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I Got Caught Smuggling Kilos Across the Boarder In Mexico · Recovering Out Loud

0:00
Nothing added up. But so then after I got
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arrested, it was 2 1/2 years on house arrest and really coming
0:05
to terms with how like my substances had got me there.
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I mean, I everything else was kind of a surprise, but I knew
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that I had to address something like it was like, come on, Like
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I'm not blaming this guy. I'm not blaming the system.
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I blamed him for a bit. I was mad.
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But then I was like, no one's going to fix this but you.
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And it was really fucking annoying just sitting in
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emotional anguish for a year and a half because that wasn't me.
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So that was like weed was taking away my personality being in
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that state. Yeah, they always say resentment
0:34
is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies,
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right? Like, hi there, welcome back or
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welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the show where we get
0:44
real about mental health and addiction.
0:46
I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is
0:49
struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for
0:53
help. Send me a message on all social
0:55
media platforms at Recovering Out Loud Pod or by e-mail at
1:00
recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com. You are no longer alone.
1:21
What motivated me to start the podcast?
1:24
You know, actually, I actually love when people ask me
1:26
questions. Come on here because, you know,
1:29
you have to do a lot of listening when you start up.
1:30
So I learned something. If you like talking, don't start
1:34
a podcast because it's all about listening, right?
1:36
I love to talk. So I've learned to really listen
1:39
through this journey and like, really pay attention to, I don't
1:44
know, I guess feelings in what people are talking about and
1:46
like how I can relate because your story, as we'll find out,
1:49
is clearly a lot different than mine.
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But I guarantee you, you're going to say things today that
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I'm like, oh, yeah, like, I get that.
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I get that feeling. I get that.
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Like, that makes sense to me, right.
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And then centered around, you know, consequences and drugs and
2:05
the consequences of drugs and the consequences of my actions
2:08
and stuff like. That right on drugs.
2:10
Yeah, exactly. And I always, you know, I will
2:12
answer your question, I promise. But I like to talk.
2:15
I I always say this is like someone, you know, when someone
2:19
ever says to me, like, man, it's not fair, you know, like it's
2:22
not fair. Life's not fair.
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I had a counselor once say to me if life was fair, we would all
2:27
be dead or in jail, right? Like right now.
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And it's true because my actions, like if you look at my
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life on paper, I should have been dead many times.
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I should have been in jail many times.
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But I don't know why for some reason I managed to today get
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through that without the consequences like that tomorrow
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if I pick up, I don't know. I don't know what'll happen.
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I'll probably end up somewhere else.
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So to answer your question, what started me, I, I was in
2:52
treatment this last time in January, 3rd time in treatment
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and I was again on my knees. Like just drugs had brought me
3:02
and myself had brought me to a place where I was like, how the
3:05
fuck did I get here? How did I like, how did I get
3:09
here? I had eight years clean and
3:10
sober, almost eight years. And I chose to take my will back
3:14
and do things my way. And you know, ADHD medication is
3:18
the one thing that I can control.
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Like that was my thought pattern, right?
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Like, I'm gonna do this differently.
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I'm going to fix this, I'm going to fix it and I'm going to do it
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properly this time. I'm going to take it as
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prescribed. And we probably both know how
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that ends up. Like, no, I'm and then before I
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know it, I'm doing new drugs, I'm doing benzos, I'm smoking
3:34
meths, doing all these things. So I'm in treatment this last
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time. And there's this guy in there.
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I love him to death. Will he had a podcast and he's
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talking about how much he loves it.
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And I'm like, man, I've always wanted to do that.
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And he's like, do it like straight, like didn't even fuck
3:49
around. He's like, you should do it.
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And that gave me a little bit of hope because we would watch his
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on YouTube and and I was like, man, like I could do this right.
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And I love listen well, I love talking.
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I thought that it was going to be about that.
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But I also love hearing people's stories.
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And I love podcasts. Like I really love podcasts.
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I listen to the. You have a good podcast voice
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too. Thanks.
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You, you have to get over that first, Like same with social
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media, but you have to get over the initial like cringiness of
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your own voice, right? And then you notice.
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It's like, oh I know I recorded 2 songs in prison.
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Like I wrote and recorded 2 songs as part of the music
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program. What kind of music?
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It was just like pop songs. Like one of them, one of them
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was like a ballad. Like with this whole music
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program, they had a professional come in and teach you how to do
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music. And then I like listen to my
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songs. I was like, you get like the ick
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and. Then you're never again, right?
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Oh, man. I'm gonna ask you something,
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Emily. Thank you for coming down, by
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the way. I appreciate it.
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Welcome to Recovering Out Loud. If you, if, if somebody could
4:44
get what do you want people to get out of your story?
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Like what? What do you hope that people get
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out of your story? That anyone can come back from
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any horrible situation in their life if they just take ownership
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of it. So many times people just want
4:58
to take the victim mentality and blame everyone else.
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And yeah, you know, I did that in the beginning, but that
5:02
doesn't get you very far at all. So you don't have to go to
5:05
prison to necessarily make a comeback.
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And you're going to have to make more than one comeback in your
5:08
life. I'm just like waiting for my
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next thing that like at least I know that I have now I have the
5:15
the tools and the skill set to be able to kind of get out of
5:17
that, even if it takes a long time.
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You know, we go through things every year, almost every week
5:21
that are hard to get out of. But the second kind of build a
5:23
foundation of like knowing how to get out of it.
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And sometimes you can't rush a comeback takes time, right?
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So. This like resilience, right?
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Yeah, because I don't like that word.
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It's like, so I don't know, I just feel like it's so I guess I
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haven't had a word. Yeah.
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OK, OK. Like.
