Latest / The Backdrop Podcast / Episode 14 - Christophe Draye, Founder and CEO of World Wide Wonders and Managing Partner of Scenaxis Group

Transcript

Episode 14 - Christophe Draye, Founder and CEO of World Wide Wonders and Managing Partner of Scenaxis Group · The Backdrop Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to the backdrop.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: This week's guest is Christophe Dre, one of the Middle East event industry's top 100 most influential people and a career that has crossed the commercial, creative, and delivery sides of global entertainment.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Over more than 22 years, Christophe has helped develop the international footprint of companies including GL Events, PRG, Filmmasters, Cirque de Soleil, 45 Degrees and Five Currents, while leading major ceremonies and productions, including the Asian Games, SEA Games, Expo 2020 Dubai, and Frankel Dragon's final masterpiece, Terhal.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: Today, he is founder and CEO of Worldwide Wonders and managing partner of Synaxis Group, advising owners, investors, and buyers on entertainment assets, intellectual property acquisitions, and strategic transactions.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: So this week in the backdrop, we sit down with Christophe Dre to explore a remarkable career built at the intersection of business, investment, entertainment, and extraordinary live experiences.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the still still a lot coming.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we see good sign.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: So uh hopefully, you know, hopefully with the Formula One being confirmed, uh it's gonna be like uh a relief as well for the uh for the event industry.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: So plus um I think as well that for the um international um uh visitors you know should be as well more confident.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: So there's still uh still few things to be done.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know if it's from the government or from the industry, but uh but all fine, I think I I can see uh I can see good signs.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully, you know, the situation is gonna be uh, you know, with uh what's what's happening in the region, but uh but I I can see a good sign.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I can see as well, you know, in the region, you know, the and especially in uh especially in UAE.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: We need some um some more um uh incentives uh maybe with new uh new events, but I think uh I think you know everything everything's gonna be uh is gonna be much uh um much better than it was uh than it was you know for the last uh for the last five months.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: So no, for sure.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we have um there seems to be things happening.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's that international contingency that we really need to start bringing here.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think that should come soon, but the passion is there and the interest is there, and the and the and the that uh desire to get everything kicked off is there.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: We're now into September.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, and before we started chatting, we were going through the um I was before we started recording, I should say, we started going down memory lane, and we always do this.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Whenever we get guys have been here, been around for a long time, we start talking about, you know, it started, I think, with Mark, Mark Banesha, who we both know, um, is that you know, we're talking about sand dance and we talk about all these different and and when you know adnec being built, and back in the days when when things were a little bit different and they really picked up speed, and it's it's really cool to to reminisce so uh it's nice having the guests on that have been around for a while that we can have these conversations.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um But you know, you've been named in the 100 most influential events people.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um fun fact, I am number four hundred and eighty-seven thousand.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: I've jumped up three uh since last year.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but seriously, it's it's uh it's great to have someone that has such a has had such a robust journey of going back.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: Your profile is is it could be, you know, it's a size of war and peace.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's massive.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: But before we start talking about the new stuff and what you're doing now, let's go back a little bit to let's say GL Events.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: So when you were starting GL Events in Abu Dhabi, were you was it sort of um let's find the right office, let's find the right people, or was the focus really more on let's get servicing clients, let's find the right, let's let's capture the market?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: What was the big priority then?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: So look first of all, I had I mean a massive chance and um I mean working with the I mean with those prolific companies including GLE VENs, um to start you know to start a journey.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um so initially and lucky me I had uh I had the support as well, you know, of um uh GLE VENS management.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: So lucky lucky us when we started, there was more like to that Jacques d'Angers it no, it was Olivier Gignon and uh and uh Olivier Ferraton.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: So uh and at that time goal was to open and expand the GL Events Live division.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: So like exhibitions, uh conferences, and this is why Abu Dhabi was uh was as well, you know, the uh the the you know the goods the good city because GL Events was uh was already in Dubai, more service uh servicing the uh the exhibition, you know um industry, more like uh feat odd and the things.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: So so then we started GL Event Abu Dhabi to be more like their life division, if I may say, in uh in in uh in the region and in uh in and in the in the country.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: So then we did we did quite great things by the way in uh here because we opened uh um uh swimming, swimming and swimming pool and spa you know exhibition for the first and and it was the first exhibition of GLE events in the region.