Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Tools For Deeper Connection: How To Have Better Conversations with Celeste Headlee— TED's Most-Watched Expert on Communication

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Tools For Deeper Connection: How To Have Better Conversations with Celeste Headlee— TED's Most-Watched Expert on Communication · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Danielle Robe and each week, my guests and I come
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. Have you ever
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: walked away from a conversation and thought, Wow, I actually
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: feel full, like something in you shifted, even though you
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: can't quite explain it. That feeling is real connection, and
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: it's what today's episode is all about. Our guest is
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Celeste Headley, journalist, NPR host and the woman behind one
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: of the most watched TED talks of all time. It's
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: called Ten Ways to Have a Better Conversation, and with
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: over thirty four million views, she's helped redefine how we
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: think about communication. So Leste has spent decades understanding what
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: makes people connect and why so many conversations leave us
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: feeling drained or disconnected. You know that I got into
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: this one. So in this episode, we explore why small
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: talk isn't small at all. She actually changed my opinion
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: on small talk, how to disagree without destroying a relationship,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: how to start a conversation if you just don't know
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: what to say, and why asking better questions could quite
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: literally change your life. She breaks down why connection isn't
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: just a nice to have, it's actually how we survive.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: So the question we're circling today is what if the
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: secret to a more connected, joyful, even longer life it
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: was in a wellness hack or a productivity tool, but
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: just a conversation. It's time to question everything with Celeste Hadley. Celeste,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: when did you first become interested in the art of conversation?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Do you remember?
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, because I had been a reporter and a
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: correspondent for years and then I got a job as
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: the anchor of an NPR show and I had never
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: had to do that job before, not really, And so
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I was started to do research on how to become
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: a better interviewer, because you know, an interview is a
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: formalized conversation, a formalized, time limited conversation. So I started
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: doing research on that. And I think what made me
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: dig deeper is because the advice that I got was bad.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: We had for so long been getting all that advice
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: on you know, like I say in the Ted Talk,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: nod your head, smile, say a hum, mirror your body language.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: I hosted a daily talk show where I could test
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: out every one of those things in my little conversational laboratory, right,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: And so if they said maintain eye contact, I could
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: try that.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: When you're doing a daily show, the amount of practice
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: you're getting in conversation is unmatched.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, it makes it for a great experimental laboratory, right, totally.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: And I found that maintaining eye contact is awkward and
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: makes people feel really uncomfortable. So and that's what I
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: found about almost all the advice that we've been getting
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: for so long, is that it just it didn't work.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: And then I had to do it myself. Right. Then
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I had to go and find the research studies that
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: actually related and then test those out to see what
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: actually worked.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Did you grow up in a conversational family if.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: You call arguing conversation, I mean, yes, there was a
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: lot of talking, but I'm not sure it was a
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: conversational family, because you know, conversations are more about listening
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: than talking. So I grew up in a very verbal family.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, people who knew me when I was younger,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: like my college friends, were like, I can't believe you're
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: now known for conversation because I was the worst, just
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: the worst, I really awful. Oh absolutely, yeah. I was
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: a know it all and interrupted people all the time
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: and got super excited about stuff and would just would
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: keep talking and talking and talking. Oh it was horrible.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: It's just horrible.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Do you think that you are living proof that conversation
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: and asking questions is a learned skill?
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. I mean if I can do it, literally,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: anyone can, you know. Just to break it down to
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: evolutionary terms here, our species has survived through conversation. That's
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: literally how we have always in three hundred thousand years
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: in change made up for our fragility art we're slow,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: we're very easy to kill, you know, we don't have
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: defensive mechanisms like talons or venom or whatever. But the
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: way that we have survived is through conversation and collaboration.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: And I say that to say that every Homo sapiens
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: has a high level of communication and conversational skill, that
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: is generational knowledge. The same way that a dolphin uses sonar, right,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: and a bat uses echolocation, So we start at this
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: extremely sophisticated level, perhaps the most sophisticated communicators on the planet.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: After that. Yeah, a lot of people think it's a
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: talent that some people are born as great conversationalists and
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: some people never will be. But it's really not. It's
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: really a skill that you can practice and learn and improve.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think so too. I've seen it in my
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: own life. I do feel a little bit lucky in
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: the conversation realm because my dad and my grandfather we're
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: expert conversationalists. My grandfather was a professor. I think a
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: lot of time professors are just very well spoken, glib
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: they practice conversations a lot too. So I do think
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: I picked things up as I was growing up. But
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: to your point, I only learned through my job that
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: conversations are really about listening, and that's a huge element
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: that I think we're missing. You mentioned your Ted talk.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: It's one of the ten most watch talks posted on
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Ted's homepage. That's pretty remarkable.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: What does that.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Tell you about the state of our world right now
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: and what people are seeking?
