Latest / Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm / Deep Tech Start-Ups & Industrial Giants | Paul Mascarenas OBE, Ex-CTO of Ford Motor Company

Transcript

Deep Tech Start-Ups & Industrial Giants | Paul Mascarenas OBE, Ex-CTO of Ford Motor Company · Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm

• 0:00
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: How do you improve your odds?
• 0:01
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, a lot of technology comes in through the supply base.
• 0:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, whether it's tier one, whether it's tier two, whether it's tier three, those companies already have access, uh, to the engineering teams, to the purchasing teams, to the marketing teams at the larger OEMs.
• 0:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, they're always looking, um, to bring feature and technology to their OEM customers for the benefit of their own business.
• 0:37
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, sometimes they're just more accessible, you know, sometimes they're more open to working with a smaller partner, to working with a startup.
• 0:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, another way is to leverage advisors, to leverage investors, um, you know, venture funds for example, you will often have, uh, venture partners or advisors that have got access to the OEMs.
• 1:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, it's about, it's about opening the door.
• 1:11
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's about being able to demonstrate in a very compelling and efficient pitch that you've really got something that this OEM wants to bring to their customer.
• 1:25
  Chris Reichhelm: Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast.
• 1:28
  Chris Reichhelm: Too many advanced science and engineering companies fail to deliver their innovations.
• 1:33
  Chris Reichhelm: From the lab to the market,, we're on a mission to change that.
• 1:37
  Chris Reichhelm: My name is Chris Reichhelm, and I'm the founder and CEO of Deep Tech Leaders.
• 1:42
  Chris Reichhelm: Each week we speak with some of the world's leading entrepreneurs, investors, corporates, and policy makers about what it takes to succeed on the lab to market journey.
• 1:52
  Chris Reichhelm: Join us.
• 1:53
  Chris Reichhelm: For those of you who are targeting automotive or industrial domains, you need to listen to this week's podcast.
• 2:01
  Chris Reichhelm: I have none other than Paul Mascarenas.
• 2:05
  Chris Reichhelm: Paul Mascarenas, for those of you who don't know, was the CTO, Chief Technical Officer, of the Ford Motor Company.
• 2:12
  Chris Reichhelm: Prior to that, he was the global head of engineering for Ford.
• 2:16
  Chris Reichhelm: And, uh, as CTO and global head of engineering, Paul was responsible for all things innovation, advanced engineering, research.
• 2:26
  Chris Reichhelm: The number of different transformations that went on under Paul's leadership and guidance was significant.
• 2:33
  Chris Reichhelm: Part of that was as a result of time and the new technology developments of the day.
• 2:39
  Chris Reichhelm: And part of that was down to Paul without question.
• 2:42
  Chris Reichhelm: So, I really want to understand from Paul.
• 2:45
  Chris Reichhelm: While he was there, of course, what made for a really successful startup engagements?
• 2:51
  Chris Reichhelm: When startups were involved in those innovation programs, and that's not to say startups were always involved, but when they were, what was it about those startups that gave them access to those programs?
• 3:04
  Chris Reichhelm: Were, are there any patterns he can pick out?
• 3:06
  Chris Reichhelm: Did the management teams of those companies behave in particular ways?
• 3:10
  Chris Reichhelm: Were there other things?
• 3:11
  Chris Reichhelm: that we can find out that can help individuals like you who are running these companies trying to get access to these domains.
• 3:19
  Chris Reichhelm: Now, Paul has subsequently gone on to be an investor with Fontinalis Partners, a Detroit based early stage VC investing in startups that target mobility and transportation solutions.
• 3:32
  Chris Reichhelm: And he's also sat on a number of big boards, U.
• 3:35
  Chris Reichhelm: S.
• 3:36
  Chris Reichhelm: Steel, ON Semiconductor, to name two.
• 3:39
  Chris Reichhelm: So Paul's views about startups and about the innovation ecosystem have probably changed over time.
• 3:45
  Chris Reichhelm: And I'd love to get his view on what he sees now as some of the critical elements for success within startups.
• 3:52
  Chris Reichhelm: This is going to be a great conversation.
• 3:54
  Chris Reichhelm: I hope you enjoy.
• 3:55
  Chris Reichhelm: Let's get into it.
• 4:00
  Chris Reichhelm: Paul Mascarenas, thank you so much for joining me.
• 4:03
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Hey, thanks for the opportunity to talk, Chris.
• 4:06
  Chris Reichhelm: We are, um, I'm delighted to have you on the show.
• 4:11
  Chris Reichhelm: Uh, you, uh, you know, as, uh, as the chief technical officer of Ford Motor Company.
• 4:17
  Chris Reichhelm: You were responsible for, uh, research, advanced engineering, and a lot of innovation.
• 4:24
  Chris Reichhelm: And as this is a program that, that looks carefully at the innovation journey, or at least tries to, uh, I would love to get your take on what that innovation journey is like for big companies like Ford, and also the role that you've seen startups play within that.
• 4:44
  Chris Reichhelm: Now, I want to start with a, I want to start with a slightly different question and I want to ask you about, you know, in your time there, and again, your best estimate.
• 4:56
  Chris Reichhelm: What, how many startups would try to engage with Ford in a typical year?
• 5:03
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah, that's a huge question to start with.
• 5:05
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And I'm not sure that we ever track the numbers and, you know, my, my data point is somewhat out of date now, but if I think about my time at Ford and also subsequent experience working with other OEMs, larger tier ones, technology companies, and the like, it's probably hundreds of companies, hundreds of.
