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The Brave Becoming · The Brave Becoming

• Shaniqua: Hi everyone. Welcome to The Brave Becoming. I hope that you all are well. I hope that you guys got a chance to listen to our first inaugural episode. but welcome to episode two of The Brave Becoming. Today's message and today's title of today's episode is What does it mean to be in between and still brave enough to become? So we're going to discuss what the title of our whole podcast is. I am Shanika Risher and I'm here with T, Tiana. Tiana: Aye. Shaniqua: And this is a space where we wrestle hard questions out loud. We talk about what it means to be both holy and human and choose grace over perfection while we are still becoming. Tiana: We're not here to perform. We're not handing out neat church answers. We're telling the truth about walking with God while still being. very human. So last week you know that we talked about being holy and human and we gave you some insight on what we thought being holy actually means and what we thought being human actually feels like. So just like last week we're going to open up with our signature question. So first Shanique, I'm going to ask you, when did you know that God was real for yourself? Shaniqua: When did I know God was real for myself? So last week I talked about my experience with my calling experience. I think the next time that I really realized God was real for myself, you know, this is a something that's just coming to me right now. So it's funny because I think this is when I knew God was rough for myself, but then also when I realized the mother's bond. When I was in college, I was had a really, really, really, really, really rough experience. I was going through a rough time and I remember like crying. while I one night, it was definitely after midnight. I was crying in my bed. I was At my apartment by myself, and I was just crying out to God and and God, I need you, please help me. and my mother called Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: and she called out the blue, and I was like, Hello? And she was just like, Hey, Chaniqua, baby, you okay? And I was like, What do you mean? She was like, I just got felt something, you know, in my spirit that you weren't okay. Are you okay? And I was like, Yes, mama good. And I'm trying to soak it up because you know I couldn't go into everything. My mom and she said, Okay, you sure? Cause I just felt something was wrong with you. And so, and I was like, Yeah, Mom, I'm okay. And I and I and I ended up being fine. But I I I think as I reflect upon that, I remember I know that God is real for myself because of how He has cared for me through Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: my parents, through family, through friends. That you know, there's so many times in my life that I've had hard moments and I've been like, Jesus, I need you to come sit right here on this bed right now. I need you to show up. and although I haven't had Jesus come sit on the bed in the physical manifestation, if I'm being true, He has. He Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: has shown up, He has revealed Himself. you know, God can speak through His Word, He can speak through circumstances, He can speak through people, and so That's one of my earliest remembrances that really literally just came to me on the spot. I I remember the story, but I've never pieced it together with me Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: knowing that God was real for myself because in the midst of me asking, God, I need you right now, I need your presence, he sent my mom. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: And so yeah, I know God to be real for that. Tiana: God is so amazing and He blesses us with the greatest parents, right? and it's so amazing, and I'm so thankful when our parents actually take on the task of raising us because Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: truthfully, children are a blessing from God. Like our children are his first, and we were his first before he gave us our parents. So that's so awesome. I love to hear that. That's true. That is true. Shaniqua: Yeah, it is. But not everybody has a great parent. So we are blessed to have great parents. We are blessed to have great parents. We have friends. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: So but I ask you the question now. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: So when did you know God was real for yourself? Tiana: I was saying in his pursuit of me when Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: I didn't even know that I needed him. Shaniqua: Mm. Mm. And how did that look? Tiana: So we're gonna go into it right here in this show in the in-between. Shaniqua: Ay. Tiana: But it it looks like God just being patient while you figure it out, while you figure out who he is and figure out that he is the one that you are chasing, not things. Shaniqua: Okay. Okay. Okay. I love that. I love what I guess that's a good segue into today's topic. Tiana: Yes, it is. Shaniqua: Okay. So again today we're saying what does it mean to be in between and still brave enough to become like what does that mean? That's a whole lot. when we look at the in between I definitely think that, you know, there is a a point for when you give your life to Christ, when you when you say, I God, I surrender. I I I I believe that you that you died on the cross for my sin through Jesus Christ and He was resurrected. You know, there's there's that moment, and then there's a whole lot after that moment. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: and and and and that's kind of the dash in between our lives. You know, we were born in this particular year and then we we would end in this particular year and the dash is the in-between. But I also think we can look at that in-between, you know, from our spiritual journey. and when I was in Bible college at at DVU in my master's program, I remember taking a course in spiritual formation that really talks about how the spirit, how we are developed, as as as spiritual beings, you know, we are we we we are spiritual beings having a human experience in a human body but that doesn't divorce us from the from our spiritual selves. And so what does that look like? And and that terminology was used was was spiritual formation. And so Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: I think that that is what the the the in between is and then in and a lot of times in the in between there's a lot of you know confusion, discouragement. spiritual fatigue, hope, you go through so many different emotions during the journey of spiritual formation. And I think you're continually to always form, but there's definitely a part of the process that's harder than not. So for me, I think that that's a part of becoming that is a part of of being brave through the becoming, recognizing that you're not where you started. but being brave enough to continue on. Because to be honest, you know, walking with Christ is is not all it's not all roses and sunlight and rainbows. It's it's definitely not there. There are some there's some dark paths that can go with it. And so that's that's what that means for me being in between. What about you? Tiana: same, I feel like the in-between is so uncertain and Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: it's in that uncertainty that pressures are built. And Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: sometimes pressure can either make us continue to follow God or we can go other ways. Shaniqua: Mm, mm-hmm. Indeed, indeed. You know, I think one of the things that we we gloss over the cross so much. 