Latest / The Fourcast / How Zack Polanksi threatens Keir Starmer AND Nigel Farage

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How Zack Polanksi threatens Keir Starmer AND Nigel Farage · The Fourcast

0:00
I think we've got a problem in this country where Nigel Farage
0:02
says jump and Keir Starmer says how high.
0:05
You're never going to appease the right by slowly moving
0:07
towards the right. They just get worse and they
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drag the government with them. In a way, the Greens, in
0:13
winning, have invited the kind of scrutiny that people like me
0:16
have wanted the Greens to face for a long time.
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This is a party now that's sectarian, that wants to
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legalize hard drugs, that has attitudes on transgender issues
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that are way outside of the mainstream.
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We're used to talking about whether Labour when Lib Dems
0:30
took up edging towards a world in which we'll start talking
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about whether Labour and the Conservatives should.
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Hello and welcome to the forecast.
0:42
Something massive is happening. The words of the Green Party's
0:45
new MP Hannah Spencer, after her decisive win in the Gorton and
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Denton by election. Is she right?
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Labour came a distant third and neither the Conservatives nor
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the Liberal Democrats managed to get even 2% of the vote.
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Arguably none of that was unexpected, but Reform UK, up
1:02
until now seen as the populist insurgents ready to replace the
1:06
mainstream parties, fell short by over 4000 votes.
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Not nearly the knife edge result that was predicted.
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So is Nigel Farage in danger of running out of steam after
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diluting his party with Tory defectors?
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Could the Greens offer white working class voters a left
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alternative to kick the establishment?
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And is Labour going to have to move left whether to take on the
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Green threat or their unhappy backbenchers?
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I'm joined now by the ex Tory, now Reform commentator Tim
1:32
Montgomery. Sam White is a former chief of
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staff to Keir Starmer and Natalie Bennett is one of two
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Green peers in the House of Lords.
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But first, I've been speaking to her boss Zach Polanski in
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Manchester just after his party's win.
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First of all, tell me, I mean how and why do you think you
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won? I mean who?
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Who did you win over? Well, it's been phenomenally
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exciting to win this by election.
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I think there's a couple of factors I think #1 which can't
2:01
be underestimated is Hannah Spencer was just a phenomenal
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candidate and she'll be a brilliant MP and I can't wait
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for the country to see that. More widely though, I think her
2:09
message of a message of the Green Party to lower people's
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bills, to fund the National Health Service and rebuild our
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public services was immensely popular.
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And then finally, I think it's the political moment we're in,
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which is the Labour government have absolutely collapsed
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because they have no alternatives to change people's
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material conditions, the threat of a reform party and an extreme
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candidate. So people were looking for hope
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and a plan, and I think that's exactly what the Green Party
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offer. But what lesson are you going to
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take from this? I mean, do you think the lesson
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from Hannah Spencer is that you can actually win people over
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from reform as well as from Labour?
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You know she she was a white working fast 34 year old
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plumber. I think that's partly the
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message of the biggest learning though, I think is this was our
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127th target seat and actually that demonstrates that there's
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no no go errors for the Green Party and the starting gun has
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been fired because in 70 days there's local elections right
3:01
across England and Wales, including the Senath.
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And actually, where we have a good candidate, we're resourced,
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we have volunteers on the ground, we can challenge both
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Labour and indeed the Reform Party by offering the
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alternative which is the Green Party.
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And I think that's immensely exciting for British politics,
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especially as we're about to hit 200,000 members.
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So does this by election change your national ambitions?
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It definitely does change our national ambitions, but those
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have been changing all the time. Anyway, to give some context,
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when I was elected leader of the Green Party on September the
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2nd, during that leadership campaign, we had about 55,000
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members. As I said, we're about to hit
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200,000. We've also tripled in the
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opinion polls. But I think I did an interview
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with you where you said this is all very good, but doesn't mean
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you can win elections. And I think my answer then was I
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don't know. I believe so.
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I'm confident that we're going to have to prove it.
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Well, we've now proved it in spades.
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We had nearly 2000 volunteers on the ground yesterday and a 4000
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majority and what was once considered a very safe Labour
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seat. That doesn't mean we won't
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continue to work hard, it doesn't mean there won't still
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be challenges, but what I would say is that level of ambition
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has rapidly increased very quickly.
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Labour and the Tories are both attacking you as extremists, as
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you know, as people who tried to sweep up the Muslim vote in this
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very unusual constituency by pressing the point on Gaza and,
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and that, A, that doesn't translate to every seat in the
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country, but B, it takes us into a new era of divisive, they say,
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sectarian politics. I think there's a deeply cynical
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attack lines from both the Labour Party and the
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Conservative Party. We've seen a genocide in Gaza
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that has been ongoing for years now.
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It's not just me that's calling it a genocide, that's also
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including genocide scholars, organisations like Amnesty
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International and various human rights organisations.
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So I think it's really important that we're morally consistent on
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that. On top of that, I think it's
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important to say I'm a Jewish man and one of five Jewish
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people have been in leadership positions in British politics.
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You don't have to be Muslim to care about a genocide that is
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going on. I think this effects Muslim
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communities, Jewish communities and non faith communities.
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I think anyone who cares about morality and humanity has shown
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moral consistency in saying they don't want to vote for a party
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that is complicit or actively enabling that.
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That's not the only conversations we were having on
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the ground. People were largely concerned
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about their bills and lowering their bills.
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But it is also true that people have deep concerns about the
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actions of this Labour government that were also
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ongoing under the Conservative government too.
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But I, I suppose that, I mean, this constituency is very
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unusual, isn't it, that, you know, it had, you know, 1/2 of
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it in which it looked like reform could have won and half
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of it in which you clearly did extremely well.
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And I'm wondering what the lesson is for the general
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election there. You know, does this mean that
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the red wall seats that look like they might go reform is
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still out of your reach? Well, I think that's a
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preconception. First of all, that was
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demonstrated wrong by the data yesterday.