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's really optimistic, right. I mean,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: it means that a lot of people have put some
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: version of how do I improve my conversation skills into the
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: search string? Right, In some way, people make it to
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: my Ted Talk because either someone else has said this
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: is really good, you have to watch it, or they're
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: looking specifically for that. And I think that's really hopeful.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I also think it's really a great sign that a
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: lot of the people who really watch the Ted Talk
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: and have watched it multiple times and have, you know,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: then read the book are younger people. That you know.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Number one, flies in the face of the stereotype that
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: that you know, there's some older people who think, oh,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: young people don't know how to talk to each other,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: they don't have any social skills, etcetera, etcetera, they're buried
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: in their phones. But that's completely not true. A young
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: people are seeking out social connection. Young people have the
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: exact same high level of social skills and conversational skills
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: as any other generation. The only difference. And when I
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: say young people, not necessarily meaning millennials anymore, that's not
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: the young generation.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: I feel personally attack celest but okay, fine.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Gen Z and then Alpha of course, the only difference
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: is that the younger generation is more likely to believe
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: that texting back and forth is the same as a conversation,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: and it very much is not by any measure, and
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: it does not fulfill the inherent need for belonging and
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: community that all human beings have. That literally is such
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: an inherent need that we will die without it. Loneliness
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: will kill you. So that's what makes gen Z and
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: maybe Alpha will see the loneliest generation on record, because
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: they haven't even though they seek out connection, they haven't
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: quite realized that social media does not fulfill that, that
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: texting back and forth or dming or whatsapping or whatever
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: you use, does not fulfill it.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: When I think about the impact of emojis or gifts
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: or memes, I always think of emojis as hieroglyphs, hieroglyphics.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: What are they called, Yeah, hieroglyphics, hieroglyphics, So I don't
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: want to discount them, but it is not the same.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: When I have a really great conversation, I feel so energized,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: so fulfilled. That's the word that you use, fulfilled, And
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: actually I haven't thought about the other word you used,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: which is belonging. Why do you think great conversations? Is
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: there a psychological or even neurological explanation for that feeling like,
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: is there a reason some conversations are more memorable and
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: impactful than others.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to answer this in a couple ways,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: because there's so much evidence I could bury you in
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: evid bury me good. But I'll start with first. Have
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: you ever called up a friend and they say hello,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and you say what's wrong? Yes? That is how quickly
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: some extremely sophisticated and nuanced information is translated to your brain.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Just through this out to some of these laws. Our
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: voices are uniquely evolved and designed to communicate meaning in
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: a way that no written communication, I mean written communication
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: is pretty recent in our history. For most of our history,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: our history, our culture, our knowledge was passed down just
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: through our voices. We got really good at communicating meeting
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: through the sound of your voice, so that if you
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: ask me to do something and I say maybe, that's
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: really different than me going maybe right. Yeah. But I'm
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: glad that you mentioned neurologically because let me tell you
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: about just one particular area of research, and it's a
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: research into a phenomenon that's known as neural coupling. So
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: the original experiment curred at Princeton and Ury Hasen wanted
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: to figure out what actually happens in the brain when
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: somebody really clicks in, Like we know what it looks
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: like in the brain when someone's really listening, right, First
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: of all, it lights up like crazy, like listening uses
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: a huge amount of your gray cells. And so he
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: would bring people in and he would hook everybody up
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: to an fMRI, and he would have some people telling stories,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: real stories from their own lives. And so for one
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: of them, as a young woman, and she's telling the
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: story of her high school prom, which I guess was
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: tragic and awful, like everything went wrong. And then he
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: had everybody come in and listen to her story. And
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: what they discovered they never expected, which was that when
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: the participants began to listen in an engaged way, their
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: brain waves began to move in exact sink with hers
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: exact sink. In fact, sometimes at some points the sink
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: was so exact that the listener's brains anticipated changes in
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: the speaker's brains by a fraction of a second. And
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I just want you to think about this for a moment.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: This is what we tried to replace with emojis. Right,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: nothing against emojis, but that is mind meld. That is
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: the kind of authentic connection, the kind of bond you
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: can career with an complete stranger through the most analog
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: equipment that there is, right, your voice and your ears.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Now there's really similar and parallel research into ASL and
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: the non hearing community, but right now we're just talking
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: about the speaking community. There is no way you can
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: replicate that, replace it with anything else. There is nothing
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: else more sophisticated than what lives in our heads.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you're making me think too. When people pass,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: the first thing that we say is either I miss
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: their smell or I miss the sound of their voice.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: It is so powerful. David Brooks has this quote. He says,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: the real act of building a friendship or creating a
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: community involves performing a series of small, concrete social actions. Well,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: disagreeing without poisoning the relationship. Is there a way that
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: we can learn to disagree better? Because I think there
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: are so many benefits to being friends with people whose
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: opinions you disagree with, even often.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, the first thing is just to understand that
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: you're going to disagree, even with the person you love
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: most in the world. You are not going to tell
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: me you agree on everything. Not true, That is not true.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I don't even want to do you.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: No, of course not. That's so yeah, no, it's boring,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: incredibly boring, But you don't. There's no such thing as
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: two people who are in complete agreement. I mean maybe
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: even maybe a clone, but I would imagine they would
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: disagree also. So that's Number one is just accept that
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: you will disagree and so therefore you're not avoiding disagreement,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: which is what most people do. They're doing everything they
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: can to avoid conflict, except that it's going to happen.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: And because disagreement is going to happen, you're also going
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: to make mistakes. You're going to say the wrong thing.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Accept that, Yeah, you will screw up, they will screw up,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: And think to yourself, Okay, when someone else says the
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: wrong thing, what do I need from them in order
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: to be able to move on? When I say the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: wrong thing? What can I do to make it okay?
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: That's the second thing is prepare for mistakes. And the
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: third thing I will say is stop trying to change
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: people's minds. It's the most ridiculous feudal exercise ever. So
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: we know neurologically speaking, that you can't. We have zero
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: evidence that in a conversation you can change somebody's mind.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Not happening. I mean, I would love to see the
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: person who's going to tell me the story of the
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: last time they were in a real disagreement. I'm not
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: talking about like pineapple and pizza. I'm talking about like
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: a real disagreement and they had a conversation with someone
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: and we're like, you know what, you are completely right,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: and I've been wrong this whole time. I am gonna
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: stop thinking that like it has not happened. And so
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: if you stop going into the conversationtions and making your
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: goal to change their mind, right, then what's the goal?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Why are you having that conversation? Maybe instead of changing
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: their mind, your goal should be Okay, we disagree, Let
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: me learn as much as possible about their point of view.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try to figure it out.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Do you think that we as a country are disagreeing more?