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um then we expanded as well to uh to sport, you know, working for the first um uh call um call it um the ocean race.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it was at the Volvo.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the Volvo.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And Jerry even was involved in Abu Dhabi for the first time and the first stop.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it was uh so it was a great experience.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um great partners as well in Abu Dhabi at that time, and it was, you know, and the conferences and exhibition business at that time was really you know uh booming uh in the in the region.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: We did with GL Events, by the way, as well, the first the first world uh uh um world energy forum in uh in Dubai.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so we launched it.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, it was uh it was kind of a great initiative for GL Events.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: So then after GL Events continue, you know, doing you know the and and they expand by the way in the region.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they did, you know, I mean we did as well with GL Events, the World Petroleum Congress in Qatar.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: So at that time in 2000, uh 20 uh 10.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: So and then now the GL Events is more like at that time, GL was more like, I mean, as I said, more like a servicing exhibition company, yeah.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh working a lot with the uh World Trade Center, and then after was more like uh was more like um an even management production company rather than only servicing.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: So uh yeah, it was it was a great experience, and I was lucky that uh I mean the management could uh you know could uh support me as well.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, I'm I'm very happy to that GL came you know to my uh uh to my path at that on.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I've I've worked, I've had the the the pleasure working with GL many, many times, many years ago.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um really, really great team.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: I remember they had a little office in Alcose.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you wouldn't even see it if you passed by, but you go inside everybody's really busy working and and it's uh so much going on.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: But um yeah, it was really a great uh experience working with GL.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: But then then there was a gear house.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: So um let me preface this.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: There was the Gearhouse Arabia acquisition that you were a part of, and you seem to be in the center of of all of these advisory and acquisitions and mergers and and and all of that for for the reason or sorry sorry for the purpose of not just competing or trying to, but but to reshape the industry in a way.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: So did you find that that gear house acquisition was more to sort of um not instead of competing with them, just own them and then use that uh vehicle to reshape how things operate from from that from the tech.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: So look as a long time ago, I think look when when I joined PRG and just after uh GL events, PRG was I mean uh was one of the largest still still today, by the way, but at that time was the largest, you know, AVL company and technology company.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: So but without any base in the region.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: So then lucky me again, I met with uh I met with uh Tom, uh was the vice president of uh PRG and uh and CEO of PRG at that time uh Europe and uh and Middle East as they call it.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: So asking to pave the foundation of PRG in the region.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: So strategy at the beginning was more like to look for projects.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: So so then we so then we did we did few um but without without having a base.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: So then the so one of my assignments at that time was like to I mean as I say pave the foundations, either you know, PLG coming from scratch, like Blue Ocean, yeah, or then uh or then acquiring a company.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: So at that time, I'll have to say there were very few companies, you know, or able to you know meet uh PRG standards.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously, and then uh there was uh and then there was Gehouse.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: So and Gehouse was always you know working, you know, working with PRG in the region for big projects.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I remember Bahrain, uh, or even you know uh an opening in uh an opening in uh of a stadium in um in Saudi Arabia.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: But PRG wanted to be in the region, knowing you know, knowing the future.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: So they need they needed, you know, like they needed a base.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the and I think the faster was to was to acquire a um a reputable you know company and uh and one of them was Gehouse.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: So then uh at the end of the day, after after a year and a half, so we uh so we, I mean PRG acquired uh acquired uh acquired gear to become PRG no uh Middle East, but and there was an interesting an interesting move when you knew at that time the region.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: So big projects, you know, the uh the New Year's Eve, the Khalifa opening.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh by the way, we worked with uh with Avant Garde at that time, yeah uh Prism as well.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: So the the move was to was really interesting to see at that time because because nowadays then they did more and more, you know, and uh uh AVL company, but technology speaking, there were very few in the world.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: But what was interesting is in um in Dubai there were like literally four four really interesting and big companies uh which could which could which could compete with uh with PRG.