Latest / Everyday Ancestral with James Barry / Is Plant Medicine Just Drugs in Disguise? A Grounded Conversation on Healing and Ancestral Truth | Sitaramaya Sita

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Is Plant Medicine Just Drugs in Disguise? A Grounded Conversation on Healing and Ancestral Truth | Sitaramaya Sita · Everyday Ancestral with James Barry

• 0:00
  Welcome back to every day ancestral podcast where we bring ancient wisdom for a modern world
• 0:06
  without the fluff. I'm your host James Barry. You may have heard me talk about in previous episodes
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  my experience with plant medicine, extremely profound life changing experiences,
• 0:17
  ones that helps to make my relationships with my wife with my kids better and I'm so grateful
• 0:24
  for those. But since then I've been really wanting to sit down and just kind of dig a little deeper
• 0:28
  into what plant medicine is to maybe support you all and better understanding it and maybe even
• 0:36
  finding curiosity to explore yourself should you feel cold. That's why I'm so excited. Our next
• 0:42
  guest is a deeply rooted guide in the world of an integrative ancestral healing. Sita Ramaya
• 0:49
  Sita is a trauma-informed spiritual practitioner weaving together decades of work in somatic healing,
• 0:57
  plant medicine and ancestral wisdom and you know honestly some of this work is probably the most
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  ancestral medicinal work you can find. It's rooted in nature. So please enjoy my next guest Sita Ramaya
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  Sita and let us know what you think. Sita it has been a long time since we've seen each other. I
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  want to say almost like 12 years. I did ceremony with you when my daughter was disborn. She's now
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  13. What's even more amazing is that I think we first met 10 years before that. Very interesting
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  long times fans. Talk about kind of the law of attraction because when I when we first met the
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  catalyst for our conversation was that I had read that book that you probably know but I'm skipping
• 1:50
  on the full name but it has to do with the serpent and the DNA. That's exactly by Jeremy Narby.
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  I'm skipping on the name too but it was like the first book out there that really talked about his
• 2:02
  experience in the jungle with the Ashaninka. Yeah and that was my first exposure to plant medicine.
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  It was interesting so there was two male and a female and that experience was profound. I was
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  not able to do the two days. I was only able to do one but absolutely profound. Then I haven't
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  touched this stuff. I haven't done any other ceremony since and recently got in with a functional
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  doctor here who's been really doing deep dives into plant medicine and for the last few years
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  and he has brought me into some of his ceremonies and have had newer profound experiences.
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  That's why I reached out to you because I was like I really want to better understand
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  this is such ancestral practice. It's such ancestral medicine and I would love to hear from your
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  perspective as someone who's been working with it for so many years. How long have you been working
• 2:58
  with it? 98. That's almost 30 years. I mean you're that's incredible. Let's start with the history
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  of plant medicine. Can you share a bit about how it's shown up historically and just in general how
• 3:13
  it used to be used? I am not an authority. Let me just say this. I only know what I know and there
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  is so many multiple lineages plant medicine practices that let's just say for the purposes of this
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  conversation that's bad and the Amazon in South America and so many different tribes and within
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  those tribes, families, and practices. What I think everybody can agree on is that
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  ayahuasca, the vine, the ayahuasca vine, the bannisteriopsis capi has been used even before the
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  chakruna, the psychotria came online and they were put together and the use that I am familiar with
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  and the stories and the transmissions that I've received are based on my frame of reference
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  having studied with the Shippewa people which are an indigenous group of the Peruvian Amazon.
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  So I just want to clarify that. You know, it's not the Iwanawa, the Hunikun in Brazil and what I find
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  fascinating is that all of these different groups are using working with,
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  communing with in dialogue with learning from ayahuasca whether they call it yahe or any other name.
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  So that to me speaks to the sentience or the presence of ayahuasca in a specific bioregion on the
• 4:47
  planet. What I know is that in many of the Shippewa lineages, while people in the communities
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  drank ayahuasca, the primary purpose was for the onaia, which is like you would think of as a shaman,
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  but the shaman is a bit of a colonialist imposition of naming the onaia, who is like the doctor,
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  the coordinator, the steward, the medicine and the realms of the medicine.
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  So to drink the medicine, the uni, the ayahuasca, to have the vision to be able to help the patient,
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  to see, to be able to see what has to happen here and to be able to work with the various
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  energy, spiritual that manifests as an illness or an imbalance. And the starting point
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  always is in the non-physical, in the unseen to the eye in the day-to-day, let's say waking like.
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  And then there is a prescription, if you will, for a bath or a vapor or a depe, or a lifestyle change,
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  we would say now, for that person to feel better in whatever way that they are needing to feel better.
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  And that transmission comes from the plant?
