Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Lecturer in Law: Last Lap for Tenure Track with Dr. Sam Illingworth

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Lecturer in Law: Last Lap for Tenure Track with Dr. Sam Illingworth · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:01
  Hi,
• 0:01
  I'm Dr.
• 0:01
  Sam Illingworth and welcome to Roast the Post,
• 0:05
  the story behind the bullet points.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, everybody.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to Roast the Post.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: This week,
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: Jen and I have a guest in the studio with us for the first time ever,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Sam Illingworth,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: who is an atmospheric physics lecturer and teacher in the UK,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: science educator,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: and works for a very prestigious university,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: which we will not name because,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: as you all know,
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: we do not name in shame.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Dr. Sam, welcome to the show.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: How are you doing?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good, thanks, Paul.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Jennifer.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Paul.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Delighted to be here.
• 0:41
  Also,
• 0:43
  I'm not correcting or anything like that,
• 0:45
  but my physics PhD was like 20 years ago,
• 0:48
  Paul.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: I would fail my undergraduate degree.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I am.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm some kind of social scientist, come poet, come educator.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but definitely not a physicist.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I call myself a lapsed physicist these days, I guess.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's funny,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: like we were talking,
• 1:06
  we were chatting the other day and I commented on one of your
• 1:10
  posts that I haven't
• 1:12
  cited primary source research in anything I've done for 20
• 1:15
  years and I forget how
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: to do it.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to know,
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: that Dr.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sam has one of our favorite Substack accounts,
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Slow AI.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can find Dr. Sam on Substack.
• 1:29
  And I think,
• 1:29
  yeah,
• 1:30
  it's important to know that's how all three of us actually
• 1:33
  connected.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So go check that out for sure.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we'll put a link to that in the show notes for sure, folks.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: You should absolutely check out Dr. Sam's Substack.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm increasing because I'm just Sam.
• 1:45
  Like,
• 1:45
  unless you're like HMRC or the IRS,
• 1:49
  you do not need to call me Dr.
• 1:51
  Sam.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: We refer you as Dr. Sam.
• 1:58
  Listen,
• 1:58
  I told you once,
• 1:59
  if I had a PhD,
• 2:00
  my dogs would be calling me Dr.
• 2:02
  Jen.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone would be calling me doctors.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would have the license plates that said Dr. Jen, so.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: What's really interesting is contextually,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 2:12
  so I have a lot of like American colleagues that we do a lot of
• 2:14
  work with as well.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: And like,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: I made full professor like two years ago,
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: but in the UK,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: professor is like a proper title.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: So in the like States in Canada, right?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like anyone, anyone that teaches is professor.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily a title thing.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas in the UK, it's like a big deal.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So like, I don't call myself Dr. Illingworth in the UK.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'd call myself professor Illingworth,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: although I wouldn't because that would make me a douchebag.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: But,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: I would,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: being called Professor Illingworth is,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: or Professor Sam is a bigger thing than Dr.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sam,
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: if that makes sense.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Which ages to understand.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because when I was,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a professor,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: everyone was,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: but that just means that you're an assistant prof at,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: a college.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was, like, no, that's not quite what it means.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: But long story short, you can just call me Sam.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's absolutely a check.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'm hearing is we should be calling you Dr. Professor Sam.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is that...
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Professor, PhD, MMA, MFIS, PSHDA, whatever you want to call me.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that, though.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like back back home for us, professor is kind of like no biggie.
• 3:22
  Like my mum taught Spanish at a local university and called
• 3:25
  herself professor.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And she wasn't.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: She's a lot of things, but not that.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's really interesting.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting piece of information.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: And we're going to find through my read in this job ad,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to find tons of job advert,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: I should say.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: I apologize.
• 3:43
  We're going to find tons of things like that where little bits
• 3:47
  of language stick out.
• 3:48
  And I've got quite a nice little pile of notes on what does
• 3:51
  this actually mean?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because over here in North America, it means this.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: But I feel like it means that, Sam.
• 3:59
  no i guess one thing like there's loads of stuff but service is
• 4:03
  something that
• 4:04
  always comes up as being very different in the uk compared to
• 4:08
  north america
• 4:09
  institutes as well like you know and we might get into it but
• 4:13
  service is basically
• 4:14
  shorthand for stuff that you're going to get do and not get
• 4:17
  paid for which you know
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: it's not really great in any way shape or form
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great segue into beginning the show.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: So we're going to kick it off, folks.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: And everybody at home,
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: if you haven't picked up on it already,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Sam is from the UK,
• 4:33
  and we are roasting a job ad in the UK this week for something
• 4:37
  a little bit
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: different.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: We'll start off with the Roasty profile as usual.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: So the job title is Lecturer in Law Teaching and Scholarship.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: The Report 2 title, not listed in the job advert.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Size of the institution, 5,001 to 10,000 employees.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: The industry is higher education.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: What does the organization do?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: undergraduate and graduate level programs,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: basic research,
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: and many other things that are worthy of taxpayer funding.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: Head office location, Cardiff, Wales, UK.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: Job location, also Cardiff in the UK.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: Geographical operating area throughout the United Kingdom and,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: kind of secondarily,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: I would say globally,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: depending on the nature of the work that this person is doing.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Job type is full time,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: which is defined as 35 hours per week and on site open ended,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: which note for the folks in North America,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: open ended is just another way of saying it's a permanent job.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a temporary or a contract role.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: the first thing that came up for me,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Sam,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: and maybe before we really get into the job ad,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: is they say the School of Law and Politics at Fancy University,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: and again,
• 5:49
  we remove the names of the guilty because we don't name and
• 5:51
  shame on this show,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: is seeking to appoint a lecturer,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: grade six in law.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: What does grade six mean?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Can you give us an outline for that?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Because that means something very different here.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: That would mean you're about nine years old.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: so grades are really different,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: not even across the four devolved nations of the United Kingdom.