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: One was Gehos, and then uh then there are two others by the way, like Protec at the time and um and Eclipse, which which today is encore, um with my um Mark Brown, uh late Mike Brown, Seb.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um and those companies were like the even not as big as uh as big as was PRG, but they were very um successful compared to compared to PRG.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: And Gehose, uh it was the it was the one at the end of the day we we decided to part the two to partner in uh in into a quiet air time, but uh was maybe the more the more international one with standards and you know and uh but very it was a very interesting time.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: So there was PRG and of course GL.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: It seems like you were slightly moving, your your it's like this gradient throughout your career.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Then came cirque sole, 45 degrees.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Then you unlocked the creative side that that sort of flourishing creative side within your mind that said was that a pivot point for you where you where you said, now I want to start instead of just supplying, I want to know, I want to be part of the sort of the creative efforts and and the experience more than just supplying it and becoming a you know a servicing.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: So during my time with PRG, I met with uh I knew him, uh I knew him before, but I met with uh an exceptional uh mentor, still today, by the way, who is uh Piero Codzi uh from Filmmaster.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: So gave me uh gave me this chance to you know work on the creative side of the of the let's say of the event industry.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh gave me as well the chance you know to meet with other people, uh especially internationally.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then thanks to thanks to him, I mean uh uh I brought they they they they brought I mean Filmaster, they brought to me like uh a different network.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, with Olympics and and uh even if I knew before, but uh thanks to PLG as well, by the way.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it came to it came at a point that is that it was good to see the other side of the of the industry.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: So creative uh production and uh and management as such rather than to pro rather than to supply and providing you know uh or technologies and so on.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks to thanks to Filmaster and Pierrot.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I truly change you know the way I see as well events.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Starting, you know, with starting more with creative, starting more with uh with production, and um and as I say, thanks to thanks to thanks to them as well, and thanks to Pierrot to and Filmaster to enjoy a bit more what's what's the other side of large-scale mega events.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: So but um and and still today, by the way, uh I mean when when you when you speak about, you know, when you speak about Filmaster, Filmaster still uh still still a big company, you know, in uh in our industry and is one of the one of the big four as we call them.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: So opened, you know, opened a different a different view.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: So then I was approached by uh I was approached by uh by um by Cirque du Soleil.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: So Cirque du Soleil at that time were just bored by uh by a big um uh American company, uh TPG, and uh and they wanted to change the way the the way they wanted, you know, to or cirque me, uh more cirque.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: They wanted to be more like in the uh in the live events and uh live event industry.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: So um doing more like ceremonies and uh and and large mega events.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I I had this opportunity to join Serie du Soleil.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: At that time, it was like a bit difficult because it was just just after the uh the acquisition by uh by TPG.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh it was uh it was for me very uh I mean honestly a very good experience, but at the same time a bit like uh um a bit like difficult.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, being in the region, travel, you know, leaving as well, you know, the region, going to Montréal.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: So uh and with the strategy there was not really you know very clear uh from cirque, but still it was uh we we pitched great events, we did great events like the Pan American Games in Toronto with five turns.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but um but I believe uh I believe as well it was uh it was a a too early stage for for cirque.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, but uh but I like my time with uh it was uh it was a great uh honestly it was a great experience.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um I would have expected maybe a more structured organization.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, not talking about SIRC but the C division for uh for special projects.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and when when I joined, it was uh I joined as an executive director.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it was very early.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously, and unfortunately, and obviously, uh SIRC was not uh was not ready at that time, you know, for special projects.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's uh SIC is a big machine, a beautiful machine, by the way.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: But uh but it was not maybe the right timing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so then COVID hit, and it was uh and then finally they closed the they closed the they closed the division.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um start and uh still and today they're starting again, you know, this special projects, you know, division.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love Cirque and I've uh and I will have uh always a lot of respect for uh for SIR, but it was uh I believe at that time it was maybe um a too early you know decision, especially after the after the acquisition of uh of SIR by TPG.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh yeah, but still uh still uh I mean I don't uh I don't regret anything.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it is just we we should have maybe um have a better strategy at that time.