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Israel Palestine: is a two-state solution still possible? · The Fourcast

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There is no other option. Rather than the two state
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solution. The alternative is constantly
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war. Let us agree about the rights of
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the two people. The only group that has the
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right to exercise some determination is the Jewish
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people. What about me?
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Why I have to be second class citizen?
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Hassan is talking all the time using the phrases genocide and
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apartheid. I think you're using phrases
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that are just being bandied about without anybody knowing.
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What genocide? Is no Anybody knows?
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Well, it's been defined now. Mass killing of people, mass
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destruction of infrastructure of people, this is.
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Genocide 2. State solution is really
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drowning in the details as nobody can agree on what you're
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actually talking about. If there is a step towards
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progress, what is the next step you think is achievable?
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Hello and welcome to a special extended forecast, a more cast
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if you like, which is coming to you from the King David Hotel in
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Jerusalem, one of the most famous hotels in this city.
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It's historic. It was once the base of the
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British Palestine Mandate before the creation of Israel.
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And we are here because we have recently had AUN General
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Assembly resolution passed calling for A2 state solution
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sponsored by Saudi Arabia and France.
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We are seeing Britain, France, Belgium, Canada, Australia all
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going through the process of recognising A Palestinian state,
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whatever that may mean, while the American say that state is
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in fact no nearer to reality. But all of those countries also
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talk about a two state solution, whereas in Israel, in this
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country, the government rejects the idea of A2 state solution.
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Hamas in Gaza have also traditionally rejected the idea
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of A2 state solution. So what does it mean?
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Is it realistic? Is it possible?
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What are the obstacles? We have an eminent panel with us
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here today in Jerusalem. Alan Baker is from the Institute
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of Contemporary Affairs. He's a international lawyer and
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he was also involved in drafting the Oslo Accords.
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Tova Lazarov is a journalist and commentator, formerly deputy
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managing editor of the Jerusalem Post Jarev Oppenheimer is a
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activist. He formerly ran the Peace Now
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organization and is a strong advocate of the two state
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solution from an Israeli perspective.
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And Hassan Jaberin runs an organization called Adala, which
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is a legal centre for Palestinians in this land.
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Thank you all very much indeed for joining us.
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I mean, let's begin with the the people who think this is
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possible if you like, because you you talk to so many people
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in Israel and they'll say the two state solution time has
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gone. You know, nobody's talking about
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that right now. The hostages are still being
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held. Forget it.
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It's not going to happen. Jarif, why do you think it is
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real and that it could be delivered?
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First of all, there is no other option rather than the two state
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solution, the alternative is what we are saying today, that
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Israel is trying to control the Palestinians, maybe to expel the
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Palestinians. And the outcome of that is a war
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and it's constantly war. This will be the the the future.
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It's this is what we are trying to do Physically there is a
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chance for the two state solution.
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Nothing dramatic says change in the West Bank.
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It's true that half a million of Israelis are living there, but
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most of them are living in the cities very close to the green
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line and you can annex it into Israel and to have swap
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territories. The question here is not about
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the physical option of the two state solution.
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It's about the motivation of Israelis and Palestinians.
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And when I look at the Palestinians, I believe that
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today they are much more eager than ever to get some kind of a
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hope to change their destiny and to have a state next to Israel.
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When I look at the Israeli society, unfortunately we are in
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a minority right now. Most of the people don't want
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it, afraid of it and wish to have the bigger Israel.
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I think that the main obstacle for the two state solution is
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not the Hamas, is not the Palestinians, is not the
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settlers, because the number of the settlers that are living in
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the heart of the West Bank is not is is didn't go up rapidly.
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It's about the motivation of the Israeli white wing to block the
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chance for the two state solution and to do whatever they
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can physically and in the mind of the Israelis in order to make
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it an impossible option. But it's the only option.
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What difference do you think these moves have made, if any?
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Or are these moves that we think are important in London and
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Paris and New York, but actually make no difference, the
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international movement, the resolution, the recognition?
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First of all, I think that we need to show the alternative for
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the war and the alternative for the occupation, and the only
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alternative to the occupation and to the war is to have a
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peace agreement and to have the two state solution.
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There will not be any other solution that will guarantee
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Israel to be a Jewish democratic state and a peaceful region,
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prosperity and reconciliation. There's no other chance because
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as long as one people will control the other people in
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these, in the Jewish perspective, the minority is
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going to control the majority. For sure there will be
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bloodshed. No, no one can, can, can, can
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expect other result. I don't know anyone that will
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just say, OK, it's fine for me. And the next generation and the
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next generation, we are just going to live under the Israeli
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occupation that is that is becoming much more brutal and we
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are fine with it. The international and move,
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first of all, show both sides that there is an alternative to
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the war and to the occupation. Second, if the international
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community will be strong enough, eventually Israel and the
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Palestinian will have to react and to accept it.
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What is strong enough? There are many ways to to
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practice it. OK, Alan, I mean, you seem to
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have gone from a man who was heavily engaged in the peace
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process to a man who now essentially supports the
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Netanyahu government. No, no, not at all.
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Excuse me, I'm an international lawyer.
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I'm not politically identified with any party or with any
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government. I was involved in the
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negotiations of the Oslo Accords.
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I've been involved in the negotiations on the drafting of
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the International Criminal Court.
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So my my position is basically a position, a position of
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international law. I also sat in the General
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Assembly for many, many years in the legal committee.
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Right. So, so, So what do you think
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about how realistic the situation is now and what
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difference these international diplomatic measures are making?
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OK, well, well first of all, resolutions to the General
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Assembly have got absolutely no legal obligatory context there.
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They represent the the political viewpoint of the majority of
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states that voted in favour of them.
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So a resolution that was adopted recommending because they can
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only recommend a 2 state solution and whatever else they
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recommended is not obligatory, it can only recommend and it's a
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political resolution, it doesn't oblige anybody.
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Secondly, a resolution calling upon for for a recognition of a
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Palestinian state that doesn't exist when everybody knows that
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no state exists is totally unrealistic and naive on the
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part of those leaders, especially the presidents of of
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France, the Prime Minister of Canada, the Prime Minister of
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the United Kingdom, Australia, who who willingly went along and
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supported this, knowing that they're supporting something
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that's totally unreal. But they think they're putting
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it on the agenda. Well, they think they're putting
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it on the agenda and they they think they're slapping Israel in
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the face. The other thing is the concept
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of the two state solution. Now, it was a very noble vision
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set out by by President George W Bush in in the late 80s, I think
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it was. It was also part of the
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partition resolution of 1947, which talked about a Jewish
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state and an Arab state, but it's never actually been agreed
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to by the parties. And as you mentioned, it's even
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opposed by Hamas and, and even by the, the, the Palestinian
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Authority. And So what is on the table and
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what has been agreed to are the Oslo Accords and the Oslo
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Accords. In the Oslo Accords, Israel and
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the PLO agreed to conduct negotiations on the the
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permanent status of the territories.
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And these negotiations haven't yet started.
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Do you think it's possible? Absolutely possible.
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And that's why I was coming to this.
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The aim of the negotiations is, as they say, a permanent status.
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Now, this could be one state, it could be two states, it could be
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3 states. It could be a federation, A
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confederation, A condominium, a Co imperium.
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It could be anything that the parties agree to if they
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genuinely come and conduct bona fide negotiation.
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But these calls by these leaders and by the General Assembly and
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by others for A2 state solution are basically prejudging what
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has been agreed upon as the outcome of a negotiation.