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It's like rah rah rah for me, like.
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Healing or I'm trying to think. It's cutting the bullshit.
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Yeah, yeah, cutting the bullshit.
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Own your shit, cut the bullshit, own your shit and move on.
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And then try to help others at the same time.
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And I guess that's kind of like how you build resiliency.
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It's not just a, it's a great word for like a lot of people.
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It's just not a word for me so. I I totally understand, yeah.
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I want to talk about, like, what was your childhood like?
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Do you want to talk about a little bit about what growing up
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was like in your house and your experiences?
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I had a bowl cut so. Great start.
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What were the 90s? 90s.
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Bowl cut. Yeah, honestly, great, great
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parents. Two.
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I was a middle child of three daughters.
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We're all three years apart. Pretty close family.
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You know, we did all the normal things, went to church.
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Church was part of our life. Although I didn't behave very
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well in church, my dad had to incentivize us with timbits for
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good behavior. I started learning more about
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the lessons of church like when I was like a little bit older,
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but we did all that. I was in like a lot of clubs
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past played a lot of sports because I had a lot of energy
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and I was always a learner. And then elementary school was
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kind of where like people started being mean to me.
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And so I kind of just became an introvert.
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I mean, everyone goes like it could be like, oh, I was Billy.
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That's why I went to prison. No, like it's crap.
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So like everyone goes through shitty experiences as a
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childhood child is childhood is just childhood.
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You know? Some like, I guess for me,
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becoming an introvert and like and then also not knowing how to
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socialize kind of led to my drug use though for sure 'cause I
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don't know how to talk. So in high school I was like,
7:11
well I'm just going to get a Colt 45 and 2 Zig Zags.
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Baby, that's all I need. Yeah.
7:18
Oh, man. So what?
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What do you think that like, do you want to explain a little bit
7:22
more about what the alcohol and drugs did for you in the
7:25
beginning? In the beginning, it was the key
7:28
to socialization, the key to meeting people.
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I was pretty shy, you know, and I did feel like kind of a bit of
7:34
an outcast and then the like kind of the I did a lot of
7:39
heavy. Well, grade 9, I wouldn't say I
7:41
did heavy drugs. I smoked weed.
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I didn't even like weed. I don't know why I.
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Smoked it, I was. Like what am I doing?
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I'm like greening out at school like and and it didn't, it made
7:50
me the opposite of like what I wanted to be like.
7:52
It just made me more awkward. Yeah, I never liked weed and I
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never heard it said said this, but it's so true.
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Said like this. Like I always hated weed because
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it like took away my personality completely.
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And I was like, yes, that that was me too.
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Right, Yeah. Whereas alcohol, it brought it
8:06
out a little bit more and then cocaine just helped me stay out
8:10
like a little bit later. And MDMA I really liked in high
8:12
school, but then I was like obviously acting out and my
8:16
parents were sick of it. I was, I went from like being a
8:18
really nice kid, you know, I was very friendly.
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I was really happy. I, I was always planting trees
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and like volunteering, like, you know, just generally happy.
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But then it was kind of those troubling years and later, later
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on, on an elementary school and then high school that I know
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some would say it's pretty normal teenage things, but
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obviously I took it a bit too far.
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Yeah. And so like what happened?
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What was the moment where it it went too far and and you kind of
8:43
needed to make a change or realized that it wasn't working
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for you anymore? Well, I knew that in high school
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I had this little tactic. It was called strategic
8:51
procrastination. So I.
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Knew that. Go on, I love this.
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So I knew that if I, even if I got like crap grades in grade
9:00
9:00 and 10:00, as long as I got good grades in grade 11:00 and
9:02
12:00, I could get into university.
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And so I knew that when I want to turn it off, I could turn it
9:06
off and turn it back on again. And that's exactly what I did.
9:09
I got into the University of Guelph.
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I want to go in for business. My, my math grades weren't good
9:15
enough because I didn't want to take calculus like it was, I
9:18
just didn't want to take it. I was like, screw it.
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And then I couldn't get it. I also loved like nutrition and
9:22
stuff. So I was always into like
9:23
exercise and fitness and all that, but then my chemistry
9:26
wasn't good enough. Despite the fact that I had this
9:28
like really nerdy guy that I got to do my homework, I still.
9:33
Classic sounds like Mean Girls. Who's actually really, really
9:36
nice. So I ran into him like on the
9:39
bus like a couple years ago and I was like, thanks.
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For doing all my. Homework.
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Yeah, it was great. It was very nice dissecting pigs
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and all that stuff. Oh no, I think it was biology.
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That was grade 11. That was different classes I.
9:52
Remember that? But yeah, so then in grade
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eleven, grade 12, I just got my grades up, went to university.
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So I think the turning point number one for me was actually
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in university when I got a DUI. Like I was drinking, driving,
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and I couldn't figure out how to stop.
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I didn't know why I couldn't stop.
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And I deliberately drank and drove in front of like a police
10:09
officer so that I'd get pulled over so I could stop.
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It's like I sabotage myself. I'm getting goosebumps as you
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say that. Sorry to cut you off, but like,
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it's, it's 'cause that happened to me too with benzos, where I
10:19
would do benzos, get in the car and then I would go to my
10:21
parents' house for no reason. And I today I see it as like a
10:25
subtle cry for help kind of subconsciously, right?
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It's like, although I didn't really want to go and get help,
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my body and my my soul maybe I don't know, it was like help me,
10:34
right? But I don't know how to ask for
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help. Yeah.
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So if you show up at your parents house high on benzos,
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that's a good way to to show that you're hurting.
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Yeah. My dad tells me I repeated the
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same story like 6 times and there my words like this.
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And so yeah, that was that was my thought on it anyways.