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh yeah this is uh you know this is circus I mean uh again I mean is a is a is an exceptional company.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and again I I was glad working for them.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean uh honestly uh I don't regret anything, and it was I mean it was a very, very great uh very good experience.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um so you continued from that that that journey of creativity into um technical production, back to technical production, but as an event director, I think it was the Jakarta uh Palembang uh Asian games.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Is that correct?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you were event director, you're working with massive amounts of performers and technical specialists, and there is so much going on.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: What is there any did you lose any sleep over the fact that if Something failed, there's no redundancy, there's no B plan because this is a live event.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what kept you up at night?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, look.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, again, I was lucky that during my journey I met with uh with Scott Scott Givens, the uh CEO and founder of Five Currents.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh and he is a great uh he's a great producer.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um he I mean he can do he can do many things that mean that then many cannot do.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So for Asia, if we take, for instance, the uh the Asian games, Asian Games was my first biggest contract ever.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um so then obviously I think the most difficult, obviously production is the most difficult, but you know, dealing with dealing with clients is uh is another is another thing.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we and again Scott is uh Scott and and team are the uh I mean uh are the most I mean as far as I know so but by far the most you know um professional as well as the uh in in and and knowing him, he can he have many plans.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's a plan B, a plan C, so but uh so I was I was very lucky, you know, with this first contract with five currents.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the but the most difficult, I mean as I said, is the production, but I think the most difficult as well is before getting the getting the contract.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a it's a it's a long process, especially before before COVID, it was a it was a longer process, but uh the the relationships and the way people perceive you on the client side is uh is very important.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: So this is all you're successful.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: So if if they don't trust and believe you in all you can produce or you are confident in producing, because this is important as well, if you can not confident, and this is what this is what this is where Scott was really good.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we uh we cannot succeed.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So and I believe the the big productions start before production.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if the client trusts and have and has a confidence to with you, it's much you know it will help you to be more successful in producing.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where I believe sometimes when we when we speak about project management, it's not only project management during the event, it's project management before the event.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: So and this is where this is where it's sometimes a very, very difficult, you know, understanding for people, you know, when they when you say, are you lucky you did Asian games, are you lucky you did Olympic games, or but yes, we're lucky, yeah, but it's not the it's not the production itself, yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's all the month or year before before you produce.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what this is why I mean again I was lucky um working alongside with uh with Scott Givens and uh and and with Five Curns because I learned a lot as well.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so Asian games for me is is one of my uh it's one of my favorite and uh preferred show.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Not the most difficult, but the preferred one.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it was because of because of all the processes, yeah.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh this is why I like in this uh I mean in my work, is not only to produce, it's everything you know before producing.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's a kind of a so sometimes we say, you know, like you you're producing a lot, you know, mega events, or but and as I said, is because we good it in what we could deliver, and we're good in what we say to the client.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: So and this is why there are not a lot of companies on the planet, you know, that I can say, yeah, we did Olympics or we did Asian games ceremonies or whatever, they're very few because they're all good in before producing.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: No, I I think that's I I commonly use the term, and I use it so much that I said, maybe I haven't got to find another word for, but nothing describes it better when you're talking about the buildup and the development.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: I always use the word minutiae, and that's just the small little details that are not just small, they all add up to the big final reveal, you know, the the big production, the big launch.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's all the little things.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's the right hiring, it's it's getting the right um the right designs in place, getting those approvals for the designs in time.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's it everything adds up.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's a machine, you know, and once one of the one one of the part of the machine, the cog something breaks or falls out, it really does disruptive, you know?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is all about the experience as well, you know.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: When I mean as I said, so you know, there's there's only there's not only one plan, there's there are many plans.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: So um or yeah, there are many plans.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you you know, it's it's very when it comes to big, I mean large mega events, you you need several plans, and um, and the beauty is that we know what are the plans.