Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Giants, Sons of Gods, and the Origin of Demons (ft. Doug Van Dorn)

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Giants, Sons of Gods, and the Origin of Demons (ft. Doug Van Dorn) · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy a Prophecy Watchers Podcast.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast today everyone a Monovinzalez here in
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Speaker 2: studio with Doug van Dorn who's written a book called
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Speaker 2: Giants Sons of the Gods. And welcome Doug.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, Bondo. It's gonna this should be really fun. Man.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've we've we've done a couple other programs and
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Speaker 2: had some great conversation about this topic. And uh, we're
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Speaker 2: right right out of the gate here, Doug. Where can
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Speaker 2: people find out more information about you and the ministry
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Speaker 2: you're doing and some of the topics you're discussing.
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Speaker 1: H Well, my personal website is Douglas van Doorn dot com.
0:37
Speaker 1: I used to have Doug van Dorn, but then I
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Speaker 1: was an idiot and let it go and lost all
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Speaker 1: that clout, So Douglas van Dorn So now that's just
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Speaker 1: my legal name, I guess. And so that's where you
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Speaker 1: can find my books. All my books are at Amazon. Uh.
0:51
Speaker 1: And then also Prophecy Watchers as well. Now and plot
0:53
Speaker 1: prophecy Watchers at least at least one of them, hopefully
0:56
Speaker 1: get so far in there exactly, and then uh, plug
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Speaker 1: our church the Reform Baptist Church in Northern Colorado, So
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Speaker 1: we're north of Denver, kind of in bolder between Boulder Longmont.
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Speaker 1: But on that website RBCNC dot com, we have almost
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Speaker 1: every sermon I've ever done, many many of them are
1:15
Speaker 1: in PDF and audio. And I know people can't believe this,
1:20
Speaker 1: but like, I'm kind of meticulous about my notes, even
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Speaker 1: with my sermons. It's kind of insane. And that's just
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Speaker 1: how I have learned to to remember where all the
1:30
Speaker 1: stuff is that I'm learning. And so those are all
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Speaker 1: free for people to download. So if you find a
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Speaker 1: weird topic that we're talking about and I've preached on it,
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Speaker 1: and chances are that it's there and you can go
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Speaker 1: look it up for free.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing too. So the work that you've done
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Speaker 2: here in the Giants book, you know, several hundred at
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Speaker 2: least footnotes where to me it's like, oh, this is great.
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Speaker 2: I have several of the underline I'm like, okay, this
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Speaker 2: is great, you know, So it's it's tremendous. So let's
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Speaker 2: let's let's jump right in the Genesis six narrative. It
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Speaker 2: kind of has become it's become more popular, for sure,
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Speaker 2: for sure, Yeah, for sure, But there still are those
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Speaker 2: kind of people love it or hate it, And I
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Speaker 2: like to I liked, let's get the foundation first, because
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Speaker 2: the next thing I want to talk about is those
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Speaker 2: that hate it. And that's good. We love them. They
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Speaker 2: are brothers and sisters and the Lord. That's fine. But
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Speaker 2: Genesis six as a foundational chapter, it appears right there.
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Speaker 2: Let's talk maybe briefly here, not even briefly, whatever, the
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Speaker 2: connection between what we see in Genesis three into Genesis six,
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Speaker 2: and then maybe even in Genesis fourteen.
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Speaker 1: Sure you know, I once listened to a guy giving
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Speaker 1: the whole Sethite theory view, and one of the things
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Speaker 1: he said about why he takes out of view instead
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Speaker 1: of the supernatural is that he goes, well, prior to
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Speaker 1: Genesis six, there's nothing supernatural in the whole Bible. And
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Speaker 1: I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. This is
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Speaker 1: literally what he said. I have you never read Genesis two?
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Speaker 1: Who do you think is walking around in the garden
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Speaker 1: with Adam and Eve? Have you never read Genesis three?
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Speaker 1: Who do you think that is in the garden with
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Speaker 1: the woman? You think it's literally a talking snake? Does
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Speaker 1: not the rest of the Bible tell you that it's
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Speaker 1: a supernatural entity. What do you think that that was
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Speaker 1: that he stationed at the door of the gate of
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Speaker 1: the Garden of Eden to charity. I mean, it's not
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Speaker 1: like this comes out of the blue. So there's your connection.
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Speaker 1: And then there's this prophecy in Genesis three fifteen of
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Speaker 1: this seed war that's coming. And so the seed of
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Speaker 1: the woman is going to crush the head of the serpent,
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Speaker 1: but he will bruise your heel. And so this has
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Speaker 1: to find its way playing out somewhere. So I think
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Speaker 1: it plays its way out on a spiritual and a
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Speaker 1: physical level. You know, spiritually Jesus talks about Pharisees are
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Speaker 1: children of the devil.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt.
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Speaker 1: So there's that party. But there's also the physical part
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Speaker 1: of it, right, that there are supernatural entities that take
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Speaker 1: physicality in. They eat with Abraham, they have their feet washed,
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Speaker 1: all kinds of things, that wrestle with Jacob. That's not
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Speaker 1: a metaphor. Yeah, it's a WWE match exactly. And so
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Speaker 1: you know that physicality starts being played out in Genesis six,
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Speaker 1: and that sets up the rest of the Bible for
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Speaker 1: that war.
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Speaker 2: You know, I think that's that's worth revisiting in the
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Speaker 2: sense that are restating because what I have seen, and
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Speaker 2: I've been addressing this in a different format, is that
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Speaker 2: exact thing is that, Hey, guys, Genesis, you can't have
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Speaker 2: it both ways. I think Hermaeneuticts is about being consistent.
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Speaker 2: I think that's probably the probably one of the greatest
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Speaker 2: categories is is this consistent? And so in Genesis three fifteen, oh,
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Speaker 2: well we have we have the physical seed of Eve,
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Speaker 2: which we know is the physical seed ends up in Jesus, right,
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Speaker 2: so and then all of a sudden zirah the Hebrew word,
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Speaker 2: It's like, okay, well here it means physical and over
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Speaker 2: here it means spiritual, because it is true in First
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Speaker 2: John it is right, you have the Hey, if anybody
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Speaker 2: sends are of the devil, they're the you know whatever.
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Speaker 2: So we're not, but we're not denying that there is
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Speaker 2: a spiritual component. You know that we are by nature
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Speaker 2: children of wrath Ephesians two, First John five, children of
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Speaker 2: the devil with their languages there. But now we're reading
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Speaker 2: New Testament theological language back on the Hebrew of Genesis
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Speaker 2: three fifteen, where now this is this is physical. We
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Speaker 2: have we're our physical world. There's people from outside of
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Speaker 2: the physical the world that we see that are interlopers
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Speaker 2: or they're they're coming into our world.
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Speaker 1: Right there.
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Speaker 2: Again, even Genesis three one, you have this creature that
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Speaker 2: took the form and the nahash, right, took a form
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Speaker 2: of a serpent whatever, but it was still physical. She wasn't.
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Speaker 2: It wasn't a vision, is what I'm saying.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, it wasn't just in her head.
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Speaker 2: It wasn't just in her head.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So we have this, uh in the Old Testament through
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Speaker 2: I think one of the interesting things is in Second
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Speaker 2: King six, we know the passage where Elisha says, Lord
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Speaker 2: open his eyes to the servant.
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Speaker 1: Right to see exactly.
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Speaker 2: So there's things that are that are there, but there's
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Speaker 2: there's this realm that's being blocked somehow. He was not
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Speaker 2: able to his eyes. Whether it's if we talk about
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Speaker 2: the electromatics spectrum that he's below visible site whatever. However,
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Speaker 2: it is a radio wave that we can't see is
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Speaker 2: just as physically real as the visible light spectrum of
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Speaker 2: let's say five hundred nanometers, right, So it's just it's physical,
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Speaker 2: just our eyes aren't enabled yes to see it, right,
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Speaker 2: so you have these other things that are happening. That's
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Speaker 2: why you need a radio telescope. It's still physical. So
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Speaker 2: to me this is fascinating. But you also have the
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Speaker 2: foundational thing of the foundational messaging, the theological messaging. Genesis
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Speaker 2: six there kind of lays there and then we see it.
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Speaker 2: How else do we see it in the sense of
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Speaker 2: the rest of the Old Testament narrative.
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Speaker 1: Well, like you said, Genesis fourteen sort of starts us
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Speaker 1: off because Abraham comes into the Promised Land and then
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Speaker 1: his nephew is stolen away and there's this war or
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Speaker 1: you know that's all going on there. Well, who are
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Speaker 1: these people of start looking into who these people are?
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Speaker 2: Faim right, they are.
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Speaker 1: They are giants. The whole thing is about giant clans.
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Speaker 1: And so that's actually telegraphing stuff that you'll find later
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Speaker 1: with Moses, because he starts fighting or hearing about these
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Speaker 1: exact same tribes, and in those contexts, it's very clear
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Speaker 1: that they're giant tribes. I mean, if the Ammonites and
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Speaker 1: the Mobites that are killing these very same people have
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Speaker 1: the zamzameme like they appear in both of these places, right, Well,
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Speaker 1: who are they? Well, they're giants. I mean, it tells
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Speaker 1: you that that's what they do.
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Speaker 2: Army two and three. If you're if you're listening to
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Speaker 2: this reading Army three, and.
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Speaker 1: You'll be like, what I didn't do? That was in
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Speaker 1: the Bible.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly that you will not. It's amazing, amazing how
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Speaker 2: Moses says, Yeah, these guys were there, but they got
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Speaker 2: you know, the sons of Esauch took care of them before.
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Speaker 2: We don't have to worry about those guys. But as
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Speaker 2: they come up from the southwest to the southeast, up
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Speaker 2: north into Bashan og talk about him for a minute.
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Speaker 1: Well, he's the king of Bashan. He reigns over the
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Speaker 1: whole area of Mount Herman, the whole area Bashon itself
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Speaker 1: can mean the place of the serpent. The watchers and
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Speaker 1: sons of God are serpentine creatures. They're actually depicted this
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Speaker 1: way in the Dead Sea scrolls and suit of Pigrifa.