• 5:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Not necessarily startups, but early stage, um, mid stage companies looking to scale, um, companies that are, that are not typically a part of the normal supply base.
• 5:44
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: They will approach with a multitude of different ideas, different business opportunities.
• 5:50
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: In reality, you know, in terms of serious engagement, it's kind of a handful.
• 5:55
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's a very small number of companies that get through that.
• 5:59
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: initial filter and move into the subsequent proof of concept type of phase.
• 6:05
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So, you know, it's a difficult place to be that intersection between startup early stage and mature OEM tier one supplier.
• 6:16
  Chris Reichhelm: So we're, so even just to get to prototype stage, we're talking about single digit percentages.
• 6:25
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I'm guessing that's the number, you know, I'm guessing it probably is.
• 6:30
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, But, uh, yeah, let's not give up right now, there's a lot of opportunity.
• 6:38
  Chris Reichhelm: Exactly, exactly.
• 6:39
  Chris Reichhelm: We've only just started the program.
• 6:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: We're not going to do that.
• 6:45
  Chris Reichhelm: Exactly.
• 6:46
  Chris Reichhelm: We need a bit more hope.
• 6:47
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, Walk, if you can, Walk, you know, I would love to know more about the innovation process at, um, at large companies, at large industrial companies, and in your case at Ford.
• 7:02
  Chris Reichhelm: Are, you know, could you walk me through what that was like?
• 7:05
  Chris Reichhelm: Obviously while you were there, acknowledging it may have changed.
• 7:09
  Chris Reichhelm: It's been, I think, something like a decade since you've been out, more or less.
• 7:13
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, but while you were there, what was the innovation process like?
• 7:17
  Chris Reichhelm: Where did it start?
• 7:18
  Chris Reichhelm: What was the catalyst typically for an innovation program?
• 7:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 7:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So look, most, um, most of the large OEMs, tier one suppliers for Ford is absolutely typical here.
• 7:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: We'll, we'll have a technology.
• 7:33
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: development process or technology development system.
• 7:38
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And that really is a, a kind of a pre validation of a new technology, a new feature, a new innovation prior to implementation in a production program.
• 7:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, how long it is depends on the maturity of the idea.
• 7:57
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It depends on the type of technology, software, hardware, It depends on the risk.
• 8:05
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, I think about a simple mechanical innovation at one end versus something like a battery chemistry or a battery management technology at the other for electric vehicle.
• 8:17
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So it's really a process which is put in place to do the front end work, which takes either an internal innovation or an external innovation, puts it through a concept readiness type guide.
• 8:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And then matures it over a period of time.
• 8:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And it could be anything from a few weeks to maybe a year or 18 months to the point where it's actually declared to be implementation ready.
• 8:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And what I mean by implementation ready is, is ready to incorporate in a production program in a way that from an engineering perspective is robust and high confidence.
• 8:56
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And of course, from a business perspective, makes sense for the company.
• 8:59
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And for the end customer.
• 9:02
  Chris Reichhelm: What is the, is there a typical starting point for these programs?
• 9:05
  Chris Reichhelm: Does it always come from technology, for example, or could it come from another part of the business or even from outside?
• 9:13
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Well, you know, I'm a kind of a tech guy.
• 9:16
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So the way I think about the world and the business we're talking about here is that ultimately technology underpins just about every innovation, you know, in some way.
• 9:29
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, so it is a technology story.
• 9:32
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, I would say, well, I don't know.
• 9:42
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I mean, we were looking at both internal innovation, um, you know, kind of blue sky research, things that came out of our own labs, um, as much as we were looking at external innovation.
• 9:56
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: We were, and I think even now, looking more to bring some of that consumer and other industrial experience into the automotive industry.
• 10:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And you'll see that's a continuing trend.
• 10:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, so that has really been, um, a great opportunity for the auto industry to work with the, the tech industry, again, whether it's consumer or industrial, and bring that experience into the vehicle.
• 10:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, as we think about the vehicle as more of a platform.
• 10:30
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: as more of an experience for the customer.
• 10:35
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, but therein lies the challenge, you know, and that challenge is those innovations, those technologies have been born in a different environment and bringing them into that automotive environment with the automotive expectations around quality, um, you know, total life cycle, total customer life cycle.
• 11:01
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, Manufacturing, uh, Dealer, Parts, Accessories, Service, you know, there's a whole chain there which is somewhat unique to the auto industry.
• 11:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So again, that intersection is a difficult intersection, but one that can be navigated and one that can be managed, but it requires some patience and it requires a set of disciplined processes.
• 11:28
  Chris Reichhelm: The, um, are there particular programs that you can recall involving startups that you would identify or single out as exemplars, really good examples of how startups can engage with a company like Ford, partner with us?
• 11:54
  Chris Reichhelm: and go through the journey with a positive outcome on the other side.
• 12:01
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah, there's a couple of examples I would think of.
• 12:04
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: One was the internal work that we were doing at Ford.
• 12:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, the other is a kind of a third party or an external example.
• 12:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, if I start with the internal example at Ford, and this goes back, as you said earlier, probably about 10 years now.
• 12:23
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, we're spending a lot of time thinking about the kind of megatrends that we're seeing in the world.
