Latest / The Bob Lefsetz Podcast / Lynn Goldsmith

Transcript

Lynn Goldsmith · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Starts podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: My guest today is photographer Lynn Goldsmith. Lynn, you have
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: two new books. Tell me about that.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Well, one of them came out in October of twenty
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: twenty three, which is a book called Music in the Eighties,
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: and the other book isn't out yet, it'll be out
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: by November first, and that's a deluxe tashi and publication
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: on Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band with the
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: possibility of you know, buying a print with the book.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: It's different than the Music in the Eighties book, which
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: is Rizzoli, and that's a kind of normal what we
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: call trade coffee table photo book. And the Book of
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the Eighties was actually a book that I never intended
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: on doing because I really didn't want to think about
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the eighties. I had a pretty bad attitude. And it
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: was only because my publisher really wanted me to put
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: something together that I realized what an amazing musical decade
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: it was in terms of so many different types of
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: music all gaining real popularity. You know, wasn't just like
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: jazz was in the background. Herbie Hancock was having you know,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: his probably biggest time in terms of selling records as
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: well as Miles Davis's record, But then you had all
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: this new electronic music along with rap, you know, with
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: the Beastie Boys. So as I went through it and
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I realized just how free and open and how many
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: things were possible in that decade, it got me off
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: of thinking about the bad fashion and the bad hair,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: which it kind of turned me off to the eighties.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Now, your other book is about Springsteen. Why Springsteen? Now,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: you had a love relationship with him, but that was
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: in the past. Why now?
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Because Benedictashin of Tashi in Publications wanted to do a
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Bruce book and I wanted if I was going to
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: do something, I wanted it to be Bruce and the
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: E Street Band. And I thought that Tashion probably does
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: the most beautiful job of production, and so I asked
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Bruce if he wanted, you know, wanted me to do that,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: and he did. So that was why I felt that
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: at this time, to kind of bring back a moment
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: that happened, you know, almost four decades ago, and which
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: is so seminole in how Springsteen fans are so dedicated,
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: you know, it's part of their dedication, is the whole
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: darkness on the edge of town period, which is what
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: this book focuses on.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: So why not, Yeah, Okay, I have a couple of
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: tash In books, but there were gifts. Tell me a
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: little bit more in my addings, a little bit more
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: about tashi and how the production, how the deal, how
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: many they print.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a limited edition. I think it's fifteen hundred copies,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: and you can buy it with the print or without
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: the print, and they're really considered collector's items that hopefully
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: increase in value for the buyer. But the real thing
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: is does when books are like sacred objects to you
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: to create one that's really, you know, kind of like
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: a work of art and goes very deep and is
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: printed with the best printers in the world, you know,
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: that's that's that's a real gift for a photographer. So
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: tash In books are what we call trade books, which
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: is what I mentioned on music in the eighties. I
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: think the retail price of music in the eighties is
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know, seventy dollars or something. I'm not familiar exactly,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: but the tashi In book is usually, you know, like
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: fifteen hundred or two thousand dollars, So you have good
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: friends who gave you books.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Are books lucrative for you?
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I don't do them to make money. With all the
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: time that I put into making the book, I'm thinking
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: about the fans who I feel deserve deserve the best
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: that I, or any photographer who's worked with an artist
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: that they love can give them. My time could be
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: spent making money much quicker without as much struggle. But
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: the fact is I also end up with something that
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: I consider to be a beautiful compilation of my work,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: and that's generally how most photographers are. The publishers know
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: full well that we all want books. Artists, whether you're
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: a photographer or whether you're Eye Way Way, whoever you are,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: books books add to your cachet, your ego as an
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: artist wants to see your work in a book form.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: So the motivations aren't financial ones. They are for the publishers.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, since we've talked about your new books, how
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: did you meet Springsteen?
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I met him in nineteen seventy two when Rolling Stone
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: assigned me to photograph him for I think the name
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: of the article was sign Up a Genius Month or
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: something like that, something about signing up a genius yeah.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: And you had a romance with him. Was the romance
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: immediate or was that years down the line?
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: It was years down the line.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: So how did it ultimately turn into a romance?
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I guess, like anything else, timing and having an appreciation
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: of the other person's humor, their work, and being ready
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: or wanting to be in a relationship like anybody else.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: So, since you were there from seventy two, the first
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: album came out, Greetings from Asbury Park, The big breakthrough
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: is in seventy five. Did you anticipate Bruce would become
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: as big as he did?
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Oh? I always thought that Bruce, particularly because of the
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: live performances, was different than anybody else. And I would
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: have hoped that with his talent and his hard work
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: and his great desire to really be be it an
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: important songwriter, a lyricist, that you know, that he would
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: gain that because there's plenty of artists who have become
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: quite big that don't necessarily have you know, all of
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: those talents.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, My favorite swing seen albums are the second Wildie, Innocent,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: and Darkness. You know there have been all these documentaries.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: There was one about Darkness. Why did you focus on
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: darkness in the book.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Because I felt that that was a really important time
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: in Bruce's life, in the life of the East Street Band,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: and it was a seminal moment where, you know, where
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I watched that Bruce could play in Middle America to
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: a hall that maybe held three hundred and if he
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: was lucky, there were thirty people in the audience. But
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: he still did a three or four were our show
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: and gave its all, and so did the band. Bruce
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: didn't just become who he is on Bruce alone. There's
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: the energy of those members who who supported him in
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: his real search and struggle to be the best that
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: he could be. So my experience during the Darkness on
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: the Edge of Town made me want to show Bruce's
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: relationship with the band. You know, most books on Bruce
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: photo books focused just on Bruce, and I understand that,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: but you know, I really feel that there was you know,
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: there was it's called Bruce Spreingstein and the Eastreet Band.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not just Bruce Springsteen. And I think
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: that's also why Bruce wanted me to do the book.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I think that he wanted to have a record of
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: that time.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, the book about the eighties you were a rock
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: fan from a very young age, so you talked about
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the bad heir of the eighties. With this amount of distance,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: how do you feel about the music in the eighties.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, I, you know, I thought I kind of made
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: it clear that when doing the book and realizing all
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: the different genres, you know, and I decided to do
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: it alphabetically. So you see Banana Rama next to Barry Manilone.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, there were just I myself had a hit
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: in the eighties, at least in the UK as the
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: recording artist Will Powers, so you know, and that was
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: electronic music for the most part. So you know, it's
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: it's that there were there was ska music that was
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: coming up, and then reggae really sort of exploded in
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty when unfortunately, you know, Bob Marley made it
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: clear to the world that he had brain cancer and
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: not a long time to live. There were a lot
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: of artists, including you know, the Police, who got a
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: certain amount of radio airplay and other things which I
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: don't know, you know, before before that, reggae was popular
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: amongst a certain group of people, but it didn't have
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: mass appeal. I'm talking about mass appeal like the way
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Madonna had it and Michael Jackson. So you're talking pop
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: music and then soul music also. So what other decade
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: had so many different kinds of popular forms of music.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: I can't think of another.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to the seventies. How did you
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: get involved with Grand Funk Railroad.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I was directing a television show called in Concert for ABC,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and Joshua White was the main director. And I had
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: told him because ABC was going to do their first special.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Normally we just did concerts, but they were going to
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: do with a number of artists, and so this was
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: going to be the first time that the whole show
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: was dedicated to one act. And I said that I
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: wasn't that interested anymore in directing just concerts. I wanted
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: to do things, make films that were more documentary. And
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: so Grand Funk Railroad had just released an album called Phoenix,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: and so I asked josh to speak with ABC about
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: me doing a portion of the show at Phoenix House
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: with Grand Funk Railroad, and they approved that, and I
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: met Andy Cavalieri, who had just started managing them because
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: they had left their manager, Terry Knight. So I have
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: had a certain amount of experience in marketing and publicity.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: In sixty nine, I did that at Elektra Records, and
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I made films for them, and I made radio spots,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: and you know, I understood from the record label aspect
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: what needed to be on to sell a record. And
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: so Andy was really handsome, and I was tired of ABC,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: and I'd saved up enough money that I said to
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Andy that I had this idea for Grand Funk, and
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: if he could get them to do everything that I say,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that they'd have a number one hit record in all
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: the trains three trades that were at the time, Record World,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: cash Box, and Billboard, and they'd never had a hit single.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: So and I was willing to do it for nothing
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: except when when I said they would get a number
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: one hit, I wanted to be the co manager and
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Andy had really no experience in marketing or anything outside
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: of really setting up tours. So I also needed Andy
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: because having worked in the music industry even in nineteen
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: sixty nine, I was very clear that in order to
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: get things done, being female was not going to be
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: as strong as having a guy go in there and
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: get the budgets and what's needed to make things happen.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: So I was very fortunate to that Grand Funk with
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Phoenix had failed so badly that they were open to
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: everything that I wanted to do. And the first thing
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I wanted to do was have them write a song
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: called We're an American band.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Let's slow down the story for a second. You get
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: involved with Grand Funk, not only are they on the
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: downside of their career, this is a band that was
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: hated by critics. It was a meat potatoes band from
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: day one. You're someone who worked at Electra Records Grand
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Funk Railroad. Did you say, well, this is a way
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: for me to get in. Were you turned off by
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the kind of music? What do you think?