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  Well, it's a combination of the practitioner. I'm going to use the word practitioner because it's
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  just less specific, but applies to people who practice with this plant medicine in this specific
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  lineage in my knowledge base. So the practitioner drinks the medicine, however,
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  what comes through in terms of the capacity is not just based on, you know, drinking the medicine
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  in that moment, but the years of study and learning and working with a multitude of other plants
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  that when we die at them, we receive the medicine of those plants, which then come through in the
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  capacity to host that energy during the experience, if that makes sense. The anaya drinks the medicine,
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  looks, and it's in real time having the visionary experience that also the helpers of all of the
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  plants and access points that are in their, let's say, medicine chest based on their experience with
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  them. From your kind of knowledge, indeed, dive into ayahuasca, would you say that it's probably one
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  of the oldest forms of kind of healthcare or medicine? You know, we have to define old, and because
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  in this sense we're talking about the Amazon, there's like very few archaeological remnants or
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  records, and the, should people can evil language and the Pinot and languages across the Amazon
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  basin, we're not written languages. These were oral histories. So the archaeological record,
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  if we're looking for verification, is not there. However, if we talk to the elders and the teachers,
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  it's always been part, for example, of the Shippewa culture, like ayahuasca isn't separate from
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  the culture, it's infused, and in fact, it is said and has been said that if you want to learn about
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  ayahuasca, the Shippewa are the ones to go to, like they are like the masters of this in that region.
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  You know, it's really sexy to say, oh, it's one of the oldest medicines ever, and maybe that's true,
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  and maybe it isn't. And certainly, there are various other archaeological records having to do
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  with other platinum medicine practices and other places in the world across the Himalayan region,
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  the Zen Persia and Greece and so forth, that have better archaeological records because, you know,
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  they were writing and they were buildings that were preserved. So I don't know. I suspect,
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  and based on my sense, it is, but ayahuasca isn't a standalone. Ayahuasca is really profound,
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  but we can't separate ayahuasca from all of the other master plants because ayahuasca
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  provides access to the other plants that, you know, are a part of this rich pharmacopia of the
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  Amazon. And so these other plants are teachers, the plant teachers, the master plants that, you know,
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  get very refined in their service to us humans who go astray. What's your definition of plant
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  medicine? My definition of plant medicine is medicine from plants that provide healing and
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  remedy. So it's not limited to fungi that have healing properties, you know, which are not
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  throughout plants anyway, you know, these plants that are behind me, you know, are they plant
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  medicine? Well, in a way, like, I don't know, it's medicine because they're providing oxygen
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  for the air that I breathe, which I wouldn't be able to live without. So I have an expansive view
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  of what plant medicine is. I was at the Dubai airport a couple of years ago and they had these
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  atrium with like all these amazing plants inside and I sat and I'm like, wow, you know,
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  this feels really good, you know, I'm in this long transit across the world and I felt like
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  this healing in this calm, you know, just from the richness of this incredible atrium
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  of plants in the middle of an airport. So that's plant medicine. In the common parlance of
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  social media and all of this, I think plant medicine is being used to refer to
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  entheogens, like things that are a way to know ourselves or that are expansive or transformative
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  or that alter consciousness and my definition is not limited to that and primarily because
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  I have had communications and experiences with plants that people would not call entheogenic
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  and they don't have the requisite alkaloids. However, when we come together with the plants and we
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  do our work of being open to this non-linguistic interspecies communication, there's so much medicine
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  that is beyond just this gross effect of drinking ayahuasca or ingesting psilocybin or watching
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  I've MEO. Yeah, and the five MEO, like even that, right? Like, you know, referring to a synthetic
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  compound, but I feel like everything if it's a product of our intelligence, it's not
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  not natural, but we would not necessarily classify that as a plant medicine. Things like MDMA
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  or five MEO or ketamine, it doesn't diminish their potential for healing given that, you know,
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  they are taken or administered in right relationship and right circumstances in the safe setting,
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  but they would not necessarily be plant medicines. But yet, I think a lot of people are clumping it
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  all together, at least to your point, how they talk about it on social media. And it makes me wonder
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  because I had experienced in college a couple of minor three things like acid and psilocybin,
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  but that experience was very different than what I experienced with ayahuasca, and it was also
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  very different from what I've experienced recently with this functional doctor, and it makes me wonder,
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  is it just the vehicle, meaning what you're taking, or is it more so the environment you're
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  taking under, is there a ritual to it, or are there people guiding you, is there intention,
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  or do you think it's just a mixture of the two? Well, I think it's all of that. It's like saying,
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  you know, as far as plant medicine, that Jack and Jill are the same person. Ayahuasca is Ayahuasca,
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  and Ayahuasca presents itself in many different ways. You know, there's the Yahweh tradition out of
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  Colombia, and then there are traditions in various tribal settings, and then there are emergent
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  traditions where people are working with it in, let's say, more contemporary ways that are
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  less traditional. I think that our emotional set point, our physical set point, or psychological
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  set point, or spiritual set point, the setting in which the experience happens, and the amount we
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  take are all components. There is an aspect to ceremonial work and ritual work that is a container
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  set in a specific way, specifically for healing. That plays into it too. What got you on this path,
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  because I know it was reading that book that introduced me to it, but what brought you down this
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  path? So I had a yoga teacher in early to mid-90s, and I was sober from drugs and alcohol for
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  11 years, and they mentioned Ayahuasca to me, and I was shocked. I'm like, oh, that's just an excuse
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  to use drugs, and then when I contemplated it, and I observed the yoga teachers way of being
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  in the world, and what they did for their students, and working in hospice, and working with
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  AIDS patients, and this amazing work, I'm like, I don't know, but they don't seem like they're
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  use drugs like the way that I did anyway. I sat with it for about a year, and then I said,
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  I actually am interested in this, and then it was another year before an opportunity presented
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  itself, and I was on a yoga retreat on Maui, and there was an opportunity, it wasn't connected
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  with the retreat, but one thing led to another, and I had my first experience, and I really believe
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  that in that moment, I even knew it in that moment, there was like my life before Ayahuasca,
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  and then my life after. I've heard that from many people. It really was, and I felt very strongly
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  called and very strongly drawn, and then two years later, I traveled to the Brazilian Amazon,
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  which started my journey, and I had read the cosmic serpent, that it was there a year after that,
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  that I met Jeremy Norvey, and we became friends, and then he was actually a conduit for my journey,
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  then into Peru, into some of the far reaches of the jungle, first staying with the Ashenika Shaman,
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  that was part of the group in that book of the cosmic serpentant, so that was a couple of years
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  before I then met and started studying and learning from the people.
