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The Best of Kasim Hussien: Communication, Leadership & Psychological Safety · Speaking of Meaning

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Timing is vital.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are, as you say, emotionally invested, then perhaps take a step back.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Don't send that email.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Today is Friday.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Send it on Monday.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: Don't call that person when you are too emotionally invested, angry, emotional.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wait.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Let the heat cool down before you take action.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes you don't even recognize that it's not a good time to send an email.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's an autopilot.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is that an autopilot?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think all of us would probably like to have a clean sheet with saying
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: that now we're going on a weekend, we need to get everything out there, right?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to wait until Monday.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where it becomes a challenge, right?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you recognize your own bias, right?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that you can do is actually to have
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: a very healthy feedback culture in your organization.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are communicating in the way that you have used to do for a long time
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  SPEAKER_00: and people don't tell you anything about the impact or the lack
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: of impact you are having with the words that you are saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: then it's difficult to do anything about it.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's why having a very healthy feedback culture is important.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then you mentioned giving feedback and then you give the feedback
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: and people don't get the feedback as you intended.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: We need to have some guidelines on how we give feedback.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the guidelines should be agreed from both sides.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: The one that is giving the feedback and the one that is receiving the feedback, right?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are not doing that, then we have a tendency to focus on the negative things.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: All the time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Every time we give feedback, we are focusing on what went wrong.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's even more important to give feedback when things go right.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because when things go right and you give feedback and you agree on the condition of
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: the feedback, then you will have a team member that is fully motivated.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: But if you keep giving feedback when your team members are doing something wrong,
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  SPEAKER_00: Then I will guarantee you, you will have a team member that is demotivated, right?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: So basically create a culture where you give feedback and you agree upon how
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: to give feedback,
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  SPEAKER_01: how to receive feedback,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: but also give feedback even when somebody's doing something right.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because usually I'm used to people giving me feedback when I look back at
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: when I used to work in the corporate world,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: We gave each other feedback every time something went wrong and almost never
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: when something went right.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a healthy feedback culture, right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because then you almost have like people having opportunities to behave, right?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: They will always give you feedback to,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying look down on you,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: but they will just give it You're not there for the team spirit.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're not there for lifting people, right?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because it has a totally different impact.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that you should not give feedback if people are not doing something
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: that they should do.
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  SPEAKER_00: But we need to give constructive feedback.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we talked about for centuries,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was about to say, but it's important to give constructive feedback.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: But what we tend to do is,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: because we are operating a very fast-paced environment,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: that we give feedback and then we're only focusing on what are the challenges.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: We focus only on the negative things.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I like that feedback culture where we all agree how we should give feedback
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  SPEAKER_01: and how we should take the feedback we get.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if we agree on that, then this is our deal.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think what it allows is...
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  SPEAKER_00: To make it more comfortable to give feedback, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because one thing is to receive feedback.
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  SPEAKER_00: Another thing is to give feedback.
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  SPEAKER_01: So Kasim,
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: we've talked about guidelines,
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: creating a culture where we all agree on how we should give each other feedback.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we can have the guidelines,
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  SPEAKER_01: we can have the culture,
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  SPEAKER_01: but if I'm not comfortable giving feedback,
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  SPEAKER_01: then I'm not going to create the change I would like to see.
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  SPEAKER_01: So my question to you is, how can we have courage to give feedback?
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  SPEAKER_00: So creating psychological safety in your team is important and basically that's
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: about making sure that you include all, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: You create the space so people feel that they are heard and they can contribute
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  SPEAKER_00: without being judged, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what's important for you as a leader.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: So for people to feel that I feel safe here in this environment.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is crucial.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is crucial.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think another point is actually when it comes to conflicts, for example, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: We tend to think that conflicts are bad, but conflicts can be really good, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: How?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: How?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Conflicts can be good if you are having healthy conflicts in your team.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that is where people can have different opinions, again, without being judged.
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  SPEAKER_00: And people feel that they can come up with different opinions.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think we should encourage people to be opinionated about things.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we should create, again, the space for them to do so without us judging.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you should, as a leader, call out if people are starting to get personal, right?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because then you are also recognizing that now they are actually...
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  SPEAKER_00: We are not now having a healthy conflict here.
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  SPEAKER_00: What we are having now is a personal conflict.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the difference, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: So we want to move away from having personal conflict to have healthy conflicts.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Healthy conflict where we discuss the issues, how to move forward.
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  SPEAKER_01: And once we agree on which path to take, everybody is on board.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it could also be that you are not on board with the decision.
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  SPEAKER_00: You still feel that the decision that is being made is not the right one.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: But when we leave the room, we are all in the same ship.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You told me one time that a leader has two responsibilities.
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  SPEAKER_01: Number one is motivating the team.
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  SPEAKER_01: And number two is leading upwards.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, how do you as a leader handle the different ways to communicate?
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  SPEAKER_01: Number one, with your teams where you have to motivate them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And number two, with senior leadership to lead upwards.
