we said, with the elections of the horizon and the real possibility of political change, the question is really how can we use this special moment for a real chishbon nefesh? really, really have an honest reflection on where we are now, what we have learned, what we need to change both as individuals and as society as a whole. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. And there's so much to both look into ourselves, you know, be introspective and to do that collectively as a society. That's really important. I want to just say right now that as people are thinking about their preparations, you know, for the holidays, it should not go without being said that it's important to make high holiday donations and you should make it to us. OK, you should support the Pluralist Podcast. You should support Iraq. You should support the Reform Movement in Israel. support the arts and URJ in North America. And let's get that right off the bat and get it said done. Don't have to wait till the end for the, you know, the president of the congregation to make their long appeal. We can do that right now. And then we can now welcome our guests who I'm so excited to talk to and to really help us think about these questions. We are joined by Rabbi Professor Dahlia Marx. Shalom. Dalia Marx: Shalom Shalom! Good to be with you! Josh Weinberg: Dahlia, in addition to being my teacher and my professor and rabbi, is a reform rabbi and a scholar of Jewish liturgy. And she is the Rabbi Aaron Deepak and professor of liturgy in Midrash at Hebrew Union College in Jerusalem. Dahlia, you should know, is a 10th generation Jerusalemite and, of course, a leading voice in Israeli liberal Judaism. Her books include When I Sleep and When I Wake on Prayers Between Dusk and Dawn, a feminist commentary on the Babylonian Talmud, and, of course, most recently, which you should all Orly Erez Likhovski: Thanks. Josh Weinberg: rush out to get, From time to time or in Hebrew, bezman journeys in the Jewish calendar. I'm told Dahlia that Netflix is picking that up and turning it into a movie soon. Okay, that'll be great. She was the lead editor of the Israeli Reform Seed or Tfilat Ha Adam right back here and is currently working with Rabbi Lior Ezraachi on a new Israeli Reform High Holiday Machzor, which we're very excited to see. It's a nearing publication. Dalia, thank you so much for joining us and for being with us today. Dalia Marx: Thank you for having me. One of the privileges in my profession is that my students become my colleagues and occasionally also my teachers. So I consider you also as my teacher in many of the things that you do for our people. So thank you very much, both of you. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, Dalia. And really, let's dive right in. And I want to start by asking you, what is Rosh Hashanah for you? And specifically, how are you approaching it this year with everything that's going around us? Dalia Marx: Yes, you know, according to our tradition Rosh Hashanah is when the world was created, the world was conceived, Ayom Harat Olam, you know, God in a way, God is a big mother and he gave birth to the world on Rosh Hashanah or a week before Rosh Hashanah and on Rosh Hashanah it's the creation of the human being. So I take it very, very seriously when I try to take it very seriously when I think about Rosh Hashanah as a time of the year where I can really think about what needs to be born. what needs to be conceived, what should be created in my world, in my personal world, in my family, in my community, in the Jewish people and in the world. And of course, we're not working in a vacuum or in empty space. We're working in a situation that is not easy, to say the least, in both sides of the oceans, as you occasionally say. So I think this year in particular, the Rosh Hashanah comes On time as Rabbi Warren Briggs said. Orly Erez Likhovski: And yeah, Josh mentioned your really wonderful book, which I have it here in Hebrew, Baznan, from time to time. And it Dalia Marx: You have the Hebrew. Yeah. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: really explores the Jewish year in a fascinating and accessible way. And I turn to it over and over again. And I want to ask you what building on your book and what you have there and in other writings that you published, what do you think we should focus on when we think about Rosh Hashanah? Dalia Marx: Right, know, I think, you know, maybe in five minutes I'll give you a different answer, but right now as we speak, I think about, when we think about time, we think about two separate systems, right? We think about the cyclical nature of time, yeah, sunrise, sunset, cycle of the day, cycle of the week, the month, the year. We also talk about the sabbatical year and the jubilee. And then we talk about the linear time. And the linear time is the historical time, right? According to our tradition, the world was created, the world will be redeemed. Any moment that we experience will never come back. Even if all of us will sit here in a podcast and God willing the situation will be much better. Exactly a year from here, from now, and we will be dressed in the same clothes and talk about the same topics. We will not be the same. The world hopefully will not be the same. And so you cannot really go back to that point. But in times... that the historical time, the linear time is difficult, I think we can draw a lot of comfort and nehama, consolation from the cyclical nature of time. We can always go back to the same point, but we are different. The world is creating, it's like a spiral, right? And we keep evolving and we always can count on going back to the same point in a way. And I know, we all know that Jews, celebrated Rosh Hashanah in very different circumstances and situations, sometimes under occupation or under, you know, during exile, Josh Weinberg: Captivity. Dalia Marx: during pogroms, during the Holocaust, during really difficult times. And we are in a difficult time, but we can also think and reflect on the fact that there are a lot of really good things in our world, right? It doesn't dismiss the difficult aspects, but we have our... country, we have our state. I am speaking to you from Jerusalem. That's my home. And tonight here at Hebrew Union College where I'm working and where I'm speaking to you from, from the president's apartment here, we're going to have a beautiful slichot event led by our very own cantor Rabbi Shani Ben-O. And it's going to be a big event with a lot of really creative person, know, singers and paitanim. people from all over Jerusalem will come to celebrate with us. And it's not going to be just a reform event. It's going to be a Jerusalem event. So I Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Dalia Marx: think there's a lot to celebrate too. But really, drawing from the Josh Weinberg: That's amazing. Dalia Marx: repetitive nature of time can sometimes be a source of hope and nehama. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, and I think the simple message, what you said, Dahlia, that I really love and I think that many of us are aware of this intellectually that even though the year has changed and there's been a cycle around the sun, that we are different each time and we come back to those places. thank you for making that point. And it's that time for asking ourselves, where are we? And I want to touch on another project that you've been very involved in. A number of years ago, you put out a new Israeli sidur, Tfilat Ha Adam, after the original sidur, Avodah Shevelev, which was written in early 80s. You know, it's time to make a new sidur. And now it's time to make a new machzor. First of all, why? Why do we need a machzor? And what kind of things are you bringing to that? How do you approach such a project right now? And how does the liturgy need to modernize as well and respond to the events? of the past few years and really meet people where they are. Dalia Marx: wow, it's several really deep questions. Let me just go and grab Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Dalia Marx: for a moment the final draft of our Machzor. I just received Josh Weinberg: So, the galley copy, yeah. Dalia Marx: it yesterday. Our producer Josh Weinberg: Mazel tov, mazel tov. Dalia Marx: and co-editor, Rabbi Liora Vered Ezrahi, just brought it to me from the printing press practically. Why a Machzor, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: and it's called, it's called Beslicha V'chesed. Dalia Marx: It is called Meslichal Vechesen and you of course recognize where the words come from, Orly Erez Likhovski: flag. Dalia Marx: We continue the tradition of Tfilat HaAdam. Tfilat HaAdam are the final words of Hannah Senech's poem, Eli Eli. My God, I pray that these things never end and it ends with Josh Weinberg: I had a key set, yeah. Sure. Dalia Marx: the prayer of the human heart or the human being, right? Adam is human being, it's not a gender term in Hebrew. Josh Weinberg: In English they translate it as to the prayer of the heart, but you're right. Dalia Marx: Yeah, no, but sometimes people say to us Adam is man, where is the tefillat haisha? But Adam in Hebrew is a non-gender. But Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Dalia Marx: we drew upon a tefillah, prayer that was composed by a modern Jewish woman, a Jewish poet. And we decided to do the same with the slicha of chesed and the words, the combination of these words with pardon and chesed, kindness. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, loving Josh Weinberg: Kindness, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: kindness. Yeah. Dalia Marx: Shall we translate? Yeah, we need to think about a agreed upon translation, right? That's another thing. Josh Weinberg: Yeah Dalia Marx: These are the words from a Leah Goldberg poem that she composed there during World War II, right? When things were really bad. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Dalia Marx: So we brought these words and it resonates to every ear of Israelis and it in a way say to them, prayers are our ancient source. of expression, but they're also very modern and prayers are being composed all the time. That's what we try to do in the Sidur now with the Machzor to really bring together, that's what I try to do in my book from time to time, to really bring together under the covers of one volume many traditions, ancient and contemporary from the Middle Ages, from different ethnic groups within Judaism, from different denominations. And especially to stress and to bring to the attention the female voice, women's voices, right? Because as we know, women comprise about half of the Jewish population. I'm sure that doesn't come as a surprise to you. Josh Weinberg: I think if not just the Jewish population, right? Am I correct in saying that? Yeah. Dalia Marx: of the human population. And nevertheless, you know, from Dvorah the prophet to Dvorah Baron in the 20th century, there were basically no books composed by Jewish women. And it was our job to bring Jewish voices of women in poetry, in prayer. That was something that was very important in our task. So this is what we did. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: go ahead, Josh. Josh Weinberg: No, I mean, that's amazing. And I think that many of our congregations will start, or Kihilote in Israel will start using it next year, right? Not this year. Dalia Marx: So this year we created about 1,500 copies. Not all of them are of the entire thing. And we gave them to different key lot. And they're going to use them and give us feedback. That's the third year we're doing it. In a way, we learned from our older sibling, the CCR. We work in very tight connection with the CCR press, with the Rabbi Haraperson. and with Rafael Cheykin and we get a lot of really good advice from them and this is what they did when they worked on Mishkan Tfilah and then Mishkan HaNepish they created drafts Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Dalia Marx: like soft cover paperback and Josh Weinberg: Like a soft launch almost of it, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Dalia