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The 5 o' Clock Shadow with David Shapiro and Viv Govender · Strictly Business

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You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams.
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The JSC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the five o'clock
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shadow.
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And as always, on a Thursday, I speak to Viv Govender from RAND Swiss in
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Johannesburg,
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David Shapira from SAS Fin Securities in the same city.
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And David, I'll start with you because I read a LinkedIn article from you just a
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few hours ago, actually.
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And it was all to do with the American.
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stock market versus other stock markets in terms of market capitalization.
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And I thought, there's David being US-centric again.
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But not at all.
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You make some very, very good points.
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But I would like to say big is not always best.
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And rather, the best thing is the bigger they are, the harder they fall.
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The more money they make.
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Yeah, very good.
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Yeah, what I'm trying to illustrate is.
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just the size of these businesses.
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We mentioned it a week or two ago when the results came out, you know,
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when I was just overwhelmed by the actual amounts of money,
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the absolute amount of money that these companies generate.
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And this is just an extension of it.
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You know, I was just extending, listen, this is how big the U.S.
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is.
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You know, there are a lot of people in the stock markets and everybody's got their
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own opinion.
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And a lot of people like to play at the bottom end of the market in small caps.
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And they can trade to their delight and make money.
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It doesn't mean you're not going to make money.
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I think what I'm trying to illustrate is just how powerful economically the U.S.
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is and how much more powerful they're getting through the size of these
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businesses.
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And it's quite remarkable that the U.S.
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market is I'm just giving this for You know,
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for Viv to say that the US market is something like $73 trillion.
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I mean, that's an enormous amount of money.
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And if you look at the other markets, like the Chinese market is $16 trillion.
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Sorry, did I say $73 trillion?
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Yes.
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So the Chinese market is $16 trillion.
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Europe is a lot less.
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I'm just going to look it up, the number now.
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I've forgotten where Europe is.
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but It's, Europe is, hold on here, 14 trillion.
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So you've got China, sorry, 17 trillion, 14 trillion, you know, together.
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And Switzerland, 2.4, UK, 3.
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Put those markets together, you don't come close to the US.
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And if we take the top five stocks, Nvidia, Apple, Alphabet, Microsoft,
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Amazon,
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collectively around about 20 trillion, which is bigger than the Chinese market.
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and certainly a lot bigger than Europe.
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So this is the size of those businesses that we're talking about.
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And I'm just illustrating how much they generate and how important they are in the
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global context.
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And they're not slowing down.
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They just continue to drive forward.
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And they've got the kind of money that can invest in where things are going.
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You know, I didn't even mention Tesla.
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But, I mean, that's...
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That's the point that I'm trying to make.
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Everybody gets very upset with the US.
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No, they don't get upset with it.
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They're just probably jealous of it.
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Viv, at what point do the companies become too big and then they start influencing
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political thought and political direction and the sort of thing we're seeing at the
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moment?
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I'm not talking about ballrooms being built because that's a lot of nonsense.
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But at some stage, someone will sit down with the US president or the governor of
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California and say, listen.
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my company produces more than your GDP in terms of revenue every single year.
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Viv, in the future, might that happen?
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What do you mean in the future?
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Still as a United, my friend, there's actually a U.S.
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court case that came out that basically said that corporate speech is part of free
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speech.
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There's a huge kind of shift in the U.S.
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system in terms of...
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Just the amount of money being spent on some of these things.
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I mean, you have governor races in the U.S.
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where they spend more money than you would have in any, like, you know, political
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race in Europe.
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You know, we're talking about, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, sorry, in
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some cases.
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Mayorships, I mean, you know, in like New York City or Los Angeles, you're talking
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the kind of money you would normally spend on a presidential, you know,
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race happening there.
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And then along the billions, literally billions that are spent on a U.S.
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presidential race.
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What occurs in this scenario is that You get so much money being spent here that
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the only way you can compete is to
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have the money and therefore you become indebted to the people that give you the
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money.