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: And let me preface this question. We hear so often
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: about the tribalism and the divisiveness in our country. When
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I go out into the world. I feel it less
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: than I actually hear about it. And so I'm curious
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: what your thoughts are, because actually your book was written
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: in or released in twenty seventeen, and it's called We
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Need to Talk How to have conversations that matter? And
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I think our country has changed a lot since twenty seventeen.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: So I'm curious to hear if you think we're really
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: hearing each other less or what's going on.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I actually don't think Americans disagree on most things. Okay,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I think Americans agree on a lot of stuff. If
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: you actually look at the policies, I mean we are
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: going to disagree on politics, and by politics, I mean
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: what politicians say and they're talking points when you break
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: it down to the policies Americans. Most Americans think teachers
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: get should get paid more. Most Americans think there should
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: be laws preventing landlords from just increasing rent. Most Americans
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: don't like Mitch McConnell at all. Most people think that
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: the government should forgive medical debt. Most people agree that
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: abortion access should be legal. Most people agree that same
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: sex marriage should continue to be legal. Like there's a lot.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Most people agree on common sense gun safety reform. When
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: you break things down to their most basic level. We
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: mostly agree that's the truth. Even in DEI. The majority
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: of Americans believe that the not DEI the buzzword, but
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: the principles of it, learning to be fair, learning to
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: be inclusive, are important and they want a workplace that
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: values those things. So are we disagreeing more? No? I
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: think we're getting in more arguments because we've bought into
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: these politicians' talking points. And you know what, I've been
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: a journalist now for over twenty five years, Like I guess,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, I am biased. I don't like politicians, any
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: of them. I see how the sausage is made. I
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: know that there's things that they hold back, there's things
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: they fudge the truth on because they're worried about getting
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: re elected. And so I would say, do not trust
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: the talking points, the speech is any of that. Break
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: it down. What are they doing, what do they vote,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: what are their votes on, what's their voting record, what
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: is the plan? And you might find out that you
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: actually support different candidates than you'd expect.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I find that we're having less discussion and more debate,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and I enjoy hearing a debate every so often, particularly
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: like a philosophical debate. Sometimes I think the answer is
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: less important than just having the conversation for the conversation's sake.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: But the debate of it all seems to be an issue.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I guess I come back to listening. I think we're
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: not hearing each other.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just we're listening in order to respond, not
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: in order to understand. Right. You know, I wouldn't use
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: the term debate. I totally understand what you're saying. But
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: I think we're just arguing more. And really what we're
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: doing is just talking more and loudly, because debate. You know,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: my third book, Speaking of Race, is it's called Speaking
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: of Race, but really it's about how to have difficult conversations,
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: any difficult conversation. And in there I interviewed a man
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: who's an expert in the ethics of rhetoric. Schools used
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: to teach rhetoric, which is the study of how we
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: use language to inform or persuade people. Right, And there's rules,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: there's ethical rules like that, just like the rules of
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: engagement in an armed conflict. We don't think very often
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: about the ethics of conversing with other people. We don't
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: think very often about things like consent. Right, if I
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: bring up a story about trauma, do I stop and think,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: do I have this person's consent to talk about this
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: very difficult subject matter. This may not be the right
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: time for them. Do we think about things like balance,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: like taking turns? Do we think about things like intellectual honesty?
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Intellectual honesty being if I say it, I have to
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: believe that it's true. It may not even be true,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: but I have to truly believe that what I'm telling
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: you is the truth that's required in rhetoric. That's not
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: what we're doing. So I wish we were debating more
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: interesting we're not.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: I think that being a good communicator in America at
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: least is quite profitable. There's a lot of research that
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: states that, like all these great American companies are built
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: on the foundation of questions, Apple employees the Socratic method.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Eric Schmidt says that Google's a company built on questions,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: not answers. Do you have research to share about companies
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: and leadership in terms of curiosity and asking questions? Also,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: you're making the funniest face you've made this entire interview,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: So I'm really curious's what you're gonna say?
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: So yeah. First of all, I'm the worst poker player
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: in the world. I can't lie to save my life.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: So if anyone hadn't noticed, yes, So I don't have
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: specific research on that. We have lots of research on
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: question answering, question asking, et cetera, et cetera, but not
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: on that as part of a corporate leaders personality. However,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: I will say that we have a ton of research
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: on empathic readership, and part of empathic leadership is learning
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: how to listen and ask empathic questions as opposed to
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: most people ask questions that are either dismissive or they're
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: part of the writing reflex, meaning people are rushing to
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: solve things when someone comes to us with an issue,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: immediately going to, oh my god, you should read this
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: book I read or blah blah blah blah blah blahlahlahlah,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: where we have this writing reflex let's make it right.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Or they're dismissive, or oh I know exactly how you feel,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: which is dismissive, or you know, whatever it may be,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: it'll get better, it's all going to be okay, that's dismissive.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: So we know a lot about empathic leadership, and we
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: know that that's basically the only kind of leadership that
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: brings your team members well being. It also just happens
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: to improve productivity. It also happens to reduce turnover, reduce burnout,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, empathy,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: especially if it then takes the next step toward compassion,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: which is emotion and action, that's what you need to be. Now,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: we don't hire for that. We hire for the opposite.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: But we also know that the majority of leaders fail.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: We're hiring the wrong people. We're recruiting for the wrong
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: personality traits. There's a great book that's on some of
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: this research is that which was called something like why
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: are men we have so many men such terrible leaders?
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I'm getting the title wrong, and I'm very sorry, tom Us,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: But there's all this just a data dump of fascinating
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: research on the fact that we hire for the wrong qualities.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: And a lot of the companies that I see that
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: say they pride themselves on asking questions. What they're doing
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: is performative listening. They say they listen to customers. But
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: if what you hear doesn't change your behavior or decisions
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: at all, you're not actually listening. It's just a performance.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: So I don't think Apple is particularly good at listening.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: They certainly don't listen to their consumers, right, same with Google,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Come on, give me a break. Maybe it was that
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: kind of company when Eric was running it. He's not
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: running it anymore. And performative listening is worse than not listening.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: At all, formative anything. Yeah, are there power dynamics in conversation?