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And so I personally, having been involved in these negotiations,
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I, I object to, to going along with the concept of A2 state
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solution. I don't object to the, the to
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the idea. I just say that if and when the
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time comes and we negotiate genuinely with a Palestinian
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leadership that gets it's act together and is capable of
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representing the Palestinian people and committing itself and
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fulfilling it's commitments, then if the outcome of that
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negotiation would be a 2 state solution then I would be all in
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favour. If it would be a three state
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solution, I'd be all in favour of that as well.
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Hassan I think it's obedience for the continuation of the
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incubation because Oslo was agreed in the beginning of the
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90s and we are more than 30 years after that.
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And we see that the settlements were expanded more, the number
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of Palestinians that they were killed and daily they are called
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getting bigger and bigger, the expansion of the settlements
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getting bigger and there is no negotiation.
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And the position of Israeli government is that there is no
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right of self determination of the Palestinian Bieber.
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So to come and to say let the two parties continue to
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negotiate. This is illusion because there
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is no negotiation and Israeli government deny the right of the
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Palestinian for self determination.
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So, so is your. Are you saying that Allen's
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yeah, reasonable position is actually a way of all go with
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continuing with? Due of respect to Allen and with
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his motive, but to come and to say let the two parties continue
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to negotiate. This is illusion.
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You are saying let the occupation continues because
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rally government has position. They see the West Bank and Gaza
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and is Jerusalem part of great Israel and it's Israel.
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They don't recognize the right of the Palestinian for self
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determination. They see that the settlements
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are part of Israel. So to negotiate with who and now
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we have to evaluate and to ask why Oslo failed.
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Oslo failed because there is no political will from Israel side
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to end the occupation. Now I think that the discussion.
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That's not what Bill Clinton says, of course.
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Is it? Of course.
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Of course he he blames Arafat. He can't blame Arafat, but I
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think the BLO, especially Fatah, their main project is like Yariv
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project, that two state solution and they are doing everything
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for this solution and this may be what make BLO weak among the
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Palestinian people because they are focused only in this issue.
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So about Fatah, we know that they are for this solution, that
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the only problem for this or the main problem is that there is no
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political will in the Israeli side.
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So when Alan said because I, I said of course Hamas is not in
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favour of A2 state solution as things stand.
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Alan said also also the the Palestinian Authority is not in.
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No Palestinian Authority is in favour.
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This is the main project for the Palestinian Authority and among
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Hamas we hear people like hell Mashal is ready to accept 2
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state solution. The issue here, the main issue I
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think that there is no political will from Israel side.
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But all of this discourse about two state solution is old
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discourse. We have been in that for more
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than three decades now. The discourse should shift.
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We are in genocide era. The main problem is to end the
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occupation. We don't have to speak about the
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permanent solution. The permanent solution really
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could be confederation, could be one state, could be 3 states.
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We have to end and to work the international to end the
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occupation. Why?
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What does ending the occupation mean?
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The occupation that the West Bank and Gaza and Israelism
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won't be under military control of Israel.
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And this switch to start to speak about ending of the
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occupation rather about statehood.
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This will switch the language from statehood to rights.
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Let us agree about the rights of the two people.
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I my position is that we have to accept that the two people,
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Jewish people, Israel Jewish people and the Palestinian
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people, both of them have the right of self determination and
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historic Palestine. That every Palestinian person
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and every Israeli Jewish person has the right to live with
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equality and peace and historic Palestine.
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If we agree on that, then we can say we want to divide the
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country to two state, 3 state 4 state.
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This won't be a matter but the problem of two state solution
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that first we focus in borders without speaking about rights.
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Now what's my problem here with the position of two state
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solution that you speak about? That Israel would continue to be
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Jewish and Democrat state, meaning that the Palestinian
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citizens that they are comprised 20%, twenty, 1% of the Israeli
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population would continue to be second class citizen.
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That there is no solution for Palestinian refugees and also
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what's the solution for half million Israeli settlers.
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So 2 state solution in the meaning 2 state for two people
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doesn't give me solution for crucial matters.
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One of the crucial matters today is the nation state law that all
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the words say that this is apartheid law.
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Why it's apartheid? Because it said that the Green
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Line is only for the Jewish people.
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The only group that has the right to exercise determination
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in the Green line is the Jewish people.
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What about me? What about my rights?
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I am Palestinian citizen. I am Arabic speaker and Hebrew
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speaker and my Hebrew better than 95% of Israeli Jews.
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Why I don't have the right of self determination as Israeli
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Jew in the green line? Why I have to be second class
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citizen? Why I won't have the right for
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family unification? Why I won't have access to land
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like any Jews? And I am native, I am not
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immigrant. So this is the problem that when
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we speak in Europe, when we speak about two state solution,
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we ignore three companies, We ignore the right of Palestinian
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citizen, we ignore the right of Palestinian refugee and we
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ignore really right of settlers. I am not saying the settlers are
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legitimate to be in West Bank because I will legitimize the
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occupation. But I say well maybe really Jews
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will have the right for movement at least if that was back.
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But would you have agreement after you decolonize the
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country, not through the colonialisation?
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OK. But also, I mean, just to come
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back to sort of, you know, the starting point for all of these
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processes is always end the violence.
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So and and accept the idea. So, so do you, you know, it's
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kind of what you do with Hamas or whatever Hamas might become,
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you know, do you think it is possible for the Palestinian
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Authority, for the different Palestinian groups to remove
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Hamas from the process and for, for that not to be an obstacle?
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I, I think Hamas now in bad situation.
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These are the Palestinian people.
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I think that they made from Palestinian perspective very,
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very huge mistake about the 7th of October.
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And I don't think that they have the power of the 6th of October
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today. And the majority of the
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Palestinian people have now interest to stop the genocide
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part of stopping the genocide to end the incubation.
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So no one even that I am even that I have problem with two
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state solution today I have to accept ending the incubation.
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I will be happy if Israel leave E Jerusalem and Gaza and respect
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because this occupation is the prologue occupation in the
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modern history. This situation is the most
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brutal occupation in the modern history.
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Every day is immediate danger for the life of the Palestinian
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because of this situation. So sometime I have no solution
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but no option but to say you know if you give me now 2 state
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solution I can understand and say I am against ending the
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Commission. I'll, I'll come back to you in a
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moment, but we, we must hear from Tova.
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The question started with, is this realistic?
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Can, can it be put back on the agenda?
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And you know what do you need to do to do that?
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Right. So I think the concept of two
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states, right, which is the self determination of two people with
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ties to the land, that's kind of an easy concept to say.
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Sure, you know, if Jews have ties to the land, then they
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should have a state. If Palestinians have ties to the
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land, they should have a state. Theoretically speaking, it's
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very easy always to talk about rights.
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It's always the execution of the rights that is difficult.
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And when both rights are pitted against each other as if there's
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some mortal battle between, you know, if I give you these
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rights, I'm going to lose mine and vice versa.
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I mean, the two state solution is really drowning in the
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details. It's not really drowning in
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declarations. It's drowning because nobody can
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agree on what you're actually talking about.
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Are you talking about, you know? A Jewish state that's a state
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for all of its citizens. I think that's what you were.
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That's what you were referring to, right?
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Israel as a state for all of its citizens.
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Are you talking about an ethnically nationalist Jewish
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state? If you have a state of
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Palestine, can Jews be citizens in that state?
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Can they be full citizens? Can they have full rights?
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Right. If you talk about a border, is
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it at the 67 line? Is it with the settlement blocks
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like which, which definition of Palestinian statehood does it
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include Jordan, which definition are you actually discussing?