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Yeah, sorry. Oh no, that's interesting.
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You got to talk too, you know. Yeah, I mean.
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Conversation. It's.
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Not a model. It's about you, Yeah, But yeah.
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So you, you purposely. Yeah.
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And what happened after? That because I knew that like I
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knew that it was wrong and it was bad, but I still want that
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booze kicked in. I couldn't stop.
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And so I was like, what is it going to take when you get
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caught? Because I knew that it was
11:13
selfish, but I was still doing like these things for God knows
11:17
what reason. Like I don't know, like I just
11:19
could not. It's because I had this my
11:21
parents car. So I thought it was going to be
11:22
cool driving around like I don't know, like anyway, so I did the
11:25
back on track program and luckily I got caught in the best
11:27
way ever. You know, I got pulled over,
11:28
plead guilty. No one got hurt and like but why
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I chose that tactic when it could have been way worse I
11:34
don't know. But after that day, it's like I
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never never did it again. What's back on track program?
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It was this mandatory program that you had to take like after
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you get a DUI. So you can either you everyone
11:45
has to take it. But for me, because I was still
11:47
in university, I didn't even have a car.
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So they're like, oh, you can put the the breathalyzer in your
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car. Oh, yeah, OK for a year.
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But the, the program itself was just like a program my dad had
11:55
to take me to like sit in a circle and it was like
11:58
educational. But then they're like, you can
12:00
take the, you can have this thing in your car for a year, or
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you can just wait another year after your license has been
12:06
suspended and have no thing. So I was like, well, I don't
12:09
have a car anyway, so I just took the two year suspension and
12:12
it was, yeah. And then so then after that you
12:16
did that stop like you're drinking and using and then
12:19
like, how did that what what ended up?
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Happening. That stopped my drinking and
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driving, and then I was like, Oh my God, I never want to be this
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drunk. And that's when the cocaine
12:25
started. Stimulants, so I didn't want to
12:28
be that drunk person, but I still wanted to go out.
12:33
So I graduated, you know, like it was wasn't it was pretty tame
12:36
in university, honestly, because it was expensive and I was
12:39
couldn't afford it. I think we did like more Molly
12:41
than anything else. But I graduated with honours,
12:42
you know, I did everything I was supposed to do.
12:44
So I didn't see really anything as a problem.
12:46
And and the DUI was definitely a problem, but every all the other
12:49
times I was just doing what everyone else is doing.
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So I wouldn't say it was catastrophic behaviour, but it
12:54
was in 2013, one of my parents got a divorce and it was really
12:57
hard on the family. That's when I was living in
13:00
Toronto. I had my own business that I was
13:02
on my own schedule. And quite frankly, I was pretty.
13:05
I was drinking everyday. Like I lived in Liberty Village
13:08
and trying to kind of cope from this thing that's going on, but
13:11
also putting my energy somewhere, right?
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And big cities are very easy places to hide addiction.
13:17
So no one cares how many drinks you have.
13:19
Who knows, right? And cocaine's nothing.
13:22
It's like, oh, let's do right. It's not like you're going off
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and hiding doing it. It's.
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Yeah, everyone's like a lot. I used to think everyone was
13:29
doing it, but a lot of turns out a lot of people don't.
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But I mean, the people you start to hang out with, it's just,
13:34
yeah, it becomes a norm, right? And I, I don't, I don't know
13:37
about you, but I always looked for, you know, I've heard the
13:40
term lower companions. I don't really like that term,
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but like people that were quote UN quote worse than I was
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because it made me feel better about how bad I was and where I
13:48
was at. So people that maybe had
13:50
professions that were not as good as I was, quote, UN quote,
13:54
right. Or people that were doing harder
13:56
drugs than me. And yeah, you start to frequent.
13:59
I love that. It's like in a big city, it is
14:01
really easy to kind of just blend in and hide and you start
14:05
ending up, I mean, at least for me, like I was started finding
14:07
out these new after hours and booze cans and places where you
14:11
could do drugs openly in, in establishments.
14:13
And I loved it. Like I thought it was amazing
14:16
that all these people were, you know, headed down the same path
14:19
as me, 'cause I knew same thing like you.
14:21
I knew it was not good for me, I knew it wasn't sustainable, but
14:24
I couldn't get out of it for. So long like I need it to be
14:27
extreme, whether it's a behavior or a consequence.
14:29
Yeah, black or white? Yeah, all in.
14:32
And I mean, I think that's what ultimately leads you to
14:35
entrepreneurialship. And so do you want to talk
14:38
about, like, the journey between getting help, maybe going into,
14:42
like, how did you end up in prison?
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I end up in prison because when I was going through all the
14:45
stuff with my family, I met someone through my work who was
14:48
sober and had gone through it before.
14:50
We did some business together. We were pretty close.
14:52
Like you'll see some people say I was your boyfriend.
14:54
He wasn't that like we were just very close.
14:56
We had this love for each other, but it wasn't like this big
14:58
sexual thing. So I don't know where people got
15:00
that term boyfriend because I think in my legal paper will
15:02
work. That's what they decided he was
15:04
to me when he wasn't. So anyway, we go on this trip
15:08
and then three days into the trip, he's like to do really
15:11
things. This is all fun and games.
15:12
We're here to work. And then it all kind of like
15:18
came back to me because like a couple days before he just came
15:20
over to my apartment and he's like, hey, like I want to take
15:23
you on this trip. But there's something I got to
15:24
ask him like what he's like, well, do you want to make some
15:26
cash or bring drugs back? And I was like, what the fuck?
15:28
Like absolutely not. Like I traveled a lot my life.
15:31
I lived in Indonesia. I worked for the Ministry of
15:33
Affairs, I volunteered all around the world.