• 12:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So things like population growth, urbanization, um, more awareness and pressure on environmental um, concerns, sustainability, congestion, uh, urbanization, um, you know, the need for a more sustainable mobility solution.
• 12:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And again, you know, building off of my earlier comment, the role that technology could play in solving those societal problems.
• 13:02
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So what that led us to, Chris, was working with a number of tech companies, whether they were larger, um, in fact, huge, uh, established companies like Microsoft, when we bought the the SYNC system into the forward vehicles, uh, or smaller early stage, mid stage companies, or either entrepreneurial individuals, um, here in the US, you know, in the, in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley type companies, in Israel, um, huge number of startups, particularly software based startups in Israel, uh, Europe and Asia.
• 13:41
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And it was great.
• 13:44
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, we were doing a lot of proof of concept work, um, Forming some partnerships, as I mentioned, with Microsoft, a production program with a very mature, established partner, but we really weren't feeling like we were part of that community.
• 14:00
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, we weren't, we were the outsiders coming in, we were the auto industry.
• 14:04
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: We'd fly in, we'd meet, we'd come back to home, so.
• 14:07
  Chris Reichhelm: Of the technology community, of that technology community.
• 14:10
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah, of the tech community you know, and we felt that we really needed to, to be a part of that tech community, to be the best partner that we could, uh, to find the best partners, really to find the best opportunities for us.
• 14:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And what that led us to do was to establish the, uh, innovation centers as we called them.
• 14:33
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So we established an innovation center in Palo Alto, for example, uh, right in the middle of Silicon Valley.
• 14:41
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Started off really small.
• 14:42
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I remember it was, uh, You know, kind of an office space above a bank building, um, downtown Palo Alto, you know, maybe half a dozen people to just start with.
• 14:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, but ultimately grew to, to an innovation center, which, um, you know, I'm not sure how many people are there now, but probably three, four, 500 people in the Palo Alto area.
• 15:06
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, same in Israel, you know, start small and grow the team there in Europe.
• 15:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, so that was our way of, of integrating ourselves with that community.
• 15:19
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, we staffed those centers with a combination of, um.
• 15:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: New hires, people coming into the company, working in the auto industry for the first time.
• 15:29
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: We also saw some experienced, um, people that we brought in from our established facilities.
• 15:35
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So that kind of blended team, which helped advance the technology.
• 15:39
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, great, great initiative and, um, you know, a big commitment for a company that traditionally was you know, quite internally focused in terms of technology development and implementation.
• 15:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So that would be one example.
• 15:55
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Other companies, other larger companies have tried things like, you know, internal venture funds, small innovation teams, skunk work teams, you know, a lot of different ideas to bring that innovation in.
• 16:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: The second example that I was going to give was, um, it actually started while I was at Ford in the last year or so when I was there, um, and continued after it was a program called Techstars.
• 16:19
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, which you may have heard of, the concept, it's, it's an accelerator, um, it's a program which is between, um, I think 90 and 180 days, so sort of three to six month type program, um, with corporate sponsors, um, you know, large companies like Ford, like Magna, Verizon will sponsor these programs.
• 16:44
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Uh, they will select a number of startup companies, um, startup of very early stage, uh, bring them in and put them through a structured program, um, where they're mentored through that time period, given the opportunity to build a business plan, uh, given the opportunity to talk to potential customers, uh, to forge those early partnerships to really mature their thinking.
• 17:13
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And in some cases, even pivot.
• 17:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, they come in with one idea and, you know, building off of the program, they come out with a completely different idea.
• 17:23
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But the idea is that you, you come in at the beginning with, uh, with that sort of vision, uh, that entrepreneurial spirit.
• 17:30
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You come out the other side with a plan and something you can really start to grow and scale a business with.
• 17:36
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, I, I actually, uh, served as a mentor, uh, for two of those programs.
• 17:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And it was a really rewarding experience, you know, it's something I really enjoyed doing.
• 17:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 17:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Just taking my, my big company experience and kind of imparting it in that, you know, much more fast moving, risk, risk oriented, entrepreneurial type startup environment.
• 18:00
  Chris Reichhelm: What were the, the difference in scale and expertise and systems and resources is enormous between these young companies and a company like Ford.
• 18:14
  Chris Reichhelm: The, what are the, in your view, what were the typical, you know, what were the biggest challenges these young companies had when trying to engage with Ford on the programs that you guys are doing?
• 18:30
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Well, I'd even generalize it, I don't think it's just Ford, it's any, any potential large mature company that they're looking to, to partnership.
• 18:40
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, um, you know, I kind of say this a little bit tongue in cheek, but, you know, frustration and lack of patience, uh, or I said the other way, you know, patience is a virtue.
• 18:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, these things typically don't happen very quickly and it can be a very frustrating experience for a, you know, an innovator, an entrepreneur.
• 19:03
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: a visionary, um, to keep running in, in, into roadblocks, you know, in some cases they're not invented here type syndrome.
• 19:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, but as I said earlier, there, there is a way through.
• 19:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So, um, you know, there's this, this whole, I think just understanding the customer and understanding that the customer in a, A large organization is at many levels, um, and ultimately they're serving a customer.
• 19:37
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Uh, you know, and if we think about the automotive industry, um, you know, even there it's bifurcated.
• 19:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: There's two types of customer.
• 19:44
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: There's the The retail customer, you know, the everyday person like ourselves that buys and owns and operates a vehicle, and there's a commercial customer, um, you know, inside of a large customer, inside of a large company, there's the engineering customer, there's the marketing, there's the purchasing, there's the finance.