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Speaker 1: So this is a guy who is the progeny, probably
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Speaker 1: very early progeny, we don't know how early it.
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Speaker 2: Tuck's been key of the refere the last of them.
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Speaker 1: He's the last of the ref ie am I mean,
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Speaker 1: so this is like somebody who's going way way back.
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Speaker 1: I mean, there's all kinds of funny legends about him
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Speaker 1: that he lived through the Arc, through the flood on
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Speaker 1: the Ark, no of fed him through a hole in
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Speaker 1: the ark and stuff like that. But yeah, so Moses
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Speaker 1: goes into this area that's controlled by him, and he
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Speaker 1: absolutely obliterates him because he would not let Israel pass through.
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Speaker 2: It's to me what to getting into some of the linguistics,
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Speaker 2: which I think is is fun for people, is that
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Speaker 2: what I have found is that if you look at
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Speaker 2: the first five books, you know, called the Torah, the Pentituke, whatever,
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Speaker 2: refaim has a very specific meaning to these physical these
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Speaker 2: physical giants. Now later, as we know, if you if
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Speaker 2: you look at it from it like what the scholars
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Speaker 2: will call a dia chronic perspective, later, refaem has way
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Speaker 2: different meanings. You know, the spiritual spiritual people goes the
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Speaker 2: other words it uses in the Book of Isaiah. But
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Speaker 2: if you look just in the Pentateuke, I don't see
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Speaker 2: any spiritual dead there. These are physical guys. Later again,
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Speaker 2: the word the word morphs in it. I think it's
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Speaker 2: referencing the same beings, but just a different aspect of
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Speaker 2: their location.
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Speaker 1: And their and their existence and their existence.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so refaem is is this word first appears in
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Speaker 2: Genesis fourteen, but it's foundational here right there because it
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Speaker 2: sets the tone. Let's in the last couple of minutes
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Speaker 2: here of this segment. How does this set the tone
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Speaker 2: for the rest of the Bible? Goliath and the Biblical history.
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Speaker 1: People don't realize it's a Fellows stations to in a
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Speaker 1: Bible study. And and just had brain surgery. And he
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Speaker 1: would fall asleep every time I talked about this subject.
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Speaker 1: We might talk about this later, about some of the
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Speaker 1: weird reactions people have to this. I mean, some people
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Speaker 1: get viscerally angry. And well, his reaction was to fall asleep,
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Speaker 1: and he wouldn't do this at other times. Finally, I
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Speaker 1: just looked at him, said, man, what are you doing?
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Speaker 1: What is your problem? He goes, this is just ridiculous.
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Speaker 1: And I said really, I said, don't you believe in Goliath?
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Speaker 1: He goes, well, yeah, I said, he's a giant, right.
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Speaker 1: He said, well yeah, I said, you ever looked at
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Speaker 1: his lineage? What are you talking about? Well? This got
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Speaker 1: him because he loves genealogist Okay, And I mean he's
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Speaker 1: one of those kind of science math that guys. And
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Speaker 1: he loves him, and so I said, we'll go look
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Speaker 1: into it. You'll find that he's descended from the refaem
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Speaker 1: who are nephelem yep. And as soon as I said that,
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Speaker 1: light light went off in his head and he clicked
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Speaker 1: on and he became the greatest apologists for giants that
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Speaker 1: I've ever seen. I mean, he just absolutely saw how
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Speaker 1: important the subject was.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that's that's that's often the case
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Speaker 2: if people can get over some of that initial reaction
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Speaker 2: non supernatural traditions that come in, because again, this is
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Speaker 2: a can of worms. It opens a can of worms
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Speaker 2: into understanding, well, how can angels angels? Matthew twenty two
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Speaker 2: to thirty says, the angels in heaven they don't. They're
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Speaker 2: not married or given a marriage. So clearly this is wrong.
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Speaker 2: Well maybe that's something we could talk about in the
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Speaker 2: next Here a second, let's do that right now. Actually,
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Speaker 2: so let's talk about some of the objections. And I
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Speaker 2: want to talk about the Sethi theory as well. But
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Speaker 2: Matthew twenty two to thirty, Yeah, Okay, clearly you guys
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Speaker 2: are off your rocker talking about genesis six, because Jesus
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Speaker 2: said angels in heaven do not marry or given a marriage. Therefore,
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Speaker 2: Genesis six is not about angels.
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Speaker 1: How do we receive I'm glad you quoted that properly.
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Speaker 2: Properly I can tell you did.
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Speaker 1: So it says angels in heaven. So's that talking about.
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Speaker 1: It's talking about unfallen loyal angels. Well, yeah, because they're
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Speaker 1: they don't want to send and that's why they don't
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Speaker 1: do this. That doesn't mean that they can't do it.
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Speaker 1: Why are angels called men? And why are men called men?
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Speaker 1: So there's one Hebrew word that we do not share
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Speaker 1: with angels, and there's another that we do share. So
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Speaker 1: all humans from Adam are called Adam, but angels and
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Speaker 1: humans are both called Esh. And that word esh is
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Speaker 1: always translated as men. And so when you look at
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Speaker 1: the Sodom and Gomorra story, for example, at one point
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Speaker 1: it says they're angels, at another point it calls them men. Well,
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Speaker 1: if they're men, and then they go into the town
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Speaker 1: and they want to have sexual relations with his daughters,
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Speaker 1: what do you think that that means? So those are
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Speaker 1: very clearly angels in that story. So to use Jesus
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Speaker 1: is in that sense is just completely taking him out
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Speaker 1: of context, and it's making it's making him say something
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Speaker 1: he doesn't fallen. The idea is that fallen, sinful creatures
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Speaker 1: did something that they're capable of doing, because they're even Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And secondly, I think if we go in handling that
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Speaker 2: objection of Matthew twenty two is you say, well, if
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Speaker 2: you look at second Peter two four in Jude six,
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Speaker 2: there the language is these these and they get a
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Speaker 2: lumps them into this category which we'll talk about some
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Speaker 2: hierarchy in a minute. But these angels that send left
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Speaker 2: their domain, they.
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Speaker 1: Left their realm, proper domain, their property.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they these angels that send were not like
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Speaker 2: the unfollowing angels in heaven that didn't leave their proper
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Speaker 2: domain in realm. And then go, as Jude says, to
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Speaker 2: commit sexual morality, just as sodommoor as strange or foreign
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Speaker 2: flesh or non consistent whatever, that's whatever, that that that nature,
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Speaker 2: they violated their nature by joining with this other nature.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a this works both ways. So you go
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Speaker 1: and read the law in Leviticus, and in chapters eighteen
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Speaker 1: and twenty especially are talking about these crossing over that
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Speaker 1: you can commit. Well, why would God forbid us from
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Speaker 1: necromancy and us from witchcraft, and us from contacting the dead?
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Speaker 1: Why would you do that? Because you can do that.
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Speaker 1: It's just that it's forbidden from doing yep. And so
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Speaker 1: that's their side of it is to come down here.
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Speaker 1: Our side of it is to try and cross over there.
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Speaker 1: And you know, we're seeing a whole lot of our
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Speaker 1: side of it. We're probably actually seeing a whole lot
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Speaker 1: of both of these sides these days.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems that again it's, as you mentioned, definitely possible.
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Speaker 2: And we talked about this yesterday just in the sense
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Speaker 2: of you know, God saying no, this is forbidden because
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Speaker 2: it will only lead to disaster, it will only lead
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Speaker 2: to deception, it will only lead to them gaining a
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Speaker 2: foothold into your life, and God saying it, use my people,
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Speaker 2: I know it's best for you. And therefore it's a
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Speaker 2: death penalty. We're in zero tolerance. And that's amazing because
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Speaker 2: God knows that. Again, you know, from we see this
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Speaker 2: with the psychics today, in my mind is that oh,
14:57
Speaker 2: well we're going to go. I'll bring up you know,
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Speaker 2: you know your and your boy that your child that
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Speaker 2: died and you're like, no, it's a lie. They're gonna
15:04
Speaker 2: come up and pretend to be the little boy. My
15:06
Speaker 2: sisters when they were younger, when I was younger, I
15:08
Speaker 2: had to become a Christian. They were playing with the
15:10
Speaker 2: Ouiji board and the Ouiji board. It was it was
15:13
Speaker 2: like a nine year old boy that was telling them
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Speaker 2: things that nobody could know. It was amazing. And they're like, no, no,
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Speaker 2: it's fine. I go, no, it's not. And they're going, well,
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Speaker 2: it's a nice it's a nine year old boy. I go, no,
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Speaker 2: This spirit is masquerading and getting you hooked in and
15:27
Speaker 2: of course you know, complete disaster after that. So to me,
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Speaker 2: it's like, yes, there's a spiritual realm and that's there.
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Speaker 2: They're trying to cross over and that's forbidden for. And
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Speaker 2: these loyal angels in Matthew twenty two are not doing that,
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Speaker 2: but others chose to.
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Speaker 1: Exactly.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's let's continue on with a little bit
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Speaker 2: of the objections, don't you know. Come on, let me
15:51
Speaker 2: inform you here. These are just these are just sons
15:55
Speaker 2: of Seth. This is this, These are Seth. That's they're
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Speaker 2: ungodly there, I mean the seth These were obedient so
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Speaker 2: of God that simply chose to look to go find
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Speaker 2: the most beautiful women, which just happened to be all sinners,
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Speaker 2: So now all sinners. So exactly, it's the Sethite theory
16:09
Speaker 2: that that's around. But I think people believe it just
16:12
Speaker 2: because that's what they've heard. Yeah, so how do we
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Speaker 2: how do we help bring them out of that tradition
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Speaker 2: and say, let's just read the text in one sense that.
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Speaker 1: The word tradition is interesting because a lot of people,
16:23
Speaker 1: I think, hold it because it's tradition. So one things
16:27
Speaker 1: that you can go after is the fact that this
16:29
Speaker 1: was not the tradition until it was changed to be
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Speaker 1: the tradition. So for longer than America has been a country,
16:37
Speaker 1: the entire church was uniform on believing the supernatural view
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Speaker 1: of this.