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  It's fascinating, because more and more, you're hearing about Ayahuasca being a resource for
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  addiction, and yet it's interesting, because I think what you're speaking to is that I had been
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  an addict, I was sober, and I was afraid to do something that was perceived as maybe being
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  mind-altering or drug-like, so it's almost like we build these labels, and then there's lots of,
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  while they're keeping us sort of safe, there's also a lot of fear around them, right?
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  Was it just sitting with it that kind of made you feel safe to delve into it, or in general,
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  when you're working with people that are dealing with addiction to, let's just say alcohol,
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  or these modern addictions, what are you finding is helping people to take the leap, and to see
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  this is not the same as the thing that they feel like they're addicted to.
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  Well, I'll speak for myself to answer the first part of your question. The whole evolution,
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  you know, I felt like in a way we would say, like as a, you know, embudism, like it was my,
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  you know, karma, to meet this person and for these, you know, auspicious circumstances,
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  to present themselves, because during that year, what I realized was the question was,
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  not, oh, that's just an excuse to use drugs, would it be an excuse to use drugs for me?
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  Because there was no, like, internet and Google, or any of these things, even when I went to the
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  Amazon, like, there was no Google, there was no anything, and this was, okay, here I go. So,
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  in answering that question, in the beginning, it was like, no, because I don't want to use,
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  I don't want to drink, but I do want to improve the quality of my life, and I do know that while
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  I might be sober, there are things that have not yet healed, and there are things that I have not
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  yet released, and I knew that, and yoga was certainly helping, and some of my other spiritual practices
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  were helping, and it felt more and more called and drawn, and like, wow, okay, I let them know,
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  and then it was a year, like, so it also helped me to cultivate patience and not
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  perseverate on the thing, like, okay, now this thing's going to fix me, like, I'm available,
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  if and when, was the beginning of a long journey, a practice of cultivating patience, which was
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  not in my wheelhouse prior to that, and then now, I think that we're so blessed, because there's
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  so many communities of psychedelics and recovery, and there are meetings where people who are
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  either exploring and theogenic substances or taking them, but they're also in recovery,
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  and are breaking free from more regimented or restricted 12-step programs that say, oh,
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  you know, anything that's mind-altering is not being sobered, and then there are pharmaceuticals
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  that are okay, but the agents aren't, and so I think that when somebody feels called or drawn
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  or hears about it, at that point, I hope for them that they find their way to somebody who is going
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  to talk to them and thoroughly do an intake or an assessment to make sure, because I have found
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  that there are people who open the door to psychedelics, and then they're consistently chasing,
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  like, the big event, the high dose, and doing 20 grams of mushrooms, and not a problem, but,
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  you know, what it can do, it can also feed patterns where people who are addicted to the cortisol
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  or the adrenaline, and also perhaps a little less self-aware of their own desire to have a certain
• 20:56
  status or achieving, so there's not one size fits all, and while I believe psychedelics, which
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  promote neuroplasticity, and specifically ayahuasca, those are really good job at that, helps to get
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  us out of the default mode network, and gets all the regions of our brain working at the same time,
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  much like meditation can, that it's not for everybody, it's not the answer for everybody, and many
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  people, let's just say who, you know, have been addicted or alcoholic, may have physical
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  considerations on board as a result of the abuse of their body, so, as I said at my hope,
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  is that they find their way to somebody if they're drawn, who can guide them in a way that is
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  helpful and reasonable, and, you know, can assist them in providing information so that they can make
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  an informed choice about whether or not to proceed with consciousness altering experiences.