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So at the point where it was very easy to sort of more say
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more broadly and inch towards it, people did that and then
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many things historically came into play, but.
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On But on the basic level, do you think Israelis are prepared
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to accept the idea of a Palestinian state I.
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Think that's what I'm saying. I'm saying globally, I think you
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could create a situation where they would pragmatically.
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If you're talking about two states at the 67 line, I don't
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think you have many Israelis that ever said two states at the
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pre 67 lines, right. If you're talking about security
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guarantees such that you couldn't have an October 7th
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style attack, yeah, I think you could get there.
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But again, you, I mean, the, the two state, the two state
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solution when it was put forward on the table, was put forward in
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a situation where you essentially had the idea of two
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governances, right? You didn't have the threat as
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much from non state actors such as Hamas.
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So now, even if you could move the dial back, I think that's,
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that's what the UN resolution is about, right?
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It's about can we get everything back to pre to October 6th?
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Can you move the dial back if you don't have a solution to
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what happens if you have a non state actor such as Hamas that
22:19
could come into play. Also, now you know we're talking
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about a much broader regional picture.
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Can you bring in the Abraham Accords?
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Can the Abraham Accords shift the dial?
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What incentives could be put on the table?
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I mean, the Abraham Accords are in danger of being destroyed
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now, aren't they? The attack on Qatar has put the
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Abraham Accords in great peril. UAE is considering withdrawing
22:41
from the whole thing. Where can they turn it around
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and find a way to put all the genies back in the box?
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I'm saying you're sitting here, you're sitting here, you know,
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at this massive tipping point where it could go either way.
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But the but the idea of two states is really about the
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details of it. Can you get everybody out of the
23:02
existential button, existential sort of crisis situation that
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they're in now? OK.
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I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of scepticism on both sides
23:10
here, isn't there? I do think that the details are
23:13
already well known and they are well expect accepted by both
23:17
sides that would like to get the solution.
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We know the settlements blocks and the swap and and the borders
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and the all other issues are all almost as solved.
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It's not about the details, it's about the willingness of the
23:31
Israelis to give up part of the Holy Land for the Palestinians
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and to recognize that the Palestinians are human being and
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they deserve a state like the like Israelis.
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This is the main issue here and when I see the Israeli society I
23:46
see 2 main challenges. The first one is the people that
23:51
are passionate about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza
23:55
because of the religious reasons, because of their belief
23:58
that democracy is important but not so important like the land.
24:01
And they prefer the land over democracy and they prefer the
24:05
occupation over peace. And they are the settler
24:07
movement I would call it. Not all of them are settlers.
24:10
Some of them are living within side Israel and this is the most
24:13
powerful political force in Israel for many years now, but
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they are not the the majority of Israelis.
24:21
The issue here is about the mainstream Israelis that are not
24:24
living in the West Bank, that are not living in in in East
24:27
Jerusalem, that are not meeting Palestinians on the daily life
24:31
Palestinian mean Palestinian living in the West Bank, not
24:33
Israeli Arabs. And they're maybe ready for the
24:37
two state solution. They are the ones that supported
24:40
the hostile agreement and other process, but they were convinced
24:43
and they are convinced now that there is not an option.
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Either it's not possible to have it or it's not safe to have it.
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And the main thing that the Israeli government and the
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Israeli right wing is doing all the time is to continue push the
24:58
message that forever it's going to be war.
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And this is something because the Palestinians, they don't
25:04
like us, they want to kick us out.
25:06
They are criminals, they are terrorists.
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And this is a fact that cannot be changed.
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And if you are and they are so busy, try to hide, to hide the
25:17
alternative for the occupation and the war.
25:19
And this is what they are doing since October seven.
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I thought that October 7 might change the Israeli view, because
25:27
before October 7, many Israelis fought that.
25:30
It's OK, We can control the Palestinians, we can have an
25:33
occupation, we can have siege over Gaza for decades and
25:37
nothing bad will happen. We can have peace with the
25:39
Emirates, we can fly abroad, we can have normal life, we can
25:42
have a very good economic situation.
25:45
We can be part of the world and it's fine.
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And I thought that October 7th might change the perspective
25:52
saying to the Israelis enough, we need to solve the conflict,
25:55
otherwise it's going to be war again.
25:58
Unfortunately, the government and the Israeli white women,
26:01
some of the opposition, they are pushing forward a different
26:05
message that the lesson from October 7th is that we need to
26:09
be stronger, that we need to attack before we are being
26:12
attacked, that we need forever to attack them and maybe even to
26:15
expel them out. And this is a catastrophic
26:19
message and we need to counter this message and the world
26:22
should counter this message. And to say to Hamas and the
26:25
settlers and the Israelis, there are two option, either war and
26:30
destruction and isolation and bad things that will happen.
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Or an alternative, giving up part of the land in order to
26:37
have Israel as a traditional democratic state and also a
26:40
peace in the region. And this conflict threats the
26:43
the the stability of the world, not just in this region.
26:47
I I find it somewhat strange, if not sad that that Yariv, my
26:54
colleague is, is, is hinting at the fact that well, October the
26:59
7th was Israel's fault and and therefore Israel should learn
27:05
from it. Was it Israel who attacked,
27:10
brutally attacked and raped and and burnt thousands of people?
27:15
Where did this come from? It didn't come from Israel.
27:18
It came from a, a, a state of mind, an attitude, a fanatic
27:25
Islamistic attitude among Hamas that that basically it's being
27:29
echoed on the the streets of London and on the streets of
27:32
Paris and, and, and various other places from the river to
27:35
the sea, Palestine will be free and there's no room for Israel.
27:40
And this is a genocidal attitude.
27:43
And so if Hassan is talking all the time using the the phrases
27:47
genocide and apartheid, I think you should look in, in all
27:50
directions, Hassan, because you don't recognise that.
27:54
Now let me, please. No, no, no.
27:58
I think you'll use. Excuse me.
28:00
I think you're you're you're excuse me.
28:03
I think you're using phrases that are, are sort of you, you
28:07
that are just being bandied about without anybody knowing
28:10
what genocide is. No, I excuse me.
28:12
Well, it's being defined now. Excuse me.
28:14
I excuse me. No.
28:17
Excuse me excuse. Me.
28:19
Would you allow me please to finish genocide?
28:21
Would you please allow me to finish my sentence?
28:23
Of. Course, genocide is defined by
28:25
the the the 1948 UN Genocide Convention.
28:28
And so, before throwing out platitudes that you've heard in
28:34
propaganda, look rich. Today the US and Commission of
28:39
Inquiry of the OBT, the Occupy terrorism, decided that what is
28:44
happening in Gaza is genocide. Would you please allow me to
28:46
finish? That you say and.
28:48
Then I like. Attitude.
28:49
Those UN bodies, UN bodies deciding that genocide is
28:55
happening in Gaza. I'd like to.
28:57
That's my attitude. I'd like to conduct a cultural
28:59
discussion, not interrupt each other.
29:01
So please allow me to finish and then you'll say what you want.
29:05
But I, I, as an international lawyer, I know what the
29:08
definition of genocide is. Excuse me.
29:11
Look, will you please that I'm. You know it's a sentence.
29:14
So, you know, you've taken me off the, the, the, the flow of
29:18
what I wanted to say. And So what I'm saying is that
29:22
the, what I wanted to say from the very beginning is this, that
29:26
the Oslo Accords, which I was involved in negotiating,
29:29
including negotiating directly with the Palestinian leadership
29:33
like Yasser Arafat, Muhammad, Mahmoud Abbas, Abu Allah and Sai
29:41
Barikat and Sai Barikat. And I drafted the two of us.