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Actually. We found ourselves performing
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very strongly in Denton as well as Gorton.
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For those who don't know Denton, that primarily is made-up of a
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more white working class population, although of course
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people live all over in all constituencies.
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I think every constituency is going to be unique in its own
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way. But I think the values I'm
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talking about are pretty universal, which is challenging
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multi millionaires and billionaires, challenging power
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and wealth and actually investing in our communities,
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investing in bringing people together and investing in unity
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rather than division. I think we've got a problem in
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this country where Nigel Farage says jump and Keir Starmer says
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how high. You're never going to appease
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the right by slowly moving towards the right.
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They just get worse and they drag the government with them.
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And that would be fine. I wouldn't be bothered apart
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from the government of this country and they're dragging us
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all down with them. And what the Green Party are
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being very clear on are issues like migration.
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If you have a migrant worker who comes to this country, they are
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so much more likely to put more money in tax than they ever take
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out in benefits. We very rarely hear these
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stories though. We rarely hear the fact that
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there are lots of vacancies on our National Health Service.
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Of course we should be training British workers, but frankly,
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while we've got those skills gaps, we should also be
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welcoming migrants too, who will be here and working and paying
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off our pensions, for instance. I think all of these things are
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stories that need to be told but so rarely do you ever hear
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these, certainly not from the Labour government.
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And they keep pushing towards reforms direction.
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What the Green Party intend to do, and I think we just did last
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night, is pull the whole centre of discourse over to the left
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and you can reject the labels left and right.
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Really, what I'm talking about here is common sense and making
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sure we're looking after communities rather than the
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Super wealthy. It seems likely that Labour
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could move to the left, though amidst all of this, there may be
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a change of leader. The soft left seam in the
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ascendancy in the Labour Party. You know, might they win some of
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those voters back? Well, there's a couple of things
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here. First of all, if the Labour
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Party did start to move to the left, sure, that might make my
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job a little bit more difficult as Green Party leader, but
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actually, frankly, as a citizen of this country, I'd absolutely
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applaud that and look to work with them on that.
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That being said, I don't think there's any evidence that's the
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direction the Labour Party are going to move and I think
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they'll probably learn all the wrong lessons from this.
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This is the same Labour Party that wanted to slash disability
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benefits that eventually lifted the two child benefit cap.
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It took them over 18 months. Now all of that I would say is a
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pretty unholy mess. And it may be that some Labour
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leader comes in and changes it all, but I don't see who that
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person is. Because actually every time
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there's been a Labour leadership election, anyone who's even on
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the soft left, as you put it, doesn't even make it on the
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ballot paper. And I think we're at the point
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where the Labour Party is so corporate, captured by vested
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interests, be it oil and gas arms companies, gambling
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companies, private healthcare companies, that we're never
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going to see a leader of the Labour Party who is actually for
8:34
the people rather than profit. But that's exactly why the Green
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Party exist. We exist to say we don't need to
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accept the slot that the Labour Party offer and we can reject
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the politics of division that reform offer and actually give
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people hope in the plan. What if they actually asked you
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to work with them? You know, could the Greens and
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the Labour Party work together under different leadership?
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Obviously, you know, if they said come and join us, we'll be
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the progressive coalition that stops reform.
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Would you be interested? I mean, I'm, I'm always keen to
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work with anyone who shares my values and wants to campaign on
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cross party issues. I'm a pluralist at heart.
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The party is that too. And so I think it's impossible
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to hypothesize. I always want to answer direct
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questions. But we know there are lots of
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Labour MPs and there's only a couple of them.
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I could imagine that would take the Labour Party in a direction
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where we could possibly work with them.
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I can't imagine in any scenario where they will eventually be
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Labour Party leader. But sure.
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And never rule things out. That would be a silly thing to
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do. And so I'll be watching closely.
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But actually, but that's not my focus, my focus right now is on
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winning more by elections, winning the council seats in 70
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days time and getting off first Senate members in Wales,
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including Anthony Slaughter and Tessa Marshall who will make
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history in Wales by being our first ever green elected
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representation on the Senate. Just finally, did you see any
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parallels or similarities between your movement and Nigel
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Farage, where he was some time ago in that, you know, he had
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this radical idea to leave the European Union, which everybody
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said, well, that's that's bonkers, it's never going to
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happen. You have some pretty far out
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ideas there as well, you know, in terms of possibly leaving
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NATO, which people say, well, this is terribly irresponsible
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and you know, it should never happen.
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You know, do you think that with time, the ideas that you're
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espousing the people say are crazy could become mainstream?
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Well, there's two things to unpack there.
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The first thing is, I would say what is crazy, if we're going to
10:23
use that term, is continuing to view Donald Trump as an ally.
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This is a man who has threatened to annex Greenland, one of our
10:29
supposed NATO allies. That would trigger Article 5,
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which means an attack on one is an attack on all.
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And actually what I've been saying is we should be having
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conversations and dialogue with our European neighbors.
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I think Brexit has been an absolute disaster both
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culturally and economically. And actually, we should be
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working with our neighbors to actually deal with the threat of
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Donald Trump in the same way that we're dealing with the
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threat of Vladimir Putin or Benjamin Netanyahu.
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I think it's about recognising who the authoritarians are in
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our world, and I would consider Donald Trump one of them.
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So that's the first thing on the kind of substance of the issue.
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To the wider point, I don't see a lot of parallels with Nigel
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Farage. This is a man who claims to be a
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man of the people, but he's a man of the wealthy people.
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Sure. He managed to make Brexit happen
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from outside Parliament and so I suppose there's a comparison to
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be made there in terms of I think it's important to both be
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in Parliament but also frankly I think there's a lot of work to
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be done within our communities. But I don't really see Nigel
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Farage doing that. I see him going on right wing
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news channels and grifting. Zach Polanski, thank you very
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much. Thanks so much for having me.
