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Mini: Why Are Wedding Veils a Thing? · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why.
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  Speaker 2: We do what we do many I am your host
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Abraham and I'm Shane. We are a psychology podcast and
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: we like to talk about all of the things that
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  Speaker 2: humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we talk
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  Speaker 2: about these traditions that are involved in very very well
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  Speaker 2: established cultural institutions that our species takes on.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, and so today we are talking about veils or
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  Speaker 3: wedding veils. I have been married twice and I have
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  Speaker 3: seen veils at both of my weddings.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, interesting, We will dig in on that and how
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  Speaker 2: it came about. But I'll first say really quickly that
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  Speaker 2: this is a mini style episode. That means that we
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  Speaker 2: on Mondays we publish these episodes in which we take
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  Speaker 2: a quick jaunt, if you will, into a topic. We
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: just try to pack that topic in ten to fifteen
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  Speaker 2: minutes and then get out of there. Sometimes we're a
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  Speaker 2: little over that, sometimes we're a little under but they're
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  Speaker 2: just short and we like doing them because they're fun.
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  Speaker 2: So if you would like to check out our full
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  Speaker 2: length episodes, those release on Wednesdays. If you're joining us
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  Speaker 2: on for your this is your very first one. Then welcome,
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  Speaker 2: We're happy to have you here. We'll talk about the
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  Speaker 2: ways that you can maybe support us at the end
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: of this discussion, but let's go ahead and get into
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  Speaker 2: our topic du jour, which, as you said, has to
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  Speaker 2: do with the veils that people women in particular wear
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  Speaker 2: at their weddings. And I noticed that we tend to
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  Speaker 2: have brides cover their faces, and it's generally with this
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  Speaker 2: like very.
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  Speaker 1: Sheer piece of fabric.
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  Speaker 2: It's usually so sheer that it's like you can almost
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  Speaker 2: barely tell that it's there sometimes, But there are various
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  Speaker 2: styles that this is depicted, and it just got me wondering,
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  Speaker 2: why do we ask women to cover their faces in
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  Speaker 2: this manner when they're getting married?
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  Speaker 3: Right, So, of course, veils now might mean different things
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  Speaker 3: to different people or serve different sartorial functions. It might
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  Speaker 3: be used to bring together the bride's hair and her
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  Speaker 3: wedding dress. This might be it's like an accessory rather
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  Speaker 3: than maybe something more formal or very specific. But there
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  Speaker 3: is a tradition related to a lot of like at
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  Speaker 3: least American weddings.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, and well outside of that, this definitely did not
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  Speaker 2: start in the United States, but yeah, it might be
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  Speaker 2: this accessory it complements the rest of the fashion of
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  Speaker 2: the bride or the theme of the wedding. The veil
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  Speaker 2: might be designed with a specific length or pattern or
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  Speaker 2: color to go with the dress. Some are so long
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  Speaker 2: they essentially like flow into the dress and it's almost
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  Speaker 2: like the dress is wrapped around the woman basically head
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  Speaker 2: to toe.
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  Speaker 1: Almost.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Sometimes it's simply a flourish that just kind of
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  Speaker 2: adds to the appearance of the whole sort of wedding
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  Speaker 2: clothing ensemble, if you will.
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  Speaker 3: Sure.
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  Speaker 2: And there of course could be the motivation that it
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  Speaker 2: is an homage to or or love of very old traditions.
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  Speaker 3: Right, So, whenever this kind of stuff comes up, we
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  Speaker 3: always have to ask where did this tradition even come
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  Speaker 3: from to begin with? And for this one in particular,
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  Speaker 3: it's not very clear where the first instances of using
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  Speaker 3: a veil originated.
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  Speaker 2: No, now, there is an old tradition in Judaism that
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  Speaker 2: seems to be informed by the story of Jacob Rachel
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  Speaker 2: And is it Leah.
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  Speaker 1: Or Ley Do you know?