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: So because as I said, prior to the to a contract, you have a confidence, you have trust, you know the you've learned, you have made your researches, you and the and and and the plan will help you.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do all this work before, then producing is more easy.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: So uh and this this is why you know we we you cannot you cannot enter to this uh to this industry like big events, uh call it mega events or large event or or or large um large events too, just randomly.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it doesn't work.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a I mean as I said, there's a process.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's not only creative, creative is one.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if if you're good creatively speaking, obviously it helps you.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know it works.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: So when I did and when I did the um the the the opening ceremony, or when we won the opening and closing ceremony for expo in Dubai, so there was a long process, creative production, I mean clients should trust you.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, there are very, very few companies.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not saying that you cannot, I mean, that there are not companies you know capable to do it, but there's a process.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't have the process, or to understand how long first how long it could take, it would be difficult.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm really glad that you you highlighted that point, you underscored that because I I had this conversation recently um with uh someone that I'm I'm doing some work with, and I explained that when you have a process in place, when you have structure and you're organized, you're well organized, you can be virtually on autopilot.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: You once you have the process working for you, and you're not just it's not chaos, it's just random.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: You I always say I'm a bit annoying this way.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Every meeting needs to have an agenda.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Every, every, if you're working in programming, you need and you're speaking and you're doing research or benchmarking, have a process in place.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: What are the questions you need to ask?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: Get everything.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: If it's just a if it's just random, you're gonna start flying off the track and it's just gonna be a complete mess.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: So um, someone's gonna be watching this and they'll be saying, Oh, okay, here we go again.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, okay, so you went from the Asian games to this enormous production, scope, scale.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was uh, you know, sleepless nights, I'm sure, in the development of it, but successful, perfect.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: Then SEA uh in in the games in Manila, and then Expo 2020.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: So then you went from you went from this massive production, what everything led up to that day, to having to create programming for six up to six months and and you know, day by day by day by day.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: How did you uh how do you what is the difference in your mind when you're leading up to one massive day to a lot of very important days, but you're you're talking a lot of days of programming.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's enough to make anyone so look, uh first of all, I think the uh I think you you rely on your team.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so meaning like programming for expo 2023, uh in Doha, so you rely uh you rely on a team that they can support obviously all the creative programming, and but again, most difficult is to manage expectations.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: So clients is always you know what whatever it could, you know, clients is always you know different expectations because they can change their mind.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: So at some point the the in this industry, project management is not only a line, it's how to understand you know, or all the create all your clients creative, you know, could be could change.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So in a in a in the construction industry, you build a building and you build a building, you have lines, and you follow, you know, uh a project management.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: In our case, when it comes to creative, it's very subjective.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: It can change.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've and I've experienced it as well with expo.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: It can change, it can, it can be different.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the people involved, you know, uh have different ideas, and and it's very difficult to not difficult, but it's it's it's somewhat a child, it's somewhat challenge where you have to deal with these different um um different mindsets.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um because we we we build something, and we build our job is to build an emotion that obviously will last for long.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: So and it's difficult when you have when you have a client where they can change their can change their mind every time.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, as I said, we're not building a build, we're not building like a skyscraper.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's completely different.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're building, we're building create an emotion, so we see which is very difficult as well in a space.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: So then a line in the project management, uh I mean it's we need it, but it's you need as well to speak often with the client.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: You need to be, you know, to challenge as well to know the client to tell, you know, like this is not maybe a good idea, blah blah blah, because the venue, blah blah blah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: So the so this is why is it the most important is obviously to deliver, but most important as well is to deliver what the client wants.