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Speaker 2: So let's explain that then the early Church, first three
16:46
Speaker 2: hundred years of the church, and we can talk about
16:49
Speaker 2: the Jews what they believe too. They believed in the
16:51
Speaker 2: supernatural view, which is what specifically just so people can cares.
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Speaker 1: So the supernatural view is that sons of God are
16:59
Speaker 1: heavenly being precision.
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Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
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Speaker 1: And sometimes you know, they're given other names. Watchers is
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Speaker 1: the one that you find, and that's a biblical turn
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Speaker 1: that comes from Daniel four. And these heavenly beings saw
17:14
Speaker 1: human women. And when you read the text very carefully,
17:18
Speaker 1: you see that that's what's going on, because it starts
17:20
Speaker 1: off that when man began to multiply and face the land,
17:23
Speaker 1: that word is not Ych, it's Adam. So when Adam
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Speaker 1: men humans began to multiply, daughters were born to them,
17:31
Speaker 1: not to not to Caine, but to.
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Speaker 2: Them, Adam's physical offspring, all of them.
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Speaker 1: All of them are having daughters. That's what it says.
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Speaker 1: And so those daughters that are being seen in the
17:41
Speaker 1: text have to be this daughters of men. That means
17:44
Speaker 1: whoever the sons of God are, have to be something else.
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Speaker 1: And of course we know that there's something else from
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Speaker 1: every other time that this phrase is used in the
17:52
Speaker 1: Old Testament, it always means angels. It's almost always translated
17:57
Speaker 1: as angels and the subtuagint.
17:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, really, Joe Blande to Joe thirty eight, You guys
18:01
Speaker 2: can look this up. It's very clear.
18:03
Speaker 1: So that's the idea, is that it's a supernatural and
18:07
Speaker 1: a natural mixing Heaven and Earth coming together creating this monstrosity.
18:13
Speaker 2: So let me interrupt for a second as well, because
18:16
Speaker 2: the idea that it mentions daughters females being now females
18:23
Speaker 2: are born to this special group of God's creation. Referring
18:27
Speaker 2: to Adam, Okay, yes, well, is there any evidence anywhere
18:32
Speaker 2: else that there's females in God's exist in any other
18:35
Speaker 2: beings He's ever created that have a female nature to
18:38
Speaker 2: them that we know about.
18:39
Speaker 1: This is an interesting question. I think it's debatable. My
18:43
Speaker 1: opinion is that yes, okay, and the reason why is
18:46
Speaker 1: just think about somebody like Ashirah. Ashurrah is a goddess
18:50
Speaker 1: and she's worshiped by Israel. She's not a god, she's
18:54
Speaker 1: a goddess. You have, I mean, you have all kinds
18:58
Speaker 1: of different entities, many of them are probably more demonic.
19:02
Speaker 1: So like the Lilith, right, uh, females is female. You
19:06
Speaker 1: got the stork women in Zechariah, those are those are females.
19:09
Speaker 1: But just the whole idea of a goddess worship that
19:12
Speaker 1: was so prevalent, especially in Israel in the North, which
19:16
Speaker 1: is interesting because this is kind of where the whole
19:18
Speaker 1: thing happened, you know, It doesn't answer the question about
19:23
Speaker 1: Genesis six and male and female, but it does tell
19:26
Speaker 1: you that there are probably female entities unless they're like
19:29
Speaker 1: masquerading is transit right, which.
19:32
Speaker 2: We do see that some trend stuff. But I guess
19:34
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is that if the angels in Heaven
19:37
Speaker 2: had female angels that were beautiful, then they wouldn't need
19:41
Speaker 2: to be looking at human human females.
19:44
Speaker 1: That that's kind of where I'm I see what you're saying. Well,
19:46
Speaker 1: they wouldn't need to.
19:47
Speaker 2: They wouldn't.
19:48
Speaker 1: Why do men lust and look at porn? I mean,
19:51
Speaker 1: they don't need to write because it's a sin.
19:53
Speaker 2: I guess it'd be interesting to see what a female
19:55
Speaker 2: angel could look like. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I
19:57
Speaker 2: might lust at that point, but hopefully not. But anyway,
20:01
Speaker 2: going back, you have the Seth I let's continue down that.
20:04
Speaker 2: I'm sorry for my interruption, but I'm just curious. So
20:07
Speaker 2: we're reading the text and where do people get Sethi here?
20:11
Speaker 1: Well, they get it from looking at later passages and
20:15
Speaker 1: reading back theology into Genesis six that I don't think
20:18
Speaker 1: you can justify doing just from the context. So you
20:21
Speaker 1: go to Ezra for example, when they when Israel comes
20:24
Speaker 1: back into the land, they start the Jews start marrying
20:27
Speaker 1: the Pagans of the country of the of the nations,
20:31
Speaker 1: and God gets furious at it. So that's believers marrying unbelievers. Well,
20:35
Speaker 1: so what happens is for whatever reason, that became the
20:40
Speaker 1: popular view of what's taking place in Genesis six. But
20:44
Speaker 1: like I said, that's anachronistic. I mean, that's something that's
20:46
Speaker 1: taking place way way later, and you just you cannot
20:51
Speaker 1: justify it in the language of Genesis six itself. It
20:54
Speaker 1: doesn't say daughters of Cain, it's just daughters of Adam.
20:59
Speaker 1: It doesn't say sons of Seth. It says sons of Elohem.
21:05
Speaker 1: So that's just what it says.
21:06
Speaker 2: I mean, if we really would have to be reading
21:08
Speaker 2: into it, the word Kine doesn't appear, it does not appear,
21:11
Speaker 2: the word Seth doesn't appear.
21:13
Speaker 1: And then, like you said earlier, what that does to
21:16
Speaker 1: all of these Sethites. They're all these godly How can
21:20
Speaker 1: they be godly if this is what they're doing? And
21:23
Speaker 1: then you think about what it says for only the
21:25
Speaker 1: daughters of of Cain, Like, none of the daughters of
21:29
Speaker 1: Seth are doing anything wrong. I mean just think about
21:32
Speaker 1: how bizarre this is in terms of a theology of sin.
21:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the theology of genetics or family lines. I
21:39
Speaker 2: think the other nature of theological kind of absurdity is
21:42
Speaker 2: that when do we have believers and unbelievers. You know,
21:49
Speaker 2: as a believer, if I was to marry a non believer,
21:51
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get a giant offspring. How does
21:53
Speaker 2: that come exactly?
21:54
Speaker 1: Well, that's the other thing is that people have changed
21:57
Speaker 1: the meaning of the word nephelem so that the word
22:00
Speaker 1: now it just means a fallen one. And they get
22:02
Speaker 1: that from something that seems reasonable. That there's a Hebrew
22:05
Speaker 1: word f fall that means to fall, and so nef
22:08
Speaker 1: following it seems like that could be reasonable them from Atlanta. Yeah,
22:11
Speaker 1: The problem is that we actually have an alternative spelling
22:14
Speaker 1: in the Bible in number thirteen thirty three that cannot
22:18
Speaker 1: account for that verbal use of that word or word
22:22
Speaker 1: is an oun, And the only explanation that makes sense
22:26
Speaker 1: is that it's actually an Aramaic word that was inserted
22:29
Speaker 1: into the text to help the people understand in their
22:32
Speaker 1: day what it means, and the word means a giant.
22:36
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, that's the beautiful thing, and you know, in
22:40
Speaker 2: the sense of Hebrew being you know, Hebrews. For those
22:43
Speaker 2: that don't know this, Hebrew has you know, three three letters.
22:46
Speaker 2: It forms most of their words, but then consonants and
22:51
Speaker 2: then in the middle you have all these different velves
22:53
Speaker 2: that can you know.
22:54
Speaker 1: That weren't written down until a thousand years ago, you know,
22:58
Speaker 1: because they just knew what they were. So these maps
23:00
Speaker 1: rights can they can put whatever vowels they want.
23:03
Speaker 2: We have like sing sng. I use this example, sng
23:06
Speaker 2: we have sing, we have song, we have sang, we
23:08
Speaker 2: have maybe if you sung, so we just by changing
23:11
Speaker 2: the vowels there. But it's a three letter route and
23:13
Speaker 2: that's how Hebrew works. So you can tell very clearly
23:16
Speaker 2: based on the vowel that's in there, whether it's a participle,
23:19
Speaker 2: whether it's a noun or whatever. And so Hebrew works
23:21
Speaker 2: this way. But to me, it's fascinating that if we
23:23
Speaker 2: just simply read the text, and let's let's remind people
23:26
Speaker 2: here that hey, in the first century, the time of Jesus,
23:30
Speaker 2: Jews or the Church, they all all.
23:33
Speaker 1: Believe one hundred percent that we know and also want
23:37
Speaker 1: to just point out the obvious here we have not
23:39
Speaker 1: gone to Enoch or jew believe or anything else to
23:42
Speaker 1: prove this. All we're doing is looking at the scripture.
23:44
Speaker 2: Yeap exactly. And so people say, oh, you know, the
23:47
Speaker 2: the greatest tradition. If you want to follow tradition to me,
23:49
Speaker 2: you go back to the first century and that's the
23:53
Speaker 2: oldest and then it changed and so you know, I
23:55
Speaker 2: think people need to know that that if you want
23:57
Speaker 2: to go back to the most ancient there's a good article,
23:59
Speaker 2: you know, the Ancient extra Jesus of the of Genesis six.
24:02
Speaker 2: It's very well done.
24:03
Speaker 1: There's actually a dissertation that's newer than that article by
24:07
Speaker 1: a scholar in the Netherlands or Belgium or something. I
24:10
Speaker 1: think he's a Dutch guy that I think is in Belgium,
24:12
Speaker 1: but his name is Yap Dodins did an entire dissertation
24:17
Speaker 1: on ancient ancient exte Jesus of this and it's online.