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Oh? All the time. Interrupting is a power dynamic, right,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: We know that it makes people feel dominant. There's all
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: sorts of ways in which you know, when you start
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to talk to somebody, your brain makes a calculation that
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: happens so quickly and so far beneath your level of
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: consciousness that you have no idea what's going on, but
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: it is. Your brain makes a calculation as to whether
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: the person you're speaking to is above the same or
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: below your rank in intelligence, in power, et cetera. And
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: if they are below your rank, you're really going to
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: have trouble listening to them. Your brain will almost immediately
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: shut it off and it'll take a lot more effort
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: to listen to them. This is happening to everybody, and
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: it's happening again before you have a chance to intervene.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: The other thing I will say is that the smarter
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: you are, the higher the likelihood that you're bad in conversation.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Bad bad. Wait, that's hilarious, what do you mean.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: The higher your IQ, the worse your conversational skills in general.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of different reasons for this. One
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: of them is that when you are smart, you know
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: a lot, and you enter conversations getting ready to tell
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: other people what you know, so you're not listening. Another
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: one is that smarter people tend to try to deal
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: with others in a logical way, and no conversation is logical.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: In fact, human beings are not logical. We're not logical thinkers.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah. Another thing is that the higher you are IQ,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: the more you are subject to unconscious bias. The more
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: likely you are to discriminate based on your the stereotypes
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: that live in your subconscious than others. And part of
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: that is because you think you're smart, and so you
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: think you're protected against bias. You think all the decisions
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: that you've made are really well thought out and logical,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: and that assumption that you're protected against it is actually
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: makes you more vulnerable to it. And the final thing,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: which is what I'm getting to, is that you don't
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: listen to people. You assume you know what they're going
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: to say, and so they get ten seconds into what
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: they're saying, and your brain is going to get ye
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: yea yea yea yea gee, so you can get to
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: what you're going to say in response, and you don't listen.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Listening and talking require use much of the same exact
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: same parts of the brain. You cannot do them both
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: at the same time. I mean, you cannot both listen
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: to what someone's saying and be thinking about what you're
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: going to say in response.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Have you learned anything about delivering bad news or hard
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: information that people don't want to hear from your daily show?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: So one of the things I try to do is
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: I don't give advice anymore, she says, after she just
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: spent the past twenty minutes giving advice.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Now I consider that insight.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like this is the things I've learned, right, But
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: I don't give advice because we know that biologically speaking
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: and neurologically speaking, when you give somebody it, there's only
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: two situations in which a conversation has negative impacts on
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: a human being. They are if the conversation's hostile obviously,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: or if the conversation involves getting advice. Even if you've
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: requested the advice, your brain reacts in the exact same
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: way as though you've just been punched in the face.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: It starts the same secrets of events it would if
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: you were attacked.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And so you're not exaggerating.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: No, no, wow, I'm simplifying, but I'm not exaggerating. So
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: we have to find a way of informing people without
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: telling them what to do. And you know, there's a
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: lot of ways to do that, and one of the
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: ways is to have a conversation in which you spend
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: most of the time listening and you're getting them, you're
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: guiding them to find the answer. Right. So, in asking questions,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: it means asking questions, it means asking good questions. It
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: means especially asking follow up questions. There's a unique power
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: to follow up questions that makes the other person feel
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: as though they've been heard. It makes them feel as
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: though you are likable, that you are respectful, because to
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: answer a follow up question, you had to be listening, right.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: But you can guide people, So I'll give you an example,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: scientist have been trying for a really long behavioral scientist
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: for a long time to figure out how to break
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: through confirmation bias. Confirmation bias, for those listening, is when
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: you believe something, you are presented with evidence that's absolutely
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: wrong what you believe, and that makes you believe it harder.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: We are the only species that suffers from confirmation bias,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: and they have been trying for a very long trying
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: to figure out how to break through it. Right, if evidence,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: clear evidence doesn't work, what does. So this one group
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: of scientists found that if you ask questions, forcing somebody
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: to explain all of the impacts, the ripple effects of
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: their belief, right, having to walk that through and explain
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: every step of it is the first crack they have
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: seen in confirmation bias. Right, So, if you say to
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: a person, let's say that somebody is doesn't believe in vaccines,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and I hear this all the time, right, I want
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: to say, at the outset, this is not a vaccine skeptic,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: that's a science DENI or vaccines are safe and they
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: protect an entire globe. But if you find someone who
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: doesn't believe in vaccines and they will give you. They
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: almost always give you evidence that's bogus. And I will say,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: that's interesting that you mentioned that research. Every other piece
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: of research I've seen says the opposite. Where did you
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: find that? I'd be interested in seeing that. Can you
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: link that to me? Can you send it to me?
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: I would be very interested in seeing that. Let's imagine
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: that we take away the polio vaccine, walk me through that.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Then what happens? So polio will reservice and then and
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: then and then and as you walk them through this again,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: it is not going to happen that they then end
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: the conversation by saying you're right, I was wrong this
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: whole time. That's not going to happen. But it is
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: possible that you will be able to just put a
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: tiny little crack right, Like Leonard Cohen says that the
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: cracks are how the lights gets in. It's possible you
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: could make a crack in that hard shell of absolute
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: certainty that so many people have. It does work. It's
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: also a way to deliver bad news right to people.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: So the main thing about delivering bad news to stop
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: for a moment, just take a breath and think, what
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: would I need to hear at this moment, Yeah, how
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: would I want to hear this? And then move forward?
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: A huge amount of the suggestions I have about conversation
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: involves slowing down, just taking a breath, slowing it down,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: And this is one of those things. What would you
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: need before somebody told you this? How would you want
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: to be told? And then listen and watch watch their reaction,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: see what they need in that moment. Yeah.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I feel at most oftentimes in hard situations, people really
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: just want your presence because they know there's nothing about
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: you can say. Yeah.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's really common for when people start to tell
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: you about something tough, that we do that thing, the
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: I know how you feel thing. And this isn't the
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: tad talk too, where I'm saying, don't equate your experience
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: with somebody else's and I give everybody the benefit of out.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I do believe that most people are doing this because
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: they think it's going to create an empathic bond, but
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: we also know that it doesn't. In most cases, it
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: just is turning the spotlight back on you. Right. You
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: then tell about your painful experience, and there's part of
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: them that feels the need to comfort you when what
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: they want is to be heard right, if their dog died,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: they want to tell you about their dog, Yeah, how
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: great that dog was, how much they loved that dog.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: They don't want to hear about your dog that you lost.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: It doesn't accomplish what you think that it accomplishes.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, last, I want to get into the nitty
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: gritty of conversation tools with you. Is that okay?
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Okay? So the question I most often get asked by friends, family,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: and listeners of the podcast is how do you open
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: a conversation, especially if you're at a dinner or a
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: work event and you just don't know what to say.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: My first question to you is what question do people
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you most often? And then I want to know the answer.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: To that one. So the number one question that I
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: ask get asked is always about how to change somebody
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: else's behavior. It's always some form of how do I
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: get somebody to stop interrupting me? How do I handle
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: someone who talks all the time without stopping? Blah blah blah.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: It's always some version of that, And I can very
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: quickly answer with that, which is you can't write hard.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: There's nothing you can do about other people's behavior. I
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: will say that more than four out of five people
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: admit that a past relationship has been damaged because of
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: bad communication, but fewer than one in five think it
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: was their fault. So we are not taking responsibility for
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: the times when we have not listened, when we have interrupted,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: when we have escalated things into an argument. And if
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: we focus on what other people are doing all the time,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: we won't get better. That's the first half of that answer.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: The second one. I love this question because it's so common.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: And this is another really common question. Is I can
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: tell us ten things people can say to open a conversation.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: I can't. There's no ten things that you can say
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: that are going to work. But you know, I was
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: at the TED summit one year and this scientist from
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Japan came up and he said, you know, I've watched
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: your talk like twenty times and I still don't know
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: how to start a conversation. How do you start it?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And you know TED, they have their badges are huge,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: they're massive, and they'd say where you're from and all
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: this information about you, and his said that he was
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: from Kyoto and I said, you know, he says you're
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: from Kyoto. I've only ever been to Tokyo. Like, what's
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Kyoto like? And he's like, well, you've seen the pictures.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: It's like the cherry trees and the temples. And I
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: was like, yeah, but where do you live. You don't
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: live in the temple. Like do you guys have streets
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: and little houses or is that all packed into apartments
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: like in Tokyo. He goes, no, no, no, we've got
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: houses and I might get with a backyard. I mean,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: you have pets in a backyard somewhere. Like, tell me
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: what the street looks like. And he starts talking about
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: his street, and he starts talking about his town, and
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: about five minutes later, I say, that's how you start
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: a conversation. You ask people questions they know the answer
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: to about something they care about. About their tattoo. People
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: tell you there's not the story behind their tattoo. There
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: is always a story behind the tattoo, like they got
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: up that morning and chose what to put on. Ask
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: them about the things that they're wearing, Ask them about
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: anything that you see. Take a good look at this
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: person in front of you. Yeah, and ask.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: So I have a follow up about that, because that's
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: considered good small talk. Like I often go I'm a
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: sneaker person. I love shoes. So if someone's wearing like
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: interesting sneakers or even not interesting sneakers, I'm like, oh,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: are you a new balanced person? I'm a Nike person,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Like how long have you been wearing those? And it's
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: just kind of fun banter, right, And I think it's
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: easy in low stakes. But I have heard people say
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: that you shouldn't really ask people about their appearance or
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: something they're wearing. I've found that personally not to be
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: the case. I'm curious what your thoughts are.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never found that to be the case. I mean,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: if somebody is clearly in economic distress and therefore what
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: they're wearing is not by choice but by necessity, I'm
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: not going to ask them about that. There's other things
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: to talk about, but like, what do you need right now?
