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What My Mom Taught Me About Creativity (and Sacrifice) · No Mess, No Magic

• Monica Hay: Hello and welcome to the No Mess No Magic podcast with Monica Haye. I also have a special guest today, my own mom, Stacey Hay. So everybody welcome her. This episode is going to be a hot mess. going to be all over the place. ⁓ just be aware of that. We are going to talk about art from the of somebody who's 67. and has had a long and beautiful relationship with her art in many forms throughout her lifetime. And so I'm gonna hit you with some hard questions. That sounds good. And actually as an artist, I actually go by Stacey Bloomhay, ⁓ just because that's my maiden name and I cherish ⁓ actually my mom and of course my family and my dad, but my mom. ⁓ was creative in her own right while she was raising us. ⁓ For a few years, she was, as we were getting a little older, when I turned like nine, seven, well I would say eight, nine, 10, she was able to paint and do more of her creativity that she wasn't able to do while she was raising all of us. So. I did get to see her do some artwork when she made the time to do it. Yeah. We also just got back from a long, epic trip. So we're a little tired and we both got sick. I'm a little sick. You might even hear my voice. So, but this is just showing up in the mess of life. ⁓ Okay. Let's start with your relationship with your art in the beginning. What drew you to art in the beginning of your life? Probably, I would say, my mom. Your mom? Yeah. And because I did see her do it, and she did, she was a very generous mom in the sense that she tried to allow all of us kids to do things that inspired us. And my brother, you know, he liked rocks, and he, she would let him, she would collect, you know. allow him, they would go to rock shops. Justin? Yeah, Justin. And he's a geologist. rocks? Always. Oh, I didn't know that. My brother Stan always liked little bugs and animals. He became a zoologist, but he actually ended up being a scientist, worked at the San Francisco Science Academy, things like that. we were very lucky to have a mom that allowed us to pursue our interests. So that was pretty awesome. And then as far as art goes, I just thought it was really fun. I loved making things. That was what I was best at. I was not so good in math, English, science, know, other kinds of things. So I think that that... part of me blossomed ⁓ I really enjoyed that ⁓ ⁓ helped me balance myself out. ⁓ I think that was ⁓ spark ⁓ of wanting to be an artist. Yeah, we all, we're both suck at math. Yes. We're not. And then people are like, well, you always learn. And I'm like, I don't ⁓ fucking to learn. ⁓ I don't care. Has your relationship to art changed over time? if so, how has it changed? I would say as a girl, I wasn't as critical of myself. And as we grow older, we tend to be, you know, like in high school, we start getting ⁓ probably more critical of ourselves. ⁓ Some people don't have that, but I did. And also in college, I always enjoyed it. I was very lucky to major in art. I feel that that was a very important part of my life. But I think I am now, I'm still critical of myself. And it's something that I just have to move forward with all the time. I have to tell myself, why are you being hard on yourself? Yeah. Was that something you started when you were in high school or was it later in life? It also might've been because we were supposed to always succeed. Yeah. We were taught that we had to succeed. Right. And whatever we did by more like my dad. Yeah. mean, he was like that. But he was a military dad. We were his troops. We were supposed to succeed at whatever we did. then my dad, your husband, he was a bit critical, I would say. He was more nitpicky. Well, he was critical of himself and he was also critical of others. Yeah. And so he would definitely nitpick some of your work, I would say. And sometimes, he was kind of like the manager of the art. of the house, you know what mean? Like he would kind of decide stuff. he kind of took over. He did. He did. He took over space, he took over time, he took over. He did. ⁓ But he was a very driven individual and he had to do it and I get it. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. And so it's interesting because it sounds like you're critical. voice was kind of what changed for you the most over your lifetime. How have you overcome the critical voice? I think what my process now is, I used to go, ⁓ why can't I just make this the best I can do it right now? And over time, I realized it's just one step at a time. You look at the work, whatever you're working on, whether it's a painting or a print or some kind of process, ⁓ know, mosaic, whatever, I've done lots of different kinds of things. ⁓ I would say now I know that if I feel like I'm getting a little stuck, I just go, okay, what is bothering me with this right now? What can I fix right at this moment? And then I go, ⁓ okay, so I can do this. And that leads to the next step. And so I'm not so critical of, well, you know, why can't I get this to work the way exactly like it should or whatever. I'm not as critical now, I just know that it's a process. It's much more of a process than I ever thought. that's what's actually really special is the process of creating, of actually at times you just get into the zone. I love painting sometimes and you just get into the zone. or carving on wood, or you just do it and you get lost in it and it's wonderful. It's kind of like the spark of the universe is going through you. Yeah, it's interesting because the writers that I talked to, they would say the exact same thing about when they have a critical voice and they just want it to be good. They wanna put it down and have it be right immediately. but they have to accept that the process will get them there and it might not look how they expect it to look. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's 100 % and that's taken time. And also being, ⁓ I had also been a teacher. I actually taught art at a state prison in California. And I think I heard so many of my students, which were all men, ⁓ They were so critical of themselves and then I realized, ⁓ my gosh, we don't have to do that. We don't need to be critical. I said, just do one step at a time. they had probably had been criticized or they'd made some major mistakes to land them in prison to begin with. ⁓ And so they were very critical and that was one thing I tried to. teach them which actually taught me. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like teaching other people has taught me as well. So I have to ask you about some of the sacrifices you've made because you made a lot, right? You were mom and you made sacrifices also for dad because my dad, most of you won't know, but he was very ill for a long time. So you spent a lot of your life taking care of other people. How did that impact your art? I would say that this is what would happen to me. I would get to a critical crisis point of needing to create, otherwise I'm a fucking bit. It's true. And so I really would get to that point where I would feel it inside of me, like I have to do some artwork otherwise. And I actually feel that right now. Because we're on a trip and we didn't have any. And I've been in construction mode of my space and our living space and things like that. So I haven't been able to be at all as creative as I'd like to be. And so it's kind of, get to this point, it's like, no, I better do this or I'm not gonna be okay. I need to get those feelings out, I need to get those emotions out, I need to create. And it is therapy for me. And I will say, when I did work at the prison, I was raising a family and I was taking care of your dad off and on, depending on what was going on. There were times where it was like, then when I did create it had to be like in a fury way. It was much more... ⁓ released, more of a release and not so much of a process because I had to do it. I needed emotionally to get it out. ⁓ interesting. to get out the pent up, whatever angst I was dealing with, things that, you know, because it was a difficult place to work. ⁓ Then your dad had some He had PTSD from being a Vietnam veteran, things like that. so, that's, I would, actually some of the best things were mono-type printmaking. And that was a really good way for me to release that energy. Yeah, and then you made some art. I remember your old boss who was awful to you. You make some art of that. And it always made you feel a lot better. ⁓ man. Let it go. Let all that angst go. Work it out. Yeah, ⁓ I made my boss pretty funny. You did, you did. And it was, he made my life miserable at work. And then I took that home and I'd think about it all the time. It really bugging me. And then I realized, you know what? I need to make some artwork about this. And it made me feel so much better. Yeah. Don't piss off artists or writers because they'll put you in their work. What did that feel like at the time versus how you see it now when it comes to taking care of others and how you made art throughout that time in your life? Yeah, was more of a... I wasn't so nitpicky. I just had to create. I say I'm a little bit more process oriented now, but I really, I love the process of getting into the zone, of doing certain kinds of repetitive things that make it come to fruition. It's a different kind of process in some ways. Yeah, how did it change between when you retired or before you retired and after you retired? I would say it was much, had to be more fast. It had to be more... spontaneous because I didn't have a lot of time. ⁓ But as when I did retire from that job, because actually the arts position was cut during all the budget cuts, so I had to switch over to another job, which was very intense. ⁓ And I actually couldn't, because the job required me to be very analytical, it was really hard for me to make creative. I didn't paint during that time, I only did monoprints. Because I really didn't have it in me to do it, and as soon as I retired, then I could get back to painting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when you were working at the counselor job, you had to be analytical. ⁓ What was it that made it so that you couldn't, you said it was analytical, what else was it that made it so you couldn't really paint? Was it just that... Because we were working on the rock garden. Yes, I was working on the rock garden. I was moving tons of rocks with my husband who had to create this beautiful, incredible rock garden. So we moved tons of rocks. And then he built these sculptures. And I helped mix up concrete and mortar and wash off rocks. I I love rocks. So it's not like I don't. I think they're fabulous. They're the earth. they're grounding. But when I did, when I was a counselor, I had to just make monotype prints and I actually didn't make very many that I was really happy with the final ending of it. So in the end, I ended up cutting a lot of those up and making collages with them into other pieces that I really love. So it was just a part of the process. Well, a lot of your process throughout your life was helping dad with his process. Yes. Yeah. He always wrangled me in somehow. But he was always doing something very creative and new, like paper making, or we get into making mosaics, or we get into ⁓ casting the tables. I'd help him. He would cut all the pieces of granite or marble and put a design, and then I'd help him cast them. I was mixing the concrete, ⁓ I mean all these different things. I learned You learned some cool stuff. It made it so that you were doing what he was into a little bit more than what you wanted to do. Yeah. And so do you ever wish that you'd then put your foot down and said, I'm going to go make my own art today? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you you you're go to the flow person. I am. Yeah, and that can be a blessing and a curse. Right, and I tend to not want to create... ⁓ Oh, negativity? Conflict. Yeah, or conflict, yeah. And so I'll, you know, and I was raised, I was raised in a military family. My mom was very subservient to my dad, and that's how I was raised. And so it's taken me a long time. And actually, I think one of the reasons why I ended up working at the prison is because I had to be a stronger person, and I had to deal with lots of people in authority, and then I was able to do that. and I was able to work through some of that process. ⁓ You know, guess life teaches us lots of lessons. I know. Sometimes I'm like, why isn't it just sunshine and rainbows? So did you ever grieve a version of your life where art came first? ⁓ It's been very interesting because my sense, you know... My husband and your dad has passed away. I've met a new ⁓ artist, my partner, ⁓ and he sacrificed having a family so that he could be an artist. So it's very interesting to see art dynamics are so different. I really didn't make a living as an artist, even though I did make a living as being a teaching art for over, ⁓ I don't know. A lot of years. ⁓ Altogether, I think it was a good 26 years or something. Some of it was just part time. But I did work at the prison full time for 26 years. And 17 of those years were full time as I was running an arts program. And I was also teaching visual art. ⁓ So it's a very different path. when you have children. I even have stepchildren from his prior marriage that we helped raise. so it was a lot. I'm grateful for the lessons I have learned, but I also wish I had been a little bit more aggressive in my need for being creative. Well, I always tell my clients, have art dates with your kids. Yes. Like, you know, like I could write a little short story with you when I was 10 and you could paint, you know, or something like that. Yes, absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah. I think we should have, you know, looking back, I wish I'd done that more, but we did. We did do some paper making. We did do ceramics. We did do, ⁓ you know, something like with Garin we did do some... printmaking and things like that. Yeah. But yeah, you know, but I should have done it more. I look back and there are some regrets on that aspect of it. ⁓ Yeah, and it's partially because your dad was extremely needy. Yes. Yeah. Let's talk about some of the wisdom. So, If you could go back, is there anything you would do differently when it comes to your art? Whether that's type of art you would make or what you would do with your time making art, things like that. What would you have done? I think I would have been... I wish I had been better at my time management. Okay. What do mean? Made it make time to do, this is my day or my hours, whatever it was, instead of frivolous things. Right. I wish I had really sat down and just done it. I mean, ⁓ I did do a lot because I your dad do a lot of his things. ⁓ You were kind of the manual labor behind a lot of the work that dad did. Yes. I worked alongside him. And so I helped him, and I'm grateful for that. I mean, he did create some awesome things. ⁓ It wasn't necessarily my vision. Yeah, exactly. So it's, and that's somewhat regretting, but at the same time I learned a lot. So, ⁓ and we were very lucky that we were able to work together at points in time at the prison. So we were really good role models within the prison system because we did work together so well. Yeah. That we We helped them make some wonderful projects. Yeah, that's pretty cool. And so I really feel that we were really good role models because a lot of the students and the incarcerated that I worked with had come from very difficult families that didn't or one or the other family member, you know, there wasn't a dad or a mom or whatever in the wasn't any help or support. Yeah. I think we were really good role models that way, because we did really do some awesome things, a ⁓ lot of really good projects, community projects and things. What would you have cut out? You mentioned frivolous stuff. What would you have tried to stop doing? I would say turn off the TV because your dad liked the noise. He did. He liked the noise of the TV, but I get sucked into it. Yeah, I get very distracted by Very distracted. but ADHD, he wasn't ADHD. He wasn't ADHD. No. And so he wondered why I get sucked into it, but it was like, well, it's on. So I don't have a TV anymore. I don't have a TV. Fuck yeah. And I'm glad because I don't watch it. And if I want to stream something, then I can. But I don't have it on ever. And so now it's just music. And usually it's music that doesn't have lyrics. I love world music that I don't understand what's going on because then it doesn't distract me. Well, it's very peaceful not knowing what the fuck is going on in music. It's like living in the Netherlands. I speak some Dutch, but most of the time, I don't know what the fuck people are talking about. It's actually very peaceful. Because you don't know. So I listen to a lot of African music and, ⁓ Brazilian, I don't know, just a whole range of music where I don't know what the words are, I don't know what they're saying at all. And it's lovely. Yeah. So what do you wish someone had told you about being an artist while also building your family and caring for others? I don't know if anybody really could have told me anything. I think you have to actually experience it. I really didn't. you know, life happens. Yeah. You know, and I fell in love with your dad and I went that direction. He already had three kids and you were young. I was young. And I thought, of course I thought I knew everything. Well, you also had traveled the world many times. Yeah, because my dad had been in the military and he was stationed overseas. So was very lucky to travel at a young age. So I thought I was worldly, but I really didn't know about relationships. He was your first serious relationship. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yeah. So, ⁓ but anyway, I don't regret it because I have you and I your brother and I have my other stepkids and I'm very grateful for what life has taught me and has given me. ⁓ I take it all in and ⁓ I cannot complain. I'm actually very privileged. I've had a college education. I have a home. I have lots of things that a lot of people don't have. We have running water, we food, we have food on the table, things like that. So I'm very grateful. Yeah. what does it actually look like? Like if you had taken more time to make more art, when you were working and stuff? Would it have just been a bit in like five to 10 minutes a day? Just show Yeah, think it would have, yes. Okay. Yeah. I mean, little bits, even little bits. Now I actually have these little sketchbooks that I try to do some in every so often, just like almost every day. Yeah. And just keeping it going. Right. Just doing it. The momentum. The momentum. Yeah. A little bit at a time. And I think that builds on itself. Right. Yeah, because if you lose a momentum, it feels harder to go back to it. Yep. That's interesting. I'm curious, because you've worked with so many people at the prison, why do you think so many people lose touch with their creativity? ⁓ I know for me, at the I noticed, I mean, everybody's always creative, no matter what they're, doesn't matter what they're making, in a sense that whether they're, they used to be able to smoke in prison, so they would have these little bugler, you know, things and they would make things out of them, little frames or, you know, craft things. We were trying to push more of the fine art kind of work, but you know, everybody, I think everybody should be creative. And I think a lot of ⁓ the guys that came through our program maybe had fallen through the cracks a lot, especially in school. They didn't get the help that they needed. And so school became negative. And so ⁓ I feel that everybody should have art all the way from preschool to old folks homes or whatever. It needs to be the whole spectrum. Everybody needs to be creative in whatever they can do at the time. I mean, I've had guys make incredible stuff out of absolutely nothing. You know, cardboard. ⁓ whatever they can get their hands on. And ⁓ it's pretty amazing. ⁓ And I think that it's important for all of us. And ⁓ I think that we have a lot of lost souls that when they do are able to create, it brings real joy. it does. It does. It does. think when I was, what was that? I used to write all the time, I wasn't critical of it at all. And then I think college was where I started getting really critical. And I talk a lot of shit about the education system because there are lot of things to say about it. A lot of things need to be worked on. I am very grateful I have an education. I'm very grateful for my education experience. But my college experience did make my perfectionism so much worse. I've had to unlearn a lot of the lessons to be a novelist and to be a fiction writer that I learned from college. I've had to learn how to let myself write without worrying about what people think. I've had to learn how to write creatively again, which I knew when I was younger. It just came to me. It did. Always. Even when she was little, she would make a bake-whomper story. And it's funny because I remember I would see it in my head so I thought it was real. That's what was happening. I would see these stories in my head, in my imagination, so I thought, ⁓ that's happening. And so I would just tell the story because it was a story that was going on in my own head. And I didn't realize that was not happening. I was like, ⁓ this is what happened. And it wasn't actually happening in real life. But I had to learn how to be creative again. I'm still learning how to be creative after college. A of people, a lot of my clients think like, oh, I didn't study literature. I didn't study these things so I can't do it. And I'm like, if anything, it's a better that you didn't study it. Because if you study the quote unquote masters, then you're going to compare yourself to them a lot, which some people can have a relatively good relationship with studying the masters and working toward that. But for me, it just made me read them and... Either I wouldn't like it or I would just think I could never do this or you end up in this kind of situation where most of what you're writing now isn't meant to sound like Jane Eyre, right? Like it's 2026. And that was a piece that was written a very long time ago. What's getting published now is nothing like that. And I wish I had been like, ⁓ I want to be a fantasy writer. I'll just study fantasy books and write and practice and write some shitty shit so I can get better. But I think a lot of people, they think they need permission to be creative and you fucking don't. Yeah. permission. No, you don't. You can just go for it. You don't need the fucking gatekeepers to tell you you can do it. You don't need a fucking college degree to tell you you can do it. You can just do it. Yeah. But I mean, I think college educations are very important, personally. don't think it is. But that's just me. Well, you grew up in a time when... College wasn't as expensive. No, it wasn't. And it wasn't. No. And nowadays, it's obviously more pricey, at least in the US. In the US, it's toxic because of how it's so expensive. And it should never be this expensive. I think it changed in 1987. Yeah, you guys had already graduated. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or even before that, a little bit. I think. that it's wrong. We should have all this college debt. It's not correct. We should all be moving all of us forward because as a society, we can't move forward unless people are educated. Everybody needs an education. But then at the same time, you don't. But there's a lot of things that can be education. Yes, exactly. it's a trade school or... whatever it is that interests you. That should be available to everybody. Exactly. And what you're good at is and promote that and to allow your... People should be allowed to have that education to help them, you know, if you want to be an electrician or a plumber or... whatever it is that you like to do and make a living that can help our society as a whole. Well, I think it's interesting because when I studied, I often wish I had just studied creative writing ⁓ because what I did, and I posted about this on Instagram ⁓ maybe a month ago now, I did what I thought would be impressive. Because all my life I was a dumb kid. I wasn't necessarily the worst, but I had issues in my education. You guys had me tested. I can't remember