24:21
Speaker 1: You can go look at an academic Yeah.
24:23
Speaker 2: See this, this is this is the key is we
24:26
Speaker 2: we're not here to read into the text. And I
24:28
Speaker 2: think if you look at some of these other objections,
24:30
Speaker 2: they really don't hold water. And I think it it
24:33
Speaker 2: takes away from the rest of the narrative, which we're
24:35
Speaker 2: going to get to uh in a moment, but let's
24:38
Speaker 2: let's talk for now. The kind of a topic that
24:41
Speaker 2: I think is fun is non human. So in God's
24:47
Speaker 2: world we have humanity. So let's look at everything else,
24:50
Speaker 2: everything else, everything else that's not human. Let's talk about
24:53
Speaker 2: having a hierarchy. Okay, so what are some and there
24:58
Speaker 2: there's a distinction here as well. Well if people read
25:01
Speaker 2: into this. The Old Testament uses Hebrew language and it
25:05
Speaker 2: describes certain beings. The New Testament uses Greek language to
25:08
Speaker 2: describe certain non human beings, and sometimes they don't match perfectly.
25:12
Speaker 2: They're not contradictory, but it's in the sense of some
25:14
Speaker 2: are a.
25:15
Speaker 1: Little bit sometimes are generic specific.
25:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I think the New Testament's a little bit
25:19
Speaker 2: more generic in what I'm in my research. But let's
25:21
Speaker 2: talk about hierarchy. So you have God, He's he's he
25:26
Speaker 2: stands alone. There's nobody like him, Okay, number one number one,
25:31
Speaker 2: non God and non human? Who's number one on the
25:34
Speaker 2: can we know?
25:34
Speaker 1: And Okay, so this is interesting. The Canaanites actually have this.
25:38
Speaker 1: A guy named Lowell Handy I think was his name,
25:41
Speaker 1: put together in a book called the host of Heaven
25:44
Speaker 1: something like that, and he shows what the Canaanite hierarchy was.
25:49
Speaker 1: And so at the top of their hierarchy and their
25:52
Speaker 1: polytheis is l the Mighty.
25:55
Speaker 2: God create a creator kind of basically, well.
25:58
Speaker 1: He's he's probably the creator God, but he himself comes
26:02
Speaker 1: from someone else.
26:02
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is what's so they don't have.
26:05
Speaker 1: So what's important is that, yeah, he comes from someone else,
26:08
Speaker 1: but he's the high god of the Divine Council. Underneath
26:12
Speaker 1: him are the seventy sons of l and Asherah so
26:15
Speaker 1: Ashra is his consort. They have seventy sons, Bails one
26:18
Speaker 1: of them, Yam the sea god is one of them.
26:21
Speaker 1: These are the princes of the nations. Underneath them, I
26:25
Speaker 1: think that you have a craftsman the group, and then
26:29
Speaker 1: underneath them you have angels. And that's just simply word
26:33
Speaker 1: that means a messenger, even for Canaanites, so essentially had
26:36
Speaker 1: a four tier cosmology on the other side, right, Yeah,
26:40
Speaker 1: an angel is just a function that they they they
26:43
Speaker 1: go and give a message. Yep. So I think that
26:46
Speaker 1: the Bible mirrors this quite well, except at the top
26:51
Speaker 1: where Yahweh, who's sometimes called l even is the uncreated God,
26:56
Speaker 1: who has nothing that was before him. That's the key
27:00
Speaker 1: difference between Biblical religion and all other polytheistic religion Mormonism,
27:06
Speaker 1: than anything ancient Egypt, whatever. But under in the Bible,
27:10
Speaker 1: underneath God is the sons of God. So it's actually
27:14
Speaker 1: exactly parallel. And the sons of God are these guys
27:17
Speaker 1: in Genesis six. Why would they be the high the
27:20
Speaker 1: top because they're sons, sons of the Father. What would
27:22
Speaker 1: that make them if if the Father is the king,
27:24
Speaker 1: what would that make them princes? And so here they're
27:27
Speaker 1: called princes for example in Daniel ten right, Prince of Persia,
27:32
Speaker 1: Prince of Greece, Prince of Israel, Chief Prince, all this
27:35
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It's debated whether or not the Bible
27:39
Speaker 1: has the craftsmen, deity tier, but certainly underneath them we
27:43
Speaker 1: have the angelic tear. And in the Old Testament that
27:48
Speaker 1: word especially refers to a function, and angel is a messenger.
27:52
Speaker 1: My personal opinion is that at some point in time,
27:56
Speaker 1: as the language is moving into Greek and they're translating
27:59
Speaker 1: the stept two, that those translators chose the word angel
28:05
Speaker 1: to substitute for the sons of God, and.
28:08
Speaker 2: For a whole host of others they generic.
28:11
Speaker 1: It became generic, and people ask why that is, And
28:13
Speaker 1: I think it's for the same reason that I do it.
28:16
Speaker 1: Because when I tell somebody that there are gods in
28:19
Speaker 1: the Old Testament, they instantly freak out. But as soon
28:22
Speaker 1: as I tell them, well, they're just angels, they go, oh.
28:24
Speaker 2: Okay, pro spiritual beings. You believe in other spiritual beings.
28:26
Speaker 1: Somebody says, yeah, I don't think that there's anything new
28:29
Speaker 1: under the sun. And I have a feeling that those
28:31
Speaker 1: Jewish translators are like, yeah, angel is a good word.
28:34
Speaker 2: Exactly because well, let's let's talk about that for a minute,
28:37
Speaker 2: because that's true. The if you go into really we
28:41
Speaker 2: talked about this in different context earlier, going to the rabbis.
28:46
Speaker 2: They didn't like even the two powers, you know Alan
28:49
Speaker 2: sakall his books, you know, the two They moved away
28:52
Speaker 2: from that, the two powers that have an idea which
28:55
Speaker 2: shows you that there's these other, these other beings there. Yes,
28:58
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, we can't have brother Helohem. And
29:01
Speaker 2: so they then they made them judges, right, and they
29:03
Speaker 2: write judges human judges. So even they're they're they're they're
29:06
Speaker 2: they're looking at humanity, They're I don't know, they're trying
29:09
Speaker 2: to protect protect God. Let's say they are. But by
29:12
Speaker 2: doing that, they're removing they're violating really the text by
29:16
Speaker 2: trying to protect God. If they're if they're doing if
29:18
Speaker 2: that was their motive.
29:18
Speaker 1: And they're also destroying, well, first of all, I think
29:20
Speaker 1: it's I'm not going to attribute good motives to them. First,
29:24
Speaker 1: because they they Jesus. Jesus is very clear about what
29:27
Speaker 1: they did. They rejected him as their messiah, and he
29:30
Speaker 1: says they're sons of the devil and this will not
29:33
Speaker 1: be forgiven them. It's very serious.
29:35
Speaker 2: You're of the Father the absolute Joy.
29:36
Speaker 1: Because Jesus is the son of God. I think that
29:40
Speaker 1: that was where the attack took place. But it does
29:42
Speaker 1: something else that for Christians is really interesting because it
29:47
Speaker 1: destroys our ability to understand the sons of God worldview
29:52
Speaker 1: that's in the scripture. So there's a reason why Christians
29:55
Speaker 1: are called in Romans Galatians sons of God. And it's
29:58
Speaker 1: not accidental to the the whole sons of God in
30:01
Speaker 1: Genesis six. What it is is it's a reversal or
30:04
Speaker 1: a disinheriting of the heavenly sons of God and are
30:08
Speaker 1: replacing with adopted humans to take their place the Divine Council.
30:15
Speaker 2: Let's let's let's clarify that the sons of God. Would
30:19
Speaker 2: you say that there are in this Divine Council sons
30:22
Speaker 2: of God, that there are still some that are loyal,
30:24
Speaker 2: that all of them bail?
30:25
Speaker 1: No, Absolutely, there are some that are loyal, So we're going.
30:27
Speaker 2: To be a place in the ones that are disloyal.
30:29
Speaker 1: Disloyal, Okay, And yeah, I mean that. That's kind of
30:32
Speaker 1: an interesting question of the seventy ruling the seventy nations.
30:35
Speaker 1: Are they all evil? Probably? Are they all equally evil?
30:39
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think some of them are
30:41
Speaker 1: way worse than others, but they're all all those are
30:44
Speaker 1: being disinherited. But this wasn't like Plan B because Adam
30:48
Speaker 1: Adam in the Garden was put on the cosmic mountain,
30:52
Speaker 1: which is where the Divine Council was. He was given
30:55
Speaker 1: a seat at the table. And I think that the
30:57
Speaker 1: whole one of one of the main reasons for the
31:00
Speaker 1: fall is that Satan didn't like this. He don't want
31:03
Speaker 1: a ball of mud ruling with him. On this earth
31:07
Speaker 1: that he doesn't have any right to, and so he
31:09
Speaker 1: gets cast off the mountain out of Eden, and then
31:13
Speaker 1: God gives the nations over to these heavenly beings as punishment. Really,
31:18
Speaker 1: but the New Testament is all about the reversal of this.
31:21
Speaker 1: So when Jesus sends out the seventy Disciples, yeah, this
31:24
Speaker 1: is I mean, this is divine council stuff. I mean
31:27
Speaker 1: it is. And then they come back and like this,
31:28
Speaker 1: the demons are subject to us.
31:30
Speaker 2: In your name, right, that's amazing.
31:32
Speaker 1: So and then you know, Paul says things like don't
31:34
Speaker 1: you know you will judge angels? Well, what's it all about?
31:37
Speaker 1: That's a That is the reversal. This is this is
31:40
Speaker 1: these guys are being disinherited, They're losing their power, and
31:45
Speaker 1: at the end of the day Christ Church is going
31:47
Speaker 1: to be the one that that replaces it.