'Cause we we think that again, that everything's supposed to be smooth and everything is supposed to be great when we give our life to Christ, but Christ didn't have it easy. Like he he didn't have it easy. It wasn't smooth for him. his his his transformation from human to to one hundred percent fully on the other side of resurrection, you know, that that that that was that that was a some dark process, a dark process there. You know, when when he was on the cross, why have you forsaken me? But he was brave enough, holy enough, human enough, divine enough to continue with the process. And if we would recognize that with our own journeys, it won't necessarily be easier, but the management of the journey, I think, will will you you'll recognize that it's it's worthwhile. Tiana: Mm-hmm. And I think that's why Paul reminded us of that so much in the New Testament in his letters. Like, hey, stay steadfast. Listen, it's gonna be okay. Take heart. Yes. Pray what thou sees and listen. You're gonna get Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Tiana: through it. Just as a reminder that, you know, Jesus, he was human, but he was also holy. He had to go through the same things. And like last week I said at being human, we always feel forgotten. So Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: I think that's Just a true testament and a reminder for us that, hey, Jesus, he went through the same things. He went through sufferings as well, but God never left him. Shaniqua: Yes, yes, yes. God never left him. But it's so funny because that that that opens the doorway to my own personal testimony of when I wanted to leave God. Or maybe not necessarily when I wanted to leave God, but I wanted to leave the church. You know, Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: we live in such an interesting times. And I told everyone last week that, you know, I'm a minister in the church. I serve in the church, but I am extremely highly critical of the church as well. And the church meaning the little sea as well as the big sea, the big the body of Christ. as well as individual church institutions. And so I remember going through a very, very hard time in my spiritual formation, my spiritual journey. where, and I think I mentioned it last week, and you know, it's this this concept called the dark night of the soul, where I literally felt so disconnected from God. And I wanted to leave the church. I wanted to leave him. I felt like he was silent. I felt like he wasn't present. He wasn't a part Of my journey. And you know, I've truly only been, I didn't really grow up. My my I remember going to the church when I was a baby, but I didn't really grow up in the church when I was, you know, a kid, a child, I guess you could say, but I didn't grow up in the church. And so my first church, my first real church was after college, after graduating college, which is where I was baptized. I was baptized, I think I was 20 when I was when I was baptized. And so You know, I went there. I was I was active in church. I knew people. I did all of the singles ministry things. I w went to church conferences and women's conferences and did all of those stuff. By the way, I really am not a fan of church conferences and women's conferences now. I only go there if someone asked me to speak. But Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: I grew very disillusioned and disinterested in Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: doing church and in being in church. And I was I I felt like I was spiritually dead. And this was after I had graduated from Bible college. but it was also before I had formally accepted my calling to ministry. I just felt so dead. Like I don't want to do this. This is nothing is happening in me spiritually. I'm not growing. It just felt like such a dead space. And I remember wanting to stop going to church, but I knew it was something in my spirit that was like, you can't stop. Cause I knew if I stopped going to church, I was gonna walk away for good. I knew that if I stopped going to church, I was gonna be totally separated from God. So there would be moments I would go to church and I would go, but I would be mentally checked out. Like, why am I here? Or I would go and I would leave early. there were plenty of Sundays that I went to church and I would drive there and I would just turn the car around, be like, Okay, I'm gonna Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: do it today. I remember, I remember a story. I went to the Potter's house. I was well, I was trying to go to the Potter's house. And so the Potter's house is probably like maybe 15 minutes from my home. So I got up, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I was like, well, let me go to a different church. Maybe this is what I need. And so I got up, went to the Potter's house, and I exited the freeway and I saw that long line of cars. And I was like, I ain't gonna be able to do this. This ain't this ain't even worth it. And I smooth kept on going on the exit. 'Cause I I was just nothing about the church interested me. Nothing about the church spoke to me, but at the same time, God wouldn't let me separate from the church. Tiana: Mm. Mm. Shaniqua: God would not let me separate from the church. And so that was such a battle that was going on with me. It was a tug of war of wanting God, but not wanting the church. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: It was, it was, it was just, it just felt like I was dead. Nothing was speaking to me, but God was like, I'm not letting you go. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: You know, going back to what you had said earlier, you know, when he was pursuing you. It it just felt like God was like, But I'm not letting you go. You wanna let me Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: go. You wanna let this institution go. You wanna let this calling go. You don't even wanna acknowledge this calling, but I'm not letting you go. And Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: it wasn't until and this is a part of my becoming story, so just bear with me, but it wasn't until I remember my current pastor. he was serving at my former church and he got up to preach. that particular Sunday because my my my my my former pastor was excuse me my current pastor was serving at my former church and my former pastor was on vacation or something and he wasn't preaching that Sunday and he's a phenomenal pastor like love him to death pastor Freddie Haynes Friendship West Baptist Church love him to death phenomenal preacher but he wasn't there that that day and my current pastor Marcus King He was serving and so he pre-preached at Friendship West because he used to work at Friendship West. He was preaching. And I would never forget when that's that sermon was over and whatever he did. I felt the Holy Spirit be like, when he opens this new church, you need to go with him. I had Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: no clue what was talking about, what was going on, but I I knew, okay, when he opens this new church, you need to go with him. And I remember I think I sent him a text message or a message saying something to that effect. And he was like, huh, okay. But little did I know a few weeks later, he would be announcing that he was actually leaving and going and opening up a new church. Tiana: Well Shaniqua: And talk about knowing God was real. Like I it was, it, it, it shocked me so much that I knew something in advance of something I something was revealed to me in in advance of anyone knowing about it. But that Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: God had was already directing me that this is where you're supposed to be. And I've been there 18 years now. I think it's been 18 years. And so that was just such a turning point in my journey because I got re-engaged with the church. I finally accepted my call to ministry and preaching at D D's my current church with Pastor King. I would go talk to him and I wouldn't admit it for so long. But then I did. And things such as this have happened. And so that's my story of becoming. you know, that Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: in between spot that I was in, but it just opened up so much for me. And yeah, that that that's that's my story. That was my story of becoming. Anything you wanna go ahead. Uh-huh. Tiana: I have a yeah, I have a question. you s you said you went to the potter's house thinking that if I just go to another church, this feeling will come back. What would you Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Tiana: say to the person who's trying to keep their faith, but maybe considering switching churches thinking that that'll help the feeling come back? Shaniqua: Number one, I think the feeling is always gonna be within you. like even at my current church, I have friends who who've loved my current church and who've gone to different churches and who are active and growing in their current church homes just like they were active and growing in our church home. I think that you have to caution yourself about jumping around. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: number one, because not all not all people who are call themselves pastors are in are shepherds. Let me be clear on that. Tiana: Mm. Mm. Shaniqua: my pastor is is uniquely shepherding me because I am a very unique person to pastor and to shepherd. And so I'm so thankful for him for that. so you have to be careful about going different places. but you also have to have the conversation with yourself and God and get to the source of what what is this? Is it my discontent with where I am serving and you're calling me somewhere difference, or is it my discontent with you, God? And regardless Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: of where I go, I'm chasing something, but I'm not gonna find it until I sit with what it is that and confront what it is with you that I'm looking for. And I think you just have to be very real with that because you definitely wanna go to a church where you are spiritually challenged, where you can serve. where the teaching is sound, not just the preaching, because you know a lot of people go with the hooping and hollering. Like I've told my pastor before, I love it when you preach, but that that doesn't really do anything for me. It's when you teach that does most for me because I'm an intellectual Tiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: believer, an intellectual learner. I I I don't I don't get moved by the hooping and hollering. I get moved by someone breaking down the text. And so you have to know also where you're going. But what you're looking for. And if you're trying to seek something in all of these places and I'm not seeking it with God and within yourself, you're gonna continue to church hop. And I've seen that too. Tiana: Mm. I'm so happy you said that. The discontent with God, not with people. Because that's the Shaniqua: There's a Tiana: main thing that we will say, Well, they I don't like the way they're doing this or they said this wrong to me or they and sometimes that is the case. Sometimes Shaniqua: Yes. Tiana: it is people. But I think if we look inward first and sit with Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: God first, then we can figure out if we're moving just to move or if we're moving to be planted. So Shaniqua: Yeah. And I've had a lot of discontent with God in that situation, my dark night walking all of that out, my spiritual formation. And even after that, I've had moments of discontent with God because I felt like, you know, he hasn't heard me, he hasn't seen me. but the God who was, you know, he's El Rohi, he the God who sees, like how could he not see me? But I didn't feel seen. And so addressing that discontent is a part of the in-between, is a part of the spiritual formation, the becoming, being able to ask those hard questions to have those hard conversations with God. And He doesn't always answer, or He doesn't always answer in the way that I expect. Hence my story earlier, you know, God, I need you to be here and my mama called me. Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: But but recognizing that the answer. of silence is still an answer or recognizing all of that is a part of the formation journey. It is the b in-between. It is how you are bravely becoming that. Tiana: Ooh, we don't like when it's silent. We don't like when God is silent, especially in the in between. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Girl. What's that? Who does? God, why you not talking to me? What you what you mean? God like I told I told you last time, so I'm trying to wave because what I'm not finna do is keep repeating myself. That's the Lord on high. He like, I'm not finna repeat myself to you. Tiana: told go back to the last thing I told you to do. Yes. Yes. Shaniqua: Go back the last thing. Go back to the last thing. Tiana: That is so amazing. That is so amazing. So my my formation journey looks a little different. You know, we Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: we both didn't grow up in the church, but at 18 I told y'all I I I got saved and then I went to the city trans to get that Bible. That King Shaniqua: Girl, you in the city transvival. It kills me. Tiana: That King James Bible that I did not understand. And so when I tried to read that Bible, because I did not understand it, I ran from it. Because this is, I'm a person who's had straight A's, I'm a good student, I love to learn, but I could not understand it. So I didn't have any discipleship, of course. And so I just went back, you know, to the world. I just went back to doing what I was doing. And then 10 years, 10 years later, I figured out that I could hear from God. Shaniqua: Ooh. So how did how Tiana: That's that pursuit. He never Shaniqua: how did you figure it out? Like what was that? Tiana: Well, it was during COVID. So Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: during COVID, you know, we're all stuck in a house. We all have to look at ourselves, look at our family, look at our spouses, you know, there's no getting away from it. There's no outworking anything. And in that silence, I started to hear him. And I was like, What? Is this real? And so I would, you know, put little things on Facebook and people be like, my God, you're talking to me. And I was like, What? Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: Where'd that come from? So within that, I'm like, okay. I know that this is God. I don't know much about him, but I'm going to pursue him. Now, I just had one of those little pocket Bibles, right? But during that time, New Age Christianity was everywhere. It was Shaniqua: It still is Tiana: it's silious, but it it was like blowing up on social media. And so, you know, and and let me let me say this: none of what I'm saying is to shame anyone, it's not to mock anyone. I'm just telling my journey. And sometimes I tell it with a little bit of humor because I just like to laugh. But I just want to put that disclaimer. So yeah, so I'm thinking, okay, well this is this is God. You know, this this is who I'm supposed to be chasing. So I I had a little closet area. I built me like a little altar and Shaniqua: There Tiana: you know I was gonna put up all these pictures and do all these things. I had the sage. I had the crystals. I had this little routine that I would do. And then I would meditate. Now, meditating is not demonic, you know. God tells us to meditate on the word, but I was not meditating on the word. All right. So I would burn my sage and then I'll do little things with the crystals. And then I'll read a little passage from out of this little bitty Bible. And then I would meditate. But what I did not know is that I have different spiritual gifts where I can see things and hear things and I had some spiritual encounters during that meditation that scared me. Shaniqua: Girl. What doors were you opening? What spirits were you opening that was not of the Lord? Tiana: It it it was it was some spirits. It was it was definitely some spirits. at one point I was touched like on the back of my neck and I'm like, who's in here with me? I'm like, did my kids open the closet door? No, I'm in here by myself. And then another instant my eyes were closed. My eyes were closed, but out of my peripheral, I can see a demonic face. Scared me. I did not go back in that closet and meditate. Now during this time also, at this time I'm married and my husband at the time is going through his own spiritual formation, but he's also dabbling in different things that Jesus is not really present in. I'll just say that. So we're both going through this spiritual formation at the same time. Well then eventually we end up moving. So we moved into a new house and I kept saying, I gotta figure out where to put my altar space back up at. I gotta figure out where to put it. I was gonna go back to it. I couldn't figure it out. So then I said, you know what? I'm gonna just go and get a big Bible and I'm gonna just read it. So I went to Walmart and got a Christian standard Bible, one that I can understand. And I started in Genesis, and I just would read. And anybody who's listening to this who know, like years ago, if you were on my Instagram and Snapchat, I would just get on there early in the morning, like, yeah, I read this and I see this and I see that. And that's when I finally realized Jesus is right here in this word. Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: He wasn't in the sage. He wasn't in the crystals. He wasn't in the meditating without his word. He was right here within this word. Everything that I've been searching for, all I had to do was open up my Bible. Shaniqua: I love that revelation. I love Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: that revelation of you becoming. Tiana: Yes. Shaniqua: Of you becoming. And it's also, it's very brave of you, and I use that word intentionally right now, to to recognize that you were you were you were seeking God, but at some point you deviated from the word, that you devi that that there was a deviation to into something. that was not serving your spirit and that was not of God and that you were you were aware enough to be able to call it out to still call it out even now and to be like this is not of God this is not serving me I need to not go down this path Tiana: And you know what the deviation was? Shaniqua: what Tiana: I was looking for peace. I was having anxiety attacks, panic attacks, and I was searching for peace within all these different things. When the peace for me was just opening up my Bible and just reading my word. And then that's when God started to put that peace that I was searching for within me. Shaniqua: The absence of peace with following things which were not of him revealed to you the peace that you needed to seek, which was in his word and of him. I love that. I love Tiana: Okay. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: that. I love that. I love that. Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: So what would you what would you say for someone else right now who is on that path and does you know, they they believe in a little bit of Jesus, but a little bit of crystals and a little bit of the ancestors and a little bit of this. What would you say to them? Tiana: first I would ask him a question. What Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: makes you trust God less? Like what makes you put your trust in these things over him? Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: And even if, you know, what what do you have to lose if you just trust him? You're trusted in the sage, you're trusted in the crystals. What would you have to lose if you took a month and just trusted in God and just read his word for 30 days and only his word? What would happen? Shaniqua: Mm. Tiana: Because I feel like I needed to go through that. And that's why I don't want to demonize anyone who's doing that. I feel like I needed to go through that because, you know, Romans 8, 8 28. God can use all things. And that's one of the things. Shaniqua: Things work for good. Tiana: Yes. And that is one of the things that he used on my journey. I had to feel what life was like without him first. I had to, because I'm a little hard headed. I'm gonna be honest. So I had to go through life putting my trust in things to realize that I only need to trust him. Those things can't give me what he can give me. And so I would just urge them to just try to trust them for thirty days. Give God thirty days with your full trust and see what happens. Shaniqua: Mm, mm, mm. I love that. I love, love, love, love, love that. And so now that your walk has changed, what about your discernment and understanding of God has been revealed to you through this? How you becoming even more of who you are and who has Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: called you to be. Tiana: You know, I think becoming really becoming really makes us see ourselves and see where we take roots in. And so Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: one of the things that was revealed was that Sometimes I can have an issue with creating an idol out of things. When Shaniqua: Talk to me. Tiana: yes, when God is supposed to be the only idol that I have. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Tiana: I think I think when we are becoming and we're searching for something, for me, I can put my full trust, everything, and in the thing that I have found, thinking that, this is gonna help me or heal me or give me peace or make me feel good instead of running to God first. So now and and now that I know this about myself and on my becoming journey, I have to make sure that I put God first. He has to be at the head of my life, my decisions, anything I do, how I walk, how I speak, because I know how sometimes I can drift. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like that. I like that. I think piggybacking off of what you just said, something for me, a part of my becoming journey. So, you know, I've I've well, you may not know because y'all don't know if we if you listen to the first episode, T and I really we did this is our first time like really truly meeting. So everything that's revealed to to you all is revealed to each other for the first time with us doing this podcast. So we did not know each other beforehand. So, you know, I I'm I'm an I'm an an author. And so one of my my first book was Living a Fake Life for a Real God. And it was a collection of devotionals that I would write. but that title was very specific, is that I believe in being your authentic self and being authentic, but it is so hard to be your authentic self and to have your authentic identity in who God has uniquely designed and made you to be in this world of copycats, in this world of you have to look like someone, adapt someone else's persona, methodology, model, whatever it is, in order for you to gain success. And so it's very hard for people just to be their true and individual selves. And a part of my becoming journey was recognizing that. So, you know, I I do have a title. I I have been licensed at my church, but I remember there was a time where even at my current church where I was just over it because it took us, I think I had done the work. It took us, I think, eight years. For my time of when I accepted my calling to I actually was officially licensed as the minister. And I was very frustrated with that entire process. I wanted that process to look different. I didn't agree with the process of it. I remember at one point in time I was like, I'm gonna drop out of this program. I this this isn't this isn't for me. My best friend who's a PhD, she was just like, girl, just go get your PhD. Like, that's gonna trump anything. and I thought about going that route to go back to school, but I was like, I don't want to go back to school. I thought of all of those things, but then I had to go back and be like, okay, God, this is a process of my journey. What is it that you want me to learn? Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: And I think that that made me become even more of my authentic self. of why I I I don't really identify with with with titles like that. titles are used in the church to show authority, to show significance. Title used outside of the church to be able to show authority, to show significance, to show the work that you've put in, the work that you've earned. be it if you have a PhD or or are an REV, like whatever that is, But I had to understand the difference between calling and credentials. and that understanding that nuance of that helped me separate the pedestal of credentials. yes, I'm still gonna be whatever it is. the the the initials whatever because I do believe in the standards of excellence and my sis systemic systematic theology professor used to say the Holy Spirit has a strange affinity for the trained mind. And I wholeheartedly believe that the more you study, the more you study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth, the more you do those things, the more, the more revelation that you will get. I totally wholeheartedly believe in that. But there's a difference between believing in that and being trained for understanding versus being trained for a pedestal. Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: And so a part of my becoming, and bravely being who I am is that I still operate within the church. I still am submitted to the leadership and authority of the church. I still believe that as believers, we should be in fellowship with the church. I still believe in the big C, you know, the church, but that's why I I'm comfortable with saying I can also be critical of the church because I am a part of that family. I am a part of that. But a part of my becoming was recognizing recognizing the multifaceted person that I am. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: And that God has called me to be and to and to settle into that versus me trying to model and be what someone else thinks I should be as a woman of God, as a Christian, what I who I model is Christ. Tiana: Mm mm. You said something important too. I think in our in between journey the voices that we listen to matter. Like your friend meant well. She meant well telling you to go and get a PhD. But that Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: would have delayed your journey. Shaniqua: It would have delayed my journey. And I still think about getting a PhD. Don't get me wrong, Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: but it would have delayed it would have delayed my understanding. It would have delayed me understanding and a part of my becoming, like you're saying, my journey. Because I would have chased a title just to be able to show that I have authority in this space. And my authority is not tied to a title. My authority is tied to the calling. And I will say that that is something that my pastor says all the time. like, like, like it's your calling. If God has called you, that is your calling. No one can separate that from you. And Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: and we, we, we, we, we conflate a lot of different things, I think, you know, in the church and and and patriarchy and all of these things. But at the end of the day, I seek to do what God is called. And so I can't. Chase a title or these credentials or something that I feel is going to make man accept me. Because Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I I can no longer care. And I do no longer care if man accepts me. What Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I care is that am I walking out the calling on my life that God has placed in my spirit to do the work in the ministry of Jesus Christ? Like that's that's what my focus is. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: But that's where my becoming has been. Cause it was a journey to get there. It was a journey from the woman who was like, I ain't finna do all this, go, you know, go to this church and why am I sitting here? And God, I wanna leave you, I wanna leave the church to the woman who's like, hella hot water. I'm I'm with you, God. I'm going to church. If I'm not out the country, if I'm not out the city or whatever, I'm showing up at church. If my legs can walk, I'm showing up at church. Even when I don't feel it, there's still moments right now I don't feel it. And I'm like, okay. But that means that means I'm going deeper with God. And Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: so that's that's that's where I am right now in the journey. And I love I love your journey though. I love that it's been it's so unique and totally different than mine. Even though we both didn't Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: grow up in the church, we took we took two different paths to get to where we are right now. We Tiana: Yeah, yeah. Shaniqua: took two different paths. Tiana: Yeah. I have a I got a question. Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: I'ma ask the question and I'ma then I'ma follow up with with why I asked the question. So in your in-between, did God give you any like warnings or nudges? And I asked that because while I was in the in-between with the new age, I remember being at Barnes and Noble's and I was looking for the Christian section, but I couldn't find it. I found the new age section first. And so I'm looking at tarot cards and I'm like I don't know if I should buy this. I'm just standing there looking and a man and a woman walks past. They're not talking to me. You know you go in Barnes and Noble's kind of quiet, like a library. They're not talking to me, they're talking to each other. But I hear the man say, Don't you go that route. And I'm like, what? Shaniqua: Back for me? Tiana: So you know, look up and I'm like, He ain't he not talking to me. But as I look up and turn and look toward the back, I see the Christian sign for the Christian books. And then I go back there and look. And I really feel like that was like a God moment, like, hey, hold on, hold on. I'm trying to pull you away from that. Don't go that route. So did God ever give you like a warning or nudge while you were in the in the in between? Shaniqua: No, I can't think of anything not to say that he hasn't, I just can't think of anything Other than what I've already shared. Like literally, I was in church and pastor my current pastor, Pastor King, he he was he was preaching, you know, and I heard the Holy Spirit when he opened his church, go. Okay, what does this mean? Tiana: Ha ha ha. Shaniqua: I don't know what he's talking about. But but the moment he the moment Pastor King went to our new church and preached his first sermon was literally the moment that I I I left Friendship West. And I never Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: went back. Let me when I say I've been back for a couple of revivals. I've been back for you know, a couple of people's funerals there. But when I say I left, I left. Like I Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: cleave, bam, I'm gone. I did I did a cut, very clean cut, and went full blown into it. And so that definitely was a nudge, neon nudge in my spirit from God. I think that there probably have been other things within my within my journey. You know, I've done, well, you may not know that I've done this. I've done several mission trips. I've led mission trips across the world. He's definitely has spoken to me through those mission trips to continue doing something to to go. so de God has definitely led me through all of those decisions. My first mission trip was to Kenya and it by happenstance one of my big sister mentors. We were at a funeral of a close friend. I had not seen her in a long time. excuse me, we were at the the funeral of the funeral of a father of one of our close friends. and she said that she was going to Kenya with her church and I was like, I want to go. I've always wanted to go. Can I go with y'all? You know, it was just just a fluke moment experience, but that totally changed the direction of my life. That mission trip totally changed the direction of my life. even my walk with God. And so I think that if I look at that as being a nudge, that as being a direction, he's I've always had nuggets. I've Tiana: Mm. Shaniqua: always had nuggets. Cause it's so it's so funny because that mission trip, we had to do devotionals. And I was terrified. I had never done a devotional before. I was terrified. And I'm on the mission trip with the senior pastor of a very large church. his wife, one of the associate pastors, a deacon, a nonprofit director of a large spiritual, worldwide spiritual nonprofit, spiritual faith-based organization, NGO. I'm on a mission trip with a team of these people. Like these are like some names. And you want me to do a devotional in front of these people? Excuse me? I had never done that. And I was so nervous, fumbling and all that. And they were like, You did good, Shanikra, you did good. And that was my first time doing that. But look at me now. I speak on God's behalf all the time. I do weekly devotionals. During this podcast, I get up, I talk for God. I I live, breathe for God. And so That definitely was a catalyst moment, I think, in my life. So I don't know if that answers the question of have I ever had the nudges. I think I've had a lot of breadcrumbs. I've had a lot Tiana: Yes. Shaniqua: of breadcrumbs. Tiana: Yes. Yes. And it's amazing how in the in-between guy can still throw you in a little bit like you jump in double dutch. Like, yeah, try this out. And you like, I don't want to try that out. But he's like, Jump in, jump in. Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Why? Why I gotta do this? Why why I gotta do this? God, I don't wanna do this. It but you know what? That's that's that actually is just like God. God gonna throw you into do something and you don't realize that He's building something into your future. Like Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: just the most minuscule thing, the most obscure thing. Can be the foundation of your future and your future self. And you just don't realize it. And I think that that's that's the beauty of the in-between. That's the beauty of the in-between, that it is a space of learning and cultivation. So if Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: anything you all get from this conversation of the in between in-between and being brave enough to become, is that the in between is the space of cultivation and learning. You are being cultivated. You know, like when you think of seeds in the grounds, you know, they're planted, they're buried deep, they're watered, the sun, but there's so much that's going on underground that you're not aware of. There are roots and systems that are forming and get being built. And then you see a little shoot of a plant come up, and then you see something bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And so understand that analogy in the sense of what our spiritual formation journey is. Like we you you might be a seed. That Jesus, I believe that you were born, de died and risen, that's the seed. But God's like, okay, now that you the seed, let me bury you. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: There's some cultivation that needs to go on. There's some learning that needs to go on. There's some, there's some there's some dark spaces that need to That needs to occur. There's some sunlight that's gonna occur. There's some watering that will occur. You know, and the watering on soil, it looks like you're drowning whatever it is at first until it seeps down into it. And so I think that that's what the in-between is. And I I I I hope and I wish that people will recognize that and then be able to learn from that. That God is not not seeing you. He's not ignoring you. You're just being cultivated. Tiana: Mm-hmm. And don't be scared of it because there's that's Shaniqua: Don't be scared of it. Tiana: also a little bit of pruning that has to happen. It's a little bit of shaping as they as they say, that viral sound that went. It just needs a little shaping. There's a little shaping that God that God has to do with each of us. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Just a little shape. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So we we we we we're nearing the end, but there are a couple of more things I I want to talk about because we've talked about, you know, new age Christianity. we didn't really we talked about a little about about the ancestors. but I I am very staunchly believe what I believe. I very staunchly believe what I believe. But I also recognize that Christianity is not a European invention and it's often packaged that way. And I think that there is a tension of that that's there. And we actually see it r a lot within Western the Western view and the Western lens of Christianity, of of scripture and what is of God and then demonizing other people's paths. So I love the fact that your path brought you to where you are right now with Christ and your study of the word. And I and I pray that for those who hear this, that their path will bring them there too, to where they are with Christ in their study of the word. And it not be under the lens of a of Western Christianity or a patriarchal lens that they will study For themselves to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of truth, because we are a priesthood of believers. so I wanted to be able to say that. and then what do you think are some of the signs that people can recognize if they're in the in-between? And what does courage look like right here at T? Tiana: So signs that you're in the in between is that you're tired of church but still hungry for God. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tiana: Feeling stuck between old patterns and new convictions. That's a good one. Yeah. Shaniqua: It's a good one. That's a good one. Tiana: Cause sometimes we don't like to feel those convictions, but we do feel the shift, as my mentor says, yield to the shift. Shaniqua: I love that. I love that. Tiana: Yeah. Shaniqua: And then with you know, we have to remember that there's no condemnation in Christ, but there Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: is a lot of conviction in Christ. A lot of conviction. Tiana: Yes, yes. Shaniqua: But there's no condemnation, but maybe there's a lot of conviction. Tiana: A lot of conviction. And then, you know, if you're frustrated with timing, titles, or spiritual progress, that can be a sign Shaniqua: Yeah. Tiana: that you are in the in-between. Yeah. But if you are in the in-between, what courage looks like here is keep going to church, keep staying connected to community, even if it's imperfect, even if you do not feel like it. Shaniqua: Can I say something? Tiana: Yes. Shaniqua: I love that even if it's imperfect, there is no perfect church. I can't speak that enough. if there's any type of abuse going on, get out that situation. If there's Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: anything where there is any a lack of integrity being shown, if there's abuse, physical, sexual, power abuse, dynamics, get out that situation. If there's anything where there's a misappropriation of funds, Fraud, get out that situation. That's not what we're saying. But if you are in a church and you are like, I don't like this, this, this, this, ask, talk to God there. But understand that there is no perfect church. I have seen the front of the church and the back of the church. There is no perfect church, but it is full of imperfect people that God is using. And Seek until you can find that place. Like that's that's all I would say with that. Seek until you can find that place where you can actually grow. So I just wanted to say that because we see such a huge exodus of people leaving the church right now. And it's it it really truly saddens me. And I understand why people are leaving the church. I understand it looks like there's hypocrisy. I understand, you know, people are like all of these things, but join a church and be the change that you wish to see. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: start the program that you wish to see. You know, I see people talk about churches. It's a church on every corner, and all they want is your money. And within the space that I work professionally, I'd be like, if y'all only knew how much churches actually do give back. But but even beyond that, be the change you wish to see and in the body of Christ, because we are a body of believers that are supposed to come together and be light and salt. And so I just wish people would not throw away. the baby with the bath water when it comes to church. And I know how easy that that is. That was my soapbox Tiana: well. Shaniqua: moment. That's my soapbox moment. So what else, what other things does courage look like? Tiana: Returning to the basics, return to scripture and prayer and honest conversations with God. I cannot stress that enough. Like when I talk, when I talk to my friends through my content, I call everybody my friends. When I talk to them, I'm like, be honest with God. That Shaniqua: What's up? Tiana: that raw emotion that you have, stop hiding it because guess what? He saw you think it. He already sees it in your heart. Shaniqua: Right, right. I already know. Right. Tiana: So just get it out and say it. There's nothing wrong with saying it. Yeah. Get that healing. Shaniqua: It had been said it said. And it's nothing wrong with questioning. It's nothing wrong with questioning either. Like I Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I can't stand when people be like, don't question God. Why? Because I'm a questioner. Now, am I gonna come at God any kind of way? Absolutely not. Am I gonna not hold reverence for him? Absolutely not. Does that mean that God I have to demand God answer me and is he gonna answer me? Absolutely not. But he made a questioning baby in Chaniqua Risher. And Shaniqua questions. I question. That's how I learn. And I am so thankful for the God on on high is that he he talks to me and he knows that about me. So it's okay to question. Tiana: It is. I made a video about that. Like, I mean, and we see it in scripture, David. Like, where you at? Why you turn your face away from me? Come back. There's nothing wrong with the question. That does not mean you're being disobedient. That does not mean you're not gonna follow whatever God says. It's just that you need a little bit of clarity. And he already knows that. So just sit down and have that conversation, right? And Shaniqua: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Tiana: then you also have to give yourself grace for the process. Shaniqua: Mm, mm. Tiana: I think we can be so hard on ourselves. We can condemn ourselves, and God's not even doing that. He's like, this Shaniqua: Yeah, yeah. Tiana: grace is already right here. It's sufficient for you. Just walk in the grace. You're gonna make mistakes, but walk in the grace. Shaniqua: that I love that grace for the journey yes yes yes with the process I love that and it's Tiana: Yes. So Shaniqua: it's okay to it's not okay to give up on God's presence with you there it's not okay to you to think that God is is has abandoned you it's not okay to think that it's okay to be tired it's okay to question but it's not okay to think that God has abandoned you because he hasn't and That is a stronghold that the enemy uses for is to isolate us. And that is so that's one of these one of these shows we're gonna talk about spiritual warfare. But isolation, Tiana: Okay. Shaniqua: it is a tool of the enemy with spiritual warfare. But God Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: is always there and he is always present and he does see you. So remember that too. Remember that too. Tiana: Absolutely. Shaniqua: Anything for f reflection that you think we can give to them or call to action or anything that you want to talk about at this these last f minute or two? Tiana: Yes, I would say I love to journal. So I Shaniqua: Okay. Tiana: would say if you can write down where am I in between right now. Shaniqua: Mm, okay. Tiana: If you can take it a step further, what would courage look like for me this week in that area? All right. And the Shaniqua: Okay. Mm-hmm. Tiana: last one, where have I seen God quietly faithful in my in-between before? Shaniqua: Woo. Okay then. Okay. I see. So journaling is a good way to start this process or a good way to a good way to understand where you are in this process of transforming or transforming and being in between. Okay. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Very good then. Tiana: And that's one way I can get honest with God when I write. Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: I love that. I love that being honest with God, like you talked about earlier. Okay. Well, I have so appreciated having this conversation with you. I look forward to next week. So, you Tiana: Me too. Shaniqua: all, for those of us who are following, who you all are following us, please like, share, comment. drop a comment in the DMs, not in the DMs, drop a comment and let us know. You can send us a direct message too, but let us know what are some of your in-between stories. we've shared ours. You have our at our email address, which is admin at the brave becoming dot co. the brave becoming dot co. But you can also direct message us with a drop drop it in the comments. We want to be able to engage with you and hear your stories. You can also sign up for our newsletter on Riverside. the link is in the bio. subscribe on all spot channels. We'll Apple, YouTube, Spotify. and then we look forward to you guys for the next episode. We have some special things planned for the next episode. Hopefully, you all will be seeing our first guest. Tiana: Hopefully. Shaniqua: Hopefully, hopefully. We're gonna see. We're gonna see. We have some things coming up. But anything else that you want to share before we sign off T? Tiana: as I always say, I love you all, but remember that God loves you more. Shaniqua: Amen. I'ma co-sign what she just said. Thank you all for joining us. Tiana: Bye.