15:35
And so like, my passport was really valuable to me.
15:38
And the sense that someone was thinking that I would do that or
15:42
I wanted to do that, I was making money.
15:43
I didn't need money, so I was so pissed.
15:46
So I was like just cute get like, and it came to me as a
15:48
shock because this this person that was sober, that was like
15:50
helping me do like little things like walk my dog.
15:53
It was like those little things, all these big grandiose
15:55
gestures, but things to help you like just get to the next day.
15:59
Like how did this even come up? Like how did it go from that to
16:03
this? And so I was just pissed.
16:05
And so we kicked him out and then I go out that night and
16:08
he's like, hey, listen, I don't know where that's coming from.
16:10
I'm so sorry. Like like, let's just go on a
16:13
trip and nothing weird hop. And I was like, you know what, I
16:14
believed him. I took that one bad thing that
16:17
happened that day, that weird thing.
16:18
But I then I like reminded myself of all the good things
16:20
that he did. So I was like, OK, I believed
16:22
him. And so like there was that
16:24
question that was proposed to me earlier.
16:25
It's not like I went down there and there was no talk about it.
16:27
Like he had asked me prior and I was just mortified and mad.
16:32
And then but when he asked me like he knew that I was going
16:35
out that night. So he's like, oh, she'll got a
16:36
couple, couple drinks in her and be like, yeah, OK, dress it
16:40
like, and then three days in, I have to get in the car, go to
16:43
this house, got bricks and bricks, cocaine in the walls.
16:46
It's like strapped to my body and I have to wear this really
16:49
ugly ass dress. It's like the covers is the
16:52
drugs, looks like a Kleenex box. It's shoved under my dress.
16:56
And obviously he's like, yeah, I'm in a lot of debt, these
16:59
people. So I guess when he booked the
17:01
tickets, he sent my passport info alongside his 'cause he
17:04
owed money to these cartel people or whoever they were.
17:07
So I just want to go home like I was.
17:09
I was not a good gangster, obviously.
17:13
So I just wanted to go home. And when we got questioned at
17:16
the border, the last question they asked me was like, we're
17:18
going to do a physical search on you.
17:20
So I had to say yes or else I'm not going to lie to a federal
17:22
agent. And then that landed me four
17:25
years in federal prison. So again, owning, owning your
17:29
shit. Why do you think they asked you
17:31
to search like? That's not normal, right?
17:33
Well our body language is way off #2 they're actually tracking
17:36
him. So he had done this trip
17:38
multiple times and they're like who?
17:40
Cause like he had a wife too so they're like that's not his
17:46
wife. He or like an ex-wife or
17:48
something. Like I guess they were like
17:50
separated. I don't know.
17:51
Didn't add up though. Nothing added up.
17:53
But so then after I got arrested, it was 2 1/2 years on
17:56
house arrest and really coming to terms with how like my
18:00
substances had got me there. I mean, I everything else was
18:04
kind of a surprise, but I knew that I had to address something
18:07
like it was like, come on, Like I'm not blaming this guy.
18:10
I'm not blaming the system. I blamed him for a bit.
18:12
I was mad. But then I was like, no one's
18:15
going to fix this but you. And it was really fucking
18:18
annoying just sitting in emotional anguish for a year and
18:21
a half 'cause that wasn't me. So that was like weed was taking
18:23
away my personality being in that state.
18:26
Yeah, they always say resentment is like drinking poison and
18:29
hoping the other person dies, right?
18:30
Like every day, I'm just. Never heard that that one.
18:33
That's a good one. Yeah.
18:34
It's like I'm festering over this every single day.
18:36
And the guy's probably not even thinking about it, right?
18:38
You know, he's not thinking about my resentment or whatever.
18:40
Maybe he is, but he's renting space in my head and I'm the
18:43
only one suffering. I always tell people it's like,
18:44
And trust me, I'm a hypocrite. Like I when I get resentments, I
18:48
forget that quickly. And it's like, oh, don't you
18:50
like. And it's all ego, right?
18:52
Like it's all you versus me. I'm right, you're wrong.
18:56
But it's it's yeah, it's I I love what you said.
18:59
It's like you. It takes away your personality
19:00
because all you're thinking about is the resentment.
19:03
And I always relate it back to it's like being a drug addict,
19:06
too. All you're thinking about is
19:08
getting drugs, doing drugs, you know, acquiring money to get the
19:11
drugs. Then you're thinking about how
19:13
I'm going to survive tomorrow with more drugs.
19:15
And it's like this, how can you be yourself when you're in that
19:18
state of constant planning and, and premeditation, right, 'cause
19:22
I mean, it's very similar. It's like all I'm thinking about
19:24
is how I'm gonna get this guy back, how I'm gonna, you know,
19:27
win, how I'm gonna succeed, how I'm gonna whatever.
19:31
So I can completely relate to that.
19:32
So what did he ended up getting? House arrest.
19:34
He got same amount of time as me, 'cause our lawyers like just
19:37
separated the case and I'm not, I'm not gonna testify against
19:39
him. Pretty obviously I brought these
19:40
drugs over this border. I'm not gonna testify against
19:43
the people that he knows, 'cause.
19:44
I don't even. Know what's true?
19:46
My poor family, they're innocent victims.
19:48
Like I had to drain my savings. I had some savings, but I still,
19:52
they still had to help me. And so they were just like
19:54
Emily, like this is this is kind of like the last straw.
19:57
I'm like, good on them, right? Because if they didn't say that,
20:00
if they didn't give me that, that ultimatum, you know, maybe
20:03
I wouldn't have taken it seriously.
20:04
Yeah, because I did. So you go to prison.