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: And because they can change.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like the the final product is what you told them before you know doing the pitch, but the final product might change a lot.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, and this is where you know you you you need uh you need a bit of a tactical, you know, strategy.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, strategy, you know, not to not to change much more, you know, from what they have.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: But by the way, you have always you know budget constraint.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it this this is where we are.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, expo when you see things, do you do you I mean when you're when you're going through that, do and you see something that maybe could have a better impact, something that should change, because many of the clients understand what they want, but they don't understand how to get there sometimes, and they don't understand how things can be can create better, you know, a better result or even awareness or impact or or uh takeaways or or you know that do you do this is where they are good and bad companies, yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you you know what you can do, yeah, you know what is possible, um and you don't and and and and this is what it was great as well with uh uh with uh with with Scott and Five currents.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: So this is you don't you don't oversell.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: So because you have the experience, you don't you you will not tell, yeah, I can do it.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: So because you know it's not possible.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when it's possible, of course, you can influence you know the the the direction and maybe their strategy when it comes to creative, mainly.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh but it but it's uh I'd have to say it's a difficult exercise sometimes uh because clients they don't understand really you know the reality.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Meaning, you know, uh if they want uh, I don't know, uh got a project in Qatar a few times ago, and I mean a few months ago, and they wanted an hologram.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: But typically it was not was not possible.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we told them it's not possible, but it's it's a process to tell them, you know, this is you know, I know uh I mean, thanks to me, I can tell them I know it's not possible.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: But managing expectation is uh is is a very uh is is a very tough um tough exactly.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it is, especially when the expectation sometimes changes the day before.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: Especially in the reason.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, people know what they want until they want something else.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to talk about Tehal.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: So Tehal was the final creation of Frankel Dragon.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um when you delivered Tehal in RIA 2023.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: 2023, yeah.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Frankel Dragon was no longer there to oversee it.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: He'd left us, and you were you were past the conch to to the baton to to make it uh successful, which you did.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: What were there times during that development where you thought what would Franco have done?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'd have to say in my career um it was the most difficult time.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um so Franco, I mean I knew Franco for a long time.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: So and I remember we we we we discussed and spoke of the show, you know, uh during COVID, by the way.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I had the chance to to be with him.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um when when we did Terral um the the vision or Franco's creative vision was very clear.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we were lucky at some point uh because Franco before before sadly passed away in uh in September 22.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um we there was a there was a creative vision.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um the then the the issue was the issue was the client as well, you know, to deal with by the way, as I said before.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: So uh it was to deal with the with the with the client.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean the client was the Ministry of Culture of Saudi Arabia, and uh and and they were great.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean uh honestly when I told them I will always remember by the way, um when I told them in the in the theater side, then the theater was not built at that time, but I told them about Franco's passing.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um Kleiner was really I mean it was really great.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean that they wanted to continue the show, and I mean I remember as well, you know, the project director at that time from the client side said show must go on.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it was a great news, but so the vision, Franco's vision, um was already in the in the show.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: But obviously, you know, when you have a when you have someone for Franco, you know, like Franco passing and and uh you have to pass the button to someone, and at that time we didn't know because it was a bit like you know sudden.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um so there were kind of uh some conflict internally.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think the I think the management at that time as well, I mean did well.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh for for the for the good sake of the show.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um and and we knew all of us, we knew that we have we had to make it happen.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for Franco.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: So so we did it.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was not easy, you know.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh, you know, when you know Franco, I mean, as I said, it was it it was sudden.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we I mean the the uh the the the company the dragon company had to manage as well you know with this sudden uh uh situation.