31:49
Speaker 2: You know, I want to revisit that because there's some
31:53
Speaker 2: interesting stuff that I'd love to talk about that this
31:55
Speaker 2: relates to the mission of Jesus as well and the
31:58
Speaker 2: New Testament. So going back to the hierarchy for a second,
32:03
Speaker 2: this is this is fun. We have this so from God,
32:07
Speaker 2: now you have the sons of God. This group of
32:09
Speaker 2: that are labeled sons of God in the Divine council.
32:14
Speaker 2: Where do the cheru beam and the seraphim who are
32:17
Speaker 2: labeled yeah, where do they they? They are loyalty, they're
32:21
Speaker 2: guardian something, they're guarding God something. Where where do you
32:23
Speaker 2: think they fit at in the hierarchy.
32:25
Speaker 1: So my opinion is that almost all of these terms
32:28
Speaker 1: except sons of God are and even that to some degree,
32:31
Speaker 1: are really functional terms. So a cherubam is a guardian,
32:36
Speaker 1: that's a functional activity. It doesn't necessarily tell us anything
32:39
Speaker 1: about what it's ontology is, what kind of a being
32:42
Speaker 1: it is, the same thing would be true for us seraphim,
32:45
Speaker 1: although that one is probably a little less functional. The
32:47
Speaker 1: seraphim is like a fiery creature. But they're also guardians
32:51
Speaker 1: of the throne in Isaiah six. So you know, over
32:56
Speaker 1: and over we hear about the host of heaven, So
32:59
Speaker 1: there's got to be all kinds of creatures. To me,
33:02
Speaker 1: the UFO thing could actually probably come into this, you know,
33:05
Speaker 1: the different types of beings that people report in upology.
33:10
Speaker 1: I don't have any problem with that. Just so as
33:14
Speaker 1: long as we understand that in the scripture, these entities
33:18
Speaker 1: are aliens, right, they don't belong here, They're not human,
33:22
Speaker 1: and they have a whole bunch of different functions that
33:25
Speaker 1: they do on scripture.
33:28
Speaker 2: So in the sense of if I was to we
33:31
Speaker 2: have in the New Testament the term archangel a couple
33:35
Speaker 2: of times. Yes, we have Michael being called the archangel
33:39
Speaker 2: and Jude, but he's also called one of the chief
33:40
Speaker 2: princes in Daniel ten, so that prince, so help me.
33:47
Speaker 2: We have so watcher sons of God, prince, chief prince,
33:53
Speaker 2: now archangel? Where do you put all them? At?
33:58
Speaker 1: Great question? It is hard, and part of it's hard
34:02
Speaker 1: because the Bible just doesn't say a lot. But we
34:04
Speaker 1: have a ton of speculation on these things that sometimes
34:08
Speaker 1: contradict themselves outside of the scripture. So, for example, you
34:12
Speaker 1: have these four archangels in Roman Catholic theology, right, Raphael
34:15
Speaker 1: and the the teenage mutant Ninja turtles, right exactly. And
34:21
Speaker 1: so the question is the Bible only talks about one archangel,
34:24
Speaker 1: only one Michael.
34:25
Speaker 2: It's all we get.
34:26
Speaker 1: And so are there other archangels? I don't know. I
34:29
Speaker 1: mean maybe, certainly, I believe there are loyal angels and
34:32
Speaker 1: they're very high up, and so I don't have a
34:34
Speaker 1: problem with that, but it's to me that remains speculation,
34:38
Speaker 1: just because I don't take those as inspired.
34:43
Speaker 2: So so hold on for someon. Let me let me
34:44
Speaker 2: clarify something we have. Archangel comes from the New Testament.
34:50
Speaker 2: In Daniel ten Hebrew, he Michael one of the chief
34:54
Speaker 2: princes plural, So if he's archangel in the New Testaments,
34:59
Speaker 2: we don't want to force we don't want to read
35:00
Speaker 2: it back onto the Old Testament necessarily. Sure, But would
35:03
Speaker 2: that mean that if Michael then has that office or
35:07
Speaker 2: function of being a chief prince, but that's plural in
35:09
Speaker 2: the Old Testament, but we see it once he's labeled archangel,
35:12
Speaker 2: would that mean or imply that there are other archangels
35:16
Speaker 2: even though they're not named because of that connection.
35:19
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have a problem with the seventy being archangels. Okay, okay, okay,
35:24
Speaker 1: I mean like that, that's it. Like I said, it's speculation.
35:27
Speaker 1: Michael is very interesting. I actually pretty strongly believe that
35:32
Speaker 1: Michael is Christ. Okay, Okay. A lot of people have
35:36
Speaker 1: a problem with this because Joeva's witnesses believe that they
35:38
Speaker 1: believe he's created right, but that's not necessary plenty of
35:42
Speaker 1: people in church history believe he's and.
35:43
Speaker 2: You wrote it just you wrote a book on this, Yeah.
35:45
Speaker 1: The Angel of the Lord. I wrote with a fellow
35:47
Speaker 1: pastor friend of mine, and he actually takes the opposite
35:49
Speaker 1: view on this. So we have a little appendix in
35:51
Speaker 1: the back where I get my argument. He gives his
35:53
Speaker 1: minor way better than his of course, or else you
35:57
Speaker 1: change the main argument that I use for why this
35:59
Speaker 1: is this is actually Daniel Daniel twelve because he's the
36:04
Speaker 1: Prince of Israel. Now it does say he's one of
36:07
Speaker 1: the princes, but okay, so what's there's seventy princes and
36:12
Speaker 1: Israel's the seventy first nation, right, but it's a special nation.
36:15
Speaker 1: And Deuteronomy thirty two nine is very important here because
36:20
Speaker 1: when it says that and the Lord's portion is Israel
36:25
Speaker 1: at Jacob is his inheritance, that has to mean that
36:29
Speaker 1: that Yahweh there is the son has to not because
36:33
Speaker 1: sons inherit things, not fathers. And so that means that
36:37
Speaker 1: the Son of God is the Prince of Israel in
36:41
Speaker 1: Deuteronomy thirty two nine. But that means that Michael has
36:45
Speaker 1: to be the same entity unless for some special reason
36:49
Speaker 1: Israel has two princes over it.
36:50
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well it is interesting too because you think in
36:55
Speaker 2: the sense of watcher, you know, only ap peers in
36:58
Speaker 2: Daniel four, at least in the Bible, and uh maybe yeah, maybe.
37:02
Speaker 1: There's some debatable uh, some other uses of it.
37:04
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I could see that.
37:06
Speaker 1: Uh.
37:06
Speaker 2: So you know, where where are they at in the hierarchy?
37:09
Speaker 1: I think that a watcher is a son of God,
37:12
Speaker 1: and I think that it's a it's another title of function.
37:14
Speaker 1: What are they In fact? I saw a movie, uh
37:17
Speaker 1: I think last night where they were talking about they
37:19
Speaker 1: just use a different word for watcher, like somebody who
37:21
Speaker 1: is seeing us or something like that.
37:23
Speaker 2: Here, you know, because what are they doing?
37:25
Speaker 1: And this is a lot what people report in the UFOs,
37:27
Speaker 1: like they're not doing anything, they're just watching it. Huh.
37:29
Speaker 2: That's interesting and we know that, you know, if we
37:32
Speaker 2: were again, we have brought up you know, but in
37:33
Speaker 2: that sense the sons of God in Genesis six, they're
37:37
Speaker 2: called watchers.
37:38
Speaker 1: In almost all the rest of the suit us that.
37:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're they're equating watcher with sons of God,
37:44
Speaker 2: which which is would be really fascinating.
37:46
Speaker 1: You know.
37:47
Speaker 2: Again, well, this is this I want to bring up
37:50
Speaker 2: another topic here, because we could be here all day,
37:52
Speaker 2: which is fun. But uh, the idea that this this
37:58
Speaker 2: generic flavor which I've seen and I try to help
38:02
Speaker 2: correct it if I hear it, that demons are simply
38:06
Speaker 2: just fallen angels. Again, fallen angels that means anything bad,
38:10
Speaker 2: and that's that's anything non human that's bad is a
38:12
Speaker 2: fallen angel. Again, very generic, very broad. But don't you
38:16
Speaker 2: know that those broad that very broad fallen angel being
38:19
Speaker 2: category whatever, those are just demons too, so they're kind
38:22
Speaker 2: of mixing them together. How do we you know, how
38:25
Speaker 2: do we correct that? So let's let's talk about first
38:28
Speaker 2: of all, does the Bible? Does the Bible alone, we're
38:33
Speaker 2: not looking anywhere else tell us exactly where demons come from?
38:39
Speaker 1: Does it tell us where demons come from? I mean
38:46
Speaker 1: not in so many words, but I think it's implied
38:49
Speaker 1: every time.
38:50
Speaker 2: That the se I agree with that. I think you're
38:52
Speaker 2: not going to come to a verse. It's going to
38:53
Speaker 2: be like, right, this is how Now, First enough, fifteen
38:56
Speaker 2: is very clear of how they came to be. That's clear,
38:58
Speaker 2: But biblically you're like no, but first NK. Really it's
39:04
Speaker 2: consistent with what we see. Yeah, but so let's talk
39:06
Speaker 2: about the distinction then, where why fallen angels are not demons.
39:12
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that.
39:13
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you understand Genesis six properly, then it's
39:18
Speaker 1: fallen heavenly beings that are called angels or sons of
39:22
Speaker 1: God or watchers. It's all synonym that see human women,
39:26
Speaker 1: and they produce offspring. Those offspring are the nepheline, these hybrids,
39:30
Speaker 1: the hybrids. Now, this again is universal. Everybody believe this,
39:36
Speaker 1: including the Greeks, although they didn't necessarily call them giants,
39:38
Speaker 1: but go read their stories of a demigod and that
39:41
Speaker 1: that's literally what they are they And it's not just there,
39:44
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the whole world believe this.
39:46
Speaker 2: Ain't near East, you name it, you go over.
39:48
Speaker 1: To South America, it doesn't matter where you're at, China.