20:10
What was that like? Prison was like, honestly, I was
20:13
ready for it because I saw, I kind of began to reframe prison
20:16
as not just not prison, but like a form of freedom, you know,
20:21
somewhere where I was like a number one.
20:23
It's like rehab, which I definitely needed is I was going
20:26
to see it as educational because I could read as many books as I
20:29
wanted and I took advantage of the library system.
20:32
And I also saw it as a way to like also like get it like in my
20:36
own business degree, like I start to build this idea of this
20:39
business inside. So it's like I went to Business
20:40
School, rehab and took a sabbatical.
20:42
At the same time, I'm not going to spend 50 grand on legal fees
20:45
and have it amount to nothing, right?
20:48
So I was like, I saw this as an investment and that was after
20:50
like being mad for a. Year, I was going to say like
20:52
that doesn't come right away. No, I had to be mad for a good
20:54
year and a half. I breached my bail, got caught
20:56
getting cigarettes, like just kicking and screaming.
20:59
And then it was just like, my lawyer was like, Emily, we know
21:01
that you're a good person, but if you just don't follow these
21:04
rules, like we can't prove that. So that was kind of like the
21:06
turning point. And that's when I was like, all
21:08
right, I started to research where I was going.
21:10
I end up meeting a few people by chance that had been to the same
21:13
prison I was going to like just through volunteering and saw
21:16
these things happen. Like, you go to volunteer
21:18
somewhere and then you just happen to meet someone that had
21:20
been to prison for the exact same thing.
21:22
It's a kind of how like the world works.
21:23
It's crazy. And so I was ready.
21:25
I mean, the universe, God, whatever you want to call it,
21:27
kind of throws people in your life, right?
21:29
And you can either pick it up the signs, or you can ignore it
21:33
completely. Yeah, yeah.
21:36
Interesting. So you're in there.
21:38
Did you get? Did you have to you had to serve
21:40
the full thing or did you get? I served it and so I did like
21:44
the Canadian prison system. If you are a good inmate, which
21:48
I was like, I'm getting out of here, then you are eligible for
21:51
day parole after 1-6 year sentence, right?
21:53
So that's a halfway house. You're eligible for full parole
21:56
after 1/3 and that is living on your own basically.
21:59
So because I had no violent history, all I was good in
22:02
prison. Nothing happened.
22:03
Like I didn't do drugs in prison like IA lot of people.
22:06
And I, I, I have my family and my friends to, to thank for
22:09
this. Because if you don't have
22:10
support in there, it's very hard to find motivation to to change,
22:13
right. But even the people in prison
22:15
that I was in there with were like, great.
22:17
So that's the one who I advocate for everyday, I think, if not
22:19
these menaces and the majority of people in prison are majority
22:24
of women in prison are moms, right?
22:25
And they get caught up. So yeah, served it all, but in
22:28
different ways, yeah. That's awesome.
22:30
I mean, it's, it's amazing to hear that you were able to shift
22:33
your perspective like that. I think a lot of people need to
22:35
hear that that's possible because, yeah, like you said at
22:38
the beginning, everyone's going through shit, right?
22:40
Like, there's people out there right now in prison that maybe
22:44
they just made a mistake, right? Like one mistake in their life
22:46
and they end up, you know, paying the price.
22:50
I've been to prison only once and it was on the other side as
22:54
of today. In in the US, no.
22:56
Here. Oh, what's what's?
22:58
The other side, it was a jail. Like I I brought in, I
23:02
volunteered there too. Yeah, I meant like the.
23:04
Yeah, that's. The other side of the border.
23:06
Yeah, I know. I so like the other side of the
23:08
person. And so I, I was able to sort of
23:12
see and sit down with these guys.
23:15
And I think it really does shift your perspective on people,
23:20
right? And like prison inmates and
23:22
yeah, it's, it's true. Like there's a lot of them that
23:24
want to change. And they, the guys that I was
23:27
sitting down with had a problem with alcohol and they wanted to
23:29
get sober. And it was just amazing to sit
23:31
beside these guys and hear how they were changing their life or
23:34
planning to and they were staying sober and doing all
23:36
these things. Because you mentioned it's
23:38
pretty easy to use drugs and alcohol in prison if you wanted
23:41
to. Right?
23:41
Yeah. Did you find that that that was
23:43
a challenge to stay sober through that?
23:44
No, because I was done. I was like, I'm and that was
23:47
like where my rebelliousness kicked in again, because it's
23:49
like people think it's going to be the end.
23:51
So it's like you can take your rebelliousness and your need for
23:53
prevention turn into something really good or really bad.
23:56
Yeah. So it's.
23:57
But it's harnessing that same energy, right?
24:01
So I was like, no one's going to tell me what the rest of my life
24:03
is going to be. I am going to do this.
24:05
I also didn't necessarily see myself, I think like maybe not
24:09
until recently that I really wasn't an addict.
24:11
I just medicated instead of celebrated.
24:14
So like, that's when I was OK, I can like have a couple drinks.
24:16
I definitely don't. But you can't put yourself in
24:18
environment where there's like piles of cocaine because what
24:20
are you going to do in that environment?
24:21
But I can go out to a restaurant and have a couple drinks and be
24:23
fine. Like I'm not going to go into
24:24
this like downward spiral. That's when people are like, Oh,
24:27
you're an addict for the rest of your life.
24:28
And I was like, well, I don't, I never really saw that.
24:31
And that's actually been a sign of strength for me, a source of
24:33
strength for me because like I didn't give up that control.
24:35
But some everyone's different, right?
24:37
Like my a lot of people I know like they can't.
24:39
It has to be one or the other, feast or famine basically.
