Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Principles of Overlanding: Anthropology and the Overlander's Code

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Principles of Overlanding: Anthropology and the Overlander's Code · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and today I'm joined by doctor
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Brian Bass, and we're going to talk through the principles
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: of overlanding. The Overlanders Code. Now, this is something that
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: I worked with our editorial team on creating as a
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: compliment to other resources like tread Lightly and leave no Trace.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: This is specific to the considerations that we need to
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: have as travelers, primarily when we are adventuring abroad. So
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: we talk about the Overlanders Code. We also talk about
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: anthropology and the things that Brian Bass has learned in
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: his travels around the world as a modern day explorer,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: but then also as an archaeologist leaning into these ancient
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: cultures and the things that remain consistent throughout time for
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: us not only as travelers, but as humans. So this
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: is a great conversation with Brian, a longtime friend and
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: a trusted member of the editorial team. So please enjoy
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: my conversation with doctor Brian Bass. And a special thanks
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: to Treder for their support of this week's podcast. One
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• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Brian Man, thanks for being back on the podcast with
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: me here. I think this is number five or six
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: at least, I feel so. And I've always felt like
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: we need to kind of meter you out to the world.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, you are the world's most interesting man, so
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: like we can't like if we were to give you
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: all of them, all of Brian at once, I think
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: people would think that we were lying because you have
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: a pretty amazing life. I'd feel like I would have
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: to be making stuff to you. Well, so you're here
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: in town because you and your partner Nina You've got
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: and your son also is here, and you guys are
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: showing some horses, some Arabian horses at an Arabian horse
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: event in Northern Phoenix at Westworld, and you guys just
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: won like a couple things, yeah, a couple classes.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: But then they go on to the championship which is
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: in was actually tomorrow. So yeah, it's always a nail bier.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Let you go to those Arabian horse It's amazing. I mean,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: talk a little bit about the Arabian horse farm that
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: you live on, because like again we have to meeter
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: you out to the world. Yeah, I mean, it's it's
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: a very interesting scenario.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Really.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: Yanina's mom moved their entire family, which included horses and
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: furniture and everything, from the Black Forest in the mid
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighties to a farm in Santinez, California.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so her first language is German. Grew up
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: in Germany.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Really, Yanina moved when she was not Her mom put
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: her in a local school Insantineez and sat in the
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: back of their mom sat in the back of the
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: class to make sure that she would be able to
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: get through. Sure she didn't speak any English. Sure, and
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: so I'm assuming at that age I didn't learn a
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: foreign language at that time. But yeah, maybe a month
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: on she was able to not only read and write,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: but heard he speaking in English and and so, yeah,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: her mom has a pretty pretty well known program in
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: the Arabian horse breeding world. One point she actually bred
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: a straight Egyptian with a Spanish Arabian straight Egyptian Arabian
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: with a Spanish bred Arabian and kind of came up
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: with a different look for an Arabian. And they're they're
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: very interesting breed. I mean, they were obviously originally bred
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: to be in the desert, to be living in and
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: around bedouins, to cross vast stretches of desert with no water,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: probably no food, to be around humans. And uh, it's
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: it's just a really really great breed. They're they're not
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: necessarily the tallest of horses out there, but yeah, it's
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  Speaker 2: really great we have an ancient, ancient breed, ancient breed. Yeah,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: and uh, it's interesting to go to visit some of
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: the farms that we do around the world because many
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: of them are in the original locations.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just great.
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  Speaker 2: To connect with people with that are from the original
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  Speaker 2: cultures that that that bred those horses well.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: And if you think about a lot of what you
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: do on that farm, these are ancient practices animal husbandry,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: working with animals, livestock, horses in this case, you guys
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: raise You have grapes that you also cultivate. For one,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: you're a ventnor. We've talked about you being a vintnor
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: in some of the other podcasts. You have your own
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: your own line of wine, which is also incredible and
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: something that I enjoy testing on a regular basis. It's
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: the part of fields, my overland field testing that I
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: enjoy is testing Brian bass Is whatever your latest vintage is.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: But all of this kind of dovetails into the subject
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  Speaker 1: of today is you know, you're deeply connected in with
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: the past. You are as in your profession as an
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: archaeologist and an anthropologist. It's something that you dedicated your
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: academic career too, is learning about the past and learning
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: from the past. And then you still cultivate these incredible
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: things that connect us in with early humans, like horses
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: and and you know, raising grapes for wine. These are
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: things that have been around for thousands and thousands and
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  Speaker 1: thousands of years, and so that's what I want to
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: talk about today. I want to get into this subject
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: a little bit about why are travelers the way they are.
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  Speaker 1: What's some of the clues that we find in anthropology
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: that teach us about how we can be better travelers,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: maybe why we have anxiety as travelers, things that you've
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: learned in all of your travels around the world and
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: some of the travels that we've done together about how
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: to be a better traveler. And then we're going to
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: dig in a little bit into actually a part of
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: the book that I've got coming out, over Landing one
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: oh one. It's going to be sold by Simon and
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Schuster Adams. In fact, it's available right now for pre
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: order on Amazon dot com. But a chapter of the
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: book goes into tread lightly, it goes into leave no Trace,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: which are two incredibly important tenets for travelers and for
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: backcountry users. But then we dig in a little bit
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: deeper into what we call the overlander code, which is
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the responsibilities that we have not only to ourselves but
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: to other travelers when we're on the road. So we're
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: going to dig into that too. But I thought maybe
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I'd start off the conversation with what were some of
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: the things that you learned in anthropology that kind of
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: surprised you about humanity? What are some of the things
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: that you took away from you know, I mean you
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: went to you went you got your PhD in Edinburgh.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: What was the name of the Edinburgh university? University? Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: So what are some of the things that you learned
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: in anthropology that you found, even early in your life,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: helped you to be a better traveler.
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  Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. Actually, there is a slight dichotomy
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  Speaker 2: between archaeology as it's usually studied in Europe and archaeology
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  Speaker 2: as it studied in North America, because in the United States,
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  Speaker 2: for example, archaeology is a discipline within anthropology, and in
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  Speaker 2: most fields of study. In Europe, archaeology is a standalone department.
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  Speaker 2: For example, I'll bet you when I was in grad
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: school in Edinburgh, if I would have said I'll give
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: ten quid to anybody who can tell me where the
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: anthropology department is, they wouldn't have known. There's nothing wrong
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: with that, it's just a different approach. Sure, So from
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  Speaker 2: the American side of things, even if you just want
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  Speaker 2: to study archaeology, that's where you want to go. As
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: an undergrad, you still have to take classes in physical anthropology.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, there's all sorts of little disciplines within the
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  Speaker 2: discipline as well, cultural anthropology, linguistics, and I think that's
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  Speaker 2: what really started to form I won't say my worldview,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: but just how everything is so it's so diverse out there.
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  Speaker 2: I mean even just fascinatingly the Americas. If you think about,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: you know, the tip of South America all the way
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  Speaker 2: up to the last people that might be before the
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  Speaker 2: Arctic circle I mean, or within the Arctic circle. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: the diversity, it's mind blowing. And and then you have
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  Speaker 2: some professors talking about, you know, this group and that
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  Speaker 2: and what they do and how they do it, and
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  Speaker 2: I would say seventy five plus percent of it just
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  Speaker 2: seems completely foreign to a guy who grew up in
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  Speaker 2: southern California, Sure, like.
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  Speaker 1: Why did they do that? Why would they do that?
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  Speaker 2: And usually there's there's there's a reason for marriage practices
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  Speaker 2: or anything. You know, how they build their structures, what
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  Speaker 2: they eat, how they eat all of this, And and
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  Speaker 2: I think once once you start to examine it, maybe
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  Speaker 2: from from that angle where it's it's okay for you know,
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  Speaker 2: people to be different and and actually it's it's kind
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: of exciting, especially if you're in eating different foods, if
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: you're even if you're not into eating different foods, just
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: to see, you know, like, wow, I can't believe that
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  Speaker 2: they you know, they eat the cheek from the from
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: the tuna before or you know whatever it happens to be.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Like our experiences in Ethio. Yeah, I mean the food
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  Speaker 1: experiences were over the top.