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: If anything, I didn't really think much about their music.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: What I thought was that they were the kind of
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: band that basically blue collar workers and a certain economic
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: strata of people would save up their money to come
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: hear them play. And I knew that strata. I'm from
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Michigan like they are. They're from Flint, and I'm from
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: inner city Detroit, so I felt like I knew who
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: their audience was. And I felt that Mark Farner was
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: a really good guitar player with an amazing voice. But
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: I was not, and there were songs that I liked,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: but that isn't what kind of motivated me to really
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: dedicate my life to try to making them number one.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: It was that Andy was so handsome and I was
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: in love with him and wanting to be around him
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: all the time.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, the only Cavalier I know is Felix from the Rascals,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Now I know, now, I never heard of this guy.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Who was This guy?
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Andy had been their tour manager and he was and
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: he also managed me when I was will Powers, I
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: needed to have a manager, but unfortunately Andy uh Andy
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: passed away during the recording of my album, and I
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: worked with Andy and Grand Funk for a number of
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: years and uh over those years, as they became very successful,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Don Brewer really thought he knew better than me and
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: wanted to do things, wanted the producer that he wanted,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: and I just I couldn't go along with it, so
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I walked away.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Let's go back. So you're saying it was one hundred
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: percent your idea to write a song we're an American band.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. The idea behind it was that I would
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: create a certain kind of stage show. I would make
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: videos that films actually that we could send out to
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: army bases across the world, that if they just wrote
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: a song, a simple song, we're an American band. At
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that time, all the English bands were taking over, and
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: I thought that gives them. They wrote the Mark actually
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: wrote the song, not Donnie. Donnie added to it, but Mark,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: being generous, gave him the publishing for it. But it's
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: really Mark Farman. And it was also my idea not
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: only were an American band, but because they were hated,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: as you pointed out so much by the press and
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: disrespected and nobody really wanted to hear or talk about Grandpak.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: They were sick of the Terry Knight lawsuit. So I
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: knew that Todd Rungdren, who was a friend of mine,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: needed money because this new TV studio that he had
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: built was not making any money. And I knew that
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: the press at that time thought, basically Todd is God.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: He was an artist that everyone respected and had integrity.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: So I knew that press wise, you know that they
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: would respond going to Todd Rundgren and grand Funk. You
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: know that makes no sense. We have to take a
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: look at this. So it was really it wasn't that
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: brilliant it just came out of me. You know, it
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: seemed common sense.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Well, I actually would say it was brilliant because it
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: was also a great track, but a little bit slower.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: You come up with the idea.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Well, I didn't write the track.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: And I know, but I'm going there. You come up
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: with the idea, how is it presented to the band,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: what is their reaction? And how long until they write
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the song?
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, the song was done like right away, and I
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: didn't go to the band. Andy made it very clear
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: to me that it would be much better if everything
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: went through him the band. There was a lot of
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: especially with Donnie. People don't want to listen to a
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: quote unquote girl. You know, their macho, and so Andy would.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Andy had never and neither had the band ever heard it.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Even Grant Todd Runggren, they didn't know anything. But Andy
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: would go and present it to them and convince them
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: that they should do it. And that was fine with me.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to do the work. I didn't care about,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: you know, anything else. I didn't care if Andy called
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: me a publicist or the marketer or whatever they wanted
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: to do. I just wanted to manifest my ideas. I
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: was driven to do that, and I had a whole
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: plan in place where there was a lighting guy named
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Jack Calmys, who I designed like an American flag backdrop.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: You know. I had this whole idea for what it
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: would be and what the show would be and how
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: when people buy their tickets after you know, a hard
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: week at work. This was going to be a party.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: You know, this was a celebration of America and a party.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: You know. I'm I'm from the city that, like you know,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: is is known for cars much less for soul music,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: and uh, you know, it's a It's America. So I
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: guess that's how it happened. But I also felt it
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: happened because I thought there were just so many English
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: bands getting attention and everyone wanted to wear velvet jackets
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: and you know, be like the English rockers. So it
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: was a simple idea. But then when when they made
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: a demo of the song and I listened to it
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: and I was like, that's it, you know, Connie from
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Little Rock, the whole deal I went perfect. So I
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: could just run with all the marketing things, you know,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: getting taking pictures and I wasn't really a photographer. I mean,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: I'm still I think I'm a conceptualist. I don't think
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: I'm a photographer. But I set up things because I
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: needed to get them major press where I would have
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Mark give blood at the Red Cross and I would
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: take pictures of it, you know, because I really felt
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: that if you could hand the press stories that had
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: some angle and need on it and good pictures, they'd
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: run it. And they did so that and I think,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: you know, we did a stage show that for its
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: time was hadn't really been done before. I went to
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: the Library of Congress in DC and I got all
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: the stock footage of a train coming at you. So
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: how the show opened as the audience came in was
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: this train. I had a film a screen come down.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: We carried movie projectors with us on tour, and you know,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: I would we'd project this train coming right at the
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: audience and then bam they hit the stage. So those
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: were you know, I was so excited seeing all my
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: ideas manifested that that was actually the best reward. And
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: you know, thank god they did have number one in
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: all three traits. Okay, Todd, Right, I look back now
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: and I think I had a.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Lot of I think that's but we'll get to that
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: that's your whole career. I discussed it with Todd. Todd
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: told me that because Tod is, you know, uber talented,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: he can write the songs, play them record. He said,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: the song was completely done when it came to him,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: all record it.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what I told him. Because Todd didn't
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: want to do it and he needed money, and I
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: was the one who hired him, and I had to
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: convince him because we both lived up We had a
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: place up in Woodstock, and Todd it gets real cold
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: in the winter. So I said, look, you'll go to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Criteria in Miami. It's a great studio. Ten days, it's warm.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: You're going to get one hundred thousand dollars for ten days.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: And I knew that his sound wouldn't interfear. I really
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: felt that, even though he was very different than the
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: guys in Grandfa because a lot of artists who work
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: with Todd have problems with Todd because he's very He's
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: doing it Todd's way, but Todd was he was going
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: to do the best he could do. But he was
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: really there as a great engineer. But he also mixes
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: amazing and he's you know, I just intuitively felt it
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: was right for both grand Funk and for Todd.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: How did you meet Todd?
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: When I came to One of the things that I do,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: as I mentioned, I was will powers Is. I wrote
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: songs and sang and I went to do some work
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: when they were just building out the studio at Secret Sound,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: and Todd was under the board. He was basically building
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: the board when I came in and we met and
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: we became really good friends.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're from Michigan. How do you get from Michigan
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: to New York.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: By playing oh a being? You know you? I had
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: gone onto La for a minute, and I didn't feel
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: that was very mean. And the second I well, first
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: of all, I had already had experiences in New York.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: When I was in college. I had a band called
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: The Walking Wounded, and we used to go to New
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: York to play or to open for certain people a cafe,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: wa and other places. And my sister is a painter
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and by night she was a waitress at Maxis Kansas City,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: so you know, I and she was also John Cale's
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: girlfriend who was in the Velvet Underground, So you know,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I felt really comfortable in New York. It was far
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: more my cup of tea. I like to work and
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: make things, and I like having friends who are artists,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: so you know, it definitely felt It's always felt like home.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: So how does a nice Jewish girl end up in
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Nashville today?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: By mistake? I asked myself that quite often, and I
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: leave here probably at least once a month for a
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: week to go to New York, if not more. I'm
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: still trying to get used to the South. I have
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: a thing that I believe in called the pattern interrupt
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: and that's where you put yourself in positions that are
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: really uncomfortable to you, that don't feel right to you,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: and that should shake up your creativity. And so the
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: move to Nashville was in part because of that, and
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: also moving to Nashville provided me the oppert tunity to
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: have the kind of workspace that I've always wanted. I
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: need at least like eight thousand square feet, so you know,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: that's that's like i'd be. I'd be working for the
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: bank if I was in New York, you know, and
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: in LA with taxes, that wasn't really feasible. Although as
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: you get older the weather seems to be nice, but
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: it did you know, I am scared by fires and earthquakes.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: So you know, so I'm trying this. We'll see.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, So how many years have you been in Nashville? Uh?
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Five? But I would say the first two years we
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: weren't here that much. Who we my husband denied? Okay, yeah, and.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Your husband all? I mean, I don't know anything about
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: the husband. Long you've been married.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Twenty three or four years?
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: And what is he?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Not quite what is February nineteen ninety nine?
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: And what does he do all day?
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: He says, And he plays his guitar, he reads books,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: he sculpts in the basement where his woodwork room is.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: He only gets a little spot in the workspace. I
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: get all the big stuff. And he was an architect,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: so he designed our house. And you know, it's really
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: made for the way that we want to live. And
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: that's a real pleasure.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: You're talking about the eight thousand square feet. Are the
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: eight thousand square feet in your house? Or is that
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: a separate location all in my house? How much property
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: do you have?
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Two acres?
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: So the workspace is that part of the house or
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: a separate building?