39:51
Speaker 1: They all have the same idea that the demi gods
39:54
Speaker 1: are essentially these creatures that are we called demons. So
39:58
Speaker 1: what happens is that when a giant dies, you can
40:01
Speaker 1: read this and even in as well, Yeah, you can
40:03
Speaker 1: read it to some degree. In Augustine, although he doesn't
40:05
Speaker 1: take giant, but he's wrestling with this with this topic
40:09
Speaker 1: of what is a demon? Well, demon's a.
40:10
Speaker 2: Spirit of the air.
40:11
Speaker 1: Why it's because, uh, when it dies, where does it?
40:15
Speaker 1: Where does it? Where does it belong? It's from its
40:19
Speaker 1: fathers from heaven naturally, and it's mother from earth. So
40:23
Speaker 1: where does it belong? Well, it roams the air, and
40:26
Speaker 1: we know that it dies it had physicality and then
40:29
Speaker 1: it doesn't, but it has a spirit.
40:30
Speaker 2: As a spirit. Yeh. So just like in the flood,
40:32
Speaker 2: So let let's put the context. In the flood, you
40:34
Speaker 2: have normal humans that die, their spirit goes somewhere, you
40:37
Speaker 2: know Haiti's okay uh luke sixteen, you can look it
40:40
Speaker 2: up whatever. But then these physical giants that had a
40:43
Speaker 2: physical body, which are is drowned, their spirit also goes somewhere.
40:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, and where does it go? At roams the earth?
40:49
Speaker 1: That's essentially it that they don't belong to any place,
40:52
Speaker 1: So they haunt. And because they had bodies, they seek
40:56
Speaker 1: to be to be embodied, and angels never seek to
40:59
Speaker 1: be in bodied. Because they have bodies, they can.
41:01
Speaker 2: Pull and they whip it out. Right, it is eighteen nineteen,
41:04
Speaker 2: then we can whip it out exactly where in the gospels,
41:07
Speaker 2: just as Jesus said in Matthew twelve. They go around,
41:09
Speaker 2: they seek. When they become disembodied, they go and they
41:11
Speaker 2: come back to the you know, to the to the
41:12
Speaker 2: one that was there. They seek to be embodied. I
41:16
Speaker 2: mean even into the pigs that we saw. They didn't
41:19
Speaker 2: want to roam whatever, that whatever. That is a very
41:21
Speaker 2: interesting passage. But they seek to be embodied exactly.
41:24
Speaker 1: And yeah, so just just understanding the nature of an
41:27
Speaker 1: angel whining. When the angels come to Abraham and Genesis eighteen,
41:31
Speaker 1: one of them is the Angel of the Lord, and
41:32
Speaker 1: then the other two are the angels the Good of
41:34
Speaker 1: Sodom and Gomorrah. Well, he cooks a meal for them
41:37
Speaker 1: and then he washes their feet and then they have
41:38
Speaker 1: dinner together. Yeah, that does not happen with demons ever, ever, ever,
41:43
Speaker 1: because they're completely different. So I'm glad you brought this
41:46
Speaker 1: up because we were talking earlier that like, this is
41:48
Speaker 1: the one thing when I hear people talking and they say,
41:52
Speaker 1: I can let a lot of things slide, but when
41:54
Speaker 1: they say that angels and demons are the same thing, I'm.
41:57
Speaker 2: Like, no, they're not.
41:58
Speaker 1: They're They're literally different. Although I will say one caveat
42:02
Speaker 1: the word demon is sometimes used to refer to angelic beings,
42:08
Speaker 1: but it's not being used in a technical sense. It's
42:11
Speaker 1: being more used like we use it as as an
42:14
Speaker 1: adjective demonic.
42:15
Speaker 2: Demonic, Yeah, yeah, And what you see it's interesting too
42:18
Speaker 2: because in my research, if you go people can look
42:22
Speaker 2: this up, is if you look at classical Greek and
42:25
Speaker 2: you look at the word dimon or demonion, there was
42:29
Speaker 2: no not, there wasn't any necessarily evil reference. It was
42:33
Speaker 2: kind of lists of they're neutral, they were neutrals. Like
42:35
Speaker 2: it was like the word eloheem in the Middle Testament's
42:37
Speaker 2: just neutral. You're like, okay, so, but later now, certainly
42:41
Speaker 2: in the New Testament, that's not true.
42:43
Speaker 1: The test Testament really changes the way that this word
42:45
Speaker 1: is used.
42:46
Speaker 2: They're all evil, always, always evil. But again classical Greek
42:50
Speaker 2: not not the case. But in the same way, just
42:52
Speaker 2: in some of the Greek their own philosophies, they're just
42:56
Speaker 2: these spiritual beings, and.
42:58
Speaker 1: It's because the Bible's putting a a true spin on
43:02
Speaker 1: what they are. So you're a Greek and you don't
43:05
Speaker 1: know God and you're trying to mess around with these
43:08
Speaker 1: powers that you don't understand, and you see that sometimes
43:10
Speaker 1: they do good things for you. Yeah, and sometimes they
43:12
Speaker 1: are they do, they're really bad. And so that's just
43:16
Speaker 1: kind of the way a pagan mind would think, Well,
43:17
Speaker 1: what the Bible comes along and says, you need to
43:19
Speaker 1: understand who these creatures are. These are evil, unclean clean spirits.
43:24
Speaker 1: Why are they unclean? Because there's a mixing of kinds
43:27
Speaker 1: the same way that you're not supposed to mix two
43:28
Speaker 1: kinds of cloth together, or you know, mix so two
43:32
Speaker 1: different seeds in the same field. It's a mixing of kinds.
43:35
Speaker 1: That's what a demon is. And the Bible does not
43:37
Speaker 1: view that as a good thing because it's a perversion
43:40
Speaker 1: of creation.
43:41
Speaker 2: And you look at in Luke chapter eight, it's the
43:44
Speaker 2: it's a it's a place where demon and unclean spirit
43:50
Speaker 2: are shown clearly by Jesus' words to be synonymous. Yes,
43:54
Speaker 2: And so that that's that's important for people to see
43:57
Speaker 2: that there is this. I like that it's very helpful
43:59
Speaker 2: that the unclean nature of going back to the mixing
44:02
Speaker 2: of things in the Old Testament. And so as we
44:05
Speaker 2: think about this and we think about the ways in
44:09
Speaker 2: which it's it's it helps, it helps in some ways,
44:13
Speaker 2: but it doesn't. So another interesting passage that I find
44:17
Speaker 2: is in this again not biblical, but it helps shape
44:20
Speaker 2: it helps shape understanding. For example, I get two real
44:24
Speaker 2: quick examples. One if you, if anybody wants to read
44:26
Speaker 2: Enoch and you go to second Peter two four or
44:29
Speaker 2: Jude six, and you look at this language chains of darkness.
44:32
Speaker 2: You know where did Peter get this information?
44:35
Speaker 1: Right?
44:36
Speaker 2: And so you But if you read the judgment of
44:40
Speaker 2: the nepheline and the angels in first Enoch one through
44:43
Speaker 2: fifteen and sixteen, you'll see that it's he's pulling there,
44:45
Speaker 2: both Jude and Up, pulling it right out of the
44:47
Speaker 2: darkness language the change that you know, the change language. Okay,
44:50
Speaker 2: But in the Book of Jubileeze chapter ten, I think
44:54
Speaker 2: this is fascinating because Mastema, another synonym for.
44:58
Speaker 1: Satan, means hostility, a hatred. Yeah, this is what his
45:01
Speaker 1: name means.
45:02
Speaker 2: And he asks, hey, hey, hey, these demons that are
45:05
Speaker 2: that are wandering. You know, God was going to send
45:07
Speaker 2: them down to shale and get him out of the world.
45:09
Speaker 2: And he says, can I have ten percent right for
45:12
Speaker 2: my own purposes so I can tempt the sons of Noah, right,
45:16
Speaker 2: you know, and humanity and for whatever reason in the
45:18
Speaker 2: story I'm not saying it's true, but it's interesting.
45:20
Speaker 1: It is very interesting. God says, sure, Yeah.
45:22
Speaker 2: I'll give you ten percent of these demons, these these giants,
45:27
Speaker 2: that their spirit these these are the spirits of the giants,
45:30
Speaker 2: and now they're meant they're unclean and they're meant to
45:32
Speaker 2: torment mankind.
45:34
Speaker 1: It's funny that most people quote that from Enoch. So
45:36
Speaker 1: the fact that you knew Jubilees ten, like, that's on
45:39
Speaker 1: top of things. That's exactly where this comes from. The
45:41
Speaker 1: tenth idea is not found in Enoch.
45:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've never Yeah, that's the one place I've
45:46
Speaker 2: seen it.
45:46
Speaker 1: I've misquoted that myself. I'm like, and I don't think
45:49
Speaker 1: that's an Enoch. I'm I I keep I can't find it.
45:51
Speaker 1: I can't. But it's in Jubileese. Yeah.
45:53
Speaker 2: So it's amazing that you have this language that's being
45:56
Speaker 2: written there, and the apostles they're living in this world.
46:01
Speaker 2: These are the things that are that are shaping there.
46:04
Speaker 2: They're they're thinking. So when they when they can write
46:06
Speaker 2: second Peter two or Jude six, again, we ask where
46:10
Speaker 2: is Peter getting this information about chains right and darkness?
46:13
Speaker 2: And you go, well, there's only one place that would
46:15
Speaker 2: be that we know of, at least now, at least
46:18
Speaker 2: what we have is extant literature.
46:21
Speaker 1: Peter Jude doesn't do this. But Peter uses the word
46:24
Speaker 1: to Taro's for where they went. Well, that's straight up
46:28
Speaker 1: Greek mythology hesiod stuff.
46:30
Speaker 2: Yep.
46:31
Speaker 1: So uh, And that's the only time that that word
46:34
Speaker 1: appears in the New Testament. It appears a couple of
46:36
Speaker 1: times in the Old and the septuagen the only time.
46:39
Speaker 1: So why didn't he choose to say hades? Why didn't
46:42
Speaker 1: he choose gehenna? Yep, Like, there's a reason for that.
