Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / The Path of the Mindful Teacher with Danielle Nuhfer
Transcript
- Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody. You are listening once again to the Authority Podcast on the BE Podcast Network. Thank you for being here and also here with me today is my guest, Danielle Nuhfer. Danielle is a former public school teacher turned coach. She has spent 20 plus years navigating the ebbs and flows of the current school system while helping her clients prioritize their own wellbeing. so that they can be their best inside and outside their classrooms and schools. She is an author of the book, Path of the Mindful Teacher, which we are discussing today. Danielle, welcome to The Authority. Danielle Nuhfer: Hi, thanks so much for being, for letting me be here. Ross Romano: Yeah, it's a real pleasure to have you here. A lot of important topics here that we started to touch on even before we started recording. The one I wanted to start with is this [00:01:00] idea of work life balance, right? This is kind of part of the core of what the book talks about and helping teachers to achieve this, but I wanted to ask you, how do you define that? What's the goal in that regard with respect to that term work life balance? Danielle Nuhfer: Yeah, it's such a tricky, balance is such a tricky word to use. The way that I like to teach it and convey it to teachers in that regard is more like seasons of our school year. So, I don't necessarily see it as balance, but I see it as ebbs and flows of You know, the beginning of the year is we can expect to be all in that's an expectation. But what I try to remind teachers come December is that you can't continue with that drive and with that like rigor at school. And not expect to burn yourself out. So then you need to take a step back. Okay. Where can I re negotiate some of my time? Where can I let go of [00:02:00] some of those things that I was doing all the time at school that shouldn't need my attention as much anymore? Like, what can I let go of and what can I you know, start to bring more of in my personal life that I maybe forgot about for like the last two months. So I don't necessarily think it's like a day to day balance that's perfect. It's more like a seasonal way to work through the school year so that you aren't just white knuckling it to every single weekend and every single vacation because that's not what we Ross Romano: Yeah, exactly. And so as the book sort of talks through this path of the mindful teacher the pathway to determining not only that balance, but wellness in a variety of areas. Of course, teacher mindfulness is at the root of this. And you know, you put out the You know, the idea of how much teacher mindfulness can change schools. Can you talk through a little bit about how that happens? Is that with regard to teacher efficacy, [00:03:00] to environment, to sustain energy, all the above, something else entirely, what does that look like? Danielle Nuhfer: So what, the way I like to break it down in the book is and also when I work with people, is really talking about, okay, let's look at what we have control over, and let's look at what we don't have any control over, and let's really start to pay attention to the things that we can do. control. And especially like when I work with teachers, it's about like, what can you actually control in your classroom? Like, let's get that granular. What can we really put our energy into instead of kind of depleting our energy, being exhausted by all the things that are going on that we don't really have any control over. So I try to really help bring some mindful awareness to, to, to those places that there is a lot of, Again, control. Ross Romano: Yeah. What are the basics of [00:04:00] a mindfulness practice? Danielle Nuhfer: So the way I would suggest anybody to start, so I know mindfulness is like such a buzzword, so like it's one of those words where you're like, what is she really even talking about? And what I mean when I talk about mindfulness is just paying attention on purpose without judgment. So the way I talk about it is maybe a teacher starts to pay more attention to when they react in their classroom, right? So a teacher will start to pay attention. I'll ask them, okay, for a week, just pay attention to when your heart starts to race. When you say something that you really didn't think landed well with your student, or when your face gets red, or your heart starts to beat faster. Like, all What are those times? Like when does that happen? And when we start to pay attention to our bodies signaling us like, huh, that should tell me something that continually [00:05:00] happens. Every time a kid's late, my heart races. Or every time a kid doesn't turn in their homework, I feel some sort of anxiety. You know, that's mindfulness and action in a classroom. And then what you do is you start to create some practices. to work with that. So maybe I would teach them about doing three deep breaths, or at certain points in their day, or maybe I would teach them about in the beginning of class, really grounding their feet into the floor, and really paying attention to what they're going to then do next. Now, This doesn't happen without practicing when you're not in a classroom. So that's the thing, like, it's almost like our classroom life is like the big game, and these like small mindfulness practices you can do when there aren't any kids around is the practice. So we always practice and then we bring it to the [00:06:00] classroom and then we practice and then we bring it to the classroom and that's really the flow that I try to teach my teachers. It's not just about sitting and You know, silence, like that is impactful, but then