Latest / The Book Deal / Sarah Clutton shares how travelling the world and 'trusting the process' helped her create The Bookshop of Buried Pasts

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Sarah Clutton shares how travelling the world and 'trusting the process' helped her create The Bookshop of Buried Pasts · The Book Deal

• 0:00
  This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:08
  We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:22
  So no matter what stage of writing your at.
• 0:27
  We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:42
  The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Tina Strachan: Welcome to episode 91 of the Book Deal podcast.
• 0:59
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan, and today I'm chatting to Sarah Clutton, author of recently released The Bookshop of Buried Pasts and last year's bestseller, The Remarkable Truths of Alfie Baines.
• 1:10
  Tina Strachan: Sarah writes books filled with mystery, intrigue, and humor, and I had the best chat with Sarah recently, where she shared her travel adventures for book research, her writing process, which includes a close relationship with her sister, ideas that sprout for single scenes or characters, and the usual process of self-doubt and how we just have to trust in this process.
• 1:35
  Tina Strachan: We also chat about witchy influences and death doulas It's an incredibly interesting chat, and I hope you enjoy it Sarah Clutton, welcome to The Book Deal Podcast.
• 1:49
  Sarah Clutton: Thank you for having me, Tina.
• 1:51
  Tina Strachan: Aw, it's so exciting to see you.
• 1:53
  Tina Strachan: We're, we're Debut Crew'25 buddies, aren't we?
• 1:56
  Sarah Clutton: I know.
• 1:56
  Sarah Clutton: Exactly.
• 1:57
  Sarah Clutton: We've been hanging out on Zoom for a while now.
• 2:01
  Tina Strachan: It's been fun.
• 2:01
  Tina Strachan: We always talk about writing community, but yeah, Debut Crew's a, a, that extra bit of fun because everybody's sort of on the ride together, aren't they?
• 2:09
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 2:09
  Tina Strachan: And so excited to see what everyone else is doing.
• 2:11
  Sarah Clutton: Exactly.
• 2:12
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 2:12
  Sarah Clutton: We're all sort of clumping through the darkness together, working out where the light is.
• 2:17
  Tina Strachan: That's...
• 2:17
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 2:19
  Tina Strachan: But it's been so supportive.
• 2:20
  Tina Strachan: But you know, Debut Crew, so that was...
• 2:22
  Tina Strachan: That means your first book actually came out last year, uh, The Truths of Alfie Baines.
• 2:28
  Sarah Clutton: Yes, it
• 2:28
  Tina Strachan: did.
• 2:29
  Tina Strachan: And, um...
• 2:29
  Tina Strachan: But we're here today to talk about your brand-new book The Bookshop of Buried Pasts.
• 2:34
  Tina Strachan: Now- Yes tell us all about it.
• 2:37
  Sarah Clutton: It is slightly different to The Remarkable Truths of Alfie Baines in as much as it's...
• 2:43
  Sarah Clutton: Well, it's not set in Tasmania, for a start.
• 2:46
  Sarah Clutton: It's set between the Southern Highlands of New South Wales and Cambridgeshire in England, and it tells the story of Phyllida Banks, who's an antiquarian book dealer, who has, uh, some quite deep, dark secrets in her past.
• 3:00
  Sarah Clutton: And so one day she, um, she's suddenly missing from her granddaughter Lottie's life, leaving her not only to run their antiquarian bookshop, but to, uh...
• 3:10
  Sarah Clutton: She leaves her a request to find somebody called Francis.
• 3:14
  Sarah Clutton: And, uh, poor Lottie has no idea who Francis is, but she sort of sets out on this quest to work out what on earth her grandmother is doing and what she's done.
• 3:23
  Sarah Clutton: And she soon does some digging and it, it lands her in C- in Cambridgeshire and, uh, she finds there, uh, another bookshop with sort of eerie similarities to their own bookshop, and down the road, a man by the name of Francis Fitzhenry.
• 3:39
  Sarah Clutton: Who is, uh, has quite a, a dark past as well, and he, she, she sort of realizes, I guess, at that moment that her grandmother is at the heart of a, an unsolved crime a mystery that sort of baffled police for 50 years.
• 3:54
  Sarah Clutton: And so it's Th- this is the journey towards finding out who her grandmother really is.
• 3:58
  Sarah Clutton: But it's also a family journey about sort of mothering and secrets and grandmotherhood and spirituality, and there's a bit about witches.
• 4:06
  Sarah Clutton: There's a tiny little sub- subplot about sort of, um, Celtic mythology that It's got all the things, Tina.
• 4:13
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 4:13
  Sarah Clutton: It's amazing.
• 4:13
  Sarah Clutton: You know, if you want a book about a murder mystery with all the things, this is the one.
• 4:17
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 4:17
  Tina Strachan: Well, who doesn't want a book with all the things- a murder mystery with all the things?
• 4:21
  Tina Strachan: That sounds really exciting, and it does Yeah, it ticks lots of boxes, doesn't it?
• 4:24
  Tina Strachan: It sounds like it's got a, a little bit of everything there, which is very exciting.
• 4:28
  Tina Strachan: Um- Yeah I do wanna ask, though, so it is set in a small town?
• 4:33
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 4:34
  Tina Strachan: So not unlike your own, isn't it?
• 4:36
  Tina Strachan: Like,
• 4:36
  Sarah Clutton: little rural- Oh, that's right.
• 4:37
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah, so it's very much based on the small town I live in in the Southern Highlands.
• 4:41
  Sarah Clutton: I made up a village in this book called Brookbank, but Brookbank is very much based around the tiny village that I live in, and there are lots of little villages scattered around the Southern Highlands.
• 4:53
  Sarah Clutton: Um, so I've taken a little bit of all of them probably and just rammed them into this fictional village.
• 4:59
  Sarah Clutton: But, um, it's a I live in, in Berrima, actually, which is, um, home to the famous Berkelow Book Barn a beautiful antiquarian bookshop.
• 5:09
  Sarah Clutton: Well, it's a sort of secondhand book barn, and then down the back of the property, if you make an appointment, you can go into their antiquarian book barn.
• 5:17
  Tina Strachan: Wow.
• 5:18
  Sarah Clutton: And, uh, it's quite spectacular, and it also hosts weddings, and, um, it has beautiful restaurants.
• 5:24
  Sarah Clutton: It's got all of these gorgeous spaces.
• 5:26
  Sarah Clutton: So I actually had, um, my first, uh, my first Highlands book launch there, which was lovely.
• 5:32
  Sarah Clutton: And yeah, so I have got lots of good inspiration for the setting of this book in- Yeah locally.
• 5:38
  Sarah Clutton: And then we sort of head across the seas to, um- Mm-hmm well, I did a l- did lots of research trips about beautiful English gardens and heritage houses and, and that kind of thing over in England, so I was lucky to kind of weave that in, too, yes.
• 5:51
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 5:52
  Tina Strachan: Well, I definitely have some more questions about that, actually, traveling for research.
• 5:56
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 5:57
  Tina Strachan: But so if you're a local then, and you're reading this book- Yeah will you see parts will there be lots of familiar places
• 6:03
  Sarah Clutton: and
• 6:03
  Tina Strachan: places?
• 6:03
  Tina Strachan: Yes, there
• 6:04
  Sarah Clutton: will be.
• 6:04
  Sarah Clutton: I mean, I sort of mentioned some of the, um, colonial era, uh, buildings, the heritage architecture, uh, you know, the beautiful sandstone buildings built by these poor convicts who were sort of en- enslaved and made to work and drag all this beautiful sandstone and pick it out of the earth with their picks, and you can still see all these gorgeous chisel marks in the sandstone and think about those poor people.
• 6:28
  Tina Strachan: Wow.
• 6:28
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 6:29
  Sarah Clutton: But they did leave us this s- stunning architecture.
• 6:31
  Sarah Clutton: And, in fact, Berrima is a known as the most intact Georgian village on mainland Australia.
• 6:37
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 6:37
  Sarah Clutton: There's another one very similar in, um, near Hobart.
• 6:41
  Sarah Clutton: But, uh- This is in Australia.
• 6:44
  Sarah Clutton: It's, it's, it's got the longest continuously licensed pub in Australia.
• 6:48
  Tina Strachan: Oh, okay.
• 6:49
  Sarah Clutton: So there's fame in Berrima, not just books.
• 6:52
  Tina Strachan: No, there's so well, books and pubs.
• 6:54
  Tina Strachan: Like, it just doesn't rain.
• 6:55
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, there's
• 6:55
  Sarah Clutton: wineries.
• 6:56
  Sarah Clutton: There's, like, all the things.
• 6:57
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 6:57
  Tina Strachan: All the things.
• 6:58
  Tina Strachan: Okay, I am certainly gonna have to visit.