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  Speaker 2: That's still to this day. It's almost a year ago,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: and uh I still I still need to track down
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  Speaker 2: like what was that?
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: What was in that?
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: The spice is the complexity. I think we talked about
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: how there was something that was quite hot, you know,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: like spicy hot, but then but then a minute later
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  Speaker 2: it's not burning your tongue anymore, almost like a wassabi.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: But it certainly wasn't a horse radish or something related
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: to that, and just incredible flavors and had nothing to
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: do with what you would eat in Kenya.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, completely different actually to do with what we ended
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  Speaker 3: up eating in Jibouti wasn't even close, no, no, And
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: so anyway, I think that that those early studies just
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: having to take exams on stuff, you know, describe this culture,
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  Speaker 3: describe that, you know, and we would have people come
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: in from from Northern Mexico, Native American and who spoke
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: their native language and then also Spanish. I remember we
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: had our linguistic professor, you know, would interviews lady and
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: her language, and it was just it was mind blowing,
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: you know, just clearly you know what they do, how
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: they do it, what they eat, how they go and
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: collect resources. And at that moment you realize, Wow, if
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: you're going to be a traveler, once you're in their area,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: it's it's okay to try to, you know, jump on
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: the coattail of how the locals do what they do.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: And I think that's also the the ticket to ride,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: especially as a traveler, Yeah, as somebody like an overlander
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: for example, about how to just get off the literal
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: and figurative beaten path. Yeah, and and just open up
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: your horizons and meet new people and have new experiences
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  Speaker 2: and and not just kind of follow what you found
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: in you know, on the internet or doing your homeworkhead
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: of time.
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  Speaker 1: Isn't that the difference between a tourist and a traveler,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the tourist is gonna usually have a really
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: short amount of time and they're going to follow a
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: pretty tight kind of schedule. They're going to see a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: lot of the high points or at least what you know,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: the general population or Instagram tells you as a high point.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Whereas once you get a chance to travel, especially like
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: even if you come back to our experiences in Ethiopia,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: we got to see everything from the south and the
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Omo Valley all the way all the way to these
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: you know, these like Harrah. I mean, talk about the
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: difference between those communities that we engage with in.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Almost nothing in common except for maybe their Ethiopian citizens.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: That's right. I mean, they didn't they didn't look the same,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: they didn't sound the same, they didn't eat.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: The same where it's different, clothing.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Completely different. And and maybe maybe that's part of it.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Where what were some of the memories when you look
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: back in your first travels where you realize like you
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: weren't in Kansas anymore, you weren't in you weren't in
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't in Beach anymore. So Cow anymore.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Well, certainly you know, as a kid, even before all
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: of these studies going to Mexico with my mom.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that would be a good one.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we did have back then. I think
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: things have changed now, but we did have required Spanish
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: even in like second grade, you know, Spanish class, fourth grade,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: fifth grade, and just it was the food, the people,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: you know. I remember driving around somewhere in the outskirts
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: of mast Lawn Way outside of the tourist zone and
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: a VW thing, you know, it was yellow, dude, right,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: like legit.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: And that your mom's car or no, no, something you rented.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Down there, Yeah, exactly, And just seeing these villages.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: And yeah, wow, you know that's that's we don't live
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: that way and this is cool, you know, and then
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: eating and just kind of seeing the cultures and interacting
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: when you could.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Obviously back then it wasn't like I interacted a lot
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: with with the local I think.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I think Mexico and to even a greater degree, Latin
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: America deserves so much credit for their ability to be
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: so hospitable. I mean, like I would credit not not
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: my first travels to Italy, even though they were very
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: like Italy made me curious about the world. It made
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: me realize that again I wasn't in Kansas anymore. I
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: think just like there, I was. I was in the
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Air Force, and just like you, I grew up in
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: southern California, and that was my lens of the world.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of diversity in southern California. Not compared
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: to the global global scale, but there is a lot
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: of diversity in southern California. So I did, you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: learn about other cultures or people who came from other places,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: and and that was certainly important formative for me. But
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: you know, going as a Southern California kid and landing
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: landing in Rome, in Rome, and then eventually landing in
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: southern Italy, and I mean that was that certainly made
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: me curious about the rest of the world. But also
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: say that my early trips, my very early overland trips,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: they were all to Mexico because it was close and
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: it kind of gave me that opportunity to really learn
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and stretch my experience, and they were so overwhelmingly positive
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: that it made me realize, like, I want to do this.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: I want to see how other you know, people that
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: are different even from people in Mexico, how do they live?
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: You know, how do people in Panama live, or how
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: do people wherever in the world, Mongolia, take your pick,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: but I think Mexico deserves a lot of credit for
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: like how hospitable and how open they are to travelers,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: and really it makes a great experience for a lot
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: of people. Sure. And just also the food. Yeah again
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: of great food, great food, like great food, great people,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: family oriented people. You know, they're they're proud of their
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: country and they're and they're stoke that you're there and
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: joy in it too. Yeah. So yeah, I've just had
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: nothing but positive experiences with that, which is so sad
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: to see how things are, of course, you know, projected
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: so much different in the media than reality on the ground.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't mean that there aren't places in
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Mexico that are unsafe, but there are also places in
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Saint Louis that are unsafe. Sure, yeah, and you've talked
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: about that too, Brian is like it's it's like, don't
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: get too caught up in the micro like this one
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: small place is having trouble, Like look at the bigger picture.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that's always important. I mean,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: obviously it's easier now than it was thirty years ago.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of stay up to date.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Through you know, State Department, even you know, British Foreign
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Office kind of you know, publications, things that are online,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: areas to avoid or areas to go through and just
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: have a little bit more situational awareness, yep, because you
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: can also have the best experiences in those spots too.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know there are people that that enjoy
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: just going to war zones and things like that for
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: the fact of of the threat element. But but for
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: other people, you can go through areas that are let's
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: say marginal, you know, maybe not controlled by a central
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: government and and have really great experiences running local people
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: and and uh and you know, and it's only as
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: it's only as scary as you want to make it
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: in many cases.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, don't don't get me wrong.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: You know, you do have to have an awareness of
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: what's going on around you, and you do have to
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: be cognizant of when you know, hey, we're out of here,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: or you know, you know, or we're not going there.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Or One that comes to mind for me was when
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: we were stuck at the Jibouti border. I remember feeling
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: really uncomfortable for a period of time mm hmm, like
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I felt like I was at risk yeah, I didn't.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: I didn't have that feeling. Yeah, and I don't. I
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: rarely have it. I rarely have that feeling. And I
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: think it was, you know, it was that the you know,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: the war in the Middle East had kicked off, you
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: know that, and it didn't seem like it was very
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: well locked down like like.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: That there's stuff going on and at that time, like
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: literally at that time, I mean that was a very remote,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: unique border crossing. I mean we saw anything and everything
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: go on right there. But even then, you know, like
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: within a few hours, the local police force, I think
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: the best way to describe it, took pity upon us.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. For sure, they're like.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow, cool car.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: You know, what is this thing?