you have to then go put it into a classroom and into practice. (ad here) Ross Romano: I believe like broadly you know, associate mindfulness with the different things we're giving attention to. One of the chapters in the book that stood out to me as an interesting one that I wanted to hear your take on is the one around identifying scripts and blind spots and the importance of that and how that contributes to this. I think it, it might I think once you talk about it, people will get it, but when they first hear it, it may not necessarily stand out as obvious. How this relates to mindfulness and the way that you are discussing mindfulness. Danielle Nuhfer: Yeah, that's probably my favorite chapter in the book because that was the game changer to me and I'll just when I realized that [00:07:00] I when I realized that I was reacting in a certain way in my classroom, and I think every teacher can relate to like a certain thing that causes them to react. And every time they do it, they're like, why did that just grind my gears so much? Or why did that thing just not, like, why does that always get me? Why does that certain student always like push my buttons? Like, what is that about? And once I really started to deconstruct this, and that was, that's what I call flipping your scripts. So my script is, a kid comes in late to my classroom, I think he's disrespecting me, I get a little bit confrontational with him, he gets confrontational with me back, and what does that really solve, and like, what are we doing, this little dance that I'm playing, that's my like my script, is that he's being disrespectful. And then once I started to learn how to flip my script, which is to really pay attention. So what was happening in that [00:08:00] moment? Again, that mindfulness, I brought mindful, like awareness to that moment and I started to realize, oh, like I have always thought that being late meant you were disrespectful. Well, was this kid really disrespecting me? No, probably not. Like. He probably was like talking to his girlfriend or I had nothing to do with that. Does that mean he doesn't get a tardy slip? No, of course he does. But do I need to have so much emotion around it? Do I need to like be so impacted by that like, so wronged by that, and that, and I'm speaking from personal experience, like, that was how I felt, and once I learned how to flip the script, and that's what I call it, is I was allow, allowing there to be a possibility for more to be done. Like it wasn't just him being disrespectful. It was like, Oh, there could have been a ton of things. All right, he was late. He gets to sign this tardy slip and like we move on it didn't need to be this whole thing. And I think as teachers. You know, we all have that [00:09:00] thing. At least as far as I know, I've always had teachers tell me they have a thing and like, when you start to really unwind it and look at it more mindfully, you can take a step back and you can not take it so personally. And like, it's freeing. It's like such a freeing experience to see that there's more to the story than we are giving ourselves and the situation credit for. Ross Romano: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You got to the at the end and not taking it. So personally, I think being the consistent theme throughout that, that you know, understanding I, the variety of perspectives where students are coming from is It may help you to understand that this probably isn't personal to them, right? Either the thing that I have, either through my experience or my cultural upbringing or whatever, have identified as [00:10:00] being this critical, important thing may not be something that, that they've been exposed to. So them not behaving in the way that I think they should is not intentional, or it's not at least directed toward me as an individual. It's just something that to them is more typical, which. You know, still provides the opportunity to identify things that might be important to teach and learn, right, or practices that you still may want to really try to implement as part of your classroom environment, but to come at it from more of a a constructive perspective, I guess, versus feeling like it's I don't know you know, Punitive or anything like that, just to say, look, let's just have an open mind and understand that maybe this is new to us, but there's opportunity here for us to create something different, Danielle Nuhfer: Yeah, and that's, and I think that's where I don't want to get lost is the fact that, like, [00:11:00] that doesn't mean you can't instill these values in kids or believe that, like, yes, people need to be on time for things. Like, of course, and there needs to be repercussions if there's rules and things like that. Of course that is the case. It's just, when you flip your script, you see that It's again, not personal. And it's, and there's again, room for, like you said, growth and a conversation. And you know, that is much more meaningful than the way I was handling things. Ross Romano: right? Yeah, it maybe allows for the opportunity to reflect on why does this thing matter? Right? In the case of tardiness, right? Well, okay. Why does it matter? It matters because. One, depending on how late you are, you may be missing something that's important. And that's important because that's going to affect your knowledge of that subject [00:12:00] matter. But also it's important because if you go to a job interview and you're late, they'll probably cross your name off automatically. It's important. It's an important practice too. But if it's just right, like it doesn't matter that It's hurting my feelings. I mean, it does and doesn't, right? But as far as the student's concerned, that's not the most important thing, or that's not why we're here. So it's a good example of when we trace it back to, again what mindfulness is all about and on our wellbeing and our sense of self, sense of purpose sense of wellness in the role to alleviate those stresses of feeling as though. Things are done with the intent or the negligence toward my feelings, right? Just grounds you a lot better and you feel a little better about, okay, let me just address this in a way that's constructive. Transitioning here. So, so we talked about how that's attention, right? Largely is [00:13:00] mindfulness and being attentive to the right things, internal factors our own feelings, thoughts, behaviors, and then also our surroundings. There's also a point made By another of our former guests, Amber Harper author of Hacking Teacher Burnout and host of the Burned In Teacher Podcast she wrote an endorsement for the book and in her endorsement, she makes the connection between attention and intention, which is a huge part of this too in saying in part, this book will give you the opportunity to explore ways to pay more attention to your energy, choices, outlook, and influence And then when you focus on the right areas, then you can make the right decisions with intention. Right? And it, the two have to go together because there are a lot of areas and things that I think you'll introduce to some people for the first time around, circumstances. That often feel uncontrollable, unavoidable but there actually is [00:14:00] some choice in them and with intentionality, decisions can be made to choose what is going to serve us better versus what's not. But it takes Understanding that first and looking at, okay, how is this affecting my energy levels and where my energy should be, or the influence I'm having my job to be able to do that. Can you just give a little more of your perspective on that relationship between attention and intention and how they work together in the role, Danielle Nuhfer: Yeah, as a teacher, that's a great question. And I think that everything tries to get our attention as teachers, right? Like we could be pulled in a thousand different directions. We, our to do list, even though the end of the school year comes, it's just another then to do list for the next year. So like we have everything trying to grab our attention. [00:15:00] So, When you practice mindfulness, you bring intention to, to trying to figure out, again, what is the best use of my time? What can I let go of? And it's hard to let go of certain things. Like it's hard to let go of the perfect bulletin board. It's hard to let go of having everything graded for the next day and then in the kid's hands with like all the marks and like all the things that you always have done. But sometimes. It's not worth it. Like, it's just not worth all the energy and the time that we think needs to be on certain things, like you said. And instead, when we look back and we say, okay, I am only one human being. What can I let go of? And make columns. Like, make columns. Like, what can I, what am I doing? Like, what am I doing in a week? Like, or a day? Make a list. What can I let go of? And then, [00:16:00] what can I, like, pause on? You know, and be honest about it. Because I think sometimes people will say, well, I can't, there's nothing. Nothing. I have to do all of it. And that's not true. Like it's just not true. And the one place that or my book, I do a, I have people do like a time audit of how they're spending their time. And that's a really useful tool to figure out like, okay, let's get honest about the way we're spending our time. And then let's, Figure out, again, what's the biggest bang for our buck here, like we don't have a lot of free moments, so what is going, how can we stack tasks, how can we leave certain things that I do them all together, all my emails at one time, or something like that, so you start to, but you don't know that until you pay attention to what you're actually doing. So you can't do the intentional part unless you pay attention to the big picture without judging yourself. So just say like, this is how I'm spending my time and don't judge yourself. It's okay. And then get intentional about what you really want it [00:17:00] to look like. Ross Romano: Yeah, and to that intentionality or the subtitle of the book is how to choose calm over chaos and serenity over stress one step at a time you know, which leads to how would you describe chaos and stress as choices, I guess, is the important context for tackling this. Danielle Nuhfer: Yeah, it's the word choice. It is, it's the word choice because I think I want to be careful because I don't want to say that certain situations are okay. Like I don't ever want to say that like, You should be in a situation where, like, people are, you're not in good working conditions, and you're not getting, like, the things that you need to do the work that you need to do, and if they're unsafe or harmful, like, of course, like, that's not what I'm talking about. But, if we're talking, if we're letting all that aside, things, we can choose to, again, if our choice is, like, I want to be less stressed. Like, [00:18:00] that's what I want. As a teacher, I want to do my job. I want to be less stressed. How do I do that? You do need to choose to let things go. Like, you do need to choose to say no so that you can say yes to a little less stress. You do need to say no to staying late to grade everything. Or you might need to say no to a student who wants to stay after school every day. You might need so there are boundaries that you need to create as a teacher. So that you can choose to be less stressed, and those choices are not easy, they will change they will change as your seasons of life change, as you're a parent, or I used to stay after school all the time with kids, but when I had kids, Then I couldn't do that anymore, and I needed to say, you know what, other teachers can do that now because I've been doing it, and they can now do some of that. So, I really, [00:19:00] it's not easy. So, yes, the, I say it, choose, and it sounds like, oh, I can just choose to not be, no, it's not easy. But once you start to see that when, again, you say, No to something, you're saying yes to something else. And guess what? When you are a less stressed, more on point human being, you're going to be a better teacher and you're going to be a better person all around. And that is going to make your life better. So make those choices instead of those choices making you.   (ad here) Danielle Nuhfer: Yeah absolutely and and I think one of the phenomena, I guess, that may illustrate how these states, or at least our decision to allow ourselves to be, become wrapped up in these states, right, is is a choice versus a predestiny is the fact that they're contagious, right, that, When we're [00:20:00] around people who are completely being overwhelmed, overcome by the stresses in their lives, or who are perpetuating chaos, like, it it rubs off on us, versus when we're around other people who are able to maintain their steadiness and kind of see through what's going on around them and kind of let on that sense of comfort and confidence, right? That's contagious too. You say, okay, well, maybe this isn't so bad, or maybe, oh, maybe I'm seeing another option here because of the way other people are reacting to it. And again, to your point, like not to say that there are certain environments that are You know have the components of healthy or good, right? There's certain environments where we probably shouldn't be, but even that relates to this, which is choosing the right path forward would likely allow us to calmly determine, you know what, this is. [00:21:00] the wrong, these, there's, I can't change the way this environment is. It's not the right place to be. There's things happening here that are not okay. And I need to create an alternative path for myself versus potentially just. Giving in to that chaos is going to make it take much longer to make that decision, if at all. Would you categorize of course another one of the ideas that is closely related to all of this is burnout. Would you categorize the book and its strategies as relating more to burnout prevention, recovery, alleviation, slash management? How would you say that it's sort of relates to what we typically would understand as teacher burnout. Well, so I wrote the book after going through two bouts of teacher burnout myself, so it's a response to having gone [00:22:00] through this and not finding what I needed for educators. So I found lots of great tools. that really supported my health and well being outside of school. But when I started to see how I could bring a lot of these tools and practices into my classroom, that's when I started to really, not heal myself, but really, like, I was able to be a better teacher. So this book I would say is for, and I started the whole book out by basically saying like, you have three options. Like, you can leave the profession, you can continue down this path that of burnout or stress, or you can choose a different path. And like, you have those options. And the third path is to read this book and to start to try to do some of these practices. So I really would say, I've had people tell me that every new teacher should read this book, like every new teacher to the [00:23:00] profession should read it as kind of like a do this before you need it sort of thing. And then I think I also have a lot of people who connect with it when they're like, you are talking to how I'm feeling right now and I trust you and I want to read what you have to say because you actually are a teacher and I trust that you are like that you had this experience and you know that this works. Ross Romano: Right. Yeah, I I think there is a good point behind new teachers and just people from all walks of life and professional backgrounds engaging in wellness practices, definition of their goals around wellness and mindfulness and what they want that to look like. At the outset of what they're getting into, particularly when they know that the road ahead will be rocky one. I mean, because logistically speaking, it might be a little easier to really engage in those [00:24:00] practices before there's a million other things going on. But I do also think that there's, it's, it may be the best environment. To quickly embrace the authenticity of those practices and the idea that it's a true creation of the you know, the type of mentality and mindset and life and circumstances you want to have. I I can see how sometimes for some people there may be some resistance to it as really difficult when they're in the middle of really overwhelming circumstances, and it almost can feel I don't know inauthentic or superficial or whatever, where they're like, okay, I think I feel like I'm just blocking this out, but it's really happening. And and eventually if they truly do engage, they will learn otherwise. But it can be like kind [00:25:00] of, If you haven't practiced it before and you wait until you really need it, it can feel almost like you just maybe doubt that it's going to work or doubt that it's really going to be substantive and transformative. I don't know if you've encountered that with different educators coming from different points of view and the things that maybe either make them more likely to resist or embrace the practices. Danielle Nuhfer: Well, what I was I, what came to my head was that I, I wrote the book in a way that is part memoir and part practice. And I did that on purpose because I wanted people who were reading the book who picked it up to be able to see themselves in it. And I think that's helpful. So maybe if you're not ready for the practice, just like read the first chapters or first part of every chapter, because that's where the story is. And that's where you hear like the actual story and you [00:26:00] can see yourself and like so I tried to make it, the practices be a part of it, but it's more, it also is the story of My progression through two bouts of teacher burnout and coming to the other side of that. So yeah, I do understand that you're like, Oh, am I do I really need to do this is just this just one more thing to make me feel bad about not doing right or not knowing how to fit in or not knowing. But I also intentionally made it very like like I get it, like I, I get that you can't sit there for 20 minutes in the morning, like doing deep breathing exercises, like sitting cross legged on your meditation cushion. And if you can, perfect, but that is not what you're going to be encountering you read this book. Ross Romano: Yeah. It's and I think, I mean, maybe another idea is even if you're, if you know, particularly find yourself in a situation where okay, I need to learn more about mindfulness and [00:27:00] the path to wellbeing because I'm clearly struggling in these areas. and you read it the first time and it's not really resonating with you, put it down and come back a few days later, because it's so much of it is about the headspace you're in on a given day and the mentality. And I mean, I can even say from my own personal experience that you know, like you In my coaching practice, I often work with people on similar types of challenges and certainly around choices and decisions and creation and that how to do that. And, but I might reject my own ideas on a day when I'm in the wrong head space, right? My, my coach may say to me, well, have you thought about it this way? And I might say, that's not going to work. The same thing that I would recommend to somebody else. But if I'm in the wrong, if it's just the wrong day or something's going on, then I might. be closed minded to the thing and then a couple days later I might change my tune entirely. So [00:28:00] it is one of those things that along with the mindfulness and just being aware of, okay, what's my attitude today? What am I experiencing? What are the things that are really weighing on me today? That it could just be the type of thing like revisit it when you're feeling a little differently and then you might be better able to absorb the substance versus just Up. Danielle Nuhfer: Definitely. Ross Romano: One of the important points is we're kind of getting to some of our last ideas here, but I think it's critical that we shouldn't jump over this, which is how does teacher wellness correspond to student wellness? Danielle Nuhfer: Well, you were talking about social contagion and there's no greater example that I can give of teacher wellness is absolutely connected to student outcomes. It absolutely it is. It's, it is one of the most, I think, in my experience, one of the most overlooked [00:29:00] Connections. That is such a, well that's silly that we keep overlooking it. Why do we keep having teachers do all these things, learning all these curriculums, teaching all these things for students, or to students, but we're not ever providing teachers. with the same sort of well being and wellness training and support. But we're expecting them to like be that to the students and then, but not like provide them with the support that they need. So I think there is such a connection and it's not even what I think. There's much research to back up the fact that stress is absolutely contagious as are positive emotions. So when we have teachers who are feeling really confident and solid and good in their jobs. That doesn't mean there's not stress. And that doesn't mean that there's like not difficulty, but if they can see that there's places for their autonomy, that they are part of a team, that there's [00:30:00] a communication with their administrators, that they understand they can get needs met. That's teacher wellness. That's teacher wellbeing. When we focus on that, They're the one and we want our teachers to stay in their schools because guess what kids go through school You know what four years like that. We get a new round of kids like, you know Revolving door, but if our teachers can stay there and they are well our cultures our school cultures are There it's just it's that is the place to start Because when our teachers are on point, the students feel it is it's just, it's, it permeates through the school building. So, I can't stress enough, I know we get so overwhelmed about test scores and about all the things that the kids don't have and that they don't, and that they need, and like, I get that, and like, that's real, and that is a question, like, I don't know how to solve all the problems, but what I can say is [00:31:00] if we don't have teachers who are with these kids that are well, and that are taken care of, and that are knowing how to get their needs met, we aren't going to be able to do the work we need to do with students. It's just, it's not going to happen. Ross Romano: Yeah. Danielle Nuhfer: it's really connected. Yeah. Ross Romano: respond to what they see and they see an educator who's in any, whatever emotional state if an educator who's joyful, an educator who is engaged an educator who is overwhelmed or in a state of distress, they're going to pick up on that and feel that way. I mean, we've certainly referred You know, talked about this idea in the past a couple of times on the show, particularly around the idea of student engagement and how can we expect our students to be engaged in their learning if [00:32:00] teachers are disengaged and so if teachers are environments where leadership is creating a scenario where they're feeling like they're not. You know, totally plugged into their work, or they're feeling that burnout, or they're feeling like maybe I have one foot out the door, or or just I'm not supported in some way that I'm not, like, fully here you know, of course, students are going to respond to that, right? That they're going to pick up on that, and it's gonna affect them and influence them. So it's, and that's why we're We're here, right? And then what does that cycle lead to? That cycle leads to teacher drawing the conclusion that I'm not able to have a positive influence here, I shouldn't be here, and maybe I shouldn't be teaching at all. And it's and then what does that do with the students? Maybe the next year they get a brand new teacher, right, with no experience. So it's just an ongoing cycle that's not positive. If we're not aware of these things, mindful and figuring out what can we do within our own. [00:33:00] Personal control and sphere of influence. How can we support those around us to create better practices around this and that fundamental goal being like we all know that we're here to support students, right? And it's a two way relationship to once I feel as though student well being is negatively affected, whether it's because of me or because of something else, right? I'm also have not having a really positive feeling about my role here. Same thing, right? So, and and these are good things for anybody. I know that a lot of times that of course for listeners who have spent their careers in education, and then these topics come up so frequently that it can feel unique. And there are There certainly are realities of the education profession that are unique to that profession, but but the feelings of burnout and dissatisfaction and poor work life balance and then lack of well being are not unique in the importance of proactively [00:34:00] seeking practices that will work for us and help us achieve a better state are things that everybody can work towards. So hopefully everybody will pick up on some ideas here in this conversation that'll resonate and maybe a new way, a little bit of a different perspective of looking at some of these things as opportunities to make choices and decisions that will serve us better versus you know, things that were just kind of predetermined to have to suffer through. But and in those times where there are circumstances and environments that clearly have, there's a rot at the core that we'll also be better able to identify those as What they are, right As a negative circumstance, a ne and be able to seek out better solutions rather than feel like it's just a symptom of that's infecting everything everywhere. Because that's important as well. You know, we know we really it's the choices and [00:35:00] decisions we make as individuals that also influence and hopefully encourage better systemic decision making and creation of environments and. You know, you, sometimes you vote with your feet. And you know, when it's clear that educators are gravitating toward schools and districts and environments that are doing things the right way and creating a better, healthier environments and putting in place better support for educators, then that will put pressure on everybody to get on board with that. And. That will be much better for students as well. So a lot of great stuff there. Danielle, one last question to you. Is there one takeaway that you would love our listeners to remember here? One, one thing, if this is if these are new ideas to them, like one thing that they can sort of just reflect on and think about. Danielle Nuhfer: I think I'd love to just go back to the two. the take a day and just track how you're feeling. Like, you can do that tomorrow. [00:36:00] You know, track the way you're feeling, try to trace your tendencies, trace those emotions, and then proceed with trying to Investigate. So be an investigator. What's going on and why might it be going on? And that's a great place to start as a teacher, to just really get laser focused on how am I feeling, and then be a little curious about it. So we can all do that with an open mind, and you can do that tomorrow. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, listeners, you can learn more about the Path of the Mindful Teacher at Danielle's website, which is teachingwell. life forward slash book. And that'll tell you where to buy it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop. org, etc. And you can also learn more about Danielle Danielle's other work there on the website. Anything else people should check out there? Danielle Nuhfer: Yeah, if you want to if anybody wants to bring any of this work to their schools, I love to partner with school leaders who are ready [00:37:00] to help their teachers and support their teachers bring mindfulness practices to school. So they can schedule a call with me teachingwell. life forward slash call and we can start talking about You know what your school district looks like and how I can support you through some of my programming to bring some of this work directly to your teachers. Ross Romano: Excellent. So check that out, if this would be beneficial to you and your teachers, and it likely would, but you know who you are, listeners, so check that out. Please do also subscribe to the Authority for more in depth author interviews like this one coming your way every week, and visit bpodcast. network to learn about all of our shows. Danielle, thanks again for being here. Danielle Nuhfer: Thanks so much.