• 6:13
  Let's just go crazy into what the United Kingdom even is,
• 6:16
  first of all,
• 6:16
  right?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: So the United Kingdom is actually a collection of many different islands.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we would have Great Britain, which is England,
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Scotland and Wales,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: plus Northern Ireland,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: that plus the Channel Islands,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: loads of like the Isle of Wye,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: not the Isle of Man.
• 6:36
  These countries basically make up the United Kingdom and then
• 6:40
  Great Britain would
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: be England,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Scotland,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Wales,
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: not necessarily segue.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: But the grade points across each of those devolved nations are different,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: and they're also different at an institutional level as well.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: So in Scotland,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: a grade six post would be a lecturer,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: which roughly tracks in North America onto an assistant professor.
• 7:04
  Grade seven would tend to be an associate professor and grade
• 7:09
  eight would tend to
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: be a full professor.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then above that,
• 7:13
  you would just go into different levels of full professor and
• 7:15
  then into deans and
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: stuff like that.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: So roughly speaking,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: grade six,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: although it changes on institute,
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: tracks as a lecturer,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: which in the United Kingdom would be your first tenured post.
• 7:28
  Again,
• 7:29
  tenure works very different in the United Kingdom to North
• 7:32
  America.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Basically,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: you apply once you get a grade six role or a lecturer,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: you're kind of in the system and then you work your way up.
• 7:40
  Typically through lecturer,
• 7:42
  senior lecturer,
• 7:43
  associate professor,
• 7:45
  professor.
• 7:46
  We would sometimes call associate professor reader for weird
• 7:50
  historical reasons.
• 7:52
  But to give you to go back to not be being that usual academic
• 7:56
  thing of giving you
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: way too long an answer.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: But basically, grade six means lecturer or assistant professor.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: with tenure,
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: in a lot of North American universities,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: tenure means that you really can't be fired,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: except for the most egregious,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: basically barely short of criminal problems.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: Is it the same in the UK?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Once you have tenure, you're kind of set.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, same.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
• 8:22
  apart from restructures that happen and that happen in a lot in
• 8:26
  the higher
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: education sector at the moment and like other redundancies,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: gross negligence,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's it's a closed contract.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And again,
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: think in the UK,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: what would typically happen is if you were going down the academic role,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: you would do your PhD,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: you'd do numerous numbers of postdocs until you got your first
• 8:47
  tenured position which would be normally be a lecturing role or
• 8:50
  a grade six role
• 8:51
  and then you'd work your way up but that's definitely what
• 8:54
  happened to me other
• 8:55
  people might go into industry and come back into it in
• 8:57
  different way shapes or
• 8:58
  forms but that kind of real slog and where the huge leaky
• 9:03
  pipeline is is those
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: initial post-doctorial roles so those roles immediately after your phd
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you get tenure as well.
• 9:12
  So the kind of people that would be applying for this role
• 9:15
  would be three,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: broadly speaking,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: three groups.
• 9:19
  They'd be people that were coming straight from a PhD that were
• 9:23
  maybe exceptional candidates.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a learning and teaching role,
• 9:28
  so you wouldn't necessarily be expecting lots of research and
• 9:31
  published papers.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: but we'll get onto that as well.
• 9:35
  The second type of person to be applying for it would be people
• 9:38
  who've done the
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: hard stock of the postdoctoral research positions.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: So these are fixed term contracts, normally between one and three years.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And again,
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: it varies,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: but people would tend to do two,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: three,
• 9:50
  four of those before they either left the pipeline or were
• 9:53
  lucky enough to get
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: tenure.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it is luck, I would like to point out in a lot of that.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really good context.
• 10:01
  What that kind of tells us is that this job ad,
• 10:04
  this position,
• 10:05
  it's fairly a big deal.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to be coveted.
• 10:08
  There are going to be a lot of people who are fighting really
• 10:10
  hard to get this role.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 10:13
  I would say from being on the other side of the panel and
• 10:17
  interviewing people at
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: that grade six role,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: you'd be looking at
• 10:21
  even for a stand kind of middle of the range university or
• 10:25
  higher education
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: institute,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: you'd be looking at several hundred applicants up to a few thousand.
• 10:31
  So yeah,
• 10:33
  it would be quite a coveted role,
• 10:34
  I would say,
• 10:35
  especially at a prestigious university.
• 10:37
  Is it typical then for,
• 10:39
  so you just found this posting,
• 10:40
  Paul,
• 10:41
  did you go in and search?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:43
  So would it be typical then for a university like this to use a
• 10:47
  recruiter and try
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: to like head,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: head hunt,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: or are they just looking for people to,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: because I feel like,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to get so many applicants.
• 10:57
  Is it typical practice to go in and maybe use a firm or do they
• 11:01
  have in-house
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: recruiters to find their candidates?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great question, Jen.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say for the senior positions,
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: that definitely does happen,
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: but you would be expecting that at professorial level or D level.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: For the lower grades,
• 11:15
  most of them are going to be advertised on a website in the UK
• 11:17
  called jobs.ac.uk,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: which is maybe where Paul found this.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yeah.
• 11:22
  yeah and so that's and that's where all of those are posted and
• 11:26
  i would say that
• 11:27
  because the sector itself is not in dire strokes but it's quite
• 11:31
  competitive at the
• 11:32
  moment they're going to be getting loads of applications and
• 11:35
  the third person that
• 11:36
  would apply for this is people that from another institute
• 11:38
  either wanting to move
• 11:39
  for family reasons or because you like sideways it's a slightly
• 11:44
  better institute or
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: something like that as well
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what I would say though,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Jen,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: is the way that things get cut down is you tend to have,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: I guess,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: similar in other roles,
• 11:54
  but there'll be a list of essential criteria and a list of
• 11:57
  desirable criteria that
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: have to be met.