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: But I have never found that to be the case.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: You know, don't assume people are more sensitive than they are.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: We the behavioral studies have shown that people overestimate the
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: extent to which other people will be offended by something,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: or how sensitive they are. You know, if they don't
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: want to tell you, you'll say, oh, I hate these sneakers,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: and you're like oh, okay, fine, then blah blah blah
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: blahlah blah blah blah blah. I have sneakers I hate too.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Mine came from my aunt, who is the worst buyer
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: of presence ever. You know, you can then start a
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: question about giving presents like people are either good present
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: buyers or really not. I have found that to be true.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can start conversations about all kinds of things.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: But people choose what they wear in the morning. Yeah,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: you know, so my choice.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah I think so too.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll wear a hat. Guy was walking by was
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: wearing a Kansas City hat, but I know he grew
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: up in Wisconsin, and I was like, what the what
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: the heck here? And he's like, well, my dad grew
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: up in Kansas City and so we always had us
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: watching the Kansas City game. He starts telling me the
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. You know. Terry Gross, who hosts
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: a show on NPR called Fresh Air, She says, tell
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: me about yourself is the only opener you'll ever need.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: And I have found that to be true.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me more about what you mean, because
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I think I think you and I actually from understanding
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: your work, disagree on only one thing, okay, and it's
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: open ended questions. I have found that open ended questions
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: startle people. If you said to me, tell me about yourself,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm from Chicago, and it's like not specific
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: enough for me to dive headfirst in what do you think?
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Right? So tell me about yourself? Isn't an open ended question? Right,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: it's not a question. I think what she's really using
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: that about is as a as sort of a metaphor
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: for any question that invites people to tell you about themselves.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: But open ended questions are the type of questions that
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: invite people to say more right. I have heard people
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: there's this habit of asking questions in a way where
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: you answer it yourself. Like I'll give you an example.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: People will say, Hey, what time are you coming home tonight? Six? No? No,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: you have that meeting that's going to go to what
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: what did you say? Six thirty? You know you're really
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: going to hit traffic by then, even if you take
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: the back way up, you probably won't get here to
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: like seven seven thirty. Do you have a full tank?
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not. No, I drove it yesterday and it was
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: nearly empty. So you probably want to make sure you
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: get I mean, five minutes later, they have not allowed
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: the other person to respond at all. And it's partly
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: because we have this fear of giving up control of
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: the conversation. The number one fear that most people have
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: when they hesitate to start a conversation is they are
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: afraid they'll get stuck in it and won't be able
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: to get out. Now, the interesting thing to me is
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: these people who are surveyed cannot give a single example
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: of a time when that happened, when they were stuck
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: in a conversation and unable to get out right. I
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: used to feel that way, so less how did you
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: get over it?
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I actually had to interview people, and I interviewed people
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: mostly in hospitality because they're so adept at moving in
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: and out of conversation quickly because they're at a party
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: or a restaurant and they have to be gracious and
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: warm and move on quickly. And I got great tips
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: from them, and I thought, you know what, I'm never
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: offended if somebody moves on from a conversation from me.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to stop assuming offense the way you
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: just said, overstating the assumption and just move on politely.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a great point that you bring up here.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: And when I do workshops for people, I will spend
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: time having them practice leaving a conversation. Oh I love that.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I'll be like, all you have to do is say
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: I gotta go, it's so great to see you, see
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: you later, and just spend whatever excuse they want, just
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: practice it over and over and over again so they're
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: ready with it. You know what you're talking about. Asking
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: people from hospitality is another thing, a piece of advice
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: that I give people all the time, which you did naturally.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: You know, when people are hesitant to start conversations, I say,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: go talk to those people who are being paid to
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: be nice to you. Go start the conversation with your barista,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: because a you know, it's time limited, it has to
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: end quickly. It's going to be maybe ninety seconds and
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: be that they have to be nice to you.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Right, And so the stakes are super super low. And
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: yet we know that even under those circumstances, you're still
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: going to get a boost to your mood. You're still
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: going to get a boost to your sense of belonging.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Like body will respond. That's sort of the beauty of it.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, wait, I want to go back to our
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: open ended questions moment, So can you share more about
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: open ended questions? Take me through how you do that,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: because you really are an expert at it and you
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: don't leave people feeling startled.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, an open ended question just means a question that
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: can't be answered with yes or no. Okay, right, that's
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: what an open ended question is. It's open ended. But
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I would take it a little bit further and say,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: you want to keep your question brief. You want to
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: make the other person feel as though you're really curious.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: And this is the thing about any question at all,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: It needs to come from a sincere place of curiosity.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: So whatever it is that you need to get in
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: your head to get you into that frame of mind,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: The book Speaking of Race has some suggestions by the way,
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: some exercises. If this is tough for people to get
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: yourself into that headspace, I wonder you know, when I'm
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: preparing for an interview, I'm not asking questions for myself.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I'm a surrogate for the audience. They're not going to
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: get the chance to sit down with the Secretary of Defense,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: so I need to be their surrogate, and I have
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: to sit there and ask myself, Okay, what what would
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: most people want to know? Right if they were talking
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: to Michelle Obama? What would what would people want to know?