Marx: send them to many congregations, received feedback, revised it, send it back so that's what we're going to do it's more difficult with a Machzor than with a Sidur because Sidur you you use it every day or every Shabbat the machzor you use, you have only one chance to review kol nidrei, Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank Dalia Marx: right? So that's a more demanding task. Josh Weinberg: I will be using some of it in my Tfilan Yom Kippur for Israelis here in Brooklyn in New York. And we'll bring a little bit of that spirit to us as well. Dalia Marx: you need Orly Erez Likhovski: amazing. Dalia Marx: to remember to tell me how it went. Orly Erez Likhovski: For sure. You when you spoke Dalia about sort of modernizing the prayer and bringing female voices, but I want to ask you, especially after October 7th, what do you think is the meaning now of prayer for Jews in general and for Israeli Jews in particular? I know there has been sort of a trend for, you know, more people are looking for prayer and for, you know, community and for rituals because of the chaos and uncertainty that surrounds us. So how do you see that? Dalia Marx: Right, I think the massacre on October 7th yielded, I may use this word in this context, unprecedented number of prayers and supplications and liturgical hymns and all kinds of liturgical and pyro-liturgical responses. We have never seen anything like that. I remember when my dad came back from the Yom Kippur War in 1973, he had a little... Book of Psalms they received from the chief rabbi and there was a little prayer that someone composed, nothing like what we see now. Now we see what we see, it's really hundreds and hundreds of prayers that were composed in different segments of the Israeli society, reflecting very different emotions and feelings and responses to what happened. I collected them, I actually wrote about them in Hebrew. It's gonna be like a big article coming out, but also in English. published by the CCR, all kinds of responses. People really were bewildered. October 7th, Krotatz, completely unprepared. And I think for Americans, it's very maybe suitable to compare it to September 11th, which this year will fall on really Erev Rosh Hashanah. it's, yes, the 25th anniversary. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, the 25th anniversary, of course, which is, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Dalia Marx: I think Israelis, as you said, only look for prayer, look for spirituality, look for holiness, especially in the facing situation where holiness was broken and shattered and people's homes were defiled Orly Erez Likhovski: Bye. Dalia Marx: and people's lives were consumed in such a violent way. some of what we see is not very encouraging, be honest, right? A lot of things you see in the press these days are what at least I think you could understand, although I don't live in these people's minds. it's something that is very, I don't want to say arbitrary, but maybe superficial approach to religion. some mitzvot are picked and performed but not necessarily with a lot of reflection and a lot of understanding and very often detached from any ethical or moral aspect. Yesterday one of our rabbis who was very active in the territories to protect the local farmers said that whenever they see people with their tzitzit out, that's a sign of danger. And it made me so sad. That's such Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Dalia Marx: an important Jewish symbol. We read about it in the Torah. We read this parasha in the Shema Liturgy twice a day. It's a very important mitzvah. How come that the performance of this mitzvah or the visibility of this mitzvah is a sign of danger? Or the sign Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Dalia Marx: of expected violence toward Palestinians and non-Palestinians? Josh Weinberg: And that has been, and Orly Erez Likhovski: in. Josh Weinberg: that has been one thing that we have seen many people coming, including former hostages who have saying now I'm going to wear it, you know, every day or I'm going to write. that, is that true? And I, and I appreciate it. How you caged that in terms of, you know, how do we adapt meets vote? How do we include ritual in our life? And what is the process that we should go through? Or, you know, it feels like almost, I remember almost always used to write about a person drowning who grabs onto a raft. and says, save me, give me something to hold on to. And in your experience, that typical or how do we also as reform Jews and rabbis and professors of liturgy approach? Yeah, Dalia Marx: There's so many of us, huh? Josh Weinberg: it's a huge, but how do we really? understand this phenomenon, even beyond, and where do you see it going? And where does the reform movement play into that in terms of, know, helping people or guiding people through these moments? Dalia Marx: Right, and I want to make sure that I'm not misunderstood here. I have nothing against people taking upon themselves mitzvot, right? In the reform movement, we are all about choice, right? We inform choice. You make choice what you want to Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Dalia Marx: incorporate into your life. That's fine. My worry is that it sometimes has to do with social media influencers. A lot of people are paid to say that they keep family purity or, Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Dalia Marx: And a lot of these things are very clearly detached from any aspect of morality or ethical thinking about who we are or reflective understanding of our Jewish lives. And that worries me, but that's one part of it. Another part is really people are looking for meaning in their lives. And that's not a bad thing. I think we need to see how we in the liberal and pluralist world really can help these people. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I think what you mentioned is you're completely correct. There is this trend, right? There's like this popular trend of actually showing symbols of tzitzit and filin and deciding to dress modestly one day a week. mean, things that seem to us very arbitrary and very superficial, as you say, without actually thinking what do Jewish values actually mean? that's... worry some, and it is obviously especially popular among young people and it's very influenced by social media, influencers. But you you mentioned the terrible things that are happening in the West Bank and I think that's a good point to ask you. mean, now... In Rosh Hashanah, we want to start anew, right? But in the world there are so many terrible things that are happening that we can't just leave behind, right? Obviously we have to keep engaging and fighting against and raising a voice against. So what does it mean for us to actually now on Rosh Hashanah to begin again? How do we do this at a time of this crazy reality that we are experiencing, by the way, both in Israel and in the North America Dalia Marx: Yes? Orly Erez Likhovski: and in so many other places in the world? Dalia Marx: Right, right, right, right. I think we have the tendency to have this binary picture between North America and Israel. I just came back from Brazil. I met there very vibrant, beautiful set of Jewish communities, very Zionist, very open. We tend to overlook them. We sometimes overlook European communities. We sometimes overlook Latin American communities. A lot is happening there and also, as you say, a lot of very, very difficult things. And it seems sometimes that we are overwhelmed with bad news, right? You open the newspaper and after two hours you have a different catastrophe that happens because something that would last for two weeks in the previous world, that is to say, I don't know, five, six years ago, is, you know... can survive on the news for two hours because really bad things happen all the time and you you can't really keep up with all the bad things that are happening. And I can tell you that personally what is painful for me most is the really horrific use people do of our Jewish life, our Jewish values, our Jewish belief, our Jewish text, oppressing other people and doing horrific things. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, it's a clear distortion of our textual tradition and the lessons that we're supposed to take from that. Yeah. Dalia Marx: You know, Josh, have to say that I don't completely agree with you on this. I think Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Dalia Marx: their reading of our sources is legitimate. You can find their views in the sources. You Orly Erez Likhovski: Everything. Yeah. Dalia Marx: can find it. You can find the duty that the Israelites had to completely destroy and kill the seven peoples that they dwelled on. You can find it. But I think it's... Josh Weinberg: Yes, Deuteronomy chapter seven, yeah, we know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dalia Marx: Exactly, yes. So I think it's our duty not to say that it's not a Jewish thing to do these terrible things. Unfortunately, it is a Jewish thing. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Dalia Marx: Our duty is to say that's not the Judaism that we want or that we endorse Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Dalia Marx: and that we want to see in the Jewish state. We completely oppose it. We want to... Orly Erez Likhovski: And Dalia also to tell Israelis that Judaism has many, many values because many have started to associate for many years Judaism with certain aspects which are Dalia Marx: Exactly. Orly Erez Likhovski: not Jewish in our view. Dalia Marx: Exactly. again, once again, won't say they are not Jewish. They are Jewish, but it's not our Judaism and it's not the Judaism that can thrive in this land if we seek life, if we seek to continue to live in this country and in this world in a way that will ensure our children and grandchildren and their children. to live in a meaningful way here, right? Because, and I think we have to raise our voice and speak very loudly about these things. That's what I try to do a lot, but you know, it's not, I don't need to tell you because you know better than me how difficult it is when the other side is so heavily sponsored by our tax money and by, you know, by the government. It's very difficult. That's why we're so hopeful toward the elections and, know, yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, yeah, no, completely. completely agree with you and I think we have to remind, you know, Israelis that, you know, what we are talking about is not less Jewish than what people have, you know, they, you know, were used to think of Judaism about this. And I think it's definitely a question of resources and of, you know, fair competition. And hopefully we will be able to bring about political change and following that to create a more, you know, Jewish and democratic Israel. And obviously this is very much on our mind these days especially. Josh Weinberg: And I think the danger is greater than the actual act that they are doing is that so many people are watching us and Israelis are watching this with a guy with keep on seat seat going to attack a Palestinian village. And the same thing with the Haredin, by the way, to say, OK, if that is Judaism, I don't want any part of it. And Dalia Marx: Exactly. Right. Josh Weinberg: I think that that's even a greater threat to Israeli society to say, wait a second, here we are. talking Judaism and we're trying to bring people into, know, Batik Neset, into Kehilot, into community and Tefillah, you know, in prayer and ritual and all these things and say, wait a minute, there's a great deal of beauty in Judaism. And they're saying, well, wait a second, can those two things coexist? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I think that really Dalia Marx: Right. Orly Erez Likhovski: presents an opportunity for liberal Judaism in general, for reform Judaism in particular, to offer this to Israelis, something that is aligned with their liberal values and brings the beauty and richness of Judaism. But talking about those beautiful things, let's be optimistic for a second and say, what do you think, Talia, we should actually carry, bring with us from the last year to the coming year about positive things that we see around? There are so many beautiful things despite the calamities that we've been experiencing. Dalia Marx: So first of all, everything that you said about Judaism, I completely agree and I think you can say the same thing about Zionism, right? I wanna be speak loudly as a Zionist and to promote our kind of Zionism, Zionism is not these horrific things you see on television. That's part of it, but you have other options that are healthier and better. What I think we take with us, first of all, our resilience. We live in a constant state of crisis and trauma for quite a while now, right? Quite a while and I didn't know people can endure so much trauma for such a long time and be in the streets for protests and demonstrations and really rejecting the government and sometimes it can be unpleasant as you know. It can be, you know, police brutality, something that both of us suffered from, and other people brutality toward the demonstrators is also something that we have experienced. But nevertheless, people come and show up. You know, they just show up. You see, really older people can barely stand, come to these demonstrations. You see, young families with newborns come to these demonstrations. And I think this is something, this resilience. shows you the vitality of the Jewish people on one hand and of the Israeli people too, right? In his expression of hope. Because if you are not hopeful, you would just not do that. You would just cave in into Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Dalia Marx: your home and Netflix or what have you, or leave the country or, you know, go into all kinds of, you know, abuses, substance, Josh Weinberg: Right. Dalia Marx: you know, alcohol, whatever. But no, people do show up. think it's a big thing and this is what Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Dalia Marx: early I want to take with me from these years. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I think really talking about going to the streets, know, I've seen you, Dalia, many, many, many times on the streets in protests over the last few years. And you've often led havdalah ceremonies in the protests in Jerusalem, first in the pro-democracy protests, and then the demonstrations to calling on the release of the hostages. And I think really those havdalah, those weekly havdalah that we have been holding for we held probably three years every week, were something very, very special. And I think that really addressed the very deep needs of lot of Israelis. We've had the Havd al-Lot in Jerusalem and also in Hostage Square in Tel Aviv, and they have become a real thing that people are looking forward to so much so that when we stopped doing the Havd al-Lot at Hostage Square after the return of the hostages last October, people were like... kept coming in like, where are you? We need that. We need this synagogue of the Israeli street as we call it. you know, I want to ask you how did you experience that and what role did those have the lot specifically played for you and for Israel as a whole? Dalia Marx: So in Jerusalem we had to have the lot. Obviously they had a different character a little bit than Tel Aviv because you know, Tel Aviv Josh Weinberg: A different vibe a little bit, yeah. Dalia Marx: and Jerusalem and of course Jerusalem is, no I'm just kidding, know, Tel Aviv it was wonderful too. But as a Jerusalemite. But in Jerusalem we also had a Friday afternoon Ze'akat Shabbat. The cry of Shabbat is like a wordplay on Kabbalat Shabbat. And I led a lot of them and people came and it was really, really touching to see people from from really all streets of the Jerusalemite audience, Orthodox, sometimes ultra-Orthodox, secular, students, young, old, people really needed it. And I think our visibility on the streets became very different. And also with the presence of our leader, Rabbi Gilad Kariv, who's a Knesset member, he's a hero in the protest movement. I see him marching in and people are like, you all over, like is, I think we became much more visible in the Israeli public sphere. I mean, I wish we didn't have to be visible in this context. I wish we had a very much more, much happier and joyful circumstances, but given the situation, that was it. I'll also add, you if it's okay that when we were about to start with the machzor, I didn't want to do the machzor. I said, maybe someone else should be. I don't want to be a lady liturgy, although I'm the liturgy professor here in the campus. I wanted someone else to do it. felt like it's very, but then, I said, you I'm going to be at the committee, right? And someone else can do the, but then October 7th happened and I started seeing the pictures of the kibbutzim in the Gaza envelope who were moved to other places. in the center, how they used our sidur for Kabbalot Shabbat and how it touched them, people who really lost dear ones and lost their homes and really were exiled in their own country. And how the sidur gave them solace and comfort. And I said to myself, if this is something that I can do, I'll do the machzor. And I called the Josh Weinberg: Wow. Dalia Marx: head of the Maram, which is the equivalent of the CCR in Israel, I said, you know, if it's still open, I'll do it. And she said, yeah, of course. Rabbi Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Dalia Marx: Ayala Sam was, yes, of course, you can do it. I think that's a way, the liturgy is a way really to the heart of a lot of people. I think what you do in Iraq is very important. But I think we also have to bring a lot of content. You also do that, right? A lot of positive content, sources, podcasts, sessions, books. a lot of good content to the Israeli society. And it, of course, it requires means, it requires a lot of people, and we don't always have that, but we try. Josh Weinberg: And I think we should also just give a quick shout out and a word of kavod and honor to all of our Israeli reform