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so obviously there that there was you know some conflict internally, but I have to say that at the end of the day, I mean I believe the management did I mean did well despite you know the conflicts you know uh internally.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um then uh and and then we delivered the show.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the the show was the show was beautiful.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean as we as as we can all say it was uh it was uh the last uh the last Franco's creation.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: I believe the show was really great.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: The the artist as well, you know, by the way, yeah, this is very important to say, the artist as well put a lot of the of their efforts and and will to make it happen.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was very important as well because you know you can have the management, but if you don't have the artist, you know, the show does the show cannot exist.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the artist put a lot as well, you know, from them to make, you know, to make a great show.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think this it and I think it was important, it is it is one of the most important, you know, uh point um uh for the show to be uh um for this show, Terral, um to be as successful as that time.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean successful in a way that it was Franco's vision.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: So so now after Terral changed a little bit, you know, because they they made a second edition, but still it was um still it will remain a Franco's uh Franco's creation.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um but thanks to the management, I mean but as I said so thanks as well to the artist and I think the artist did a great work um uh to make it happen and so this is why sometimes you know when it comes to this large production so it's uh it's to deal with uh it's to it's not only to deal with clients as well but as well as you know especially when when in a in a difficult situation like with uh Franco's passing just to make all of us you know to to be like to be together yeah you know and uh and uh and this is why I mean this is what I said management did well but the artists all of them we were like a little bit more than uh that we were like a little less than 80 international so not not not talking about the uh the the Saudis but they were all together so everybody can f converge to create a tribute exactly yeah and they wanted to make it because it was the last uh the the last franco's creation yeah so and and and and this is why at some point it was like homage yeah so uh and see today I'm very proud I I I made it you know and of course not myself only but I made it and uh and for Franco because uh and as I said I remember and I will always remember we were I mean we're during COVID we're discussing about the show in Saudi we're discussing you know I mean I I've been many times in his place at the time he was sick as well by the way and um and to discuss you know what could be you know a show in Saudi.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And this show that we delivered in 23 we discussed in 20 in 2019.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And all over COVID we discussed about the show or could be the show and then when when the reality came you know when we finally we uh we we we have the we we have the client and and the and the investor by the way and the plan is in place and then it was you know like okay so now we we we can do it and unfortunately he couldn't see the show yeah but we made it PRG GL events um five currents circuit sole dragon like you have such an incredible uh like I said you know you this incredible journey of so many different styles and platforms and and approaches and and then you know Jakarta Manila Kuwait Dubai Riyadh all of these cities that you've created in where where would you I mean are there any locations any cities or countries that sort of forced you mentally to throw away like the international playbook the manual and create something for that culture was there was there one that made you feel that you just wanted to create something different and forget the playbook let's do something different was there one city or country or or project that you worked on that you felt that happening yeah it looks that's funny because it's not a show that we did by the way so unfortunately but uh but I believe the one was uh the one was in China um when I was with Scott as well uh we spent um spent a long day uh trying to trying to to you know tell the client you know what could be good for the for the for for for the island it was in Enan and uh and this one was completely out of uh out of all we could expect so we we came with a and I will always remember as well so we came with a project but we but during the discussion first of all it was a long time waiting for the you know for the big guy to come and and then when we when we were presenting we understand that it was not uh that it was not like uh it was a different a different different way to present so and the the the fact that we so we so then we changed we we changed completely or Scott's completely the the the the the the presentation because it was because we understood that it was not you know the it wasn't right so at the end of the day we told them you know something that it was very you know very China up and by the way not China but very you know his island because it was a it was his island so and then we so this is where we our standards obviously he chooses because of our standards but it was not you know the international way that you they wanted to have it uh for his uh for his team part so we we didn't at the end of the day we didn't uh we didn't win it but the but it was a great experience as well because it was completely different that the the all we all we could have presented uh a show a ceremony or and uh because it because it was very very very local and uh yeah this is this is my uh and yeah this is my best uh I would say um souvenir for uh you know for a presentation yeah which completely went you know when not when thought but it went not like we wanted you flavored it a different way yeah exactly yeah and uh and it was uh it was exceptional at the end um not the way we wanted as I said but it was exceptional so this is why sometimes you know we we we th and and I have to be honest so we we thought they would they would buy it because we were you know five currents and and um but at the end of the day didn't didn't really care he didn't give a shit so yeah that so we had to we had to judge a bit like oh yeah this is what you want okay so then we you know but um yeah it was uh this one was um was a very very uh very good uh very good memory yeah and uh yeah this is this is why sometimes