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Are you able to separate your own curiosity? That's pretty remarkable.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean I I oftentimes satisfy
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: my own quick curiosity as well. Right. Sometimes I'll read
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: some wild story from their past and I'll be like, Okay,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: I read this thing, and I have to know if
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: this is true?
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Like, but yeah, I am able to sit there and
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: think what Here's what I think is to myself. What
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: can this person tell me that no one else can?
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's a great question.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: The logistics, the details about things. Anybody can tell you that,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: you know, the stories that everybody's heard before. Everyone can
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: tell you that. But what can this person tell me
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: that only they know? And that's the most useful conversation
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: is to really dig into some what they know best?
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: You know what.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: It frustrates me to no end when people bring in
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: especially artists, musicians, writers, and they don't ask them about
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: their craft. Right, Like you bring in a musician who's
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: a slap guitarist and you don't ask them about that,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: like how why would you do this? This is the
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: thing they've been doing for thirty years. It's clearly the
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: thing they care most about in life. If you're trying
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: to get something good about them asking about the craft.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: You know. I did an interview with Tony Morrison, and
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I didn't know this when I was doing the interview.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Is that when she had her the opera based on
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: her novel, Beloved was premiering. And I didn't know this,
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: but I guess she was notorious Lee a very very
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: difficult interview. She had walked out on interviews. She clam
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: would clam up, and I ended up having like a
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: nearly hour long conversation with her. They had to ask
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: her to get up lead because somebody else is coming in.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: And later on when I was at a fellowship, they
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: were like, clust, we want you to talk to the
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: rest of the fellows about how you got Tony Morrison
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: to talk. And I was stunned. I'm like, what do
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: you mean what I read her books? Like that's what
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: I did. Yeah, And that's that's totally true of many
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: of the best interviews that I've had, is that I
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: listened to their work. Right. I interviewed John Irving, who
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: again is another notorious difficult interview, and his press person
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: warned us many times in advance, you know, but I
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: read his book and I had so many questions and
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: there was like this one chunk of the book and
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, look, I know that people say
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: this all the time and it's you bunk, but I
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: think you are writing about yourself here, and stay with me.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna explain why. And I get to the end
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: of it and he's like, holy cow, like you're right.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: I think you're right. And when he's leaving, he told
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: his press person, Okay, I'll come back and do an
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: interview with her anytime. I'm not doing anything special. I'm
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: just reading their work. I'm looking through the work that
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: they have done, their actual work. I'm not asking about
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: their four divorces or their relationship with their dad. I mean,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: that's okay, if that's what they want to talk about.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: What they really want to talk about is their work.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: That's actually an interesting perspective in terms of small talk
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: and and sort of the idea of clamming up because
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: everybody knows something that you don't, right, Yeah, right, to
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: like find out what that is and hone in on
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: it and just be really curious about the most niche
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: thing possible. They light up talking about it. I was
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: sat next to a guy on the plane who ran
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: golf courses around the world. I know very little about
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: that industry. I peppered him with questions and he was like,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I never talked to people on a plane.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I am so I can't believe we talked the whole time.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, you sat next to the
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: wrong person, you know, but everybody does know something. Speaking
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: of knowing, in your TED talk, one of your tips
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: for better conversations is, if you don't know, say you
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: don't know. Why is their power in admitting something that
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: you don't know?
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Well first, pretending to know something about everything erodes trust.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: You know, there's times when someone talks about something that
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: one article in the New Yorker today, right, and you're
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: really quickly googling it on your phone underneath the table
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: so you can try to add it to the conversation.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: We know, subconsciously, we know that other people cannot know
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: something about everything, so when they pretend to, we know
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: some of it's bullshit. We just don't know which, So
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: we start to get a little skeptical of everything because
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: that might just be the bullshit. No, eight, that might
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: be the bullshit. It erodes trust. You know, one of
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: the professions that has the hardest time saying I don't know.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: In fact, the profession that has the hardest time, it's
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: not lawyers. It's doctors. And we can understand, right, like,
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: you don't want to go to the doctor and be like, okay, doc,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? And then I go, heck if
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I know?
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Right, Like.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: You get why yes. But what happens is doctors guess
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: all the time, and the American Medical Association would like
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: them to stop doing that. So they've run some experiments
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: and in one they had their control group right where
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: they just kept going on and doing what they're doing.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: But the other group, they taught them to say, I
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: don't know, but i'll find out. And they spent months
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: doing this with patients, and they were scared to death.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: They thought all those patients would leave to find a
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: doctor who had more knowledge. Right, But at the end
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: of the months long experiment, those doctors who said I
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: don't know, but I'll find out, the trust in them
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: was significantly higher. The patient's estimation of their knowledge of
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: their smarts of their experience went up, not down, because
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: it increases trust. And I hope everybody does the same thing.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know about this all. Shall let other people
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: be experts in what they do. Learn from them, you know,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: let other people tell you. I mean, everybody has an
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: experience with someone else who knows nothing about their job
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: giving them advice on how to do their job. Even
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: real table clerks, even janitors know what that feels like
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: and it's not great. So let's not do it to
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: other people.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Do you think you're able to tell in interviews when
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: people are full of it? No?
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I mean I do a lot of prep. I'm sure
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: you do too. So if they're saying stuff that I
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: know is factually incorrect, I will correct it. But I
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: can't tell who's lying. I mean, I just tend to
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: trust people what they're saying about themselves, you know, like
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: you know, people blame Oprah for what it was, a
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: million little pieces or whatever it was. Not knowing that
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: that was all, I wouldn't have known, like ch of
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Us would have known that. I know, I have no idea.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Do you feel like you have a sort
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: of gift in this, like what is Everyone sort of
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: has the lens through which they see things. I think
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: like Oprah like her lens was spirituality. Barbara Walters to
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: me there was always a question behind the question. She
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: was getting to something other than what she was saying,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: what is your thing?