29:44
The provision in the Oslo Accords that says that the
29:48
Palestinian, that the, the, the PLO and the Israelis will
29:51
conduct negotiations in which both sides, each side will
29:55
present their basic rights and historic and legal rights.
30:00
And these will be negotiated, not dictated by aun resolution,
30:07
not dictated by a French President or British Prime
30:10
Minister, not dictated by terrorist organizations in.
30:14
Gaza Netanyahu to decide Netanyahu, that is, he is
30:18
genociding. That is the question.
30:20
Do you want related to Netanyahu to decide?
30:22
This is my question. Second, my question to you as
30:25
lawyer of international law, how do you define what's happening
30:28
now in Gaza? How what?
30:30
How you define you want? Me to define it?
30:32
Yeah. Will you allow me to answer
30:34
without interrupting me? Yes.
30:35
OK, What is? That the moderator.
30:38
Is that on the basis of of the the the the horrific massacre
30:42
that took place? Israel took actions to prevent
30:46
any further offensive action by Hamas.
30:50
These actions are still going on because Hamas is still declaring
30:54
its intent to conduct more and more. 7th of October. 70% of the
30:59
houses of the Palestinian people the self determined destroying
31:03
all the bending. Hold on, I'm sorry.
31:06
OK, I I. So you you reject the finding of
31:09
genocide, don't you? I I don't have enough data in
31:12
order to say that this is genocide.
31:14
Do you do you respect the UN Commission?
31:17
I I respect, but I cannot adopt the conclusion.
31:20
I say the reality. The reality is the Israeli
31:23
government is speaking about expelling the Gaza people,
31:27
making Gaza an impossible place to live and to move out the
31:30
Palestinians. They are not just talking about
31:32
it. They created this new system,
31:36
new government office. I will say section, government
31:42
section that is going to is working on this idea and talking
31:48
with other countries in order to expel the Palestinians.
31:51
So it's very clear that the goal of this war is not to fight
31:54
Hamas and it's not to release the hostages.
31:57
The goal of this war is to expel the Palestinians and to take
32:01
their land. It's not genocide, but it's not,
32:05
it's not something that I can accept as a human being, as an
32:08
Israeli, as a person that believe in democracy.
32:11
I will agree with you that it's not Auschwitz, but it's
32:14
genocide. I, I, I, I think that Israel is
32:17
not doing enough to stop the civilian casualties.
32:23
And I think that the reason why Israel is fighting Gaza, not
32:26
just Hamas, is because they believe that eventually this is
32:30
an historical time. They can take advantage of
32:34
October 7, use it as an excuse to expel the Palestinians, to
32:39
make Gaza a hell, a place that you cannot live, that you have
32:42
no houses at all, no infrastructure, nothing to force
32:45
them to move out, to call it that.
32:48
Immigration, voluntary immigration, and eventually to
32:52
take over Gaza. This is the main goal of the
32:54
war. OK.
32:55
I mean, Alan, I just want to come back to your your proposal,
32:57
if you like, which is that the Israelis and the Palestinians
33:00
should sit there and discuss their rights That that that is
33:02
not what Netanyahu is interested in in the slightest, is he?
33:08
So, So Hassan's point that, you know, you leave that to
33:10
Netanyahu is it's correct. It's not going to happen under
33:13
this government. Whether Netanyahu is interested
33:15
or is not interested is immaterial at the moment.
33:18
And I come here well. It's not.
33:21
Unlike my colleagues, I'm not coming here with a political
33:23
agenda. What I'm saying is this, Israel
33:27
is committed by an agreement that has been signed
33:31
internationally and witnessed by the President of the United
33:35
States, the President of the Russian Federation, the King of
33:39
Jordan, the President of Egypt, the EU and has been endorsed and
33:45
and the Prime Minister of Norway and has been endorsed by the
33:48
United Nations, witnessed. Therefore, all these parties and
33:53
witnesses can, should be going along with the aim to get back
34:00
to a negotiating mode. Now, how do we get back to a
34:03
negotiating mode? Are the Palestinians and the
34:06
Israelis in a position to get back tomorrow morning to a
34:10
negotiating mode? Regrettably, they're not.
34:13
Netanyahu says there will be no Palestinian state.
34:15
The Israeli government, Well, the Israeli government at the
34:19
moment is not in a position to to develop itself into a a
34:24
negotiating team that can negotiate in the same way that
34:28
there's no such thing as a representative of the
34:32
Palestinian people because there's Hamas and there's Fatah
34:36
and there's the Islamic Jihad and there's 300 other
34:40
organisations. So until the two sides get
34:43
themselves get their act together in order to conduct the
34:47
negotiations in accordance with what has been agreed upon and
34:50
what is what they're committed to, it will take time.
34:54
So it. Doesn't require Donald Trump to
34:57
have a change of heart and to tell Netanyahu he has to now end
35:01
the negotiation. It will definitely require
35:04
Donald Trump, but I think Trump has shown that he doesn't
35:09
negotiate in the same way that people have in the past.
35:13
I don't think that you're going to see a long term negotiation
35:17
process. I think you're going to see a
35:19
lot of behind the scenes movement.
35:21
I think you're going to see an attempt to revive the Abraham
35:25
Accords and to leverage that toward a solution.
35:28
I don't think the solution is going to look like something
35:31
that we had before, but I think you can't get, it's just it's
35:37
not possible that you're going to return this box to the to the
35:43
Oslo process. And I think the declaration in
35:46
September is about is part of signalling the end to that Oslo
35:50
negotiation periods. I think you're when we when we
35:54
got to when we were on October 6th, what was happening is that
35:58
people were hoping that they were going to have a deal with
36:00
Saudi Arabia that was going to return us to A2 state solution.
36:04
They thought they were making a deal with Hamas.
36:06
It's part of why they weren't as attuned to some of the things
36:10
that were about to happen. You're going to be going much
36:14
more in the direction of something that's regional rather
36:17
than something that's directly between the two parties because
36:19
you're going to need the region, something that was let that was
36:24
less thought about during Oslo. So I think I think it's just
36:28
going to be a completely different ball game.
36:30
And in which Saudi? Arabia is much more.
36:33
Important Saudi Arabia is going to be is going to be a huge
36:36
player here what Israel, what in other words, everybody's been
36:40
talking here in Netanyahu. Netanyahu is if he is, he is
36:43
this, you know, sort of 1 dimension kind of we love war
36:49
figure, but the truth is that Netanyahu is a very complex
36:52
politician. He, you know, he was the person
36:55
who signed the Y agreement. He, you know, he split Hebron.
37:01
He was, he did a moratorium on, you know, new new settlement,
37:07
new settlement housing when it was in.
37:08
So. So are you saying you think
37:10
Netanyahu could be a Rabin? I'm saying.
37:13
Netanyahu could bring peace. Netanyahu can be can turn the
37:18
dial in a dime and become any figure that you want him to be
37:23
if it's going to achieve some of his larger goals.
37:27
And keep him in power. And keep and yes, but I'm
37:30
saying, but if you can get, if you can get a, if you can get a
37:32
Saudi deal, if you can put a cap on a nuclear Iran, how the
37:37
Palestinians play into that when you have those levers is going
37:41
to be very different than when they.