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Right. Well, Tim Montgomery pick pick
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that up. I mean, has Nigel Farage sort of
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hits a rough patch, you know, do you think welcoming in Jen Rick
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and Suella Braverman has been a mistake that has maybe been, you
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know, found out in this? Two things.
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I'd like to respond to that interview with one big
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observation in a minute as well. But if the result that was
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achieved by reform yesterday in that by election was repeated
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across the country, reform would have a majority in Parliament.
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The swing was such in a seat. So I think Zach Polanski said
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that was the 127th Green target seat.
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It's the 480th reform target seat.
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So it was always uphill for us to win that seat.
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So we're on track insofar as you know, this stage of the
12:18
parliament, anyone's on track. And look I.
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Wouldn't say that as well though.
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I mean if Zach planning said well if there was AI.
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Don't know what the swings to the Greens was, but it was
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enormous. It was enormous.
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If that was repeated across the country, we'd be we'd have a
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majority. But they would have 100 M if the
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if all the swings that happened yesterday repeat, they would
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have 100 MPs, we would have over 400 MPs.
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So it you know, it would not have happened in most seats.
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Denton and Gorton is an unusual constituency.
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The other thing is obviously I would have much preferred
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perform to win than the Greens. But very close members of my
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family voted Green at the last general election, and they voted
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because they thought the Green Party was a Green Party, an
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environmental party. And I think Zach Polanski very
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briefly mentioned oil and gas interests in a partial answer to
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one of your questions. But there was nothing on climate
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change, nothing on the environment.
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What the Green Party now is, is a left wing party.
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That's clear, Fair enough. But people in the shires who
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traditionally voted Greens, who would normally vote Conservative
13:19
but were attracted to conservation, they have got to
13:22
realise that this is a party now that sectarian, that wants to
13:26
legalise hard drugs, that has attitudes on transgender issues
13:31
that are way outside of the mainstream.
13:33
And so in a way the Greens in winning have invited the kind of
13:37
scrutiny that people like me have wanted the Greens to face
13:41
for a long time. You are you ask hard questions.
13:44
Reform, quite rightly now need to start asking really hard
13:47
questions about Green Party because I think a lot of the
13:51
Muslim voters in Manchester yesterday who voted for the
13:55
Greens, were they aware of quite how critical the Greens are on
14:00
some of these issues? I don't think so, not at all.
14:02
And when, you know, Natalie was leader of the Green Pass, she
14:04
didn't talk in these terms. Natalie.
14:06
Yes, I did. You you spoke about the
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environment nearly all the time because that was what most, most
14:11
motivated, what's most motivated or traditional voters.
14:14
That was a completely different, completely different offering.
14:18
I mean, the thing about Tories who who might vote Green?
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Yeah, they might also be people who regard reform as sectarian
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and as racist. Well, and and that's why they
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they go green rather than reform.
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Yeah, well, we weren't the party in the yesterday's by election
14:35
who were using non-english language leaflets painting a
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picture. Why was that Modi image in the
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middle of a party election broadcast?
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They were trying to appeal to Muslim voters who maybe don't
14:48
like it from originally from Pakistan, who don't like what
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India is doing to Muslim community.
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It was a sectarian campaign. So if you're talking about
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division Krishnan, I know which which party yesterday was
14:59
campaigning most divisive thing and it wasn't, it wasn't, it
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wasn't reform. Well, I think let let me answer
15:04
specifically that question about why the Modi image that was
15:08
Narendra Modi with Sir Keir Starmer that was making the
15:13
point about the government's relationships with authoritarian
15:16
regimes. Come on, no.
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And and and that's. Don't treat us as idiots.
15:20
You know why you did it. That is reflects what's always
15:23
been Green Party positions. You know, I challenge the fact
15:26
people when I was elected leader in 2012 said, oh, she's changing
15:30
the Greens, she's moving away from the environment.
15:33
She's talking about social issues.
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I was majoring, for example, on a real living wage.
15:38
The Green Party has always understood economic and
15:40
environmental justice are indivisible.
15:43
That's a core part of our political basis.
15:45
You, you've chosen sort of Pakistani and Bangladeshi
15:48
communities over Indian communities in, in, in that
15:52
respect, because obviously calling Modi an authoritarian
15:54
when he's a, you know, he's a democratic.
15:56
Country. Is is a.
15:58
We we call. We it is a big choice.
16:00
We call Trump an authoritarian. I was in the House of Lords
16:03
yesterday talking about concerns about America using undue
16:07
pressure on British business, on the British government as an
16:10
authoritarian government. These are things that the Greens
16:13
have always stood up for. You go right back in the day,
16:15
you know, we were the people who stood up for the Tibetans
16:17
against the Chinese government. I've been very regularly talking
16:21
about Jimmy Lyon, the situation in Hong Kong.
16:23
This is the natural green position, standing up for human
16:26
rights and the rule of law all around the world.
16:28
So I mean, is this the choice you think that Britain is edging
16:32
towards its reform versus the left and currently the Greens?
16:37
Well, look, that it's an incredible, let me answer it,
16:40
almost taking my reform hat off for a minute because it's what
16:45
worries me actually in some sense.
16:46
And I think it's the biggest thing that's happening on
16:48
politics. We've got used to the fact that
16:51
the Tory Party and the Labour Party are now polling so badly.
16:55
You add up the Tories and Labour together now in almost every
16:58
opinion poll we've had for six months and they don't between
17:02
them get more than 40%. We have a splintering now in our
17:05
politics, almost like a consumerisation of politics.
17:08
Isn't that good? Isn't that people getting the
17:10
chance to vote for who they like?
17:11
Yes, the, the that's of course a good site and I welcome that
17:14
people can vote for reform. But the problem is, is that
17:17
people you could start winning elections in constituencies as a
17:21
party that some might regard as extreme on 25% of the vote when
17:25
when you have 5 or six parties competing, which we will in lots
17:28
of seats in the next election. The unpredictability of
17:31
elections in a first past the post system is, you know, the
17:35
first past the post system is being tested to the extreme now,
17:38
and it may produce some really unusual results.