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  Speaker 2: I think it's Leah Leah from the Book of Genesis
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  Speaker 2: in the Torah. I guess that gives away my knowledge
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  Speaker 2: of the Book of Anyway, in this tradition, the groom
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  Speaker 2: places are actually in the story, the groom places a
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  Speaker 2: veil over the bride's head to ensure that he is
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  Speaker 2: marrying the correct woman and not repeating Jacob's mistake of
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  Speaker 2: marrying the incorrect woman. And when I first read that,
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  Speaker 2: I interpreted that to mean he put the veil on
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  Speaker 2: to make sure he was the right person. I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: that feels like that would make it more difficult to
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  Speaker 2: tell who the right person is. But I think in
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  Speaker 2: the story they're taken as a given that the woman's
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  Speaker 2: wearing a veil and that you're supposed to lift it
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  Speaker 2: before you marry her, right, and so that was what
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  Speaker 2: had happened. But again, why the veil?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, here we are. Now there's also the idea of
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  Speaker 3: the veil prevents the groom from seeing the woman's outer
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  Speaker 3: beauty and remembering he is marrying her for her inner
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  Speaker 3: beewy and that marriage is spiritual and not physical.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, there's that aspect of it that sort of in
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  Speaker 2: the Again, this is more in the sort of Judaism
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  Speaker 2: tradition here. Sure, Now as far as other accounts of
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  Speaker 2: where this started, because the Judeo Christian mythology really did
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  Speaker 2: not was not that old in human culture. It's you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's a couple thousand years, but there's many that have
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  Speaker 2: preceded that. Other accounts suggest that the tradition of veils
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  Speaker 2: may have originated in ancient Rome or ancient Greece. And essentially,
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  Speaker 2: the idea here was that it was the belief that
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  Speaker 2: evil spirits would try to attack the brides as they
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  Speaker 2: walk down the aisle, and had me thinking, like, is
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  Speaker 2: this supposed to be in like a religious place they
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  Speaker 2: are evil? Do you do you assume generally that their
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  Speaker 2: evil spirits in a church? Right, I don't know whatever.
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  Speaker 2: This obviously was pre Christianity, so they had different thoughts
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  Speaker 2: about that. But anyway, the idea here is that the
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  Speaker 2: evil spirits had tried to attack the bride, and the
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  Speaker 2: veil would protect the bride's identity, so the spirits wouldn't
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  Speaker 2: get hurt because they wouldn't know it was the bride
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  Speaker 2: because they're very dumb.
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  Speaker 3: Sure for sure. Yeah, I mean it's like, and they're
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  Speaker 3: going to wait to attack until there's a veil.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to do it before yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. So a couple of fun notes though, the tradition
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  Speaker 3: of white is much more recent than veils. In fact,
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  Speaker 3: it was very common for veils to be red or
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  Speaker 3: white with stripes to appear as though the bride was
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  Speaker 3: engulfed in flames, again to hide her from evil spirits.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we are covering the women's faces and setting
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  Speaker 2: them on fire, or at least giving this the impression
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  Speaker 2: of that symbolism, you know, sure sure interesting Also side here,
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  Speaker 2: I saw that some suggested that the veils, particularly back then,
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  Speaker 2: were pretty difficult to see through, and that the in
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  Speaker 2: these ancient veils, and that that because they were so
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  Speaker 2: difficult to see through, that gave rise to the practice
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  Speaker 2: of the father walking the bride down the aisle, as
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  Speaker 2: she otherwise really couldn't see where she was going, and
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  Speaker 2: thus the father would then have to give the bride
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  Speaker 2: away at the altar. And so that was was a
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  Speaker 2: suggestion as to where the tradition of the father giving
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  Speaker 2: the bride away came from, is the idea of veils,
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  Speaker 2: where they he would have to walk her down the
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  Speaker 2: aisle anyway because she couldn't see because of the veils.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I mean that makes logical sense. One thing that
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  Speaker 3: doesn't make logical sense to me in this those.