• 20:06
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You've just got to understand those organizational dynamics and find a way to work it through.
• 20:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, you know, my advice was always you need a strong champion.
• 20:18
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And typically that strong champion is somebody in engineering, you know, for a startup type company.
• 20:25
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and again, there you need to understand that engineering hierarchy.
• 20:30
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It needs to be a champion at a level that can actually move the rest of the organization forward.
• 20:36
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Otherwise you get lost in the noise.
• 20:38
  Chris Reichhelm: Is that where the power lies in engineering, in some of these large industrial organizations?
• 20:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I wouldn't say the power, but at that, at that early point in a technology's development, clearly it's going to be engineering led.
• 20:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, it's, it's unlikely you're going to get a purchasing person, a buyer, put their hand up and say, here's something we must buy, you know, or a finance person say, here's something we must incorporate in our program.
• 21:07
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You might be able to sell it through marketing.
• 21:10
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, if it's a really innovative feature or technology, um, you know, something that offers the opportunity for true competitive differentiation, um, you might also be able to sell it through styling.
• 21:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I've seen a lot of, a lot of good innovation come through the design studio.
• 21:30
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, material technologies, for example.
• 21:33
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, just think how the interior finishes in, in cars have evolved over the years and, you know, the very high quality appliques and materials that are used in seats and interior trim.
• 21:46
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Think of paint finishes, for example.
• 21:48
  Chris Reichhelm: Yes.
• 21:49
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Or wheel technologies.
• 21:50
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, a lot of, a lot of those things which help the stylist differentiate the vehicle are great opportunities.
• 21:58
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And you know, on the risks, uh, um, a lot of those can be implemented with relatively low risk.
• 22:04
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yes.
• 22:05
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: At the other end of the scale, I mentioned earlier.
• 22:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, I think a very high risk technology like battery chemistry or battery management system, power electronics for the electric vehicles, a huge opportunity as the OEMs are looking to improve the margins, to improve the affordability for the customers, to take away the range anxiety, to improve the charging performance, end of life recyclability and so on.
• 22:36
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Huge opportunity, you know, huge problems, challenges to solve.
• 22:42
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But at the same time, the level of technical risk is very high.
• 22:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, you know, I, I, in my, in my current role, I talk to a lot of start ups that, you know, believe they've got the, the battery technology, for example, that's the solution to, to mankind's problems.
• 23:00
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, maybe it is.
• 23:02
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But you're going to have to be patient because it's not going to go in a vehicle in the next three months, you know, in the next six months.
• 23:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's going to go through a very structured, very robust and disciplined, um, technology development, product development, vehicle validation process.
• 23:18
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And I think once you kind of internalize that and you understand not just the way these companies work, but why they work like that and what's at stake, um, you know, every day we read headlines about large OEM recalling, you know, 100, vehicles, you know, and, and other kind of catastrophic type events.
• 23:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That's what's at stake here.
• 23:49
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And the automotive customers, again, whether it's a retail customer or a commercial customer, you know, very unforgiving, very high expectations in terms of what they expect from their vehicle, safety, reliability, quality, affordability, um, you know, end of life, residual value, and rightly so.
• 24:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, after our homes, second most expensive purchase we make, we should have high expectations.
• 24:20
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, and to meet high expectations requires robust processes.
• 24:25
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And that often requires time.
• 24:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and I come back to patience is a virtue.
• 24:31
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 24:32
  Chris Reichhelm: So given that patience is such a virtue here, and obviously this is not the first time we're hearing this, but at what point do you think companies, innovative companies, should start approaching large industrial corporates?
• 24:47
  Chris Reichhelm: How early on in their development?
• 24:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Difficult question.
• 24:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and again, I, I don't think there's a one size fits all answer here.
• 25:04
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Look, you know, one person working out of their garage at home with an idea.
• 25:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That's going to be a hard sell.
• 25:13
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's going to be a really, a really hard sell.
• 25:16
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But I think something which is, you know, reasonably advanced in terms of, well, let's, let's back up a little bit.
• 25:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I mean, the first thing is, you know, what, what, what is.
• 25:32
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: What is the innovation or technology?
• 25:37
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: What does it have in terms of the potential to bring value to the customer that you're talking to?
• 25:45
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and again, that, that customer as an OEM or a tier one supplier is a surrogate for the end customer.
• 25:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So, you know, is it helping solve an unmet need?
• 25:58
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, talk topically now about electric vehicles, as I previously mentioned.
• 26:03
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Does it help improve the affordability?
• 26:05
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Does it help improve the driving range?
• 26:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Does it help improve the charging performance of the vehicle?
• 26:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, here are some, some big questions.
• 26:14
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Or is there a, um, you know, an identified, but as, you know, as, as, um, current state and unmet need, you know, big, big opportunity.
• 26:29
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Or is this white space, you know, is this something that.
• 26:32
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: has never been done before.
• 26:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And we're moving into new charter technology.
• 26:37
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: How big is the opportunity, you know, on a risk reward scale?
• 26:42
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, is it a marginal improvement or is it the opportunity to really be transformational?
• 26:48
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Disruptive, you know, is the word that's often used.
• 26:52
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, in terms of implementation risk, um, is this an optional feature?
• 27:00
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, which has got some, some true upside potential, but hey, if it doesn't work out, you know, we just don't offer it.