• 6:59
  Tina Strachan: And it's
• 6:59
  Sarah Clutton: and actually the, um, the Southern Highlands Berrima Village in Bowral and around there, it's known as a book town.
• 7:05
  Sarah Clutton: So, um, it's Australia's first book town actually.
• 7:08
  Sarah Clutton: So if you know about book towns all over the world, there are these towns that are, are called book towns, and they are known to be hot spots for literary types and bookshops.
• 7:18
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 7:18
  Sarah Clutton: And, uh, so yes, we are a book town even though we're a region.
• 7:22
  Sarah Clutton: It's very strange, but yes.
• 7:23
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 7:24
  Tina Strachan: Well, it sounds like a lovely place to visit if you are doing your international- It'd be book town tour, which sounds like an incredible tour.
• 7:29
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 7:30
  Tina Strachan: So did want to Klimowski though, like, as the plot sounds amazing, and, um, a- and, you know, the You're weaving in all these different elements, which is fantastic.
• 7:38
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 7:39
  Tina Strachan: So just the, you know, the blurb on the back of the book alone is a selling point, but I really wanted to talk about the cover art and- Ooh design because it's it Like, I know for me, uh, and everybody's got different, you know, things that they enjoy and different choices with their book cover design.
• 7:55
  Tina Strachan: But I For this me, this really stood out for me and was something that would really attract me if I saw it on a shelf.
• 8:01
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 8:01
  Tina Strachan: It's so beautiful.
• 8:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 8:02
  Tina Strachan: Did you have any, Can you describe it firstly actually for people that, that- Yeah.
• 8:06
  Tina Strachan: So- that haven't seen it yet?
• 8:08
  Sarah Clutton: That's right.
• 8:08
  Sarah Clutton: So it is the c- It is, uh, a close-up of a bookshop in a dark blue and old beautiful colorful books.
• 8:17
  Sarah Clutton: Mm, mm.
• 8:17
  Sarah Clutton: And then there's the silhouette of a, a woman, a 19 sort of 60s hairdo p- sort of floating through the background.
• 8:25
  Sarah Clutton: And there's lovely flowers all around it.
• 8:28
  Sarah Clutton: And yeah, so I it's a stunning, stunning cover, and I was lovely, uh, lucky that, um, uh, the the cover designer and the artist who was employed to do the artwork were so clever.
• 8:41
  Sarah Clutton: And- gave us this incredible, um, cover because it actually, I think, has really been quite showstopping- Mm you know, uh, in, in terms of, you know, it's had lots of you know, art- the artwork's been used on the cover of, of various magazines and things and it, in, in the book world.
• 9:04
  Sarah Clutton: And that's- Mm it's really lovely when, you know, artists are recognized for their work because that does help sell a book, I think.
• 9:11
  Sarah Clutton: If you're Obviously they say you can't judge a book by its cover, but I think you can judge a book at least by- And I think people
• 9:16
  Tina Strachan: absolutely do
• 9:17
  Sarah Clutton: I think it's fantastic, so.
• 9:19
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 9:19
  Sarah Clutton: Um, but it, yeah it's generated a lot of interest, which is very lucky for me.
• 9:23
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 9:23
  Tina Strachan: And did you have any input into that or did you just leave it all up to, uh,
• 9:27
  Sarah Clutton: up to them?
• 9:27
  Sarah Clutton: Uh, not There was a, a couple of little tweaks, you know, with some colors and things that I sort of, suggested.
• 9:33
  Sarah Clutton: But r- ultimately I, um, could see how well they'd done and I just sort of- was thrilled.
• 9:40
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 9:40
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 9:40
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, they know what they're doing- They
• 9:42
  Sarah Clutton: know
• 9:43
  Tina Strachan: what they're doing don't they?
• 9:43
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:44
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 9:44
  Tina Strachan: I find it really interesting because, uh, as you know, I'm published with Harper Collins, and every year they have an author day.
• 9:50
  Tina Strachan: And, uh, so you can, you can go down or can join online, and they ask various, um, you know, people in departments from, uh, the company to talk.
• 10:00
  Tina Strachan: And they usually always have the artists and the, designers, and they walk you through how they come up with these ideas and, and where they pull it from and put it all together.
• 10:09
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 10:09
  Tina Strachan: And jeez, it's- Yeah incredible what they do.
• 10:12
  Tina Strachan: And then, you know, the finished product, you know, how it, how- Look you know, they have a rough and then a finished product, and- mm it just looks incredible.
• 10:18
  Tina Strachan: And- Yes it really does sell a book.
• 10:20
  Tina Strachan: You know, if th...
• 10:20
  Tina Strachan: If, you know, you see The Bookshop of Buried Past on a shelf, it certainly would draw your attention.
• 10:26
  Tina Strachan: It's
• 10:27
  Sarah Clutton: kind of- It's intriguing,
• 10:27
  Tina Strachan: isn't it?
• 10:27
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it is.
• 10:27
  Tina Strachan: It,
• 10:28
  Sarah Clutton: it, it does reflect the sense of intrigue that I was trying- Mm-hmm to have with this book, because this is a book about, intriguing old bookshops and cozy, comforting corners and- Mm-hmm um-
• 10:40
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, they captured that.
• 10:41
  Tina Strachan: Definitely.
• 10:41
  Sarah Clutton: It...
• 10:42
  Sarah Clutton: They really captured that, didn't they?
• 10:43
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 10:43
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 10:43
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 10:44
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 10:44
  Sarah Clutton: And, you know, secrets, buried secrets.
• 10:46
  Sarah Clutton: That's what it's about.
• 10:47
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 10:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, and it's a little bit dark, but it's also got some beautiful color there.
• 10:50
  Tina Strachan: You know, I did wanna ask you, though, there's so- there's a couple of little books in the window.
• 10:54
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 10:55
  Tina Strachan: And they look...
• 10:56
  Tina Strachan: Uh, do they have any significance there?
• 10:57
  Tina Strachan: They sort of face out.
• 10:58
  Tina Strachan: They kind of look like they've got, like they're meant to be other books.
• 11:03
  Tina Strachan: Do you- Oh, look, I- They're already published?
• 11:04
  Tina Strachan: Yeah
• 11:05
  Sarah Clutton: I'm not exactly sure.
• 11:06
  Sarah Clutton: I sort of know what you mean, but it's, um- Yeah I don't exactly think...
• 11:12
  Sarah Clutton: I...
• 11:12
  Sarah Clutton: Look, I don't know.
• 11:13
  Sarah Clutton: I don't know.
• 11:14
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 11:14
  Sarah Clutton: That's a good question.
• 11:15
  Sarah Clutton: Ask
• 11:15
  Tina Strachan: the designers.
• 11:16
  Tina Strachan: They, they might-
• 11:17
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah,
• 11:18
  Tina Strachan: they
• 11:18
  Sarah Clutton: do it put their own little, um, private ones in there I just sort of thought it's very clever.
• 11:21
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 11:21
  Sarah Clutton: And they did actually take, you know, when I describe the bookshop in the book, it is a, that dark dusty blue.
• 11:30
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm and so they've really captured exactly what I said in the book, too.
• 11:34
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 11:34
  Sarah Clutton: Which is-
• 11:35
  Tina Strachan: And, um, titles as well.
• 11:37
  Tina Strachan: Was this your title from the beginning?
• 11:38
  Sarah Clutton: My title- Oh, wow which is interesting.
• 11:40
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 11:40
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 11:41
  Sarah Clutton: So actually the book started out when I pitched it as The Final Request of Phyllida Banks.
• 11:46
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 11:46
  Sarah Clutton: And Phyllida Banks is our protagonist.
• 11:48
  Sarah Clutton: She's 80- Mm and she's wanting to...
• 11:51
  Sarah Clutton: She's kind of come to that point in her life where she needs to...
• 11:54
  Sarah Clutton: Well, A, she's faced with a sl- something of a crisis, but then B, she sort of wants to look back and work out what is a good life.
• 12:01
  Sarah Clutton: And she...
• 12:02
  Sarah Clutton: This is her ponderings throughout the book.
• 12:04
  Sarah Clutton: We've, we still hear her pondering what is a good life and what is a good death.
• 12:09
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, so actually, Phyllida Banks was the beginning of this story.
• 12:16
  Sarah Clutton: She I had a scene in my head in about 2017 when I was writing actually, before We're, we're in this po- the, um, the debut crew together because these are my first two traditionally published books, but I had two books out earlier in 2019 and 2020 with, uh, Bookouture who are Hachette UK's digital first publica- publ- publisher.
• 12:40
  Sarah Clutton: And so I have had two books out before.