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  Speaker 2: Ads all right, So again, like this is one of
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  Speaker 2: those things where understanding the history is pretty much the
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  Speaker 2: task at hand. And so before the break we were
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  Speaker 2: talking about the the veils being use to ward off
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  Speaker 2: evil spirits or trick them, I guess, and that also
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  Speaker 2: gave rise to these other traditions of like the veils
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  Speaker 2: looking like flames, and the father walking the bride downe
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  Speaker 2: eye on that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 3: Sure, sure, so by the seventeen hundred, it's veils bonnets
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  Speaker 3: are those types of headwear we're starting to actually disappear
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  Speaker 3: from wedding traditions. But in February of eighteen forty, a
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  Speaker 3: very specific time, Queen Victoria married Prince Albert and she
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  Speaker 3: wore a white wedding veil and a gown.
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  Speaker 2: Her deciding to incorporate the veil like really launched this
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  Speaker 2: back into a common tradition, particularly at this time, and
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  Speaker 2: I think at various times throughout history, maybe even now.
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  Speaker 2: Whatever the royalty or the most high ups in a
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  Speaker 2: society are doing, a lot of people will try and emulate. So,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: like the foods that they eat will become more expensive
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: because it's a food that they commonly eat. Like lobster
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  Speaker 2: for a long time was considered poor man's food until
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  Speaker 2: it became like treated as it was like a delicacy,
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  Speaker 2: and then it became obviously much more expensive, and so
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  Speaker 2: they're similar. Thing like veils were kind of falling out
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  Speaker 2: of favor. People weren't really using them in weddings anymore,
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  Speaker 2: and then Queen Victoria decided to wear a veil, and
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  Speaker 2: all of a sudden it was all the rage again
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  Speaker 2: and got thrown back into sort of the zeitgeist, if
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  Speaker 2: you will.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like when orcas wear fish for hats.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah, exactly exactly the same dead fish and veils.
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  Speaker 2: So the veil has sort of come to represent modesty
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  Speaker 2: and purity and sort of more contemporary traditions along with
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  Speaker 2: the color white, as we discussed having like a symbolic
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  Speaker 2: meaning around things like purity. But that's sort of how
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  Speaker 2: it has evolved and changed over time.
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  Speaker 3: Right, And to be fair, this is not going to
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  Speaker 3: be an episode on the concerns or the connotations that
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  Speaker 3: go along with purity as it pertains the marriage and
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  Speaker 3: all that. That's a different conversation for a different day.
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  Speaker 3: But something interesting about veils. Sometimes vales are passed down
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  Speaker 3: across generations and have special familial significance. This happens a
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  Speaker 3: lot with a lot of different things, so it stands
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  Speaker 3: the reason that veales would also fall into this space
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  Speaker 3: of like, this was my grandmother's veil, and you're gonna
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  Speaker 3: pass it down and have like some family tradition around that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Sort of speaking to the reasons that these are still
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  Speaker 2: or ever incorporated into wed in traditions is like if
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  Speaker 2: you have an heirloom type thing.
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  Speaker 1: Right anymore, there really.
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  Speaker 2: Are no firm rules about what a veil should look like,
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  Speaker 2: or how it should be used, or if it should
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  Speaker 2: be used, and brid it's good to choose, Like they
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  Speaker 2: will often employ a veil because it will convey a
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  Speaker 2: certain look that they're trying to capture for their outfit.
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  Speaker 2: And again there's like an element of the fact that,
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  Speaker 2: like it is an homage to tradition. I think if
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  Speaker 2: we were if we took veils out of the equation
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  Speaker 2: completely and people were just choosing, I want to wear
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  Speaker 2: very fancy clothes for this particular ceremony, w h arey
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  Speaker 2: something that covered their face would likely not even be
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  Speaker 2: a consideration in that equation, right, But it does have
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  Speaker 2: this long history now, so I think that there has
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  Speaker 2: to be some orientation to this is a traditional way
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  Speaker 2: of doing this. But again we and we've talked about
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: like what do you mean traditional? Where does why? Where
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  Speaker 2: does that come from? And why is that important?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And ultimately it just means that tradition is what
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  Speaker 3: is left when the reason for doing something is long gone.