• 12:00
  And what they'll do is they won't even consider putting that in
• 12:05
  front of the hiring
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: board unless they meet the essential criteria.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: There'll be absolute red lines.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: So a red line for this will be,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: in most positions like this,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: an absolute red line would be a PhD.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: So if you don't have a PhD or you're waiting for your viva voce,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: you wouldn't even be considered for this role.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And again,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: being on the hiring panel,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: you don't necessarily want to be looking at several hundred applicants.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's super hard.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it's very complex, but what would tend to happen is
• 12:38
  you would have to answer a load of questions that basically ask
• 12:42
  you to replicate
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: your CV,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: as well as sending in your CV,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: as well as sending in your statement of support and your referee letters,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: and then me on the hiring team.
• 12:53
  And the hiring teams tend to be made up of the dean of the
• 12:57
  school,
• 12:58
  a couple of senior academics,
• 13:00
  and sometimes someone from hr but that is not a guaranteed and
• 13:07
  do you do you get
• 13:08
  voluntold to be on the hiring committee or is that something
• 13:11
  that you can just opt
• 13:13
  in to do for experience or how does that work that's a great
• 13:15
  question it's i would
• 13:18
  say it's quite translucent in that i like being on those hiring
• 13:23
  committees for two
• 13:24
  reasons one it's helped me massively in terms of understanding
• 13:27
  what's needed and
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: two
• 13:31
  I think it's really important to have voices who like push for
• 13:34
  diversity in these hiring roles.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: But it's normally a case of, hey, we've got this role coming up.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Can you sit on that panel?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it's different from institute to institute, but
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also really hard, right?
• 13:48
  Because actually I think more junior members of staff should be
• 13:52
  on those hiring
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: panels because it's great experience for them.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: But then at the same time,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: what happens is those really capable junior people like get low,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: get landed with loads of work.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: So then it becomes a lot for them as well.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like we'd seen.
• 14:08
  yeah yeah all right let's uh let's carry on with the text so
• 14:12
  this is just the
• 14:12
  preamble to the job ad it's only a couple of pages it's rather
• 14:15
  it's relatively
• 14:16
  short which is a nice change for jen and i uh it reads the
• 14:19
  successful candidate
• 14:20
  will or have the potential to be an excellent teacher and
• 14:23
  scholar be close to
• 14:25
  completing or already hold a phd or hold equivalent
• 14:28
  professional experience in law
• 14:30
  or a cognate field by the time the appointment begins and have
• 14:34
  an ambitious
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: scholarship agenda
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: From a teaching perspective,
• 14:38
  the successful candidate will have the ability and willingness
• 14:40
  to teach public law
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: or EU law.
• 14:43
  The post holder may also be supported to supervise
• 14:46
  undergraduate students.
• 14:48
  And it says this post is full time,
• 14:49
  35 hours,
• 14:50
  open ended,
• 14:51
  and available immediately.
• 14:53
  Please direct any queries relating to this post to the head of
• 14:55
  school at email
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: address redacted.
• 14:59
  Appointments to roles at fancy university are usually made at
• 15:03
  bottom of scale
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: unless in exceptional circumstances.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I'm going to pause there very briefly.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: Sam, what does that mean, bottom of scale?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: So what that will mean is that within each of the grade boundaries,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: there'll tend to be about a six to eight point scale.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: So broadly speaking, let's say grade six is somewhere between
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: 40, 35 and 45,000 pounds.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you can track that to Canadian dollars.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then each of those will have like an increment.
• 15:33
  Now,
• 15:34
  what will typically happen is you will be hired at the bottom
• 15:37
  of that band.
• 15:39
  unless you can demonstrate you were in a previous role that was
• 15:42
  higher up.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's happened to me in the past.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the universities will tend to lowball you.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: And they will always come in at the very lowest point, basically.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Not just universities.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's private sector too.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: Jen and I talk about that a lot.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's good.
• 16:01
  So they're saying that they are going to pay as little as
• 16:04
  possible at the very start.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're being honest.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: At least they're being honest, yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: This was posted on Friday, 20th, February, 2026.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it says there's a closing date of Sunday, 8th, March, 2026.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: And for Posterity folks, we are recording on March 24th.
• 16:22
  Fancy University is committed to supporting and promoting
• 16:26
  equality and diversity
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: and to creating,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: that's what it says,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: an inclusive working environment.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: We believe this can be achieved through attracting,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: developing,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: and retaining a diverse range of staff from many different backgrounds.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: We therefore welcome applicants from all sections of the community,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: regardless of sex,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: ethnicity,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: disability,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: sexual orientation,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: trans identity,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: relationship status,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: religion or belief,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: caring responsibilities,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: or age.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: We especially welcome and encourage applications from those from under
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: underrepresented groups within the university workforce,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: such as those who identify as LGBT plus BAME or those with disabilities.
• 17:07
  In supporting our employees to achieve a balance between their
• 17:10
  work and their
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: personal lives,
• 17:12
  we will also consider proposals for flexible working or job
• 17:15
  sharing arrangements.
• 17:17
  Applications may be submitted in Welsh and an application
• 17:20
  submitted in Welsh will
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: not be treated less favourably.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: than an application submitted in English.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Let's pause there.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: Sam, what did you think about that section?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Did it strike you as relatively normal?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like for me,
• 17:33
  what I found interesting was they're saying you can submit your
• 17:36
  application in
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: Welch,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: which makes sense.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's Cardiff,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: it's in Wales,
• 17:40
  and it won't be treated any differently than an application
• 17:42
  submitted in English.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: That cues to me that there has historically been a cultural problem.