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And so this has already occurred in the US and I think that there was a study done a
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few years ago.
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I can't recall who did it, but it said that the relationship between what the
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electric wants and what the
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politicians actually do is not that strong.
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The relationship between what I think the top percent of contributors want and what
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the politicians do is, you know, almost one to one.
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And that is that is the way the world works, quite frankly.
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It's already there.
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But the one thing I have to say in terms of the U.S.
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is that it's such a massive outlier in terms of how big its capital markets are.
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So, I mean, we talked about A.
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China, Europe, India, these are all places that have stock markets roughly equivalent
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to the size of their economy.
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The US is like multiple the size of its economy.
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It's a very unusual stock market.
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And the number two thing is that the advantage of this is that it becomes the
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deepest capital pool.
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That means if you want to go and do something in the world, and you really
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want to raise funds to do it, unfortunately, the US is the only way to
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go.
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You really can't raise the money you need to raise to do what, for instance,
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let's say you want to spend the $100 billion, billion that they, or 200 billion
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that these companies like Facebook and
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Amazon are spending in the U.S.
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per company on AI. There's no way to raise that money in China except for the
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government.
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You just don't have the capital markets deep enough.
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You just can't do that in Europe.
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You can't do that in India.
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And this is a huge advantage that the U.S.
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has that kind of compounds itself, like David says, that the further ahead you
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are, the further ahead you get.
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And that's kind of what's been happening in the U.S.
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at the moment.
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What about private credit?
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Because I asked somebody the question the other day.
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Maybe it was David, actually.
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I don't know.
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But it was somebody and I said,
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how do they raise between 700 billion and 1 trillion for CapEx for AI?
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These are the big tech stocks.
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Where does the money come from?
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They've got the money.
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Obviously, they've got a lot of money.
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They're generating cash.
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They're printing cash, but they have to raise some money somewhere else.
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and Viv is private I'll stay with you Viv, is private credit a dangerous thing?
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Because there's been a lot of red flags been flying in the last few months about
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private credit.
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Look, they aren't going to the bank and getting $700 billion loans.
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Let's be frank about that.
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Look, a lot of it has been like, you know, sovereign wealth funds that put money in
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the US.
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A lot of international investors are pumping money into the US.
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And that's just because that's where the growth is, unfortunately, for the rest of
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the world.
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Europe has kind of, whatever reason, I know you're sitting in the Netherlands.
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We're the only company in Europe that basically seems to be involved in AI, you
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know, ASML.
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But the way Europe has gone over the last couple of decades is amazing in terms of
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just how much it's abdicated
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its role in the world.
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China, of course, you know, you say the wrong thing and suddenly you are Jack Ma
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and disappear for a few months and come back and become an English teacher or
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something.
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India is just not rich enough yet.
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Japan has its own massive things.
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The U.S.
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is the only place in the world that you can really find.
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It's got a huge amount of talent and huge amount of capital to invest in.
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And that's what's happening.
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And, you know, at the moment, the AI spend, I know that I'm invested in AI.
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I mean, I was just looking at my portfolio.
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We did 20% the last month.
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You know, we haven't exactly been lagging, but we did 20% in the last month.
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And the reason for this is, quite frankly, just that the amount of money flowing into
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AI right now is insane.
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But the only place this could happen was the US.
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There's no other capital market in the world that could.
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absolve this kind of investments.
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Isn't that strange that you say all these things and you're extolling the virtues of
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the United States of America and David as
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well.
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He's US-centric when it comes to investing, but he doesn't like going to
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America because he's breathing the same air as Donald Trump.
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I know somebody who's an incredibly successful interior designer in New York,
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has had an apartment in Midtown, David,
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and you know how expensive Midtown apartments are.
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She's had it for 30 years and it's now worth goodness knows how much.
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And I said, what are you going to do now?
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You're in your 60s.
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She said, I'm moving to southwest London.
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I'm moving to Putney.
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I'm moving in with my sister because I don't want to be in America anymore.