• 12:42
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, when I was in the middle of writing one of those and really hating it as I, I tend to do and I'm sure lots of other writers tend to do when they're in about sort of 40% into a book that they really-
• 12:54
  Tina Strachan: Hate and think- Start doubting
• 12:55
  Sarah Clutton: everything, yes oh, I'm such a terrible writer.
• 12:56
  Sarah Clutton: I've got nothing here.
• 12:57
  Sarah Clutton: There's no story.
• 12:59
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 12:59
  Sarah Clutton: This is stupid.
• 12:59
  Sarah Clutton: What am I doing?
• 13:00
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 13:00
  Sarah Clutton: I need to throw it away.
• 13:01
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 13:01
  Sarah Clutton: That point that, you know, I've definitely hit every time I've tried to write a novel.
• 13:08
  Sarah Clutton: I had this scene very, come to me really strongly of this sort of elderly wom- woman l- looking out the window one night and thinking about the en- ending her own life and- But she had this sort of glint in her eye of sort of mischief, and she was thinking of the things she was leaving behind and what she was leaving for the, for the, her loved ones, because she knew it was gonna be a big surprise.
• 13:35
  Sarah Clutton: I just had that scene very vividly in my head, and I thought,"No, that's the book I wanna write." And I said to my sister, who helps me write my books,'cause she's got lots of great ideas,"Uh, this book is really stupid that we're writing."'Cause I say she, she helps me write,'cause she just gives me lots of ideas.
• 13:53
  Sarah Clutton: Uh,"I'm gonna write this book instead." And she's Of course, as any sensible human would say is,"Don't be ridiculous.
• 13:58
  Sarah Clutton: This is a great book.
• 13:59
  Sarah Clutton: Keep going.
• 14:00
  Sarah Clutton: You just have to..."'Cause I'm not a, I'm not a finisher, but somehow I manage to finish.
• 14:04
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, so Phyllida Banks was put on the back burner.
• 14:10
  Sarah Clutton: She didn't have the name at that point, but she was really inspired by my grandmother, who was kind of a, kind of wickedly gleeful, joyous, intelligent, beautiful, g- warm human who just picked up people everywhere she went.
• 14:21
  Sarah Clutton: She had friends You know, she'd go on a train journey for two hours, and at the end she'd be writing down people's telephone numbers, and- Lovely you know, they'd be friends for life.
• 14:30
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, so she was this sort of curious, interested person.
• 14:34
  Sarah Clutton: And I wanted to explore what a good death was as well.
• 14:38
  Sarah Clutton: And so when I had this idea for The Remarkable Sorry, not The Remarkable.
• 14:44
  Sarah Clutton: The Final Request of Phyllida Banks, I pitched it, and then I thought,"This is gonna be about death, this book." Even though I write uplift, which is uplifting literature, it's meant to be funny and humorous and warm and feel-good, but with some dark themes in the middle.
• 15:00
  Sarah Clutton: I thought"I want to explore death.
• 15:03
  Sarah Clutton: How am I gonna do that in uplift?
• 15:05
  Sarah Clutton: That's gonna be fun." So I I wrote an article about this recently.
• 15:10
  Sarah Clutton: I sort of- Was interested in the idea of death doulas and death walkers.
• 15:16
  Sarah Clutton: I don't know if you know what they are, but they, um...
• 15:19
  Sarah Clutton: A doula in birth is someone who helps you through birth, and a doula in death is the same.
• 15:23
  Sarah Clutton: It's someone who helps you through the process of dying and death.
• 15:26
  Sarah Clutton: So it might be somebody you know, you might know you're dying and, you know, the logistical and physical and personal and familial aspects of dying can all be very difficult.
• 15:38
  Sarah Clutton: And so having someone there with you or with your family to help with whatever aspect of those things you want, whether it's your funeral, whether it's sitting by your bed and making sure you're comfortable, whether it's doing your paperwork, the admin, helping you to tell your children that you're dying.
• 15:53
  Sarah Clutton: What- whatever it might be, the death doulas or death walkers can help you with this, and they're trained in the how to help somebody have a death that they want to have that will feel right and you know, with dignity and all of those things.
• 16:11
  Sarah Clutton: So I was interested in that, and I, um, and I, I, it was my-- I woke up on my birthday about three years ago and sort of my husband had organized a party at, uh, a local pub for me, and then I, my death walker hashtag came up.
• 16:26
  Sarah Clutton: And I could see that my, uh, that this incredible death walker, who's very well known, and she has a, she has a center in Mullumbimby called the Natural Death Care Center.
• 16:37
  Sarah Clutton: She came up on my hashtag, and she- was doing one final course in Australia that year, it was May, one final course that year, and it was in Melbourne, and it was the following day.
• 16:52
  Sarah Clutton: And I thought, and it started at 9:00 AM the following day, and so I thought,"Hmm, I need to get to Melbourne for that." Can't...
• 16:59
  Sarah Clutton: And I live in the countryside quite far away from the airport, so I thought,"I need to go today so that I can get there for the 9:00 AM start tomorrow." So I canceled my birthday party while my husband was still sleeping, and I booked a flight and came to Melbourne and did a death doula course for one day.
• 17:17
  Sarah Clutton: It was really interesting.
• 17:18
  Sarah Clutton: Anyway, that's a long story.
• 17:20
  Sarah Clutton: E- and su- suffice to say, none of it made it into the book.
• 17:25
  Sarah Clutton: But, but Phyllida Banks' journey towards what is a good death and what is a good life and what is my sort of spiritual reckoning with all of these ideas is definitely through the book.
• 17:38
  Sarah Clutton: And so once I made her into a book dealer, there was a much more intriguing title I could give it, because who doesn't wanna hang out in an antiquarian bookshop, frankly- with a woman like Phyllida Banks?
• 17:51
  Sarah Clutton: And so, uh, I pitched that title to my publisher when I was halfway through the book, and she absolutely loved it, so that was lucky.
• 17:59
  Sarah Clutton: Hmm.
• 18:00
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 18:00
  Sarah Clutton: It was a long
• 18:00
  Tina Strachan: answer, wasn't it?
• 18:01
  Tina Strachan: But w- it's an incredible story.
• 18:02
  Tina Strachan: I wasn't sure f- at the beginning if death doulas, um, were actually real th- people a- real things that people do, but that sounds incredible, and what a hard job but fulfilling, and what an incredible type of person to do that work.
• 18:17
  Tina Strachan: Thank you.
• 18:18
  Tina Strachan: How did you find the course?
• 18:20
  Tina Strachan: It didn't make you wanna become a death doula- after that or?
• 18:23
  Sarah Clutton: Well, I've trained in a one, a one-day course, which makes you absolutely for nothing probably.
• 18:28
  Sarah Clutton: But, uh, what it did do was, all it did was sort of to tell you how a death doula could be- What's
• 18:33
  Tina Strachan: involved
• 18:33
  Sarah Clutton: trained and what's involved.
• 18:35
  Sarah Clutton: So, you know, I did my death plan, and I, Oh and you know, when we're with death, there's all these beautiful people.
• 18:41
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 18:41
  Sarah Clutton: People who are interested in a s- a sort of a, a beautiful death are really nice people.
• 18:46
  Sarah Clutton: Like, when you go to a course like this, you're only gonna meet nice people.
• 18:49
  Sarah Clutton: It's like the writing community, right?
• 18:50
  Sarah Clutton: They're all nice.
• 18:51
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 18:51
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, so we were all sitting around, about 25 of us in this room, and we did things like she's like, you know, sort of three-quarters of the way through the day she's like,"Oh, now, you know, we were talking about disposal methods, right?
• 19:05
  Sarah Clutton: So you can, all of the things, coffins and this and that and-"
• 19:08
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm
• 19:09
  Sarah Clutton: "natural disposal." And then we talked about shrouds and what is the purpose of a shroud and why would you do that and- And then we were, like, given the opportunity to be wrapped in a shroud-
• 19:22
  Tina Strachan: Mm
• 19:23
  Sarah Clutton: um, and how, how to wrap someone in a shroud after they- Wow how to wrap your person.
• 19:28
  Sarah Clutton: And so eight people would wrap the person on the floor, and we all took turns, and we were all, like, definitely keen to be wrapped in the shroud.
• 19:37
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 19:37
  Sarah Clutton: And they teach you how to...
• 19:39
  Sarah Clutton: Or maybe it was six people.
• 19:40
  Sarah Clutton: I don't...
• 19:41
  Sarah Clutton: Six or eight people.
• 19:41
  Sarah Clutton: Three on, four, four on each side of this shroud, and it's, which is just a piece of fabric, whatever beautiful piece of fabric you want to use.
• 19:50
  Sarah Clutton: And you would lie, the person would lie on it, and you would...
• 19:55
  Sarah Clutton: Obviously, there would be no movement.