• 17:48
  and that Welsh candidates have been treated unfairly compared
• 17:51
  to English candidates.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: But what else stuck out for you?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty standard what they're talking about.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Again,
• 17:58
  I'd just like to add some additional context that we've got in
• 18:01
  the UK that I think
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: is pretty good in terms of inclusivity.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we used to have something called the two tick system for disability,
• 18:09
  which is basically if you as a candidate who identifies as
• 18:13
  having a disability meet
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: the essential criteria,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: you are guaranteed an interview.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is recently being replaced by something called,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: the disability confidence scheme,
• 18:25
  where you've got different levels depending on what you sign up
• 18:28
  for as an employer.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have, I think, the if you basically signed up for the
• 18:35
  levels two and three then you have that guaranteed interview
• 18:38
  scheme again which
• 18:39
  basically guarantees an interview to any disabled applicant who
• 18:42
  meets the minimum
• 18:43
  criteria for a job vacancy it's a bit like the rooney rule that
• 18:47
  you'd have like in
• 18:47
  the north north america's for race as well um also we have
• 18:51
  things around reasonable
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: adjustments and voluntary disclosure as well
• 18:55
  I would say that that element of things has moved massively in
• 18:59
  a positive way in
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: the past decade or so in the UK.
• 19:02
  The rest of the stuff is just standard what you'd see in an
• 19:05
  application form.
• 19:06
  And I don't know how they'd,
• 19:08
  I mean,
• 19:09
  what university wouldn't say that they're inclusive.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's it.
• 19:15
  is what's interesting to me is that like they're saying that
• 19:17
  they're welcoming
• 19:18
  applications from all of these like underrepresented um groups
• 19:23
  but if historically
• 19:25
  it really hasn't been that way and they're looking for those
• 19:28
  three categories that
• 19:30
  you listed then really how diverse is their pool going to be
• 19:35
  right like that's to
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: me that's that's what's really interesting and and i also want to know
• 19:40
  Whenever companies make statements like that,
• 19:44
  I would also like to know how they are doing it.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to say that they're doing it, but then like, how are you?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And a quick example,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: like we are working with maybe this society or this group or posting,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: So do they mention something called Athena Swan at all in that poll?
• 20:02
  so they don't okay athena swan is kind of like the uk's gold
• 20:07
  standard for um gender
• 20:09
  equity in in hiring and has done some amazing work so what
• 20:14
  would ten gen makes a
• 20:15
  really good point in terms of actually listing things that
• 20:17
  they're doing but that
• 20:19
  would be something that you could easily do and that some
• 20:21
  institutes do as well
• 20:21
  that we work with athena swan to make sure that we build equity
• 20:25
  in this so
• 20:26
  but you know it's really important to be honest about this you
• 20:28
  know i'm i'm a white
• 20:29
  heterosexual cisgender middle class man like universities are
• 20:32
  dominated by people
• 20:33
  like me like women women of color people of color people with
• 20:37
  disabilities they are
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: massively underrepresented in the university sector
• 20:44
  and the thing that i always do is you don't you don't look at
• 20:47
  the percentage of
• 20:48
  those peoples within the university you map it against the
• 20:52
  national percentages of
• 20:54
  those people so you know like what percentage of people in
• 20:57
  scotland are black women
• 20:59
  and then how does that map onto or in wales in this instance
• 21:02
  how does that map onto
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: the percentage of
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: people with tenure at a Welsh university that are black women.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: and again,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: they're very,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: very readily available statistics that you could put in that document.
• 21:17
  So you could say along the way,
• 21:18
  you know,
• 21:19
  we are committed to having gender equity.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is the percentage of men and women living in Wales.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what the percentage is at our institute.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And again, not to call out the university institute here, but
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of these are just empty words.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And in my opinion,
• 21:37
  even though it's very difficult sometimes to do this because of
• 21:41
  our discrimination
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: laws work in the UK,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: there should be an element of,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: there's a better word for this,
• 21:48
  but positive discrimination in terms of purposefully hiring
• 21:52
  people to fill those
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: roles in order to get the institute up to national levels of protected
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: characteristics.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is it that can be said in a couple of sentences.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just adding that.
• 22:04
  But again,
• 22:06
  places who won't add that extra context or or actually make
• 22:11
  that commitment.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason why it's because they're not going to.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's not going to be a priority.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, really interesting.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: certainly statistics around that,
• 22:21
  like providing some sort of organizational profile would make
• 22:25
  the job advert a heck
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: of a lot more appealing.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: But then on the other side of it, do they need to?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like Sam said,
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: we're getting hundreds of candidates probably for this already,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: perhaps a thousand.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Do we need to promote ourselves even more?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Perhaps not.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: Carrying on.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: So the job description itself.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: Now this section is kind of long.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to go through the entire thing.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's quite well structured, I think.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Job description.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: Main duties and responsibilities.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: Undertake a full teaching load,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: including the development,
• 22:56
  delivery and evaluation of public law and or EU law within the
• 23:00
  undergraduate post
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: and post-qualification provision within the school.
• 23:04
  to supervise students and to carry out administrative duties
• 23:08
  within the work area
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: as required,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: to pursue excellence in teaching,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: and to inspire others to do the same.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Then we have a number of subsections, the first of which is teaching.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: Design and deliver,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: these are bullet points,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: design and deliver teaching programs for courses and contribute to module
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: development as part of a module team.
• 23:27
  Inspire undergraduate and postgraduate students under the
• 23:29
  guidance of a mentor
• 23:31
  slash module leader and develop skills in assessment methods
• 23:35
  and in providing
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: constructive feedback to students.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: Supervise the work of students,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: including the supervision of undergraduate and master's students and the
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: co-supervision of PGRs.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: Briefly, PGR, what's that?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's a postgraduate researcher.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be a PhD student or a taught master's student.
• 23:54
  okay okay next bullet point is supply pastoral care through
• 23:58
  both acting as a
• 23:59
  personal tutor and providing support and guidance to students
• 24:02
  building and
• 24:03
  establishing trust the next subsection is scholarship
• 24:08
  contribute to scholarship in
• 24:09
  the area of work through participation in conferences seminars
• 24:12
  and other academic
• 24:13
  and professional forums to disseminate the results of
• 24:16
  individual scholarship
• 24:17
  Engage in scholarly activity through journal articles and or
• 24:21
  outputs which advance
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: knowledge within the area of work.