what grade I was. Sixth grade. Sixth grade. And I wasn't diagnosed with anything at the time. But I was not the smartest kid on the block. Well, you just had to learn a different way and the school wasn't teaching all of the different ways that people need to learn. No. Hopefully they're getting better at that. But I doubt it with what's going on with our current We won't go into that. Never mind. You can go on a rage about what's going on in the US right now. and you know, I would say that comes from my great grandmother who was a women's suffragette and got Americans, women, she helped get us the right to vote. And then she went around the world for women's rights. And so I feel like I have that in me, that we should all want to help everybody thrive. Everybody thrive. Everybody. And there is no reason why that shouldn't be the case. Exactly. What were we talking about before? Oh my God, what were we talking about? Well, was saying that, oh yeah, I had studied English literature, it was because I have been made to feel stupid all my life. Not from you guys, you guys were wonderful, but my peers, the education system in general, you know, and I was often just seen as not smart enough, you know, made fun of. I was bullied a lot when I was younger. And then finally, when I started blossoming in college and I got accepted to Berkeley, It was like, suddenly people took me seriously and people looked at me with respect and that was very addictive. For some people, they don't care what people think of them, but I fucking do care, which I hate. I hate that I care. And so suddenly being respected, just saying, I go to this certain college, made people look at me like I was smart. And so I chose that instead of studying creative writing at a different college, because that wouldn't have been as prestigious. And I chased that. more than I chased what I actually wanted to do in my life. Well, I think it was a, you thought that you would learn that there. Yeah. I think that that's, you know, we think that sometimes we're gonna get a different lesson than we actually do. Right. And so maybe it's not, you didn't get what you really needed, but I think you also got a foundation that was good, but it- it was ⁓ somewhat different. Different from what I wanted. you wanted. maybe a different school would have been better for you. Or if they had had a creative writing program there. they didn't. They had one, but you had to apply for it and I wasn't interested in it because I was writing fucking fantasy novels. And a lot of programs, I don't know if you know this as much, a of English literature programs and creative writing programs are fucking assholes toward for genre literature. They're just fucking assholes. Like Sarah J. Maas, who you don't know, but is very big in the fantasy community. She was talking on a podcast recently about how she had an interview with like an MFA program. And when she said she wrote fantasy, the director went, ⁓ I put a gag. Yeah, acted like she was gagging, which is just fucking disgusting. Like that's just not okay behavior. to do in an interview for an MFA. And that's one of the reasons I wasn't interested in doing creative writing, because I didn't want to be told, you can't write this because it's not real literature. ⁓ And so in some ways, that was kind of the reason I chose not to study it there, because I didn't think that what I wrote would be accepted. And that's kind of still the case. I wrote a piece about why romanticity is valid, and I got people telling me, grow the fuck up and... It's all fantasy smut and porn and all these idiots in my comments just saying the most fucking absurd things. Well, I think that your writing is probably way more creative than lot of the other writing. I'm going to have you delete that part. I think all writing is wonderful. Yes, And that people should write whatever they want. But don't poo-poo on other people's shit. ⁓ for art too. I mean, you know, we can be very critical of other artists and what they do. And it's just not for you. And I think that our society tends to be very, well, especially in America, we're very judgmental because of, probably because of capitalism. don't know. I don't know exactly why we're so judgmental. Yeah, I don't get it. I've thought about this a lot. You know, I thought about like why, because when I was... studying at Berkeley, I would say I'm studying English Lit and people would say, how are you gonna get a job? That was like the first thing most people would ask me. I got to the point where just said, if they said, are you gonna do with your degree? I said, I was just gonna hang on the wall. Like, cause that was so sick of answering that question. And I think society doesn't treat artists like they're real. Oh yeah. Well, also, you know, there are other countries that actually- Fucking respect them. Yes, I actually respect artists. They actually think of them as national treasures. And I'm sad to say that America doesn't. Not at all. But that's not everybody. I don't want to generalize because there are some incredibly brilliant people all over America that are doing really incredibly creative things. So I look all the time and I am just like, ⁓ my god, this is wonderful. And so we just have to focus on that and not be so negative about, you know, I mean, it's hard when we've had our experiences that have been negative towards us. But at the same time, I want to turn it around and go, we know there's, America has allowed a lot of creativity and a lot more so than in other places around the world. And so I don't want to, keep bashing America because we've been allowed to have a lot of freedoms that a lot of people don't have. That's true, that's true. So I am very grateful for where I've come from and I'm hoping to move all of us forward. If each of us is doing that the best they can, then more power to us in the creativity. Because it's everywhere in so many things that we do. Right. You know, so many people are incredibly creative and it's fun. I just love artists and musicians and writers and theater people and... All of it. All of it. You know, because