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: You know, they wanted to look in it and check
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: it out, and they're like, yeah, you know, there's some
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: paperwork and okay, and then you know, I don't know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: a few hours later, the one law enforcement officer went
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: and got us some water and you know, and then said, yeah, sure,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: just sit right here next to the customs table. We were.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it was almost like we got
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: to see everything that they took.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Out of people's bags.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Pretty much everyone who walked up had to take everything
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: out of their bags.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: It was it was pretty interesting, and then we were
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: just part of the scenery. And maybe that's another good
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: example of that one official. And I still stay in
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: touch with him a little bit on WhatsApp. But we
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: had a different experience with him because he did work
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: with the UN and had been overseas, and he had
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: been overseas, and he had had experience with other cultures
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: and so he had a broader perspective and he was,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: you know, I thought he was really gentle on us overall.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Like he was. He was really thoughtful, Yeah, what we
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: were going with, what we were going through, and he
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: had a he had a bigger picture. So I think
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: it all comes back to this idea that I think
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: as human beings, and I'd love for you to expound
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: upon this concept. But as human beings, we haven't operated
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: in modernity for very long, Like we're talking about one
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: hundred years that we've been able to communicate in the
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: way that we do now, which is over telegram or
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: telegraph or any other version of technology that's developed since then.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: So things happened very slowly before that, and human beings
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: didn't really understand the world. I mean it wasn't until
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Marco Polo that you really had the first idea or
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: concept of a tourist, which was an affluent young man
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: who basically and his family and his family like he
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: just went along like probably incompetent as a businessman. So
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: his dad basically allowed him to I'm paraphrasing what I
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: remember the story to be, but basically he was allowed
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to be a tourist. But that wasn't until what was
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: that the fourteen fifteen hundreds? Am I right on the
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I think I'm right on the date timeline, but like
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: it that's not that long ago, not that many generations ago.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: No, And when you think about it from more of
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: like a let's say, an arca logical like prehistory, protostory,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: or into you know, more more modern times, let's say
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: written history, So Greco Roman history, I know there's written
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: history before that, even you know, say Egyptian time. There
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: are books that address their texts that address you know,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: foreigners and trading and practices and and it was still
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: and still is to this day unfortunately seen as us
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: in them.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, And uh is that protective to a degree? Do
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: you think? I mean, it seems like it would be
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: a little bit it would happen.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: To be I think linked linked to that original notion
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: of you know, and and resources. You know, we we
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: have the you know, the the white cowry shells, and
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: we want to trade them for the obsidian that we
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: don't have that stone material, and they do and so
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: let's trade with them for that. Hey, do you have
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: anything else to trade with us? And so then and
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: then they're speaking possibly different languages or dialects of a
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: similar language group. And so but it's okay, like you know,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: even for somebody who's from Western European uh lineage. You know,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I go to Scandinavian countries, it's like, wow, okay, this
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: is this is not and I'm not from this and
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: and and there's a familiarity. And at the same time
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: there's also you know, nuances within within that culture for example,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: where it's like wow, okay, we don't do it that way,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: all right, or you know, I'm not familiar with that.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: That's great. One of the ones I found the most
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: acute in that regard is Japan, where they are so
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: advanced and so first world yet completely different, like almost
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: completely different culturally. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, And the nuances
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: and I love I love that. I love that. I
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: love that they have been able to achieve all of
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: the success of modern standards for a civilization and yet
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: retain so much of their culture and their heritage in
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: the process. That's pretty unique. Is that unique and difficult
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: to do?
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: It's easier to do when you live on an island
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: or a group of islands. That makes sense that that's
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: that's kind of interesting.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: In another what excuse to the Brits have?
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Then the British have things that are very unique to
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: their island.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: That's true, that's true, and I think that that that's
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: maybe what what also has allowed you know, at least
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: culturally the British to be so prolific. I mean, obviously
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: they did control a big chunk of the world for
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: a very long period of time, but even today, like
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of appeal even to a British accent,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of cultural and cultural appeal to that.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then anyone who wants to get their way
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: in the United States, for example, if you just speak
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: with the British accent, you'll immediately overcome all of the
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: obstacles you have versus speaking in an American.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: That's so true. That's so true. Maybe we use too
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: many likes. I don't know, could be yeah.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Unless you're using a proper.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Sense, right, Yeah, But I found I find that so
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: so neat that that can still exist in the world,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: whereas like I felt this sense of urgency for years
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: of like I need to go experience some of these
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: cultures that are vanishing. Yeah, you're being homologated into Western think,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: which I'm not saying it's bad, it's just that's what's happening.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: It's like, it's it could be that we're looking at
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: we are part of a transition that you know, we're
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: we're in it right now and we're able to recognize,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: let's say, some nuances of it. But in one hundred years,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: people will point out, you know, that was, you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty f I was sort of the beginning
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of this, or that there is I just spoke yesterday
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: with a a h a, an Arabian horse breeder who's
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: from from Italy, and she was saying that that it's
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: really hard to find people that will work on the
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: farms in any capacity in rural areas of Italy. Nobody
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: wants to be there anymore. They want to be you know,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: where it's happening in the big cities, and same things
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: happening for example, off the coast to Croatia on the islands.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, people.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Want to be where the action is and they you know,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: on their mobile phone, on their on their laptop, they
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: see what's happening.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: They you know, they they want to be in split.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: They don't want to be in Yeah.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, originally, when when
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: a certain fast food chain opened up one of their
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: branches and split on the Croatian coast, it it didn't
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: go over well, probably because if people's grandma's you know,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: found out that they had eaten at a fast food,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: they say'd be in a lot of trouble. And it's funny,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: you know, because I grew up in Los Angeles, so
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: when I'm in those locations, it's like, oh, this is great.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, you guys have two hundred olive trees
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: that belong to your family. Can't believe that you make
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: your own olive oil. Can't believe that's so cool. And
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: then you have one of the kids go, yeah, it sucks.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I don't want to you know, when we have the
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: olive harvest. You know, I don't want to be here.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: It's so backbreaking, and and you have these life ways
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: that are they're not they're not on their way out.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: They're just now becoming a little bit more to use
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: the word boutique, but it's almost like that's really where
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: it's it's going.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I want to thank all of you that are listening
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: for your support of the Overland Journal podcast. There are
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: times that our listeners reach out and ask for ways
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: that they can support the podcast directly, and the best
• 27:53
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• 27:55
  Speaker 1: that is to subscribe to Overland Journal. The print magazine
• 28:00
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• 28:04
  Speaker 1: a beautiful one hundred and thirty to one hundred and
• 28:06
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• 28:10
  Speaker 1: of the very best overland adventures that are occurring in
• 28:13
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• 28:17
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• 28:23
  Speaker 1: main gear reviews, where we still declare an editor's choice,
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• 28:35
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• 28:38
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• 28:42
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• 28:44
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• 28:51
  Speaker 1: percent off your next work. Thank you again for all
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: of your support. Yeah, I think when when I look
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: at as travelers, like we we should have this desire
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: to learn about people that are different from us. We
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: should also have we also need to recognize that we
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: have a responsibility to minimize like I think the clearest
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: way to say it is the corruption of of a culture,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Like we have to be really careful about how we
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: interact with a with a culture especially that has had
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: limited contact, where we were not putting our ideas that's
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: been done for a very long time, where people come
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: in and force force their force their ideas. So what
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: are your some of your some of your thoughts around
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: that about how do we be a little gentle around
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you know, we have we live a fast paced, electronically driven,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: you know, consumer driven life, many of us in America,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Like how do we in the world, in the Western world, Like,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: how do we in your experience, how do we be
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: a little more gentle around how we interact with other cultures.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I think the best approach is to jump on their
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: bandwagon when you're in in their world. Yea, to me,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: that's the adventure. Yeah, I mean, I can't tell you.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: It probably would have taken me three years to do
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: my PhD instead of four if I didn't get sidetracked
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: all the time. You know, I was based on this
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: island off the coast of Croatia, and this village the
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: time maybe had like four thousand, four thousand, five hundred
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: people living. It's the largest village on any of the
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: twelve hundred Croatian islands. Wow, And it was so easy
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: to get sidetracked. And obviously I'm in a black and
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: white film photography, but I would be.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: They gave me this little office in the.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Museum and people would come by, Oh, hey, we're going
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: fishing today.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: You want to come out?