• 19:57
  Sarah Clutton: You would be pretending that you were the person who was going, who was dead, and they would wrap you s- ever so gently, then they would pick you up and, in a second piece of fabric, rock you in the air in this dark room while you were wrapped in a shroud.
• 20:15
  Sarah Clutton: It was the most incredible moment.
• 20:19
  Sarah Clutton: It was- S- s- just to feel the care of these human beings who are so invested in honoring a person, right?
• 20:29
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 20:30
  Sarah Clutton: And learning how to honor somebody, their person.
• 20:34
  Sarah Clutton: It was so sort of moving- Mm as a, as a participant.
• 20:38
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 20:39
  Sarah Clutton: Anyway, that was one of my experiences in the club.
• 20:41
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 20:42
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 20:42
  Tina Strachan: That's beautiful.
• 20:44
  Tina Strachan: It's, uh, k- quite spiritual and kind of, yeah, it's sort of as serious as death can be, it's, um, so lovely to th- to think that- if you're planning it,'cause it's the person who's faced with death that's actually organizing all of this, right?
• 21:01
  Tina Strachan: And putting this all in place.
• 21:03
  Tina Strachan: So it must feel really empowering to
• 21:07
  Sarah Clutton: sort of have control of that.
• 21:08
  Sarah Clutton: Well, and I think there were, there were lots of people there from diff- for different reasons, I think.
• 21:10
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 21:10
  Sarah Clutton: Some people wanted to do the long training course as a death doula.
• 21:14
  Sarah Clutton: Other people may have had someone in their life who was facing death.
• 21:19
  Sarah Clutton: Other people just wanted to get ready because they had aging parents or other people in their lives who would be coming to this moment that we are all gonna come to.
• 21:29
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 21:29
  Sarah Clutton: And they all, they just, they were just interested.
• 21:31
  Sarah Clutton: So it was, it was- Mm super interesting.
• 21:35
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 21:35
  Sarah Clutton: But anyway- Great
• 21:36
  Tina Strachan: experience
• 21:36
  Sarah Clutton: the book's actually not about death.
• 21:37
  Sarah Clutton: It's-
• 21:38
  Tina Strachan: No, that's right.
• 21:38
  Tina Strachan: But that's okay.
• 21:39
  Tina Strachan: But you know what?
• 21:40
  Tina Strachan: It'll probably work its way into future books, and I think that- Oh, yeah would be incredible.
• 21:44
  Tina Strachan: Um- Doing a d- death walker protagonist.
• 21:46
  Tina Strachan: Oh, yeah.
• 21:47
  Tina Strachan: How amazing.
• 21:47
  Tina Strachan: Well- Yeah.
• 21:48
  Tina Strachan: Oh, that's so interesting that
• 21:49
  Sarah Clutton: could be interesting, right?
• 21:51
  Sarah Clutton: I might have to do a bit more research.
• 21:52
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 21:52
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 21:52
  Tina Strachan: I would love to
• 21:53
  Sarah Clutton: read that.
• 21:54
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 21:56
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 21:56
  Sarah Clutton: That's good.
• 21:56
  Sarah Clutton: But, but Phyllida is, Phyllida is our wise woman in the book.
• 21:58
  Sarah Clutton: She's a beautiful protagonist because she doesn't feel sorry for herself.
• 22:02
  Sarah Clutton: She is curious.
• 22:04
  Sarah Clutton: You know, and people who are curious, they're the people that you wanna hang out with because they ask questions and they're interested in you.
• 22:10
  Sarah Clutton: And then, you know, she's not judgmental.
• 22:12
  Sarah Clutton: She's But she's made mistakes, and she's also dealing with the mental health crises that have faced her through her life because of past traumas.
• 22:21
  Sarah Clutton: And so, you know, I try not to shy away from that.
• 22:25
  Sarah Clutton: But, realizing that, you know, these people who are incredibly wise and warm may well have had these traumas and these crises in their life.
• 22:36
  Sarah Clutton: But they have faced them, and she is sort of teaching her family, I guess, or her community what it is to walk with your past.
• 22:46
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 22:46
  Sarah Clutton: And how, if you, There's a, a line in the book which I can't remem- because I made it up so long ago, but, you know, after a lot of reading and a lot of kind of, uh, this Celtic mythology working its way into my mind, you know, if you learn to walk with your past while the raven flies, you will- that, you know, that if you learn to walk with it, there will be, that's where wisdom lies and to sit with it, and to, to be beside it, and to understand that you can't turn away from what you've faced, but you just need to sit with it.
• 23:24
  Sarah Clutton: And this is her journey about sitting with her past, and how she has sometimes not done that-
• 23:30
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm but
• 23:31
  Sarah Clutton: how she does do that.
• 23:32
  Sarah Clutton: But really at the heart, this book is a rollicking murder mystery.
• 23:35
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 23:35
  Sarah Clutton: But we have this sort of interesting spiritual journey of Phyllida on the side, so that's quite fun to do too.
• 23:42
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun.
• 23:44
  Tina Strachan: We've had a few authors on recently that have been talking about or mentioning what we've been calling the stalking idea where this idea sort of comes into your mind and for a story.
• 23:57
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, it sounds like that's what happened with this one.
• 24:00
  Tina Strachan: It sort of popped into your mind, and you thought about it, and then sort of just popped it to the side a little bit, but it didn't leave you.
• 24:07
  Tina Strachan: And, and that's...
• 24:08
  Tina Strachan: And they were all saying that's how you know that that's sort of the story that you have to write.
• 24:11
  Tina Strachan: So is that what happened with you?
• 24:14
  Sarah Clutton: I mean, certainly that was that was my protagonist who came to me just with that one scene, and it was actually the same way that Alfie Baines started too.
• 24:22
  Sarah Clutton: I had one scene.
• 24:23
  Sarah Clutton: I had...
• 24:24
  Sarah Clutton: In Alfie Baines, I had a very strong scene that I'd written years ago that I f- stumbled on when I was looking for a new book idea of an older woman who, in her 60s, on the phone to her sister, and I'd, I'd written this scene, so I'd, I'd forgotten about it.
• 24:37
  Sarah Clutton: But it was a...
• 24:38
  Sarah Clutton: She was on the phone to her sister.
• 24:40
  Sarah Clutton: She was in her farmhouse.
• 24:41
  Sarah Clutton: She was sort of struggling with life and ideas and, loneliness.
• 24:46
  Sarah Clutton: And she goes to the door of her farmhouse when there's a knock, and at the front door stands a boy, and the scene finished there.
• 24:54
  Sarah Clutton: You know, I knew nothing about this woman or this boy.
• 24:57
  Sarah Clutton: I didn't know who the boy was.
• 24:59
  Sarah Clutton: But when I was sort of thinking maybe I'll write a book, uh, to learn who this boy is, that was- sim- that was the whole imp- impetus for that book.
• 25:09
  Sarah Clutton: And similarly with this one, what was the secret that this elderly woman was looking at out the window and thinking about as she pondered death?
• 25:18
  Sarah Clutton: And that for me has been how those two books started.
• 25:23
  Sarah Clutton: My current book is really driving me crazy'cause I don't have one of those scenes to go on.
• 25:28
  Tina Strachan: Oh.
• 25:29
  Sarah Clutton: I don't know what the book is.
• 25:30
  Sarah Clutton: I'm just, I'm writing every day thinking,"Oh, this is terrible." But, um- It's
• 25:35
  Tina Strachan: the process though, isn't it?
• 25:37
  Tina Strachan: It's the process.
• 25:37
  Tina Strachan: Uh, it
• 25:37
  Sarah Clutton: is.
• 25:38
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 25:39
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 25:39
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah, no, I remember very vividly talking to my publisher, Annette Barlow, in, at a festival one, you know, s- nine months before Bookshop needed to be handed in, and I said,"Oh, Annette, this book's terrible." And she's like,"It is not, stop it
• 25:58
  Tina Strachan: She's like,"All my authors come
• 25:59
  Sarah Clutton: to me at some point and say that.""Annette, would you rewrite it 300 times and it's no longer terrible, and it actually, that, that it's quite good." And you're like,"Oh my God, this is amazing.
• 26:06
  Sarah Clutton: How did it go from terrible to good?
• 26:08
  Sarah Clutton: This is unbelievable." So that is trusting the process- Mm-hmm which is a s- one of those little phrases that I never really understood until, like, last week, when I thought,"Oh, I've been here so many times before.
• 26:20
  Sarah Clutton: I hate everything I write."
• 26:21
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 26:21
  Tina Strachan: It sort of doesn't make it easier though, does it?
• 26:26
  Tina Strachan: I feel like you still get-
• 26:27
  Sarah Clutton: No, it doesn't.
• 26:29
  Sarah Clutton: Although it does make you feel like,"I can do it.