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So it's almost like there's two Americas.
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I mean, three or four Americas actually, David.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I can understand that.
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But how do you explain where it's going?
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I'm a mess.
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I was listening to the Milken interviews on Bloomberg at the Milken Institute.
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And I think one of my regrets is that I can't go to these seminars.
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You know, I don't know how much they cost on the other side of the world.
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And I'm not in that kind of mood.
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But when I listen to the interviews and I hear what is happening,
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where the world's going and where America is going,
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where America is leading it and going into space and the...
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You know, I was listening to Cathy Wood talk about Elon Musk.
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I mean, it's quite phenomenal where this is going.
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And just to go back to what Viv says, there's only one place that can finance
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that.
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And that's the US.
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No one else is going to lay out that kind of risk capital to do these kind of
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projects.
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But when they get it right, of course, they're ahead of the market and everybody
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becomes a buyer, not a seller.
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You know, the rest of the world is buying from them, which allows the US to dictate
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terms of anything.
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So it's the Americans.
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I don't know whether it's it's you know, we British by background.
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I mean, even though we're South African and that we were brought up in the.
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Westminster system of schooling and so on of parliament.
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And, you know, at the end of movies, we'd get up because then they play God Save the
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Queen at that stage.
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You know, that kind of thing.
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Are you listening to this?
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Viv, are you listening to this?
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You know, with caps.
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You know, we had little school caps and short pants and played cricket and, you
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know, so on.
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But so, you know, that's how we brought up.
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And to an extent, the same kind of humor.
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We understand what irony is.
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America is a totally different culture and it's not easy to get into it.
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But if you're an entrepreneur, if you've got that kind of spirit,
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and the Indians make it a lot, I mean, there's a massive amount of highly
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educated
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Indians in America making it big.
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Wherever you look now, you'll see high-level people that have come from
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India.
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And I say it because they had the kind of education system that the U.S.
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produced, I mean, that the U.K.
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produced.
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But they've got that kind of, well, how do you explain it, Viv?
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You know, they're very, very ambitious and hardworking.
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And they can make it.
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They can tolerate that kind of culture and they just go ahead.
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So I'm absolutely, you know, I'm absolutely bombed out by how many.
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successful Indian entrepreneurs and business people there are in the US
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because the system has allowed them to do
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what they can't do in India.
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What about China?
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Six days a week, children on the Sunday on their day off are doing mathematical,
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studying maths and doing maths exams online, David.
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I mean, China and India are very similar when it comes to education, I think.
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Oh, education, yes.
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But...
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The Indians play cricket, you know, I mean, or they were brought up British way.
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They're not going to go to China.
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I'm not talking about that.
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I'm just talking about two nations that are ahead of a place like Britain, which
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has an education system,
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which is quite frankly, it's probably Dickensian in its nature.
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Have you been champing at the bit?
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I know you want to say something because David kept on going on about Indians doing
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well in America.
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Yeah, look, I mean, there's a couple of things to mention.
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Firstly, a stack will blow your mind.
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Elon Musk is worth roughly two times South Africa's GDP.
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Okay?
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Elon Musk alone is worth about $850 billion.
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South Africa's GDP is about $480 billion.
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So not quite, but roughly.
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It's significantly more than South Africa's GDP one man is worth.
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Now, Elon Musk was South African.
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He was born here, got the education here, and he went to the U.S.
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Why did he do so well in the U.S.
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versus South Africa?
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It's because of the system.
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It's that system makes it.
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so much easier.
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Americans, I mean, they're perfectly nice people.
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I know plenty of Americans and they're nice people.
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They're not special.
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They're not exceptional.
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They're not like, you don't speak to Americans and come away thinking, my God,
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these are the world's best whatever.
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But what you do get is that a lot of people from around the world go to the US
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and they do very well for themselves because the Americans literally have the
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world's best
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system.
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And the interesting thing, you talk about Indians and Chinese.