rabbis who really played a critical role in terms of their pastoral care, whether it's going out to the different hotels that we're hosting displaced people or just dealing with their own communities, especially in the South and the North. And the text that they used, of course, the C-Doer and just their training played a pivotal role, think, for so many people and helped them through this really difficult moment that could be still ongoing. So really, Kola Kavod. Yeah. Yeah, please. Dalia Marx: I wanted to say another thing, Josh, if I can, one of the things that surprised me, and that actually began with COVID, was the lowering of the walls between the denominations. Yes? Josh Weinberg: Hmm Dalia Marx: I'll give you an example. The first week of the first closure in COVID, 2020, I think it was March 12th or something like this, Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dalia Marx: an initiative that someone had online to have... prayers services online three times a day and they called it Anan Kvodecha which in English means the cloud of your glory because it was on the cloud and people really you know in times of troubles you really need to pray but you cannot gather together because it was the pandemic. People came from really all the range maybe not ultra-orthodox but all the rest and we had traditional and egalitarian prayers. It began in March 2020 and seven years later, six years later, how much is it? Six and a half years, we're already in the middle of the seventh year. We continue with that. We have three services a day on weekdays, not on Shabbat. With this Anan Kvodecha community that it takes place on a cloud. No jobs, no rabbis, no salaries, no payroll, nothing. People volunteer and they do it willingly and we also take turns in teaching the Talmud, the daily teaching of the Talmud. Josh Weinberg: Mm, that's how I page, Dalia Marx: And it's beautiful and you see people from all denominations. I think this is another thing that we see in Israel. You can see two streets. One street is the people who seek to be more pluralist and open to modernity, to gender equality, to justice, just treatment of our Palestinian neighbors, et cetera. And one side that becomes more more closed and right wing and stringent in their way of treating converts and LGBTQ, etc. And I think this is a great thing that our coalition in a way grew and we can really talk about a lot of groups within the Jewish people. Yesterday we had a... Josh Weinberg: Yeah. And I think, I Orly Erez Likhovski: That's it. Josh Weinberg: was just gonna say, think the Habd al-Lot are a perfect example of that is, people Dalia Marx: Yes, yes. Josh Weinberg: came from all walks of society. I remember standing next to a Haredi Jew and a Dalia Marx: Hmm? Josh Weinberg: young Israeli scantily dressed with lots of tattoos, you know, standing, staying arm in arm, you know, swaying together and that's good. Orly Erez Likhovski: And I think we don't hear about that a lot, Because usually the extremists are the loudest, right? And those are like beautiful initiatives. I haven't heard about this. So that's like news to me and it's amazing. You know, maybe we should mention that actually one of the lists that was submitted to the Knesset is a new list of more modern Haredim that have for the first time Haredi woman, right? Dr. Nachum Yaffe, which Dalia Marx: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: is like amazing, right? those things happen too, you know, we hear about the catastrophes and not enough like celebrating the positive changes and processes that are happening. Yeah, yeah, so that's beautiful. Should we talk a little bit about Shuva? Josh Weinberg: Yeah, I think they're called the tzibur al-kharedi, right? the Kharedi public. Yeah. I w I, yeah, I want to focus on really what I think to be is the central theme of these holidays, you know, really starting on the first of Elul and going through Yom Kippur. I think you taught us even, that you can, you know, seek tshuva through the end of Simcha Torah, you know, almost the end of Tishrei. And tshuva is hard. both to forgive and to ask for forgiveness, I think can be really hard. And I'm feeling wherever I go in the Jewish community here in North America, and I think it's important to recognize, right, South America, Europe, all over Australia, and in Israel, that there's a lot of anger, a lot of tension and a lot of resentment and a lot of built up feelings, you know, especially towards whether it's political leaders to religious extremists, to people who we see have caused serious damage. Orly Erez Likhovski: We have good reasons for anger. Dalia Marx: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Right, is, anger can be totally justified, right? And I hope we channel that in a productive way, of course. So Dalia, tell us about Chuvah a little bit. And you've written a lot about it and both in terms of our individual selves and how do we let go and release some of that anger. And how can a society do Chuvah at a moment like this? And what would it look like for sort of Israeli society to do, to do a process, to go through a process of Chuvah? Dalia Marx: When you talk about releasing the anger, I'm not sure I'm talking about releasing the anger. I think we should think about channeling the anger, right, in a positive way. don't think Josh Weinberg: Mmm, yeah. Dalia Marx: we, as you said, Oli, we have a good reason, we have very good reasons to be angry. We should also be very grateful and happy, but we can also be and should be very angry, and we have to channel our anger toward the right way. I think one of the problems in our among our people is that we really do try to take seriously the demand to be pluralistic and to accept everyone and everything. And actually we don't have to do that because some things are so, it's abomination, right? What happens in the West Bank right now by settlers is abomination. And it's done in the name of Judaism. And we have to, in a very moderate and legal and loyal and faithful way, we have to be very extremely loud about