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: No? That what we did here because I wanted it
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: to be all in one work live, so most of it,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: you know, we live in maybe like fifteen hundred square
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: feet of the eight thousand square feet.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: And what is in the rest of the space, the
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: other sixty five hundred square feet.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: You got to come and visit. I have a print
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: studio where I make large scale prints. I have a
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: paint studio as I'm a painter. I have a photo studio.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: I have a gallery. It's a private gallery. I used
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: to have an actual brick and mortar gallery in Colorado,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: so in the house. We made a private gallery online.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: It's called rock and Roll Photo Gallery dot Com. And
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: it's not just my work, it's the world of uh,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: A lot of different photographers who who I personally think,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: you know, that collecting their work is a value. We had.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: We have Terry O'Neill, you know, we had Terry before
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: he passed, Gary Mankowitz, A lot of individuals who have
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: made uh great images. Uh. So it's not just about
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: you know, Lynn Goldsmith. But we made it private because
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: I just really want to have people come who truly
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: want to collect.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: So how does a rock and roller meet an architect? Oh?
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: He my husband designed and built about five buildings at
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: least homes recording studio uh Art building a home in
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Seattle for the recording artist Steve Miller. And Steve was
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Steve is a really is a close friend of mine.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: He and his wife at the time, and I would
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: They lived in sun Valence, and so I would go
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: to visit Steve and Kim for holidays and whatever, and
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: that's how I met Sid.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, and how did you ultimately decide to get married
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: around age fifty, you know, as opposed to the previous
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: period of eligibility of thirty years.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, I knew that I didn't want to get married
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: until I was fifty. I really work was always number
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: one for me. And most men who want to get
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: married want to have children, and they want you to
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: be there for them. And that's wonderful, you know, I'm
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: all for it. But I wanted to really make my
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: focus on my work. And I didn't think that being
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: a mother and a wife that I could be a
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: good one if I had that drive that I had
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: work wise, so I made a choice.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: And did you ever have the urge to have children?
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, but then I would think about, you know,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: the reality of being a responsible, good parent, and I
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: don't want to mess up another human being, you know,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: I wanted, I would like to, and I always sort
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: of thought that the world was not going to be
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: a great place for what would be my grandchildren or
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: great grandchildren. I've always felt that we're headed for a
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: very hard time. And I'm very grateful that I lived
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: when I did and I lived the way that I did.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: But I made up my mind long ago that I
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: would get married when I was fifty, and that's what
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're someone who's had quite a career, but you
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: came of age during the mis era, Women's liberation. The
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Ultimately we have Cheryl Samberg telling you to lean in
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: and then other people saying you can have it all.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: What's your take on all that?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe some people can. You know, I can't really
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: answer for everyone. I just know what I'm capable of
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: or feel comfortable with, and I really didn't think that
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: I could be I thought I had to make a
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: choice be a good mother or you know, do my work,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: and that I couldn't do both. There are people who
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: I'm sure think they can and they can have it all,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: and maybe they can, but that I knew, very I
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: knew that wasn't me.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Does your sister have children? No, so both you and
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: your sister don't have children. You think that has anything
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: to do with your upbringing?
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Not really. My mother was a single working mother, but
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: she did marry when I was fourteen fifteen. My sister
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: wanted to have kids, and there was a period of
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: time where we even more so her. We went over
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: to bet and adopt, did foster parented some children, and
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: that just showed me, and I think has showed her
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: quite clearly that you know, parenting isn't for everybody. We tried.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, in your book, you say your sister is older,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: you say she is the pretty one, et cetera. Now,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: when I moved to Los Angeles, my sister was going
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: to graduate school here. It's so I could stay with
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: her a little bit. To what degree having an older
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: sister or an entree help you to get established?
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Oh? I think it helped me a lot. My sister
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: she's very different than me, but you know, she was
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: friends with people like I mean, that's how I met
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Carol King James Taylor. That was when she lived in
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: LA She designed clothes for a period of time for
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of bands, just her artistic sensibilities have always
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: been really influential in my life.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: So what is about her that she ends up being
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: in all these spots. She must have something, some magic,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: some blitz with something.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: Well, she was really she was talented, she was pretty,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: she was she was beneficial in two musical groups in
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: how she dressed them. So, you know, it was a
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: smaller world then, and I just think that people who
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: people who are attractive have an easier time than being
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: brought into the inner circle, so to speak, then those
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: who aren't. It's just a fact of life. You know.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: We all have our pluses and minuses. And so there
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: are people who let's say, are overweight or of a
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: body type that isn't considered Well today it's different, but
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: let's say back then, but then they might have been
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: really funny and people wanted them around because they're really funny,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: or they're really smart and they're well read and they
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: inspire you because of it. So, you know, my sister
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: and I were always very much independent artists, and I
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: think that inspired some people to want to hang with
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: us and some people not. You know, I can really
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: only answer, you know for me.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're doing a zoom but this is not visible
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: to my audience, but there are pictures online and you
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: let your hair go white. How big a decision was that, Well,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: it's a bit.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: It continues to be a decision. I can clearly tell
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: when I'm not as accepted as I might be. If
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: I had my long, dark hair. During COVID, my hair
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: started coming in white, and I thought, whoa, I have
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: white hair. I don't have gray hair. I've got like
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: white hair. I thought that'd be fun to see, so
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I let it grow out, like why diet during COVID?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: And then I decided that like, this is who I am,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: and I don't want to keep dyeing my hair or
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: trying to be young. And if in moments I do,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: I can put on a wig. So I wear wigs
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: and if I feel that way, and if I don't,
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: I have my white hair. Yeah.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Do people treat someone differently if they have white.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Hair, Well, I guess it depends on your age. When
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Gaga had white hair, they didn't. They still treated her
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: as Gaga. I think that you know, when you're my age,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: which I'm seventy five, and you have white hair, they're
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: going to experience you differently. I mean I didn't really
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: know that people thought I was maybe fifty when I
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: was seventy because I had dark hair, you know, you
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: were a hat And yeah they do, but I don't
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: really care.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: And what about other ways to keep young? Plastic surgery, liposuction,
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: et cetera. Are those things you have a take on.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe if I didn't have a loving husband, you know,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: and I thought I might be more attractive, maybe that
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: would influence me. But I really feel like I want
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: to see myself age. I don't really want to have
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: one of those faces with lips that you know have
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: been injected number of times or you know, I'm I'm
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: I just want to be I'm pretty grateful, you know,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: for what I have, and I don't really care anymore.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I do. I mean I say I don't really care,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: but you know, sometimes I do. I feel like, Oh,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: I'm not being invited or oh I'm not included because
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: they think I'm old.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how about the reverse? You know, this is more
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: psychological than appearance. Are you ever with younger people and say, well,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: maybe I don't belong here anymore?
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely, I'm with older people and I say maybe
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: I don't belong here anymore. I I just am not
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: interested for the most part in the things that seem
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: to motivate, but I am interested in I have younger friends,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: you know, some that are in their thirties, some in
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: their forties, some in their fifties, and generally they you know,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: they I guess they think that I offer them some
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: kind of knowledge from the life that I've lived, so
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: they want they want to be friends with me. And
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: you know, but that word friend can take a kind
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: of wide definition or a very narrow one. You know,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: there are people for me that you know, I've known
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: for fifty years or more and I've had a number
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: of experiences with them over our lifetimes, and that's really
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: feels very much like a bonded friend, and you can't
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: really have that with a new friend. So it's more
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: about the length of time that you've known someone, you know,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: the experiences that you had with them. I have a
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: friend Nancy, who we were partners at Life magazine. She
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: was the writer, I was the photographer, and we would,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: you know, do stories together, and the experiences that we
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: had on the road with Tony Robbins or when we
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: did Michael Jackson, I mean, part of the reason I
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: so value my relationship with Nancy is because only she,
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: She's the only one on the planet, you know, other
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: than me, that I can really share that experience with,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: you know, because we were there together. So, you know, friends,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: I definitely need them, and I like to have some
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: new friends, but having my old friends is what really
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: makes me feel connected.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Let's say, because you live in Nashville, which is a
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: music city, Let's say, okay I called you up, or
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: no one calls I emailed. Let's go to Bridgestone Arena
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: to see a relatively new act, or go to a
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: club to see a holy new act. What would you say,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: go to.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: A club for a holy new act. I got asked
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: the other night go to a club with a holy
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: new act. I got asked the other night to go
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: to bridge Stone Arena by a friend of mine who's
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: probably about forty five maybe at most will and he's
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: a Fish fan. And he said, I have a ticket,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: you know, will you come with me to bridge Stone
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Arena Sea Fish. I said, absolutely not. I'd rather go
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: see Joe Blow at some place you know, like Grimey's
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: or whatever that holds twenty people. That to me is fun.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Well, let me change a little bit. How hard is
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: it to get you out of the house to do
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: these things where you made your name.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's very funny. That's a really good question. It's
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: real hard to get me out of the house. It's
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: not if we're well in New York for me to
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: do other things, not to like go to Madison Square
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Garden or you know, things like that. But I get
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: out of the house a lot there. But here, no,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: I like to do my work all day and then
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: either find some great documentary or some TV show to
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: binge you know morning news. Uh, that to me is
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: heavenly going out and going I think here it's about
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: the driving and the parking, because I do go out
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: in Colorado and in uh in New York.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, let me drill down a little bit further. To
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: what degree would you not want to go because you said,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: been there, done that?