there's some awesome things happening all over. to Flamenco dancing. were in Barcelona. It was incredible. It was beautiful. And the music nowadays. Just so many different things and the theater and... Yeah, I mean, it's pretty amazing. is amazing. Let me add, let's switch gears. So what was it like raising a daughter who also became a creative? Obviously I'm a writer. You're a visual artist. So it's a bit different. I would say I'm so grateful because I am not a writer at all. And I'm very grateful that you are and that you're thriving. And ⁓ so I'm very so glad about people being creative because I think that's, actually I think that comes from within us. It's in our soul. It feeds us. It's art feeds the soul, whatever art you do. It's whether it's visual, literary, media, performance, ⁓ all of it. And so I think that feeds us. I think that as humans, that we come together, it creates community, it creates bonds, creates ⁓ sharing the love of being human. Well, also you have a son who's also a writer, which is really funny. He's got two writers. Yeah, and I'm not at all. And you're so different in how Yeah, we are different. So different in your perspective. I really feel that you're both doing wonderful work. I'm so glad that you're helping others. I think that's awesome because I feel very good about what I've done to help other people. I think that's been an important part of my life. I look back at it now go, ⁓ yeah. I did help a lot of people be creative and encourage them to do that. I had someone, he goes, he won a first prize for one of his pieces that he'd done and he sent the ribbon home to his mom and she said, he said that was the first time she'd ever said that she was proud of him. Those kinds of things, those kinds of stories where they, where people can give back. I that. So I like, I enjoy being able to do that. And now I get to be more, you know, giving myself. Yes, giving it back to yourself. Right. Yeah. And so I'm super grateful about that. Yeah. Did you ever worry about me being creative or choosing a creative path? Well, I have, you know, I have faith. I do. I have faith actually in the creative process. I think that ⁓ you've done a fabulous job building building a career, doing your writing, teaching others, ⁓ and really helping a lot of people. And so I'm super proud of you. And I was just, you have to do what's in your heart. In your soul. Yeah, but you chose the kind of path of making sure that we were stable in a lot of ways. Well, that's partially because I didn't like not being stable. I don't like it either. I didn't like not having that regular income coming in. I felt I really liked having a regular paycheck. Yeah, I get it. Trust me. And I'm so grateful I was able to do that job. For that long. Yeah, because you were an artist facilitator for 17 years, and then you had to switch to being a counselor. ⁓ And I'm so grateful that they had that job. Now it's... Probably not there. It's ⁓ a very ⁓ different program. It's not what it used to be. It was incredible. The stuff that we were able to accomplish was wonderful. And now actually, luckily, some of the students from that program are now going back in and teaching. They've gotten out and now they're... you know, they're out in the real world and a lot of these, some of the contractors are contracting them to go back in and teach and it's wonderful. That's really cool. It's awesome. Yeah. Like a full circle. Yeah, full circle. I love that. But they do need to put more, I think all the way across the board, they need to put more money into the arts. But that's just my personal There's many people's opinion, but I don't think the billionaires agree... No, I think it's some people don't believe in the art so much and it's sad. What I see a lot is people are called to a creative path and they reject it so that they can make money and go do a real job, quote unquote, and then they become bitter assholes and then they don't want to put money into the arts because they didn't get to do that for themselves. And so they just continue with this like... Agenda of let's not put money into the arts because I didn't get to do that. So you don't get to do that Yeah, and it's kind of it's just that mindset of people not Wanting to make lives better for other people because they didn't get it. Yeah, which is hopefully hopefully they are going to theater programs Hopefully they're going to music hopefully they're you know, spending their money doing that. Yeah, so we just have to be creative about it, but overall we need art all the way from preschool to when people, know, last parts of their life. I think it's so is everywhere. Art is literally everywhere. All these books that I have, an artist made them, writers made them. And I have all sorts of artwork. Yeah. I always get shit from people saying, have so many books. I'm like, yeah, fucking this is what I like. Yeah. And you have a lot of art. I do. You took a lot of pictures of art on our trip. ⁓ my gosh. Yes, I did. And because it's, ⁓ I love creative people and I love to see what they come up with and ⁓ everybody sees things in a different way a little bit. And it's, what a wonderful thing. It is. I heard somebody, it was some famous writer, can't remember their name, but they said that our voice, our artist's voice is like our little fingerprint. our artist fingerprint, which I really love. Yeah, because everybody's individual. Everybody's different. Yeah. And that's so important. What did you see, or what do you see in me that reminds you of yourself? That's a good question. ⁓ I think tenacity, intention. I think ⁓ those type of things that are, you are very focused and I think... ⁓ I think I am too in a lot of, but I'm more spread out because I had more of an I've had to deal with family. ⁓ But ⁓ I think those are qualities we both ⁓ and we are creative. ⁓ And we spread that around. We ⁓ Which I think is wonderful. I think it is too. Is there anything that you hope I do than what you did? Well, you're already doing it. ⁓ Yeah, ⁓ I had five kids that I was helping to support. By this time. By this time, yeah. In your life. And