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: I think I'm the queen of the follow up question.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: That's a gift.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I really listen and people will say stuff
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: and surprise you with what they say. And I will
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: sometimes be like who whoa whoa bo what wait, stop
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: for just a second, did you just say to And
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: they were like, yeah, I guess I did, right. Or
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: I'll repeat back their words to them, and people will
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: reveal themselves to you in a beautiful, wondrous, magical way,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: even with what they're saying is neither beautiful nor wondrous.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: It's kind of a magical transaction, the revealing of a
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: human mind. Through conversation. People will say stuff that's unexpected,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: like I hate to do an interview where there's no surprise,
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: sometimes surprise for me, sometimes just a surprise for the listeners,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: and sometimes a surprise for the interviewee. And I think
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: that that's probably my special skill. You know, I also
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: have a really good skill of explaining very complicated things
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: to people in a way that they understand. Yes, and
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: that is so rare.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: That is true. That is a gift.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't. I've never thought of it that way,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: but it's now come up so many times that I've
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: sort of accepted, Oh, this, I guess this is relatively unique.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: But I'm very good at it.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's hard to break down medical studies and neuroscience
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: and share it in a way that's interesting and digestible.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I get notes of appreciation from scientists all the time,
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: like I'm the science translator.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I interviewed a science communicator. I didn't
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: know that was a job. So you are technically important, Yes,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: it is.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: It is. Yeah.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you mentioned in your book that you've had
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: moments in your career where you've suffered because you couldn't
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: seem to make yourself understood during important conversations. What was
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: holding you back and what did you need to switch
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: up in order to get your point across?
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: I think the main thing callding me back with self consciousness.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: I was way too wrapped up in my inner monologue
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: and look like most other people, my inner monologue is
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: not very kind, right. I was just trying to be
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: so careful and say exactly the right thing, and I
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: was also anticipating pushback. You know, we'll have will rehearse
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: these things in our head and will practice arguments.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: And then I said, you know, and I was preparing
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: myself for the wrong thing. You know, I wasn't. I
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: was preparing myself to try to defend myself when no
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: one had attacked me yet. And also I didn't give
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: any thought whatsoever into what I needed to hear from them,
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: what I needed to learn from them, all of my
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: preparations on what I was going to say, and it
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: was about like the most superficial thing either what words
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: to use, you know, which doesn't It doesn't help at all. So,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: you know, I think a common thing I used to
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: believe that I would get too emotional. That's not true.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Don't let people tell you not to bring emotion into
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: a conversation. First of all, it's complete bullshit. There's no
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: such thing as a conversation that doesn't have an emotion
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: in it. But also, emotion is important data, it's information.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: For us. We are big brained social animals, and our
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: emotion is information. It's your subconscious trying to tell you something.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Ignore it at your peril. So when I was getting
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: emotional and wrapped up very often, what I was feeling
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: was frustration, And that was important for me to realize
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: at that moment, I was frustrated because I wasn't expressing
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: what I needed to express. And what I really did
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: to do that moment is say, give me a moment
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: for a second, let me get my head straight. Okay,
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna start over. Here's the issue, here's what I need. Now,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: what's the issue from your point of view? And how
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: do we move forward?
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Like, that's what I needed to do.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: Do you have tools now in terms of how to
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: handle conversations with people who are not capable of meeting
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: you in a meaningful conversation.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: So it depends on what flavor of not meeting me
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: you mean. If you're talking about a conversation in which
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: someone is disrespecting me, abusing me in any way, shape
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: or form, I mean abusing me by using belittling language,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: dehumanizing me, etc. Walk Away, Yeah, just walk away. There's
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: no point if you're talking about not meeting me because
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: they're wrapped up in their own stuff. Yeah, my tool
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: is to say, hold on a second, WHOA, I feel
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: like you're not hearing me. My sense is that you're
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: not hearing me. It feels as though you're really focused
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: on what's going on in your head. So let's deal
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: with that first, because I need to be heard. Talk
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: about what's happening with you, and then me okay, is
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: that a deal. My tools are almost all related to
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: just bringing the unspoken out into the open, making the
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: undiscussable discussable. And one of the comparisons I use in
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: the book is like when you're at a play and
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: there's a really dramatic scene and the female actor's wig
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: starts to slide off her head, Like you can try
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: to ignore it, but that's the only thing anybody. No
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: one is hearing any of the things are saying. They're
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: only concerned about that wig. It's the same thing in
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: conversations when stuff is unspoken. Yeah, you just have to
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: pull a wig off or secure it again, whatever it
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: may be, and then move forward. And I found that
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: in conversations too, where I'll be like, hey, I saw
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: an expression on your face. I interpreted that is that
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: I said something wrong? Is that true? Is that right? Am?
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: I am? I accurate? I just bring it out into
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: the open now.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great advice. Even though you don't
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: give advice, it's good insight. One of the things that
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: I struggle to communicate is how to foster curiosity. I've
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: found that reading helps foster curiosity. But other than that,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: if somebody feels as if they're not innately super curious,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: which is sort of I think the very beginning or
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: the first seeds of conversation, are there things that we
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: can do to foster our own curiosity or even plant
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: it within children, like at the dinner table.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: So role playing is incredibly powerful, and I know that
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: people feel silly when we talk about role playing. I'm
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: not trying to, you know, enlist anyone in an improv
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: class or anything, but it is shocking how powerfully we
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: can affect and even change a mind by asking people
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: to role play. So when it comes to curiosity, I
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: want people to what questions would you ask if you
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: were this was your pet subject, Like if you were
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: you're talking to a chess master, you yourself, you don't
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: care about chess, we know that, but Let's imagine that
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: you were a nerdy kid who like thinks chess is
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: the greatest thing ever, Then what would you ask, Right,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: here's this gardener. Let's imagine that gardening is your frickin' jam.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Then what would you say? And you can start to
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: foster curiosity that way. The other thing is to you know,
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: what I was saying before, is like to look for
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: the stuff that surprises you. Look for the contradictions, right,
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: the vegetarian who makes their own barbecue sauce. Right, look
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: for the inherent contradictions, because everyone has contradictions in their life.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: And then maybe that's what sparks your curiosity. Imagine if
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: you were in their shoes, what decisions would you have made? Differently?
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: How would you have handled what they went through? And
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: you can by creating that connection with your own personal experience,
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: you can start to foster curiosity. Curiosity is about It's
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: about slowing down just a little and looking at all
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: the different sides of what it is until you find
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: the side that sparks a neuron in your head.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Has all of this research deepened connections in your own life?
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm a better person. I mean, there's not
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: very many other ways to do that, to say that
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: I'm a better kinder, more compassionate, more moral, a better friend.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: I'm a great gift buyer because I listen right, I
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: am a better person with a better life, with more
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: love in my life, with more people I can rely on.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: You know, when I was younger, I don't know who
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: you know. I probably the people I could have called
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: in case of emergency was made. There's maybe two or
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: three of them, right, I have a dysfunctional family, so
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: my family's not among them. Now I got a whole
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: call list. Give me the roster. There's so many people
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: that can rely on me, and who I can rely on,
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: life is better.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes we put a lot of energy into
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: thinking about conversations with new people with work, sort of
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: like in networking, we think about conversation as a tool
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: to get something oftentimes and fiction. Yeah, the best conversations
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: are the opposite. It's really about giving, for sure. But
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: I am curious about how we can apply some of
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: these small talk, low stakes ideas or lessons to the
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: people closest to us, because I think forget to ask
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: the people close to us the real curious questions. We
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: kind of just ask about the weather.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Of the day, what you ate to me.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Those are the moments to really that's where the open
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: ended questions and the follow ups really shine.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know, the book that I'm currently working
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: on right now is about my great grandmother, and I
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: find myself over the course of this wishing so much
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: that I had asked my grandparents more questions.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Yea.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: And I hear that often about people who after they've
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: lost a loved one, and you can't hear those stories anymore,
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: wishing they asked more, that they listened more. You know,
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of people think of conversation as something we're
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: doing for other people. Right, Okay, I'm gonna be nice
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: and I'm gonna listen. Really listen so hard, it's so hard.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: It's so hard. Okay, I'll listen. They're so boring. Oh
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: my god, when are they gonna stop talking? I'm gonna listen.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: And it's true that listening to others is a gift
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: that we give to others, but we really underestimate how
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: much it does for us. Ralph Nichols, a scientist who
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: is called the father of listening, said that the most
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: basic of all human needs is the need to understand
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: and be understood. And the best way to understand people
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: is to listen to them. You know. I often ask
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: what I'm doing, like workshops or whatever. I'll ask people
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: to take a moment and think about the last time
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: they felt really heard, like really heard, like the other
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: person really understood them, and what that felt like. You
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: know that that feeling of being heard, that is just
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: an irreplaceable experience for us. We can have that experience.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: We can also give that experience to other people for
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: no money, for no investment. Yeah, and think about how
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: much that one small change could change the world, all
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: the things going wrong. I'm not trying to be simplistic
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: or naive here, but think of all the things going
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: wrong in the world, and how just those that experience
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: of feeling understood can change the course of history. Like,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: that's a gift you can give every day every day.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: That was so beautiful, Celestia almost brought me to tears.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: Oh thanks, it's.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Really true, it is. Do you feel seen and heard
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: very often or is it rare for you?
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Oh? No, I do all the time. I mean I
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: have surrounded myself with people who are loving and open
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: hearted and smart. Surround yourself with Okay, I will give
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: one piece of advice. Surround yourself with people who are
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: smarter than you are is the best. It is the
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: best ever. Yeah, I yes, I am very very lucky.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: I do a little rapid fire to tie things up,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: so if you'll indulge me, I have like five or
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: six for you.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: How important are names in conversation?
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: I'm terrible with names, so I'm biased, and I'm going
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: to say not that important, although we do get a
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: real big, nice boost of our mood when someone else
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: has our name. So learn people's names.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: What is something you're currently trying to improve.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: Upon learning people's names? No, seriously, it's a lifelong, lifelong
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: work in progress to get better at remembering people's names.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: I'm terrible, terrible at it, but yes, so fine.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: I am too, and we're both conversationalists. I don't know
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: what that is professional, Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: What that is. Okay.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: Something about your future that you love imagining?
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: I love to imagining retiring. I'm going to be so
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: good at retirement. I'm going to be the best retire Like,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: if they graded retirement, I would be absolute four point
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: zero retiree. I'm going to be really got it?
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, are you going to be on island time? What's
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: the plan?
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, I I'm just gonna do the stuff I
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: want to do. I'm gonna visit every the miniature's museum
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: in the whole country. I'm gonna like find every isolated
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: cabin ever and go up there with a big bag
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: of groceries. Like, I am just gonna you know, I'm
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: gonna do nothing at all. I'm so fricking lootly laughing.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: Funny, I would not have guessed that. Okay, if someone
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: feels socially awkward or anxious, what's one small step they
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: can take today to become more comfortable in conversation?
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Ask more questions. When you're asking other people questions, all
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: the pressure is off of you. Also, I will mention
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: that research up again at Harvard showed that talking about yourself,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: what you like, what you know, what you don't like,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: activates the same pleasure center in the brain as sex
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: and heroine. So if you allow other people the opportunity
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: to talk about themselves by asking them questions, you are
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: giving them a very pleasurable feeling, and they will think
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: you're the greatest person ever. Yeah.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, a book that changed your life, something you
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: think everybody should read.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: That's a question question. There's a lot of them. Let
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: me go back to the og and say that Bleak
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: House from Charles Dickinson was one of the books that
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: really changed my life. But I would go back to
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: even the Pickwick Papers because when you talk about listening
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: to people, that book is like disconnected and disjointed, and
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: but he's so good at giving you a feeling for
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: a character within a couple paragraphs, like every distinct individual
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: and their own little foibles and how it makes them
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: who they are. And it's a really good reflection of
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: you know, our own global community.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Cool. That's not a recommendation that I've gotten on the
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: podcast yet, So thank you for that.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, I do a question everything card every single time,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: so please just tell me when to stop. So, okay,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: what's your favorite scent?
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: It has become pine.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: We're meant to be in a cabin in the woods,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: CELESTI right.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: I never would have guessed that, and Celeste Younger would
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: be like, what is this a seventy five year old's buick?
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: But no, the scent of pine is very comforting to me.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: I loved hearing at the beginning of this conversation that
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: you weren't always this remarkable in conversation. I think it's
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: like it's so inspiring that it really is something that
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: you can think about, learn about, practice and apply to
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: your own life.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah. If I'm just waiting for the day when
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: somebody gets my old college roommates online and they start
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: talking about how terrible I was in the past. I'm
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: also not great all the time on planes like you.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: You know, we could do an event like a keynote
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: or something, and it is emotionally exhausting, and then I
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: get on the plane and I'm like, don't look at me,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: don't touch me, don't make eye contact with me. So
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: there's times when you have to know your limitations even now,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: and you have to pay charge. Yeah, yeah, you have
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: a you have one bucket of social energy each day
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: and there's no refilling it until the next day. So
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: conserve it, you know, spend it wisely.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: So lest you are such a fun conversation partner, I'm
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: so grateful for your time.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: Thank you for this. Oh, it's been my pleasure. It's
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: been a true joy.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is, Today's a good
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: day to have a good day. I'll see you next week.