it and say that it's not acceptable. On the contrary, think the voices Rabbi Josh in Israel, they talk about releasing the anger. I'm sure that's not your intention. I know that it's not your intention, but all the people who talk about the ahdut, the unity, the unity Josh Weinberg: my gosh. Yeah. Dalia Marx: rhetoric, I don't need to tell you. What does it mean, this rhetoric? It means just shut up. and just let things happen. Josh Weinberg: If I had a shekel for every time someone says to me, if you would just give up on everything that you hold dear and holy to you for the sake of unity, for you know, that would be great. You I think you should just. Yeah. Right. And it happens Orly Erez Likhovski: And so it's always just one side, right? One side. Dalia Marx: It's only one one way streets. Absolutely. It's only one way street. Josh Weinberg: to us in the liberal world, you know, so often, so often that Dalia Marx: Mm-hmm. Josh Weinberg: we're asked to just, know, for the sake of unity and, you know. Dalia Marx: Right? Orly Erez Likhovski: So you're saying we obviously those people like we shouldn't forgive, but we should and we should channel the anger, for instance, for, know, activism, right, to bring about political change. But we I guess we should find a place in our heart to, you know, to do some to vary to forgive some people that we think we can forgive them. Dalia Marx: Yeah, yeah. I want to give you an example. I live in Jerusalem. You mentioned that I'm the 10th generation in this city. My children, none of them is the 11th generation in Jerusalem. All of them live in the Tel Aviv area, right? One in Modiin, one in Tel Aviv, one in Rishon. They're not continuing. We lived here through the Turk, the Ottomans and the British and they lived. Jerusalem is tough. Jerusalem is difficult. My neighborhood, the French Hill in Jerusalem, used to be a symbol of coexistence of Jews of all denominations, also Arabs, and also diplomats. And now we have a surge of ultra-orthodox families who change the fabric of our neighborhoods. All the pluralist, or secular as they are called, kindergarten are closed and given to the ultra-orthodox. pluralist families will not come to my neighborhood anymore because they can't send their children, they don't have education for their children. So when I go out of my home, sometimes I feel angry. I have to say, I look at this young ultra-orthodox mother with the stroller, with the two babies there, and I feel angry with her. And I don't want to be angry with her because she didn't do anything bad to me. I don't want to be angry with the people. I want to be angry with the leaders. I want to be angry. with those who enable them to live the way they do. That is to say, not take part of the responsibility for everything that happens here, not serving, just taking from the... Have you seen the Odyssey? Have you seen it? So I just saw it last week in the beautiful IMAX in Jerusalem. Orly Erez Likhovski: Odyssey, Josh Weinberg: Odyssey, yeah. Yeah Wow, I Heard it was a book first. Is that true? It was Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: Yeah Dalia Marx: But you know, the soothers, the people who just launch it, take from the state pantries and they just Josh Weinberg: Mm. The coffers, yeah. Dalia Marx: exploit everything. I'm angry with that, but I don't need to be angry with, I should not be angry with this young ultra-orthodox mother. And this is something that I really think we have to distinguish in our minds. And a few hours from now, now that we talk here, We're going to have our, as I said before, the slichot event here at the HUC. And one of the songs, one of the prayers that they're going to sing is Ad Rabah. I'm sure you know it by Rabbi Eli Melech of Lijansk. And he says, Ad Rabah, may it be so that we see the zhuchut, we see the merit, we see the good aspect in the other person and not just their fault. Yeah, it was beautifully new music that was composed by a young... composer Tom Zilberstein who happens to be my son. Sounds familiar. Yeah, but this Josh Weinberg: I was gonna say, Tom, that sounds familiar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dalia Marx: concept, I take it very seriously. We should do that, but we should not give up the anger and our protesting against everything that needs to be changed. Orly Erez Likhovski: interesting. Josh Weinberg: But how do you approach the concept of tshuva and slicha, and nikhila that we have in our liturgy and sort of this directive or this command to forgive and to move forward? And how do you do that when you see an individual, but as you gave the example, you can't ask for her to do tshuva or to repent or to... to ask for forgiveness. So Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, no, right. Josh Weinberg: how do we do that on a broader level? How do we fulfill our obligation as we approach these chagim to do that and to deal with our anger? Yeah. OK. Yeah. Dalia Marx: distinguish between Chuvah and Slicha. Chuvah is really between us and our soul or us and God, depends on our Josh Weinberg: There you go. Dalia Marx: personal theology. Chuvah comes from the very basic Josh Weinberg: you Dalia Marx: notion that makes Judaism such a positive and such an optimistic, full of hope, religion and culture, right? We believe that we can return. The idea of Chuvah is Lashuv, to go back to the original place and the original place is beautiful and it's pure. One of the first blessings we say every morning, as you know, is Elohai neshamah she natata biteorai. My God, the soul that you have given me is pure, right? Maybe throughout the day I kind of miss the mark and I do bad things, I stain this beautiful, pure soul, but originally it is pure. And I think one of our obligations is really to go back to the sources and to look for this pure place in our souls. And they believe that you can do it, right? This is really the very positive nature of Judaism, that you can really go back to that point. then you should. think one of the things that you see in Israel, and I also see it among my North American friends and also in Europe, yesterday there was a big win of the right wing, like the extreme right wing, the IFD in Germany, Josh Weinberg: F to Dalia Marx: is that we don't even allow ourselves to hope anymore, to have the tikvah, to have the hope. And I think part of the tshuva is to remind ourselves that it can be different and does it have to be different. That is Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Dalia Marx: tshuva for me. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's beautiful, Josh Weinberg: I love that. Dalia Marx: Forgiveness is something else. We have to forgive ourselves. Maybe we have to forgive God. And we have to do our best to forgive people who wronged. I really try to do it in my personal life. think in my, know, I just turned 60. I think there's one individual Orly Erez Likhovski: Is that what you're doing? Josh Weinberg: Mazatov. Dalia Marx: person that I cannot forgive. But all the other people that I come across and, you know, old grudges, small and big and angers and hurt and wounds, I really do my best to forgive everyone. that I can and to accept also, expect also to be forgiven. To change what I can change in my life. It's not a one-time thing. Our soul is something very sticky about it. It's not like you can really make a change and to reborn someone else as it is in some Christian denominations and you're a completely new person. No, we know we have our things and our things our faults, our not so strong sides are with us and sometimes they get even stronger. Exactly, exactly. But if you Josh Weinberg: I mean, that's why we'll have Yom Kippur again next year too. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Dalia Marx: do the work diligently and seriously, not say, okay, there's always an, as we say in Hebrew, we have another chance to improve our grades at the university. If we Josh Weinberg: Yeah, A second opportunity to, you know. Dalia Marx: do it, I think we're okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: it's really, I love how you framed this Chuvah thing about finding the hope within us. And that is sort of the process of Chuvah. And this in and of itself is both the retrospective, but also really helps us looking forward and bring, give us strength to actually continue in very, very difficult circumstances. And I think that's really powerful. Like I'm taking this with me to the holidays and thank you for that, Dalia. It's amazing. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. so Dalia, you know, as we're concluding our conversation here, which has been really uplifting and, and, and really wonderful to speak with you. If you were giving a drusha or if you were giving a sermon this year, what is going to be your message, to your congregation and to the, yeah. Yeah. Dalia Marx: can tell you what I'm going to say tonight. At our sli-chuan, I'm going to be the host of our event. And tonight, in a few hours, we're going to begin the third day of creation, according to our tradition, the 27th of Elul. And in this day, it is said that the water gathered into one place. And the land was revealed. The land was showed. And I want us to have the... Josh Weinberg: you Dalia Marx: Yikavu HaMayim, the gathering of all energies toward, you know, a strong place that can really make a change, that can really quench the thirst of all the thirst types, types of thirst that we had throughout the years and may the land be shown so we can really see. the creation of the world and really be part of the creation of the world, right? And remember the word Yikavu also has to do with Tikvah. Josh Weinberg: you Dalia Marx: And to remember the Tikvah, Al Tishkach Etatikvah said Noh Mishemer, another very important Israeli poet. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yes. Dalia Marx: Sometimes we tend to forget the hope and Jews went through really difficult situations throughout history, no need to remind you of that. And we, you know, we prevailed. We're still around and we will continue. And God willing, things will change in a meaningful way, in a very positive way, very, very soon, hopefully. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, Dalia, with this optimistic conclusion of our talk. think we need a lot of hope and I think we can find it in the text and in our prayers. This is something that we're going to take with us to the High Holiday prayers. We thank you for everything that you have been doing, for your immense... Dalia Marx: I thank you for the wonderful and important things you do for our people and for our country. Orly Erez Likhovski: I would thank you and really for your immense contribution for Jewish liturgy. I think it's really, especially at these times we find it so uplifting and I am going to be at the slichot event this evening. So you sort of spoiled your... So really Josh Weinberg: Hahaha Dalia Marx: much. Orly Erez Likhovski: thank you for that. And it was really a pleasure having you with us on the podcast. Dalia Marx: Keep the good work! Shana tova! Orly Erez Likhovski: And yeah, conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep the conversation going. Josh Weinberg: And to stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, make an engaging post on social media, leave a five-star review. Maybe something like, after listening to the Pluralist podcast with Dahlia Marx, I realized that I can really find the beauty in Tuva, and I can separate that from asking for forgiveness. And all of these things exist within Jewish tradition as well, and I have to find my own. But you don't have to use that word for word. You can write your own. and send this to someone who should be part of this conversation. Also, this is a great opportunity to begin the new year by sponsoring an episode of the Pluralist podcast. Maybe a great way to honor an anniversary, a birthday, or even the beginning of the year 5787. And we look forward to hearing from you and to sharing more podcasts in the future. Shana tova to everyone. Tov dar hava. Orly Erez Likhovski: Shana tova, bye bye.