17:40
So is reform still in favour of proportional representation?
17:43
I am not in favour of proportional representation, but
17:47
if we are moving to a permanent system of all of 5-6 party
17:51
politics, I will have to recognise that first past the
17:53
post is no longer fit for purpose.
17:55
I'm, I'm willing to give that up yet, but I'm heading that way,
17:58
yeah. Sam, I mean, do you think this
18:00
is the emerging choice? I mean, you know, Keir Starmer
18:03
said today, you know, he's against, against extremism on
18:05
the left and right, and that's what he sees these two parties
18:08
as, but they're doing well. Yeah, I think it'd be churlish
18:12
not to congratulate the Greens on the victory in the by
18:16
election last night. I've been listening to to sort
18:20
of Tim and Natalie going head to head and enjoying it very much.
18:24
You know, Tim rightly points out that under Zach Polanski, the
18:28
Greens are now a left populist party.
18:31
You know, Natalie fires back that reformers are right
18:33
populist party. They're both right.
18:35
What do we know about populist parties?
18:39
You can solve any of the major studies.
18:40
You know, 120 years, 60 countries, they always show the
18:44
same thing. You vote populist left, you vote
18:47
populist right. It always makes you poor as a
18:49
country. So anyone here who's
18:51
prioritizing quality of public services or cares a damn about
18:55
cost of living issues? Very simple.
18:57
Can't vote reform. Can't vote that.
18:59
Historical argument just doesn't work.
19:01
Anymore, it's not because. We haven't really had this kind
19:04
of choice before and there haven't been great comparisons
19:08
to make. You can't say, well look what
19:09
they did, you know, in Germany or France and you know and it's
19:12
all gone. You're saying disregard 120
19:14
years of academic research countries?
19:18
We're in a different world now. We're in a different world in
19:20
this country in that we now have parties on the populist left and
19:24
populist right who are doing very well in the polls and
19:27
winning by elections. But it doesn't change the nature
19:29
of what a populist government is.
19:31
It always, always, always and in all cases makes people poorer
19:35
over the long term. But can I, can I just briefly
19:37
respond to that? Because the trouble with what
19:40
Sam says and I used to be on your side in a way because I, I
19:43
was a Conservative, is what is so unusual about this period in
19:47
time. And I think it raises profound
19:49
questions about our politics is that we have seen the
19:52
Conservative and the Labour Parties fail at the same time
19:55
and they do not. People do not feel better off
19:57
even under the mainstream parties.
19:59
And it isn't just Britain. So can't just blame Rishi Sunak
20:02
or Keir Starmer. It's happening in most Western
20:04
countries. There is a deep.
20:07
Unease about how government and politics operate.
20:10
So why I think it is different this time, and it's probably a
20:12
permanent phenomenon, is it's not just a British phenomenon.
20:15
You know, the Greens and sort of populist parties across Europe
20:19
are on the March. There is something that's
20:21
happened in the way democratic politics works and advanced
20:24
Western societies don't work, but it isn't going to go.
20:27
Away. But this is not unprecedented.
20:29
The last time we had a really radical shift in politics was
20:32
the election of Margaret Thatcher and Reagan in the
20:34
states. Blair was the child of Thatcher.
20:36
Cameron was the child of Blair. I'm not quite sure what Boris
20:39
Johnson was, but let's park back to one side and then, you know,
20:44
Zakir is the child of Blair. So we've been stuck in this
20:47
pattern, which is now clearly a failed plat pattern.
20:49
And you know, it's time for a change.
20:51
The election of Thatcher was a big radical change.
20:53
This is a time for another change.
20:55
Sam I mean the the question is how Labour should respond.
20:59
And at the moment it's just where we carry on and carrying
21:01
on is losing is is the trouble. And so that's not going to work,
21:04
is it? No, I mean, and to go back to
21:07
sort of answer this question through Natalie's analysis, I
21:11
don't see it as that, that, that continuation.
21:13
I think we had a big break following the global financial
21:17
crisis, which which from which we have seen a lot of
21:21
repercussions. You immediately had a
21:24
Conservative government that deliberately and consistently
21:27
did not invest in productive economy, which we always could
21:31
see was going to hold down productivity, hold down growth,
21:34
hold down living standards. We've seen no increase in
21:37
earnings per person since 2008. And then you compound it with
21:42
the second great mistake of the of the last 50 years, Brexit,
21:46
which everyone who's looking at the evidence and paying
21:48
attention said would make us poorer for the long term.
21:52
And sure enough, it's delivered exactly that.
21:54
We are poorer. So we have a combination of Tim
21:57
Montgomery and and Nigel Farage's Brexit strategy with
22:00
the Tories squeezing the productive investment out of the
22:03
economy strategy. That's 15 years where this
22:06
country has been dragged backwards.
22:08
And I think the biggest mistake this government has made and
22:10
it's original saying it is always underestimated the scale
22:14
of the damage done over the last 15 years and has totally under
22:17
prepared the public for quite how difficult and quite how long
22:21
this turn around. Operation because it was
22:22
criticised for saying everything was terrible in those first few
22:26
months. You know, we had that series of
22:27
sort of announcements by. And they were.
22:29
Saying it's all, it's all grim and people saying, well, this is
22:32
this is all going a bit too far now, but you're saying they
22:34
didn't go far enough. I'm exactly what I'm saying.
22:36
I'm saying there was a brief moment in the Rose Garden where
22:39
Keir Starmer levelled with the public and said guys, it is
22:42
really bad. It's going to get worse before
22:44
it gets better. It's a decade of recovery and as
22:46
you say, Christian, suddenly everyone said, oh, we don't
22:48
really like this message and the government panicked and
22:51
abandoned it and basically said Britain's not as broken as you
22:54
think. And as soon as you say that, you
22:56
are owning the problems inherited from the last
22:58
government. So what now?