37:42
Don't and can I just ask you just on the genocide point which
37:44
has been in, you know, again in the news this week because of
37:46
the UN Commission. But of course it follows, you
37:49
know, the international genocide scholars also saying this, lots
37:53
of organisations saying this, you know, you're not an expert
37:58
in genocide, but but do you whether you whether you accept
38:01
whether you're able to say it's genocide or not, does it make
38:05
you as an Israeli And do you think it's making Israelis think
38:09
are we doing something? Have we crossed the line when so
38:12
many people are saying this is genocide?
38:15
Or does the national psyche kick in of this is just global
38:19
anti-Semitism? I don't, I think that
38:22
unfortunately, with all due respect, I, I mean, I can't, I
38:29
imagine that if I am a Palestinian sitting in Gaza and
38:35
I'm looking around me at the destruction and looking at the
38:39
body counts, I imagine it would feel like a genocide, much like
38:46
it felt to Israelis on October 7th who looked at the
38:49
destruction of their world, that it was similar to the Holocaust.
38:54
I, you know, I, I, you know, I liked what you said that this
38:59
wasn't Auschwitz. Because I feel like for
39:02
Israelis, when you talk about genocide, you know, you're
39:06
talking about a Holocaust that you know, killed over 60% of
39:12
European jury it you get you use the word like genocide and you
39:16
traipse all kinds of buttons. I think everybody can globally
39:20
say that what's happening to civilians in Gaza is horrible
39:24
and that the death count is too high and that innocent civilians
39:27
should not be killed. It's a really simple concept and
39:30
I don't think you need to create this, you know, battle of
39:35
victims, one or the other around it.
39:38
I wish to share in my experience when I'm speaking with Israelis,
39:41
normally Israel, well, it's not like lunatics.
39:44
And I'm asking them about how do you feel about the Gaza people
39:48
that are suffering and being killed and the destruction is so
39:53
huge and they are saying I don't feel bad for them because what
39:58
they did to us on October 7th and we need to confront it.
40:01
The dehumanization process of the Palestinian in the Israeli
40:05
society with the help of Hamas that totally did a huge war
40:09
crime on October 7th. It's a it's a small world to say
40:13
a war crime about it. With the help of Hamas, the
40:15
dehumanization process of the Palestinians in is it's the in
40:20
in its peak. Israelis don't feel sympathy to
40:23
the Palestinians as a whole, especially to the Palestinian
40:26
Gaza. The pictures of the people of
40:28
Gaza cheering and happy when the hostages came, some some of them
40:33
came already dead to the to the Gaza and beaten.
40:37
But you don't need to feel sympathy for Palestinians to
40:39
think what you're doing is wrong.
40:42
Of I, I personally feel sympathy for the Palestinian for sure.
40:45
And I think it's, it's, it's madness and I think it's, it's a
40:49
violation of the international law and it's, and, and, and the
40:52
government is not telling the truth.
40:54
The reason why Israel is, is, is, is using such a force over
40:59
the population of Gaza, not just the Hamas is not military, it's
41:03
not the hostages. There was only one goal that can
41:06
that that can explain this use of power, this use of force.
41:11
And this is the idea of expelling the Palestinians and
41:15
moving them out of Gaza. And and as I said before, the
41:19
government not only talk about it but is doing things in order
41:22
to to make it happen. OK, Can we talk about the
41:25
settlers as, as one of the big obstacles to any kind of peace
41:30
process now, Hassan, you said, you said in a way you didn't
41:33
think the settlements were the, you know, the the brake on any
41:40
kind of future. But given what's happening,
41:43
given the expansion of settlements now the effective
41:46
division of the West Bank with this green light on a, on a new
41:50
expansion in this new corridor, are you saying it could just be
41:55
stopped? No, I am thinking that I am
41:58
saying that one of the failure, one of the reason why Oslo
42:04
failed, didn't succeed first because you have many, many
42:07
groups that they didn't have answer.
42:10
Robin was killed by a person who belonged to the settler group.
42:14
I am not saying all the settlers are killer, but he belonged the
42:17
person who killed the Rabin and he and many of the settlers
42:21
thought that Robin put them under risk.
42:25
Palestinian citizen of Israel. They said to themselves, we have
42:28
no answer. We will continue to be second
42:31
class citizen. The people in Gaza, 2 third of
42:34
them are refugees. They said, well, Oslo doesn't
42:38
give us answer as refugees and This is why you have many groups
42:43
that made Oslo not successful one.
42:47
And This is why I'm saying that we have to switch the discourse
42:51
from statehood to rights. And if we speak about rights,
42:55
it's easier in fact, because when we both borders all the
43:00
time partitioning make problems. Until now, the partitioning
43:05
between India and Pakistan still making troubles there and
43:12
partitioning of Palestine we still live.
43:15
There, but there is a conversation right Let.
43:18
As let as switch the conversation but.
43:20
Is a conversation about? Hang on, I just want to
43:23
establish. Is the conversation about rights
43:25
a stepping stone to a conversation about sovereignty
43:29
and borders and. It will lead.
43:30
It will. Lead state?
43:31
Or are you saying actually we could just have a one state
43:34
solution as long? As no I am not saying one state,
43:36
maybe 2 state, maybe 3 state, maybe confederation, but first
43:40
order to speak about the rights to agree that every person in
43:44
this land should be treated equally, every person, every
43:49
group should have the right of self determining.
43:51
But do you think the settlers in the expansion of settlements
43:54
have made this impossible now Now of.
43:57
Course, it's difficult. The the settlers are one of the
44:00
most strongest political wing in Israel.
44:04
One of the reason why the war is continued is because the power
44:09
of the settlers in this government, power of Smothridge
44:12
and power of Bengvir in this government and power of members
44:16
of the Likud that they support the settlers.
44:19
So settlers are very, very strong power.
44:22
One of the reason that the war is continued because of them.
44:26
I don't think that if we have politicians like him, the war,
44:30
the war, of course, will end tomorrow, Yastani or a year ago
44:34
or two years ago. But the problem that this
44:37
government is led by politics of settlers.
44:41
But I want to say something Christian, if you allow me a
44:44
minute. There is consensus among the
44:48
Holocaust and the genocide scholars that what's happening
44:52
in Gaza is genocide. And there is also consensus that
44:57
as that discourse in the world was switched and changed
45:03
immediately when the international media entered the
45:08
camps, Holocaust camps, and they saw the horrible things, then
45:12
something new came to the world, something that we know it now as
45:17
the language of human rights. The world was changed and now we
45:22
are living in the genocide era, in the genocide time.
45:25
The question is whether this debate will be all debate when
45:31
the media, international media, enter Gaza, the world see what's
45:35
happening in Gaza, what's happening in Gaza, and then
45:39
maybe we will have a new discord in the world.
45:42
I think about Netanyahu. I don't see Netanyahu.
45:46
We'll find a way to be out of being indicted before the ICCI.
45:53
Don't think that's easy. Any Arab leaders in the world
45:58
will shake his hand after they will see what's happening in
46:02
Gaza. I don't see that even Western
46:05
leaders will shake his hand after they will see.
46:08
Look what happened to the Prime Minister of Israel.
46:11
He cannot travel back to US and Hungary today.
46:16
Those the two countries that he can.
46:18
And what will happen after the end of the war, when the scene
46:22
of the genocide come out, all the world will start to compare,
46:26
really to compare. And I agree that there are
46:29
difference, but this is the main comparison between Holocaust
46:33
camps and Gaza. The only thing I would say, I'll
46:37
come further, but what I, what I, what I think is worth saying,
46:40
it is really not clear what the world will ever see.