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Did you see Donald Trump's tweet this week about immigrants and whatnot?
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And he had immigrants from North America making half a million dollars
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contribution.
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immigrants from like you know japan three hundred thousand dollars contribution and
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you know um and then from somalia negative million and from
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like different like you know countries negative negative negative so basically
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north america europe and japan all positive
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uh all the darker countries like in the south america africa and so on all
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negative what's
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weird about that he's left at two countries no countries left out china and
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india why because the average india basically contributes
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like three times as much to America's taxes.
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Like 1.6 million versus like the number you put as number one, the North Americans
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of like 500,000.
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And the average Chinese is about 800,000 to 900,000 as well.
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So significantly above that.
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And the reason being is a couple of things.
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Firstly, when you take the best off to effectively 40% of the world, they're
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going to be pretty bloody good.
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You know what I mean?
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The top 1% in India, the top 1% in China is basically a huge chunk of the world's
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population.
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It's tens of millions of people and they are going to be exceptional.
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And that's one of the reasons.
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And the second thing is this.
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I don't know if you know this, but roughly 60% of the hotels in America are owned by
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the Patels.
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There's a, there's a, there's a, no, it's like real, like six, zero percent,
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over half of the hotels in the US are owned by this little group from India
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called the Patels, okay?
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It's the, it's the advantage that you get when you have social networks that kind of
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like, you know, reinforce each other.
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When you have, for instance, in like South Africa, where you have like, you know,
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nepotism or whatever,
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it is negative because overall it kind of feeds against each other.
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But when you get nepotism and other guys are not using it, bloody hell, it's a
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rocket.
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shipped to the top, you know what I mean?
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And, I mean, it's not just, you know, Indians, Chinese.
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There was, like, I mean, the famous case of, like, you know,
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Jewish diamond sellers in New York and how they could do handshake deals because if
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you basically cheated somebody,
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your mother would talk to his mother and there'd be trouble.
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Yeah.
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And that's the kind of stuff that happens here.
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And I think that's one of the advantages of being in the US is that, you know,
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obviously the things that may be holding you back at home help you out.
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But the US system, like I said, is the greatest wealth creation system that's
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ever been created.
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And I honestly think that in terms of what, you know, if you are super talented,
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no matter what you are in the world,
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there's dancers, singer, entrepreneur, you know, electrician, whatever, there's only
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one place in the world that you would go to maximize that money,
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that talent, that's the US.
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And that is why even someone like Donald Trump can't break the US.
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That's why even, you know, the things we've had in the past, like the leaders of
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the past, is that that system is so strong, you know.
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Capitalism just is the winner, quite frankly.
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Anyone can do anything,
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and that is borne out by the fact that one of the world's greatest and most cruel,
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stupid, arrogant, narcissistic men in history is the President of the United
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States.
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Anything is possible in the United States of America.
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David, I want to get back to Earth now.
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And last week or the week before, I called you out and I said, clicks is down 10% and
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you said...
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I haven't read it.
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Now, that said something to me because it means you were making money elsewhere and
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you didn't really care.
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It's not that you didn't care, but it wasn't one of your priorities to read a
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Stock Exchange news service announcement from the JSC.
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Today, there have been two, one from Life Healthcare and one from SAPI.
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Both share prices down double digits.
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Have you looked at either of those trading statements?
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Well, I'm not surprised with SAPI, I think.
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Whenever it comes out, it's a surprise on the downside.
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I don't know how they managed to survive, you know, but life health care, not
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really, because
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I'm a little surprised that it's down double digit.
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But once again, I haven't really dedicated myself to...
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No, it's okay.
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...to whatever.
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Where is this now?
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I'll give you a quick summary.
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No, you don't have to.
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I was just asking if you had, and it doesn't matter at all.
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So I'm just saying...
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You know, Chimpy is...
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is very disappointing.
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You know, it's just one of those companies that is battling against just the world
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economic system.
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You know, people don't have newspaper anymore.
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They don't use fine papers, very little printed material anymore.