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  Yeah, I think that's well said that there's still, despite the popularity and the
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  trendiness of some of these things right now, that there's still no magic bullet or magic pill
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  that's going to work for everyone, everybody, it is fascinating though, because when I had my
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  experience with you, that was the first time I really got it, I was like, oh, this is plant medicine,
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  like this is medicine, and it was so clearly not a drug, at least the way that I had grown up,
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  you know, understanding what drugs were, keep in mind that, you know, we grew up with
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  where of the age where, you know, Nancy Reagan was, you know, saying just say no, you know,
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  so drugs were very like the idea of what a drug is and what it's labeled as, it kind of permeated
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  our childhood, you know, of anyone that's a certain age. I went in kind of thinking, well,
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  okay, you can call it vegan or plant-based, it's still you're not eating animal, you know,
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  I mean, like, I kind of went in going, sure, it's plant medicine, yeah, just like, you know, but when
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  I experienced it, I was like, oh, no, no, no, this is medicine. It was such a distinct
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  difference, and so I would love to kind of help people understand what is ayahuasca, because you're
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  talking about, let's go back to that idea that there's these other plants that you mix with it,
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  when you're creating ceremony, can you kind of explore what embodies it? Yeah, so we don't
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  mix other plants with ayahuasca. What happens is we diet with other plants outside the ceremony
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  or space for extended periods of time, a month, three months, six months, a year to come to understand
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  the medicine of those plants, and when we do, we receive the songs and the connection,
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  then in ceremony, the practitioner opens themselves to receive whatever
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  needs to come through to assist them to be of service. So if they have dieted
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  to Chihuahua or Ohay or some of these other plants, those plants might come through
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  while the practitioner is in the experience of ayahuasca to be of service, because let's just
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  say that person is healing from drug addiction or alcoholism, and Ohay is like this
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  really powerful deep cleanser of any residual, any remnants of alcoholism, whether it's physically
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  spiritually, emotionally, energetically, or drugs, and parasitic energies and parasites. So
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  that comes through in the realm of the medicine. Ayahuasca is just two plants, the Ayahuasca vine
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  and Chakruna. Now in some regions where Chakruna is not native, it would be Chalikanga, which is
• 24:59
  a different admixture plant, but those two plants together are Ayahuasca, and it's really
• 25:06
  fascinating because Ayahuasca contains harming, harming, and tetrahydraharming, which are beta-carbonine
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  alkaloids, that act as a temporary and reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase A activity,
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  and is a natural antidepressant. And pharmacologically, oxidase inhibitors were the first
• 25:27
  pharmaceutical antidepressant. And if we were to prepare a tea with Chakruna, with the psychotriveritas
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  and drink it, and it's rich with the alkaloid of NN-dimethylchryptamine or DMT, the person would
• 25:41
  not deal in effect because our bodies are so brilliant, the oxidase activity would neutralize
• 25:48
  it and metabolize it, saying, oh, wait, this is foreign, but because that activity is temporarily
• 25:54
  suspended, the DMT crosses the blood vein barrier and produces what an alopathic medicine is
• 26:02
  referred to as a psychotropic or a psychoactive effect. And in this shamanic spiritual practices,
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  it's much more than that because now we're open to the teaching of this plant, and it's like the
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  compass primed to help us expand and have potentially a visionary experience, which may include
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  visuals, or it may be an experience like you had, James, of, I just knew. If that's an insight,
• 26:34
  then that's a vision. And because there are a lot of, you know, physiological, pharmacological
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  things going on, which intuitively, indigenous people without that language knew. They just
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  knew. It's nice that we have science, and we have assessments, and starting in the late 80s,
• 26:54
  you know, these studies started happening. So it's great to know that, but there's something that
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  can't be qualified or quantified through science, which is like, how is it that, for example, myself
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  growing up on the streets of Philadelphia, you know, in the inner city, like makes her way to the
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  jungle. Like, how does that happen? So there's something that is, you know, ancestral in that,
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  you know, it could be through many lifetimes or, you know, many manifestations of this interdependent
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  nature of our existence. And then there is our capacity to surrender to having an interspecies
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  communication, if you will, like receiving messages or maybe even expanding enough to have an
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  experience of recognizing the plants as having sentence and being helpers and being teachers and
• 28:00
  being healers themselves and wanting to help us. We need a lot of help. Human beings need a lot of
• 28:07
  help. And so it's really quite profound. I think I may have gotten off track to your questions,
• 28:12
  so remind me if I did. Let me first walk through, and you can of course support it, but from my
• 28:19
  understanding and from what I've experienced, is typically you're told to fast from animal-based
• 28:27
  products prior to ceremony, to not eat too much, to keep it pretty light, then the ceremony that
• 28:36
  I did with you, it was in the evening, and then we sat. I don't even remember how many people,
• 28:42
  but it's not a huge group, it's intimate. And then a lot of people purge, not everyone, but a lot
• 28:47
  of people then purge. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what that purging represents,
• 28:52
  but then also you then do the ceremony, and it's however long, but then afterwards you're still
• 28:59
  kind of told to not immediately go into eating too much food, and I think we had oatmeal, for
• 29:05
  example. We kept it very light, and we did it so long ago, this was an issue, but I know nowadays,
• 29:11
  it's also like you're warned to kind of like not get too heavy into electronics, kind of give
• 29:17
  some space between what you experience in modern life. So the dea te in preparation for drinking
• 29:24
  ayahuasca in the lineage in which I've learned is no salt sugar, spices, dairy, oil,
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  caffeine, red meat, poor recreational substances, marijuana, alcohol, pornography, sex, and masturbation.