• 26:31
  Sarah Clutton: I can do it."
• 26:32
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 26:32
  Tina Strachan: Like, y- you know, you've got that hindsight,"I've done it before, I can do it again." But then you're stuck in it and you still think,"No, this is rubbish.
• 26:38
  Tina Strachan: I cannot write." Yeah, but
• 26:39
  Sarah Clutton: then you feel-
• 26:40
  Tina Strachan: But, yes And you trust the process, and you just keep going.
• 26:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 26:45
  Tina Strachan: No, that's-
• 26:46
  Sarah Clutton: I'll keep going.
• 26:46
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Sarah Clutton: I mean, I think there's probably something in my brain, but who knows?
• 26:52
  Tina Strachan: It'll...
• 26:52
  Tina Strachan: Well, it will, it will come out.
• 26:54
  Tina Strachan: It will flow, I'm sure of it.
• 26:55
  Tina Strachan: But so that's an incredible story about the researching of the death-dwellers and the death walkers.
• 26:59
  Tina Strachan: And I did wanna talk to you about researching for books, and how traveling is a really good excuse.
• 27:06
  Tina Strachan: I mean, sorry, is very important for research.
• 27:11
  Tina Strachan: Exactly.
• 27:11
  Tina Strachan: Um, but if you can, if you can work in a few, you know, overseas locations, then traveling surely, uh, is a great way of going over and seeing for yourself, and, you know- Yeah finding what, what parts you wanna include.
• 27:26
  Tina Strachan: And, uh, you did this with, uh, with your book, and I just wanted to ask you a little bit about that, where you traveled,'cause a lot of it, like you said, was half of it really is overseas.
• 27:36
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 27:37
  Tina Strachan: And you-
• 27:37
  Sarah Clutton: Almost.
• 27:38
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah, a little bit less probably.
• 27:39
  Sarah Clutton: 40% is set in, in England.
• 27:43
  Sarah Clutton: And, you know, and equally the book I'm writing now is partially set in Scotland.
• 27:47
  Sarah Clutton: And-
• 27:48
  Tina Strachan: Oh, and have you been there?
• 27:49
  Tina Strachan: I'm
• 27:51
  Sarah Clutton: back from Scotland- Okay from my research trip.
• 27:52
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 27:52
  Tina Strachan: Um,
• 27:53
  Sarah Clutton: but yeah, I think- that's really because, I mean, apart from wanting to explore issues like death and dying and, um, issues like with Alfie Baines, I wanted to explore issues of grandmothering, and I wanted to explore the issues around agency in children.
• 28:15
  Sarah Clutton: What does it take?
• 28:16
  Sarah Clutton: What is it when a child has no agency in their dis- in their life, and what does that look like?
• 28:21
  Sarah Clutton: And what would that look like if you had a character like Alfie Baines, who is quite extraordinary?
• 28:26
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, that he- helps, you know, with those nar- That narrative drive is much easier when you've got an unusual child, right?
• 28:36
  Sarah Clutton: To look at those issues like agency and childhood, and what it feels like to be helpless to be not in charge of your own destiny, and why is that why is that Is it that we give children so little agency in their own lives?
• 28:51
  Sarah Clutton: That was an interesting theme.
• 28:52
  Sarah Clutton: Even though I didn't know I was necessarily exploring that, when I got into the depths of that book, that was what I was exploring.
• 29:01
  Sarah Clutton: Um, but equally in these sort of interesting themes that you get to play with as an author,'cause you're just lucky, right?
• 29:10
  Sarah Clutton: I equally just wanna go back to being in the Famous Five and drinking lemonade and lying in the hea- having an adventure where there's a cave and a pirate and a smuggler.
• 29:18
  Sarah Clutton: Equally, I just wanna do that.
• 29:20
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 29:20
  Sarah Clutton: In Bookshop at Buried Pass, I thought,"Well, I need a bit of that, right?
• 29:24
  Sarah Clutton: I need, like, a mystery, and there's gotta be some heather and ginger beer or whatever." Maybe not.
• 29:29
  Sarah Clutton: There were probably red wine.
• 29:31
  Sarah Clutton: But so I went to- England, and I thought,"I need to find a manor house,"'cause at the heart of Bookshop of Buried Pasts is a manor house in the English countryside, and I needed to find this place because I really do write from life, so I need to know what I'm writing because I've seen it.
• 29:50
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 29:50
  Sarah Clutton: So I wanted to take a real manor house and use that.
• 29:54
  Sarah Clutton: And so I traveled around the UK and all around the UK, and I've ended up finding one in Richmond called Ham House.
• 30:01
  Sarah Clutton: Beautiful old manor house from the 1500s or whatever.
• 30:05
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, so that was really fun, so going on a trip and, you know, claiming my, my expenses for a little bit of tax relief was fun.
• 30:17
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, also just going around to all these places and seeing these incredible English walled gardens and beautiful old houses that have so much history in the secret passages, and the beautiful old paintings on the walls, and all of these things.
• 30:31
  Sarah Clutton: So that stuff was fun.
• 30:33
  Sarah Clutton: And, going And in the book there is a scene set in the real village in Devon of Clovelly, which is an incredibly gorgeous fishing village, and if, if you've ever been to Clovelly, y- you won't forget it.
• 30:46
  Sarah Clutton: It's this tiny village of, I don't know, maybe 100 houses maybe more.
• 30:52
  Sarah Clutton: But it, it's set on the side of the of a very steep hill with all these cobbled paths between them.
• 30:59
  Sarah Clutton: There are no cars allowed into the village, and so until ex- until extremely recently, donkeys pulled people's groceries up the hill or down the hill by sled.
• 31:11
  Sarah Clutton: Interesting.
• 31:11
  Sarah Clutton: So there would be one place, a tiny little spot for a car or a truck at the bottom of the hill, and then you would get your donkey to bring your, your groceries up on a sled.
• 31:21
  Sarah Clutton: And this was going on for a long, long time till very recently.
• 31:24
  Sarah Clutton: And so in the book when I'm back in our'60s timeline,'cause there is a, a'60- 1960s and a 1970s timeline in here- We go to Clovelly and we have that little experience, which was super fun.
• 31:37
  Sarah Clutton: And Clovelly now is spectacular to visit.
• 31:40
  Sarah Clutton: There's a pub at the bottom of the hill called The Red Lion, and that's the only place in the village where you're allowed to bring a car because it's right at the bottom of the hill on this curved bay where all of these spectacular s- fishing boats sit.
• 31:53
  Sarah Clutton: And there's a pub that comes out into the ocean on this sort of stone, uh, th- built stone harbor.
• 32:02
  Sarah Clutton: And around the bay all the, these tiny little cottages are built overlooking the pub, The Red Lion.
• 32:09
  Sarah Clutton: And there's only a few rooms at The Red Lion.
• 32:12
  Sarah Clutton: It's really hard to get a room if you don't book ahead.
• 32:15
  Sarah Clutton: And so I managed to get one night at The Red Lion.
• 32:18
  Sarah Clutton: So we drove in, and because there are no parking spaces the only people who come to the pub in the summer when I was there, in this spectacular place that has been used in films because it is so filmic.
• 32:35
  Sarah Clutton: It, the only people that come are the tourists who have happened to have one of the, 15 rooms at the pub or whatever.
• 32:41
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 32:41
  Sarah Clutton: Or 20 rooms at the pub, and the locals.
• 32:45
  Sarah Clutton: So this is a local pub, and every summer, uh, every summer and every Friday night and Saturday night during summer they have a band playing on this incredible harbor for the locals and those lucky tourists.
• 32:57
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 32:57
  Sarah Clutton: Which happened to be about seven people.
• 32:59
  Sarah Clutton: My husband and me.
• 33:00
  Sarah Clutton: And it was the most moving, gorgeous place.
• 33:04
  Sarah Clutton: And it's owned by the fellow at the top who has a manor house right at the top of the hill.
• 33:11
  Sarah Clutton: He owns every house in that village.
• 33:12
  Sarah Clutton: He doesn't let, um, second homers rent from him.
• 33:16
  Sarah Clutton: They have to be contributing members of the village.
• 33:18
  Sarah Clutton: Village was once owned by the Queen in the 1200s, and she's on-sold it to these very wealthy families who've held it through the generations.
• 33:25
  Sarah Clutton: It's the most unusual place.
• 33:26
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 33:27
  Sarah Clutton: And it's incredibly beautiful, and you can only walk up these very steep cobbled paths through these tiny stone houses.
• 33:35
  Sarah Clutton: a- and you talk to the locals and they think it's the most wonderful place to live.
• 33:39
  Sarah Clutton: So there was a little bit of Ginger Beer and Heather research for you.
• 33:41
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 33:42
  Sarah Clutton: That was fun.