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Oh a lot, really a lot. And now what's interesting
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: for me is it's happening in in photographing people who
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: I I don't want to do more retouching work I
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: don't want to do. I don't want to do it.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: You know. I got a call from Alice Cooper's people
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: because Alice was here in Nashville recently. This is before
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: this album that just came out came out, and they
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: wanted me to do a variety of things the band here, this, there,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: like Nah, been there, done that. Not interested. So in
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: some way it feels odd to me that I just
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: don't have that drive anymore, you know. But if it
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: was about photographing someone who's of who I want to meet,
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: that's of interest and they don't have to be in music,
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: I'm more likely to want to do it. But for
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: the most part, everything in celebrity portraiture in the music
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: world also requires a lot of time spent in front
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: of the computer making people look like what they want
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: other people to think they look like. And it just
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: doesn't interest me at all.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, and then you mentioned Colorado. How long were
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: you living in Aspen twenty years?
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I kept New York.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's just talk Colorado. How did you end up
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: in Aspen?
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I lived. I had a house in New York
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: and LA and a house up in Woodstock. And when
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: I met my husband, which you asked about, which was
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: you know, over twenty years ago. He really is a
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: mountain guy. He lived in Sun Valley for twenty something years,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: and I had done I had worked about a month
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: a year for National Geographic, and I had friends photographer
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: friends who were staffed Geographic that all of them had
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: moved to Aspen and lived there. And so when we
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: got married, we went and looked at Aspen because I
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: knew that my husband couldn't really live in New York
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: full time. He's the as most I think, good couples,
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: your opposites. You know. I love the city. He like,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: he wants to see trees, long distance views, and I say,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: it's not about looking out, it's about looking within. And
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: so I thought, well, let's go take a look there.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: We're going to do a mountain town. And they have
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: a place called Anderson Ranch, which is an arts center
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: and everyone comes through there. I mean they really They're
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: like a little mini New York. So I thought, uh,
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: And it was much easier to get in and out
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: of than Sun Valley. So I thought it would be
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: good for me, time for a pattern interrupt sell La,
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: stop doing celebrity as much celebrity stuff, and start investigating
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: other things with your art. And that was why the
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: move to Colorado. Are you a skier, Yeah, I skied, well,
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: I became a skier. Yeah, I skied every morning. It
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: was great.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. So you talk about these multiple houses. Was your
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: career that lucrative?
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I always I'm a buyer, not a renter. It's
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: the way that I am. And in those days, you know,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: things didn't cost what they do now. I don't understand
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: how young people can do it now, you know. And
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: I was fortunate because I might buy some real estate
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: and sell it, and I made more money in the
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: real estate then I did, let's say, for a couple
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: of years of work. So it's all always panned out
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: for me somehow.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: And what properties do you and your husband own now?
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: We have a condo in Aspen, the house in Nashville,
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: and a condo in New York City.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the Walking Wounded. Why did
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: you start a band to begin with? Was that a
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: long time desire? Did you practice guitar in your bedroom?
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: How did that come about?
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: Well? I always sang and wrote songs. I sang in
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: coffee houses in Florida. When we moved there, I sang
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: in Freddie Neil's coffee house. And I think I might
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: have thought that I would be a singer, and when
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: I went to University of Michigan, there was a band
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: starting up, the Walking Wound, and somehow the manager had
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: heard I guess of that band that I could sing,
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: so they asked me to join the band, and I
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: played bass and sang, and unfortunately, on one of our
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: trips to New York, I met a band called Children
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: of Paradise and they then came to ann Arbor and
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: played and we after the show, we all went out
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: in my car to look for flying saucers that seemed
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: to have been spotted quite frequently. Believe it or not.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: Let's stop here now, are you the touchy feely kind
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: of person? Were you going to tell me? You know
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: there are flying saucers and you know, don't use it.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: University of Michigan and we were near Ipsilante, and at
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: the time there were not that we believed in it.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: We went to see it. There were sightings quite often
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: of UFOs, you know, it was in the ann Arbor
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: News or whatever, so I wasn't judging it. I just thought, hey,
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: let's go, let's go see if they're really there. And
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: this band I got pulled over because I was driving
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: very slowly because I kept looking up to see if
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: there were any flying saucers. It was my car and
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: this band Children of Paradise already and Happy Trom they
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: stuck there. I got pulled over by the cops because
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: I was driving so slow and they stuck. I didn't
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: know they had drugs and they stuck them under my seat.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: They were in the back seat. And so when I
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: got pulled over and the police found the drugs and
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: it's my car, I was rested and my stepfather said.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: That it is a little bit slower you're driving. You're
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: pulled over, which is always a horrifying experience at whatever
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: age when they say we found drugs and it's you.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: How did you react?
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Oh? I got down on my hands and knees and
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: I said, you can't do this. I'm Jewish, I come
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: from a good family. You can't. I'm I go to
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: ann Arbor, you know. And they didn't care, and they
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: took all of us to jail, but they let the
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: other band go because they were from New York. So
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: I got stuck with a felony.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: Wait wait, so what was your feeling about them doing
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: that to you?
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Oh? I'm scumbags. What can I say? And later I
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: ran into Happy and already one of them died. I
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: ran into them. They live up in Woodstock, right, Yeah,
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: and they know what they did to me, you know,
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: and they left me there to hold the bag. But anyway,
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: my stepfather said that unless I quit my band and
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: I stopped singing and all of this stuff, that he
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: wouldn't pay for my lawyer. So I made a deal
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: with him, and that was why I stopped going in
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: that direction and decided to focus on directing.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, a little bit slower. You know, it's a big
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: thing for women to play the bass. Did you know
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: how to play the bass before you joined the band?
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: Not really. I played guitar. I had a Gibson guitar. No,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: but they taught me, you know, light my fire. You know,
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: playing music is not that hard, you know, whether you
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: play it well or not. I don't play well.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you made this deal with your father, grand stepfather,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: excuse me?
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Do you still resent him for that?
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Oh? Not at all, not at all. No. Your life
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: takes turns for various reasons, and it was why I
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: then focused on directing. And you know, I loved making films.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: I loved doing what I did, and the deal was,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: you know that after I graduated and returned for six
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: months to Miami Beach, that then you know, I was
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: free to be.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning. So you're talking about Detroit.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: Where were you born?
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: I was born in Detroit. You want to know the hospital?
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: No, I want to know how long you lived there
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: before we moved to Florida.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: Basically. I mean we did move once when I was
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: nine to a different part of Florida. That's because my mother,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: she didn't get married. She was opening up a store
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: that failed, so we moved back to Detroit. But my
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: kindergarten through to tenth grade was basically Detroit, and then
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: for tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade it was Beach Hide.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: Usually that's an incredible trauma to leave all your friends
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: behind and start over in high school.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I didn't want to go. I was not interested.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: And it was also traumatic in that Miami Beach and
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: the lifestyle with my stepfather was just so different than
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: what I had had in Detroit.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: In what way?
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, in every way. My stepfather was very wealthy, and
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: he also wanted to take a hand in my upbringing
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: as a I don't think I ever ate vegetables, and
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: he was very hands on, whereas my mother, because she
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: was a working mother, pretty much left me and my
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: sister alone and I didn't have that kind of supervision.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: So at first I hated it, but I now am
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: really grateful that, you know, someone came in and made
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: sure I used my knife and fork, and that I
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: didn't just eat with my hands.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: And did your mother and stepfather were main marriad for
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. Yes, okay, so you're in
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: Florida like when the Beatles hit.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my picture of the feet of the Beatles,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: So tell us that story. As I said, my stepfather
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: and I really didn't well, I didn't get along with
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: him because I didn't enjoy having this stranger come in
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: and suddenly there are rules like when you walk out
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: of the room, turn your light off, or you're being
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: fine twenty five cents, a range of things that I
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: was rebelling against. And he wanted to be on my
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: good side, and because he owned hotels in Miami Beach,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: he could. He did arrange for me to be in
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: the lobby of the Dauville Hotel when the Beatles arrived.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Only I wasn't interested in the Beatles. I didn't like
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: the Beatles. I thought, I Want to Hold Your Hand
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: was just a really weak song, and they weren't my
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: cup of tea. So I told my mother I wasn't going,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: and she said, no, no, you're going, because if there's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: a choice between you and George, I'm staying with George
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: and you're gone. So with that in mind, I went
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: to the Doba Hotel with my camera because I did
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: like the lobby carpets in these fancy hotels, and I
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: liked photographing the carpets. And when the Beatles came in,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: I didn't even look at them, but I was looking
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: at the carpet and I saw their feet and they
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: were all wearing James Brown's boots. Like a little light
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: bulb went off in my head. I thought, oh, And
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: I took a picture of their feet on the lobby carpet.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: But I just walked away after that, and John grabbed
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: my arm. John Lennon Happy Birthday, John Today's birthday. He
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: grabbed my arm and said, d youre in all faces?
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: And I said no, no, and walked off. And so
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: someone from the Miami Herald was there and they asked
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: if they could develop my pictures. They asked my father
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: and stepfather and he said yes. And so really that
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: was my first kind of published picture and my story
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: in the in the newspaper about you know, the little
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: girl who didn't like the Beatles.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: So but you ended up seeing the Beatles when they
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: were there, for they were there to play the third
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: week on Ed Sullivan.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I definitely went, and you know, I mean
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: it was a whole I remember it as like one time,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: you know, like going being in the lobby, and then
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: maybe later being because it was at the same hotel
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: as I remember. But the memory that is clearest for
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: me is like I couldn't have cared less about the Beatles,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: and yet when they came out on stage, all the
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: girls in the audience were standing on chairs and screaming,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: and I found that I was also standing on a chair,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: screaming with tears running down my face. George George, and
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: I it was like standing outside of myself because I thought, Lynn,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: what are they doing? But I was like George, George.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: So it's fascinating this kind of thing that spreads, especially
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: I think amongst young girls or young adolescents who are
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: that you know passionate?
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, you end up going to University of Michigan. Why
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: as opposed anywhere else?
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I was accepted to Ragcliffe, which was Harvard because
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: they were it was really kind of like one school.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: Harvard didn't take girls. And my father, my birth father,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: had gone to U of M and so I, for
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, wanted to go and get a degree from
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: the same school that my father went to.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: And did you get in state tuition or are you're
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: living in Florida A No.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: No, I was an out of state student, which made
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: it harder to get into and you had to pay
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: out of state money.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: Right, So you moved to New York after college? How
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: long after college? You moved to New York.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: When I graduated from college, I had to go back
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: to Miami Beach for six months and teach high school English.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: So I was a substitute. Yeah, substitute teacher for six months,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: and then as soon as that time was up, I
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: went to New York.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: And you stayed with your sister.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: No, I actually stayed with my friend Inky.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: And who is incy.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: Inky was my friend that I met at a bicycle
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: shop in Coconhao Grove and Inky had moved there, so
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: I went and stayed with Inky. At first she was
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: on the Upper West Side, which at that time they
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: were like dutings. Yeah, and how long do you live?
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: My sister had moved to la by then, So.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: How long did you live with Inky before you got
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: your own place?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: A very short time. I don't remember exactly, but you know,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: probably just a few months.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: And so you get to New York. How do you
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: get a job?
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Well, I thought that I would direct films. So you
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: start out by going to different production companies trying to
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: get a job as a production assistant. And because you know,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: I was told you bring a resume and all the
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: rest of it. And I graduated from ann Arbor in
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: three years with two degrees Magna Cumlada. So when I
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: would present my resume with that on it production compan
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: and he s would say to me, well, you're not
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: going to like run for coffee, you know, I'm not
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: going to hire you. So I realized I was like overqualified.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: And during that period of time I had met, through Inky,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: my friend a guy named Bob Zachary who worked at
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: Elektra Records, and he had told me that Danny Fields
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: was leaving Electra. I knew Danny because Danny had come
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: to ann Arbor looking for bands when I was in
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: the walking room, and he'd gone to see the MC five, US,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: the SRC KSE and Iggy and the Stooges, and so
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: I met him back then. But he was leaving and
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: Bob told me about this position, and because I had
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: learned that telling the truth wouldn't get you the job,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: I went in and told them that. Well, I had
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: a meeting with Jack Holsman, and I told him that
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: I had worked at CAP Records. And Jack cap who
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: created the forty five, actually is my grandfather's cousin. When
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: they came over from Russia. He and my grandfather we're
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: going to go into the music business, and my grandfather
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: decided that wasn't a good idea and he went to
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Michigan and started a carpet cleaning company. You really want
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: to hear all? Yeah, So anyway, I said that I
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: had worked for Cap Records, and I also knew that
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: if I got in there and did a number of
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: things really well right away, that even if Jack Holsman
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: were to find out that I lied, he would keep me.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: So that's exactly what happened. I created a thing called
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: the biodisc. Right away, I started making radios about a
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: range of ideas that I had thrown at Jack in
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: our meeting. Like I said, you know, you send out
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: these bios to the trade publications. They get so many
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: of them from all the labels. You should be sending them,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: you know, a little disc And I had a thing
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: that my mom had sent me from the Caribbean, which
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: was a record that you could play right, And I said,
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: and I can like interview your artists and talk to
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: them and also cut radio spots. I don't know what
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: I said. I made up all this stuff and then
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: I did it. That's that's that's like grand prom That's
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: what I do. Like they get up and then I
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: do it.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, So how long do you work in elector records?
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: Not that long? Because in the beginning I liked it
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: because I liked the artists that I was doing, Delaney
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: and Bonnie. Oh who is that great crew? The I'm
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: blanking their name, you know. Iggy was on the label,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: a bunch of artists that I liked. But then he
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: wanted me to do people that I didn't like, and
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to do that. And I'm someone who
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: thinks like, if you're unhappy at what you're doing, change it.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: So that's what I did. Yeah, actually I missed a step,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: to tell you the truth. When I went around trying
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: to get a job as a production assistant and they
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: wouldn't hire me, I decided to try NBC and to
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: see how it worked there. How you got a job
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: as a production assistant And they told me that I
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: could be a guide and after I'm a guide for
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: six months, then I could move up to being a
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: production assistant. Well, I'm a girl who graduated from college
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: in three years with two degrees. I'm not spending six
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: months as a guide. So while I was being a guide,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: I got to meet people on this show called Personality,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: where you write questions for the TV show, and I
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: talked my way into that. So I was only a
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: guide for like, I don't know, a month or two
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: months before, I was a writer for a television show
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: called Personality. All you had to do was write questions.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: And then I decided I didn't like TV. I didn't
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: like that, I didn't like being around it. And that
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: was when when I must have met Bob Zachary through Inky,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: and I went in the direction of music.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: Two questions. How long did you write questions for personality?
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: Not that long because I knew I didn't like it.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: I really don't remember it a long time ago.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: And where is Inky today?
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: I think she's in Greece. She married a Greek film producer.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you leave Electric Records with another job or
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: you just say I can't take it anymore.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, no job. When I leave things, I normally
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: don't at the moment have something that I'm going to.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: I just am like, I don't want to do this anymore.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: And I decided I had for my sister made studded
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: leather belts, and I knew I could sell them to
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: some of the musicians that I've met. And I also,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: uh became a peddler in New York. I had these puppets,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: uh marionettes. One is actually up there still. I would
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: go to l A hold on if you don't, Oh,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: I can't get up there anyway. I wanted to show. Oh,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: but she looks just like me, and uh, so I
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: would sit uh with my marionettes at the episcopal.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: Well you went to where did the you talked about
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: going to l a, and where did the marionettes come from?
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: My sister and I went over to Tijuana and I
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: saw these marionettes and I said, oh, I can sell those,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: sou So I bought dozens of them, and I told
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: them when I went through the you know the customs,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: you know where you drive through with your car, that
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: I was a school teacher and I was bringing them back,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: you know, for my kids. And then I sold them
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: for a while on this street.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: How much was the puppet?
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: I still have the case, one for three, two for five.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: And I would sit there from about four point thirty
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: to six o'clock and I would make at least three
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: hundred dollars in cash.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because people were leaving work walking down Fifth Avenue
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: so they could bring a marionette home for their kid,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: you know. And I just did that for a while
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: to be able to have money to figure out what
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: is it I really wanted to do.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: Wait one second, were you just standing there by the
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: cash box or were you playing with the marionette? Were
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: you closing the people? How much? Were you a salesperson?
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: Oh? I have a picture there. I had. I have
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: a picture of me doing it. I didn't have to
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: sell much. I mean, I just I had a case
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: that was open and it said one for three, two
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: for five, and I just sat there and played with
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: my marionettes and people would buy them. And that was that.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: It was easy and I could do other things. You know,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: I had enough money to pay my rent to eat food.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: That was what I, you know, cared most about.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: So you did that for how long? And then what?
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: I don't remember it. I don't I didn't do it
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: for that long, don't. I don't really remember.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: Well, what was the next job after that?
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: After that? That was when I met Joshua White of
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: the Fillmore East and.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: West that ultimately switched from Joshua to Joe. Was Joshua
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: still doing the light show at the Fillmore East when
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: you met him?
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: No, he was starting a new company called Joshua Television.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: How did you meet Joshuaite.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: Through my sister. They were both going to the airport
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: to England and I went in the car with my
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: sister and that's how I met josh And then when
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: josh came back from England, he called me up. We
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: talked about what he was doing, and yeah, one thing,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: you know, you just keep working. One thing leads to
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: another and do the things that you love to do.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you went to work with josh What were
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: you doing there?
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: I was, well, I was a few things. I was
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: a director because we did a thing called video magnification.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: No one had really done that before. You see it
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: all the time now, large screens at events, and we
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: basically did the Hollywood Bowl and the Guarden. And that
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: was how I ended up at ABC was because we
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: did that for I don't know a year or so,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: and then ABC came to Joshua and said that they
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: wanted him to work on the first late night rock
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: and roll TV show. So when I worked with Joshua,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: I called all the shots that were not being recorded
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: that were live, and he called what was going to camera?
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: So that really helped. And I'd studied television directing, but
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: actually doing it like that for a period of time,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: you know, really increased my skill and my confidence.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: And this is in concert.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, ABC in concert?
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, So how do you leave there to go to
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: work for Grand Funk?
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, you leave Grand Funk.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: Then what do you do?
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: Oh? By that time I decided that it was always
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: photography that allowed me to travel meet people, do a
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: variety of different things. So I thought I'll just take
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: pictures and see what happens.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: Just a little bit slow when you how skilled were
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: you as a photographer and were you getting paid to
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: be a photographer before you made that decision.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: Well, when I did all the stuff for Grand Funk,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I did the three D album cover, that
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: was a first and learning how to do things. I mean,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: no one had ever done a three D cover. In
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: part was just me figuring it out. I don't think
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: it's so hard to figure how to do things, and
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: I was self taught in photography. I just to me
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: balancing light and time, and then it's about the eye
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: that you have. So and when it comes to pictures
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: with people, it's about directing, which you know, I'm a
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: control freak, so I direct and it suited me. But
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: it also suited me because I wasn't tied down by
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of people or meetings. I could just make
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: my pictures. One of the things when I was directing
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: for in concert was someone from a record label was
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: in the mobile unit while I was calling my shots,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: and he saw my storyboard and said he wanted to
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: use one of the pictures on the storyboard for an
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: album cover and I said how much and he said
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: one thousand dollars And I said, what about fifteen hundred
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: And he said, okay, I got fifteen hundred. I get
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: paid five hundred dollars to direct this show. And you know,
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: I have to go to all these meetings and it's
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: so aggravating, and I deal with stupid people that you
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: know that it was like what am I doing? You know?
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: So that was a key to me. Also, I knew
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: from Grand Funk, from taking pictures of them and supplying them,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: that there was a market around the world. It wasn't
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: just magazines in America. You know, there's Japanese magazines, there's
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: French magazines, things that German magazines, things that like you
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: just don't think of if you're not thinking about, you know,
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: being a professional in that field. So I just decided,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: you know what, for a while, it's just going to
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: be me and my camera.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: So how'd you get gigs?
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: Either? I made pictures and I took them around, Like
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: for example, I took pictures with one of my dolls
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: and I called it rape of the Doll, and I
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: took it to the National Lampoon and Anne Beats was
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: doing the first She was the editor of the first
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: all women edition of the Lampoon and she published My
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: Rape of a Doll. And by being friends with Anne,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: then I at all these other people from the Lampoon
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: and I started writing and shooting photo fundies for them.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: You know, just one thing leads to another.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: It actually doesn't that, but we'll get to that in
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: a minute. So how do you end up shooting musicians?
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: Ah well, I had friends who were musicians, and you know,
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: it's the subject. I'm not really into force people, not
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: that I wouldn't photograph them, but those were my friends,
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: those those were those were the people that I felt
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: closest to be my tribe. I've always been about images
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: and music. You know, those those two things have uh
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: have definitely made up who I am. You know, That's
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: what world powers is. Uh, it's a a strault of
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: where imagery meets you know, music. My videos that were
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: not made to be advertisements for a record. They were
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: made to make the idea bigger than just a song.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: So you know it's I'm turned on by by finding
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: new things and figuring out how to take things that
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: already exist and applying them in new ways. So a
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: lot of the time, you know, I worked on beck.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: I mean when I started shooting let's say, pictures of
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: Patty Smith, who you've become. You know, I've become friends
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: with her. We're still friends. It was more about because
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: I liked your Patty did I liked what she looked like.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: I'll make some pictures and then I always felt, just
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: like I could with the Marionettes, I'll go present them
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: to the label or management and I can sell them.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: And I would say probably ninety percent of my career
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: in that area of photography is me doing it and
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: then selling it, not being hired.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, how did it graduate to being hired?
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not hired that often.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to when you start doing it.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: In the seventies and eighties, were labels and other people
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: calling you to shoot different things, or was always the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: same you're shooting and you're selling.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: Oh no, there's a mix. But more of it was
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: me shooting and selling. And then there were times where
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I might have been the flavor of the
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: month for the art director at Columbia or the art
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: director at Warner Brothers, you know, and then they're on
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: to something else. But I would say for the most part,
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: you know, you just keep on working, making work, whether
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: whether they're hiring or not. And you know, like, for example,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: I saw for Exampa when I was riding my bike
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: in New York, and I saw him go into the
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: Saint Regis Hotel, and so I wrote a letter and
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: I dropped it off and I said in my letter,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: you know about how if he came to my studio,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: it would cost me about at least one thousand dollars,
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: which is a lot of money to a Jewish shoot
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: with him. But during that shoot, I'd shoot enough setups
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: that I could then go sell them to all the magazines,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: and he could approve what would go out, and if
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: he didn't like my pictures, we'd kill them. And so
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: he only had like an hour or two to lose,
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: whereas I had one thousand dollars to lose. And I
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be offering this because I'm not stupid that I
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: want to lose one thousand dollars. So Frank responded and
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: called me, and he came over and we did the
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: pictures and like for eleven years, I mean, from then on, anytime,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: the record label or someone wanted pictures. Frank was hiring me,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: So every situation is different. But I went ahead and
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: did that with Frank because I really respected Frank Zampa
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: and wanted to work.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're working in the music area. You talk about
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: your friend Nancy and Life magazine, you talk about national geographic.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: How does it spread out into non music world?
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: Oh well, I felt I had to do that in
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: order to stay sane. In other words, if I kept
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: bringing up music pictures, let's say the newsweek or Time
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: for the people section, or you know, just saying why
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: don't you consider this, then when things happened, you know,
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: you get to know those people. And then when things
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: happened like Challenger the you know, I went to Florida
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: for the UH spaceship that unfortunately blew up with the
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: teacher on it and everything. You know, you get those
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: kinds of jobs too, you know. There's all I didn't
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: want to just shoot music. There are people, you know,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: like Danny Clinch who's a wonderful photographer, but he only
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: wants to shoot music. That's what he does, right. I'm
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: not like that. I'm not one thing. I'm not And
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: just as much as I shot music. I shot movie stars,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: maybe not just as much, but quite a bit, you know.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, I did Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back. I
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: just saw the other day someone posted a nineteen eighty
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: eight cover of one of my studio portraits of Griffin Dunn.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: You know. So I have a very wide range, and
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: in part it hurts me because when people, especially nowadays,
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: where there's so much coming at us all the time,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: when they think of you, they need to have you
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: in a box, they need to associate you with one
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: thing because there's just too much going on. And that's
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: not who I've ever been. I'm a lot of different things,
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: you know. And that's the way it is for me.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: And it has its pluses and it's minuses.
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to this era. You shoot, Frank,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: You're going to the magazine's selling pictures. How do you
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: establish the price?
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: Oh well, they have rates. You learn that, but you know,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: you ask questions. They have a rate for a quarter page,
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: a half page, a full page, a cover. And then
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: also I joined the ASMP, there are unions that will
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: tell you, you know, what the guideline is to be paid.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: But like for example, when I first started working for Newsweek.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: They told me the day rate was three hundred dollars.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: And then I talked to my friends later on who
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: are gods, and I said, how much do you get paid?
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: They get paid five hundred dollars. So it's your job
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: to educate. So I went back to music and I said,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: I'm five hundred dollars from now on, right, So you
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: just have to educate yourself and take responsibility for it.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: You can't blame somebody for wanting to get a deal
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: on you, you know, but then don't let yourself be used.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: How about the issue of being fearful that the price
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: is too high, they'll go to somebody else.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: Let them go. That's how it works, you know, That's
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: how you set your price. Unfortunately, there are too many,
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: especially photographers, that think this way, and that's why it
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: has so lowered the market.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you talked about going to shoot the Challenger,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: which ended up being a disaster. That was a hired gig.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: Right the Newsweek or whatever said hey, good, oh.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: I would yeah, or I would call them up. By
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: this time, you know, things weren't email and texts and
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: all of that. You went up to the publication, I
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: had years of like being up there knowing them, and
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: I could say I really want to cover this, and
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: they know I'm good, so they would say yes. But
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: it was most and it's not just me. Most photographers
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: do suggest like when I went to a Life magazine
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: and said, I want to do a story on Tony Robbins.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: And here's why, you know, I want to do a
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: story on this or that. If they think it's a
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: good story, they'll send you.
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: And then there was like a going rate you knew
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: to charge for that or was it a negotiation every time?
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: No, there were when you work for a publication there
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: you know, there always is a day rate or what
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: they call a day rate against space.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: And then how'd you end up shooting movie stars?
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: Probably well I wanted to, but also like I met
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: uh I don't remember who were the first movie stars
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: I photographed, but I met Carrie Fisher and we became friends.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: It wasn't a matter of shooting, we were just friends.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: And then when it came time for the film, she
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: insisted that I had to be the photographer, you know,
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: so then you do one thing and that leads to
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: another thing. But I used to do a lot of
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: suggesting to Newsweek in time of who I thought would
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: be good for them to do a story or a
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: little peith on in that section in the people section.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, my first cover of People was Sissy Space.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: That was shot. Sissy actually called me up because she
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: wanted to meet Patty Smith, and I said, well, I'd
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: like to do pictures with you. I can have Patty
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: come over, you know, And then I ran them around
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: to the magazine and People Magazine used it as a cover,
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: so people might think I shot it for People Magazine,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: but I didn't, you know, I shot it for me.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: And that takes a lot of pressure off as well,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: because you're when you're working with these people, you're just
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: trying to collaborate and make something, you know, fun, and
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: that makes them look good. It's not brain surgery.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: How big a switch was it for you personally to
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: go from film to digital and were you an early
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: adopter or lad adopter?
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: Early very early. I'm always interested in new technologies and
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: I saw them as different forms of expression and still do.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: Film is different than digital, and it's not that one
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: is better than another. They're different and you choose them
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: based on what you're thinking you want to experience and
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: what you want the outcome to beate.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: And do you still shoot film sometimes?
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I have a refrigerator full of it, Yeah, all
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: ready to go. But I don't like the idea of
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: then you scan it you know, because everyone wants to
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: look at it digital, right?
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: And what editing program do you use?
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: Lightroom okay? And also photo Mechanic, And what's.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: Your opinion about the ability to edit pictures so much?
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I'm just even on a user level.
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: Google introduced a new pixel where you can do all
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: kinds of things, eliminating people from the picture, putting people in.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: Do you have a philosophy on that? No.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: I actually did a body of work of self portraits
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: where I photographed windows in New York City because it
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: was the whole series was an investigation into identity and
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: how do we pick what we're going to wear, what
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: we want to look like, what are our body models?
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 2: And in it nothing is really real. I remove things
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: from the window and then I add other photographs, so
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: when you look at the final photograph, it looks like
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: it's one photograph, but it could be one hundred photographs.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: I was creating images which question what's real from what's imagined.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: Starting in like two thousand, I started working on that
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: series and did it seriously and intently for ten years.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 2: And so how I feel about it is if an
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: artist wants to use that to make work which is
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: a certain kind of expression of their ideas, that's their choice.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: Me I spent enough time in front of the computer
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: screen for ten years that I'm just not interested in
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: changing up reality and doesn't I'm done.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, tell my audience about the Worldhole case, which went
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: all the way to the Supreme Court.
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: Well, there are often people, whether it's on social media
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: or individuals who think that they can make work from
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: your work that don't really understand the cost and what
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: goes into making that original image and the relationships. And
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: so I've always been quite protective of my copyright. And
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, an image of an image that
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: I had made in nineteen eighty one of the artist
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: Prince was used for an an artist illustration one time
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: in Vanity Fair. I was unaware of it, and I
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: didn't know who the artist was. I had an agency
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: that licensed rights to my pictures and to other people's pictures,
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: and so when Prince died in twenty sixteen. I saw
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: this image of prints on the cover of what's called
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: a boocasine that Vanity Fair puts out. It's when the
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: whole addition is dedicated, you know, to a specific artist.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: They call them bookasines, even though it's amagazine, and so
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: it looked familiar to me, and I went through my No,
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: I know what I did look familiar to me, So
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: I put it in Google Images and up came the
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article. That's how I knew
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: like it is mine because my credit was there in
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty four publication. And so I went and
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: I looked for my invoice that had been made out
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: to Vanity Fair and the submission for any paperwork, which
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 2: I save all of that because I'm well aware of
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: how that can determine rights to your work. And called
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: up the Warhol Foundation and explained that it had just
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: come to my attention and that I'd like to talk
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: to them about this. And I sent them the picture
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: the invoice, and I said, you know, I'd like to
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: find out what else you done with it other than this,
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: because no one ever licensed any rights from me, and
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: to make a long story short, they did what's called
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 2: a preemptive lawsuit. They sued me in federal court and
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: then basically offered me a very small amount of money
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: and if I would give them my copyright and otherwise,
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: I should realize that they have very deep pockets and
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 2: that they no matter what court I win in, they
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: will continue to appeal it all the way to the
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court, and that could cost me millions of dollars.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: Just so my audience understand, Andy Whirlhole essentially had painted
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: on top of your photo, and that's what we're talking about.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: Well, he made a silk screen, and the process of
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: making a silk screen you take a black and white
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: there's a high contrast of it, and then you take
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: these inks and you go over it, and then you
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: could put paint on it if you want it, but
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: it starts that. That's more or less the process. And
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: it was licensed for one time print use in one
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: edition of Vanity Fair. I had no idea that there
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: were sixteen silk screens and a range of other things
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 2: that had happened with it. You know, Andy Air re
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: licensediff from me, and nobody else had either, you know, So.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: Anyway, so they basically have a preemptive lawsuit, basically saying
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: take this offer or will bury you in paper and costs.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: That's right, And the paper was filled with a bunch
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: of lies, which really got me upset. Said that I
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: tried to extort them, which is absolutely not true. They
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: didn't use the black and white image that I sent them.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: They used a color image, and they showed in the
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: federal court documents how the color image the head was
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: turned a little bit. Well, it wasn't the color image.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: It was a black and white image. In addition, they
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: showed the nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article and they
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 2: removed my name. It was all so gangster like and
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: bullying that I just said, hey, I got to stand
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: up and fight this. And I thought to myself, you know,
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: I keep hearing from so many artists, whether they are musicians, writers, photographers,
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: who are sick of people just taking their stuff. I'm
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: going to have a go fund me because what's important
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: here is that we tighten up the definition of what
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: is fair use. It's very clear in you know, in
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: the in the legal definition. However, in my opinion, but
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 2: there have been various court rulings where the person fighting
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: it maybe didn't have real good representation, and it kept
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: making the definition of fair use more broad, more and
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: more broad, and I just you know, this lawsuit started
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: in the era of the presidency of Donald Trump, and
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 2: I just couldn't take any more bullying, pushing around threats
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 2: of lawsuits, and I said, I'm going to make this
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: go fund me and if every even every professional photographer,
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: of which there's one hundred and ninety thousand listed in
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 2: the United States alone, ten dollars, I'd be in good shape.
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: And so unfortunately the GoFundMe, which is still there, if
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: any of your listeners feel that they have a responsibility
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: too to uh stand up and fight for copyright, I
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: made it clear that there was no money in my
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 2: GoFundMe for me to make and that should I be
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 2: awarded any fees, that I would start a legal fund
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: for other artists who you know, don't have the ability
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: to you know, to fight this kind of fight. Anyway,
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: it went, as we know, all the way to the
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court, which was seven years. It was a lot
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: of my time. It was stressful, it was financially very stressful,
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: and unfortunately, the go fundme to date has raised about
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: sixty eight thousand dollars, which is nowhere near what it
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: costs to fight to take it all the way. But
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: I do you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't change my
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: decision because I felt like I couldn't live with myself
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: if I just back down. It's not who I am.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: So you know, I sang Tom Petty's song to myself
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: a number of times, and you know, and it's still
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: not over with because it goes to the district court now,
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: who decides if there are damages, and the Warhol people
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: are threatening other things. So you know, I'll be glad
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: when it's all over. But you know, it wasn't just
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: a matter of me paying the legal these necessary to
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: the level of lawyer that can fight, the level of
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: lawyer that the foundation hires. But it's also about being
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: able to kind of look at myself in the mirror,
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: and you know, just feeling like if you don't stand
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: up for your rights, you lose your rights. I've said
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: that for a long time to other photographers, to other artists,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: and it's like here I was, you know, in a
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: position of risking everything because should I have lost, they
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: were also suing me for their legal fees, so it
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: would have eaten up. I would not have a condo
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: in Aspen or a condo in New York. I wouldn't
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: even have a house in Nashville. I'd be on the street.
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: So there was really a lot of risk for me.
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: So how much are you out of pocket on the
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: legal fees?
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: Well, some of the legal fees are pro bono. So
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: the total bill comes to about three point four million
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: dollars and I'm probably out about half a million.
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, just so my audience knows. Describe the Ultimate Supreme
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: Court decision.
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 2: The Ultimate Supreme Court decision tightens up what is transformative
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: under the fair use aspect of the copyright law and
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 2: how that affects us. If you go to the go fundme,
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: it's gofunme dot com slash Warhol vs. Goldsmith. I explain
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: and show how in all the arts, if I were
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: to have lost this, okay, it would mean that if
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: it was a song or another picture, you could just
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: turn it another color, draw a circle around it, change
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: a word or two here or there in a script,
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: and you lose your copyright. And I really feel that
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: copyrights are what has enabled our American culture to be
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: so strong and so powerful, and what are we but
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: our culture? You know, I want to be in places
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: where that's valued.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, So just to nail it down, the Supreme Court
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: ultimately ruled in your favor and said it was infringement.
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: So today, at this laid date, how much are you
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: working and are you doing it the same way making
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: pictures and then monetizing them.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm painting and then I'll just side. You know,
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: if I'm selling my paintings, maybe someone will walk into
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: my gallery and want one of my paintings. I work
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: to talk about and promote my books. I have gallery shows,
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: I have talked you know, I keep busy. Is that
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 2: what you're asking?
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: Well, that's partial. And to what degree are you making photographs?
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: Oh? This past year probably less than ever, although when
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: I'm in Colorado, I'm generally making them almost every day.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: Okay. Let's go back to thirty odds actually forty years
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: ago at this point, what exactly happened between you and
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen and Madison Square Garden.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I was involved with Musicians United for Safe Energy,
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: Bruce was not, and I at the time also owned
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: a company LGI, a photo agency, and so my company
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: paid for MEWS. That was our contribution all the film
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: and processing that would be done during rehearsals, during shows,
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: handled the press of getting it out there to the
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: magazines and newspapers, and worked on selecting what photographers would
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: be shooting what during the event. When the event started,
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 2: Bruce decided that he that he was going to join
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: in and play. And so we had a meeting, he
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: and I because we were broken up and Bruce had
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: started dating someone, and I wanted everything to be comfortable.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: So we had a meeting and I said, when you
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 2: get there, which was going to be like nine o'clock
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 2: at night, eight or nine at night, maybe later, I said,
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 2: I will be shooting front stage. I'll put Joel because
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: I knew he knew him, you know, backstage with you.
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: What I was going to be doing. A typical meeting,
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 2: and that was I thought it was fine with Bruce.
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: And then the evening came and there were a few things.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: One Bruce always got incredibly back in those days. He
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: got incredibly nervous when playing Madison Square Garden, really nervous. Also,
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 2: it was his thirtieth birthday and he had a whole
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: thing about as many young people do, like when I
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: turned thirty. So he had a thing about like his
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 2: thirtieth birthday. So anyway, I'm in the front where I
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 2: said I was going to be about thirteen rows back
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: with the film crew, and it comes time for I
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: think a quarter to three. That was the song. And
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 2: a few things that happened that were very unlike Bruce. One,
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 2: because it was his birthday, someone handed him a cake
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: from the audience, and he took the cake and he
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 2: threw it back at the people in the front in
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: the audience. Bruce isn't like that. I thought that was
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: weird because he would't want to like get cake all
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: over people. And then on Promised Land he threw his
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 2: harmonica with real kind of anger into the audience. And
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: that in the early days with Bruce, I being how
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: I was like with Grand Funk and everything, It's like,
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: I think it would be a good idea, like to
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: throw your harmonica, you know, bluh ohhh. And he got
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 2: real mad at me and said that could hurt somebody,
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: you know. I was like, oh yeah, I wasn't thinking that.
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 2: I was just thinking of like the picture and what
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do here, and so I think that
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: when you're young, and you are you've had a very
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 2: close relationship with someone that if you're going to freak out,
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 2: you're going to freak out on them. And when I
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: saw him do those two things that were kind of
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 2: violent and not like him. He bent down on one
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: knee and he went like this with toll yeah, curling
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: his finger and the look in his eye look crazy,
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: and the house lights were on. So I just grabbed
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: up my camera bag and I started running down the
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 2: aisle and Bruce jumped off the stage and chased me
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: down and twisted my arm behind my back, and I
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: kept saying, don't do this, don't do this, and anyway,
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: he pulled me up on stage. Mind you, for a
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 2: long time in our relationship, I did not want anyone
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 2: to know that Bruce was my boyfriend because I want
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: to be Lyn Boltsmith and I don't want Uh. I
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: was I was sensitive about that. I shouldn't have been,
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 2: because I should care less what people who I don't
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: know or really care about think, unlike what the person
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: you love things. And so I was incapable of being
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 2: really supportive of Bruce when he needed it. And uh, anyway,
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 2: he jumped off the stage, twisted my arm and threw
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 2: me off the side of the stage. It was a
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: bad moment as far as you know, I'm concerned in
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 2: h not just for me. It was quite shocking for me,
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 2: but I don't, you know, I kind of think that
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: sometimes people who were in love or were close behave
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: in ways that they wouldn't normally behave. And it's just
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 2: really sad that this was in front of twenty thousand
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 2: people and that it horrified me. And then the next
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: day there were headlines in the paper, the New York
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 2: Post about how I was suing Bruce. I never sued Bruce.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: All of that stuff is like people make it up,
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: and people made up for years that, like I was
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 2: blacklisted from Columbia from anyone hiring me at CBS. But
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 2: I wasn't about to go like, hey, you know, I'm
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 2: the one who spent which is a lot of money,
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars, like on photographer's film processing, getting all
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: this stuff out there, doing all this work, giving my time.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: This guy comes in at the end treats me like that, which,
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 2: by the way, when he threw me off to the side,
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 2: the other people who did run it like Danny Goldberg,
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: they were all part of Muse Elliott Roberts. They were
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: like pulling on one arm saying you can't throw her out,
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: and on the other arm was like security people. And
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I just want to go home, Okay, just
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: want to go home. So it's a very unpleasant memory
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: for me that many people have their own take on.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: You know, they say they were there. I've sat at
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: dinner tables where people are telling the story and obviously
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 2: they were not listening when I was introduced to them,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: and they'll say, you know, something will come up. This
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: hasn't happened in many years, but back then, so I
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: was there. I was sitting behind her. She jumped up
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: on stage. Blah blah blah blah blah. So people are
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: going to make up whatever they want. Bottom line, I
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: perceive it as a moment that Bruce lost it, and
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: because I'm it's the way you are kind of with
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 2: family that nobody else should ever see, and you know,
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 2: so it's a it's a real unpleasant memory for me
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm blamed. I didn't do anything.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when was the next time you had contact with him?
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: Actually it was I don't know if it was a
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: year or two later. I didn't talk to him for
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: a while, and then I was staying at the Sunset Marquis,
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: and I think it was a year later. I was
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: staying at the Sunset Marquis and the room above me
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: was playing music really loud, right, So I called up,
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: you know, one room flight up and I said, you know,
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 2: can you lower the music? And and it was Bruce.
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 2: So he said, you know, come on, let's meet and talk.
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 2: And that's what we did.
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: How did the relationship end.
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: Nicely?
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, we've all broken up. Everybody says it's mutual,
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: but it's always somebody wants to break.
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 2: It wasn't mutual. It wasn't mutual. I didn't want to
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: be in the relationship anymore. And I think that's part
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: of why what happened at Madison Square Garden happened. When
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: he pulled me up on stage and said, I want
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 2: you to meet my ex girlfriend, He's like announcing it,
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: you know where it's like I had like tried keeping
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 2: it secret, right, and uh, it wasn't mutual. I felt
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: that Bruce really needed someone who was capable of really
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 2: being there for him, and that wasn't me, uh you know,
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 2: like he really wanted me in La one time. And
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 2: it's like I've got a shoot to do with Frankie Badley,
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 2: I'm not coming there, you know. And it's like, you
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 2: love someone they're nervous about something, What is that so important?
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 2: Go be there with them, support them? You know? Is
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: so h It's just young love, you know. But for me,
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 2: I was very clear in my own mind, not only
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 2: about the career that I wanted to have and that
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to get married and the rest of it,
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: but that I I didn't I didn't if I were
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: to be missus. I mean I used to that poor guy.
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 2: I mean I remember, uh we Robert Hilbert, the critic,
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: was a friend of mine, and yeah, and we were
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: Bruce and I were at the movies or something, and
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 2: you know, we'd be standing in line at the movies,
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 2: and like I think I saw Robert and I pulled
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 2: my hand out of Bruce's, you know, like I don't
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 2: want to be seen holding his hand, you know. And
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: then Roberts saw us. He said, oh hi, and and
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 2: he proceeded to just look and talk to Bruce, not
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 2: to me. Okay, And for wherever I was at at
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 2: the time. Poor b I don't say anything. Poor Bruce.
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 2: We get home and he's got to listen to me
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: go on about I can't believe that he didn't say
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: he just talks to you. They think you're so important.
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: I'm smarter than you are, you know, I mean that,
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 2: poor guy, you know, I know. So I feel really
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 2: blessed that I had that kind of you know, very
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 2: strong love and companion at a point in my life.
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: And what I learned from it, and I always knew like,
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be married to somebody who's on
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 2: the road. I don't want that life. You know. It's
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons I didn't continue on with will
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 2: Powers when will Powers had success. I don't really want
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 2: to do that. I don't want to spend my time,
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 2: you know, backstage and all of that. It just it
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: seems like a waste of a life.
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: How long were you with Bruce?
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 2: Alltold, I don't talk about it or count it. It
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: wasn't really that long when you look at the length
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 2: of our lives.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I know enough very successful people they always say,
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: oh I was lucky, etc. But they have to be
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: incredibly driven and there has to be something about their personality.
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 1: We've established that you're driven, But are you the type
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 1: of person who was a great networker or was it
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: like with Frank Zappa, whenever you saw an opportunity, you
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: had the guts to go ask someone to do something.
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: What was what made you so succesul?
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't think I was a networker, you know,
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: that's not my thing. I think that I get an
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 2: idea I want to work with somebody or I want
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: to do something, and then I try to make it happen.
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 1: And to what lengths will you go to make it happen.
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: I'll put it out there and if it comes back,
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: that's great, and if it doesn't, that's fine because there's
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 2: always something else. It's not like that's the only thing
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: out there, you know. That's how I feel about it. Yeah,
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 2: otherwise you you'd keep on pushing, you know, and I
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 2: haven't really had to do that.
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, then I think we've covered it.
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's a lot more we can
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 1: go into, but I think we hit the surface, went
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: down a little bit deeper. So I want to thank
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: you for taking the time with my audience of course.
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that you that Eric put us together
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: and that you took so much time too.
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: That's Eric Brazilian, well known for right eating one of
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: us and being a member of the Hooters, who connected
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: me and Lynn and any event. Thanks so much, Lynn,
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 1: till next time. This is Bob left sex