• 29:42
  So it's not complete abstinence from animal products, you know, you could conceivably eat chicken,
• 29:47
  or you could eat a light white fish, which unfortunately is not really available in North America
• 29:56
  that hasn't been farmed, but like just as a counter to this, deep in the jungle over the course of,
• 30:02
  you know, retreat, it might be like plantains and bokeh chito, which is like this little
• 30:08
  tiny fish with a million bones, and in order to eat it, it's very meditative. So you force
• 30:14
  you to go slow and be mindful. Yes, exactly. There is another component to the diet because there are
• 30:19
  other plants that are incredible plant medicines that they're not a fit with ayahuasca.
• 30:26
  It's not like a hard and fast thing that interferes not just physiologically, but potentially
• 30:31
  physiologically, but energetically, and they're just not a good fit. It's like if you were to put
• 30:37
  on an outfit and you're like, wow, that just doesn't go. So the idea is that we're preparing,
• 30:42
  from my perspective, the dieta is not an add-on. Like, oh, I have to do this because I'm going to go
• 30:50
  drink ayahuasca. The dieta is an opportunity to connect with my intentions. So like, why am I going
• 30:59
  to be doing to this ceremony? Oh, because I want to work some more on my patients. I want to
• 31:06
  cultivate patients, or I'm going to release my attachments. So maybe I otherwise drink coffee,
• 31:13
  and then I'm like, oh, I'm going to have to, oh, I'm not having coffee. I'm not having coffee
• 31:18
  because I want to cultivate patients. If fourth is you to face whatever it is you're trying to
• 31:24
  work? I mean, it doesn't force you because some people could just like white knuckle it and not have
• 31:27
  coffee and not have sugar and not have the things, but as an offering, as a spiritual practice,
• 31:33
  oh, I'm not, I'm abstaining from this because I am committed to this practice of releasing my
• 31:40
  attachments, of cultivating patients, of letting go of jealousy or letting go of the things that
• 31:48
  keep me from really being of, you know, highest service to myself and others. The dieta is a time
• 31:57
  of contemplation. And certainly if there are things that are here with that like electronics and
• 32:04
  too much engagement with the world, then it's a nice time to just like, let me hang back. The other
• 32:12
  thing is afterwards, after drinking ayahuasca, it's really nice not to dive too quickly back into
• 32:20
  our normal eating habits because the heaviness can like cut the experience. And we might really like
• 32:25
  have this like ongoing profound experience for a few days or longer afterwards. And most people
• 32:32
  will notice the minute they start eating the spice or they stop and have the hamburger that
• 32:38
  it can create a heaviness. And then it brings us down, which the after come back down, right,
• 32:43
  we're living in the world, we own our feet on the ground, that to create a container for everything
• 32:50
  that potentially could emerge that's positive to have a container and a space in which to emerge.
• 32:58
  Because not everything happens in the ceremony, not everything happens the morning after,
• 33:03
  that like, wow, we start to contemplate. Ha, now I remember that. What is the message there for
• 33:10
  me? What is the insight? Let me contemplate on that. But the minute we're back to doing all the
• 33:14
  things, we were very forgetful. And why do you think the plant induces the purging? Because I know
• 33:21
  it's not for everyone, but it definitely happens more often than not. So the purgative effect is
• 33:27
  primarily due to the vine, which is a really powerful antioxidant. It can have up to hundreds
• 33:35
  or even a thousand times the antioxidants as say green tea. And it is a really powerful
• 33:42
  detoxifier. So that detoxification of the vine. And even when people purge physiologically,
• 33:51
  whether it's through vomiting or through profused bowel movements or shaking or sweating,
• 33:57
  many people experience the purge as a release of that which no longer serves them or habituated
• 34:04
  thought patterns or ways of viewing themselves or their relationships or their biographical
• 34:12
  information. So many people, you know, who purge, they feel really great afterwards. It's like, wow,
• 34:18
  you know, like, that really needed to come out. And this idea of cleaning and clearing is really
• 34:23
  big in the people lineage. And in fact, in the Icaros and in the songs, you know, there's so many
• 34:30
  variations on cleaning, cleaning, cleaning, cleaning, washing, cleaning, washing, and cleaning
• 34:35
  in the songs. Because so many of us have so many things that we're carrying and things that we don't
• 34:41
  realize are obscuring our true nature, which is like the light, the light that's in us, it gets
• 34:48
  covered over. And so, you know, we want to clean that. And we also want to clean our organs and
• 34:54
  our blood and our nervous system and our bones and all these things too. So this is what I've been
• 35:02
  thinking a lot about lately. And I feel like we've been talking about that book, The Cosmic
• 35:08
  Serpent, that that book really highlighted because if I remember correctly, he was going to the
• 35:14
  rainforest to do one thing, but then through his conversations with the shamans and the different
• 35:19
  tribes, they had an understanding of medicine and science, the DNA, they had all this understanding,
• 35:26
  they just had different names for it, but they had a deeper understanding of these concepts
• 35:31
  than even non-tribal people did. Their explanation for it was the plants told us. It's in the plants.