46:42
Yes, there is no sign of the international media being
46:45
allowed. And we asked and we're not
46:48
allowed in. And they are destroying a great
46:51
deal of the evidence. So journalists.
46:53
So it's not clear what we would ever see if we were ever allowed
46:56
in Tova. Yeah, I just want to say that
47:00
the UN held a memorial service for the Iranian president when
47:05
he died in a helicopter crash. So I'm going to agree with you
47:08
that it's very hard to know what the UN would do.
47:12
And after that, it really will depend a lot on where, where
47:16
it's going. You know, do you, do you
47:19
actually have a comprehensive peace agreement for the region?
47:23
Could Netanyahu be revived by that?
47:26
I, I don't know, but I, I do, I do feel bad that there is one
47:30
piece of the storyline that has not been mentioned here, which
47:33
I, which I really do want to mention because we talk a lot
47:36
about, you know, Israelis and feeling threatened.
47:39
Should they not feel threatened? Is this a war about the
47:41
destruction of Gaza? I'm not saying that there aren't
47:43
people in in the Israeli government who haven't spoken
47:47
quite openly about wanting to expel Palestinians and, you
47:51
know, destroy Gaza. But, you know, in 2005, Israel
47:55
pulled out of Gaza, right? And in the in the lead up to
47:58
that, there was an argument between the left wing members of
48:04
the kibbutz team on the border and the settlers in Gaza.
48:06
And basically those members of the kibbutz team would say to
48:10
the settlers, you have to leave Gaza because you are what is
48:14
putting us in danger. And they would say to the people
48:17
in the kibbutz, right, No, no, no, it's the opposite.
48:20
We are here because we are protecting you.
48:24
If we leave, you will be attacked.
48:26
And that, and that was the argument.
48:29
And Israel left Gaza and Hamas seized control of the territory
48:35
in a coup kicking, kicking out Fatah.
48:39
And, and what should have been right a a lab for peacemaking,
48:44
what should have been a thing that would have inspired
48:47
Israelis towards taking risks, became actually the thing that
48:52
made it almost impossible to move forward.
48:54
To you said the staffers were right incidentally, whether it
48:57
was a coup or not as. Debate I'm saying an election,
48:59
but I'm well, no, there was there was a coup after the
49:02
election. So I'm sort of saying, if
49:03
January 6th had had become a coup, would you say it was a
49:07
coup or that Trump I'm saying are?
49:09
You saying the staffers were right to say we defend you.
49:11
I'm saying that Israelis, that argument echoes across the
49:17
decades. For Israelis, you're you're not
49:19
and and and and and and it in other words, there is like an
49:22
over focus here on how you know, oh, Israel isn't paying
49:27
attention. You know, Israel doesn't is this
49:30
doesn't care about the security thing as if this is just about
49:33
destroying Palestinians and it's not about security.
49:36
I think Israelis got a very powerful lesson about I think
49:40
Israelis who thought before you could withdraw from territory
49:44
because we have a strong army that can protect our border and
49:48
and we can play around a little bit with this, with this issue
49:52
of withdrawal got a wake up call.
49:54
And it's going to be much harder now to put forward a solution
49:58
unless you have a security current argument as to why that
50:02
would not happen. I.
50:03
Think it's, it's really important what Tofa said.
50:05
Because it's very it's a very crucial part of the discourse
50:10
with inside this. The idea of the fact that Israel
50:14
move out from Gaza, then we got Hamas and then we got October
50:17
7th is something very deep in the minds of the mainstream
50:20
Israelis, not the supporters of the settlers.
50:23
Having said that, it's not all the picture since then, Israel
50:26
didn't promote the idea of the two state solution, disconnected
50:29
Gaza from the West Bank, from East Jerusalem and for the world
50:32
and make it a siege over Gaza. Create a situation in which the
50:37
people of Gaza are totally locked in Gaza and eventually
50:41
also giving money to Hamas and empowering Hamas, knowing that
50:46
once Hamas is controlling Gaza, there will not be any, any
50:50
address to speak about the two state solution.
50:53
So it wasn't, it wasn't just by accident that this government
50:59
supported Hamas and try to harm the Palestinian Authority and
51:02
they are doing it these days as well.
51:05
They thought that Hamas can be an ally because Hamas is not
51:08
talking about the two state solution.
51:09
They're talking about one state that will not be Jewish will
51:12
maybe without Jewish people at all.
51:15
And therefore they are not the address for the permanent status
51:17
agreement. So this is terrific.
51:20
And they have no leverage of in the world because they are
51:23
considered to be a terrorist organization.
51:25
So let's give them money, let's empower them and let's we can
51:29
the moderate the alternative to Hamas, the Palestinian
51:32
Authority. This is part of the picture.
51:34
Alan, let me ask you about the settlements as well.
51:35
I mean, you know, there is this perception that the expansion of
51:38
the settlements has made the reality of a Palestinian state
51:41
impossible. Look, the the issue of
51:45
settlements and I'm quote, UN quote is a, a negotiating
51:48
subject in the in the final status negotiations.
51:51
So they could be Palestinian, they could be moved assuming
51:56
that we get back to a negotiating mode.
52:00
Israel is committed to this. The the the Palestinian
52:03
Liberation Organization is committed to this.
52:05
Obviously Hamas and and the various other factions don't
52:09
accept the very concept of of the state of Israel existing.
52:13
So the Palestinians themselves have to get over this, and in
52:17
the same way that Israel has to get back to its responsibilities
52:23
to negotiate. But it's impossible in the
52:25
context of this government, isn't it, with Scottish and Ben
52:28
Gavir in it? Look, Israel is a democratic
52:31
country. In the event that the Israeli
52:35
public decide that this government is not carrying out
52:39
the, the, the what it wants, then then it has the prerogative
52:43
to change this government. What I what I'd like to say is
52:46
this that without going to to to buzzwords used by by by by
52:52
Hassan and and others here, whether it's genocide or two
52:56
state solution, all these are buzzwords that are being thrown
52:59
out in the UN or by various leaders.
53:04
These aren't going to advance in any way getting towards some
53:11
type of peaceful solution or bomb was inage between the
53:16
Israelis and the Palestinians resolutions in the United
53:20
Nations that are encouraging Hamas to maintain their their
53:27
their imprisonment of the of the the hostages.
53:31
These aren't going to advance anything.
53:33
They're only going to advance the suffering of everybody on
53:36
both sides. And therefore I, I think the,
53:39
the responsible states, had they gone to the United Nations,
53:44
they, they, they wouldn't have gone along with, with what is a
53:49
farce of adopting a UN resolution which is meaningless,
53:54
which says nothing and which achieves nothing.
53:57
If I may say about the settlements, the settlement, the
54:00
construction of the settlements is a unilateral step by the
54:03
Israeli government. It's like negotiating over pizza
54:08
and one side is eating the pizza and one.
54:10
And when this government would like to build an E1 between
54:14
Jerusalem and the settlements of Malayalam, yeah, this is
54:17
strategic threat to the option to have the two state solution.
54:21
So what are we going to discuss with the Palestinians once the
54:25
settlements project is over and you cannot physically made make
54:29
the two state solution. And I think that when we look at
54:32
the policy of the settlements, there are good news and the bad
54:35
news, the good news is that most of the Israelis are not going to
54:37
live there. They don't want to live there.
54:39
It's not safe. Some many people have problem,
54:42
moral problem to live there. They are not part of it.