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Uh sure, okay, you know, and then it wouldn't be
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: just like, you know, we'll go.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Out ten in the morning and come back three in
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: the afternoon.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Next thing you know, we're pulling into some bay where
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: they have a little little hut where the grandpa used
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: to you know, base his fishing operation, and now we're
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: grilling some fish, you know, and hanging out and having
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: some wine unlabeled bottle of red wine, and and uh,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: just experiencing. And then it just that seemed to happen
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: quite a bit.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Or even when we were out doing archaeological survey, you know,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: we try and check in with local farmers villagers, especially
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: if we started to find some materials, to say, some
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Roman pottery or something like that, and we'd find a
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: local farmer.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Hey, you know, we.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: See a lot of this on your terrace wall. Do
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: you have any more of it? You know, we're just
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: this what we're doing. Yeah, sure, but you know what,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: we're just making some fish right now. Come on, and
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: my wife is gout, you know, this hard liquor, and
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just you go down the rabbit hole.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: That was pretty much what happened to us in Ethiopia.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: It was us being plied with food we probably shouldn't eat,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: and drinking like alcohol of known origins. Yeah, though I
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: think it should be okay, Yeah, but some of it wasn't.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Some of it was chewy, as you recall.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's that's that's the approach that
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: I've always had, you know, is I don't need to
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: pull out any wizardry, uh you know, electronic equipment, and
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I don't need to pull out my power bar either.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: You know, if if it's a group that that snacks
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: on this nut or that berry, or they eat a
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: certain way.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I'm cool with it.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, still, I don't feel like getting
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: some stomach bug and being laid out for a month
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: and a half. So I do everything within what I
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: know I'm capable of doing.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: I probably pushed that limit a little bit more than
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: I should.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: It's okay, I mean, as long as you know, you
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: know what I was down the risk Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: And then also if you have stuff to treat it,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: but fortune it's okay. You know, sometimes the experience outweigh
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: is you know a little bit of a a rumbley gut.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: To have a bottle of flagele and a couple others.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just in case you need exactly, But I think
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: it's okay. You know, it's it's great to go on
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: a hike with people, Let's say they're going resource collecting,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: and you don't have to be with some native population
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: who's you know, one generation outside of using stone tools,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: I mean all around the Mediterranean basin, for example, people
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: still go out and collect wild varietals of especially you know,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: different plants and vegetables and things to eat every single day. Amazing,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: and they're just available growing wild, you know. I mean
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: stuff that we take for granted, you know, going to
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: the market, but capers, asparagus.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I mean the list goes on.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the next thing, you know, you see them
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: all in there, in there at lunchtime, you know, being
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: prepared certain ways, you know, or canning things, pickling things,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: you know, putting it in brine, you know, and they're
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: going to have it six months later.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: And I think that's.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Part of the for me, that's part of the rush
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: of you know, just existing with other cultures and just
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: kind of seeing even though I know when I go
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: back home, I might not be eating any.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Of that kind of stuff. Yeah, you may never get
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: a chance to do that again. Yeah. One of the
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: things that I've had, I've had a couple people ask
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: me after the podcast that we've done with you is
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll take a couple different approaches towards this. But
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of us that our travelers do
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: have an interest or a fascination in anthropology and archaeology.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: If someone wants to just become a little bit better
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: informed and maybe learn, like what they're looking at, how
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: to properly handle or not handle things, how to maybe
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: even get engaged with some of the practices around archaeology.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: What are a couple books or resources that you like
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: that you could point people towards to learn a little
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: bit more about that when they're in their travelers try
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: and when they're in their travels.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Well even maybe before their travels. You know, there's now
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: with online resources, it's it's quite easy to get a
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: serious background, even from different sources about a location, the geography,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: the cultures, the food, the history that you should expect
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: to see, should say above ground, the history that you
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: might be able to see on the ground, the history
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: that's been found below the surface, you know, meaning excavations
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: or maybe or even in the water, natural phenomena and
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: in the water, and and a lot of that's available online.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: And you know, in most places on our fine planet,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: most countries, and there are quite a few of them,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: you're not really allowed to go out and start picking
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: stuff up. I know that that's it's going to bother
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of people.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Just is what it is.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, it's their history, it's there, it's it's
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: not only their history. But but when you take things
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: out of context and then it's on your mantelpiece at home,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: it doesn't mean it's just it's only maybe your memory.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't help anybody. I mean, I leave as
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: you know, mostly I have like bric a brac. I
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: don't have any kind of let's say artifact per se
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: around my office or in the house.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Family stuff I've noticed that, you know.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: But and it's not because I'm not supposed to. I
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: am not supposed to as a professional archaeologist. But it's
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: fairly useless. I mean, like when I teach classes for
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: kids about stone tool technology, it's fine to have like
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: a replica of let's say some flint acts or you know,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: some some flint, some arrowheads or something like that. It's
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: you know, the the learning perspective. From the learning perspective,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: it's all still there. They don't need to be looking
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: at a real five thousand year old projectile point. Yeah,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: well I can always show that stuff, you know, in
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: the in the PowerPoint.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: You know, part of the presentation.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: So yeah, overall, I would say, without diving into the
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: real regulatory environment, I think it's important that people you know,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: like take only memories, leave only footprints, you know, that
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: that sort of approach. But at the same time, if
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: somebody is really into it, especially these days, volunteer for
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: a project that was even and you don't have to
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: be a professional archaeologist necessarily. I mean, obviously you should
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: have a background. But there are plenty of projects out there.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: When I say plenty, I.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Mean hundreds, if not thousands, where they want a volunteer
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: or volunteers to help clean pottery, label stone tool material,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: help glue, or prepare for other kinds of you know,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: preservation or conservation pottery, or rifle through people's field notes
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day and make sure everything's
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: in order.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: I mean there's so many different angles. I mean, everything
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: from stuff in Egypt to is just people like me
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: who you know, are mostly focused on on the consulting
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: side of archaeology, where we go out and dig in locations,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: you know, mostly in like the SoCal Greater area. There's
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff to be seen, a lot of
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: stuff to be experienced, yeah, but especially these days, you
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: know you can you can volunteer and there's plenty avenues
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: online for that to find out. You know, they're going
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: to want to make sure that that you're okay being
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: in another culture. You'll probably have to pay your own way.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Usually it's you pay your way. It's like a round
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: trip and bring you know what we used to call
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: beer money, and that's about it. I mean a lot
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: of projects, you know, they'll have like a dig house
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: all set up and everyone gets.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: A bunk and then there you go maybe get it,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: maybe get a me or two during the day and
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: a meal or truer during the day, a day or
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: two off a week.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I've I rode that way
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: for a long time and it was it was great
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: just to experience other archaeology and uh, you know, not
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: to show up with any expertise necessarily. It's just like,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: put me in work. What do you need me to do? Yeah, swing,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: swing the pick and the shovel. Fine, you know, do
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: the stuff that's not the finesse work.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I'm okay with that, Yeah, totally.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: You know, clean off pottery and sit there and label
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: stuff with special pens.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, too, whatever, sign me up. Yeah, it's it's funny.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: One of the other questions that I got, this was
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: months and months ago, to ask you was I mean,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: when people think of archaeology, they you know, culturally, you
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: at least in the West, like we think of Indiana Jones,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: we think of the Fedora and the whip. So you know,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: they think about, you know, the boulder coming down through
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: the causeway and you're you know, you're dodging the poisonous
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: arrows that somehow remained under tension for fifteen hundred years
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: or whatever. But you've got to have had some experience
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: that was close to that in all of theology.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Do you have a story for us? I probably have
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: quite a few stories.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I mean kind of did you ever step on a
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: stone and it went right? No?