• 24:25
  Contribute to scholarship through interdisciplinary working
• 24:28
  with individuals and
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: teams within and external to the wider university community.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: Carry out other forms of scholarship,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: including work associated with examinations,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: for example,
• 24:39
  setting and marking paper and providing constructive feedback
• 24:41
  to students in
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: administration,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: participation in community committee work.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: My apologies.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: The last subsection is other.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: And bullet points again.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: Engage effectively with industrial,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: commercial and public sector organizations,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: professional institutions,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: other academic institutions,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: et cetera,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: regionally and nationally to raise awareness of the school's profile,
• 25:04
  to cultivate strategically valuable alliances and to pursue
• 25:08
  opportunities for
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: collaboration across a range of activities.
• 25:11
  These activities are expected to contribute to the school and
• 25:15
  the enhancement of
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: its regional and national profile.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Take a breath.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: That was one bullet point.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Next bullet point,
• 25:24
  undergo personal and professional development that is
• 25:26
  appropriate to and which will
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: enhance performance in the role of lecturer.
• 25:31
  Mentor colleagues with less experience and advice on personal
• 25:35
  development.
• 25:36
  Participate in school administration and activities to promote
• 25:40
  the work and the
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: school to the wider university as well as the outside world.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Any other duties not included above, but consistent with the role?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: We'll take a pause there.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: That was a lot.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: There was a lot of detail for bullet points, I found.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: It was a bit full-mouthed at points,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: but what were your impressions on the descriptions of the job,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Sam?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Actually quite good.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: So what I would say is traditionally in the UK,
• 26:10
  lecturers or assistant professors or professors have had to do
• 26:13
  everything like
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: teaching and research and like knowledge exchange,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 26:19
  And I would say being a good researcher doesn't necessarily
• 26:23
  make you a good teacher.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: There are people that that's an exception for.
• 26:27
  and again what's tended to happen in the uk is if you bring in
• 26:31
  a large research
• 26:32
  grant you get rewarded by having teaching taken off you which
• 26:37
  then creates this
• 26:38
  weird dichotomy that teachers teaching is seen as lesser than
• 26:42
  research not the same
• 26:43
  for every institute but things are changing a bit more recently
• 26:46
  and people have
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: kind of realized that maybe it would make sense to have different tracks
• 26:50
  So you would have different promotional tracks in terms of
• 26:52
  learning and teaching
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: research enterprise.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: But then you'd also have like this,
• 26:56
  somebody whose main role is to be doing the teaching with maybe
• 27:00
  a little bit of
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: scholarship on the side.
• 27:02
  So what I thought was really good about this was there was a
• 27:05
  lot of detail in the teaching.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: So the danger is that what they might do
• 27:11
  is hire somebody who is okay at teaching but has an exemplary
• 27:15
  research track record
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: because then they will bring in money for the university.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's always the worry with these kind of positions.
• 27:22
  The one thing I'd say was a bit of a glaring omission is I
• 27:25
  found it really strange
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: that there was no mention of fellowship of advanced HE.
• 27:31
  So traditionally this used to be the Higher Education Academy
• 27:35
  and it's normally
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: always a desirable or essential criteria for a teaching role
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: to have fellowship or associate fellowship of advanced HE.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you'd have fellowship,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: associate fellowship,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: fellowship,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: senior fellowship and principal fellowship.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've got principal fellowship.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's not a humble brag.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's just you work your way through these fellowship.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was a humble brag.
• 27:59
  That's a very,
• 28:00
  very good point about separating out those two tracks,
• 28:04
  researching and teaching.
• 28:05
  That's a common theme here in North America where research is
• 28:09
  seen as more important.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: And because of that,
• 28:11
  the incentive structures are really like lean towards research
• 28:16
  because that's what
• 28:17
  brings in donations to the foundation and grants and all of the
• 28:21
  funding streams
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: that come from research.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: from both private and, excuse me, private and public sources.
• 28:27
  Whereas teaching,
• 28:28
  the incentive stream,
• 28:29
  the incentive structure is completely different.
• 28:32
  Does it make for better quality education for undergraduate
• 28:36
  students to have
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: someone who can essentially fundraise resources for the university?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 28:42
  Does it make for better quality research to have a teacher who
• 28:46
  is amazing and
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: inspires and motivates
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe, yes, but a little bit indirectly.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: So putting those two things together,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: squishing them together,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: it's kind of broken from a systemic standpoint.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing I always push back as well,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: though,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: is that actually,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: even from a fiscal point of view,
• 29:03
  let's imagine that you are the module leader or program leader
• 29:07
  for a large business
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: studies course that's got 200 international students on,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: each of which are paying £30,000 a year to come on to,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:17
  You can retain all of those students through exceptional
• 29:21
  teaching that is worth
• 29:23
  more than any research grant than your university will be able
• 29:26
  to bring in that
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: year.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: But that's never talked about,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: which I always find really interesting,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: because even if you think about,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: epistemologically what the point of the university is.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Just from a purely economic or fiscal standpoint,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: excellent teaching often can bring in much more money than research,
• 29:47
  which is something that's not often accounted for in
• 29:50
  incentivization schemes.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: this is so interesting because it's something that I'm,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm writing piece a little bit on,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: on that and like who we reward,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: in the workplace because same in,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: in any organization,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: like if you,
• 30:03
  if you have a really good manager who is a great people manager
• 30:07
  and is retaining
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: their team and like,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: that's kind of,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: that's become like the expectation.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not seen as exceptional work in any way, shape or form.
• 30:18
  And yet,
• 30:18
  then there are other people who maybe almost do the opposite
• 30:21
  and drive people away.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: But they're really in jerks or they're really good at whatever.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then they're the ones who get rewarded.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones who get like the big bonuses or big raises or whatever.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And very, it's very, yeah.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that silent work that is really,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: when you're looking at return on investment,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: maybe you're not bringing in the money,
• 30:46
  but are you saving the company money by decreasing attrition
• 30:50
  and things like that?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it often just gets overlooked.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: which suggests a metrics problem, right?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like these things that could potentially bring in more revenue,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: more funding to the university or to a private organization,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: whatever,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: through exceptional teaching or people management.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: What are the metrics to track that?
• 31:10
  I feel like a lot of organizations are really,
• 31:13
  they're really underdeveloped in that area.
• 31:15
  Certainly I've worked in them and I've seen kind of firsthand
• 31:17
  that that gets
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: missed,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: get rewarded for sales.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Till like the cows come home.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's very easy.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: You brought in 25 million in revenue and you get bonus based on that.
• 31:28
  But,
• 31:29
  you know,
• 31:29
  your people,
• 31:30
  their contributions as a leader,
• 31:32
  how is that captured?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: Are you rewarded for that?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: Very, very, very rarely.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: I've never seen a structural systemic way to do that.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, me neither.
• 31:42
  I do have a question about the section that you just read,
• 31:46
  a question for you,
• 31:47
  Sam.
• 31:48
  In the other section,
• 31:50
  it said something about personal and professional development.
• 31:55
  And we've seen this now a few times in the job postings where
• 31:58
  I'm more used to
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: seeing,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: people who are committed to their professional development.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: What do they mean by personal development?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: They don't know what they mean.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: They don't care about that.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: They don't care about that.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: No one's going to,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: when you're looking at the application,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: no one's going to go,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: this person has 10 research papers published in Nature,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: but they have no outside interests.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: this person has two publications in mid-range journals,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: but wow,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: look,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: they volunteer at a food bank.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let's give them the role, yeah?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: They just, they don't care about that.
• 32:33
  They write it down because it's something that they feel has to
• 32:36
  be written down.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: So what you're saying is Jen and I,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: who each have zero articles published in a journal,
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: but host this podcast,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: don't get bonus points for that.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Let's move on.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Let's move on to the final section.
• 32:54
  So this section is called person specification,
• 32:57
  and it begins with important note to candidates.
• 33:00
  It is the university's policy to use the person's specification
• 33:03
  as a key tool for
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: shortlisting,
• 33:05
  and we only invite candidates to interview who clearly evidence
• 33:09
  that they meet or
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: partially meet each of the essential criteria.
• 33:13
  During the application process,
• 33:14
  you'll be asked to attach a supporting statement.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: This statement must outline how you meet the criteria below,
• 33:21
  and we recommend formatting this by using each criteria as a
• 33:24
  subheading and
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: providing your relevant experience slash evidence below each subheading.
• 33:30
  It is crucial that you save your supporting statement with the
• 33:32
  vacancy number in
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: brackets,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: EG1234BR,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: in the file name,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: as failure to do so may result in it being omitted from your application.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: Then it goes into essential criteria.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: There are a couple of subsections here.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: The first, qualifications and education.
• 33:49
  Postgraduate degree at the PhD level in a related subject area
• 33:53
  or relevant
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: industrial experience.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: next subsection is knowledge skills and experience teaching experience at
• 34:00
  undergraduate or postgraduate level relevant to public law or
• 34:04
  eu law demonstrate
• 34:05
  specialist knowledge and current advancements within academic
• 34:09
  subject area relevant
• 34:11
  to public law or eu law ability to design deliver and
• 34:15
  continuously develop modules
• 34:17
  across the school's teaching programs the next subsection is
• 34:20
  pastoral communication
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: and team working
• 34:23
  Excellent communication skills with the ability to present
• 34:26
  complex and conceptual
• 34:27
  ideas clearly and confidently to others using high level skills
• 34:31
  and a range of
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: media.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: The ability to provide appropriate pastoral support to students,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: appreciate the needs of individual students and their circumstances,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: and to act as a personal tutor.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: The next subsection other has proven ability to demonstrate creativity,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: innovation and team working within work.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: The final subsection is desirable criteria,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: relevant professional qualifications,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: evidence of collaborations with industry,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: proven ability to work without close supervision.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that is it for the final part of the job advert.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Sam,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: before we get into your commentary,
• 35:10
  one thing that is kind of curiously poking about at my brain is
• 35:14
  pastoral support.
• 35:18
  The way that I think about that is it brings up kind of this
• 35:24
  image of like someone
• 35:25
  in the clergy with like the little neck thing being a lecturer
• 35:28
  and that's a
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: requirement.
• 35:29
  And you're saying pastoral support,
• 35:31
  which means you have to be a person of God.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: But we can't say that because it's discriminatory.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: I suspect that it means something different in this context in the UK.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: Can you explain that to us?
• 35:41
  It basically just means being there to help your students with
• 35:44
  with their life and
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: with dealing with the university as well.
• 35:47
  and I would say it is the most important part of being a
• 35:52
  teacher and it's the one
• 35:54
  that receives zero training for so you know I've I'll speak
• 35:58
  from my own experiences
• 35:59
  I have had students in my office in tears like talking about
• 36:04
  their mental health
• 36:05
  issues their problems at home you know I've had to signpost
• 36:09
  people to like
• 36:12
  severe mental health needs expertise to suicide prevention
• 36:17
  organizations.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we receive no training for this.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it really does cause a huge mental burden
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: on the teaching staff as well.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very much, this is a great thing to have.
• 36:33
  I don't think it's very annoying for me because it's a bit like
• 36:36
  communication skills.
• 36:37
  It's something that people think you're born innately with,
• 36:40
  which is not true.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: These are skills that should be learned and which can be taught.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I've been in academia for almost two decades now.