54:45
And when you see the numbers, you don't see a huge increase of
54:48
the numbers of settlers, new settlers that are coming from
54:50
Israel to live in the heart of the West Bank.
54:52
Most of them are coming to the settlements blocks that can be
54:55
annexed to Israel in a in permanent status agreement.
54:59
The bad news is that the people that do come there are much more
55:02
violence. They are much more motivated to
55:07
move out communities with inside Gaza and to take over the land.
55:12
And they are being backed up by the Israeli government, by the
55:15
Israeli police. And they are even giving money
55:18
for the, there is the new, they are building now farms that are
55:21
taking over huge part of the land.
55:24
But you don't need so many people.
55:25
You can have 20-30 people, youngsters mostly coming with
55:29
guns, coming with cars that they like, Rangers that they got from
55:34
the government, and they are threatening the Palestinian and
55:37
they are forcing them to move out.
55:38
I saw in my own eyes a Palestinian community that is
55:41
packing and moving out because they are afraid of the terror,
55:45
the terror of the settlers. And the settlers are using
55:47
violence and no one is doing anything about it.
55:50
And the situation of the Palestinian in the West Bank is
55:53
really, really bad because it's not just new neighbors that are
55:57
taking your land. These new neighbors are
56:00
threatening you. They are threatening your
56:01
family. They humiliate you and they're
56:04
creating your life like an impossible one.
56:08
And this is part of what this government is doing, supporting
56:11
the the the groups that are acting terror against the
56:15
Palestinians in the West Bank. And just to add data to support
56:19
what Reeve said that in the last two years, 1000 Palestinian were
56:25
killed in the West Bank by the settlers and the army.
56:28
And this is the biggest number, that of killing Palestinians in
56:33
the West Bank since 1967. And if there is any terror in
56:37
the West Bank, this is Jewish terror of the settlers and this
56:41
government empower them and give them money and armed support and
56:48
all of the powers to them. If there is terror, this is
56:51
Jewish terror in the West Bank. If there is violence, the
56:53
settler violence in the West Bank and the Palestinian there
56:58
under immediate dangers. I mean, what's interesting is
57:01
that what, whatever your perspective, you all seem to be
57:03
saying that the the settlers in themselves are not the obstacle
57:09
to a Palestinian state, that that is overcomeable, right?
57:13
So, So what what about the other things that have come up?
57:15
I mean, you know, and this feels like we're jumping way ahead and
57:19
of course we are. But when you get into these
57:21
negotiations, you're also going to be talking about refugees,
57:25
the right to return, the status of Jerusalem.
57:29
Yes, these are these are all negotiating.
57:31
Issues. Do you actually think these
57:32
things can be solved? The question who are the
57:36
partners from Israeli side to negotiate with Netanyahu cannot
57:41
be partner. Gan say I don't recognize the
57:44
right of self determination of the Palestinian people and I'm
57:46
against two state solution. Who is the partner Bennett?
57:50
Bennett is the only one who can replace Netanyahu.
57:54
He is supporting the policy of the settlers.
57:57
He is against Palestinian state. So first of all, let us decide
58:02
who is the Israeli partner with the Palestinian.
58:04
I don't know to expect what Bennett will do.
58:06
I'm not so sure he will be the new Prime Minister.
58:09
We cannot know. But about the idea, when you
58:12
look at these issues, these core issues, they are all solvable.
58:15
Once there is a will for a political solution, there is a
58:19
political solution for each of of these issues.
58:22
On the issue of refugees, it's very clear that if Israel will
58:26
be ready to accept the Palestinian refugees, we're not
58:28
talking about, we're not talking about two states for two people.
58:31
We are talking about two states for one people.
58:33
The Palestinians and and Israel will never accept it.
58:36
So this is a red line. We know that the 67 border is
58:39
the basic borders with swap territories.
58:41
We know that the solution to Jews.
58:45
This is the point. In.
58:48
This is the point in start of of a negotiation that aimed to
58:51
succeed. What do you what?
58:53
What do you mean? Sorry, Alan.
58:54
The the Oslo court said that that the negotiations will be on
58:58
Jerusalem, on settlements, on refugees and on borders.
59:02
In other words, there's no border.
59:04
The 1967 Line was a line that was never agreed upon as a peace
59:09
region. It was the Jordanians in the
59:11
Armistice agreements of 1949 who insisted that this time.
59:15
You are a lawyer as As for now, the 67 border is the border of
59:21
the state of Israel. Israel until now never annexed
59:25
the West Bank into Israel, not by.
59:27
And this was the decision by, made by Israel.
59:29
And even in East Jerusalem, the Palestinians living in East
59:33
Jerusalem, they did and that was annexed to Israel.
59:36
They're not Israeli citizens, they're just civilians.
59:40
It's not by choice. It's not this is the, this is.
59:43
This is what this is. This is their status.
59:45
They can ask and to beg Israel to change it and sometimes
59:50
Israel agree to some, but it's not their choice.
59:52
This is not true. They are being gone.
59:55
They are being. Gone.
59:57
Civilians and not citizens because they are living in the
1:00:00
other side of the Green Line and and and and the Austrian
1:00:03
agreement cannot be an alibi to the occupation.
1:00:06
And you are using the Austrian agreement that the expiration
1:00:09
date is already over the Austrian agreement.
1:00:11
Is not a peace agreement is it was something temporary and
1:00:16
there's the expiration date is over we are overdosed argument
1:00:20
don't use those argument as an alibi to build settlements and
1:00:23
to erase the green light you're. Misleading the interviewer and
1:00:28
you're misleading. Why what?
1:00:30
What is not for you? Because first of all, the Oslo
1:00:33
Accords never had an expiration date.
1:00:36
The only expiration date, and I was involved in drafting it, is
1:00:39
the five year period of the Palestinian Authority
1:00:44
government. That's the only expiration date.
1:00:46
There's no expiration date. Secondly, the residents of
1:00:50
Jerusalem have got the option by law to adopt Israeli
1:00:55
citizenship. Do you like some of?
1:00:57
The people that ask, I mean, would you please get
1:01:00
citizenship? In if you please allow me, on
1:01:04
the basis of cultural discussion, to finish a
1:01:06
sentence. But the truth is also important.
1:01:08
Well, are you allowing me or not, please?
1:01:11
Well, thank you very much. They were given the right by law
1:01:14
to assume Israeli citizenship. Some chose to do so.
1:01:17
Some were threatened by the Palestinian leadership not to do
1:01:21
so. This is the fact and this is the
1:01:23
law. Now you can argue and you can
1:01:25
smile and you can. Because it's come.
1:01:27
From your your political position, it's not political.
1:01:30
I'm explaining to you what the the legal situation is.
1:01:34
You either accept it or you reject.
1:01:35
It are you agree with me on the legal issue that a child had
1:01:38
been born if he he's in Jewish in Jerusalem, he will be citizen
1:01:43
automatically, but if he was a Palestinian he will be only
1:01:46
civilian. Are you agree with me this this
1:01:49
is this is the default what he can do with that later he can
1:01:53
beg the Israelis to to get to get citizenship and sometimes
1:01:57
they did. Mostly they don't because of
1:01:59
many excuses and it's take years to get it.
1:02:02
It's not something that my children or your children will
1:02:05
have to go through when they are being born and automatically
1:02:07
they are citizens of Israel. And this is because the Green
1:02:10
line is exist also in East Jerusalem, although we occupy E
1:02:14
Jerusalem to Israel. Do you?
1:02:17
I just, I just wanted to get back to your other point, if I
1:02:19
could, which is just a historical reminder that Ariel
1:02:23
Sharon was the father of the settlement movement.