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, when you're anytime you're you're you're handling,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: you're discovering artifacts, especially artifacts where another human built it,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: made it, interacted with it, used it. And it might
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: have been five hundred years ago, it might have been
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: five thousand years ago. I mean that that.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: That blows my mind. Yeah, still, I bet.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, for example, I think when we found that
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: that Ashulian hand acts, you know, on on you know,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: the kind of the greater margins of the Lake Turkana
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: area and eastern or sorry, western western Kenya. I mean
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: that was whoa mind blowing yeah for me, and not
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: just because you know.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: And that would be that would have been tens of
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: thousands years old. Oh no, much more than that. Wow.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: I mean it's hard, you know, because there was quite
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: a range. It's kind of like saying, you know, everyone's
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: has a screwdriver, and back then that was sort of
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: like your screwdriver, you know, maybe had the you know,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: the Phillips head and the cross you know that was used.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: So it could have been hundred thousand years old. Oh no,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: it could be closer to a million. Unbelievable.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know that's that's always I think something
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: that then I'm still just amazed by. And frequently it's
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: something that I know that I can't make on my own,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter how cool I think I am. You know,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: napping some flint or whatever.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: You see some of these stools, and uh, the precision
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: of some of them, like the care that went into
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: something like that, it mattered. Yeah, it mattered.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: It wasn't just you know some hobbyists who had it
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: as a you know, a lab class, you know, for
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: archaeology three oh one at university or something like that.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: It mattered like that was how you were gonna That's
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: how you were going to maybe take an animal or
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: dress the animal, or dig out some roots or tubers,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: you know, for your evening meals for the next week
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: and a half or something. It wasn't just sort of
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: a passing thing. But I think in my own experiences
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I kind of talked about this may have been, might
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: have been about two years ago at at one of
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: the Northwest Overland rallies, was not only driving vehicles in
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: weird places, you know, but having.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Toilet issues. Sure those are.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Those are the memories that pop out, not like poisonous arrows,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Sure like this, but just trying to start, okay now
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: and now what am I going to do? Like there's
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: no like pharmacy down at the end, That's right. I
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: always talk about, you know, things like that that you know,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: I try and have the best view of it because
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: it'll happen obviously. You know, you come from one place
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: with one kind of food, one kind of water source,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: and then you go to another location and you know,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: how it is. Sometimes you're you're in eyeball deep right
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: off the bat. The same day that you land, you're already, hey,
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: we'll take you to lunch. And you know, you fly
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: from literally from Los Angeles to connect somewhere, and then
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: you're in Windhook, Namibia, and then they're taking you out
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: at lunch the same day and they're like, wow, okay.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Here we go, here we go. Yeah. So not not
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: so many dodging. No, I've had. I've had things poisoned darts, but.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: No, I've had I've had great experiences on my on
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: my BMW, the R one hundred gs. You know that
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: I kind of converted to a Paris to car configuration
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: that I probably wouldn't have had if I would have
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: been let's say, driving of vehicle like one ten or
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: some land Cruiser or something like that, just because of
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: what happens when you're on a motorcycle, like getting pulled
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: over by police that just wanted to chat. Yeah, or
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: I see you have a California plate, but but you
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: know you're in Bosnia, right, you know, like things like
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: that or sure cool, okay, you know, just seeing where
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: things go, and I love that. I Uh, one time
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: I it's it's really the only time. I don't like
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: to talk about crashing motorcycles. But I did have to
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: lay my bike down once on a rainy road in
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: the Slovene Alps.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And uh, and I was.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Going, I don't know, you know, twenty twenty five kilometers priory.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: It wasn't really but I had all my saddle bags
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: and everything was on it. And it was right in
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: front of this this farmhouse. And so I picked up
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: the bike. You know, it's like, oh, what a bummer.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: There was a car that had slammed on the brakes
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: right in front of me. Sure of course that card
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: long since gone. So I get the bike up, put
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: it on the center stand. I'm on the side of
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: the road. There's nobody with beautiful location. This farmer comes
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: out and asks me if I'm okay, you know, and
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't speak Slavin language, but I speak
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Serbo Croatian Croatian and and it's they're close enough. Turned
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: out the guy spoke German too, and within about thirty
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: seconds he had me drinking some kind of hard liquor
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: that his wife had made. It was like some strawberry
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: based something.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's going to make sure you bounce back from me.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and and so you know it was and
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: of course the front brake line had completely pinched, and
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: so I had no front break with a bike fully
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: loaded and in a drum rear brake, and I had
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: to get all the way down.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: And it was wet, and it was wet, and I
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: had to get.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: All the way down to the ferry in Rieka, in Croatia.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: So I wasn't even in Croatia yet at the time.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: And that that whole experience where when I did get
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: a brake line finally delivered and and that the banjo
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: bolt it up by the reservoir, one of my buddies
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: was like, oh no, I'll tighten that while you're doing
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: some I can't remember what.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: I wasn't paying attention.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I would think I was adjusting the valves on the
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: bike coincidentally at the same time, and then he totally
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: stripped over tight. You know, It's just this cascade of like, Okay,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: there's not even that time there there's no BMW dealership
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: in the mid nineties when they're having a civil war
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: in ex Yugoslavia. Where am I going to get This
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: is the break reservoir. He also like torqued the heck
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: out of the banjo the bolt. So I ended up
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: taking the bolt to a shipyard like in the village,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: and they said, okay, we can well replicate it. It'll
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: be in brass right. So like a day later they
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: came back with that perfect. So then a buddy of
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: mine in Germany sent down the you know, the actual
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Brake reservoir and sure, you know, so I was like back,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: but just that sidetracked me on all this. I find
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: that that's really the adventure. It's not like getting shot
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: at by the bad guy.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, but that's pretty rare that happens.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean as a matter of fact, I
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: mean as you same with you. I'm sure you're around
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: people with firearms and different capacities. You know, it might
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: be police, military, militias.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Ye, who knows what.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: But the closest that I ever came to some bullet
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: flying my way was actually in a beer garden in Zurich,
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Switzerland at the right Haul, you know, the old Swiss
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Swiss military riding hall. And I can't remember the full circumstances,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: but police were chasing some guy who had crossed over
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: from Germany, and then somehow they were running after him
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: and they there was a lot of yelling and firing
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: and wow, right right, you know, and I had my
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: beer and I was eating a broadthurst and then you know,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: within thirty seconds everything was back to normal.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah, it's funny how it works out.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: It never ends up being exactly the kind of adventure
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: that we envision, but it tends to be the kind
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: of adventure that we really need. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I mean the footnotes end up being, yeah, the important
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: part of your the description of your of your trip.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we learn a lot through that process. All right, well,
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: let's let's go through this overlander. Could I think it'd
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: be kind of fun to talk about it. And and
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: I've not shared this with anybody yet. It's going to
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: be in the book that's coming out. But of course
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: it went the screen went dead here, Okay. So I
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: didn't want to replicate what tread Lightly does because they
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: do a great job. I didn't want to replicate what
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: Leave No Trace does because they do a really great
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: they do a really important job. But I thought about, like,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: as travelers, as overlanders, we know we you know, we're
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: we're spending a lot of time in these countries. We're
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: moving through areas in these countries where they maybe have
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: very limited interaction. We're having a lot of communication and
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: doing business with a lot of beerocrats and a lot
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: of officials through the process. So I kind of work
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: through the list here and I'm going to read each
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: one off and then we can kind of discuss it.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: So the first one is that kindness is the key.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: You know, overland travel inevitably leads to challenging situations and encounters.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: So it is our responsibility to limit conflict, be patient,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: and be good ambassadors for travelers who will follow in
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: our footsteps. And you know, you always think about you know,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: they call it the angry American for a reason because
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: I've seen them, you know, in France or wherever. I mean,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: they wonder why Parisians don't like them. It's because you're
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: trying to yell at someone in English that doesn't understand
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: English that you want an ice cream. And you think,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: and you think, and you think that the louder your
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: voice gets, the more that they're going to comprehend a
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: language that they don't speak. So, you know, I think
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: that people get they have an idea in their head
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: about how travel should go for them. They get really
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: frustrated when it doesn't go according to plan. But like
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: how many days in your own town the things go
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: exactly according to plan, they don't. So I think we
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: really need to be kind to the people that we
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: interact with. You give any thoughts on that one, No.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: I mean really, it's not just that, but when you're
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: in when you're at a different location, I mean, if
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: you're talking about, for example, France, Yeah, let's even narrow
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: it down to Paris. I've actually had more rude experiences.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: In New York. Yeah.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: Actually, I haven't run into whoever is supposed to be
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: the super rude person in Paris, France. I've been there
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: quite a bit.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen it.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: I haven't run into that person. Now, it's a big
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: city and things move at a fast pace. And if
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: you get to the front of the line and you're
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: supposed to be ordering street food right or something like that,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: and you should have had your act together while you
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: were third back in the line, Well, it's the same anywhere,
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: and then you're going to get to the front and go, uh, now,
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: the you know, the purveyor of whatever it is is
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: is like, Okay, come on, you know, what's your problem.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: You know you would get that same kind of thing.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: You definitely get it in New York.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, sure places. So sometimes I think people, you know,
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: they they walk themselves into that quagmire of yeah, god,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: they're so rude, and it's like, well, but they're not
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: on vacation right now. That's that person is doing their
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: job whatever it happens to be. And and you're the
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: one trying to have the cool cultural experience, and uh,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: and that might be the part of the cool cultural
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: experience might be.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: That that people move.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: At a faster pace and they might appear rude and
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: then ride that wave.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: That's right. Just be a part of it and recognize
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: that you're there by choice, like you're you're on vacation,
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: so you're making the choice to be there, so maybe
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: have a little bit of different perspective on it. The
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: next one on the list is and that the touches
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: on what we talked about for the last thirty minutes
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: or so, which is respect the unique cultures you visit
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: as guests of the countries and region and that we visit.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: We often encounter unique traditions, beliefs, values, and norms that
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: are different from our own. Research these differences and assimilating
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: as much as possible is important to help minimize conflict
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: and misunderstanding.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Yep, definitely. I mean, for example, if you go to
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: a place where if you go into certain kind of structures,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: maybe sacred location, if you're supposed to have your head
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: covered or your arms like full length, don't expect that
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to be showing up any other way. Yeah,
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: and it's just being respectful. Yeah, they still know that
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: you're not from there, they know that you can't speak
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: the local language.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: But make an effort.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: But make it, make an effort. And even if it's hey,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: I don't have it, I don't have long sleeves, you know,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: or I'm wearing my shorts. Sorry, I forgot. Do you
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: have anything or can you suggest something? I would say
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: that nine times out of ten, some local will come
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: up with something, you know, a sarong or a longer
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: sleep long sleeve shirt or some sort of like a
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: kaffe uh, you know, a generic colored one. Hey, just
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: put this thing on when you go out, just kind
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: of put it back off to the side, or whatever,
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: you know, so that you can go in and see
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: some cool you know, archaeological site or whatever it happens
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: to be, and experience the culture.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: And and.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean it's it's a given that you
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be rude. I mean, I don't I don't want
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: rude people, you know, showing up into my.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Town, coming to your farm or whatever. And I and
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: I that's where that research ahead of time is so important.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: If you're going to a country where it's considered disrespectful
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: to be wearing shorts, don't wear shorts, Yeah, like, just
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: don't do it. Yeah. And if it's just like you're
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: not entitled't then don't.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Expect to have respect.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: But if you've made an effort, even if it's you know,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: you wore long pants but they're they're just kind of
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: a funny color or whatever they're they're going to have
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: a great time. They'll appreciate that. Around here, everyone wears khaki,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: but that's great. You know, we love blue jeans or whatever.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's uh. And that's going to help.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: You integrate more with locals and and experience you know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: probably what you went there for the first place, to experience.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the books that I recommend is I
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: think it's called Kiss, Bow or Shake Hands is the
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: name of the book, and it goes into these unique
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: cultural perspectives that different countries have, so that you you can,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: if you read it for that wherever you're going to
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: go visit, it can help you not have those misunderstandings
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: as easily you come in a little bit better prepared
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: and a little more respectful. I think that that's that's
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: a good resource. And there's lots of great books about
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: like the history of a region, the history of a country,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: and if you take some time to read those things,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: even when you're on a plane, pick up a couple
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: local you know, phrases of thank you, and a couple other,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: a couple other things like that. Then you're making a
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: real effort and people will pick up on that. They'll
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: see that you're trying.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: And they'll know that you're not a local for sure.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. All right. So then the next one
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: is take responsibility for your actions. This is an important one,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: and I see people for their own convenience bypassing this
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: on a fairly regular basis. But accidents can happen during travel,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: so it's essential to take responsibility if livestock is injured
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: or killed, or a vehicle accident occurs, have sufficient have
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: sufficient currency available to resolve those incidents ethically and generously.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: You know, if you were to run over a goat
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: in a lot of countries, that could have a material
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: impact on that family. So yes, it's super unfortunate, but
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: that's what accidents are. Accidents were, and they're an unplanned event,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: and you again chose to be there. You're there on
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: your own will, and you're you're a traveler, you're not,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: you're not, you don't have to be there. So if
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: you take out somebody's livestock, like you have a responsibility
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: to stop and find out who that goat owns to own,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: who owns the goat, and how to fairly compensate them
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: in their local currency so that those families aren't adversely affected.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: And you want to be generous. You don't want to
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: be excessive in your compensation because then that creates and
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: a challenge for future travelers that may be coming through
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: there where you know, maybe they're even looking for the
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: opportunity for you to hit a goat. But you just
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: find out how much the boat find out how much
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: the goat's worth, and maybe ask a couple people, and
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: then make sure you compensate that family if you can.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: I mean I think that would be again, even even
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: if somebody happened to be in your neighborhood.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not so much.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Maybe with a goat, but not to run over your
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: cat and just take off or something like that. Yeah,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: it's considered pretty poor, like you were saying, you know,
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: in cultures where there is there's an important value to
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: it monetary and otherwise, Yeah, for livelihood, it would be
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: important to compensate.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: You get in an accident, you damage someone's vehicle, that
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: could be the vehicle that the entire family uses, could
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: be you know, the the vehicle of that transports and
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: really important goods in and out of a village. So
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: making sure that you'd make people whole if you do
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: have an accident is important. So yeah, yeah, And and and.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: Taking responsibility for it and stepping up and not just
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: going well, here all hand over a couple of hundreds,
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: and you know, everything will be going, everything will go away.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: And sometimes when the when the police get involved, they'll
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: take the money from you and those people will never
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: see it. They're going to let you go on your way.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: So it's about again coming back to taking responsibility of
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: ensuring that that family is made whole in whatever way
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: you need to, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: But that's what accidents, that's how accidents work. You got
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: to you got to take responsibility for what happened, all right.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: So the next one is do no harm. Research the
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: regions you're visiting and understand the implications of your actions.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: Harmful actions include giving treats or money to children at
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: the roadside, as this encourages them to run into the
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: street with the possibility of being hit. Avoid driving on
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: remote tracks and heavy rains to limit trail damage and
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: dispose of all waste properly. Travel as a solo vehicle
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: or in small groups to minimize campsite damage and impact
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: on local infrastructure. There's some things that come to mind
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: as examples around this, and this is particularly true of
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: the heavy expedition vehicles. The number of bridges that have
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: been damaged, and these are maybe bridges that have been
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: around for a very long time. It's the only way,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: the only efficient way for people to get goods and
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: services in and out of local villages. Is over these bridges.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: So making sure that you know, if you don't know
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: what the rating of the bridge is, take some responsibility
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: and find another way if it's clear that you're going
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: to be straining that really important causeway of goods in
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: and out of a community, because there's you know, there's
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: some pretty impactful images that show unimogs and stuff like
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: that that have broken through bridges and they're now now
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: it's it's completely blocked and now like the village is
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: trying to get you out, and it's trying to get
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: tractors and it's trying to repair the bridge, and you know,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: the things like that can have a pretty significant impact.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: You can always tell when tourists are given things to
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: kids from the from the roadside, because they're going to
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: just run out where I remember when you and I
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: were going through southern Uganda on our trip in twenty sixteen,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: those kids never run out to the road. They stood
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: on the side of the road and waved or made
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: gestures at us or you know whatever, you know, laughing
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: or running along, you know, but up and away they weren't.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Whereas if you are in a more of a touristy area,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: they will run right up to the side of the
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: vehicle because they've been taught by other travelers that came
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: before that. If you do that, you might get a treat.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: You might get a candy or a pencil or whatever exactly. So, Yeah,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: if you want to give things to children, find a
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: local school. Contact that school, or even if you're just
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: serendipitously into town, find out where the school is. Most
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: likely there's going to be someone that speaks English. Ask
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: the headmaster what can we do to support your little
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: community here? If you want to give a soccer ball,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: you can give it to the kids, again, away from
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: the road in the context that's appropriate. Soccer ball is
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: a great one. I think you just don't want to
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: be you don't want to be doing that right at
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: the roadside.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also don't want to be handing out size
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: eight cleats in a work Not every kid's gonna.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: Get up here, that's right, That's right. Yeah, something that's
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: a little more universal for sure. H I Scott here,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to take a minute to talk a
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: little bit about expedition portal dot com. Expedition Portal dot
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: com is our website and it's also our community forum.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: We are celebrating twenty years of expedition portal dot com
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: this year in twenty twenty five, and there are nearly
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: three hundred thousand members on the community forum that talk
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: about incredibly diverse topics all around the world, unique vehicles,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: things like land cruisers and land rovers, and what to
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: do at the border with Ethiopia and Africa, all the
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: way to some of the favorite campsites and adventure stories
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: from the community. We also have the homepage which is
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: filled with nearly six thousand articles that are all available
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: to you for free right there on expedition portal dot com.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: We have two to five articles per day that go
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: up on the website that written by our very experienced staff,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: which includes global travelers like Brahm Bell and Ashley Giordano.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: I have many articles on there and many contributors like
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: Dan Grek and others from around the world. So please
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: take a minute and check out expedition Portal dot com.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: It's a great way to support the podcast and to
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: connect with the community. The next one is and this
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: is one that you push back on and I love that,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: so we're going to talk about it in a little
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: bit more detail, but avoid paying bribes, And it's the
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: reason why I didn't choose the word don't pay bribes,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: because there are scenarios that exist where either it is
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: entirely culturally normalized to do that, or if you're at
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: great personal risk. It's like if there's like you're fearing
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: for your life. In most situations, proper planning, research and
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: patients will all but eliminate the likelihood of paying a
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: bribe to officials in law enforcement. There are exceptions, such
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: as when a bribe is paid unknowingly or a or
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: if personal safety is threatened. Paying bribes increases the likelihood
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: of pressure for similar kickbacks from locals and future travelers.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about what was some
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: of your perspective on that.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: I thought that was really helps a self free slope.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: I know we had an article on it a few
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: years back in the Journal, and I think it really
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: it comes down to the context. That's what it comes
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: down to. Yeah, if you're flat out I'm never going
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: to pay a bribe. But it's it's your Western perspective
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: of a bride vibe. Yeah, you might be at a
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: border crossing where somebody's expecting a ten dollar bill because
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: everyone has done that, yeah, everyone, not just the Western traveler,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: you know. So you know, it's hard to put your
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: finger on whether it's the norm or not. But there,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: like you said, there are a lot of cultures where,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: for example, the concept of of bakshish, yeah, which is
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: payment for an incidental service. You know, you can define
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: incidental however you want. I mean, people like to say
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: it's like for a waiter in a country where maybe
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: tipping isn't normally done but.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: Was great yeah.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: Or or you said, hey, you know, I want to
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: wash my motorcycle. I've been riding it across the Democratic
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: Republic of Congo for you know, three months, and I
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: want to wash it. And then they know, the hotel
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: staff for you know, where you're staying, they show up
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: at the hose and a bucket and they're helping you out.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: I mean like, yeah, you know, obviously it depends on
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: what if you're handing over money, and then there's another
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: outcome that follows from that. You know, that's where I
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: think you kind of get into the the gray area
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: of a bride. But I think you know your definition
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: is is you know the starting point for everyone's approach
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: and just just be aware that you might be in
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: a location where you know you need to make a payment,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: and that's just how it is.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: It happens. It happens, And.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: For people to be in some kind of moral denial
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: based on their own standards and norms from their country,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: that might not be the case, you know, when when
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: you're traveling another location. I'm not I'm not condoning flat
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: out bribing everybody, but there there there probably will be
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: instances where something you pay for something and then but
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: there's no receipt and you and and you know you
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: also you know, along the gray area part of it.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: For example, you might enter a national park where they
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: say it's twenty you know, the equivalent of twenty US
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: dollars and then there you go. But meanwhile they have
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: a commoner rate, you know for the locals that want
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: to come in, was is five bucks.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: You know, you just entered the park. You paid more
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: than you're supposed to. Maybe they let you move to
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: the front of the line because they want tours to
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: be happy and experience their national park and their wildlife. Sure,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: and actually, you know you could say that unknowingly you
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: might have bribed or not. Maybe the person who took
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: your twenty, you know, gives half of it to the
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: guy who's that pushes down on the gate yep or
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: something like that just to kind of expedite everybody.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: Or Yeah, I think where it's a problem is you
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: get pulled over, you're doing thirty kilometers an hour over
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: the speed limit and you just want to get out
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: of the inconvenience of halving. Yeah, that's different to handle
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: the ticket properly, Like that's an example of where you
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: really want to be careful about doing that. Like it's
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: going to cost you more than you think it does
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: because you're never going to forget the fact that you
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: didn't handle the situation properly, didn't take responsibility for speeding.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: You just paid off the police officer. Now, if you
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: weren't speeding and he's trying to shake you down, that's different.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Then you want to you want to be patient, you
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: want to be respectful, and you want to not you
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: want to not pay him off because it's just going
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: to make it that much harder for the person that
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: comes out.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: Or if you have to, you know, you need to
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: be doing it and in a way that is safe
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: for you and your travel companions and your party if
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: you're in to say, a convoy of other vehicles, sure,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: and their approaches to that. It's not something that people
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: like to address, but it is what it.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Is, yep.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: And and sometimes you need to pay attention to those details.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, for example, pulling out a whole
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: lot of Ben Franklin's or under your notes and going
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: how much did you say you want it?
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know exactly. It's not really a
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: little easier on yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: But a lot of times, you know, with a lot
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: of with many cultures, breaking the ice in a different way.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I I don't smoke cigarettes, but having cigarettes
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: and totally people you know, I mean I almost give
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: them selling everything. You know, it was a guy from
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: the other California where you know, like nobody's nobody that
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: I know smokes any cigarettes anymore.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: But at least there, I should say.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: But being able to to break the ice in a
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: different way that doesn't involve cash, you.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: Smile, laughter, thanking them for their country.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: Cold drinks in your in your fridge. You can go, hey,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: we got to the border a little bit late, you know,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: for today.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: What can we do?
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: You guys like Sprite. Yeah, you know, and you're not
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: trying to bribe anybody in that regard, you know, breaking
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: the ice, and then be like yeah, sure going through and.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: I mean bull is pretty like a luxury in a
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: lot of places. So yeah, if you get too spooled up,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: ah yeah, you gotta time. Got to time it, just
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: you gotta time it just right for sure. I think
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: the thing about the bribes is do everything you can
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: to not do that. Think about the consequences to your
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: future self looking back on that experience and having bribed someone,
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: and also think about how it could affect other travelers.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: But then I think we also need to be really
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: careful about like the virtue signaling of like I would
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: never pay a bribe or I've never paid a bribe,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: and there's just no way to know. There's no way
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: to know if you didn't facilitate something through a payment,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: there's just anyway. Yeah, there's just no way. There's no
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: way to know for sure. So I think you got
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: to be as travelers, we have to be really careful
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: about judging others. I just think that from my own experience.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: You just want to be careful, you know, plan ahead,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: make sure, you do the right thing so you don't
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: have to have to do that.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, on on that note, I know that
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: we've talked about this, but when we were detained at
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: the Tribution border, there was no bribing. I mean it
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: was It came down to a bureaucracy that wasn't set
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: up to.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Have a a an.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Ineos grenadier crossing its border into its country.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: And they didn't even seen that vehicle before.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe if it was a land cruiser, they we would
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: have been on it in fifteen minutes. And it was
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: also during Ramadan, so there and there was a war
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: that just erupted in the region, and right, so there
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: were all these other things, but it didn't matter. If
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: we would have said, hey, about five hundred bucks and
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: so we can get that paperwork sign quickly, they were like,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: oh no, you know.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: It wasn't even suggested.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: It wasn't even suggested on their part.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: They could have. It was in the middle of nowhere.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: There were no as far as I could see, there
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: were no cameras around that would catch it happening or
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: catch the the you know, one stripe private taking it.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: When this didn't tell the sergeant or something that there was.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: It wasn't even it didn't even come up on the radar.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: It literally it literally just came down to who we
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: knew and how quickly we could get those people that
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: we knew to talk to the right person like. It
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: ended up just being relationships that that resolved it. Yeah,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: you couldn't. We couldn't have paid our way out of
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: that situation for sure. All right, so we got two
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: more here. The next one is help other travelers. Help
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: your fellow travelers and locals along the journey, including getting
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: a vehicle unstuck or fixing a flat tire. Ask walkers, bikers,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: and motorcyclists if they need water or other support. Like
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: people that are traveling in that way, they just don't.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: They can't carry as much equipment and supplies as we can.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: And fool drives. And then you want to give back
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: on the community forums and apps. Think about all those
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: Facebook groups Expedition Portal where people are sharing information about trips,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: you know, an update update as much as you can
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: on your travels. I found that to be incredibly helpful
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: for me crossing Africa, being able to see the posts
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: and the updates from travelers that were just ahead of
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: me I found it so reassuring, and I think that's
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: a great way to give back to other travelers is
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: to is to and that's been going on for hundreds
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: of thousands of years, people like, Hey, how's the road,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: you know, or how's the plan, how's the path? Are
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: there any fish? Exactly exactly? So I think that's that's
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: a good one. And then the last one we've got
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: here is give back when possible, you know, I in
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: my travels, it's completely changed my life. It's completely changed
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: me as a person the world has The interactions that
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: I've had with these incredible people all around the world
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: has completely changed me as a person, and us as
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: travelers learning how to give back and the ways that
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: we can or the ways that we can be most effective.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: You know, it says as travelers we gain so much
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: from our experiences that finding way to give back during
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: our journey is deeply rewarding. There are ways to volunteer
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: or use your professional skills in every country we visit,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: so take time to honor the local communities and conservation
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: organizations that make that experience possible when feasible, spend money
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: with locally owned businesses and guides. So what are some ways, Brian,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: that you have found that you've been able to give
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: back to these communities that you interact with.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: Well, in my case, especially in the guise of the
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: professional archaeology role, I'm frequently in a location longer than
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: like a typical tourist. Sure, so helping out with cleaning
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: something something in the village, you know.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: I remember, like.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: Week one year one in the field in Croatia on
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: this island, they asked me if I would sort of
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: like co teach the what they're their equivalent twelfth grade
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: class English. Wow, okay, that's you know, I mean, it's
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: not my specialty or you know, I know there are
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: people that study and get even certificates and that stuff.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: So was more than happy to do that, and then
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: just silly things that that helped out the locals. I
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: remember one time I had flown back home visit my family,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: and I brought back I don't know, must have been
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: like one hundred bandanas. Everyone kept talking, you know, asking
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: me about my shirt and off the son off of
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: my neck and this and that, and so I brought
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: that back and and just helping out, you know, for me,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: I would help out in the museum even stuff that
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: didn't pertain to me, our gallery kind of things and
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: stuff like this. But yeah, even if it's just let's
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: say some basic medical kind of.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: We did we did with Ethiopia bringing in we were
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: smuggling medical supplies and Ethiopia. Yeah.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but goes for an extremely good good cause for sure,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: a medical facility that that helps out everyone who from
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: people who cannot pay a penny or whatever their local
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: the smallest denomination all the way up to people that
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: can pay. So yeah, I think there's there's a lot
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: that can be done. My my mom actually volunteered on
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: a on a project through the ri I co Op
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: to help clean some of the stones down in Machu
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Picchu different locations. Yeah, and so that was really cool,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: and you know she she's into travel. But but also
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: you know, they assigned her her little spot and it
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: wasn't like she could wander.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: Off like during the day.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she had to stay in that location and they
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: gave her some rocks and some special little tools in
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: a little bamboo pieces and stuff so she wouldn't scrape
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: it up too much. I think that they overlook the
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: fact that she's a professional dental hygienis so she did
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: do a very good job of finding out. But you know,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: stuff like that, I think is you know, always good.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: And asking what what those communities need. I learned that
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: lesson with a little school in Moulahay basically in like
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: a school for for kids without any family. And at
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: first I was like, I'm gonna bring them pencils, I'm
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: gonna bring them this, and I'm gonna bring and I'm like,
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: you know, I should probably just call them and find it.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: And I asked them what they needed. I'm like, do
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: you guys need pencils? And they're like, no, we got
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: tons of that, we get that all the time. They're like,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: we need breakfast for the kids. I was like, oh wow,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: that was a lesson. Like what I thought they needed
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: was the furthest thing that they needed. They had plenty
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: of two people, they had plenty, plenty of pencils and
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: paper and again crayons and everything else like that. What
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: they really needed was a way to feed the kids
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: every morning. And I was like, wow, that was a
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: really so just load you load up on a bunch
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: of cereal and pancake mixes.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, some cultures even stress like community, community work,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: community helping out, you know, everyone chipping in. You know,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: I worked on an atol in the South Pacific where
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: when they had to go and repair something, let's say,
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: some someone of the huts, you know, the coral kind
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: of gave way, and the only person there was the
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: older grandma and grandpa. Yeah, every all able bodied males,
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: as long as you were not doing anything else, you
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: were supposed to show up and help out.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: And help help repair and raise the barn. Yeah.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that's that's I think that's that's always cool.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Plus again, you get off, you get sidetracked, Yeah, and
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: you end up experiencing something that you probably would never
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: it was not written up in the tourist guide. Yeah,
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: and then you just have this experience that just you know.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: You'll never forget. Yeah, yeah, you'll never forget it. Oh,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: this was a really fun conversation. Somehow we managed to
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: go over an hour and a half on that, even
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: with interruptions and everything. That's pretty impressive. But you know,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: it's always a joy to have you on the podcast, Brian.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: You know, I so cherish our travels together. I've learned
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: so much from you through the years, and in all
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: the ways that we just talked about. You've added such
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: so many amazing experiences and memories to my life, so
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: thanks for sharing some of that on the podcast today.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me again. And you know, I think
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: that you know, the points that we talked about are relevant.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: There's always you know, there's always a different aspect to everything, yep.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: But I think overall people will do good in this
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: world if they have open mind and work with other cultures.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: I agree, And and things happen, And maybe you or
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: your kids have an interest in archaeology. There's lots of
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: resources for you to to do that. There's clearly there's
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: a profession that can still be had within the space,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: and you know, it's something that they can't replace with
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: AI is digging up cool stuff.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: Right right, So and even if I had to do
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: it again, my friends who are exploration geologists, they're the
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: cool one.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: But we'll talk about that. We'll make that for another episode. Well,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: thanks for being on the podcast, Brian, and we thank
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: you all for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.