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  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that you are able to motivate your team, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: You're able to motivate your team,
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  SPEAKER_00: set clear directions and making sure
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  SPEAKER_00: that everybody actually understands what is expected of them.
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  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is that we as leaders should also be able to communicate upwards.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what do I mean about that?
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean about building trust with senior stakeholders, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And the senior stakeholders,
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  SPEAKER_00: they feel that you and your team are able to deliver on the goals, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: They trust you basically, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to the first one, how can you do that?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: How can you motivate your team?
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  SPEAKER_00: And how can you make sure that the way that you communicate is something that
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: brings
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  SPEAKER_00: the team closer, so to speak, and don't divide the team, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think I already mentioned one of them, which is the psychological safety, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: That is one thing because that is, I will see that is a fundamental thing, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: That you need to have that fundamental thing in place and it takes time.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you cannot just expect from one day to another that you have to create
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  SPEAKER_00: a psychological safety.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's not how it works.
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  SPEAKER_00: But then there's other things that you as a leader,
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  SPEAKER_00: that you are able to convey your message directly In a way that is well understood,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds easy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm saying, yes, you should do A and B.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I mean.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, sometimes we need to...
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  SPEAKER_00: Give more transparency of why are we going from A to B, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why is this important?
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  SPEAKER_00: What would it mean for you, for me, for the team?
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  SPEAKER_00: So people get that understanding, right?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we need to connect the dots and that is where it's really important
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  SPEAKER_00: that you as a leader are able to communicate that in a very effective way.
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  SPEAKER_01: It seems like we always go back to trust and
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  SPEAKER_01: And communication.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think now we have talked a lot about verbal communication, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not only about the words that you put out.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's also about what are you doing in the meeting, for example?
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  SPEAKER_00: How are you sitting?
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  SPEAKER_00: How are you listening?
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  SPEAKER_00: Right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And one thing is active listening.
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  SPEAKER_00: So as a leader, that is a crucial skill that you need to learn.
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  SPEAKER_00: You need to learn to listen and listen a little bit more and listen again, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because what we have a tendency to think that we as a leader should come up with all
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: the answers to the questions.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's not correct.
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  SPEAKER_00: What we need to do is to make sure that we as a whole come up with the best solution to things.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the one way to do so is to listen and listen to words that have been said and
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  SPEAKER_00: then challenge those things.
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  SPEAKER_01: So active listening,
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  SPEAKER_01: is that in your opinion,
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  SPEAKER_01: is the difference between what separates great leaders from average leaders?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a big question.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think definitely that is something that I feel is lacking.
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  SPEAKER_00: When I now have been in a lot of different settings and I feel like
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  SPEAKER_00: the active listening is something that is missing because what I recognize is
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  SPEAKER_00: When you are in a meeting,
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  SPEAKER_00: then let's just say I'm sitting there with senior stakeholders and then I'm trying
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: to say something.
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  SPEAKER_00: I can immediately see if a senior stakeholder is,
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  SPEAKER_00: or it could be a team member or whatever,
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  SPEAKER_00: but if somebody is actually already thinking about what they should say
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  SPEAKER_00: and not listening to what I'm saying, right?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's usually what happens,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we are so much focusing on our own answers,
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  SPEAKER_00: on our own narrative, and that we forget that we should also listen.
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  SPEAKER_01: And not just listen, but actively listen, really take in what the other person is feeling.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, this is what empathy is all about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Empathy is not about agreeing with the person.
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  SPEAKER_01: But more understanding where they're coming from.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm going to understand where you're coming from,
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  SPEAKER_01: I have to make you feel that I have listened and you feel
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: that you are also being seen, valued and heard.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Again, psychological safety, I guess.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think don't fake anything.
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  SPEAKER_01: Instead, just be yourself.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you're afraid, say you're afraid.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you're nervous, say you're nervous.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because emotions are contagious.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we can feel it when somebody is not being genuine.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so my advice is always be yourself.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Great advice.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Great advice here.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is about framework and tools.
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  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned one time when I was talking to you about a framework called SCQA,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: the mental principles.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us what that is?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I can do so.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the SEQA, as you mentioned, is a well-known framework usually used by consultants.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the S stands for Situation,
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  SPEAKER_00: the C stands So,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's actually built on something called the Minto Principle,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is created by Barbara Minto, which is a former McKinsey consultant.
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  SPEAKER_00: So basically,
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  SPEAKER_00: the mental principle is the overarching concept
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  SPEAKER_00: of how you can structure your argument in a very top-down way.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, starting with the answer.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: While the SCQA is a framework that is specific to...
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  SPEAKER_00: We use to,
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  SPEAKER_00: how can you say,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: graph fitting the introduction of a presentation,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  SPEAKER_00: or a meeting or something like that before you actually get to the answer itself,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, and you can use it for reports, meetings, presentations, emails, et cetera.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we can try to go through the framework, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if we start with the S, so S is the situation as I mentioned, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Situation.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: So situation, basically telling something that the receiver already knows and accept to be true.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: And why is that important?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because that is the introduction that we are giving, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if we are not getting people on board immediately, then we have lost it.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to tell something that all people that are sitting in the room can say yes to.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And typically it's a fact-based statement, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Where are we now?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Where do we want to go?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then we have the complication.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the complication is something that is a challenge with the current situation.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be something that is stopping us from getting from A to B, for example, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's actually, that's the problem, so to speak.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you have communicated the situation,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: you have communicated the communication, then you have the question, right?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the question is typically implied because that is something that people will sit
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: with, okay, you have stated the situation, the communication, So what now, right?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: How can we fix this?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is where you get to the answer, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the answer is typically a simple sentence that sums up your presentation,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: your findings, your conclusion or recommendations.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: You also call it the governing thought, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Then, of course, your answer or your governing thought is supported by, you know, other key,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Arguments, right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: And typically,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: if you look at it from a report point of view,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: you will have a section, different sections that together sum up the recommendation.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this seems very conceptual or something like that at the moment,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe let me give you an example, if that's okay.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do that.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: The answer is the A, right?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the answer is the A.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we have the S is the situation,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: the C is the complication, the Q is the question, and the A is the answer.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, go ahead, give us an example.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so let me just think it through.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just say we have a company, right?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the situation could be something like that.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Until recently,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: we had a strong position in a high market share in a very profitable market,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: for example, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the complication is that we are surprised
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: that our competitor has taken XX percent of the market share
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: in this very profitable market.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then you will sit back with, okay, what has caused this shift, right?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the answer could be something like our loss of market share is caused
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: by problems with our actual and perceived quality of the products that we deliver.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's just to give you an idea, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: could be that you have experienced major increase in quality issues
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: that has been reported from customers.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: It could also be that When they contact you, you give a very poor service, for example, right?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then also that it could be that the competitors have done a lot
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: of marketing campaigns, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So your answer is usually backed up with much more data.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what this help is, the framework, is it allows you to tell a story, basically.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Tell a story, yeah.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Tell a story in a very simple way that is something that people can follow.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just say if I give an answer and I immediately start to say, yeah,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: so we have a lot of problem with product A and we have a lot of problem
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: with product B.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have also seen there are some campaigns going on from our competitor A.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have lost people because it's very difficult to conceptualize it in a way, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And also to understand it because you are all over the place.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to make it simple for the reader,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: for the audience to comprehend what is it that is being said.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we use typically this way of telling a story.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: If you are at work And you want to be a more effective communicator or a more effective leader.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: What small habit can our listeners start practicing starting today?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think before you actually start to speak, you need to think about communication, right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the one thing is the ACQA,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: but I think there's another thing that you can use as well,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: which is that if you think about communication in three phases,
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is actually the preparation, where you set yourself up for success.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have the second one,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: which is actually during the conversation, where you observe and adapt.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing is the reflection part, right, where you learn and improve.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if we go to the first one, which is the preparation, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have talked about some of the things,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: but is to take the time that is needed before meeting or conversation and reflect on
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: who is it that I'm going to talk with?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Who is the audience?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: For example, if your audience is CFOs, then you probably need to get your numbers right, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because that will be something that they will be looking for.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And why are we actually having this conversation in the first place?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: What would a win look like for me and for the audience as well?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So having all these things in your mind and so you're setting yourself up for success.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the first thing, the preparation that goes into that.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I see that as the fundamentals that you need to be in place.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Then we also talk about like during the conversation, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the ability to observe and adapt.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think I mentioned active listening, listen, listen again and listen a little bit more.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: That is important because we want to look at what is it people that are saying,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: why are they saying the things they are.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So go behind the words, so to speak, right?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that will allow us to have great conversations.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I think one thing is that It's actually rarely that the best conversation
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: that you are having is actually the ones that go after your plan, right?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because so much happened during a meeting that you need to have that kind
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: of flexibility to adjust, basically, right?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the last one is something that I think a lot of people forget is
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: the reflection part.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that is actually where you talk about learn,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: not talk about where you think about learn and improve.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we think about like reflection should be something that take half an hour, one hour.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: It can be two, three, four minutes, right?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's top of your head.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Write down what do you think went well?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think you should change for the next time?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you just get that right, you're in a really good position.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then we talked about feedback, right?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is also an area where you can get feedback so you can...
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Tell a colleague, hey, I'm going into this presentation with you.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you please be mindful of, not mindful of, can you please pay attention to my body language?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or can you pay attention to when I'm communicating the numbers?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are they, you know, am I making my point clear or something like that?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or what's important is that you are being very,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know, clear on what is it that they should give you feedback on.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So not just going to say, hey, can you give me feedback on how it went with the presentation?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: They will talk about a lot of different things.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if you narrow it down to, hey,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: body language, the way I convey the numbers, then you're being very, very specific.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also helpful.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think these three phases,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: if you have that in your mind, that could also make a lot of improvement.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is it hard not to take things personally?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: You have done an analysis and then people don't agree with the analysis.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: You have put so much effort into it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Of course you will take it personally, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So don't take it personally.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Life is too short for that.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: share it with someone you care about,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: a friend, a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ibrahim.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.