1:02:26
When he first announced disengagement, people laughed.
1:02:29
They said, oh, yeah, he's really going to send in bulldozers to
1:02:32
destroy Gaza. And actually he did.
1:02:35
So I'm saying that political leaders move, at the end of the
1:02:39
day very much out of expediency and larger goals.
1:02:43
And he always had this phrase that said, you know what you see
1:02:45
from here? You know, what you you see from
1:02:47
here, you don't see from there. You know, the vision changes and
1:02:51
so does the policy. And so, well, I think it's I
1:02:55
agree that that Netanyahu is not going right now in the direction
1:02:58
of two States and he's spoken against it.
1:03:00
He's also the same person that gave the Bar Ilan speech in
1:03:03
which he talked about the rights of, of, of two peoples.
1:03:06
So it's hard to tell where, where the policy is going to go.
1:03:12
But definitely, yes, I think it's the policy and not the
1:03:15
people. And you had a question, I'm
1:03:16
sorry. Well, just finally, I mean, what
1:03:18
do you think is the next step? If there is a step towards
1:03:21
progress, what is the next step you think is achievable?
1:03:27
I think that for many years now there is a path to the two state
1:03:31
solution because in the past even before October 7th when you
1:03:34
had Hamas in power in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority, so it
1:03:38
it was very difficult even to speak about the option to get an
1:03:41
agreement. Now there is a path, there is an
1:03:44
offer on the table to end the war, prisoners exchange deal,
1:03:47
the hostages coming back home, an alternative government in
1:03:51
Gaza that you are being led by the Palestinian Authority, Egypt
1:03:55
emirated in the in the Saudi moving forward to the two state
1:03:59
solution and having a regional peace between Israel and Saudi
1:04:02
Arabia and other countries. This is the path for some kind
1:04:07
of hope for Israelis and also for the Palestinians.
1:04:11
This is not something that was not there before.
1:04:15
Unfortunately, there is not enough political will and
1:04:18
there's not enough support among the Israelis for this, this
1:04:23
package, but this is where we have to go.
1:04:26
I think that the next question will come immediately after the
1:04:29
war is about the consequences of the war, about the
1:04:33
accountability, about the ICC about to indict who and who is
1:04:38
the war criminals here. I think this may the main, these
1:04:41
will be the main questions. And our question here wouldn't
1:04:45
be the major question will be the consequences of the first
1:04:49
question, because when you deal with accountability, then the
1:04:53
question of the Palestinian, the right of Palestinian for self
1:04:56
determination will become easier question.
1:04:58
Because then first you would say this people passed genocide,
1:05:03
this people were killed, 10% of this people were killed and Gaza
1:05:09
was destroyed. And we don't have this in the
1:05:12
modern history that one area totally was destroyed and most
1:05:18
of its people became disabled. This is the main question.
1:05:21
This is what we are going to face.
1:05:23
And after that will be clear that the Palestinian have the
1:05:26
right for self determination. I think this is what we now
1:05:31
denying. We are denying just because we
1:05:34
are living the moment. I am Palestinian city of Israel,
1:05:37
I want to tell you crash something.
1:05:40
Do you know how I feel? I am Hebrew speaker, Arabic
1:05:43
speaker. I am like the German Jew who is
1:05:47
walking in Berlin in 1937 when his state killing his people and
1:05:54
he is wondering whether my turn will come soon or not.
1:05:58
This is what we are living. This is exactly what we are
1:06:01
living. So the question 2 state one
1:06:03
mistake I think will be a minor question.
1:06:06
The main question is accountability and who is
1:06:09
responsible for the genocide and about building Gaza.
1:06:12
This is the main question. I don't think any Palestinian
1:06:16
now today is concern about one state, 2 state.
1:06:20
If I will ask the Palestinian people to have demonstration,
1:06:23
support 2 state or one state, I won't find 100 persons to
1:06:28
demonstrate. But if I will tell them
1:06:30
demonstrate to stop the war, to stop the genocide, millions will
1:06:34
come to demonstrate. Well, you know, without getting
1:06:40
into sort of buzzwords and empty phrases, I think to a large
1:06:44
extent what Yariv said is correct.
1:06:46
Once we get to the stage that the the war ends and the
1:06:50
hostages come back and there's some type of responsible
1:06:54
governance in the Gaza Strip, whether it's organised by the
1:06:59
Emirates and, and the Egyptians and, and the Americans or
1:07:02
whoever. Once we get there, then we come
1:07:05
to back to the issue of, OK, are we going to be able to negotiate
1:07:11
1234 states or whatever and this will then be the issue.
1:07:16
And it takes 2 to tango. This can't be imposed
1:07:20
unilaterally. It has to be something to be
1:07:23
negotiated. And in order to negotiate, we
1:07:26
need people to willing to build up mutual trust and negotiate
1:07:32
with each other. Now I'm sure that that Yariv,
1:07:34
myself and possibly Hassan, we could possibly form a very good
1:07:39
negotiating group to negotiate these things, assuming that we
1:07:43
allow each other to talk. But this has to this is the pre
1:07:48
free requirement. First of all, there has to be a
1:07:51
willingness to negotiate and there has to be with whom to
1:07:54
negotiate. And at the moment there there
1:07:56
there's no real genuine Palestinian leadership that that
1:08:01
that's not afraid and that that's willing and able and
1:08:06
capable to take on the mantle of representing the Palestinian
1:08:11
people to negotiate. I think once this happens, then
1:08:15
I think the Israelis will be very happy to negotiate with
1:08:19
them. Yeah, and you need to end the
1:08:22
war. You can't do anything until.
1:08:24
Yeah, that's the first thing. And the hostages are home.
1:08:26
What happens to Gaza is going to be very determinative.
1:08:30
In other words, if you have some kind of a solution for Gaza that
1:08:33
could again become a prototype for what you might be able to
1:08:35
see in the West Bank, I think you're going to have in his
1:08:38
election, right? So it could be that the, the
1:08:42
next step would be under an Israeli leader who we don't know
1:08:46
who that would be. And that would definitely change
1:08:48
the question. You're definitely going to need
1:08:50
new Palestinian leadership. So I think in spite of the
1:08:54
declarations on September 22nd, you don't you don't have a
1:08:58
recipe right now for a successful 2 takes, but you
1:09:02
could the end to the Gaza war, a good conclusion to the day after
1:09:07
for Gaza that could be a prototype different leadership.
1:09:11
Yeah, I think you could. And you're going to have an
1:09:13
that. Might mean releasing people like
1:09:15
Malang Barghiti. It could be all kinds of things,
1:09:18
yes. I mean, you know, there's we're
1:09:19
assuming we're we're throwing around all these things as if
1:09:22
the reality today is going to be the forever reality.
1:09:27
But it's not just like the reality in 2022 is not it.
1:09:31
Who is in leadership in the United States?
1:09:33
Does this all happen in the next couple years while Trump, you
1:09:36
know, is in power, who becomes U.S.
1:09:38
President afterwards, etcetera, etcetera?
1:09:40
What happens with Russia and Ukraine?
1:09:42
All of these, all of these are ingredients, you know.
1:09:46
So it it, it turns a very simple thing, which is the self
1:09:50
determination of people into a very complex equation.
1:09:53
We must leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed
1:09:55
for joining us. Thank you.
1:09:57
That's the forecast from Jerusalem, The more cast
1:10:00
forecast. Until next time, Bye.
1:10:03
Bye.