Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #537 Jason Flom with Johnny Berry

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#537 Jason Flom with Johnny Berry · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: On August tenth, nineteen ninety four, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, seventy
0:07
Speaker 1: eight year old Leonard Jones and twenty seven year old
0:09
Speaker 1: Michelle Brooks sat in a parked car when one male
0:12
Speaker 1: blocked the passenger door and another demanded that Jones get
0:15
Speaker 1: out before shooting and killing him. The two males fled.
0:20
Speaker 1: Michelle Brooks initially chose sixteen year old Johnny Barry from
0:23
Speaker 1: a photo lineup, but when she rescinded that idea at
0:26
Speaker 1: a preliminary hearing, the charges were dropped. Within a few weeks,
0:31
Speaker 1: Johnny was inexplicably rearrested for the crime of which he
0:35
Speaker 1: had just been cleared, and while in juvenile detention, he
0:38
Speaker 1: met fifteen year old Taheed Lloyd, who admitted that he
0:42
Speaker 1: was one of the two attackers in the Jones killing,
0:44
Speaker 1: but when he wouldn't agree to clear Johnny's name, the
0:47
Speaker 1: two boys fought. Lloyd was later arrested on an unrelated charge,
0:51
Speaker 1: and a gun in his possession was linked to the
0:53
Speaker 1: Jones murder. However, Lloyd mistakenly believed that Johnny had implicated him,
0:58
Speaker 1: and as retribution, falsely named Johnny Berry as his accomplice
1:02
Speaker 1: and Jones's shooter. At trial, Michelle Brooks' testimony was shaky
1:07
Speaker 1: at best, but with Lloyd's testimony, Johnny was convicted and
1:11
Speaker 1: sentenced to life without parole. Years later, Lloyd admitted his lies,
1:16
Speaker 1: but at a hearing when the prosecution threatened to charge
1:19
Speaker 1: Lloyd with perjury and retry him for the murder, Lloyd
1:22
Speaker 1: refused to officially recant. It took a slew of Supreme
1:26
Speaker 1: Court rulings on juvenile life sentences and a review by
1:29
Speaker 1: Philadelphia's Conviction Integrity Unit to finally set Johnny Barry free
1:34
Speaker 1: after nearly twenty five long years behind bars. This is
1:38
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your host,
1:56
Speaker 1: Jason Flahman. This episode is probably going to that's with
2:00
Speaker 1: your perceptions of justice. I mean, there are so many
2:04
Speaker 1: things wrong with this case. You're gonna feel like you
2:07
Speaker 1: need a chiropractic from your head spinning around. It's an
2:09
Speaker 1: incredible story of an incredible man named Johnny Berry, and
2:14
Speaker 1: it goes all the way to the United States Supreme
2:16
Speaker 1: Court decisions, to lying witnesses, and a corrupt system that
2:21
Speaker 1: really ignored what should have been absolutely crystal clear from
2:25
Speaker 1: day one. So without further ado, Johnny Berry, welcome to
2:29
Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction.
2:30
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you very much. Jason.
2:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I'm so sorry you're here because
2:36
Speaker 1: of what you had to go through, But I'm obviously
2:40
Speaker 1: on the flip side, I'm super happy that you're free
2:43
Speaker 1: and out and have been totally exonerated and vindicated and
2:48
Speaker 1: are now living your best life. So okay, what was
2:50
Speaker 1: your life like before all of this insanity?
2:53
Speaker 2: Growing up in Philadelphia, Wes Philadelphia, life was simple. It
2:57
Speaker 2: was fun. I am the eldest of five children. My
3:01
Speaker 2: father was active member in the military. My mother was
3:04
Speaker 2: a stay at home mom. We were poor, definitely didn't
3:07
Speaker 2: have much, but what we did have was love, dedication
3:11
Speaker 2: to one another, and we did our best to make
3:13
Speaker 2: things work.
3:14
Speaker 1: It sounds like people living that kind of life all
3:17
Speaker 1: over the country, right, just struggling to get by day
3:20
Speaker 1: to day, but having good parents and lots of love
3:23
Speaker 1: in the household. And so you were sixteen years old
3:26
Speaker 1: at the time of this horrible crime went on August tenth,
3:28
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. Leonard Jones, who was seventy eight years
3:31
Speaker 1: old and Michelle Brooks, who was just twenty seven, were
3:33
Speaker 1: sitting in a van in the Parkside neighborhood at Philadelphia,
3:36
Speaker 1: when two very young men approached the van. Right one
3:40
Speaker 1: of them blocked the passenger side door from opening, preventing
3:44
Speaker 1: Michelle from getting out, and then the other one approached
3:47
Speaker 1: mister Jones with a handgun and yelled at him to
3:49
Speaker 1: get out, but before he could even comply. I don't
3:52
Speaker 1: forget he was not a young guy, seventy eight years old.
3:54
Speaker 1: He was shot and killed and then both of the
3:57
Speaker 1: men fled. And before we dive in to the investigation,
4:01
Speaker 1: it's important to note that you, Johnny, had had some
4:05
Speaker 1: brushures with the law prior to this.
4:07
Speaker 2: Is that right, Yes? Unfortunately, Yeah, I was specifically involved
4:12
Speaker 2: with and I'm not proud of the selling of drugs
4:15
Speaker 2: and things of that nature.
4:16
Speaker 1: Right, So you weren't exactly a choir boy. But that
4:18
Speaker 1: also doesn't make you a murderer. And it is relevant though,
4:22
Speaker 1: because it means that you were known to the police.
4:24
Speaker 1: And so as the investigation got underway, Michelle Brooks, the
4:28
Speaker 1: twenty seven year old woman from the van, She described
4:31
Speaker 1: the man who had held her door shut and said
4:33
Speaker 1: he had a chipped front tooth, and then police showed
4:36
Speaker 1: her a photographic lineup, and from that lineup she picked you,
4:39
Speaker 1: and at that time you did have a slightly chipped
4:42
Speaker 1: front tooth, so police arrested you. But on August thirty first,
4:46
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, Michelle Brooks came to the preliminary hearing
4:49
Speaker 1: and when she saw you, she told police that you
4:51
Speaker 1: were not the person who had held the door shut.
4:54
Speaker 1: You're just not the guy. So naturally the charges were
4:57
Speaker 1: dismissed and you were freed, and that should have been
5:01
Speaker 1: the end of it for you right there, you know,
5:03
Speaker 1: But a few weeks later you were rearrested for the
5:07
Speaker 1: same crime and sent back to juvie. So, Johnny, this
5:11
Speaker 1: is crazy, right, I mean, pill us In, do you
5:12
Speaker 1: have any idea why they rearrested you.
5:15
Speaker 2: I have a theory. It was a time period where
5:17
Speaker 2: Philadelphia was being plagued with crime, and politicians and public
5:22
Speaker 2: officials were like their feet held to fire, like, hey,
5:25
Speaker 2: we got to do something about this. I was a
5:27
Speaker 2: known individual to authorities. I was in the streets, I
5:31
Speaker 2: was involved with gang activity, I sold drugs, and I
5:35
Speaker 2: believe that the police specifically honed in on me. They
5:39
Speaker 2: had me. They didn't have any other individual at that
5:41
Speaker 2: particular time, and they wanted me and they were stuck
5:44
Speaker 2: on me. And that's why we don't have any or
5:48
Speaker 2: never came up with any type of evidence as to
5:50
Speaker 2: why I was rearrested.
5:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's not completely out of the realm
5:54
Speaker 1: of possibilities. It was Philadelphia in the nineties, after all,
5:57
Speaker 1: when both crime and police miscond were just rampant. I mean,
6:02
Speaker 1: but what happens next is even crazier. So there you
6:06
Speaker 1: are back in juvenile detention and you hear about a
6:10
Speaker 1: fifteen year old kid named tay Heed Lloyd who had
6:12
Speaker 1: been a juvie on an unrelated charge during your last
6:15
Speaker 1: short stint. Now he was still there and some guys
6:19
Speaker 1: but ahead and't told you what he had said after
6:23
Speaker 1: you had left the last time.
6:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was incarcerated in the juvenile facility, and
6:30
Speaker 2: once there, the individuals who were there and had been
6:35
Speaker 2: introduced to me, so to speak from my time prior,
6:38
Speaker 2: the whole thing was hey, what are you doing here?
6:41
Speaker 2: Why are you back? And I'm like, I have no idea.
6:44
Speaker 2: They say, okay, well, by the way, do you know
6:46
Speaker 2: this guy over here indicating Tayhi Lloyd? And I'm like, no,
6:50
Speaker 2: I don't know him, never met him before, you know,
6:52
Speaker 2: what's up with him? They're like, hey, when you left,
6:54
Speaker 2: he told us that he and his friend had committed
6:57
Speaker 2: the murder and not you, and that you really didn't
7:00
Speaker 2: do it. So, hearing that, I approached him and I
7:03
Speaker 2: was like, hey, I'm hearing that you had something to
7:05
Speaker 2: do with this homicide that I'm here for. I didn't
7:08
Speaker 2: do it. You know I didn't do it. Can you
7:09
Speaker 2: help me with it? His exact words to me was,
7:13
Speaker 2: I know who did it. I didn't do it, but
7:16
Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything. And at that point I said,
7:19
Speaker 2: or you're not saying anything? Oh no, you bought this.
7:22
Speaker 2: We got into a physical altercation. We started to fight,
7:25
Speaker 2: and the officers in that vicinity came and they broke
7:28
Speaker 2: the fight up, separated us, but we had bad blood
7:31
Speaker 2: between us from that point on because I was so
7:34
Speaker 2: bent on. Man, I'm in this freaking hell hole for
7:36
Speaker 2: something you and your friend or whoever it was, did
7:40
Speaker 2: and I'm not supposed to be here.
7:41
Speaker 1: And do you remember did Lloyd have chip teeth like
7:45
Speaker 1: the witness Michelle Brooks had mentioned.
7:47
Speaker 2: TYI, Lloyd had a very very identifiable two front chip teeth.
7:52
Speaker 2: I could have actually taken the tip of your pinky
7:55
Speaker 2: finger and stuck it through that chip in front of
7:58
Speaker 2: his two teeth.
8:00
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that anybody in your situation would
8:03
Speaker 1: have acted any differently. I mean, got every reason to
8:06
Speaker 1: be angry and to want to try to do what
8:09
Speaker 1: you could do in that situation to extricate yourself. Right,
8:14
Speaker 1: And here's this guy who holds the key, and he's
8:17
Speaker 1: right in front of you, and then he actually turned
8:20
Speaker 1: in the complete opposite direction. What I'm talking about is
8:24
Speaker 1: Lloyd was arrested several months later and they found him
8:27
Speaker 1: in possession of a handgun that was linked to the murder.
8:30
Speaker 1: Ballistics confirmed this, and he thought that you had implicated
8:35
Speaker 1: him because you had known that he had done it
8:39
Speaker 1: from the talk inside the prison, and so he went
8:42
Speaker 1: ahead and implicated you in the crime, almost like street
8:45
Speaker 1: justice or something like that. Right, And as happens in
8:48
Speaker 1: these cases time and time again, he agreed to plead
8:51
Speaker 1: guilty in exchange for a fifteenth to thirty seven year
8:54
Speaker 1: sentence for a murder that he did commit. So he
8:57
Speaker 1: saved himself from a life sentence changed for lying and
9:01
Speaker 1: presenting false testimony against you. Well, now what happens next
9:05
Speaker 1: is predictable, right, You get charged with murder, robbery, conspiracy,
9:08
Speaker 1: and possessing instruments of crime. So now you're facing the
9:13
Speaker 1: worst imaginable scenario. What was going through your mind when
9:17
Speaker 1: you found out you were being charged with all these
9:18
Speaker 1: terrible crimes.
9:20
Speaker 2: When I realized that I was being charged for this
9:22
Speaker 2: murder and that he was bearing testimony against me, I
9:26
Speaker 2: was horrified. I still remained optimistic that I was going
9:30
Speaker 2: to go to trial and beat the case because I
9:32
Speaker 2: didn't do it.
9:33
Speaker 1: Until let's go to the trial. So this is September
9:36
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five. He had already spent the year in
9:38
Speaker 1: jail awaiting trial. And then Michelle Brooks. So Michelle Brooks,
9:42
Speaker 1: remember was the witness who was in this vehicle at
9:45
Speaker 1: the time of the murder. Now her testimony was conflicting
9:50
Speaker 1: and confusing. She identified you as the person who held
9:54
Speaker 1: the door shut during the robbery, but then she also
9:57
Speaker 1: identified you as the gunman, which of course they couldn't
10:00
Speaker 1: both be true. And she also said that she had
10:03
Speaker 1: told the police previously that you weren't involved in the crime,
10:06
Speaker 1: and then she restated that in her testimony. So if
10:12
Speaker 1: I'm on the jury, I'm going wait a minute, there's
10:15
Speaker 1: three totally different stories here. But I think the nail
10:19
Speaker 1: in your coffin, so to speak, was that Lloyd testified
10:23
Speaker 1: saying that you and he had committed the crime. He
10:25
Speaker 1: knew full well who had committed the crime with him,
10:28
Speaker 1: and that guy, his actual co conspirator, remained on the
10:32
Speaker 1: streets as a result of them taking you in his place.
10:36
Speaker 1: So who was your attorney and did they mount any
10:39
Speaker 1: kind of a defense for you.
10:42
Speaker 2: My attorney at the time was Donald Michael Podova. I
10:45
Speaker 2: will say that he did his best. He was quote appointed, overworked, underpaid,
10:51
Speaker 2: and he tried his best to save this young boy's life.
10:55
Speaker 2: And it was so much that he could have done
10:58
Speaker 2: with a so called co defendant who pointed the finger
11:01
Speaker 2: and said, hey, yeah, I was a part of this crime,
11:03
Speaker 2: but he done it with me. Give me a deal,
11:05
Speaker 2: you know.
11:06
Speaker 1: So predictably, you were convicted of murder, robbery, possessing instruments
11:11
Speaker 1: of a crime, and conspiracy and sentenced to life in
11:14
Speaker 1: prison without the possibility of parole. What was that awful
11:18
Speaker 1: moment like when the jury came back in with the verdict.
11:21
Speaker 2: When I was convicted and they handed down that life sentence,
11:25
Speaker 2: tears came down my eyes like a baby. I looked
11:27
Speaker 2: back at my mother at the time it was living
11:29
Speaker 2: and I cried because I couldn't believe that the system
11:33
Speaker 2: had felt my family and my community and me, and
11:36
Speaker 2: at that point I just felt absolutely helpless.
11:49
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12:35
Speaker 2: When I first got to prison, they sent me to
12:38
Speaker 2: state correctional institution Gratifford. That place was like another world.
12:44
Speaker 2: When I was eighteen at the time. When I first
12:46
Speaker 2: entered into grat Afford, it was like halways full of people,
12:50
Speaker 2: full of people, like close jury, loud, and I thought,
12:55
Speaker 2: who are all these people? Wow, there's a lot of
12:58
Speaker 2: counselors that were here, because I saw very few people
13:02
Speaker 2: who had on the state issued clothing. Well what it was,
13:06
Speaker 2: were all inmates, and at that particular time, we were
13:10
Speaker 2: allowed to wear our street clothing. So the hallways was
13:13
Speaker 2: filled with inmates or residents as I like to call them.
13:17
Speaker 2: At that time, prison was a lot more ran by
13:21
Speaker 2: the residents, more so than it is now. At that time,
13:24
Speaker 2: the residents had more control over the institutions, and there
13:28
Speaker 2: was a lot more liberties, more freedom. It was more
13:31
Speaker 2: volatile than it is now. But on the other hand,
13:35
Speaker 2: it had like a balance to the police. The residents
13:38
Speaker 2: kind of ran it, but they maintained a balance, so
13:41
Speaker 2: people didn't just do anything. You know, there were texts
13:44
Speaker 2: and balances if you've done something. You know. Administration kind
13:47
Speaker 2: of worked hand to hand with some of the residents
13:49
Speaker 2: and we kind of figured it out. That didn't mean
13:52
Speaker 2: that some stuff didn't happen sometimes, but it was a
13:54
Speaker 2: lot more easier. And I'm telling you five six seven
13:58
Speaker 2: years went by like nothing.
14:00
Speaker 1: So six seven years later, two thousand and two, after
14:05
Speaker 1: your convictions had already been upheld on appeal. You received
14:08
Speaker 1: a letter that must have rocked your world. Tell us
14:11
Speaker 1: about that.
14:12
Speaker 2: I received under the door and myself a recantation letter
14:17
Speaker 2: from Tyi Lloyd, basically saying, hey, here's a long awaited
14:21
Speaker 2: piece of information that you've been waiting for. He wanted
14:25
Speaker 2: to come clean, wanted to clear my name, and so
14:27
Speaker 2: he did that. He talked about the fact of him
14:30
Speaker 2: having known me prior to being incarcerated at the juvenile facility.
14:34
Speaker 2: He talked about his incentives or motive for Lyon, and
14:38
Speaker 2: he also saw it as a means to receive less time.
14:42
Speaker 2: And I do remember that he was pretty insistent on
14:46
Speaker 2: he wasn't recanting for me. He more so was concerned
14:50
Speaker 2: about my mother and things of that nature. So for me,
14:54
Speaker 2: it was like a bittersweet sort of thing at a
14:56
Speaker 2: time because I was so elated. I was so blown
14:59
Speaker 2: away by receiving that recantation, but at the same time
15:03
Speaker 2: I was dealing with the loss of my mother. That
15:06
Speaker 2: was hard, you know, I don't really talk about that.
15:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it's hard to imagine being stuck inside and
15:13
Speaker 1: getting the worst news that you could get like that,
15:17
Speaker 1: and what a crazy whirlwind of events, right if you
15:19
Speaker 1: get that worst news, and then you get this letter
15:21
Speaker 1: that you'd probably been maybe not even allowing yourself to
15:25
Speaker 1: hope would come, but it came. So this guy who
15:29
Speaker 1: had literally put you in prison for the rest of
15:31
Speaker 1: your life not only sent this letter, but he also
15:34
Speaker 1: signed an after David under oath saying that he had
15:37
Speaker 1: falsely implicated you because he thought that you had told
15:41
Speaker 1: the prosecution about Lloyd admitting in the juvenile detention center
15:46
Speaker 1: that he had taken part of the crime. So then
15:49
Speaker 1: your lawyer, Robert Gamberg filed a post conviction petition for
15:53
Speaker 1: a new trial and was granted the hearing. Now he
15:56
Speaker 1: had collected a significant amount of evidence to defend your innocence,
16:00
Speaker 1: statements from two different people who were in the juvenile
16:02
Speaker 1: detention center back in ninety four who overheard Lloyd say
16:05
Speaker 1: that he was going to falsely accuse and implicate you,
16:10
Speaker 1: and this lawyer Gamberg obtained a statement from a prison inmate,
16:13
Speaker 1: Bryant Miles, who said that Russell Q. Wilson admitted that
16:16
Speaker 1: he and Lloyd had committed the crime and that Lloyd
16:19
Speaker 1: was the gunman. Bingo, right, this is powerful stuff. This
16:24
Speaker 1: is where it takes a crazy turn. In two thousand
16:27
Speaker 1: and seven. Lloyd was prepared to testify by a video conference,
16:32
Speaker 1: but the prosecution had some dirty tricks a DOA prosecutor
16:36
Speaker 1: threatened to charge Lloyd with perjury and retry him for
16:40
Speaker 1: the murder if he persisted in his recantation, and the
16:44
Speaker 1: judge conducting the hearing became concerned that Lloyd was opening
16:48
Speaker 1: himself up to a perjury prosecution, which he was, so
16:51
Speaker 1: he appointed a lawyer to represent Lloyd and continued the hearing,
16:55
Speaker 1: and then the prosecutor got just what they wanted, right.
16:58
Speaker 1: The hearing resumed two thousand and eight, but Lloyd took
17:01
Speaker 1: the Fifth Amendment and you were sent back to prison.
17:05
Speaker 2: Yep.
17:05
Speaker 1: What freaking turn of events that is. And just so
17:08
Speaker 1: people understand, if he had lost, if they had gone
17:11
Speaker 1: and done what they said they were going to do
17:12
Speaker 1: and follow through on their threat, he could have gone
17:15
Speaker 1: back to prison for the rest of his life instead
17:17
Speaker 1: of fifteen to thirty seven. Am I right?
17:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that was part of his agreement with the
17:22
Speaker 2: distric Attorney's office, is that it turned out that he
17:24
Speaker 2: testified falsely, perject testimony anything like that, the dealers off
17:29
Speaker 2: the table and he would have been prosecuted to the
17:31
Speaker 2: full assistant of the law. But the problem with that is,
17:34
Speaker 2: as I see the District Attorney's office in Pennsylvania, they
17:38
Speaker 2: have immunity, and so when they utilize his agreement as
17:43
Speaker 2: a threat to him, which it was, it takes away
17:45
Speaker 2: the power of the balance of justice and the scales
17:48
Speaker 2: of justice because now even though he wanted to do
17:51
Speaker 2: the right thing and tell the truth, he's concluded from
17:54
Speaker 2: doing that because it's like, hey, I'm not going to
17:56
Speaker 2: go to jail and exchange for helping this guy to
17:59
Speaker 2: get out. They didn't leave him any real room to
18:02
Speaker 2: do the right thing. And thisic attorney, who were instrumental
18:06
Speaker 2: in seeing to that he plied the fifth. Their feet
18:09
Speaker 2: aren't held to the fire or anything like that because
18:11
Speaker 2: they have immunity.
18:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's this guy, Lloyd, who finally found his moral
18:17
Speaker 1: compass or his some kind of courage to come forward
18:20
Speaker 1: and tell the truth. And the prosecutor is like, Nope,
18:23
Speaker 1: we don't want the truth. Yep, we're not interested in
18:26
Speaker 1: no kind of truth. We're happy the way things are.
18:30
Speaker 1: And this takes us to February of twenty eighteen. So
18:34
Speaker 1: now you've been in for what twenty three years.
18:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, approximately. Yeah, And so there have.
18:40
Speaker 1: Been a number of Supreme Court decisions in the past
18:43
Speaker 1: couple decades that have had a significant positive impact on
18:46
Speaker 1: juvenile justice, and I want to just break those down
18:48
Speaker 1: for a second. They include that back in two thousand
18:52
Speaker 1: and five Roper versus Simmons, the United States Supreme Court
18:55
Speaker 1: ruled that the death penalty was unconstitutional for juveniles, and
18:59
Speaker 1: then in two twenty ten, with Graham versus Florida, the
19:03
Speaker 1: US Supreme Court invalidated life without parole sentences for juveniles
19:07
Speaker 1: and non homicide incidents. In twenty twelve, in Miller versus Alabama,
19:13
Speaker 1: the US Supreme Court ruled that mandatory life without parole
19:16
Speaker 1: sentences imposed on juveniles were unconstitutional in all cases. And
19:20
Speaker 1: then in twenty sixteen, in Montgomery versus Louisiana, the US
19:24
Speaker 1: Supreme Court made the holding they made in Miller retroactive,
19:28
Speaker 1: and so due to that very ruling, you received a
19:32
Speaker 1: reduced sentence that made you immediately eligible for parole and
19:35
Speaker 1: common Please Court Judge Barbara McDermott's fantastic you love her,
19:40
Speaker 1: right love her, and Judge McDermott, if you're listening, we're
19:46
Speaker 1: sending you a big shout out and our respect for
19:49
Speaker 1: having done what you did. It's important that we recognize
19:53
Speaker 1: when people in positions of power do what's good and right.
19:57
Speaker 1: So she noted that you could quote continue to fight
20:00
Speaker 1: on the street instead of in prison end quote. She met,
20:03
Speaker 1: of course, fight to prove your innocence. But on August
20:05
Speaker 1: fourteenth to twenty eighteen, you finally came home. What was
20:09
Speaker 1: that like when you just walked out the door. Was
20:12
Speaker 1: there a big crowd to meet you? What did you do?
20:16
Speaker 2: Oh man, Well, at the time, there was one very significant,
20:21
Speaker 2: very special person there to meet me, as my wife.
20:24
Speaker 2: She was right there, walked out with a box in
20:26
Speaker 2: my hand, gave her a big hug, and I kind
20:29
Speaker 2: of like troted as fast as I could in the
20:31
Speaker 2: direction away from the prison because in my mind, I
20:34
Speaker 2: felt like, at any moment, they're going to say, hey, Johnny, listen,
20:37
Speaker 2: we made a mistake. Man, you gotta come back. So
20:40
Speaker 2: I wanted to get the hell out of here. She said, hey, man,
20:42
Speaker 2: you moving kind of quickly, and I'm like, well, you know,
20:44
Speaker 2: if you want to get with me, you better come on.
20:46
Speaker 2: But yeah, man, for me, that moment was like a
20:49
Speaker 2: breath of fresh air and a burning building. I felt
20:53
Speaker 2: like I had absolutely won when I walked out those
20:56
Speaker 2: doors and I got in that car with those prison
20:59
Speaker 2: attire and we drove down that route.
21:12
Speaker 1: Let's not forget that even though you were free, you
21:14
Speaker 1: weren't really free, right, you were still a convicted murderer
21:18
Speaker 1: and all the things that go with that. But in
21:21
Speaker 1: another good turn of events, there was a new DA
21:23
Speaker 1: in town. His name was Larry Krasner, and Larry Krasner
21:27
Speaker 1: was a friend of mine and a great man. He
21:30
Speaker 1: had by this time established one of the most robust
21:33
Speaker 1: conviction integrity units, run by Patricia Cummings in the country.
21:37
Speaker 1: And they reviewed your case, and they found all the
21:42
Speaker 1: statements that corroborated your innocence. And so June twenty fourth,
21:46
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, less than a year after you were freed,
21:50
Speaker 1: all the convictions were vacated and all the charges were dismissed.
21:54
Speaker 1: How did that feel?
21:56
Speaker 2: Well? Let me start off first by saying to Patricia Cummins,
22:00
Speaker 2: phenomenal woman, and to Larry Krasner, shout out to them
22:04
Speaker 2: virtual hugs. I love those two individuals. I love the
22:07
Speaker 2: work that they are doing. I take my head off
22:09
Speaker 2: to them on that particular day where I was exonerated. First,
22:14
Speaker 2: it took about maybe fifteen minutes. The judge said a
22:16
Speaker 2: few words, told me I was exonerated. I accepted it,
22:21
Speaker 2: and the court went on with its normal daily proceeding.
22:24
Speaker 2: And I'm like, wow, twenty three years and some change
22:28
Speaker 2: versus fifteen minutes, and I walked out of the courtroom
22:32
Speaker 2: a freeman. I just felt like I got me back.
22:36
Speaker 2: I had felt empowered, and I felt like I could
22:38
Speaker 2: then begin my new life.
22:41
Speaker 1: And the Ada tom Gata actually told Judge McDermott that
22:45
Speaker 1: had the prosecution allowed Lloyd to testify at the post
22:49
Speaker 1: conviction hearing in two thousand and eight, without the threat
22:53
Speaker 1: of being prosecuted for perjury, you would have been granted
22:56
Speaker 1: a new trial. Those are powerful words that you don't
22:59
Speaker 1: hear often enough from people like him.
23:03
Speaker 2: Yep, I actually know him very well, very very decent
23:07
Speaker 2: person with courage beyond description. So I'm glad that he
23:13
Speaker 2: has been in addition to that office and changing the
23:16
Speaker 2: trajectory of the way in which that office had been
23:19
Speaker 2: running for past thirty or some odd years.
23:23
Speaker 1: Amen to that as well, and so as many villains
23:26
Speaker 1: as there are in this story, it feels like there's
23:28
Speaker 1: almost an equal number of heroes, and I'm glad we're
23:31
Speaker 1: recognizing them here and now. And then in August of
23:34
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, you filed a federal civil rights loss. It's
23:37
Speaker 1: seeking damages from the city of Philadelphia. And I have
23:39
Speaker 1: to say, in all the years I've been doing this work,
23:42
Speaker 1: one of the questions that I'm asked the most is
23:44
Speaker 1: people they always want to know that the person who
23:48
Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted, like, surely they got compensation that millions
23:51
Speaker 1: of dollars and like an apology, right, And unfortunately that's
23:55
Speaker 1: not what happens in far too many of these cases. Actually,
23:59
Speaker 1: in the large majority of these cases, and yours is
24:02
Speaker 1: one of them. Am I right?
24:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually, a lot of cases do not become successful
24:08
Speaker 2: on civil wrongful conviction suit. They just aren't successful. And
24:13
Speaker 2: it's a year after year process fighting tooth and nail
24:16
Speaker 2: to be compensated.
24:18
Speaker 1: So Pennsylvania is one of the states that doesn't have
24:21
Speaker 1: a compensation statue, you know, and the Innocents Project has
24:24
Speaker 1: been leading the charge to pass compensation statutes and laws
24:28
Speaker 1: around the country. I think they're now thirty two or
24:31
Speaker 1: thirty three states that have them, even then they vary
24:35
Speaker 1: widely and some of them provide very very little no
24:38
Speaker 1: matter what you went through. But Pennsylvania doesn't have a law,
24:41
Speaker 1: and so you haven't received any compensation whatsoever for your
24:45
Speaker 1: twenty three years in prison.
24:47
Speaker 2: No civil lawsuits are still on the way, but as
24:51
Speaker 2: far as the state saying, hey, look, we apologize, we
24:54
Speaker 2: acknowledge you've been wrongfully convicted, and as a gester of
24:58
Speaker 2: you being able to kid on your out here, no,
25:01
Speaker 2: that hasn't happened.
25:02
Speaker 1: Well, listen, hopefully it's not too far off, and hopefully
25:05
Speaker 1: you will be successful in one of these civil suits,
25:08
Speaker 1: so you definitely deserve it. In the meantime, though, I'm
25:11
Speaker 1: happy to say that you have welcomed the baby boy
25:14
Speaker 1: into the world.
25:15
Speaker 2: Right, yep, it's my baby boy. His name is Yusuf.
25:19
Speaker 2: He's just turned two. He's so advanced. Man, it's so smart.
25:23
Speaker 1: That's awesome. That's a beautiful scene. And you have a
25:27
Speaker 1: cleaning business now as well.
25:28
Speaker 2: Right. I work alongside of another individual, and what we
25:32
Speaker 2: do is we can clean commercial and residential properties and
25:36
Speaker 2: then we also do clean outs, so individuals weren't like
25:40
Speaker 2: debris and things like that moved and then sense of
25:43
Speaker 2: the dumpster and things like that. We do our best
25:45
Speaker 2: to provide that service.
25:47
Speaker 1: And so, Johnny, for people who are listening out there,
25:49
Speaker 1: who are wanting to help, and we know how expensive
25:52
Speaker 1: it is raising a little kid. Is there a way
25:55
Speaker 1: that people can reach out to you about your cleaning
25:57
Speaker 1: business if they're in the Philadelphia area, or to make
26:00
Speaker 1: a speech to help, you know, to help cover your
26:02
Speaker 1: expenses while you're waiting for what we hope will be
26:05
Speaker 1: a successful outcome of a civil case eventually. Is there
26:08
Speaker 1: a way for people to contact you?
26:10
Speaker 2: You can contact me directly. My email is my name
26:13
Speaker 2: backwards Barry Johnny eleven eleven at gmail dot com.
26:18
Speaker 1: All right, so if anyone can help, has the ability
26:22
Speaker 1: to help, and is willing to help, please go to
26:24
Speaker 1: the link in the bio. We're gonna have Johnny's contact
26:27
Speaker 1: info there to help Johnny and his family. Of course,
26:30
Speaker 1: now we have the part of our show that I
26:32
Speaker 1: love the most and I think our audience does too.
26:36
Speaker 1: We call it, of course, closing arguments, and Johnny, here's
26:38
Speaker 1: how it works. It's very very simple. First of all,
26:41
Speaker 1: I thank you again for being here with us today
26:44
Speaker 1: courageously sharing your insane story and your experience in the
26:48
Speaker 1: service of others. And now I'm just going to kick back,
26:51
Speaker 1: turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on, and of
26:55
Speaker 1: course leave your microphone on so you can share with
26:58
Speaker 1: us any other thoughts that you want to impart to
27:01
Speaker 1: our large and growing audience.
27:04
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, and I do appreciate being here.
27:07
Speaker 2: The one thing that I'm focusing on right now here
27:10
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania is hopefully getting the legislatures to realize the
27:16
Speaker 2: importance of enacting a law which would allow for parole
27:20
Speaker 2: eligibility for people who are serving life sentences and deserve
27:25
Speaker 2: to see the parole board. I think it's important for
27:27
Speaker 2: a number of reasons. One because to me, if you
27:31
Speaker 2: really do the numbers, it's cost efficient. It costs about
27:34
Speaker 2: in upwards of maybe thirty seven to forty thousand dollars
27:37
Speaker 2: the house and inmate annually, and if the intimate or
27:41
Speaker 2: resident is geriatric or in some other type of state
27:44
Speaker 2: where they need assistance, it can run you up with
27:47
Speaker 2: some hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it's cost efficient. Also,
27:51
Speaker 2: if you really look at these statistics for an individual
27:55
Speaker 2: who has been commuted after serving a life sentence or
27:58
Speaker 2: has been pardoned or has been released on parole, or
28:02
Speaker 2: some other type of situation like that. The recidivism break
28:05
Speaker 2: for that type of individual is less than one percent.
28:09
Speaker 2: So statistics have shown that these type of individuals, this
28:13
Speaker 2: class of people mostly do not reoffend. The statistics show
28:17
Speaker 2: is less than one percent. So I'll call on the legislature.
28:21
Speaker 2: I call on their constituents. It makes sense, man do
28:24
Speaker 2: the sensible thing, and that a legislation to say parole eligibility.
28:29
Speaker 2: That means an individual would have a chance to see
28:32
Speaker 2: the parole board and then leave it to the parole
28:34
Speaker 2: board to make that decision based on that individual's case
28:37
Speaker 2: and then also what that person has been doing while
28:41
Speaker 2: in cons of it. And I put that number in
28:43
Speaker 2: maybe twenty five years. So that's what I would say,
28:46
Speaker 2: Support a bill for parole eligibility.
28:55
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to rafel Conviction. I'd like to
28:58
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,
29:01
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music
29:05
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated
29:08
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
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Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and
29:16
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava
29:19
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow
29:22
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flamm.
29:26
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcasts
29:29
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one