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  Speaker 3: But we do it anyway. There's basically a lot of
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  Speaker 3: it is symbolic, it's paying homage, but it doesn't have
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  Speaker 3: any functional use in the current kind of stratosphere that
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: is the practice of weddings or those types of ceremonies.
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  Speaker 2: I've been a little curmudgeonly about this for a long time,
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  Speaker 2: not veils specifically, but traditions generally. That Like, to me,
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  Speaker 2: if you're doing something because it's tradition, then it's like
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  Speaker 2: you have no reason, You have no reason to be doing.
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  Speaker 3: It, right, You're doing it because you've always done it
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  Speaker 3: like that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is like the worst of all reasons. And
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  Speaker 2: we sometimes do things just for so long, passed down
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  Speaker 2: for so long, we stop thinking about why we're doing it.
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  Speaker 2: We just keep doing it anyway. And like, if there
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  Speaker 2: is a reason, then in my mind, it's not a tradition,
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  Speaker 2: like it has a practical reason to be done that way.
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  Speaker 2: It's like I don't wear a seat belt because it's
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  Speaker 2: traditional to wear a seat belt. I wear a seat
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  Speaker 2: belt because it's the law, and it keeps me safe, right,
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  Speaker 2: and it keeps other people safe. So like it is
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  Speaker 2: a win win win situation, like that is not a
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  Speaker 2: traditional thing to do, is a practical thing to do, right,
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  Speaker 2: So traditions seem to be this thing that happens when
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: it's like we've stopped thinking about the reason for this
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  Speaker 2: and no longer serves a practical function in any way.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: But another question I had around this is like, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: so we've decided, for whatever reason that we're gonna wear
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  Speaker 2: veils at weddings because it wards off evil spirits, So why.
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  Speaker 1: Don't men wear veils?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 2: Right? Saint Paul and Corinthians eleven seven says, quote a man,
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  Speaker 2: on the other hand, and should not cover his head
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: because he is the image and glory of God, but
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  Speaker 2: women is the glory of man. So essentially the reason
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: here is sexism.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's this is what it boils down to. It's
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  Speaker 3: a literal interpretation of a Bible that is inherently biased
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  Speaker 3: against women. Right, So, although this would have been long
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: after the tradition of vales existed, vales did exist before.
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  Speaker 3: There was no explanation provided as to why men of
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  Speaker 3: ancient Rome or Greece would have no need to protect
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  Speaker 3: themselves from evil spirits. So, despite the fact that it's
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: in the Bible, the Bible is a newer text, a
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  Speaker 3: newer groups of wordings that have driven people's behavior. This
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  Speaker 3: tradition of men not wearing it has existed longer, which
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: tells me that it was probably canonized in a way
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: that the tradition of men not wearing veils was added
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  Speaker 3: to the Bible later, like it was added as part
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: of like the current people of power were like, no,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: this is what we do. Put that there, add this note, yeah,
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: you know, and that's I think that's more likely what happened.
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  Speaker 2: Someone asked, and they said, oh, well, just because, and
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: then they added in there because having something that appears
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: to be a penis and being assigned as a male
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: at birth is critically important in what you wear at
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  Speaker 2: these ceremonies. Yes, of course, in terms of whether or
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  Speaker 2: not you are the image and glory of God. Or
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: the image and glory of some other being that is
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: not God, because you are lesser than as would be
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  Speaker 2: applied by this. So yeah, given that it was the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: women who are being preyed upon by evil spirits and
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: even in these ancient Rome situations, and not the men.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: For some reason, the reason that veils ever started in
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: the first place probably had to do with sexism right
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: from the jump, right in one way or another. So
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I think at best, wedding veils represent a history of
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: sexism and oppression of women, and it's just been couched
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: in this tired old, pathetic excuse that it's tradition.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: It is doing something just because that's how.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: We do it, and we just don't really think about
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: doing it any other way. And again, I really don't
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: want to tell people what to do or not to do. Here,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I just am wanting to stop in question like why
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: are we doing this? Why are we doing this to
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: women and not to men?
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Well, and also to weddings are expensive, so if you
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: can save a little bit of money, then great. One
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: last thing to worry about is buying a veil.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: It's just extra fabric, it's extra work, and like, okay,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: so this whole thing of like paying homage to it
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: being a tradition. I'm like, it wasn't always a tradition, Like,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: couples have been coupling since before there were ever veils.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: In fact, humans did not start in ancient Rome, believe
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: it or not. So it was probably a tradition to
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: not wear a veil for marriages for longer than it
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: has been a tradition to wear a veil for marriages
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: because of how long humans have been around doing coupling things,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: which is like hundreds of thousands of years. For most
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: of the time we've been around, we haven't had veils.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: At some point a few thousands of years ago, people
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: decided to start wearing veils as part of this thing.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: But like, like if you want to lean on tradition,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: that's like a newer tradition in a sense. It's not
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: even like there's no real practical reason for it. It
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: doesn't actually like it's reasons the ward off evil spirits.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, like, you know, again, like it feels
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: like this is very specifically targeted to a very specific
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: group for a very non reason, right.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Right, right, right, And I think an important point to
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: end on is that we don't actually really care what
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: people choose to wear or not at their weddings. I
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: wore Jeane shorts.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: At mine, beautiful love that for you.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, to be fair as dressed as Bender from Breakfast
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: Club at my wedding.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Nice. So do whatever you want.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: But if we're going to keep the tradition going, it's
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: specifically atutrition of veils going. Let's expand it to everyone,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: or let's not do it, or let's at least do
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: it with reason. Yeah, and it can't be reason that is,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: it's it's how we've always done it. We need a
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: little bit more depth to it.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I think that, you know, for some people, I would imagine,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: just as you sort of mentioned, you could probably wear
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: a veil as the only piece of your like wedding ensemble.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, like you might be wearing other clothes, but
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: the only thing that's specifically designed to like be wedding
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: me is the veil part. And that that carries again
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: like symbolic, like a symbolic gesture toward the idea of
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: ceremony and tradition. And I actually would be a little
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: bit I would find that humorous. If someone's wearing like jeans,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: a t shirt and a veil. But again, I think
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: my biggest problem with it personally is like again I
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: think that traditions are dumb, But beyond that, I think
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: that like it is the sexism that is implied by
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: the practice that just it doesn't it doesn't have any
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: practical purpose. So I'm sort of like, I guess if
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: we want to do I mean, do whatever you want,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Like you don't, don't even listen to me, Like, if you.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Don't want to if you want to wear a veil,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: wear a veil.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: But like I also think, like if we're gonna do this,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: like anyone can wear a veil, the bride, the groom
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: can wear a veil, the pride, they can both wear
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: a veils, like who cares?
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: Like the priest can wear a veil the priest.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, make all the make all the attendees wear veil
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: just for fun, Like, yeah, let's let this be something
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: where we at least, at the.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Very very least it's equitable, like we're it's at least.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Fair, right exactly, But you know, I know people have
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: different feelings around it.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Some of them feel like.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Only the bride should wear a veil, and it's like
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: her special ceremonial piece and like that could be a
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: thing too. And I'm just all I'm asking here is like,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: let's just think about these things and ask the question
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: why are we doing this?
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good to know where it comes from. Yeah,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: and why are you doing it today? That's all?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: All right, Well we read very long because you know
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: we do that. But I think that's what I have
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: to say. Is there anything you would like to add
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: or anything I forgot before we wrap this one up?
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Shane, No, I think it covers it. I think we
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: did it. I think we solved veils.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: We solved veils. Thank you so much for listening. As
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I said, tune in for regular episodes. Oh a brief thing.
• 17:47
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• 17:49
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• 17:52
  Speaker 2: rating and a review, telling a friend. Then if you
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: do join us on Patreon, I'll read your name as
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: part of the credits on full length episodes. Okay, now
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I think that's it, So thank you for listening. Thank
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: you for recording with me today. Shane, This is Abraham Anytime.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: This is Shane wear out.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We do what we do.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: we hope you have an awesome day.