• 35:38
  Yes. That has really kind of like made me wonder, in my exploration of ancestral living and how we
• 35:47
  merge it, you know, how do we get back in touch with all this innate knowledge we do have is if
• 35:52
  the plants have all that knowledge, don't we as well? Isn't it all stored in our self? Isn't it
• 36:00
  part of when we breathe the air? Isn't it part of the kind of ancestral knowledge that continues
• 36:06
  to get passed down cellularly biologically? The plant has that knowledge and so do we technically,
• 36:15
  in your experience, is that true? And then how do we get closer to our own innate knowledge of
• 36:21
  for example, what we need to eat? How we need to be? How do we need to coexist in this life so that
• 36:26
  we're not just full of anxieties and like depression and all these things that are really
• 36:32
  overtaking our lives these days? Well, first up, you know, just to clarify, in the cosmic serpent,
• 36:38
  Jeremy was with the asheninka, like not different tribal people, but with the asheninka, specifically.
• 36:45
  And I say that because I don't want to us, you know, as folks from the global north just clump
• 36:53
  all indigenous people together because even within, you know, an asheninka community,
• 36:58
  there are individual people there like having individual experiences in their own individual
• 37:03
  and collective heritage. And I believe that yes, if the plants have this knowledge that has been
• 37:13
  passed on from what we know on this planet in this iteration from like that first single self
• 37:19
  organism till now, the same is true for us. I agree that if we are able to get out of the thinking
• 37:28
  mind of we're able to get out of this linear based approach to our inclination in a body,
• 37:37
  then that's a first step. It could be something as simple as you look at something or you smell
• 37:43
  something and you're like, oh, you know what to know? How do you know what to know? There's something
• 37:47
  in you telling you that it's a no. So there are various practices and, you know, I work with people
• 37:53
  individually and in groups in many different ways, helping us to learn the language of our body,
• 38:02
  which is the carrier of our consciousness. And therefore, the carrier of the wisdom of
• 38:11
  everything that we have been and our ancestors have been and are to be, there are things that we're
• 38:20
  already doing that we don't realize, you know, like had a gut feeling about it. Like there's real
• 38:25
  wisdom in that. Or I just, you know, it was just a no. And then we find ourselves going back. So
• 38:32
  I think that it's important to be reminded that the foundational tools are already on board,
• 38:41
  but we forget it. Or we recognize it and we do it anyway because our mind comes in and says,
• 38:47
  no, you should because then you're going to look weird if you don't and blah, blah, blah, blah,
• 38:52
  fighting the mind, being open and willing to do something that's out of the ordinary for ourselves
• 39:01
  is the first step. My hope is that we can inspire people to do something out of the ordinary for
• 39:10
  themselves, whatever it might be, to be able to reconnect with who they truly are and tap in to
• 39:16
  this lineage of their own ancestral knowledge and of our collective ancestral knowledge. And also
• 39:25
  to not feel separated because when we're separated from the trees and the plants and the soil and
• 39:31
  the sun and the stars and the wind and the rain, then, you know, when we perceive ourselves
• 39:37
  as separated, we are not, but then we have this perception that we're trying to live in isolation
• 39:42
  when we are designed to live and we are living interdependently, but then we stop paying attention
• 39:49
  to this interdependence and we think I'm a solo warrior trying to get through my life.
• 39:57
  You know, from my view, one of the reasons why we're here and our Incarnated is to recognize
• 40:03
  that we're not separate. Do you think ayahuasca is a tool towards supporting that because that
• 40:10
  that's been my experience as of late is really seeing how connected we are through my experiences.
• 40:17
  I do and I do because historically, traditionally, in the people who are companions to
• 40:27
  stewards of work with ayahuasca, it's done in community. It is not done in isolation. I mean,
• 40:35
  granted if you're in a study or you're in a diata or in the jungle for an extended period,
• 40:41
  time maybe you drink on your own as part of the learning process, but it is a communal and vet
• 40:47
  and I think there's a reason for that because the idea is that we can't be healed unless
• 40:54
  we start with ourselves, but that is the pathway for our collective healing and our collective
• 41:00
  emergence and awareness of our interdependence and, you know, in this, you know, common era,
• 41:09
  you know, in the last couple hundred years, we've just become more and more isolated.
• 41:15
  And we co-created that too. We're in a time of isolation and we don't know how long that's
• 41:23
  going to last, but like any other epoch or era, there are those who say, wait a minute, like
• 41:28
  this might be what's going on for the majority, but I'm aware. I'm aware and once we're aware,
• 41:35
  we can do what we can do and then we can hold an intention to help others to not force anybody
• 41:41
  to do anything, but it shows up. I believe like, how do I speak with my neighbor? How do I interact
• 41:51
  with someone who's providing me a service? How do I interact with my client or my customer?