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So it's been very difficult.
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They have made kind of money on Viscos, which is used in clothing, et cetera.
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But it's just, and they're not dominant.
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It's one of those industries where you can't be dominant.
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You've got a huge amount of competition and there's always price issues.
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There are always cost issues.
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So it's not one I always look at the chart and say, okay, that's my sappy, you know,
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or whatever.
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I don't know.
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But life health care, I'm a little surprised because, you know, what would
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have brought it down?
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I don't know.
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11% fall.
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Anyway, we'll discuss that another time maybe.
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Viv, now all the big companies have come out with their results, all the big tech
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companies.
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Are there any on the fringes?
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of tech, the AI, big tech, the high tech, the companies that we can't even
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understand because they're so big.
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Any of the companies on the fringe that David has alluded to on many occasions,
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you know,
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the auxiliary industries even.
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I mean, AMD is not an auxiliary industry, but it came out with a sparkling set of
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results.
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And the share price, when I looked at it after a couple of hours trading, was up
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like 17%.
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Have you caught any results that have really said, this is a company that I need
19:17
to look at?
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I'm going to use a bit of a pun here, sparkling, use the word sparkling.
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I just thought of this company off the top of my head.
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I've heard of Toto Toilets.
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I know Toto Toilets, yeah.
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Go on.
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Yeah, Toto Toilets.
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Okay, so they make ceramics, of course, toilet ceramics, but ceramics also are
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used for making what?
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Computer chips.
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Ah.
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And this company is up 53% in the last, since the year to date, it's up 25%
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in the last five days, okay?
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Goodness.
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And where the real thing is happening right now is that because the demand for
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AI spending is so high,
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what you're really finding is, yes, we have NVIDIA up, we have AMD up, we have
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the Microns up, and Micron used to be one of the small guys in the past as well.
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What you're really finding now is a lot of these little tiny guys that are basically
20:07
out of nowhere, this little small little company that, or in this case, not that
20:09
small,
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but I mean, these little companies that are unknown,
20:13
but developed a huge amount of expertise in particular areas of science that now
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are suddenly very useful for
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AI or useful computers.
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These companies suddenly find themselves with monopoly pricing power and suddenly
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huge profits coming through.
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And I think that that's the kind of stuff that I think the next level is that you're
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finding these little tiny companies that are supplying into the
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ecosystem.
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And when you have these hundreds of billions being spent on AI, and suddenly
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you are making something that nobody else in the world can make,
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and it's essential to the AI ecosystem, suddenly you find yourself, like I said,
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doing 50%
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in the first four months or five months of the year.
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exactly the same.
20:46
Have you seen there's a big deal that NVIDIA has done with corning and one of
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the
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reasons and Viv's going to have to explain this, is that these very high level chips
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today,
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I mean, copper can't handle the speed at which they're processing and therefore it
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melts
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or whatever it is and they have to
21:08
use optics and corning is known for its optics and it makes the screens for Apple
21:14
computers, et cetera.
21:16
And NVIDIA is pumping in, I don't know how many billion, into, you know,
21:21
pumping into Corning, which is a, I think it's a New York City,
21:26
not New York State-based company.
21:28
We know Corning, Corningware, and all things like that.
21:31
But it's also an object of that.
21:32
Isn't that a kitchen product, Dave?
21:34
It's Corningware?
21:35
I think so, yeah.
21:36
I think it's all to do with the kind of ceramics that they make.
21:41
But I think that Corning is also...
21:43
I have to look at this now because I just saw it flash across the screen.
21:47
But I mean, and I couldn't understand the significance of how high speed that you
21:53
can't use
21:54
copper.
21:54
If you're going to use these chips, and I think this applies to the Rubin chips,
22:01
correct me if I'm wrong,
22:03
that they're going to have to use fiber optic.
22:06
They can't use copper.
22:07
So this fits in with what Viv has been saying.
22:12
But there is a deal with Corning.
22:16
I don't know how you two keep up with it.