24:43
Yeah, that's me. I've tried many times to
24:45
moderate and try backdoors, as I mentioned at the beginning of
24:48
the podcast. And now I'm at a point where you
24:50
can't. It's just like it just take.
24:52
It just took me down. Like every time it took me down
24:55
a road I never saw like I didn't even know existed, right?
24:58
Like it just again, new drugs, hanging out with different
25:02
people that I shouldn't have been hanging out with.
25:03
And then ultimately, at the end of the day, when all is said and
25:06
done, everyone goes home, I'm left with me and I just hate
25:09
myself, right? Like, forget about all the
25:12
outside circumstances. What's going on in here When I
25:15
relapsed was just the word because too, like I saw how good
25:18
life could be sober and completely sober.
25:20
And then I saw how bad, you know, hanging out with the devil
25:23
every night. And I always say that it's true.
25:24
Like I literally felt like I was hanging out with.
25:26
The devil dance with the OR what is that?
25:27
You make a deal with the devil and they always come back to
25:29
collect. Yeah, Yeah, He came back all
25:31
right. Yeah, but yeah, so it's like,
25:34
and, and I'm that's why I'm really happy that you came on
25:36
too, because it's it's, it doesn't have to be about
25:38
complete abstinence for everybody.
25:40
Like everyone's path is different.
25:41
When I came into recovery, I was the guy that was like, Nope,
25:44
you're either in or out. Like I was very hard headed
25:46
about that because again, I have this thing where I think that
25:49
what works for me works for everyone else and you have to
25:52
follow my plan. It's all ego, right?
25:54
I've come a long way since then. And when I started this podcast,
25:57
I really met a lot of people that don't follow the same path
26:00
that I follow and they're happy. So who The Who the fuck am I to
26:04
tell them that has to do they have to recover my way, right?
26:07
It's like whatever works for you works for you.
26:09
And then I started, I started now working with guys and
26:12
coaching and, and therapy and going back to school and all
26:14
these things. And I don't, I try not to come
26:17
out the gate with, you know, you got to do 12 step.
26:19
You got to do that. You got to because like, first
26:21
of all, that makes people run the fuck away because they don't
26:24
like being told what to do. And also that might not work for
26:26
them. Yeah, it might.
26:27
It might, it might not. It works for me and I run.
26:29
Your own race, as they say. So how did you get into your
26:33
business that you have now and how did that happen?
26:35
I see you getting. So that makes me happy because,
26:38
like I can tell, passion is awesome.
26:40
So when I was in prison, I met so many people that were just
26:43
like me, like people that have made mistakes, were so
26:45
misunderstood. Some of it might have been
26:47
financial reasons, some of it might have been like substance
26:49
abuse issues. Some of it might have been
26:50
violence fraud. A lot of it was fraud, actually.
26:55
But everyone that I met in there realized that they did something
26:58
wrong with the people that didn't there.
26:59
There's also so much mental illness, unfortunately, where
27:02
people are just housed together who shouldn't even be in there.
27:06
But we all like talked about like the things that we did
27:08
before prison and the jobs that we had and the passions that we
27:10
had. But how the workforce or like
27:12
the corporate world still condemns you as a person when
27:15
you're done your time, right? It doesn't matter if you did
27:18
your time. You're still, oh, we have a
27:19
record. You can't, you're not
27:20
employable. And I was like, I just didn't
27:21
believe that because I was like, I know that I'm working my ass
27:24
off to prove to myself and other people that, you know, this is
27:27
never happening again. But also taking accountability,
27:30
responsibility and seeing how I not, not not just how I can
27:35
learn, but also how others how what others are teaching me.
27:37
I learned from so many other people in there as well.
27:41
And I also became very grateful for like the family that I did
27:43
have. And I was like, you know what
27:45
popcorn was a popular prison snack.
27:47
Like we'd all make, right? Like different recipes, which
27:49
food like we cooked a lot of our own food 'cause I was in medium,
27:53
'cause I wasn't violent. And yeah, we just talk about
27:56
stories from home. And so home create creat
28:00
creating over food. Food is like a blank canvas for
28:02
storytelling and, and connecting and really unifying everybody.
28:06
So back to the popcorn is it's been one, one of my favorite
28:09
snacks cause part of my addiction, like I don't say
28:12
addictive, whatever it was part of my substance use was
28:15
triggered actually by food issues is concurrent.
28:18
And so I was in prison. I didn't want the food thing to
28:22
come back up again. So I.
28:23
Mean like not eating eating. Disorder.
28:25
Yeah, 'cause. I didn't want I I dabbled with
28:27
that too. Yeah, and I was like, this is
28:28
not, I'm not relapsing in here. I am not 'cause that controlled
28:32
me for 10 fucking years. And I was like, no.
28:34
So like I made sure that I ate like healthy stuff.
28:36
I exercise, which was awesome. And that was so I healed my
28:39
relationship with food while I was inside.
28:41
And then I was like, why don't I start a popcorn company where I
28:43
can employ people have, like, really interesting flavors with
28:45
an interesting mission. And that's to employ formerly
28:48
incarcerated. And that's what it started with
28:50
popcorn kernels and stamps. And I would write letters.
28:53
I read 82 books. We all told, like, told like our
28:57
own stories. And that's when I was like,
28:59
yeah, I want to prove everyone else wrong and prove ourselves
29:02
right. And it's going to be hard, but
29:04
here we are. What's and so the name of the
29:06
company is Comeback Snacks. And So what does your operation
29:10
now look like? Like what is what is it?
29:12
What does that look like? We're in 1500 stores across the
29:15
country. We didn't take investment for
29:16
the first three years, so I bootstrapped all of it.
29:19
But it's all because I worked with the community, I worked
29:21
with the volunteers, I went to the churches, like I, I
29:24
practiced my like storytelling at schools and different places.
29:28
So building up this network. And then I also shared it with
29:32
the local paper, which then it was picked up by the Toronto
29:34
Star. And of course I knew I was going
29:36
to take some heat. Like there's going to be people
29:37
that are just nasty. But at that point it didn't even
29:40
phase me because I was like, I talk like that to myself.
29:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I talked worse to myself.
29:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And.
29:47
And then also like in the system, like the prison guards
29:50
are nice to you, like they treat like crap, you know, so it's
29:52
like you're already used to kind of this.
29:54
It just fuels your fire. I hate that quote.
29:58
Haters are my motivators. But it's, it is kind of true.
30:00
Like you don't want, you don't focus on them like they're your
30:03
motivators. Like again, like that revenge,
30:05
kind of like control. But you're just like, all right,
30:08
fine, that's what you think then see you later.
30:11
And so, yeah, we're, we have 5 flavors and I've employed 15
30:15
people over the course of like 5 years that have all been
30:18
incarcerated. So yeah, wow.
30:21
And so you said 1500 stores. Yeah.
30:23
Oh my God, I know. That's amazing.
30:26
Where do you see it in the future?
30:27
Like, where do you want to bring it?
30:28
What's What's the next thing? Continue to grow in Canada.
30:32
So we're just kind of tapping into different channels that we
30:36
never really imagined ourselves in, like like office snacks.
30:40
We're in a lot of arenas. We't in Scotiabank Arena, we're
30:42
in Rogers Center Bud Stage. I'm working a lot with like
30:47
fundraising divisions, grocery, gas and convenience hotels or
30:50
big one wineries, breweries, beer and popcorn go well
30:54
together and like just events as well.
30:58
So building that up the states, the time will come, but just not
31:01
right now. Just more spread across Canada.
31:04
Yeah, for obvious reasons. Yeah, you.
31:05
Can't go there anyway, yeah. Oh man, that's amazing.
31:12
If you, if you could go back and sort of like change it all and
31:18
and not take the path that you can, whether it's addiction, you
31:24
know, pick, pick a life where it was like not involved with
31:27
addiction. Do you think you would you would
31:28
take that life? I don't I even, I don't even
31:34
know how to answer that because you're only born, you're only
31:37
born once. So how could I like so I think
31:41
it's just in my genes, like it's my energy.
31:43
Like I read all about a lot of entrepreneurs and creatives that
31:45
kind of have these similar habits.
31:47
So if I was to take a different path, I'd have to be born a
31:50
completely different person and I wouldn't want to be born a
31:52
different person, right? So if this where it took me,
31:55
that's where it took me. But because of like the way that
31:58
we are wired to kind of get in and get ourselves into
32:01
situations about our ability to get ourselves out.
32:03
I don't think I'd choose any other life, but I would take
32:07
back like all the times that I hurt my family because they were
32:10
innocent victims in that case, for sure.
32:13
That's what you know, that's what I worked so hard to, to fix
32:17
and to heal. And you know, we're on great,
32:19
great terms now. But again, it's not overnight.
32:21
It's not takes a long time and it has to be a repeated
32:25
behavior. Yeah, trust is built in small
32:27
moments, right? Like overtime.
32:29
Trust is time essentially. And it yeah, we get sober and or
32:33
we get back to whatever come back, we come back and we're.
32:38
See what you did there? Yeah.
32:39
Like that, really. I'm thinking of the name of the
32:42
episode in my head as I talk. It's gotta be something amazing,
32:45
but I'll figure it out. And we expect everyone to be
32:48
healed, right? Or like I'm healed because I
32:51
spent all this time in prison or whatever and you come back and
32:54
it's not the case. Like people need their own time,
32:56
right? They need their own healing
32:58
path. Like we talked about before.
32:59
I think that's one of the hardest things that addicts have
33:02
to accept is that I can't just like you, mom couldn't stop me
33:06
using and drinking, I can't heal you, right?
33:09
It's kind of like this two way thing and it's really hard to
33:13
accept. You know, I talked to a lot of
33:15
parents for my job that are trying to get their their loved
33:18
ones into into treatment. And you can really tell pretty
33:21
quickly, like how far along the acceptance, I don't know,
33:24
ladder. They kind of are with it all and
33:28
trying to tell people the hard, the hardest part of my job with
33:31
talking to loved ones is telling people that they can seek help
33:35
themselves. Well, why do I have to fucking
33:37
change, right? He's the one using and drinking
33:40
like it's not my problem. It's their it's like, no, no,
33:42
you play a part in this whole family dynamic.
33:45
You know, you didn't, you didn't cause the addiction, you didn't
33:48
cause the jail. You didn't.
33:49
No, I'm not saying that, but there's a part here where you
33:53
either enabled or or did something along the way.
33:56
And now there's a part for you to heal too, right, and get your
33:59
own sort of healing. So.
34:01
Because again, you can't fix anyone.
34:04
Absolutely. Like, and I know for me, just
34:05
for my chemical healing, I guess from it's because I'll admit,
34:10
like before I went to prison, I went on a Bender, You know what
34:12
I mean? Like, yeah, the last bang.
34:14
Yeah, yeah. So I was like, I knew that I
34:16
needed, if I went in for a month, it wouldn't have helped.
34:18
I, I knew that I needed at least a year to completely recalibrate
34:23
my brain and my thought process and all about thinking
34:25
chemically and like mentally, mentally, right?
34:28
So that's why I was glad that I was in for that amount of time.
34:31
If I was in for like 3 months, I would have been a little bit
34:33
more nervous because I'm like, I would just, I think if it was
34:35
three months, I still would have been thinking, what am I going
34:37
to do when I get out? I'm not like what can I do now?
34:39
Whereas I knew that I was in for at least a year.
34:41
It's like what can I do now instead of when am I getting
34:44
out? What do you do today when when
34:48
life sort of lifes you like? How do you get through struggles
34:51
today? Is it easier do you think
34:53
because of what you went through or?
34:55
I think you have to allow yourself to be sad.
34:56
The last time I didn't allow myself to be sad, you know,
35:00
because I was, had this business, I was just trying to
35:02
focus on like what I was doing and, and being like a successful
35:06
business owner and like just not wanted to compartmentalize
35:09
anything. And so like now it's like, OK,
35:11
you can compartmentalize, put something over here, be sad
35:13
about it and that's OK. Like you can't dwell on it, but
35:17
you also have to like allow yourself to feel things.
35:19
Whereas before I didn't. I was like, cocaine was Botox
35:22
for the soul. Botox for the soul.
35:25
Yeah. Wow.
35:28
It's almost like yeah, it just completely numbs it like
35:32
whatever, it's a quick fix or whatever.
35:34
I like that. That's good.
35:42
If you could, if you could say something.
35:46
Sorry, I want to say one more thing before I ask you the last
35:48
question because I just remembered it now.
35:49
But I find that, yeah, like, I, that really hit me actually
35:53
today, like allow yourself to be sad because I've spent a lot of
35:57
time not doing that. I, you know, I'll what what
35:59
happens to me is life will happen.
36:01
Something will happen. And I want to fix it right away.
36:05
And I want to jump into whatever I need to do to please whatever
36:08
I want people please or do this, that it's like, no, like, yeah,
36:11
you need to take a second and just like, acknowledge that
36:13
you're human and you're allowed to feel feelings and it's OK.
36:17
But you don't have to dwell in it.
36:18
Like you said. How do you get out of that,
36:21
though? Like how do you get from?
36:23
I don't know, like what does that process look like?
36:27
Well, it starts with anger #1 like first you're mad, you want
36:31
revenge, then you. I just was tired of being sad.
36:36
I was like, I only have one life.
36:37
I don't want to be like this. I hated feeling like that, but I
36:41
knew it was necessary. I know it is necessary.
36:45
Like, obviously if you have a shit couple days and, you know,
36:49
you have to let yourself feel that and make sure you're around
36:51
the right people because some people will tell you to do the
36:53
complete thing that's actually not good for you, right?
36:57
Like sometimes I told the wrong people when I was sad about
36:59
like, that. My family's splitting up.
37:00
They're like, well, aren't you old enough?
37:02
You know? And it's just like, so I wasn't
37:03
allowed to be sad. Yeah.
37:04
Yeah, Right. And so I was like, well, fuck
37:06
you then. Yeah, it's true.
37:08
Yeah. And a lot of those problems come
37:10
from childhood when, you know, if you cry like being a a boy
37:14
growing up in Italian European household, there was a lot of
37:18
times where it was like, like, yeah, you don't really show
37:20
emotions. And that ends up affecting you
37:22
down the road where you're not able to show emotions anymore.
37:24
So I love that. Surround yourself with the right
37:26
people. Yeah.
37:27
And sometimes it's gonna take a while to figure out.
37:29
Sometimes you're gonna surround yourself with the wrong people,
37:31
and then you learn. Yeah.
37:33
And so you're more cautious and you're more careful.
37:34
And that's also a part of learning.
37:36
Yeah. And.
37:37
You know what to look. For and you'll know when you're
37:38
tired of being sad, you'll know you'll be like, screw this, like
37:41
I'm over it now. Then you gotta, you gotta also
37:45
move on and do things like like, I don't know, I love like my
37:48
dogs going to the gym, but I don't surround myself with
37:50
people when I'm going through the sad face that are going to
37:52
make me angry. Go take me back a step, because
37:55
that's the first step, I think. Right.
37:58
Or gossip. Or, you know, yes, people,
38:00
right, The people. Yeah, yeah, you should beat that
38:02
guy. Up exactly.
38:03
Yeah, that. Was dangerous place to be let's
38:05
end with this if you could say something to someone who is
38:10
start trying to start a new venture or company or dream goal
38:15
passion and they're really struggling right now what do you
38:18
say to that person give. Me a call, I'll help them.
38:22
Love it. Yeah, honestly, call me.
38:23
I'm. I'm here to help and I had a lot
38:26
of help building mine. You know, everyone person that I
38:28
wrote a letter to like that's how I built my mentorship
38:30
network. So I'm here to help.
38:33
Yeah, I guess that's it like right.
38:35
Having a good mentor. Yeah, have a good mentor and
38:37
then if I can help you, I'll, I'll introduce you to someone
38:39
who can because I obviously don't know everything.
38:41
Amazing. Yeah, I love that too.
38:43
There's a bit of humility there, too.
38:44
Where can we find you, Emily? Where can we find?
38:48
Popcorn or me? Me.
38:49
Do you? Have like social media like.
38:50
Yeah, at Comeback Snacks is a company one, but my personal one
38:54
where I share more of my own journey is EMS dot O'Brien.
38:56
OK. And I'll write that in the notes
38:58
too, so people can follow along too.
38:59
Yeah. Awesome.
39:00
Thank you so much for coming I. Appreciate for having me had a.
39:02
Great time. Yes, and now you know that the
39:05
the Marshall amp. It's a fridge.
39:07
Yeah, the Marshall amp is a fridge and I'm going to use it
39:10
going forward. Yeah, for non alcoholic
39:12
beverages and and etcetera. Thanks for listening.
39:18
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39:23
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39:27
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39:33
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