46:45
Speaker 1: And it's because this is where the Watchers or the
46:49
Speaker 1: Titans were in chain in prison in the time of
46:53
Speaker 1: the flood and it and everybody knew the story.
46:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know. So I think it's interesting to
47:00
Speaker 2: you that in one of the classes I taught was
47:03
Speaker 2: you know, we know that Tewod, Peter and Jude are
47:06
Speaker 2: the context is against false teachers. Yeah, okay, you know, hey,
47:10
Speaker 2: these teachers, you know they're gonna get judged. Don't worry,
47:12
Speaker 2: don't worry, don't worry. Just as and so in the
47:15
Speaker 2: context of judge false teachers being judged both of them
47:19
Speaker 2: bring up and the angels who sinned, and you're like, well,
47:23
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why would he bring up angels sinning
47:25
Speaker 2: in the context of false teaching. But yet if we
47:26
Speaker 2: go to the Book of Enoch, we see that that's
47:29
Speaker 2: exactly what these false teachers were doing.
47:31
Speaker 1: And I love, I love doing literary deep dives, and
47:33
Speaker 1: I'm preaching through Luke right now. And in Luke eleven
47:37
Speaker 1: they're ten and eleven. There is four parallel units, and
47:42
Speaker 1: two of the parallel units are the climax, and one
47:45
Speaker 1: of them is the Demon's story with Bale's above and
47:49
Speaker 1: parallels the Pharisees and Jesus pronouncing all the woes on them.
47:56
Speaker 1: It's conceptually, it's exactly what you and Peter are doing,
48:01
Speaker 1: because they're taking false teachers and they're connecting them theologically
48:06
Speaker 1: to the absolute worst supernatural renegades that have ever existed yep.
48:12
Speaker 2: In the and in the context of teaching forbidden knowledge, right,
48:15
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess you know they're teaching them things
48:17
Speaker 2: about war and we're not allowed. And you're like, these,
48:20
Speaker 2: these these fallen sons of God were teachers and they
48:23
Speaker 2: were coming down and whatever that looks like exchanging forbidden
48:27
Speaker 2: knowledge when they shouldn't have. And God said, that's again,
48:29
Speaker 2: that wasn't for them to know, and they did, and
48:31
Speaker 2: whatever they traded, they got a wife out of it.
48:33
Speaker 2: That in that sense. Well, let's for this last segment here,
48:38
Speaker 2: how does Genesis six, I mean Genesis we have Genesis three.
48:45
Speaker 2: We talked about the seed contempt to Genesis six, and
48:48
Speaker 2: then let's bring it right in. Let's bring Jesus and
48:51
Speaker 2: even a little bit maybe in John ten, Jesus is
48:54
Speaker 2: quoting Psalm eighty two. Let's talk about that in the
48:56
Speaker 2: sense you know, and and why they that that really
48:58
Speaker 2: roughed them up. They they didn't like that idea. How
49:01
Speaker 2: does that the whole theology of the Divine Council in
49:05
Speaker 2: Genesis six, Domy thirty two, all of it, it's all
49:08
Speaker 2: mayby two come into play in the mission of Jesus,
49:11
Speaker 2: and he doesn't reveal everything, but there's at the end
49:14
Speaker 2: in John ten, he's saying, hey, this is this is
49:16
Speaker 2: what's going on. Yeah, and his mission, let's talk about that.
49:20
Speaker 1: So it's very important to understand John is the one
49:22
Speaker 1: first of all writing John ten obviously to state a tetology.
49:26
Speaker 1: But I say that because he's the one who begins
49:29
Speaker 1: his gospel. Within the beginning was the logos, and then
49:33
Speaker 1: he starts talking about the name and the glory in
49:36
Speaker 1: that very same place, and he says, he says that
49:41
Speaker 1: people knew him, but they did not worship him. And
49:46
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, oh, well, that's talking about
49:48
Speaker 1: Jesus when he came in the flesh shop and earlier
49:50
Speaker 1: in his No, it's talking about the Old Testament. That's
49:54
Speaker 1: why he's used in the language. So very important to
49:58
Speaker 1: know that because John's Gospel is set up exactly the
50:01
Speaker 1: question that you just ask. Throughout the gospel, Jesus starts
50:04
Speaker 1: using all these words and terms that were used in
50:09
Speaker 1: the Old Testament for the second power in heaven, the
50:12
Speaker 1: son of Man, the son of God. So that's in
50:15
Speaker 1: chapter ten, it's the son of God language. And we've already,
50:18
Speaker 1: you know, we've been talking about the sons of God.
50:21
Speaker 1: And in when he says this to the to the
50:25
Speaker 1: Pharisees and he's like, hey, you know, even your law
50:28
Speaker 1: says that there are gods. Where does he get that from? Well,
50:32
Speaker 1: it's not coming from the pentitouke, It's coming from Psalm
50:36
Speaker 1: eighty two. And sometimes the Psalms. Sometimes the entire Old
50:40
Speaker 1: Testament's called the Law. Yeah, that's just the way it is.
50:42
Speaker 1: And so he's quoting Psalm eighty two six there, and
50:47
Speaker 1: if you understand the context of the whole psalm, it
50:51
Speaker 1: starts in the ESV Great translation, God is in the
50:55
Speaker 1: midst of the Divine council, in the in the midst
50:57
Speaker 1: of the Gods and the Divine Council, he's judging them.
51:01
Speaker 1: And then that language sons of God that he quotes
51:06
Speaker 1: is one of those ten or so stock phrases of
51:09
Speaker 1: that terminology that goes back to Genesis six, that there
51:12
Speaker 1: are heavenly beings called sons of God, one of which
51:16
Speaker 1: in Deuteronomy thirty two nine is called Yahweh. And he
51:21
Speaker 1: inherits Israel. That's his portion, that's the language of it.
51:27
Speaker 1: And this is very important to Psalm eighty two because
51:30
Speaker 1: the last verse of Psalm eighty two, verse eight is
51:33
Speaker 1: a rise o Eloheim, and you will inherit the nations
51:37
Speaker 1: or whatever. That language comes right out of Psalm two.
51:40
Speaker 1: Psalm two is like, hey, ask of me, and Psalm
51:43
Speaker 1: eighty two is, now I'm going to give them to you,
51:45
Speaker 1: yep ta. And so in the last verse elohem, well
51:49
Speaker 1: who's that? Well, he's one of the sons of God.
51:53
Speaker 1: And who are those Those are the guys from verse
51:55
Speaker 1: one that are in the Divine Council. So Jesus quotes this,
51:59
Speaker 1: and it blows my mind that people interpret this naturally
52:04
Speaker 1: as human rulers, as if Jesus is saying, Hey, Pharisees,
52:07
Speaker 1: doesn't your own Bible say that you're a god? Why
52:11
Speaker 1: can't I be a god too? Exactly like that, what
52:14
Speaker 1: as soon as they hear it, They're like, they want
52:16
Speaker 1: to stone him for blasphemy.
52:18
Speaker 2: They'd be like, oh, so, what you're making yourself to
52:21
Speaker 2: be a human judge like what Moses says exactly, He's like, no,
52:23
Speaker 2: I'm way. They wouldn't stone him for that.
52:25
Speaker 1: They wouldn't study. All it does is make them more angry.
52:29
Speaker 1: And then and then, just for good measure, he jabs
52:31
Speaker 1: him and he goes, I and the Father are one.
52:34
Speaker 1: In other words, I'm different than they are. There's something
52:37
Speaker 1: about me that's unique. I am the second Power. That's
52:40
Speaker 1: what they're saying. And they know full well what he's saying,
52:43
Speaker 1: as do a whole bunch of other people, because guess
52:45
Speaker 1: what they convert to Christianity. A question people don't ask
52:49
Speaker 1: themselves of the modern jew is. How could somebody who's
52:52
Speaker 1: a Unitarian ever even contemplate Christianity. Doesn't make any sense
52:59
Speaker 1: because they can't be a guy who's God and equal
53:02
Speaker 1: with God if you're a Unitarian, can't make sense. But
53:05
Speaker 1: if there's something in their theology that allows for that
53:09
Speaker 1: which the entire Old Testament does, ye clearly and they
53:12
Speaker 1: knew it. And many, many Jews and Rabbis are converting.
53:17
Speaker 1: This what the Book of Hebrews is all about. So
53:18
Speaker 1: I called it Hebrews right yep. If you if you
53:23
Speaker 1: find this guy deeply offensive and in fact ruining your
53:27
Speaker 1: religion and your power, I guess what you're going to do.
53:29
Speaker 1: You knew everything in your power to stop that from happening.
53:32
Speaker 2: Well, And and so going back the we mentioned earlier too,
53:35
Speaker 2: is you know Alan Seagall's book, You know the Two
53:37
Speaker 2: Powers of Heaven. What he does there, and you know this,
53:41
Speaker 2: But for those that don't, is he's he's highlighting. Hey, hey,
53:44
Speaker 2: this was part of the original view. And and so
53:47
Speaker 2: the Rabbis came along and basically did revision. They were
53:51
Speaker 2: revisionists par excellence at trying to remove the language even
53:55
Speaker 2: I would say, even in the in the in the
53:57
Speaker 2: actual text of scripture many times, to remove this idea
54:02
Speaker 2: that there was ever any even possibility of Daniel seven
54:05
Speaker 2: and others.
54:05
Speaker 1: You know, absolutely, you know.
54:07
Speaker 2: It's it's fascinating that they're revisionists.
54:10
Speaker 1: They did some crazy things, Mondo. One of them is
54:13
Speaker 1: that they and people wouldn't say, well that, like, what
54:16
Speaker 1: does that matter? In the genealogies after the flood between
54:20
Speaker 1: Noah and Abraham, the Hebrew masoitik has a certain number
54:25
Speaker 1: of years and the subtuagen has six hundred and fifty
54:28
Speaker 1: more years in it. Well, why how do you just
54:32
Speaker 1: drop the word one hundred out of six or seven
54:36
Speaker 1: guys in a genealogy? I can tell you why. It's
54:38
Speaker 1: because the rabbis started claiming that Melchizedek was shim yep exactly, Well,
54:44
Speaker 1: what do you mean shim? Well, Hebrews comes along and says,
54:47
Speaker 1: Melchizedic doesn't have a genealogy, he doesn't have a father
54:50
Speaker 1: or a mother, and the Dead Sea scrolls. There was
54:53
Speaker 1: all this speculation of view that Melchizedic was essentially the
54:56
Speaker 1: prince of Israel and that Abraham is bowing down of
55:00
Speaker 1: the Prince of as a Christian, I would say he's Christ.