22:17
You know what?
22:18
You must sit down every single day, and I'm talking to both of you now, and say,
22:23
right, where is it going to go?
22:25
We've got the big ones.
22:27
We've got the big 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 of these companies.
22:29
Now we have to find something else.
22:31
We have to find the next one that's going to go up 200%, 300% over the next five
22:34
years or something.
22:36
And then suddenly David says Corning.
22:38
Suddenly Viv's talking about toilets.
22:38
And it's incredible, the amount of effect.
22:41
It's spreading out.
22:42
It's like an airport being built.
22:44
And everyone says, do you buy the airlines or do you buy the airport company?
22:47
No, you buy the land around it because they're going to build hotels there and
22:53
there will be infrastructure and everything.
22:55
So it's exactly the same principle.
22:56
David, quickly go on before the markets.
22:58
Why I have to laugh at Toto
23:01
Toilets is that they make the Japanese toilets.
23:05
Oh, they're wonderful.
23:06
Have you...
23:08
Have you been to a Tokyo hotel?
23:10
No, no, but you can get them in America.
23:12
You can buy them there.
23:13
And you've got this, you can sit there and play with the buttons all day.
23:17
And it does all kinds of things.
23:20
No, it really is extraordinary.
23:22
I mean, when I first went to Tokyo and I saw the toilet, I had to phone down to the
23:29
reception to say, listen,
23:31
because, you know, they thought of you.
23:31
They thought I wanted the TV sorted down.
23:34
No, I wanted the toilet sorted down because it's incredible the stuff that it
23:40
does, and I don't even want to talk about it.
23:42
Anyway, gentlemen, the dollar round is 1634.
23:43
The British pound against the rand is 2225.
23:46
And the euro round is 1923. What else have we got?
23:52
Let's get on to the commodities now.
23:53
The gold price is up 1.25% to $47.47.
23:57
That's a $58 move to the upside.
24:00
And on the white metals, I've got platinum up 0.8%
24:03
at $2,079 an ounce and palladium down,
24:10
funnily enough, down 1.4% to $15.31.
24:14
Now, I'm going to go to the other commodities now because I have to talk
24:17
about copper.
24:19
because of the South African connection through Anglos and other things.
24:24
Copper 360, one of my stocks in the crystal challenge.
24:29
Copper is $6.16 per pound in New York at the moment on the Commodity Exchange New
24:36
York, COMEX.
24:38
It's up just a third of a percent.
24:39
What else have we got?
24:40
Of course, the energy sector.
24:43
It doesn't want to go down.
24:45
I don't know.
24:46
People don't believe Trump.
24:48
I think everybody on the trading floors or on the trading desks of oil
24:55
trading companies have a lot of salt there because they take everything with a pinch
24:59
of salt.
25:01
And Brent crude oil is only down two and two thirds percent at the moment at
25:05
$98.56.
25:07
OK, it's well off its highs at $20 higher, but it's still
25:11
70 percent higher than it was from the lows of last year.
25:14
West Texas crude, $92.41 per barrel.
25:17
which is down 2.8%.
25:20
The South African 10-year bond yield is an interesting one, 8.58%,
25:26
which is four basis points weaker.
25:29
That's the bond market going up, the yields going down.
25:32
The US 10-year, interesting one as well, 4.36%.
25:37
Doesn't really believe it was 4.45% a couple of days ago,
25:42
but that 10 basis points doesn't convince me.
25:45
S&P 500 futures, though.
25:47
Yeah, convinces me after last night's performance.
25:50
7,402 at the moment on the June futures, which is up 0.2%.
25:58
Bitcoin, I have to do that one, apparently.
26:01
It's dipped below 80,000, 79,826, down 2.3%.
26:08
David, I know you don't look at the JSE much until after hours.
26:13
Yeah.
26:14
But did you see anything that...
26:16
caught euro today otherwise i'll give you the top five bottom five oh no i'm looking
26:22
at them now obviously sassel has come down
26:24
dramatically over the last couple of sessions that's been down and the pressure
26:29
continues on
26:31
uh consumer stocks and on the banks even though the banks are slightly steady today
26:36
nothing
26:38
dramatic there but there is this worry about where rates are going and also the
26:43
health of the consumer.
26:45
And, you know, even though, Lindsay, even though you say that that oil has come
26:51
down, it's still
26:53
$90. That's what I said, it's still 70% higher.
26:55
Yeah, yeah.
26:56
And this is going to hurt us.
26:58
So I think there's still this deep fear about, you know,
27:01
what's going to happen to this economy and whether we'll be actually able to grow
27:07
this year.
27:09
So that pressure still remains on a lot of local stocks as well.
27:14
So, you know, that's dominating.
27:15
I think there are a lot more losers today in the market than there are gainers.
27:19
And what gainers there were came from the miners on that gold price that you
27:24
mentioned.
27:26
And that's where most of the action today is in that area.
27:29
Data tech up 6%, pan-African resources up 4.6%, harmony at four and a quarter,
27:34
Anglo gold three and three quarters percent higher on the downside, life
27:41
health care.
27:43
11% weaker.
27:45
Sassell down 6.25%.
27:47
Carew down nearly 5%.
27:49
MTN a 3.9% loser.
27:51
And that's it.
27:53
Viv, on the commodity side, and if you were looking at a commodity exposure on
27:54
the JSC,
27:55
you have to pick your commodity first.
27:57
I'm going to give you three choices.
28:00
PGMs, gold and copper.
28:06
Which one would you choose, Viv?
28:07
Given your AI experience and David talking about copper melting.
28:12
Look, I mean, copper is still going to be used.
28:13
It's just that we need to be, and this is mostly used for the high, you know, the
28:19
training stuff.
28:21
We need to have the huge data sets being transferred.
28:22
I mean, you don't really need those kind of like those kind of capacities when
28:28
you're looking at the infrared side.
28:30
And it's still going to come into play.
28:32
Copper is still going to come into play when you build the robots because fiber
28:34
optics does not do the magnetic stuff.
28:36
copper does to move motors and stuff.
28:38
When you're transporting electricity over large distances, copper is still going to
28:41
be there.
28:42
So copper, I think, is the industrial base.
28:43
I'm not that negative on gold.
28:45
I'm very negative on PGMs.
28:47
I think that what's happening right now with regards to the petrol price, et
28:53
cetera,
28:54
is going to push a lot of people to go towards electric vehicles.
28:57
And once you switch, I don't think you're ever going to switch back.
28:59
And the amount of demand for PGMs that goes towards fossil fuel driven vehicles
29:06
is the number one source of
29:08
demand for that group of metals.
29:09
So longer term, I think it's a bit of a dead spiral PGMs.
29:14
That's a nice way to end the show.
29:15
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time.
29:17
Wait a second.
29:18
I forgot the indices.
29:20
David, you said you were looking at the JSC.
29:22
Can you give us the closing indices, please?
29:25
It ended literally flat, I think, down.
29:27
12 points at 119, 154.
29:30
Miners were slightly better.
29:32
Resource index up just under 1%.
29:35
Financials also flat,
29:41
up 0.10%.
29:41
Banks slightly better as well.
29:43
And mixed performance in industrials with a negative bias.
29:48
Consumers up.
29:49
The broader financial industry, broader industrials were down.
29:53
I'm talking about the heavyweights.
29:55
Property down as well.
29:56
And it was there's quite a bit of trade taking place of 30 billion day to day.
30:01
Still a lot of speculation and trading around gold and the mining stocks.
30:07
But we ended flat.
30:09
Yeah.
30:09
OK, David, thank you very much for that.
30:11
David Shapiro is from Sasson Securities.
30:14
Viv, thank you very much as well.
30:15
Viv Govender is from Rands Swiss in Johannesburg.
30:18
And that was the five o'clock shadow.
30:20
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