I'm child free and I moved across the world. and I'm excited for you. I'm happy that you're exploring ⁓ other avenues, seeing other places, seeing other... Cultures. Yeah, I think it's so important for all of us to get out of our own little bubbles. Yes You know, but some people have to stay in their bubbles because that's where they feel safer whatever but we didn't ever have a bubble because you were No, when was the first time you moved to different places? when I was 11 we I mean I was around America I mean we moved around every every one to three years right depending on what my dad was up to And the first time was when I was 11, right when I turned 11, we moved to Portugal. And I was so grateful. I spent three years there and that was awesome. And then I got to spend three years ⁓ in Iran, Tehran, Iran. And I graduated from high school there, Tehran American School. I'm very grateful for that experience. It gave me a whole different perspective on the world. wasn't in my little, I mean, I'm grateful that I had a suburb home and all that. ⁓ It really made me realize how privileged I was and ⁓ it also gave me totally different perspective on different cultures and how everybody's raised differently. But we're all humans and we all want the same things. We all want our family. We want to feed them. We want to house them. We want to take care of them. We love our families and we just want the best for all of our neighbors. For the world. our communities. community, yeah. Yeah, we want to, you know, so I think that that's an important lesson that I learned at a young age. Yeah, because you were 17 when you left, and then you traveled around at 18 all over Europe with your friends, right? No, I was 17. You were 17? I was in the middle of being 17 when we traveled around. Okay. And then I got on the way back to the US when I left Iran. I actually went through Southeast Asia. Okay. And that was by myself. So, yeah. How long were you there by yourself? I six weeks. I traveled around. And you always meet up with other traveling people. And then you find out that there are wonderful people all over the world. And there was a wonderful, it's just, yeah, we're all in this little planet together and it's pretty awesome. That's the thing I love about travel is that other travelers, you realize that they're good people. And that most people are generally good. Yes. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. And here I worked at a prison. But a lot of them were great. Yeah. A lot of them were great people, just made a mistake. Or our system wasn't working in the correct way. Mm-hmm. Putting too many people in the pipeline for prison. We won't get into that, but yes. Yeah, we won't get into that. ⁓ But in reality, there are wonderful people everywhere. Yeah. And so, yeah. What do you want from me, and also my brother and my siblings as artists? I want you to be able to... ⁓ not have to worry about making a living. I think, I wish that you can be as creative as you would like to and you are. And you are making a living at it, which I'm very grateful for. And I think, I wish our society was a little bit ⁓ more supportive of the arts because I think then it would be easier. And it's not like you're not working, you're working and your brother is working. And you know, we're actually giving hope to our society, ⁓ like being a poet. ⁓ man, I wish I could remember the quote. ⁓ Alice Brigg, Alice. Briggs, to be a poet and to even when life is tough or something, you just, to love life and to express that through your art to help others. to be able to help others, you know, feel that connection. I think that's what I like the most. Yeah, I love that. Let's do some rapid fire questions. what's your, I don't know if these are gonna be rapid fire. We'll probably talk, but let's try and make them rapid fire. What's your favorite medium to work in? I love to paint, ⁓ but I also really love to do three dimensional. I like to cut wood. I like to make. like shapes out of wood and then put them together and paint them. So it's more of a relief work. That's what I'm liking. And maybe I'll even get into sculpture, but I haven't really done that so much. But I love painting. ⁓ But I also love cutting wood. So I think both of those together works really well. Well, your partner makes massive sculptures. Really cool. Stone and glass. Really beautiful, massive, massive sculptures. which is pretty cool. And so you're like, ⁓ I want to try that. What's one piece you've made that stayed with you? I would say the pieces that are cut out of wood and painted. And that's what I really enjoy. Yeah. that. ⁓ And also I would say the actually it's a piece I haven't finished. So, okay. The ghost ship. fire painting that I have not finished, but I hope to do that in the next couple years. There's a story behind that. How many people? 36 people died in that Oakland fire, the Ghost Ship fire. And I started a big six foot by nine foot painting, but I had to put it on hold for construction for the last four years. You moved into your studio and you've had to put... I've had to do a lot of construction work in the last four years. So I had to put that on hold. But I've had an art in itself, the construction. It is. Yeah. Because we've done it in a very creative way. Yeah. messy studio or clean studio? Well, I would say both because because you have to have sometimes you it ends up being messy in the process. And then you clean it up and then you do the next. Or, you know, so I would say both. Sometimes I really like to be more organized and other, like some things, like that's it's been harder to paint is because things are messy with construction. And so now I'm doing more wood carving because then I can just put it down and then get back to it and I don't have to worry about the dust. I don't have to worry about getting my paint is drying or I'm getting all the stuff in the paint. Do you ever use those containers that ⁓ I do. All the time. good. I do. That's so funny. I had these, if you ever have gotten a meal subscription service back when we had big boy jobs, my husband and I, we made more money, we would get purple carrot and they came with a lot of plastic containers. And every time, the first time I got it, I thought, ⁓ my mom could put paint in these. ⁓ And so I saved them all. And I use them all the time. Which is great. I'm glad you've used them. ⁓ yeah. Because you can just put paint in it and then screw the lid and screw the lid on and then it doesn't dry out and it's for all sorts of, you know, the glue, all sorts of things. love it. I'm glad I kept them. Music or silence while creating? I usually... Well... Sometimes I just get into the zone when I'm doing my woodworking, because I had headphones on and I'm still working with that. But usually I do have some music on. And that really can vary depending on my mood and what I'm doing. Yeah. What's something small that always sparks your creativity? Hmm, something small. Well, I would say when I look at other artists' work, that always reminds me or sparks me to go, ⁓ yeah, I need to just be creative. Yeah. Is that why you like museums so much? Yeah. Seeing all these other people and how they do things. And I always go like every month, both actually in Sonora where I used to live and now in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. We always have art hop or art walk where all the galleries are open and I always go see all my friends' works. And that is also wonderful. Because I get to see what they're doing and we all get together and share. That's one of the things that writers don't have as much is you're not just bringing your manuscript to your friend and being like, Enjoy this. It's just different. It's a different medium. so I always wish that... buddy system that you've come up The buddy system, yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons I created it so that we can support each other, people can support each other in their process. Because for visual art, it's very different, right? You can show a painting and people can look at a painting versus if you're writing a book, it's going to take hours to read that book and it's going to take probably long... time to even get the book into a finished product and like have it be bound. And so I do kind of wish that writers have more of the ability to like share their process and share their art. I never even, yeah, I didn't really think about that. I mean, we get we have pros and cons, right? Because when I moved abroad, all I had to do was have a laptop with me. That's true. Whereas you have all these all these arts. creative stuff, like in these huge sculptures. Well, I will say, we do have in both communities, they've always had like either a writing group or like they have poetry, you know, every month, I think the first week of the month in Truth or Consequences, they always have a, you can... share some of your writing, whether it's, you know, you have so many minutes and you can share parts or whole pieces depending on what you're doing. So that's awesome. I think that that's awesome. That's awesome. I don't want to share my work. That's the problem. I just want to be around people and create the same time. Like I want to write with other people, but I don't, I mean, sometimes I want to read it out loud, but sometimes I don't want to read it. Sometimes I want to just keep it to myself. Maybe I need to work on that. okay, so ⁓ this is my closing question. If someone listening feels like they put their creativity on hold, what would you say to them? Don't. Don't. Don't put your creativity on hold. At least whatever little bit you can do. as much as you can. Yeah. Do it. Do it. Yeah, because you were taking care of dad 24-7 for the most part. For how long? ⁓ good three. Three or four years. And there were times when, you know, sitting in the hospital, I was working on sketchbooks. Yeah. You know, because I needed to. Right. And ⁓ things like that, you know. Yeah. But a lot of times I did kind of put it on hold, probably a little too much. And you wish, what would you have done in those times? Would you have just? I think work on the sketchbook Work on the sketchbook more. Yeah. Yeah. like that to get those ideas out. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So don't put it on hold. Don't put it on hold. Just keep doing it. Do What do you wish somebody had told you when you were? Just keep doing it. Just keep doing it. Yeah. Just don't worry about a finished product. Don't worry about that, you know, that whole painting that's finished. just do what you can do at the moment. And ⁓ I think that's really important. Were you always worried about trying to get a finished product when you made art before? Yeah. Yeah. Was it because of how your dad treated you? Like, you do a good job and you have to succeed? Partially, and maybe preconceptions in my own. My own preconceptions of what art was supposed to be. And now that I look at You know, you go to all these museums, they have a lot of sketchbooks of all these people who done all the sketch work. I'm going, why did I, why did I, you know, ⁓ stop myself from doing that? Yeah. Why didn't I always have it with me? Yeah. And that was, that was part of the thing is not having it with me all the time. Right. Yeah. Do you always carry a sketchbook? Yeah, I do. Nice. Yep. Well, I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. It was a lot less chaotic than I was expecting. Well, it's funny, talking to you in normal life, you're much more chaotic than when you get in front of a microphone. You're much more focused in your answers in the microphone. Well, maybe it's because I don't have any other distractions around Oh, yeah, that's true. Because I get very distracted by other you're ADHD like I am. You gave it to me. Yes. Yes. And I agree. And it was a struggle for me in school. Yeah. And so I always thought I was the dumb kid and all that kind of stuff. So art was my Was your salvation kind Yeah, it was my salvation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love you, mommy. I love you, too. And we're very grateful to be here together. Yeah, this was a gift. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening. Yes, yes.