22:59
So what now? So I think that it's not a when
23:02
we say bold and action, it's not a question of spiralling left or
23:06
spiralling right. It's actually about bold reform
23:08
in the centre based on evidence. I'm a huge fan of evidence based
23:12
policy making, right? I know how to do a good sound
23:15
bite. I know how to make something
23:16
sound great in the press release.
23:18
That is absolutely irrelevant to whether it works in practice on
23:21
the ground. I mean, isn't there a danger for
23:23
you that the grievances that have done very well for reform
23:29
might just not be so bad in two or three years time?
23:32
You know, interest rates down, mortgage, mortgage costs down,
23:36
inflation down, net immigration down, that they're processing
23:41
the asylum logs, You know, they might get somewhere with the
23:45
boats if they can make this French deal work.
23:47
All of a sudden things are things are starting to look a
23:49
little. It's a big if, I'll give you
23:51
that. But what I mean is things don't
23:53
may not look quite so bad in two or three years time and.
23:58
If they don't, I welcome that. You know, I, I want the best for
24:00
my country. I, I believe in the country, but
24:03
I, I, I don't think they will look profoundly different.
24:05
And taking Sam's starting point of the stock market crash at
24:10
that time, if you looked at the GDP per head of the average
24:14
European country, including Britain and America, we were
24:17
basically at almost at the same point.
24:19
We've now fallen about 20% behind.
24:22
So the so I don't think that's going to quickly turn around in
24:24
five years. Now what is the fundamental
24:26
reason, talk about evidence base, what is the fundamental
24:29
reason that that has happened? Well, one of the reasons is you
24:32
look at the energy prices in Europe compared to America.
24:35
America they've fracked, they've invested in cheaper energy and
24:39
they they've begun to see manufacturing and other
24:41
industries recover. They've begun to see the economy
24:43
become much more competitive. They can have the AI investment
24:47
that is driving we, On the other hand, our energy prices in
24:50
Britain, which the Green Party would make even worse, we have
24:53
the most expensive energy in the Western world.
24:56
So we haven't actually contributed.
24:57
It will be the cheapest once it's all gone renewable.
25:00
Yeah, and it'll be stable. No, renewable energy is the
25:03
future. I absolutely believe in
25:04
renewable energy, but the evidence is it is advancing so
25:08
fast. Ed Miliband has just done 25
25:10
year auctions so that we are going to be stuck with the
25:14
renewable energy technology now for 25 years.
25:16
In 5-7 years renewable energy technologies are advancing so
25:20
fast they're going to be much cheaper.
25:22
We have made a bet on using current energy for
25:25
understandable reasons. Climate change is an urgent
25:27
problem, but we are now saddled with incredibly expensive energy
25:30
for 25 years. Whereas if we were a little bit
25:33
more pragmatic about a real problem, we wouldn't be saddled
25:36
with those costs. The choices between no
25:40
investment to the energy infrastructure and things being
25:42
a little bit cheaper or investment and cost going to the
25:47
consumer because we haven't invested so long, the only
25:50
choice is to invest. So you have a straight up
25:52
choice. Do you rebuild the sort of 1950s
25:55
infrastructure and go coal, oil, gas, all the stuff which is
25:59
dependent on Russia and others? Or do you build, you know, free
26:02
use renewable energy? Both of them are going to
26:05
require massive investment in the infrastructure system and
26:07
the transmission network, right? So this higher cost that we're
26:10
paying is a function of failing to invest in the 90s and other
26:13
times can. You address Tim's original
26:16
point, which is that, and this is not something you're really
26:18
talking about, and it is an area across which you can reach the
26:23
whole country and the political spread.
26:25
Well, I mean, it's just simply not true to say that we're not
26:27
talking about this. I, I talk about this, we all
26:29
talk about this in Parliament on a daily on on on a daily basis.
26:33
To be attended. I, I I didn't talk about it in
26:36
that interview. Well, you know, I I come back to
26:39
the point that economic and environmental justice are
26:42
indivisible. But more than that, I want to
26:43
come to the point, you know, I'm going to absolutely agree with
26:45
you that Brexit was economically and more than that, socially
26:49
disastrous. It has made the young people
26:51
losing the. Right of trading the subjects
26:53
straight away, you had about 20 seconds on the environment and
26:56
immediately wanted to change the subjects again proving the.
26:57
Point you might let me finish the sentence and and the
27:00
paragraph 1st to see where I'm where I'm going.
27:03
So Brexit made us much poorer all over the place.
27:07
We can agree on that. Austerity was terrible.
27:10
I was the person who was saying we we have to stop making the
27:13
poor, the disabled, the young, pay for the greed and fraud of
27:16
the bankers. Where I utterly split with you
27:19
is the idea that what we were doing in the 1990s and 2000s was
27:22
success. That was what produced the
27:24
financial crash. That's what produced that
27:26
trashed the planet. You know, that produced the
27:28
fracking in America. That is is what produced what we
27:32
have now. So we have to have radical
27:33
change. Centrist, centrist politics is
27:36
dead because it means leave things much as they are.
27:38
And it's a broken model. It's the model rural of Epstein
27:41
and Mendelsohn. That that is a pathetic but.
27:45
But how is the Labour Party going to resist the
27:48
parliamentary party and the unions dragging it to the left
27:52
now and saying the only way we can respond to this is to try
27:56
and tackle the Green the Green challenge?
28:00
I mean, Christian, you're right there and there is a problem.
28:02
I think now a part of the Labour Party would like to move to the
28:05
left. Personally I don't think that's
28:07
the answer to almost any of the problems the country faces.
28:10
I do disagree with the characterisation of the 90s and
28:13
2000s as not working. It was the longest period of
28:16
sustained growth. Real living standards, improving
28:19
public services at the highest level of public satisfaction.
28:21
Shortest waiting list of the NHS ever.
28:23
Every pretty much every indicator improved over that
28:27
period. And that created the world we
28:28
have now. No, we, we, we the the
28:31
industrial revolution went back somewhat further than the 19
28:34
late 1990s and the the aggregation of greenhouse gases
28:38
in the atmosphere is cause of climate change, which is a real
28:41
problem and needs addressing that the Labour government, you
28:44
talk about the Blair government was one of the 1st to take some
28:46
real serious action on climate change, including introducing
28:49
the Climate Change Act. I know Tim's a big fan of.
28:51
It is worth pointing out, of course then that was total cross
28:54
party agreement, which shows you how much the right of politics
28:57
has changed. It's, it's true.
28:58
It was one of the great, great successes of that period was
29:00
there was a consensus on climate change and the need to take real
29:03
action. And I, I'd love to see that
29:04
those days. It's one of the great successes
29:07
that we did nothing to actually reduce climate change, but we
29:11
did export all of our manufacturing industry to China
29:14
where they produce the same goods with greater pollution.
29:17
That wasn't an achievement. It was an economic disaster for
29:21
the working class communities of this country.
29:23
And you 2 agreeing on that suggest you've learned nothing.
29:26
No, I the the loss of manufacturing to China is not
29:29
simply a function of not simply. But change but it.
29:32
Losing manufacturing China is a problem for all Western
29:36
countries to some extent or another.
29:37
Somehow, I mean, you know, as, as some, you know, some sort of
29:40
I pushed back on my sort of suggestion that things might be
29:42
feeling a little bit better in two or three years time.
29:45
I mean, if he's right about that and, or even if things are a
29:48
little bit better, people don't feel it because, you know, it's,
29:51
it's, it's, it's still pretty marginal and we're way behind
29:54
the Americans now. Then what what is the, what is
29:57
the political answer for Labour? If you think it's a mistake to
30:02
go to the left, then what is the answer And and do you think you
30:07
know it doesn't really matter who the leader is?
30:08
You know that it's more about direction?
30:10
Or does the leader matter? So I think the point you make
30:14
around whether the economy picks up does matter hugely.
30:17
And there, you know, there's mixed picture over the last 18
30:20
months, but there's some reasonable positive news on
30:22
inflation and borrowing costs coming down.
30:25
That's good. I welcome that.
30:26
And that could make a difference.
30:27
Personally, the reason I'm a bit of a gloomster is I think
30:30
serious improvements to the economy take longer than people
30:34
think. So I don't know how this
30:36
government manages to buy the time it needs for these
30:40
productive economies to start paying off.
30:42
If I was a voter in Britain right now, I would feel quite
30:45
stuck. I know if I vote populist left
30:48
or populist right, my my wages go down, my public services go
30:51
down. How can I find a government that
30:54
is going to do the difficult, sensible, productive things and
30:58
then give them enough time for them to pay off?
31:00
I don't know how you do that at the moment.
31:01
Tim And what, what, what? I also sacked Polanski about the
31:03
idea of a sort of a progressive consensus.
31:06
He didn't rule it out. You know what, what if we move
31:10
towards a world in which the centre starts to cooperate a bit
31:14
more, Labour and the Lib Dems team up a bit more.
31:19
I mean, and tactical voting keeps you out of power.
31:23
Do you think that's possible? I think tactical voting is a
31:25
problem for reform at the moment.
31:26
There's a lot of people that regard reform as the big
31:29
bogeyman in British politics. I understand that.
31:32
And I think what would change, and this is vindicated by
31:36
reforms internal polling, is if the Greens really do emerge as a
31:39
force in British politics and they began to become the power
31:42
that lastly would like them to be.
31:45
That motivates a lot of Conservative voters who are
31:47
currently a bit wary of reform, Lib Dem voters in the West
31:50
Country, maybe even some centrist Labour people to
31:53
actually think if the choices are reform sort of flavoured
31:58
government or a Green flavour government.
32:00
The tactical voting unwinds and it becomes as much of a problem
32:04
for the left as as the right. So the the basic problem, I
32:07
wrote an article for the Times a few years ago in which I said
32:10
we're all in the wrong parties, you know, because we've all got
32:13
these inherited obligations. I've eventually left the
32:15
concerted party because it didn't fit me anymore.
32:17
But The thing is there's, we've basically been ruled from
32:20
British politics for a long time by Blairites, Orange Bookers
32:24
like Nick Clegg and Cameroons. But they are kind of all in the
32:28
different parties. And the the, the populist left
32:31
are reorganising, the populist right are reorganising, but the
32:34
centre is stuck in three different parties.
32:37
And that is the big question. I don't know how with the centre
32:40
can organise them, but they will.
32:42
They will start to lose elections really badly now
32:44
unless they reconfigure. Well, The thing is, Tim, I'm
32:47
entirely comfortable in the party.
32:48
It's the only party I've ever belonged to do.
32:50
You think the Greens should resist the progressive consensus
32:53
and stay distinct and the left wing alternative?
32:56
They're offering a hope and a plan.
32:58
As Zach said, that's what we're offering to voters.
33:01
Voters have just today embraced that very, very happily.
33:05
We're going to take that as far and show that to as many voters.
33:08
You know, in May, we're going to see that in the London council
33:11
elections, council elections around the country, the Senate,
33:13
our sister party up in Scotland, voters.
33:16
I think we're going to see lots of voters embracing it.
33:18
And that's then a path that we're going forward with.
33:21
Sam I mean, you know, we're used to talking about whether Labour
33:24
and the Lib Demister took up. Are we edging towards a world in
33:27
which we'll start talking about whether Labour and the
33:29
Conservatives? Should I?
33:32
Think lots of voters think they already have.
33:34
Actually, I think my colleagues here would like to present the,
33:38
the, the, the, those two parties in that way just, I mean, the
33:43
honour of Lib Dems for one second.
33:45
I feel slightly sorry for them because when I woke up this
33:47
morning, the the description of how this election was won, you
33:51
know the Greens faced both ways. They've attended their easy
33:55
answers to difficult questions and they allowed the public to
33:58
give a bloody nose to an unpopular government doing
34:00
different things in a low cost way.
34:02
I've heard this paper before. It's called the Lib Dems and
34:04
it's how they've won all the by elections they have over the
34:06
years. Then I remembered Zach Polanski
34:08
spent most of his career as a massive.
34:10
He spent a couple of years so very early on when he first got
34:14
involved in politics. I I met him then.
34:16
And and if you haven't seen the video of him singing the glories
34:19
of the Lib Dems, I would I would hunt it out immediately.
34:21
Have to listen to this podcast everyone to see what kind of
34:24
values Zac Flansky has. But you know, to your core
34:28
question, what about the centre? I think there is a, a reality.
34:32
I'm not sure we're anywhere near it where if the, the sort of
34:36
breaking apart of the traditional electoral shapes in
34:40
Britain is actually going to happen in a way where it appears
34:44
to be at the moment. And I would also say, let's not
34:47
get too excited. This was won by election, but in
34:50
the polls generally. Wait for me.
34:51
In the polls, generally there is there is something happening
34:53
which is really interesting. And happening all over the
34:55
world, which I think makes it more than.
34:56
One and, and, and if you looked at last May's elections, the,
35:00
the smallest percentage of the vote which someone won a, a seat
35:03
in the first past the post contest was I think 18.7%.
35:07
Like that is crazy. We're in a world where, you
35:10
know, you could have less than 1/5 of the vote and, and, and,
35:12
and win in the first past the post election.
35:15
I think that is going to create new pressures on our democratic
35:19
structures here. I don't know whether the answer
35:21
is electoral form in a way that we've been talking about,
35:24
whether it's some party starting to, to break up.
35:26
What I would really like to see is a party that stood for
35:30
dealing with the real problems facing the country.
35:33
For me, that is things like let's increase our defence
35:35
spending to see off Russia. Let's put productivity as our
35:38
first and foremost goal to actually get some growth so we
35:41
can afford our public services and raising living standards and
35:44
actually doing the difficult things that takes.
35:47
I would welcome seeing, you know, more people coalesce
35:50
around there. We're going to talk about the
35:52
threat of Russia. Let's think about security in
35:54
the broader sense, not just about defence but also think
35:57
about diplomacy, which you've slashed, the spending on aid
36:00
money. We have to think about a more
36:02
secure, stable world. And just thinking about defence.
36:05
We have to think about defence, absolutely.
36:06
And we have to think about the fence in a world in which Trump
36:09
is threatened to invade Greenland.
36:11
But more than that, we need to think about this holistically.
36:14
And that also means things like resilience, food security,
36:16
tackling the climate emergency, dealing with the nature
36:19
collapse. We should just briefly talk to
36:21
him about the party that isn't he's literally not part of the
36:25
conversation, which is the conservative party now they they
36:30
were nowhere in this by election and and they they were never
36:33
going to be. But isn't Kenny Bate Knock
36:35
having something of a, a, a good time?
36:39
Yeah, at the moment. And she's doing quite well.
36:42
I mean it. Sometimes it reminds me of sort
36:44
of William hagging against Tony Blair.
36:45
You know that she can do quite well against Keir Starmer, but
36:48
it doesn't. Really both getting too old from
36:49
these a period her position. But are, you know, are you, Are
36:53
you sure you were, you were right to leave the the Tories?
36:57
Yeah. And that and that they might not
36:59
come back as the as the right wing alternative that isn't so
37:03
extreme. I'm sure I was right to leave
37:05
the Conservative Party, whether I was joined right to join
37:07
reform. I wonder about every day because
37:09
it is a high wire act. You know, nothing has ever been
37:12
done, you know, to move from a few MPs to majority.
37:15
So it's a high risk project. But why?
37:17
I mean, you come why, but why I'm confident.
37:19
I just answer your question, why I'm confident I left the
37:22
Conservative Party was I like Kimmy Benton.
37:24
I think she's and she's definitely got a lot better.
37:26
You're right, no impact on the Tory poll rating at all.
37:31
And that's because I think the British people have a have a
37:33
sense that the terrorist party needs to do its porridge.
37:36
It needs to sort of it needs to explain which it hasn't done
37:41
yet, why those 14 years of Conservative government failed
37:44
on their own terms. You know, tax went up, public
37:48
services with home ownership, whether all the things that the
37:50
Conservatives said they would do will be associated with went in
37:53
the wrong direction. And so I think even if Khemi
37:55
Bade not, you know, was taped, replaced by Jesus Christ, they
37:58
had the most perfect leader. I think the Conservative Party
38:00
wouldn't recover for a while. And so I back Reform because if
38:04
you're on the right to British politics, they're the only game
38:07
in town for this. And there is no way the
38:09
Conservative Party would have been competitive in Manchester.
38:11
Now they're going to go backwards in Scotland and Wales
38:14
in the coming elections. They're not a National Party.
38:17
One thing that's interesting about both the Greens and Reform
38:20
is we can compete almost everywhere that.
38:23
Also means, doesn't it, that you you have to be comfortable with
38:26
the kinds of things Matt Goodwin was coming out with.
38:29
Matt Matt Goodwin would not been my choice the.
38:31
Question. No, I, I would not have selected
38:34
Matt Goodwin. He's, I, I, I have kept silent
38:36
during the campaign. I regard some of his views as
38:38
sulfurous. I do not think he should have
38:40
been our candidate. And I think the Tory, the Tory,
38:43
the Reform Party might have dodged a bullet.
38:46
And not having him as part of the parliamentary party.
38:48
I think Reform needs to get much more serious about candidate
38:51
selection. The Green Party candidate was
38:53
brilliant. She was Winston.
38:54
She was attractive. The machine behind her for a
38:58
really ugly sectarian campaign. Sorry.
39:00
Winsome and attractive are not are not the two things I would
39:03
have picked out about her I. I just said I.
39:06
Just said 34 year old white working class.
39:08
I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't. Meaning you're really in the
39:11
wrong. Way I was saying it was a
39:12
personality, but I wasn't right. You're misinterpreting what I
39:15
was saying. She was she was warm.
39:17
She was, you know, she talked about her dogs.
39:19
It was she she was a attractive personality.
39:21
That's what I say. I wasn't talking about the looks
39:24
if that was, but. But on but on where reform is
39:26
and as a supporter, you've kind of got to sort of square
39:29
yourself with it is, you know, there are things about what he
39:32
said that people regarded as racist.
39:35
I think there was a, there was a ridiculous debate about whether
39:37
you're English, I think, or. Other people being supported by
39:40
Tommy Robinson. That's a bit uncomfortable,
39:41
isn't it? Oh yeah?
39:42
Well. One of the things that Nigel
39:43
Farage does not get enough credit for is the fact that he's
39:46
kept Tommy Robinson, you know, out of Reform and weren't
39:49
touching with a barge pole. Nigel Farage police's the right
39:52
in a way that Jeremy Corbyn never police the left, and for,
39:55
frankly, Zach Polanski isn't, but they.
39:58
Won't condemn him now will they? Who?
40:00
Tommy Robinson? Yes, they will.
40:01
You are. You get Nigel Farage on this
40:03
program and I guarantee you any money, he will condemn Tommy
40:06
Robinson 100%. And I would if, if Nigel Farage
40:10
allowed Tommy Robinson into Reform Party, I would leave the
40:14
next minute. He's an unacceptable person to
40:17
be in any political party. And.
40:18
And what do you make of the the the now sort of it there there
40:22
was cheating going on thing because that that's quite
40:24
reminiscent of Trump and the Republicans.
40:27
You know, that, oh, there's voter fraud going on.
40:29
And, you know, let's imagine there was a little bit of voter
40:33
fraud. It certainly wasn't wouldn't
40:34
have been enough to. It was a decisive.
40:36
No, this result, I mean, are you a bit concerned that, you know,
40:40
that's, that's, that was Matt Goodwin's first reaction.
40:44
The party's now referred it to the police.
40:46
Nigel Farage is talking about it.
40:48
Shouldn't they just say you know?
40:50
Well, look, Sam Coats of Sky News.
40:53
Take him if you're not. No, I think they massively
40:55
overhyped it. But no, no.
40:56
But Sam Coats, you know, just he went door to door and, you know,
40:59
he was meeting women largely from the Muslim community who
41:02
said, oh, I can't talk to you. My husband decides to vote in,
41:05
you know, in our household. Underlying that problem is a
41:09
lack of integration in our society.
41:11
And one of my reasons why I want to control immigration, one of
41:15
the reasons why I want why Reform wants to control
41:17
immigration is we used to be an integration superpower in
41:20
Britain. We were basically a colour blind
41:22
society. Control now, isn't it?
41:23
We're heading towards net 0. Yeah, but integration,
41:27
integration isn't under control. We are not an integrated society
41:30
like we used to be. The fact that you saw in the
41:33
Manchester by Election reform a way ahead with white people and
41:37
Muslim people were voting much more for greed.
41:39
We are voting in sectarian lines.
41:41
Anyone who cares about a cohesive society must worry
41:44
about that. The the, the, the actual reality
41:46
of the results did not reflect that.
41:48
As Zach was saying, you know our figures on Denton, you know, and
41:51
I was still knocking in leaving term and you know, virtually
41:54
everyone I spoke to was white and virtually everyone I spoke
41:56
to was was voting green. In fact, you know you were
41:59
talking. About your own.
41:59
Supporters there, there were, there were placards, you know,
42:01
all over these streets. So you know, the idea, you were
42:04
the people who were suggesting there's some great division
42:06
actually on the streets. People live together every day.
42:09
They go to school together every day, they share their lives and
42:13
they have different politics, different individuals in
42:15
different places. We weren't the one that were
42:18
running campaigns in separate languages with, I'm afraid, very
42:23
divisive foreign policy figures trying to separate.
42:25
Communities. What is the problem with
42:27
separate languages? I mean people.
42:28
Do I? I've done European elections in
42:30
London and put out leaflets in French.
42:33
I mean, when Mamdani did his campaigns in separate languages,
42:36
people said, oh, what a smart guy.
42:38
Well, when it happens. I wouldn't, but the reason why I
42:41
object to it fundamentally is I do believe that integration
42:45
really matters. I think to be a British citizen
42:48
is one of the proudest things you can have.
42:50
And you cannot be fully integrated into any society if
42:54
you do not speak the fluently, the language of the majority.
42:58
And So what you're doing is that there is a real integration
43:01
problem. Last word, Sam.
43:02
I mean, just on this whole question around, well,
43:07
integration and the sort of the, well, what they call
43:12
sectarianism in terms of sweeping up large groups of
43:15
people on issues like Gaza. So, so I think whenever you have
43:21
an economy that is not growing very much and it's been flat
43:25
investment, flat productivity, flat, you know, living standards
43:30
for about 15 years, the politics of division start to become
43:34
easier. You know, when you have a
43:35
growing cake, it's easier for everyone to get better at the
43:38
same time. So we are now living with an
43:40
economy which is the bastard love child of Nigel Farage's
43:43
Brexit and George Osborne's, you know, failure to invest in
43:46
productive economy. And it is going to be very, very
43:49
difficult for this government to turn it around.
43:52
It's going to take a decade. And until then, we need to hold
43:55
off the extremes who are enjoying the division, stocking
44:01
the division and trying to persuade the British public
44:04
couldn't be worse than this. And actually it could be a lot
44:07
worse than this. A flat economy is not nearly as
44:09
bad as what you'd get under populist left or populist right,
44:12
where the real economy and people's living standards would
44:14
shrink. Sam White, Natalie Bennett to
44:16
Montgomery, thank you all very much.
44:17
Thank you. And that's the forecast for
44:19
today. Until next time, bye bye.