• 36:49
  I have never had a single training session or being taught how
• 36:54
  to deal with
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: students in that situation.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: That is wild to me.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, Paul, I had the same question written down pastoral.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not a thing here.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: We don't talk about that in job postings.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: It makes perfect sense.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: It makes sense.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of matches there.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's so unfortunate and that's
• 37:15
  that's disheartening i would imagine that you probably have had
• 37:19
  situations in every
• 37:20
  single class that you've taught um does the school do the
• 37:25
  schools themselves they
• 37:26
  don't have on-site counseling services or it will depend on the
• 37:30
  each institute and
• 37:32
  like they're they're getting better so we would have like um
• 37:35
  mental health first
• 37:37
  aid training for certain people and there would be allies on
• 37:39
  campus as well but
• 37:42
  it's really at the periphery of of of what it should be um and
• 37:47
  you know my teaching
• 37:48
  load is a lot less than what it used to be but for those for
• 37:51
  those colleagues who
• 37:52
  have a very high teaching load who teach let's say classes with
• 37:57
  300 international
• 37:57
  students those students are each individuals who have imagine
• 38:02
  coming from nigeria
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: to scotland i mean that's huge um and
• 38:08
  yeah we're basically it's really difficult because you see both
• 38:14
  things you see
• 38:14
  teachers who maybe aren't giving the pastoral care that they
• 38:17
  should but then you
• 38:18
  also see the fact well they don't they've never been taught
• 38:21
  what that should look
• 38:22
  like either and i think in situations like that it's it's even
• 38:27
  sending them to say
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: a non-sick counselor
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: You really need that quick response.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: You need trauma informed training,
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: trauma responsiveness,
• 38:38
  and you need to be able to know what to say in that moment as
• 38:41
  it's happening.
• 38:43
  You don't want to send someone away and say,
• 38:45
  oh,
• 38:45
  I'm not sure,
• 38:46
  but let me get back to you.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Those are those tend to be can be emergency situations.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so.
• 38:52
  without that training it's it's very risky and it puts a lot on
• 38:56
  you as as the
• 38:58
  professor that's yeah that's really really interesting to me
• 39:02
  the fact that it is a
• 39:03
  category in and of itself they're they're declaring the
• 39:07
  importance of it and yet
• 39:08
  like you said the support isn't there to actually do that
• 39:12
  successfully so yeah it's
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: really interesting
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: So let's go into, this is one of my favorite parts of the show.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: Jen loathes it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that actually kind of makes me laugh a little bit.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_03: I get the giggles every time she says, I hate this so much.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to guess the salary range, Sam.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was provided,
• 39:31
  but based on your experience and what you've kind of seen in
• 39:34
  the higher education
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: industry in the UK,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: what do you think the salary range for this job is posted at?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: This is going to be 30 to 37,000 pounds.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: So the posted range, 41,064 pounds per annum to 46,049 pounds per annum.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: So they were more generous than you were.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's really good, Deb.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm massively out of touch with how much I should be earning.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I hate this.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: I get it wrong every single...
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: I thought you were going to make me guess too,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Paul,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: and I was just going to say whatever Sam said.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: That would seem cruel and unusual.
• 40:12
  No,
• 40:12
  Jen and I both very frequently lowball the salaries or sorry,
• 40:18
  we highball the salaries.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: Jen is typically 10 to 20 percent higher than the posted range.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm typically around that, too.
• 40:24
  Like we always think a little bit worse of the institution than
• 40:28
  is reality.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you're kind of the opposite here.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: you think that they're worse than they actually were.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Now for,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: can you comment on that salary range,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: 40 to 46,000 pounds per annum sort of range.
• 40:41
  If you're living in Cardiff,
• 40:42
  is that a decent livable salary for the area?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that house prices and other people can correct me on this,
• 40:51
  but I would say house prices in Cardiff are not as bad as they
• 40:55
  would be in
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: Edinburgh and certainly not as bad as they would be in London.
• 40:59
  I would say that or like Cambridge or Oxford or anywhere like
• 41:03
  that in the centre,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: you would struggle with that.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I think that would be a very reasonable amount.
• 41:08
  I think cost of living in Cardiff as a capital city would be
• 41:12
  lower than some of the
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: other cities that you would expect in England as well.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 41:17
  I think that would be a reasonable salary in order to eke out
• 41:21
  an existence whilst
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: living in Cardiff.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: Especially if you're building your career.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is your first kind of rung on the ladder and perhaps it's okay.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: All right, folks, we're going to go into a short intermission.
• 41:33
  Then we will be back with final scores and some takeaways for
• 41:36
  anyone who is
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: applying for a job like this or writing a job like this.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Stay tuned.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everybody, welcome back.
• 41:54
  We are at that very special part of the show where we're ready
• 41:58
  to render the
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: verdicts and fire up the barbecue torches.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: So Jen,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: thinking about this job post,
• 42:06
  both from the perspective of how the job post was written and
• 42:09
  how the role was
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: designed,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: what would you score this starting with how the job ad was written?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is new territory for me.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so it sounds like it's pretty standard.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would say maybe
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Seven out of 10 for me,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to see more about,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: in this,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: not just specific to this job posting,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: but in general,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: I like to know how,
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: if they want you to be excellent in this or whatever,
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: they use the word excellence a lot.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what are they doing to support you?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there's not much, and Sam had mentioned it.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: What about your career track?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: There wasn't much to talk about, like what's in it for you.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's mostly like, you need to be all of these things.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And there was very little, if any, here's what,
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: here's how we reciprocate that.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, seven out of 10 on that part.
• 43:03
  I don't know rating for anything else because I'm not really
• 43:06
  familiar with the,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: the reporting structure,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: whether or not the job design itself makes sense.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I really don't have thoughts on that.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a score on that.
• 43:17
  I don't know how I would score that because I just don't know
• 43:21
  that structure,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: what structures are like at universities.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: We'll give you a pass.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: We'll give you a pass.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: So you have an eight out of 10 on the job ad.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: Seven out of 10 on the job ad.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: For me, I looked at the job ad and it was quite well structured.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was easy to read.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: It was succinct.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: It was only a couple of pages, which is nice.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like they put a lot of meaty information into the available space.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: I would give this an eight out of 10.
• 43:51
  Now I felt that it was a bit wordy,
• 43:52
  especially some of those bullet points that weren't
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: paragraphs.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: You could break that into a couple of different bullet points.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: You could simplify what you're saying.
• 44:01
  I felt like there was some redundant information that someone
• 44:04
  who's applying for
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: this job,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:06
  they very easily could have made the leap between what you said
• 44:10
  in 50 words and
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: what you could have said in maybe 20 words.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: Could have been simplified.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: But as Sam indicated earlier, academics like
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: to, you know, talk and have the words.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe it's part for the course.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: When it comes to the rule design, I was a little bit more critical.
• 44:29
  And my comments are through the lens of I recognize that these
• 44:33
  are systemic
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: problems,
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: but you have to start somewhere if you're going to fix them.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: I gave this a six out of 10.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: for the role design.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: A couple of things really, really stood out for me.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: Separating that track,
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: the research track versus the teaching track,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: we talked about that a little bit.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's a big,
• 44:48
  big systemic failing in my standpoint of this job advert or of
• 44:53
  the role design,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: I should say.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: And all the reasons why it's kind of squished together,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: the incentive structure and everything,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: totally get that.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: But you need to start somewhere with change.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: So if you'd separated out,
• 45:05
  these two incentive tracks made this a research position or a
• 45:08
  teaching position.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: I felt that it could have been better.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: Another big thing that really,
• 45:12
  really stood out for me that I scored quite negatively against
• 45:17
  was the lack of
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: support for pastoral care.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's talked about in the job ad as if it's a bit of a throwaway,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: a bit of an afterthought,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: a bit of an expectation that's just normalized.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: You must do it.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: But it feels like there's nothing there to support it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: And Sam said that this is a big part of teaching at this level,
• 45:35
  and it's probably one of the most important parts from a human
• 45:38
  perspective.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: So that suggests to me that it could have been designed differently.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: Support structures could have been different.
• 45:45
  They could have talked about any training that's available for
• 45:48
  this role.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: And as Sam stated, probably isn't any.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: There should be.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I docked at a couple of points for that.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: What did you think, Sam?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: First on the job post, what would you score this out of 10?
• 46:00
  So I guess I should,
• 46:00
  first of all,
• 46:01
  caveat what I consider to be good or average.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a very optimistic person.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm scoring subjective, right?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, a seven is average.
• 46:09
  A lot of people would disagree and say that a five is average,
• 46:11
  but I think a seven is average.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I would give this,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: if we're allowed half points,
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: a 7.5 for the job advert,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: because this is fairly consistent.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't want to score it against what an ideal job advert should be.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: I want to score it against what's kind of industry standard because it's
• 46:28
  yeah maybe they could make it better but it's what we'd expect
• 46:31
  i liked how they
• 46:32
  separated teaching from research and i liked how teaching was
• 46:36
  actually at the
• 46:37
  forefront things that i think could improve it would be to have
• 46:41
  actual metrics like
• 46:42
  what what does success look like what does excellence look like
• 46:47
  can we have some
• 46:47
  examples of that and the other thing i'd really like to see is
• 46:50
  as jen alluded to
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: what's in it for the candidate?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: What does professional and personal development even look like?
• 47:01
  And then in terms of the role itself,
• 47:03
  again,
• 47:03
  I'd probably give it like a 7.5.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's set up to be a standard position.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing that's
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: too far beyond what you'd expect.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: But again,
• 47:17
  would be nice to see some more exemplars of what that support
• 47:20
  would look like,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: what excellence looks like,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: what a career pathway looks like as well.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, just kind of middle of the road, nothing too bad.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they will get a lot of candidates.
• 47:33
  And with this,
• 47:34
  they'll probably get a successful candidate as well to fill the
• 47:37
  position.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: If I was to give recommendations for applying for this job,
• 47:42
  and for rewriting the job if you're rewriting the job just give
• 47:47
  specific essential
• 47:48
  criteria like what do you mean by excellence and if you're
• 47:51
  applying for this job
• 47:53
  what i always think is go to the mission statement of the
• 47:56
  university pick out two
• 47:58
  or three excellent other academics and say how your work will
• 48:03
  align with theirs and
• 48:04
  how it will align with what the school's mission objectives are
• 48:07
  going forward
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: and you can dot that together with the,
• 48:13
  I think they called it a suitability statement that you have to
• 48:16
  submit with your
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: application.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's really good advice.
• 48:19
  So folks who are going to look for a job like this and are
• 48:22
  applying for a job like this,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: Look at the mission statement of the organization.
• 48:26
  Bring that into your personal statement and build a case
• 48:29
  essentially for why you're
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: going to make the perfect lecturer,
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: the best lecturer.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: What are the objectives the organization has?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: How can you address those objectives in a way that makes sense for them?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's great advice.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Sam.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_03: So folks, that is another episode of Roast the Post.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: We can consider this post roasted.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: Dr. Sam Illingworth, thank you very, very much for joining us.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: We were thrilled to have you here.
• 48:55
  thanks y'all appreciate it glad you could spend some time with
• 49:00
  us on roast the post
• 49:02
  the story behind the bullet points if today's episode helped
• 49:05
  you make sense of the
• 49:06
  hiring landscape or at least feel less alone in navigating it
• 49:09
  don't forget to
• 49:10
  subscribe you can find us on youtube or follow the show on
• 49:13
  whatever podcast app you
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: trust with your sanity
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're always looking for interesting job postings to break down.
• 49:19
  So if you've got one,
• 49:20
  whether it's surprisingly good or impressively confusing,
• 49:23
  send it in.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Listener submissions keep things spicy.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Follow that link in the show notes for more.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again for listening.
• 49:30
  Catch us next time when we take on another posting that
• 49:33
  definitely has something to say.