• 41:56
  How do I show up with my coworkers? How am I in my family with my children, with my parents,
• 42:03
  and with my extended relatives? Like, that's where it happens. And how do I do my best to, you know,
• 42:12
  live in a way that recognizes the interdependence of the natural world and the waterways and the
• 42:19
  mountains and the plants, all of the plants, not just the ayahuasca plants, but all of them and the
• 42:24
  birds and the fishes and the animals and the insects and all of the elements of this guy in
• 42:31
  ecosphere that we're living on right now. It's fascinating to me in terms of that connecting
• 42:38
  point. One of the things that I believe is a sign of like the interconnectedness of ayahuasca
• 42:47
  and the experience that people have with ayahuasca is something that I experienced through the
• 42:53
  ceremony I did with you, which is I saw these very specific kind of matrix-y, very clear images
• 43:02
  that were geometric. And then after the experience, I'm walking through the building that we were
• 43:10
  near. And I see all these pictures on the wall that I did not see before I went in. And I was like,
• 43:16
  wait a second, I saw that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So these lines and shapes and configurations are
• 43:23
  called kuna. And so they, they're the visual representations of energy and of history and of
• 43:29
  stories. It is a way of communicating non-linguistically when we look at the artistic representations
• 43:38
  of the visionary experience. And one of the articles I wrote like touches on this, if you look
• 43:45
  me up and find it, but it's really a fascinating phenomenon. They can't put words to their
• 43:51
  experience, but then they look at and they're like, wait, that was it. That was it. So to me,
• 43:57
  that's evidence of this unique cosmology of ayahuasca. Because now it's like, wait a minute,
• 44:06
  we have a shared vision. What is that? And that is a testament to our interconnectedness and our
• 44:14
  interconnectedness beyond what we can see, but our interconnectedness in the unseen. Yeah, I have
• 44:20
  to imagine that's true. I wonder how you'll you'll answer this. I've had a multitude of experiences
• 44:29
  where when I'm doing them and this even happened when I did ceremony with you is something is
• 44:36
  talking to me and it's not me, but it's through me. And more recently, it feels like source.
• 44:43
  If I were coming to you and we were having a one-on-one conversation and I was sharing,
• 44:47
  hey, this is what I'm experiencing. How would you interpret that connection or is it more just,
• 44:53
  well, however I see it is what it is? Well, whoever you see it is what it is, but however you see it
• 45:00
  is, what has meaning for you. And we are nothing but source. And in the Buddhist tradition,
• 45:09
  we would say Rigta, the original nature that is unconditioned. It's kind of like a pointer
• 45:19
  or a guide like leading us to what might allow us to recognize the truth of who we really are
• 45:30
  and what we really are. For now, what I'll say is whatever way that voice or that information
• 45:39
  has meaning to you is what's most important. Also, to the extent that you feel like you are
• 45:49
  tapping into information that is going to improve the quality of your life and the lives of others.
• 45:56
  Like that's the barometer. Not like Oasis says, sell everything and go, you know,
• 46:04
  build a tower someplace to not get ahead of ourselves and you know, it just still maintain discernment
• 46:11
  because you know, it can be very enchanting. We see all of this things and then we think,
• 46:15
  Ayahuasca told me x, y, z. So to also make sure to check in with whatever the voice is or whatever,
• 46:27
  we perceive it is telling us and verify it. Do an investigation rather than just take things
• 46:33
  at pace value because it feels magical and mystical. Investigate. This is what the Buddha said.
• 46:40
  Don't believe me. Do your own investigation. I like that. As we come to an end,
• 46:48
  you mentioned that you see your life as before Ayahuasca and after. So in the last, you know,
• 46:56
  20 odd years since you've been doing this and technically even in the last 12 or so years that
• 47:02
  I've seen you, how have you changed? And even more recently, like, through your work with it,
• 47:11
  how is it developing? Do you just keep going deeper? Do the the layers just keep getting revealed
• 47:17
  or where does the journey that you've been on? Where has it taken you? I think it is taken and
• 47:23
  make closer to the awareness of how little I know. Number one, from a day to day in the last
• 47:33
  three years, I believe that it played a big role in coming to another medicine practice, which is
• 47:40
  that of the medicine Buddha and so Rikta and traditional Tibetan medicine, which I've been studying
• 47:47
  in the Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhist practices in the Utak Nintig, which is amazing to me because here's
• 47:54
  this other traditional medicine practice from the Himalayas on the other side of the world.
• 47:59
  And it just keeps unfolding and keeps inspiring me. I would say for me that I can't say you'd have
• 48:09
  to ask the people that know me, but I feel better and I feel like I'm a better person and I am
• 48:14
  more committed to my own self-care. And as a result of that being able to be of service to others,
• 48:25
  the mask drops down in the plane and they say, oh, put your mask on first before helping anyone else.
• 48:30
  So I feel like maybe the first 12 years were putting my mask on. And then, you know, the next
• 48:37
  were like, oh, okay, I think I have enough oxygen to help that person for two minutes. And so I
• 48:43
  think it's leading me to continue to expand and not get boxed in because it's easy to get boxed
• 48:49
  into like, this is the only way. And so I am so grateful to the plants and to the medicine
• 48:56
  for helping me so much to open my mind and open my heart and heal my body and help to amplify my
• 49:06
  innate intelligence and connection to myself and to teachers. And the journey continues, like,
• 49:15
  there's not an end point. Yeah, just like this continuing evolution. And if I am paying attention
• 49:21
  and I'm diligent, and I put forth good effort, and I'm disciplined, not in the like regimenic kind
• 49:28
  of way, but like in a way that I want to be. And I mean, paying good practices, then the benefits
• 49:35
  beyond anything I could say with this voice in this time, like, it's not something that really
• 49:40
  is easily translatable into language. I guess I could say there were hints of it, but the
• 49:50
  preciousness of this human life and this experience is astounded. It's so profound. I feel like
• 49:57
  to get the external circumstances of where I live or what I do and all of those things,
• 50:03
  I guess I could just say I feel better and I feel like I'm doing a better job at being human.