international it's good to come with standard and these things but sometimes doesn't work so so there's a there's a natural progression in in in a career like yours there's where you are you're starting out you're learning you're learning then you're teaching then you're mentoring then you're you become sort of the the sage in that in the industry and that leads you to develop sort of an intuition an ability the capacity to to flag things to advise properly on projects because you know where the problems could arise and all of that so that natural advisory mentality I would think and please correct me if I'm wrong would easily help you to create something like Synaxis where you are in not so much and I'm not saying events focused but you're you're actively involved in both Synaxis and worldwide wonders and those are your creations and throughout the whole journey we've heard the past now we want to know about the present what in all of that led you to where you are now with these two enterprises also look again thanks to uh thanks to five trunes and Scott Gibbons so I learned I learned a lot and um and what I learned the most is that a lot of companies have assets IPs but they don't they don't um they don't know how to how to value them so and thanks for my experience with circ as well so the I have built a model for those companies to easily um propose and and sell the IPs so and and and this is and and and this is something where few people know of course I mean you you need a network right so because otherwise you cannot a network of investors a network of people you know able to able to understand and buy and buy IPs um but the companies and this is why I mean not not only small but even uh even larger companies so they don't know how to value it.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: Not because they don't know that they don't not because they only they don't know but as well as investors they have no clue.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: We are in a business that's it it can be like you know like sometimes you know uh high in in your in turnover because of good year and then low and then high so I did you know like three times no um valuations and and uh supporting you know uh uh the very very well known company I cannot disclose but very well known companies uh to help them uh in front of investors because investors I mean as I say they don't know they don't know I mean it can be like so it it it's a cycling industry so I mean as I say sometimes you can have a uh you know a very good here sometimes less good so and this is why you know if you if you're in the industry of large events or shows you can tell give benchmarks you know you can you know give your experiences uh to the uh to to investors or to uh a potential um um um acquires to you know so this is this is why you know um uh uh uh I thought and I said look this is this is a good you know this is a good timing as well there's more and more IPs there's more and more technologies affordable so and more and more affordable so meaning there are more and more people in more companies you know that I can you know create IPs so this is where I come and I can help them as well to tell them this is good for this country this is not good for this country so it's uh and this is why the international expertise and is uh is no that I'm happy to uh I'm happy to give you know and uh to to other companies and tell them look I mean you have a great idea or your idea is not you know but we know work yeah depending on where they want to where they want to go and no and nowadays I mean as I said technology is votable they are investors but there are very few companies that they can really you know push them you know push you know push forward the IDs and the IPs yeah so uh and this is where I come so it's all going in the right way yeah and worldwide wonders so uh it's uh it's more like uh it's more like a production company okay where I support you know more where I support you know more companies in the region to produce shows so I worked uh I was lucky to work with uh uh for the opening of the D W uh the new D Wa headquarter here with uh Publicis Life um as a show director um I was happy to do you know some uh opening uh opening and closing ceremonies in uh in Riyadh so it's more it's more it's more like a um a I call it more a creative production company so where we where I can bring with the creative um expertise and production because most of the I mean as I said I mean they're more the lot of companies but there are very few that can make really great shows I mean not great but big shows or big events so and this is where this is where I call that's where everything's going right now anyways is bigger bigger bigger so well Christoph I want to thank you so much for joining us honestly it was really really great i i think you um you know you were you were recommended and i said wait a second i know christoph I know we must have worked together in the past i in we thought through giel or something like that giel uh and then when i got in touch with you through through a common friend and you said i was already on your phone and you were already on my phone yeah it just shows how small the the events world is um and uh obviously we we all somehow have that six degrees of separation somewhere we all kind of know each other which is uh great it's like a a really special community here um but i'm really glad that you found the time to come and join us thanks to Paul really thanks to Paul the amazing Paul Grinnall uh he's uh he's been a he's been a great I think he's a he's gonna be now the new booking agent for if he wasn't a bit too busy he'd be uh he'd be on the show permanently as a booking now he's it's really amazing um uh yeah Paul's got a great network and really glad that uh I'm really glad we met I'm really glad to I mean maybe again but in person and hearing everything that you've uh your your whole journey and the path that led you where you are and it's uh some great stories and of course I love the memory lane stuff I love it it's a it's such a it's such a great uh city to reminisce because it's a young town and we've been there from early days so really great.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: No thank you Michael thank you team as well so uh but uh it was great and um I mean look uh there's many there's always many things you know that we can do but it's uh it's it's always too short you know to to speak in a so sh such a short time but uh but um I was happy thank you very much yeah my pleasure thank you very much thank you here at the backdrop we work hard to bring you the people the stories and the perspectives behind one of the world's most dynamic industries events so if you enjoy the conversations like comment subscribe and join in the conversation it all helps us keep the backdrop growing so thank you for watching the backdrop was recorded live at One Central in Dubai United Arab Emirates it was hosted by Michael McClennan and produced and edited by Dan Panel.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening