Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Secure Attachment and Trauma with Tracey Yokas Part 2 | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 6 Episode 3

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Secure Attachment and Trauma with Tracey Yokas Part 2 | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 6 Episode 3 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Kate Kripke and welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast brings the reality of motherhood to the table for real, honest conversations.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Here we laugh, we cry, we learn, we grow, we are awestruck, amazed, humbled, and validated.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: But most importantly, together we begin to live in a new way that allows us to recognize the immense role that our own health and well-being plays in the health and well-being of our kids.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we recognize that everything we do to take care of our physical, psychological, social, and spiritual health is in service of our children.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: This season we are diving deep into the role that the shoulds and the shouldn'ts and rules and expectations play in our motherhood journey.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Together, this season, we will learn to break those boundaries that hold us back from our greatest potential.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna hear from moms who have taken this risk, from experts who help in this journey, and from family members who, Lord help me, have important insight to share.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So pull up a chair, my friend, make a cup of tea, pour a glass of wine, put on your walking shoes, turn up the volume in your car.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this together because nobody should mother alone.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: This week I get to share with you part two of my really incredible conversation with Tracy Yokos.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't listened to part one, go ahead and listen to that first.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: It will help this episode make more sense.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: But today, Tracy's gonna talk about her relationship with her incredible daughter.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a mother who worries about your relationship with your child, who really wants to have that, you know, safe, secure, playful, trusting, joyful relationship with your child as they grow older.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're not so sure of how to get there or you're hitting some bumps in the road now.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is gonna bring you a ton of inspiration and also a ton of ideas because Tracy really walks us through what a secure attachment looks like and what it feels like.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I am so glad you're here and um let's get started.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, if you're a mom balancing a demanding career or other passions in life with the joys and challenges of raising young kids, I want you to know that I see you.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I understand the pressure to be perfect at work and at home and the constant feeling that you might be falling short in both.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're not alone, and there is a way to feel more in control and connected.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty universal, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: When we become moms, we jump into action mode.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: We focus all of our attention on our kiddos, and we fall farther and farther away from allowing ourselves to tend to what we need to also feel okay.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: With all the to-dos, any resources spent on ourselves feel unnecessary, wasted, and maybe even selfish.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, whether we acknowledge it or not, we all learn very quickly that we simply can't be our best in anything when we're depleted.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing I also want you to understand today.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: When moms like you and me are stressed, anxious, or overwhelmed, it doesn't just affect us.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It can have long-lasting effects on our kids' mental health and development.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: The pressure you're feeling could be shaping your child's future in ways you never imagined.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: When we are overwhelmed, it's easy to fall into the trap of perfectionism, trying to meet impossible standards in both our careers and motherhood.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that pressure doesn't just hurt us, it impacts our kids too because we become more anxious.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: We take more things personally, and we have very little tolerance for any discomfort that our children feel.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Kids who grow up without a secure attachment are more likely to struggle with anxiety, insecurity, and difficulties forming healthy relationships.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: They absorb our stress and it can lead to challenges that affect their entire lives.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't have to be this way.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I created the Calm Connection System, a transformative science-based program specifically designed to help turn your guilt, anxiety, and overwhelm into clarity, confidence, and calm.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: With the Calm Connection System, you can break free of the pressures that hold you back.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: You can nurture a secure attachment with your kiddo, and you can still thrive in your career or other passions outside of motherhood.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I've spent 20 years as a maternal and child mental health specialist helping more than 6,000 women just like you transform their lives with strategies that are practical, science-backed, and deeply empathetic.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: As a mom of two teenage daughters, I've walked this path myself, balancing the demands of motherhood with a career that I am passionate about.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know what it takes to find that balance, and I'm here to guide you every step of the way.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the Calm Connection System isn't just about managing your stress.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's about creating a life where you can pursue your ambitions and be the mom that you want to be.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: A life where you and your children feel secure, connected, and capable of facing the world with confidence.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you're ready to take the first step towards a more balanced, fulfilling life for you and your family, I invite you to book a free call with me in the next few days.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about how the Calm Connection System can help you create the life for you and your children that you all deserve while continuing to share your incredible gifts with the world.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Book your call now so we can discuss whether or not this program is a fit for you.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And regardless, you're going to walk away from our call with new clarity about what's causing your anxiety and things that you can do to access now more now, access more confidence and calm both at home and at work.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make sure that you have a few easy things that will help you right away, whether we work together or not.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: As a reminder, decades of research has confirmed that untreated anxiety in moms causes anxiety in kids.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the fastest and most effective way to make sure that your kiddo is healthy is to do what you need to do to make sure that you are healthy.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: You absolutely can excel both outside of motherhood and inside of motherhood, giving your child everything that they need to live a long, healthy, and happy life.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: This call is where you start, and the link is in the show notes.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to seeing you there.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Hey listeners, I want to tell you about the one clock.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: The one clock is a clock that is designed to help you wake up in the way that your nervous system most needs to move through the day with calm and clarity.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know those clocks that wake you up in the morning with that loud beep that jars you out of sleep, you know, with your heart racing?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is not the one clock.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: The one clock is designed with Grammy award-winning musicians that have taken the science behind waking up and turned that into the most amazing music that you have ever woken up to.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna help you start your day with ease and clarity.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that, but the clock itself, it's like a piece of art.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is beautiful.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're looking for something to help you manage your nervous system and start your day that's gonna set you up for success, I invite you to check out the one clock.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Information is in the show notes.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Tracy, welcome back to part two.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if any listeners are jumping in to this conversation, I really want to encourage you to go back and listen to part one with Tracy Yokas first, because today we're gonna really kind of continue our conversation about talking about what a healthy, connected, secure relationship between a mother and a daughter can look like.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we're always gonna hold in context the reminder that we're always evolving and growing and making mistakes and repairing, and no one's perfect, and there are plenty of bumps.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: But um so if you haven't listened to part one, please go listen to part one before part two.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Tracy, as you and I were talking about before um we started today, I there were so many important nuggets that you brought to the table last um week, last episode.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna set our listeners up for a summary of what some of those big things are.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And before we dive into talking about your daughter and your relationship with your daughter now, let me know if you hear anything here that you want to expand on.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because we could literally have a full hour for every single one of these things.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll go through them and then and then once I've gone through all of them, if you want to revisit any of them, we can.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing that I think is a big takeaway from our first conversation is that compassion leads to agency.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So to remind our folks, your daughter was, your your mom passed away suddenly when your daughter was about 13.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: She and your mom were very close and connected.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that loss set your daughter into a spiral of grief, grief and pain and despair that turned into or evolved into an eating disorder, depression, self-harm, all those things that none of us who have children ever want our children to have to go through.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the really beautiful things that you brought to light was, you know, when you began to realize sort of the part that you, like what you were coming to the table as a as a parent, mothering a child through these things, how you had inside of you some things that hadn't been realized, intended to yet.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: That when you developed that capacity to be compassionate towards yourself, you began to feel like you had more choice and control when it came to how to help your daughter through this.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that can happen is we see our kids struggling, we feel like we have no control.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing we which we're just like along for the ride.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the moment I heard you say that in the moment you develop space and found compassion for yourself, this whole other way of showing up opened up to you that was actually within your control.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Remember when you said we can't control our kids and what they are or aren't doing.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: We can only control what we are and aren't doing.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's anything you want to say to evolve to expand on that, we can come back to that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's just this idea of compassion being one of the first places to start.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um really what we just said already is a mom's awareness and mother's awareness around her own mental health issues, how aware we are, make or break our ability to show up and tend to our children's challenges.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: If we're not aware of what's happening for us, we're gonna miss a really big thing that happens when we try to tend to our children without first reflecting on what's what are we bringing to the table here?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: These are sort of big concepts.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if you haven't listened to part one, go listen because it will make these these summaries feel so much more um easy to access.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: We can do all the right things, which you were doing, but the way we are doing it or how we show up when we're doing it is what matters.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if we have self-awareness, if we're willing to be reflective reflective about what part might I be playing and all this chaos that's happening, when we have compassion, when we're willing to be mentors, meaning we go first.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know that thing where we're like, kiddo, you need to do X, Y, or Z, and then we're doing all the opposite things when we're willing to be mentors for our children, that makes the things we're we're the things we're doing for our children work better.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 12:05
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then the final piece, which well, there's two more really, the behaviors are what's so dangerous in in it's not the emotions that are dangerous.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's the behaviors, what we do with those emotions that can be dangerous.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and finally, when we can stay regulated, when our kids are dysregulated, we have a whole new opportunity to help our kids move through their pain.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: When we get dysregulated with them, it's like fuel to the fire.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: So those were sort of the really big themes that when I was re-listening to our first conversation, I was like, oh, these are gold nuggets.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Anything you'd add to those or expand on before we jump into your relationship.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's an awesome summary of our conversation, and I appreciate that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I guess what the only thing I really want to say again, I probably said this before, but I just really want to make it clear, clear, clear to the third, is regarding, especially because you started talking first about compassion and how that led to agency, and I agree with all of that, but I also want to reiterate that we can think we understand things.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I thought I understood what compassion was, I thought I was behaving in a compassionate way, by facilitating my daughter's treatment, by removing myself from my own life, by not taking care of myself, by doing all these things that I was being told to do, and they were important things by all the professionals that we were encountering.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it was far into our journey when I had that exchange with my therapist where I was, you know, once again, because as often the case, as we know, recovery is not linear.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you make, you know, two steps forward, five steps back, whatever it is.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I was complaining, for lack of a better word, about my frustration and whatever else.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know what else to do.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she looked at me and she said, you could try having some compassion.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I probably said that last time.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: It bears repeating this time because I can not adequately express the dismay that I experienced when she said that.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sharing that to say that was true in many parts of the journey, not only around compassion, but also the uncovering of what it meant to me for what self-care actually is.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I I think we just take for granted these really big words recovery, healing, compassion, empathy.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: We have an understanding of them and we take that for granted and we think that that's the full measure.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes it takes these kind of outside experiences for us to be challenged in ways we never imagined being challenged to have to develop not different, but deeper, I think, deeper definitions, which is a dry way of saying deeper relationships with these very important concepts about how we interact with one another and particularly the people we love most.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I just want to set the stage there because as you very eloquently pointed out, all of this is a journey.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And there is no, I haven't reached the I'm not the Buddha.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I am not, you know, now enlightened and I know all the answers.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, this kind of forward and backward thing remains true even all these years later.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: But when I take a moment to look back to where we were then compared to now, I mean it's very clear that the steps forward are infinite compared to, you know, the the the steps back and the patterns we fall back into because that's what we do.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're human beings.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they're hard to break because we've been doing them our whole life.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yes, when you certainly when I look back, it's it's night and day.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's actually a great way for us to start today because I think you're right.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think we don't really know what compassion is, certainly don't know what self-compassion is until we are we look at it until the word can become cliche.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a word, right?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I have my own way of teaching self-compassion or talking about what it is, but how do you describe what compassion and self-compassion is?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's a great question.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: What did you learn it was that you didn't consider when you was just a word floating around?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: When your therapist said you could try being compassionate, and in your mind, to your point, you're like, what are you talking about?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have been working my butt off for so long to give this kid what she needs.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that compassion?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, you could try being compassionate.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: What did you what was missing in that first definition that you now know is included in this idea or definition of compassion and therefore self-compassion?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I certainly want to make sure that I say doing those things was still important.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, that is like it is so I'm not like I shouldn't have done all that stuff.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what I'm saying.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just to be clear, because sometimes people get confused.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, um, I so first of all, I think it's much easier, especially for moms, and this was true for me, to think about how I wanted to show up for my daughter and the feelings I wanted to have for my daughter much more than what I had wanted to have for myself.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think many of us can relate to wanting to offer the things to our children that, you know, we don't seem important to us because it's like we're not important.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're not the important one here.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: But as I know you have so eloquently pointed out many times in the past, we really cannot give to the people we love most what we are unwilling to give to ourselves, not in the full true measure.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what was lacking in my understanding of compassion was that, first of all, I learned this from um Pemachodron that compassion exists between equals.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my first challenge to the idea of parenting uh as you know, an authority figure.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, parents have responsibilities as parents, but our children are people.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was not um experienced because it was something I had never experienced, in being viewed by a parental figure as sort of an equal because human beings are equal to one another.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: There is no actual hierarchy between human beings.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a concept I had no relationship to whatsoever.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the day my therapist said that to me, I st I was furious.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I stormed out of her office and we'd been working together for quite a while by this point.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we had the foundation laid for her to be able to challenge me in that way.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I was, I mean, really, I was enraged.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I came home and I, you know, started doing my research.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, turns out, you know, as she always was, she was right.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the part about beginning and what I had to do to develop, and not just about compassion, but this certainly I think is the easiest place to talk about it, is understanding that I had to develop that relationship with myself.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: That my underlying beliefs, courtesy of whatever we get genetics, there's generational traumas we've talked about, then add to the mix the patterns that my dad brought as a certain type of person, that my mom brought as a certain type of person, then add the death of a, you know, stillborn child on top of all of this.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now the the dynamics are kind of a mess, to be honest.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a little person who is not understanding because children can't understand these types of things, but certainly throwing up for no reason in my childhood, being brought to the hospital.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: We don't anything we think we're hiding, and I'm not saying we think this consciously.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wasn't sitting here again for like just let's say weight and body image issues.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't sitting here saying to myself, I am going to hide my weight and body image issues from my daughter.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that obvious.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it is a method like, oh, I'm gonna still look in the mirror, you know, still in my head call myself bad name, still go on 800 diet, still all the things.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and like we think that, you know, no one else can notice these things.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Our kids are so smart, they just feel, sense, perceive all of these things.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So related to self-compassion and not knowing where to start, not knowing I didn't even know, you know, any of this was really, again, the internal work to slow down to start becoming more conscious in a way that would be.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I talked meanly to myself.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think most of us know we do that and we're like, whatever, I deserve it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to to really dig into that dynamic and to work on changing that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because for better or worse, everything we want for somebody else is getting filtered through all of that.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: So energetically, pattern wise, communication wise, if we haven't learned how to communicate these things in a healthy way, all of that comes into play.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if we are consistently telling ourselves what an asshole we are and We suck and you're the worst person, forget about the worst mother on the planet.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: You don't even deserve to have a child.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: That energy, that whatever word you want to use there that works better for you, that impacts our relationships, whether we think it is or not, whether we want it to or not.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that is where for me, the self-compassion of learning to actually, I to be honest with you, to this day, I still shy away, although I do believe it, from saying like I love myself or self-love, because that is such a bridge too far at first.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to to talk to people who are now where I was then, I get it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because saying, you know, there's these extra like affirmations, I love my, I mean, you want to barf.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: You literally want to barf.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: You want to like stare at yourself in the mirror and say, I love you.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are you kidding me?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these things are so uncomfortable to the degree where it would prevent me from doing them because it's it's so bad.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So just start with something where I am going to allow myself the idea that I have some work to do in healing my relationship with myself.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's something that's easier for us to get behind.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think what's so interesting about self-compassion is that really we're talking about self-acceptance just as we are.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And many people, especially high achiever folks who haven't learned to sit with vulnerability and emotional discomfort, don't want to accept that they are how they are in the moment.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean as definition, like I have to sit with the fact that I suck.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're not, that's not what we're saying.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But oh, of course I feel tense in my body if I'm using words like I suck.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe even, well, of course I'm using words like I suck.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I heard my mother do.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or that's what, you know, like my definition of not sucking is getting everything perfect.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm not perfect, then of course I'm gonna think that I suck, right?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Self-compassion is real and compassion in general.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you're being compassionate with your daughter, we'll hear about her in a minute, or compassionate with ourselves, we have to be willing to be in the moment with ourselves, just as we are.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to like it, but self-compassion is just a holding, a tender holding of ourselves in that situation.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here I am looking at myself in the mirror and I'm saying all these horrible things to myself.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Of course I feel awful right now.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that pause.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're going to pause and be present in the moment, we're gonna feel really uncomfortable emotionally.