• 33:42
  Sarah Clutton: I put it in the book.
• 33:43
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 33:43
  Tina Strachan: No, that's perfect.
• 33:44
  Tina Strachan: Well, you need the balance, right?
• 33:46
  Tina Strachan: Between murder mystery and, just lying in the fields in the middle of- And all of the other things
• 33:49
  Sarah Clutton: yeah.
• 33:50
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 33:51
  Tina Strachan: But also, travel, you know, you could be going there to research a particular thing.
• 33:56
  Tina Strachan: You've got a little bit of an idea about it, but you just don't know what you're gonna stumble across- Yeah and how it's going to work its way into your books.
• 34:03
  Tina Strachan: And places like that, I f- I feel like it only happens when you're traveling far away.
• 34:08
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 34:08
  Tina Strachan: And when you sit back and you just go,"What is...
• 34:10
  Tina Strachan: Where are we?
• 34:11
  Tina Strachan: What is happening?
• 34:12
  Tina Strachan: This is, this is otherworldly." And you just, it, it just creates this m- magical experience that you'll remember forever and, and, you know, it could be made into your book.
• 34:21
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah, no, that's right.
• 34:22
  Sarah Clutton: You can put these in your book.
• 34:23
  Sarah Clutton: So yeah, I just got back from Scotland, and I decided I'd s- I pitched it my next book.
• 34:28
  Sarah Clutton: I pitched a, you know, this, this woman who owns a Scottish...
• 34:34
  Sarah Clutton: She's married to the Scottish laird, and they, um, have this- crises happen and, um, anyway I thought, oh, I need to go and work out how this Scottish landholding system works,'cause it's, it's quite a, a topical at the moment, the landholdings in Scotland.
• 34:50
  Sarah Clutton: There's a lot of push to change the regulations because these old families in Scotland have owned so much of the land forever, and I, so I went across to Scotland and through a friend of a friend I met, you know, the lad of, of one of these huge estates, and went to dinner and, you know, had these amazing experiences where he took me out to this little island in the middle of the loch that his family had begun on in, in the 1200s when Robert the Bruce first gave them the, the title of this 7,000 acres.
• 35:20
  Sarah Clutton: And he took me out to this crannog, which is this tiny little island covered in reeds, and the ruins of the original house were.
• 35:26
  Sarah Clutton: And, you know, I got these incredible experiences because when you're writing a book, people are so interested to help you.
• 35:33
  Sarah Clutton: And so you k- you find yourself in these incredible situations.
• 35:36
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 35:36
  Sarah Clutton: So yeah, I've, I've got those lovely stories for my next book.
• 35:40
  Sarah Clutton: I just have to work out what the story is, which is what I'm rambling with at the moment.
• 35:45
  Tina Strachan: I'm sure it'll come to you.
• 35:46
  Tina Strachan: But yeah, all that history, especially when you travel to those countries overseas, just so much history, isn't it?
• 35:51
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm that unfolds and yeah, just- Yeah, yeah you know, different, uh, landscapes even is just so-
• 35:57
  Sarah Clutton: It's so interesting.
• 35:58
  Sarah Clutton: And if you're interested, like, I mean, I'm a little bit interested in witchcraft in terms of...
• 36:02
  Sarah Clutton: You know, I didn't really put it in The Bookshop of Buried Pasts, but I put a little bit of, of my inter- vague interest in Celtic mythology through it.
• 36:10
  Sarah Clutton: But, um, it's only a tiny thread, right?
• 36:12
  Sarah Clutton: But you get to play with stuff and you- Mm-hmm can if you want
• 36:15
  Tina Strachan: to.
• 36:15
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 36:15
  Sarah Clutton: And I, in the final pages of The Bookshop of Buried Pasts, we fly to Lerwick in Scotland, in Shetland, the...
• 36:24
  Sarah Clutton: And in Scotland.
• 36:26
  Sarah Clutton: And a tiny island of Shetland which is famous because of Ann Cleeves possibly or, all of those books.
• 36:33
  Sarah Clutton: And- I, I put into that book one of my other protagonists was ha- has, had been quite influenced by her family history.
• 36:45
  Sarah Clutton: So there's a lot of There's a thread about somebody looking for their family history in this book, and she does a DNA test, and she discovers that her four times great-grandfather was a real man called Sa- Samuel Tulloch, who was a ship's captain who sailed his ship, the North Mabyn, from Shetland in Scotland to Launceston in Tasmania.
• 37:09
  Sarah Clutton: And and because I'm originally Tasmanian, I, that interests me.
• 37:13
  Sarah Clutton: And then so I, uh, I gave my protagonist this man as her four times great-grandfather, and his name was Samuel Tulloch.
• 37:24
  Sarah Clutton: And a few generations before Samuel Tulloch- was born in Shetland.
• 37:31
  Sarah Clutton: The last woman to be burned as a witch at the, in Shetland was a woman called Barbara Tulloch.
• 37:38
  Sarah Clutton: So they shared a surname, so I figured they were probably quite you know, there was probably a big chance on a tiny island with a tiny population that they were somehow related.
• 37:47
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 37:47
  Sarah Clutton: Anyway, but Samuel Tulloch is actually my four times great-grandfather, right?
• 37:51
  Sarah Clutton: So I figure I'd really like to have some connection to the, the last beautiful herbalist woman and her daughter, Helen, who were burned as witches, because I feel I wanna tell their story.
• 38:02
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 38:02
  Sarah Clutton: And so I just mention them because, you know, that's a bit of fun too and it's interest- Yeah I really want to bring, I wanna bring, Because in, in the story we have a herbalist.
• 38:12
  Sarah Clutton: Phyllida Banks is a herbalist- Yeah as well as a book dealer, and her grandmother was a herbalist.
• 38:17
  Sarah Clutton: And so I bring all these little threads in because it's interesting to me, and I'm interested in- What history does through the generations.
• 38:25
  Sarah Clutton: And,
• 38:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah
• 38:25
  Sarah Clutton: anyway, that was me.
• 38:26
  Sarah Clutton: It
• 38:26
  Tina Strachan: gives you a chance to play with it, doesn't it, and explore it.
• 38:29
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 38:29
  Tina Strachan: And you clearly have some connection there that you probably didn't even realize, but-
• 38:33
  Sarah Clutton: Exa- Who knows?
• 38:35
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 38:36
  Sarah Clutton: But, but you know, S- S- Samuel Tulloch was an interesting find for me in the d- in the family history, and I thought,"Oh, well, that goes back to Shetland." And I really feel drawn to explore that area of, of the world.
• 38:50
  Sarah Clutton: I've, I've been there a few times, and I really find it interesting.
• 38:54
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 38:54
  Sarah Clutton: And, uh, why not bring those little threads into a book?
• 38:58
  Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
• 38:59
  Tina Strachan: Well, it's your book.
• 39:00
  Tina Strachan: You can do whatever you
• 39:01
  Sarah Clutton: want.
• 39:02
  Sarah Clutton: It's like there aren't that many rules, right?
• 39:03
  Sarah Clutton: It's a bit worrying.
• 39:04
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 39:05
  Tina Strachan: Well, you can...
• 39:05
  Tina Strachan: That, that's the, you know, the beauty of it, isn't it?
• 39:08
  Tina Strachan: It's fiction, and you can in- write about- Yeah whatever you want and make it yours.
• 39:11
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 39:11
  Tina Strachan: I mean, you have to enjoy writing it, right?
• 39:13
  Tina Strachan: And it's gotta be authentic to you, which it is if you include all those- Yeah all those- A few little things bits and pieces that you- That
• 39:19
  Sarah Clutton: I'm fond
• 39:19
  Tina Strachan: of yeah, that you're interested in.
• 39:21
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 39:22
  Tina Strachan: Okay, Sarah, so when you're not traveling the world and doing your research- Yeah can you tell us about a normal day in, uh, the life of Sarah Clutton?
• 39:30
  Tina Strachan: Is there a normal day in the life?
• 39:31
  Tina Strachan: Well- What's...
• 39:33
  Tina Strachan: How does it work for you?
• 39:34
  Sarah Clutton: Um.
• 39:34
  Sarah Clutton: How
• 39:34
  Tina Strachan: do you get it all done?
• 39:35
  Tina Strachan: Well,
• 39:36
  Sarah Clutton: I'm not very good at doing a- you know, any kind of normal day because I'm just so scatterbrained.
• 39:44
  Sarah Clutton: And so I would normally get up and sit down and make a coffee and then try and write, and often just stare at the screen and look at my Instagram instead.
• 39:52
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 39:53
  Sarah Clutton: So I need to work that out.
• 39:55
  Sarah Clutton: But, um-
• 39:56
  Tina Strachan: Get rid of the Instagram.
• 39:57
  Tina Strachan: It's hard though, isn't it?