• 27:07
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, I think of, um, yeah, sitting here in the U.
• 27:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: S., I think of pickup trucks and I think of tailgate innovation, you know, different, different ways of folding the tailgate and steps that come out and so on.
• 27:22
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Really, really great, innovative, you know, high value add features.
• 27:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But hey, if it doesn't work out, you just put a conventional tailgate, or you just stay with what you've got, versus something which is really absolutely on the critical path to delivering that vehicle to production.
• 27:39
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: If it doesn't work, you haven't got a vehicle.
• 27:41
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, you haven't got a plan B.
• 27:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That's really high stakes.
• 27:45
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That's really high stakes.
• 27:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So what, what these companies are going to find is that the earlier they are in the technology maturation curve, the less likely it is that they're going to find themselves on the critical path to program delivery, despite whatever they think, despite whatever they believe.
• 28:10
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, despite whatever level of confidence they've got in their own technology, people are just not going to commit that without a backup plan being in place.
• 28:19
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And then at some point in the process, there's going to be a switch over or there's going to be an adoption, but you're going to have to accept that you're working, you know, in a backup type scenario.
• 28:30
  Chris Reichhelm: For a lot of companies, they're not, you know, part of their, I think of companies that have got early prototypes, TRL 4, 5, typically.
• 28:42
  Chris Reichhelm: And they're, they're at the end of the, you know, they're still trying to define their solution.
• 28:51
  Chris Reichhelm: And they need to work with industrial partners to help them do that.
• 28:55
  Chris Reichhelm: So they're not completely aware of the entire offering yet, just how good it's going to be and whether it's going to be able to operate as it does in their, in their lab, whether it's going to be able to operate in, uh, in your facilities and for, you know, on the floor in a, in a vehicle.
• 29:16
  Chris Reichhelm: And so there's that crucial development time together with an industrial partner that helps to flesh out the rest of that offering.
• 29:24
  Chris Reichhelm: That helps to further define the.
• 29:26
  Chris Reichhelm: The performance envelope, if you like, the range of performance for a particular platform.
• 29:32
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, how does a company such as this, and there are a lot of companies that sit within that, that sit within that space.
• 29:39
  Chris Reichhelm: How do they, how do they engage with a company like a Ford?
• 29:44
  Chris Reichhelm: Do they just have to accept that they're probably, you know, they may not get there, the odds are stacked against them, or is there a way that they can improve their odds?
• 29:55
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah, so firstly, to come back to the TRL levels that you mentioned, um, you know, if you think about that TRL hierarchy, the kind of nine points on the scale, um, you know, one, one to three is really in the kind of research phase.
• 30:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and if you come back to what I mentioned at the earlier about, earlier about the large OEMs, tier ones having their own internal development system, technology development system.
• 30:25
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That one to three is probably pre concept ready, so you're still in demonstration phase.
• 30:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, if I think of maybe four through six, um, that's right in the heart of that technology development.
• 30:41
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So, you've done enough to prove that you've got a viable concept, but you haven't done enough to prove that you're implementation ready.
• 30:50
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And then 7, 8, 9, you really, you know, early, early 7, you're kind of saying, Hey, I'm implementation ready.
• 31:01
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: By the time you get to 9, you know, it's time to go.
• 31:04
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You press the button and you're really, you're really there.
• 31:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So that's how I think about that.
• 31:10
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Now, how do you improve your odds?
• 31:13
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, a lot of technology comes in through the supply base.
• 31:20
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, whether it's tier one, whether it's tier two, whether it's tier three.
• 31:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Those companies already have access, uh, to the engineering teams, to the purchasing teams, to the marketing teams at the larger OEMs.
• 31:38
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, they're always looking, um, to bring feature and technology to their OEM customers for the benefit of their own business.
• 31:48
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, sometimes they're just more accessible.
• 31:52
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, sometimes they're more open to working with a smaller partner, to working with a startup.
• 31:59
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, another way is to leverage advisors, to leverage investors, um, you know, venture funds, for example.
• 32:13
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You will often have, uh, venture partners or advisors that have got access to the OEMs.
• 32:20
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, it's about, it's about opening the door.
• 32:23
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's about being able to demonstrate in a very compelling and efficient pitch that you've really got something that this OEM wants to bring to their customer.
• 32:37
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And again, you know, where did we start?
• 32:39
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: They're going to see hundreds of these things potentially in a year.
• 32:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, how do you become that handful?
• 32:46
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, that, that very small number.
• 32:49
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: that actually get through that initial pitch and make it to that technology development system or technology development process that precedes getting into a production program.
• 33:00
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's a little bit like going for venture funding.
• 33:02
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 33:02
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, how many pitches does a VC see in a year?
• 33:06
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Hundreds.
• 33:07
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 33:07
  Chris Reichhelm: exactly.
• 33:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: How many, how many cheques does a VC write.
• 33:11
  Chris Reichhelm: Yeah.
• 33:12
  Chris Reichhelm: The odds are the same.
• 33:14
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 33:14
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Odds are the same.
• 33:15
  Chris Reichhelm: And your experience over the last 10 years, I'm guessing, I mean, you know, you've been engaging with a lot, a lot of startups now through Fontinalis Partners and, uh, and perhaps also outside of that.
• 33:27
  Chris Reichhelm: But because of your other engagements and so on, as you, as your perspective shifted at all, in terms of the skills and qualities that are required to have, to have a chance?
• 33:44
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Oh, absolutely.
• 33:45
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, and I, and I think anytime that you see something through, um, a different lens, you know, and in my case, that lens changed significantly as I went from You know, a 30 plus year career with, with one company in one industry to what I've been doing over the last 10 years where I've experienced, you know, a number of different companies in a number of different industries and a number of different companies at different levels of maturity from, you know, single person startups to, to very large tech companies.
• 34:19
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So, you know, that lens, that perspective changes.
• 34:23
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And I think it's helped me appreciate, um, a lot more of those.
• 34:28
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: sort of frustrations that I talked about earlier.
• 34:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You don't see them when you're on the inside of the OEM.
• 34:35
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You don't get to, you don't get to see them.
• 34:38
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But when you're on the outside, not knocking on the door, please let me in.
• 34:42
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, it's a, it's a very different feeling.
• 34:45
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, it's also given me a lot of insight into how the leadership needs to evolve in a startup company.
• 34:59
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, it's, it's, It's very rare that you'll find the, the innovator or the entrepreneur that can take it all the way through to, you know, a large scale, successful company.
• 35:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: We can give some huge examples, you know, Zuckerberg and Meta, for example, you know, he's a one in a myriad.
• 35:23
  Chris Reichhelm: He is.
• 35:23
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: He was able to do it, right.
• 35:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But there are very few, there are very few.
• 35:29
  Chris Reichhelm: Sheryl Sandberg, helped him a lot.
• 35:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And you know, part of his leadership journey, and I'm not going to speak for Mark Zuckerberg, but you know, part of his leadership journey has been recognizing the people that he needed to put around him.
• 35:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, and Sheryl Sandberg was a great example there.
• 35:46
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So you know, as that, that leadership evolves from, hey, the lightbulbs come on, right?
• 35:52
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I'm an innovator.
• 35:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I've got a great idea.
• 35:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I'm entrepreneurial enough to take it into a startup environment.
• 35:59
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, you start to need different skills and you know, it's part of it is recognizing what can I do myself, but the bigger part of it is recognizing what help do I need and bringing good people in and putting them around me.
• 36:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So that maturation of both the individual and the leadership team is really critical to the success of any of these companies.
• 36:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And whether I'm looking from a VC, from, you mentioned Fontinalis, whether I'm looking from a Fontinalis perspective.
• 36:32
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But a potential add to our portfolio, potential investment opportunity for us, or whether I'm looking at it through the customer lens from Ford, you're really evaluating leadership, you know, almost as much as you're evaluating the technology.
• 36:50
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And I said, technology is developed, technology and pivot, um, but are you working with good people and a good people that can really.
• 36:58
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: bring this thing through and be great partners with it.
• 37:02
  Chris Reichhelm: What are the skills or qualities that give you assurance that this is, this is a team you can work with?
• 37:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, I think it's, um, it's a blend of things.
• 37:19
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, you know, when you think about leadership in that early stage environment, um, you know, clearly it starts with some degree of subject matter expertise.
• 37:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: you know, confidence, communication abilities, um, but also there's a level of humility.
• 37:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, there's a level of business acumen in a reality.
• 37:50
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, there's the ability to be able to, as we were just discussing, um, recognize and build a team around you, right?
• 38:02
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's not just about one person, um, you know, it's about initially a small group of vehicles, a small group of people, um, but do all of those people share the same, the same kind of leadership qualities?
• 38:16
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, are they interacting well together, are they complementary in terms of the background and experience that they bring?
• 38:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, do they have prior startup experience, have they scaled a business before?
• 38:28
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Or is this first time through?
• 38:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, do they bring OEM or tier one experience so they know the customer that they're going into, but now coming in from, from the outside.
• 38:40
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So there's a lot of things and there's also that intuition as well.
• 38:44
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, how you connect with people and then at the end of the day, a people business is a people business, right?
• 38:51
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You make that connection, um, but you also know it when you don't see it, you know, and that's probably more difficult to talk about it, but you know it when you don't see it as well.
• 39:03
  Chris Reichhelm: What are the things that jump out, like immediately jump out at you as, as no's when we're not going to go here?
• 39:10
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, arrogance is probably the biggest that I would say.
• 39:16
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, I think it's almost the opposite of that humility, you know, it's, it's, it's the blend of having the subject matter expertise and the confidence in the technology or the innovation.
• 39:35
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You're bringing forward, um, you know, the ar the arrogance would say, you know, how can you be so stupid not to adopt my idea, not in an extreme case.
• 39:50
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 39:51
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: This humility would be, you know, pitching the idea, um, doing it in a compelling, um, you know, an effective, um, way.
• 40:02
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, but letting the idea sell itself, really selling the idea on its merits.
• 40:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: As opposed to trying, trying to bully it through the system, you know, bullying something through will never work.
• 40:16
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It will never work.
• 40:17
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Just, it just comes back again to, you know, understanding the organizational dynamics, understanding you've got to get it through the engineering process.
• 40:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You've got to get it through the purchasing and finance process.
• 40:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You've got to get it out to the customer through the marketing teams.
• 40:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You might have to work with the design studio.
• 40:38
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, there's a, there's a lot of, a lot of people that you're going to have to interact with here and, and being able to build those relationships, being able to build that as a partnership is, is critically important and requires a certain type of personality.
• 40:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's not just a salesman.
• 40:56
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's not just an engineer, you know, it's not just a business pitch.
• 40:59
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's a, it's a blend of all of those things.
• 41:03
  Chris Reichhelm: Out of interest, Paul, how long does it take for an innovation to get through a platform that's considered critical to the performance of the vehicle, from start to finish?
• 41:18
  Chris Reichhelm: Is that a decade?
• 41:21
  Chris Reichhelm: Longer?
• 41:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's an it depends type answer, but um, you know, I would, I would say it is an it depends type answer.
• 41:40
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I mean, I would, I would be looking at a, A technology proof of technology type process or technology development, you know, maybe in that year to 18 month type range.
• 41:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, at that point, you go into a production program, you know, as you're looking at another 24 to 36 months, so you could be on a four, a four year journey, um, realistically four to four and a half years.
• 42:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, now, you know, I can scale that, right?
• 42:13
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I could come, I could come in with something which is a much lower risk, much easier to implement and, you know, maybe you, you just hit, you just hit home runs all the way.
• 42:22
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You could be in production and.
• 42:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: 18 months to two years.
• 42:25
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That would be an extreme.
• 42:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And I've seen that.
• 42:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I've absolutely seen that.
• 42:33
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, um, you know, where I've seen that is when a technology has come in through a tier one supplier, um, you know, there's already been some validation work done, you know, it's probably been taken to the TRL 6 plus, TRL 7 type level.
• 42:58
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, it's ready to go.
• 42:59
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You hit all the buttons and, and you're there.
• 43:02
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and it's, it's optional, you know, it's not on the critical path.
• 43:07
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, why not?
• 43:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Let's do it.
• 43:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, the other extreme, um, you know, you go, you go back to some of the propulsion technologies, um, safety technologies, for example, much longer development times, um, just because the risk is higher.
• 43:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, both in terms of implementation and, and being on the, the critical path to the program.
• 43:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 43:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But, um, you know, I, I'd say, think, think about it generally as a kind of three to four year type journey.
• 43:41
  Chris Reichhelm: But that is on the condition that the innovator has also gone through a similar program of development and partnership with the tier one.
• 43:49
  Chris Reichhelm: Exactly.
• 43:50
  Chris Reichhelm: And the situations.
• 43:52
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah, and, and you know, if you come back to the, um, the lifecycle of a, of a startup company, it's great to be in production and, and get revenue, but what you really need to be able to scale your company, to be able to go and talk to potential investors, to be able to get funding, to, to scale.
• 44:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: What you really need is purchase orders.
• 44:18
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, you need, you need a commitment from an OEM or a tier one supplier, um, that you've got revenue.
• 44:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It might be in the future, but it's, it's a commitment.
• 44:29
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, it might be conditional upon quality of execution, is conditional on delivery, you know, everything is, but, but assuming that you've got that level of technical confidence that you can eventually get this to production.
• 44:43
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You want to be able to see POs because then you can start to build a revenue profile.
• 44:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You can start to build a growth profile over time.
• 44:51
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, and that, and that could come quicker, right?
• 44:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That could be in that sort of 12, 13 month time for the, the other piece of advice as well is don't put all your eggs in one basket.
• 45:03
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, you know, maybe you do, and maybe it works out just fine, but you, you really want to have quite a few irons in the fire.
• 45:11
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah, that's right.
• 45:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Because you're not, to get a home run on every one of them.
• 45:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And that starts to become an issue in itself where you've got to be careful that you don't stretch yourself so thin, you know, you don't dilute your efforts so much that you're just not effective in working with those larger customers.
• 45:32
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And that's a fine balancing act.
• 45:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And again, you know, part of the role of a good leader is to understand the resource constraints and to prioritize and manage accordingly.
• 45:45
  Chris Reichhelm: That, that final integration piece strikes me as one of the most challenging for a new innovation that's been demonstrated to a certain scale, um, TRL 6, I suppose, and, but then the chances of getting to TRL 9 and actually in the marketplace, in production, on models There's a whole level of transformation that needs to happen in terms of, I don't know, maybe there isn't, but in terms of the performance of the platform itself, but then also the systems and the operations behind that, the ways of working.
• 46:22
  Chris Reichhelm: Ford needs to know it can, and any other industrial company needs to know, it can rely on this company to produce at the same size, the same price point, the same level of performance with all the quality and safety and, EHS, um, uh, factors worked into that.
• 46:40
  Chris Reichhelm: Is that, is that your finding too?
• 46:43
  Chris Reichhelm: Do you observe that similar type of challenge?
• 46:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah, no, here's, here's, here's the point of real differentiation between software and hardware.
• 46:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And we mentioned that earlier, you know, if you're selling or developing a software solution, it is to some extent easier because you can sell into an OEM, uh, software stack, a software license.
• 47:12
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And that OEM will then integrate that into their own software releases.
• 47:18
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, and do that integration, validation and the like.
• 47:23
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and that's what you're selling.
• 47:26
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That's what your revenue is based on.
• 47:27
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It's a, it's a license type model.
• 47:31
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Very different if it's a hardware solution, because hardware requires supply chain, it requires manufacturing.
• 47:39
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, there's a whole bunch of stuff.
• 47:42
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: That's where I've mentioned a couple of times the potential of a partnership with an established tier one, tier two, or tier three supplier.
• 47:50
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, really comes into play.
• 47:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, and there's different models there, right?
• 47:58
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: There's contract manufacturing, there's IP licensing, um, there's even, even acquisition, right?
• 48:06
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: At times, you know, it might be better just to get acquired.
• 48:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Just get acquired and integrated and, you know, let, let that be your path, path to market.
• 48:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But, um, that really is a, a very important differentiation, um, at that point in the program.
• 48:24
  Chris Reichhelm: You, you have sat on a number of boards over your career, and, uh, I think you continue to do so now.
• 48:34
  Chris Reichhelm: We've talked about such appointments in the past.
• 48:37
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, When I speak with entrepreneurs about the efficacy of their boards, I tend to get a mixed reaction.
• 48:49
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, I get, uh, quite a little, a lot of frustration that they're not as supportive as they might be.
• 48:57
  Chris Reichhelm: And that, uh, the amount of preparation for board meetings is way too much given the, given the, uh, support they get back or the value they get.
• 49:08
  Chris Reichhelm: Um, uh, have you found that in your experience.
• 49:13
  Chris Reichhelm: Obviously on the other side of the table, on the other side of the table, not as an entrepreneur, but have you observed?
• 49:19
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Speaking as a director, I like to think that we add a lot of value all the time, but it's a great, it's a really a great question.
• 49:28
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, um, you know, I've been fortunate enough to have, you know, as you say, a decade of board experience now, and that's been from joint venture type boards to small startup boards to very large publicly traded companies.
• 49:45
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And, um, yeah, I mean, I can see a lot of the error states, right in terms of management's frustration with the board, preparation time, non value add, and so on and so on.
• 49:56
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But look, let's, let's think about what a board can really bring.
• 50:01
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, You know, if, if it, if it's working in a, in an effective way, as you just described, I think it starts with being deliberate.
• 50:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It starts with being very deliberate in terms of thinking about board composition.
• 50:15
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, what, what kind of background and experience do you need on that board versatility that each individual board member brings in terms of, you know, they bring you sub subject matter expertise.
• 50:29
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um.
• 50:30
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, fiduciary oversight responsibilities.
• 50:34
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Would they be a good coach, a mentor, um, you know, help with the development of the leadership team?
• 50:41
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, you know, at times, investors, um, will look for a board position just to protect their own interests.
• 50:49
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But, you know, within that, for example, a venture capital firm.
• 50:54
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, there'll be a number of different people that could serve on that board.
• 50:57
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It doesn't have to be just one, one individual.
• 51:00
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So talk to your investor about what you're looking for from that person.
• 51:04
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So again, be very deliberate in, in thinking about the makeup of the board and the type of background and experience that will bring the most value to, to you as An entrepreneur, which I recognize what I said earlier, that it will evolve over time.
• 51:22
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: It will change over time.
• 51:24
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Yeah.
• 51:25
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Um, and then the other thing I, you know, if, if you really can't make it with your formal board of directors, um, and, and you feel that that board is there more to fulfill the fiduciary responsibilities of a board rather than help you develop business, then think about an advisory panel, you know, thinking about putting a, putting together a team of of trusted advisors outside of the, the formal board, which again, you can be just as deliberate, just as purposeful in terms of thinking about the background and experience that.
• 52:00
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: will be helpful to you at any given point in time.
• 52:03
  Chris Reichhelm: But it's, it's, it's interesting to get your advice on this because you see it as the responsibility of the entrepreneur or the CEO, in this case, that they must be deliberate in building their board.
• 52:16
  Chris Reichhelm: And I think for, for many, in my experience, it's generally the investors who are pushing the board, uh, and its composition in a particular way.
• 52:28
  Chris Reichhelm: With a founder or a CEO, especially a first time CEO, unsure of, you know, at a high level, aware of the purpose of the board.
• 52:39
  Chris Reichhelm: But beyond that, unsure how to play it.
• 52:44
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Well, maybe Chris, you know, that, that's, and I think you're right.
• 52:47
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And then what you said, but my, maybe that's one of those kind of leadership differentiators.
• 52:53
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You know, one of the things that helps differentiate a successful entrepreneur from, you know, a frustrated or less successful, um, you know, it's, it's, it's something that experience brings, right?
• 53:09
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: You have to see it, you have to experience it, you have to understand that at the end.
• 53:14
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And it depends as well.
• 53:16
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: I mean, is the, is the entrepreneur also the chair, you know, in control of the board or, you know, are they just a minority party?
• 53:23
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: But I think Having that strength of leadership to be able to talk to the chair or the lead director or the lead investor and say, look, this is what I need from the board.
• 53:36
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: This is what I expect from the board to help me scale and deliver this business is a very important conversation to be had.
• 53:45
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: And it's a skill that that entrepreneur needs to, to develop.
• 53:51
  Chris Reichhelm: Paul, I have thoroughly enjoyed our hour together.
• 53:56
  Chris Reichhelm: Now, uh, I could keep going, but uh, we're pushed for time, so I want to thank you so much for joining me today.
• 54:04
  Chris Reichhelm: I always enjoy our conversations.
• 54:05
  Chris Reichhelm: By the way, I've really enjoyed it.
• 54:07
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Terrific.
• 54:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: So thank you.
• 54:08
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Really enjoyed it too.
• 54:10
  Paul Mascarenas OBE: Thanks for the opportunity.
• 54:12
  Chris Reichhelm: You've been listening to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast, brought to you by Deep Tech Leaders.
• 54:17
  Chris Reichhelm: This podcast has been produced by Beauxhaus.
• 54:20
  Chris Reichhelm: You can find out more about us on LinkedIn, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.