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're gonna be tolerate the in order to be self-compassionate, we have to tolerate the feeling, the emotional discomfort that comes with that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, what we learned in episode or in part one of this was that when your daughter was going through so much pain, you wanted to get as far away of how it felt to be with her and it's so uncomfortable, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: You started doing, doing, doing.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to feel this pain.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want her to feel this pain.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have to do these things to fix it.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And really, what we learn, which we'll hear about in a moment, is that being compassionate, our ability to stay in a place of compassion and connection with our kids when they're feeling so uncomfortable emotionally, is a willingness to sit in the discomfort with them.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's compassion, self-compassion.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna sit in my own discomfort with myself.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is something that we are not taught.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I would add, I agree 100% with everything you just said.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I would add for those of us who had in whatever way it was unsafe childhood, yes, we've spent our entire existence learning to not do that.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So to undo for me, it was you know, four plus decades that go back.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, these patterns begin before we have conscious wherewithal thought around them.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't know these things are happening.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I knew I was reacting when my daughter would react, but I hadn't connected all the dots to understand why that was true or why it was a problem or any of that at the beginning.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I just want to, I know I keep saying this because it's really important to me.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want to keep reiterating for anyone who is now where we were then, there is no reason why you should know how to do this.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, if you had a particular type of childhood, you would have very purposefully spent your life learning how to exactly not do that in order to stay safe.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So creating safety around yourself and in yourself and for yourself, and bucking up against what you've always known is very, very hard.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels impossible at first, and it feels literally like a sort of death, and everything inside your body is screaming at you to not do that, to do what you've always done.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, and breaking that pattern is very, very hard just to validate that for people, and hard, yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, what so can you articulate can you give voice to specifically?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it might help be helpful for our listeners, the beliefs that you held about yourself and or motherhood that you entered motherhood with.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly about myself was sort of, and you know what's so weird about this?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like really when you start to talk to people, I mean, so many of us have the exact same ones, but somehow we still think we're the only one who I know.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like crazy.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is literally crazy that we think we're the only one, but whatever.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I really I had very low self-esteem, which of course I again, this wasn't a conscious thing, but like I was running from that my whole life.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: But very, very low self-esteem, but very high perfectionistic tendencies, as as often goes together.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: So is that like I'm not good enough?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not good enough.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be perfect, I'm unworthy.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then later, that was, you know, earlier in my life and through friendships, and you know, then you were start doing jobs and you've got to be like the perfect employee and never make a mistake.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Making a mistake was disastrous, you know.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna work 10 times harder.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get my fat ass to the gym.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go on the 80th diet again, you know, whatever.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: When I finally reach this thing out here somewhere, whatever that carrot is dangling, it's always something.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Finally, I'll be okay.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we never reach the carrot, or as soon as we reach the carrot, there's just another carrot or a better carrot, or whatever.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: We we never get there when we're operating from that sort of foundation.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: So then with when my daughter came, it was a lot of the same things, but now around mothering.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the, you know, wanting to be the perfect mother, never make a mistake, not wanting to replicate my relationship with my daughter that I had with my mother, and a lot of that underlying because I had already brought so much baggage with me, you know, not knowing how to deal with uncomfortable emotions.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I keep calling them negative.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've noticed this about myself, and I really want to stop doing that because that is still a judgment and it's just so ingrained.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I've heard myself keep saying it, just like negative coping skills.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Coping skills are coping skills for a reason because they work.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I really got to stop doing that, but they don't feel good, is the point.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, when we're young and we're not allowed to feel certain things, that's the message we get that they're bad, they're negative, they're wrong.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where then the shame starts coming in.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So all of that I carried with me into my mothering journey.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, Tracy, if you had been asked when you had, when you first became a mom in the very beginning, and someone had said, said to you, Tracy, what what does it mean to be a good mom?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: What do good moms do?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or what is a good mother?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think you would answer that question back then?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it would have been something about a self-sacrifice.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, great.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, only good mothers don't do anything for themselves, or you know, maybe they'll get a manny petty once everything else is, you know, taken care of.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Get a massage, because I did that, you know, I love a good massage as much as the next guy.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, a lot of like the people-pleasing dynamic.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And in in my dynamic, I don't know if this is true for everybody, but certainly with the childhood again that I had, um, my father could not abide disappointing me.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I learned that dynamic.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: I could not abide disappointing my daughter.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And mom could not disappoint their children.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in my dynamic, a lot, the that unhealthy relationship on both sides with food, particularly in my history, with my mom having so many, you know, things around how I looked and, you know, the first diet at 11 and all these things.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then my dad never wanting me to be disappointed.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go get a treat, whatever.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So these are some really mixed messages about food and weight and body image.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm just still in the cursory stages of learning how that experience our experiences literally like change like our gut and our biome and all of that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just now also coming to try to educate myself on that because there's still, I'll just be honest, there's still some dialogue under there, you know, about that business.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, that I'm still working on.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's, you know, that's hard stuff.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I want all of us to know that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're always working on it, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we we, you know, if if we stop doing something, then we stop, you know, uh having the benefits of that practice that's helping us be healthy.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to continue to work us, work on these things all the time.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so so you know, a big what you sort of I articulated that we talked about last time, and we're gonna talk about the opposite in a moment, or a contrary view in a moment, is a good mom self-sacrifices.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now that you've gone through all of this journey that you have have banned on, continue to be on, and we're gonna start to shift over to talking about how things look now and your daughter's health now and your relationship now, how would you today?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to put quotes around good mom because we know there are a million ways to be a good mother.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there's not one right way to be a good mother, but today, how would you answer the question about what does it mean to be a good mother?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would definitely say that the foundation to being a good mother and a good person is self-care in the fully expanded understanding and view of it that I know we touched on last time, and here we are touching on it again.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we take the time and invest in ourselves, and I don't mean again, it can, of course, be the other stuff.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: It can be, you know, fun things and massages and all of that is wonderful, but it is so not what I'm talking about in terms of being willing and dedicated to investing in understanding the dynamics that I learned, why I learned them as best I could, meaning with as much information as I could find, and how to go about changing those dynamics within myself so that I could have a healthier relationship with me to actually enjoy healthier relationships with all the people in my life, most especially my daughter, but it certainly is not limited to my relationship with my daughter.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I have friends that I've had now for many, many years.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I get chills every time I talk about them because it's so amazing to me that I have these people in my life.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is an outcropping of the work that I have done.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And whether energetic talk is your jam or spiritual talk, you know, whatever it is, doing this internal work that changes how we show up every single day of our lives not only feels good inside of ourselves for the peace and the contentment and the joy and the freedom, so much more freedom from being beleaguered by those relentless negative thoughts and criticisms and judgments of our own self, which then also end up leaking out of us.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Being free from that is such an amazing experience.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you naturally, I didn't go looking for friends, I didn't go looking for these friends.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: They came in front of me and like there they were.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then we were able to create these friendships and still have them today, almost a decade later.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's work too.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, healthy relationships are work, but it's not hard work.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's much more effortless, much less effortful.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: So a term that I use often, it's just sort of a spiritual slant on really what we're talking about is confirmation bias and all kinds of psychological phenomena, right?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: But but what I also often say is we get what we are, not what we want.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Get what we are, not what we want, which is another way of saying we have to be inside of ourselves a certain way in order to attract those things into our life.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, we can talk about that in a very spiritual, energy-based place, or we could talk about confirmation bias and other brain functions that literally lead to our, you know, our feelings lead to our thoughts and our actions and all those things, right?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um so I think it's an important thing that you're saying here is as soon as you or as you worked really hard on getting yourself internally to the place that really you knew you needed to go and that felt the best to you.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: These other things that you'd been working so hard at were less effortful.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: New kinds of people crossed your path and you connected with ease or more ease with them.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: You and your daughter's relationship blossomed.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Your, I mean, all kinds of things.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: So let's let's actually start, let's shift in that direction right now.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you could tell us, Tracy, how your relationship with your daughter has evolved.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if you wanted to, and I don't, you know, I'm gonna trust that you'll talk about whatever feels appropriate for the podcast, how her health and well-being evolved and how your health and well-being evolved, both separate from each other, but also as a secure attachment, as a mother-daughter unit.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love for you to take us there.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I I love to go there because our relationship now is totally one of my most favorite things ever to talk about.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I will just reiterate it it did take a long time.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these things are not patterns, not only on her side with the diagnosis and the healing and the learning and the things that she was going through, but on my side as well.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So when she came back from residential treatment, and that was summer before freshman year, so she was able to go back to school as a high school freshman, and this was very important to all of us.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's what she wanted, and we wanted that for her.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we had gotten an IEP in place and all of these things.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: They were making recommendations to do not what she wanted and really pressuring us to make other choices.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we were against that, and we felt very strongly we we want to give her the opportunity.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is what she wants.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're gonna support her because you know, we'll take it one step at a time, and that's what we did.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: And before you go to you were meeting her where she was.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really important thing to acknowledge here.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: You were really listening, right?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: You weren't you weren't preaching, which we can do when we think we know what our kids need more than they, but you really were listening to her and trusting that she knew what was best for her.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is that feel accurate, T?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I get it, you know, the other side on the system side, if that's what you want to call school, and people who work with, you know, families and students who are struggling like this, like they had their preconceived notions about what the right thing to do was.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's probably right for some people.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, but yes, we wanted to back up our daughter, and we had been through so much by that point, you know, already.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like, no, we're 100% backing what she wants.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if things, you know, have to change, then they'll have to change when the the timing warrants it.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, we 100% met her where she was, listened to what she wanted.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so anyway, long story short, is that she stayed in school and she graduated from high school and she was able to go off to college.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say, I think, from her perspective, it's a little dicey.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm not gonna put too many words in her mouth, but we have talked about this before.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, a big part of it honestly was time and maturity on her side.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she, you know, was 14, 13, 14 when this first started.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, think about your typical, you know, average 13, 14-year-old.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we just needed time.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Then when she got to college, and again, there were still roller coasters, but I think she realized that she wanted to stay.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: She, as as hard as it was, transitions are very hard for everyone.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: A.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: They're even harder for people who are struggling with depression and anxiety and all of these things.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very, very difficult transition for her, even though she wanted it.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she was where she picked where she wanted to go.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: We were able to facilitate that.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: She was in the driver's seat of all of that.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was still hard.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: So she realized, though, she didn't want to have to come home because you know, her health was taking a turn for the worst that was serious enough that she was not going to be able to stay.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that doesn't mean she suddenly like wasn't wanting to get better before, and now she suddenly did.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it was just, I think, a shift in her understanding, a shift in her insight about what was going on with her own self and what, you know, what she was doing and what she wanted to change and what she wanted to work on.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: So she was in her own therapy through all of this time.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she took a break when she went to school to get settled in and whatever, but that we got that started back up remotely with her therapist.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a process that requires a lot of dedication on patience on all the sides.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I get it because, you know, it's hard.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we can become impatient, we become become all kinds of things and really have to learn how to accept it's going to unfold however it unfolds.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: And again, another reason why the self-care aspect is so important, we probably touched on it last time, is the wherewithal and the staying power to continue to be able to show up in the way that's most healthy requires us to take care of ourselves so that we can do that for years, you know, down the line.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that, and I know she has said to me that going to college and that dynamic changing of not being here all the time, of realizing that she really did want to reach out to me and to us for support, that she missed us, that, you know, seeing our the things that we were doing in her own different light, because, you know, we had our view of what we were doing.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: And regardless of what our intentions are, that doesn't mean the person on the other end is having the same experience.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: So being able to be a little bit older, to have a slightly different perspective of everything that had gone on, to know that we were here for her no matter what, and only wanted to help her to be able to succeed at the things that she wanted to do.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think played a huge part in like starting to shift that dynamic.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Tracy, it's just as a reflection, it's really interesting.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're talking about a child's.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Brain and how kids' brains grow and develop as they get older, right?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a fact.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so what one brain is capable of at age 13 is different than what that brain's capable is at 17, 18, 25, 28, right?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: 40, 15, right?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, there is a point where our brains start growing around our mid-20s, but until then, we do not have fully formed frontal cortexes.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: So here's this daughter that's going through this process.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so interesting because as I hear you taking personal responsibility and ownership for your own health and well-being, I hear her doing that.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: She's now she had more capacity to do that because she was getting older and her brain is developing.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: A 13-year-old doesn't have the brain development to fully see perspective that way, right?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really like a like a parallel practice, right?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: You began to see her say, well, if I don't want to have to go home and if I want to stay at school, I have to make these choices that are within my control so that I can be well enough to stay at school.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you two were really learning this thing called agency at the same time, weren't you?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, in many ways we were.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I don't know, certainly, neither one of us, if we were having this conversation, you know, years ago, neither one of us would have been able to say it that way, which is part of your point.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were learning all of this.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, I mean, what I think is a great visual for people, at least it is for me, when we talk about more secure attachment.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like before, maybe you want to imagine us face to face, you know, and like all our limbs are kind of entwined and you know, all of those things.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this kind of push me pull you scenario going on, which I'm talking about the less healthier dynamics, lots of love.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: That is never a question.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Love is never the question, but it's always nice to say because sometimes we forget, like we take that for granted too, you know.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my edit one of my editors was like, Where's the love?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, duh.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, no, no, we need it like in the okay, that's a whole other conversation.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, okay, I thought we could just assume that.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, can't assume it.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, we're like face to face and we're having all of this, you know, and we're all entwined.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then over time, and it's not only about our mother-daughter relationship, but that's what we're talking about right now.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Over time, we extricated that and we kind of learned how to stand on our own, and now we're both facing forward right next to one another, moving, you know, in a healthier direction.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not easy and it doesn't happen overnight.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, we were learning how at our own time and in our own ways and all of that stuff, how to take responsibility for ourselves, which is of course still a work in progress, and how to support one another in healthy ways, how for how to me, for me to have a healthier mother aspect, energy, again, whatever words you want to fill in there, supporting her moving forward.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it it very much did become and still is a parallel journey, which is really, I guess, what we're saying from all of this conversation in terms of secure attachment and healthier relationships, is really the dynamic we want to have with our children, is their ability to witness us walking our walk and talking our talk.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: I never got that as a I mean, my my mom would literally say things to me like, do as I, you know, do as I say, not as I do.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's the stupidest thing a parent could ever say.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because sorry, mom, I mean, it's just true.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Not a judgment, but it's true.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, any kid who gets told that is exactly gonna go do exactly not what you told me to do.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it, you know, but yes, we certainly did begin this journey, you know, interestingly, for better or worse, sort of simultaneously.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I the the feeling or the image or the experience I have as I listened to you telling your story is one in which when your daughter was young and you were in this stage, you both felt very out of control.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: You both felt like you didn't have any control as to what was happening, right?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And as you have healed and done your work, and she has witnessed that in you and had more space, sort of breathing room, so that she can sort of have room to figure out what she wants and needs.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: So she's not, you know, she all that stuff.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you began to feel more in control.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: She began to feel more in control.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: So our children need to have the experience of us feeling in control.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what we're in control of is an important question to ask.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I have been muddling through this this entire conversation.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: But to have a child in a relationship with a parent where the parent feels out of control is a very scary situation for a child.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one of the beauties here.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about both and last time.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: We can both not know what's happening and not know what to do and feel in control because we're controlling our breath, or because we know where to find our therapist, or because we have a new way of talking to ourselves, right?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not, it's, you know, we can again, I think I want to make clear because I'm hearing you describe this so beautifully in your own work.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Having control doesn't mean we are controlling everything.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: It means that we're able to regulate our emotions.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: It means we're we know where to reach out for support and we're willing to ask for that support.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: It means that we can steady our breath when there's a perceived threat rather than a real threat.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's really what we're talking about here.