55:03
Speaker 1: And so they knew this, and so one of the
55:05
Speaker 1: things they did was, hey, let's just get rid of
55:08
Speaker 1: six hundred years and all of a sudden, Shem now
55:10
Speaker 1: overlaps and we can say Shim is Melchizedec. Problem solved.
55:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, because before Shim would have died way really early
55:19
Speaker 2: before Abram came along. And then all of a sudden,
55:21
Speaker 2: because again, if you look at the Masotic there is
55:23
Speaker 2: there is that difference, especially the time of the flood
55:26
Speaker 2: and everything else. And but what's interesting too is in
55:28
Speaker 2: thinking about that, when you look at the chronology or
55:31
Speaker 2: the the the Samaritan Pentateuch, Josephus and the septuagen all
55:36
Speaker 2: line up against what we understand as the Masterotic text
55:39
Speaker 2: today and even some others that come later, and you're like,
55:42
Speaker 2: they did something, but they did it in order to
55:44
Speaker 2: repudiate the claim of Jesus's superiority. Again, it was all
55:48
Speaker 2: anti Jesus, no doubt.
55:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want I want to make I don't get
55:51
Speaker 1: to plug these books very often. I did. I put
55:54
Speaker 1: three old Puritans into modern Englis and put a whole
56:01
Speaker 1: bunch of notes in them, some people don't understand they are.
56:03
Speaker 1: And I put this in my Christ in the Old
56:04
Speaker 1: Testament series because I wanted people to see that essentially,
56:08
Speaker 1: the Puritans knew exactly what Alan Segal finally figured out
56:11
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy seven, but they knew it in the
56:14
Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen hundreds. And they're talking about two powers. They're
56:18
Speaker 1: talking about the memo, the logos, the name, the glory,
56:21
Speaker 1: the whole deal. And they talk even about how the
56:25
Speaker 1: early Christians knew what the rabbis had done to the text,
56:29
Speaker 1: and they're writing this apologetic against it, saying, look, the
56:32
Speaker 1: Christ is here in the Old Testament, and it's amazing
56:37
Speaker 1: the things that we've forgotten.
56:38
Speaker 2: Where did the in the sense of the Puritans, where
56:40
Speaker 2: were they getting their source material from?
56:42
Speaker 1: Well, those guys were so genius. One guy, Alex Peter
56:47
Speaker 1: Alex is his name, a totally obscure guy, wrote this
56:50
Speaker 1: book and a little dissertation of it at the end
56:55
Speaker 1: on the Angel, and that's what I put into a
56:57
Speaker 1: book for him. And this guy, when you read him,
56:59
Speaker 1: you're like, knows English, French, Spanish, German, Hebrew, Greek, Latin,
57:08
Speaker 1: and he had you know, they have access to Oxford
57:10
Speaker 1: and share all these books. And I don't know how
57:13
Speaker 1: they did it, but they did it. They did it,
57:15
Speaker 1: and they just knew. They knew what every Jew and
57:18
Speaker 1: the twelve hundreds was writing. They knew what Jews and
57:20
Speaker 1: the seven hundreds are writing, they knew what every church
57:23
Speaker 1: father was writing. And they're just able to pull these
57:25
Speaker 1: things and bring them together. Yeah. I mean I can't
57:28
Speaker 1: even do it. I can barely do that with Google books, right,
57:31
Speaker 1: And they're doing it in a library where they have
57:33
Speaker 1: to go look them up.
57:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can just pull it up and have
57:36
Speaker 2: them all open and tabs, just put it all the
57:38
Speaker 2: way along. So we come back. So, let's so Jesus
57:43
Speaker 2: comes and Jesus declares himself to be really the leader
57:46
Speaker 2: of the Divine Council. He's the He's not just a
57:48
Speaker 2: son of God, he is the son of God.
57:50
Speaker 1: And even better, he's the son of Man. Well why
57:53
Speaker 1: does that matter? Well, we talked earlier about how the
57:55
Speaker 1: Sons of God is title and language that comes to Christians.
58:00
Speaker 1: So it only comes to Christians as they're in Christ
58:02
Speaker 1: because Christ is the second atom. So if Adam was
58:05
Speaker 1: originally given a seat on the Divine Council and he
58:08
Speaker 1: was kicked off. That means is that God originally planned
58:12
Speaker 1: for us to at least co rule with them. And
58:15
Speaker 1: so it's not enough for the Angel of the Lord
58:19
Speaker 1: to be God and to defeat them in having like
58:22
Speaker 1: Michael casting out the dragon. What I think that is,
58:25
Speaker 1: he has to actually become a human, and he has
58:27
Speaker 1: to do the things that Adam fell short of. And
58:31
Speaker 1: you know, there's a whole thing with the three temptations
58:33
Speaker 1: of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that
58:35
Speaker 1: are then replayed with Israel in the Wilderness, and then
58:39
Speaker 1: they're played again with Jesus and the temptation. And that's
58:43
Speaker 1: very deliberate because Jesus is now obeying the law where
58:50
Speaker 1: all other men in all the other covenants have fallen short.
58:53
Speaker 1: And because he takes it all the way to death,
58:56
Speaker 1: even death on the cross and becoming a curse and
58:58
Speaker 1: a sacrifice and the whole deal, he then wins the
59:01
Speaker 1: right to regain that position as the second Adam on
59:06
Speaker 1: the council. And then in just God's grace, he adopts
59:12
Speaker 1: evil wicked Jews and Gentiles and saves them and brings
59:17
Speaker 1: them into the into this family calling us sons and
59:21
Speaker 1: giving us a right to sit at the table of
59:23
Speaker 1: the divine council. I mean, it's absolutely incredible.
59:26
Speaker 2: Well, and so it brings up Hebs two where yeah,
59:30
Speaker 2: that language where he's gonna speak about us and where it.
59:35
Speaker 1: Says sings of his brothers or something like that, the
59:38
Speaker 1: song twenty two stuff.
59:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's quoted in the book. Here's really he's
59:42
Speaker 2: gonna he's gonna sing of he's gonna he's gonna call
59:44
Speaker 2: its brother But in the midst of the council, he's
59:46
Speaker 2: gonna speak of us, and he's gonna say, hey, I
59:48
Speaker 2: got the renegades, and I've paid for him and they had.
59:51
Speaker 2: Now that we're coming in, as we said in First
59:52
Speaker 2: twenteen sixth three, that we're gonna judicate the angels, we're
59:55
Speaker 2: gonna judicate the world. We're gonna judge the world. We're
59:56
Speaker 2: going to rule and reign with him. We're gonna Roman's
59:59
Speaker 2: eight seventeen that if we suffer with him, will be glorified,
1:00:02
Speaker 2: that we're joint heirs. We have all these rich promises,
1:00:04
Speaker 2: which again, this is why I see the problem sometimes
1:00:09
Speaker 2: is that in the New Testaments, which is not a
1:00:12
Speaker 2: problem but the Sons of God language, as you mentioned
1:00:14
Speaker 2: in Galatians and Romans, is then forced back on the
1:00:18
Speaker 2: Old Testament, and you're like, well, wha, whoa.
1:00:19
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, and that's what they're That's what they're missing,
1:00:22
Speaker 1: is that is that it hasn't happened yet.
1:00:25
Speaker 2: No, but it will happen. Yeah, thet was shaped the
1:00:28
Speaker 2: New test exactly right.
1:00:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a there's a whole plan of
1:00:31
Speaker 1: redemptive history that has to unfold before we can become
1:00:35
Speaker 1: sons of God. So to read that back in is
1:00:37
Speaker 1: essentially to put the cart before.
1:00:39
Speaker 2: The horse, exactly. And they don't know that because the
1:00:41
Speaker 2: right You're like, no, you're trying to humanize the sons
1:00:43
Speaker 2: of God's reality that these sons of God were rulers,
1:00:45
Speaker 2: they're on the Divine Council, and we get that.
1:00:48
Speaker 1: Right, it will happen, will just not yet? Yes?
1:00:51
Speaker 2: For humans? Well, Doug, this has been this has been
1:00:53
Speaker 2: awesome giants, sons of the Gods. I mean, this is
1:00:56
Speaker 2: a tremendous work. I hope everybody gets it. And I
1:01:00
Speaker 2: again tell people where they can find it, well the
1:01:01
Speaker 2: last time where they can.
1:01:02
Speaker 1: Find well at Amazon. You beinning book that I have
1:01:04
Speaker 1: on Amazon. I think I've done like ten books or something,
1:01:07
Speaker 1: and then a few of those that we talked about
1:01:08
Speaker 1: with the Puritans, and and just you know, trying to
1:01:11
Speaker 1: give people good theologies what I'm trying to do. But
1:01:14
Speaker 1: I dabble in normal things and I dabble in uh,
1:01:17
Speaker 1: this kind of strange fun world too.
1:01:19
Speaker 2: I would not call this dabbling. I would say that
1:01:22
Speaker 2: you're you're.
1:01:22
Speaker 1: In deep man on this I probably am so Douglas
1:01:26
Speaker 1: Vandorn dot com and Douglas Vandorn dot com.
1:01:29
Speaker 2: Awesome what everybody, Thanks for listening today. I hope you
1:01:31
Speaker 2: enjoyed this podcast. We got into some good deep stuff
1:01:35
Speaker 2: and again continue to encourage you to look at doug
1:01:38
Speaker 2: stuff because you can go even deeper. So appreciate you
1:01:40
Speaker 2: listening today and catch us next time.