• 50:11
  Well, that's lovely. I want to thank you for talking about this. You know, I think we're
• 50:17
  finally at a place where we can actually more openly talk about this is is not just a lumped
• 50:22
  in as a drug or anything similar to what people in the eight, you know, growing up in the eighties
• 50:27
  were programmed around, but that this is a modality. And when you're called to it,
• 50:33
  it's a potential place of awakening and healing in a different way than we typically experience
• 50:40
  with modern day tools. Yeah. And side note, I grew up in the seventies. I'm a little bit older than
• 50:47
  you might imagine. And I grew up when we could still walk around, you know, smoking joints in the
• 50:53
  par and then came the Warren drugs. And this is your brain on drugs with the egg and the frying
• 50:58
  pan and all of that. But I would say there still is good reason to be discrete. And some things
• 51:10
  that even I might not be ready or able to hear in a way that is, say, respectful or
• 51:23
  honoring of the information of the practice. You use this word mainstream. I mentioned earlier like
• 51:33
  not everything is for everybody. And I do think that there is a good reason to be well prepared for
• 51:41
  whatever it is that we're receiving and not to dilute it, not to commodify things.
• 51:48
  At the same time, the information and the teachings that we receive should be shared
• 51:54
  whether people drink ayahuasca or not. And like how that shared is maybe not necessarily even saying,
• 52:01
  you know, ayahuasca taught me this or the plants told me this. But as I said, in how we show up,
• 52:07
  that's way more important than promoting the plants, let's say, because I think they know what
• 52:13
  they're doing. They're doing a good job promoting themselves and showing us. Yeah, it's interesting
• 52:19
  thought. Like it wants in a sense like, do your work show up in your best self? Do the best you
• 52:26
  can. Yeah. Yeah. But that the experience or the ayahuasca plant or whatever it is, that it's not
• 52:34
  necessarily about that. It's about who we are either from the experience or just in the world with
• 52:41
  it in conjunction with it. Like I love how you started this, which is, well, the plants behind me,
• 52:46
  how do I interact with those? Those are medicine too. And I think really what we're talking about is
• 52:52
  that this is maybe a possibility for certain people, but it's more important about what kind of
• 52:59
  mindfulness do we have in our day to day? Yeah. What's everything? Yeah. How are you living in our life?
• 53:06
  That's it. Are we kind to ourselves and to others? Thank you very much for taking the time to
• 53:13
  have this discussion. I really, I value your knowledge and your experience on this and you really
• 53:18
  are a linchpin for me kind of being aware that you're there. Should I ever need you? And so I
• 53:23
  just really appreciate you. Well, thank you for saying that. And I appreciate you doing this
• 53:29
  podcast and broadcasting to those who are ready and able to hear what is important to you in your
• 53:39
  quest to connect with and rekindle this ancestral wisdom that you astutely mentioned is available
• 53:50
  for all of us. And now if people want to find you just to learn more about your writings about
• 53:56
  your experiences, how can they do that? Sito Ramaya, S-I-T-A-R-A-M-A-Y-A.com. And the website is
• 54:07
  like literally ready to be launched after all these years and like finally getting with the
• 54:11
  modern era. And then there's a way to contact me on the website, but I think it's going to go live
• 54:17
  like in a few days. I have an old website that's up. It's just like a landing page. And you know,
• 54:23
  while we've been talking about ayahuasca, there's so many things that I do in terms of, you know,
• 54:27
  like I'm an SC practitioner, somatic experiencing, and so I rig the counselor, and and Nejong yoga
• 54:35
  teacher, and like all these things, and vietas, and puzengeras. And the thing is just like when you
• 54:42
  looked at that painting, ah, like there was something for you. So all the things I just mentioned,
• 54:49
  maybe you go to the website, and there's just one thing that speaks to you. So I hope to
• 54:54
  be able to provide things for people to contemplate and to think about and to read. And you can
• 55:01
  also just Google, Sito Ramaya, Sita, and writing and articles and different things come up on the
• 55:07
  internet as a result of a search look at. Well, thank you, and excited for what's coming for you
• 55:13
  in terms of this new work that you're doing, and look forward to reading more.
• 55:19
  Okay. Thank you so much, James. Thank you. And thank you all for watching our listening.
• 55:24
  It's such a joy to have these conversations with people like Sita, and to know that maybe it's
• 55:30
  going to affect one or many of you, and maybe it's this is the time you needed to hear it,
• 55:36
  because the goal is to support your health and to help bring these beautiful, important ancestral
• 55:43
  practices into our modern life. So thank you again, and stay curious.
• 55:49
  Thank you so much for joining me on everyday ancestral. If you enjoyed this episode, hit
• 55:55
  subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You could find the show notes links and resources
• 56:00
  mentioned at eatpluck.com. That's E-A-T-P-L-U-C-K dot com. And hey, if you know someone who'd
• 56:11
  get something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.