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: And be aware, to your point, further, of what's going on inside of us so that we can begin to make choices about that rather than being uh powerless against those invisible forces at play within us.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: So once you become aware of the pattern, and for me, not everyone needs to understand where, why, how, you know, whatever, but that's kind of my jam.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: But most high achievers do want those answers.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think just saying, but you know, once you, yes, so 100%, it's not about controlling anything else exteriorly, it's about understanding just how little control I had on about my own self, to your point.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what makes us unsafe.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we had like even that feels like an oversimplification.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be kind of careful about that because you know that engenders all kinds of visions about other types of abuse and things that were not present in our dynamic.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, the point is the same.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Again, little children, babies in our bellies growing up, they do not have the ability to discern these kinds of things cognitively.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: So unsafe is just as experienced as unsafe.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly, yes, but but yes, so understanding what it really means to be in control of oneself, to take responsibility for oneself, to yes, develop practices to reattach my head to my body so that I could begin, and this was a very long process that is still ongoing, but so that I could begin to be aware of sensations in my body, to stop numbing long enough to have those sensations, etc.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: All of that plays into taking control of oneself.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, so beautifully said.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: How old is your daughter now?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: She will be 26 in December.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: And what are you?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna ask you a couple of just random off the cuff questions.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are you most proud of?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you really probably have answered this already, but with respect to how you mother her today.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I appreciate that because it's something that I still work on in therapy.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I often sit with my therapist when I get nervous that there's something I want to say that I think maybe will disappoint her, maybe will cause her to be angry or to have some kind of reaction.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: I second guess myself often still.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I sit with my therapist with my notepad and I say, How would a securely attached person express something like this?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: And she usually just asked me what I would say.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: And now, you know, I say it, but I still like to have the reassurance.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: I am most proud, and it's not perfect because she's my daughter.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: So she inherited people-pleasing tendencies, she inherited perfectionistic tendencies, but we can talk about these things or andor we lay the foundation.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: We love to actually take pen to paper and write letters to one another.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we will often write letters to one another to lay the foundation for things that we want to talk about or that we feel need to be expressed, but it it gets easier over time, by which I mean talking about things, because another aspect of a childhood like mine, and I know so many people struggle with this, is breaking the silence.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Breaking the silence is another pattern that is very, very difficult if you do not have a history of being allowed to be heard, let alone, you know, just making yourself heard.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um now, like I'm gonna be seeing her very soon, and I'm going to sit with her and reiterate.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to remind her, because I was never reminded, that she is allowed to disagree with me.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: She's allowed to have her own opinion.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's allowed to do the things that she thinks are right for her.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to condemn that or judge that or whatever.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: She's her own person.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: So she doesn't need to be afraid or unwilling to communicate or express those things with me.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: As close as we are, we, I mean, obviously, I'm still her mom.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there's still that mother-daughter dynamic.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, we're we're still two human beings who are coming together, who love each other.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's nice to be reassured to hear, again, because I never heard it, that there isn't anything she's going to say.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: Of course she can hurt my feelings.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I can hurt her feelings.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're human beings, but none of that is going to break our bond.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love your commitment to revisiting that over and over and over with her, because there is so much that we can take for granted.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she knows that now.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, maybe, maybe not.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Even if she does, nice to be reminded.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's one takeaway, hopefully, that our listeners can is just to if if we have listeners who are really working hard to mother their children in different ways than they were mothered, to remember that it's always okay to revisit the values with your children.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: I value your own opinion separate from mine.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: I value that you're gonna have different opinions, different ideas.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're not always gonna be comfortable for me, but they're still welcome and worthy.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious about them.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like that reminder is so important.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how does she inspire you?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: How doesn't she inspire me?
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I know this would probably make her so uncomfortable, but I swear I admire her so much for so many reasons.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she has worked so hard, she's got such a big heart, she's such a kind person, funny, talented, going after, you know, her dreams.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's just so much that she's been through that has shaped, you know, who she is and how she sees the world.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: And those things inspire me.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: I learn from her all the time.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, pragmatic things like about the environment, you know, and stuff like that, because she's young and you know, all those things.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, just as a human being, her attitude and her point of view really inspire me.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: She's much more accepting, especially of other people.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she struggles with the self-acceptance still, but she's much more accepting and less judgmental at her age, um, you know, than I was.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I don't know if she'd agree with me.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, she's just um we and we just have we have so much fun together.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: We laugh a lot, we love doing some of the same things, you know, she's the only person who will play Scrabble with me.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so many great, great things that just inspire me to keep going in this work because, you know, it it's um feedback loop, right?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the more fun we have together, the more fun we want to have.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean we get to see each other as much as we necessarily would like, but we take advantage of that whenever we can.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I really want our listeners who are in the thick of it right now or who know someone who's in the thick of it to remember that even if you can't imagine what you're describing now, right?
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: You can get there.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's so important to remember.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when you were in the thick of it with her, did did all this stuff you're experiencing now feel possible?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Not even in the slightest.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't even know what half this stuff meant or more.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe two thirds, maybe four, nine, maybe 99%.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: I really don't know.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, you just take one step.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, don't judge your experience.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's this adage, right?
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Don't look at somebody's epilogue if it's you're on your first chapter.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like don't compare, just know, you know, that each step you take, you're you're taking a step on the journey.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the small, consistent practices that get you there.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: Before we wrap up, we didn't spend much time on your creative endeavors, but I I think creativity and a practice in creativity, which involves play.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a form of play, is really important for our mental health and well-being.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to hear what your creative practice looks like.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe our listeners, I mean, they will certainly make sure they know where to find you, but maybe some of these things will resonate for them.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to us about that?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it took me a long time, as I said, to acknowledge why I might have to have self-care, period.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had to get quiet and try to figure out what would that even mean for me, because unfortunately, no one can tell us, you know, what we should do, really.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: So when I finally wrapped my head around the fact that once again, my therapist was right and I needed to do this, I got quiet and kind of tuned in to my intuition and creativity, like return to creativity was the thing that bubbled up.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: I had been an extremely creative child, and my father was an extremely creative person, very talented in many things.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I just got the message that if you can't do it for a living or you're really not talented at it, it's sort of a waste of time.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like we need to grow up and take responsibility and pay the bills, and you know, we do have to pay the bills, whatever.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: But when I return to creativity, at first, yes, it was just fun.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my chosen practice is creative art journaling.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like diary keeping with visuals, you know, and words and stuff like on steroids, um, or think maybe scrapbooking, but also completely different.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: So like it's not a one-on-one thing.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, it I was just started, I dove in, you know, just with whatever I had on hand.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: There was such joy in getting color back on the page, getting statements about boundaries and about my worth and about acceptance and about letting go and all these things that were again big ideas conceptually that I hadn't really wrapped my brain around yet.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it was super fun.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: A B, however, was that people like me who have a tendency to be perfectionistic and who have a very strong inner critic, it also concretized very specifically that negative voice I had inside my head so that it gave me the opportunity to very clearly hear what it was saying and develop a practice that has also shifted over time.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just understand it more now because then shame comes up.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not about like making the shame go away.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's about like this is a normal part of our experience.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's changing your relationship to it that's so powerful.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: So changing my view on what you know coping means, changing my view and having this creative tool if I'm in a shame cycle and using it to work through that and all of those things.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it really plus then down the line, I had the opportunity to start teaching it locally.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it has led to a community of people who I bring together and we inspire each other in this way and we talk about letting go of our perfectionism.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: We talk, you know, about these things, and we just have a lot of stinking fun.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um it it really has been one of the most important tools in my toolkit and one I still go to as often as I can.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that changes over time.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like sometimes we're, you know, busy and sometimes we're not, but it it is 100% something I turn to on a regular basis still all these years later.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, play is, you know, in in the research as well, is it is an anecdote to depression and anxiety, right?
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can learn to take ourselves less seriously.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: We can let go, which is an annoying term when we're not actually aware of what we mean from a somatic place, let go, but when we can use art, creativity to just play without having to create some perfect end result.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: We really allow ourselves to access a part of ourselves that we're not accessing when we're in the midst of an episode of depression or anxiety.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I just um I just love that.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just love it.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: I my version of play um is through, I I mean, I I put on some music and you will see me not be able to sit still in my chair.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now let me be clear.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: I am not a from the outside perspective, I'm not a good dancer, right?
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: However, I freaking love to dance and I love to dance in a way that doesn't even make any sense.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think any version of that for our listeners, it's a letting go of ego, it's a playfulness, it's using materials or music or your senses to to explore.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: It is invaluable for our mental health.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um I couldn't agree more.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: And from the outside, I'm not a capital A artist, as I said, not someone who makes art for sale.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, that's not the point.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that in and of itself is a wound a lot of people have.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: And there have been tears shed in my kitchen over someone like getting over that hump of allowing themselves to even engage in this process.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: And even myself, I have a post-it on the wall right over there because I used to do my art in here that says my art is fun, because it had gotten to the point again, my perfectionism, this is going back many years, but all of that other and the judgment was winning out.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I forgot that I'm allowed to just have fun.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to remind myself.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, I mean, that's the thing.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, it doesn't matter what it looks like.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, are you having fun with the process?
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and letting yourself do that over and over and over again, you are healing and you don't even know it.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're just having fun.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you have this incredible book called Bloodlines.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um where can people find your book?
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: Where can people find more of you, Tracy?
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: If people are coming out of this conversation and just yearning for more, where can they find you and your book?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the book is available anywhere books are sold.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: So wherever your uh preferred seller is, you can find it in both uh print and digital formats.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: And on my website, it's tracyyocuscreates.com.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's my name, T-R A C E Y, Y O K A S, and the word creates, is a vast plethora of resources for mental health, for art, for wellness, for inspiration.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's a toolkit page where I talk about, you know, my classes.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just really invested in destigmatizing this conversation as a whole and also creating community where people can come together and feel safe exploring their vulnerability, exploring their authenticity, exploring their values.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't use that word until I was in my 40s.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I mean, there's just so much good stuff.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm very, I have a workbook that I created.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you are someone who is supporting a loved one with a mental health diagnosis, it's completely free.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: You can see where to get it on the website.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, really passionate about just sharing parts of our journey that are going to help other people.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll put all of that in the show notes so people can find links to you.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Tracy, I am so grateful for your double dip with me.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: I am too.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hey listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, I would love to request that you share it with one mom out there who you know might benefit.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are a lot of women who feel like they're mothering alone.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes all of our help to make sure that everyone feels like they have what they need to both feel successful and also feel supported.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: So please take a moment and just share it with one person.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if you feel inclined, go ahead and rate and review this podcast because the reality is that the more reviews we have and the higher ratings we have, the more this podcast is shared with other moms out there, which makes it more easy for them to find us.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks again for your help with this.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm assuming you do find this podcast helpful because you're still here at the end listening to this memo.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for being here and share away.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sending love.