• 39:58
  Sarah Clutton: I know.
• 39:59
  Sarah Clutton: I need to do that.
• 40:00
  Sarah Clutton: But no, I, I do a little bit of other sort of copywriting, although that's really dried up since AI a lot.
• 40:07
  Tina Strachan: Oh, has it?
• 40:08
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, I bet.
• 40:09
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 40:09
  Sarah Clutton: And I'm sort of interested, and I do a tiny little bit of work with social impact for our company- Mm um, that we have.
• 40:18
  Sarah Clutton: But I don't have a normal writing day.
• 40:22
  Sarah Clutton: It's just sit down and try and do a few sessions of writing, and if I'm lucky, I might get- some words written.
• 40:33
  Sarah Clutton: But often, you know, like for example my book that's due in in January, in, in terms of a draft is due in in January, and then I guess we'll hopefully get a few structural edits going on.
• 40:45
  Sarah Clutton: I've had that book, since September I've had a You know, I was lucky to get a contract for another two books.
• 40:54
  Sarah Clutton: And I've had that, that idea that I pitched in September with no real idea about what it was gonna be, but it was in Scotland and then we, there's an s- Tasmanian element and a house and all of this stuff.
• 41:07
  Sarah Clutton: And, um, and for many months I didn't write any words exactly.
• 41:12
  Sarah Clutton: I just threw ideas around with my sister who, as I said, has good ideas.
• 41:18
  Sarah Clutton: And I wrote synopsis and then I thought,"That's terrible and that's ridiculous and that's stupid." And then I, you know, after a month of working on one synopsis I'd change it and then I'd have all these characters that no longer worked as that, in that way.
• 41:34
  Sarah Clutton: Maybe I'd change them, they'd work that way, and I write another synopsis.
• 41:38
  Sarah Clutton: You know, they might be 10,000 word synopsis or something.
• 41:42
  Sarah Clutton: You know, just- Oh,
• 41:42
  Tina Strachan: wow.
• 41:43
  Tina Strachan: Yeah
• 41:44
  Sarah Clutton: sort of, or 5,000 words or something, just-
• 41:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah
• 41:46
  Sarah Clutton: rubbishy sort of ideas that I put into some sort of form.
• 41:50
  Sarah Clutton: And then I throw that one out and then I start again.
• 41:54
  Sarah Clutton: And then I thought,"Oh, God.
• 41:56
  Sarah Clutton: I've got to start writing this book." So I, in about March or, yeah, I started writing some words, and I had about 10, 15,000 words by the time I went to Scotland in mid-April.
• 42:09
  Sarah Clutton: And, you know, at that stage you've got eight months left to write the book, and you're going to do your research.
• 42:16
  Sarah Clutton: And then I got back from Scotland and I threw those 15 word, thousand words out, and I s- wrote a new synopsis.
• 42:21
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 42:22
  Sarah Clutton: And then I've started writing that, that book.
• 42:27
  Sarah Clutton: They're all kind of vaguely related.
• 42:29
  Sarah Clutton: You know, I've got this one character and I've got this one setting and I've got this one opening scene, but how is that gonna work with all the other characters and- Mm-hmm these two settings in Tasmania and in Scotland, how are they gonna work together and really would they W- that's ridiculous what you've come up with, Sarah.
• 42:45
  Sarah Clutton: That doesn't work.
• 42:47
  Sarah Clutton: Anyway, so now I'm about I don't even know how much I'm in.
• 42:51
  Sarah Clutton: I may be 15, another 15,000 or 20,000 words in.
• 42:57
  Sarah Clutton: And that's going badly, but I am really-
• 43:02
  Tina Strachan: Is this another synopsis or you've just started writing?
• 43:04
  Sarah Clutton: I think, no, these are the words of this- Yeah latest synopsis.
• 43:08
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 43:08
  Sarah Clutton: And I think I'll just keep going with it because it comes to a point where you just have to go,"Stop it."
• 43:12
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 43:13
  Sarah Clutton: Keep writing this.
• 43:14
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 43:14
  Sarah Clutton: It's probably terrible, but when you get to the end of a whole first draft- you're gonna rewrite the whole thing anyway, and it'll-
• 43:21
  Tina Strachan: That's right
• 43:21
  Sarah Clutton: be something else.
• 43:21
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 43:22
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 43:23
  Sarah Clutton: I, it, I'm
• 43:24
  Tina Strachan: just, um- You could come up with a synopsis that you think is great and works perfectly, and then you can start writing it, and then it all just changes direction, and you have no control over that.
• 43:33
  Tina Strachan: So it is hard, isn't it?
• 43:34
  Tina Strachan: It's trying to find that balance between the two.
• 43:37
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 43:37
  Sarah Clutton: And it...
• 43:37
  Sarah Clutton: You know, you've gotta be prepared, I think, as a writer to sit in the discomfort of your, um, own company, which is boring because I bore myself a lot, and I think,"Oh, this is boring.
• 43:49
  Sarah Clutton: I don't have any colleagues." So that's boring as a writer because- Mm I mean, I mean, I don't mind being alone in my head, but it can be tedious, and you do need to get out there.
• 44:04
  Sarah Clutton: And so I do go for a walk and look at all the interesting people or...
• 44:08
  Sarah Clutton: So I'm, I'm in Melbourne for a few months at the moment, so, in the inner city, and so I get to kind of look at all the interesting people who don't usually hang out in the village where I live in the Southern Highlands, and that is giving me a little bit of impetus for my 2030 book, which sounds a long way away, but I'm, I've got my-
• 44:25
  Tina Strachan: Sounds like a really long way away.
• 44:27
  Sarah Clutton: I know, but like- Wow it, it will come because then when I hand this in January, I'm meant to be starting that one, and I've...
• 44:33
  Sarah Clutton: Thinking that's why I'm on this gap year in Melbourne to-
• 44:36
  Tina Strachan: Yeah get
• 44:37
  Sarah Clutton: some ideas for that book.
• 44:38
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 44:38
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 44:39
  Sarah Clutton: You gotta just be prepared to remember that you hate sitting with your stupid head, and then you've just gotta do it anyway.
• 44:45
  Sarah Clutton: That's kind of the trick, I think.
• 44:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 44:47
  Tina Strachan: And I think that's the s- that is the same for all jobs.
• 44:51
  Tina Strachan: There are things that you love about them, but there's things that you don't like doing about them.
• 44:55
  Tina Strachan: Every job, has its fun things, like- Yeah.
• 44:57
  Tina Strachan: For sure when the...
• 44:58
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, like when the words flow, that's great, but then the actual work of making them sound half decent and- Oh, exactly making sure that all the loose ends are tied up can get quite hard, can't it?
• 45:10
  Sarah Clutton: It can.
• 45:10
  Sarah Clutton: But that's, as you say, it's just a job, and it's a fun job, and it doesn't pay very well, but we just do it anyway.
• 45:17
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, because we can't, hey.
• 45:20
  Tina Strachan: Well, yeah, speaking of that, and we are very lucky to have that job a lot of our listeners are emerging authors or aspiring authors looking to be published.
• 45:30
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 45:30
  Tina Strachan: Do you...
• 45:31
  Tina Strachan: What are your top tips, now that you've been on this publishing journey for a little while now, what are your top tips for aspiring authors or, or people that are wanting to get published?
• 45:43
  Sarah Clutton: Well I've, I've done lots of courses, which helps you to, If you're like me and you sort of get overwhelmed by all the possibilities, and you also don't, you don't know what you don't know until you've done a bit, bit of work on craft, I guess.
• 45:59
  Sarah Clutton: So you know, I think it does help to do a course if you are coming at it from a background where you haven't studied how to write.
• 46:10
  Sarah Clutton: So I've done lots of writing courses, novel writing courses and so on, and other, other writing courses.
• 46:17
  Sarah Clutton: I think that's very, very helpful because it also helps you to get comfortable in the, uh, idea that someone can critique your work.
• 46:27
  Sarah Clutton: Unless you let Unless you get very good at letting people critique your work and become very open to that and then you're not probably going to improve as quickly as you might.
• 46:39
  Sarah Clutton: And also when you start working with your publisher, which you will if you keep going for long enough then, they It's gonna be a much more enjoyable experience for both of you if you are very open to critique.
• 46:53
  Sarah Clutton: Mm-hmm.
• 46:53
  Sarah Clutton: So, yeah.
• 46:55
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 46:55
  Sarah Clutton: I think do a course.
• 46:56
  Tina Strachan: And I think a p- publishers appreciate when you're open to critique too, because-
• 47:00
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah
• 47:01
  Tina Strachan: it is part of the process, and it does have to happen.
• 47:03
  Tina Strachan: And yes, if you can, go through the process beforehand so that you know how to take on board, comments and feedback, then I think that that's- Yeah they would appreciate that a lot.
• 47:14
  Sarah Clutton: Exactly.
• 47:15
  Sarah Clutton: Exactly.
• 47:15
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 47:16
  Sarah Clutton: So that's a good tip.
• 47:17
  Sarah Clutton: And the other thing is well I mean I didn't really start writing novels until I was in my mid to late 40s because I thought I could never do it.
• 47:28
  Sarah Clutton: Because I have that sort of brain that is uh, scrambled and doesn't remember things.
• 47:35
  Sarah Clutton: Like, literally doesn't remember things at all.
• 47:38
  Sarah Clutton: And and also a little bit of, you know, even, uh, even facial blindness, I have a bit of that going on.
• 47:44
  Sarah Clutton: I, I can't remember things and I A- and you know, I, I find it very difficult to hold onto a thread of anything.
• 47:53
  Sarah Clutton: And so when you ask me what a novel was about or if I've read it, I probably won't remember reading it.
• 47:58
  Sarah Clutton: And if I do remember reading it, I won't remember what it was about.
• 48:01
  Sarah Clutton: I might remember the feeling of it or if I thought it was good.
• 48:04
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 48:04
  Sarah Clutton: But I won't remember the story, and I won't remember any detail that happened in it probably.
• 48:10
  Sarah Clutton: And so the I don't say that lightly, it's, it's really true.
• 48:16
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 48:16
  Sarah Clutton: I have a terrible memory.
• 48:17
  Sarah Clutton: And so I thought when I started writing that I would start with picture books, because I could re- remember 400 words, you know?
• 48:26
  Sarah Clutton: I could remember that arc.
• 48:27
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 48:28
  Sarah Clutton: Um, and that wasn't so hard for someone like me who doesn't hold onto information very easily.
• 48:34
  Sarah Clutton: I thought,"Well, there's no way I could write a novel," because I just finished a novel yesterday, and I can't tell you what was in that novel really.
• 48:42
  Sarah Clutton: I can- I can't remember how, how that, they got from there to there.
• 48:45
  Sarah Clutton: How could I possibly write a novel?
• 48:48
  Sarah Clutton: So anyway, I w- I, I failed dismally at picture books, then I failed at middle grade, then I failed at, anything to do with shorter things which I thought I might be able to do because I, of my memory and my brain.
• 49:01
  Sarah Clutton: I failed at all of those dismally, and I spent many years trying and trying and failing and failing to get those published.
• 49:09
  Sarah Clutton: And so eventually I, I was left with only the novel that I hadn't tackled And I thought,"Well, Sarah, if you want to be a writer, and you think that's your best skill in life," which, you know, I was g- good at writing things.
• 49:25
  Sarah Clutton: I was a lawyer and I could write sentences that were nice, although you had to re- unlearn being a lawyer to be a novelist, to be frank.
• 49:31
  Sarah Clutton: You have to unlearn all the things you learn.
• 49:33
  Sarah Clutton: I can
• 49:33
  Tina Strachan: imagine.
• 49:34
  Sarah Clutton: But I thought,"Then I'm gonna have to work out how to write a novel," and, you know, there's gotta be people like me who've done this before.
• 49:41
  Sarah Clutton: There's gotta be ways to do it.
• 49:43
  Sarah Clutton: So then at the age of, I don't know, 46 or something, I thought I'll just start writing a novel." There's gotta be ways that I can write it down that I remember what I've written.
• 49:53
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 49:54
  Sarah Clutton: And there'll be ways forward.
• 49:56
  Sarah Clutton: And so I started writing it, and I got 40,000 words in, and then realized I had absolutely no clue what I was doing.
• 50:03
  Sarah Clutton: I didn't know anything about structure, I didn't know anything about- what you had to put in a novel.
• 50:09
  Sarah Clutton: I didn't know about turning points, or I didn't know about anything.
• 50:12
  Sarah Clutton: So then I did a, you know, then I got an email from the Australian Writers' Centre, I think at that moment that I'd had this revelation that I was useless and couldn't do it.
• 50:21
  Sarah Clutton: And I signed up, and then I had a novel written at the end of another six months.
• 50:25
  Sarah Clutton: So that was wild.
• 50:27
  Tina Strachan: Cool.
• 50:27
  Tina Strachan: What course was that?
• 50:28
  Sarah Clutton: Uh, that was the-
• 50:30
  Tina Strachan: The write a- Write
• 50:31
  Sarah Clutton: Your Novel Write.
• 50:31
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah Write
• 50:32
  Tina Strachan: Your Novel.
• 50:32
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 50:32
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 50:33
  Tina Strachan: So, and it, like, did what it says on the packet, right?
• 50:35
  Tina Strachan: Like, you wrote your novel.
• 50:38
  Sarah Clutton: I wrote my novel.
• 50:39
  Sarah Clutton: That's cool.
• 50:39
  Sarah Clutton: It was sort of at that desperate moment in my mid-life where I thought,"What is my life about?
• 50:45
  Sarah Clutton: What- Mm what on earth have I achieved?" Because I'd come to the end of my sort of heavy duty mothering years, where my children were not needing me as much.
• 50:56
  Sarah Clutton: I mean, obviously they did need me a lot, but that physical amount of supervision you need to do- Yeah was at an end.
• 51:03
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 51:03
  Sarah Clutton: And I thought Sarah, this is, it's like do or die.
• 51:06
  Sarah Clutton: You've gotta do it." And so I did it.
• 51:09
  Sarah Clutton: I did it.
• 51:11
  Sarah Clutton: It was crazy.
• 51:11
  Sarah Clutton: And then I got...
• 51:12
  Sarah Clutton: I managed to get, get my first novel published with Bookouture, and that was a two-book deal, so then I had to quickly write another one in six months.
• 51:19
  Sarah Clutton: Oh, my God.
• 51:20
  Sarah Clutton: But I did that, too.
• 51:21
  Sarah Clutton: And it's amazing what you can do- Yeah if you learn the tools and you learn to trust- Mm the process, and you learn to say to yourself, y- just because you can't do it, doesn't...
• 51:33
  Sarah Clutton: haven't done it, and you don't think you can do it, doesn't mean you can't do it.
• 51:35
  Sarah Clutton: Mm.
• 51:36
  Sarah Clutton: You probably can do it.
• 51:37
  Sarah Clutton: Just, you know, learn how to do it.
• 51:40
  Sarah Clutton: So it was like that growth mindset my teachers were telling my kids at school, you know?
• 51:44
  Sarah Clutton: "Can't do it yet- but you might be able, be able to in the future if you learn." And
• 51:48
  Tina Strachan: at any age, right?
• 51:49
  Tina Strachan: It doesn't matter.
• 51:50
  Sarah Clutton: Any age.
• 51:50
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 51:50
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah.
• 51:50
  Sarah Clutton: Yeah, and then I really wanted to get a, a traditional deal after that.
• 51:55
  Sarah Clutton: And so then I worked and worked and worked and worked, and did another course, and did this and did that, and eventually I got there.
• 52:02
  Sarah Clutton: Yay.
• 52:03
  Tina Strachan: Well, you certainly did.
• 52:05
  Tina Strachan: Um, and congratulations.
• 52:07
  Tina Strachan: Um, The Bookshop of Buried Past, congratulations on it, uh, being launched.
• 52:12
  Tina Strachan: It's very exciting.
• 52:13
  Tina Strachan: And yeah- Really exciting it's clearly all worked very well for you.
• 52:16
  Tina Strachan: Um- Can't tell that you can't remember things at all.
• 52:19
  Sarah Clutton: Oh, thank...
• 52:21
  Sarah Clutton: Oh.
• 52:22
  Sarah Clutton: Well, I didn't remember that you hadn't that, you know, you and I hadn't actually quite sorted out our link this morning, so that was a momentary panic.
• 52:28
  Sarah Clutton: Uh, but yeah.
• 52:29
  Tina Strachan: See?
• 52:29
  Tina Strachan: We get there in the end.
• 52:30
  Tina Strachan: It's totally okay.
• 52:33
  Sarah Clutton: Thank you so much for having me, and, um, hopefully I'll, um...
• 52:36
  Sarah Clutton: I'm looking forward to, um, listening to more of your amazing podcasts.
• 52:41
  Tina Strachan: Aw, thank you.
• 52:42
  Tina Strachan: Thanks so much for coming on.
• 52:43
  Tina Strachan: It was so great to chat to you.
• 52:44
  Tina Strachan: Bye, Sarah.
• 52:45
  Sarah Clutton: Okay.
• 52:45
  Sarah Clutton: Bye, Tina.
• 52:46
  Sarah Clutton: Thanks for having me.
• 52:50
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
• 52:54
  Tina Strachan: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast