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Did a Worm Really Eat RFK Jr.'s Brain? · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Stormy Daniels takes a stand again in
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Trump's hush money trial. Trump prepares a huge giveaway to
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Big Oil. President Biden says he won't send offensive weapons
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: to Israel if the IDF invades Rafah. RFK Jr. says
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a war made his brain. Joe Biden may be getting
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: results on his abortion messaging. And Marjorie Taylor Greene's effort
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: to ditch Mike Johnson goes down in a humiliating landslide. Later,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Federal Trade Commission Chair Lena Kahn stops by to talk
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: with Lovett about all the big moves she's made on
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: antitrust and worker protections. But first, here with me is
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: the one and only Alyssa Mastromonaco, host of our excellent podcast, Hysteria,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: former White House Deputy Chief of Staff, My coworker, longtime
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: friend for almost 20 years now. 20 years, yeah. Alyssa,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I did this. You need no
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: introduction to this audience. Welcome to the pod, and thanks
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: for doing this.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Buddy, I'm just glad to be here with you.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you. I learned that you were
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: doing this podcast yesterday.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. I was like, I've been looking forward
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: to this for a month.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Well, I knew we were doing it, but I wouldn't
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: say I was reading the spreadsheet very carefully.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Fair enough.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: It was a wonderful surprise. So here we are.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Today was stormy day. It was the second day on
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the stand. I will leave it to the very smart
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: legal experts that I follow on Twitter to assess just
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: how effective she was. But I will say we learned
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: a lot and almost certainly more than we needed to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: know about Trump. She told us about spanking him with
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: a rolled up magazine, what position they had sex in,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: and that he called her quote unquote honey bunch after
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: they were done. Frankly, this is the first time that
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I was glad the trial was not televised. Now, John
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: and Rebecca Katz talked about this some on Wednesday. But Alyssa,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I and our audience would love to know just what
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: you think about what Stormy had to say on the stand.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, so one, I feel less smart. I am definitely
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: less smart for having been tracking all this. I am troubled.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: I guess troubled's not the word. I was overly interested
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: in the fact that Trump was interested in whether Stormy
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: got residuals and whether she was unionized as a sex worker.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I'm like- Was he just figuring out how much money
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: she made? Or was he thinking about getting in on
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: the action? Does he think that he should get something
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: from it? I mean, today was truly other level, extraordinary.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: We heard Stormy talk about, or we heard reports of
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Stormy talking about whether her house was haunted with paranormal
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: activity and came to find out that it was in
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: fact just a possum.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Frankly, I don't know what's worse, a
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: ghost or possum.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's worse. And then the other thing
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: is we watched an entire– again, I keep saying watched.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: What I did was watch Jake Tapper talk about what
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: he watched. A whole defense strategy that's literally just meant
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: to keep Donald Trump from rage tweeting.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: You mean the fact that they used it– the Trump's attorneys,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: instead of trying to deal with the actual crime at hand,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: tried to call her a liar for this multiply corroborated
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: set of events.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Because Trump's like, you better show her up. You better
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: embarrass her. You better make me believe that you're working
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: for me so that I don't take to Twitter to
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: say what I really think or X, truth, whatever he does.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: You better give me something that I can take to
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Melania when this is over.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Because you can't just cop to what actually happened. Whether
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: he had sex with her or not is actually not
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: relevant to the legal case here. But obviously some of
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: his attorneys were set to try to, and very awkwardly
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: and clumsily and pretty ineffectively, disprove. So it was not
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: a great performance from his mid-tier attorneys.
• 4:05
  Speaker 6: No.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, I spoke to a smart Democratic
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: strategist who was concerned that weeks of testimony about Trump
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: having sex with a porn star... would make him seem
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: younger and more virile. What do you think? Did Stormy's
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: testimony actually make Trump seem vigorous or like a giant
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: pervy weirdo?
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a layup of a question if I ever.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Look, I want your honest opinion. I'm not trying to
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: lead the witness here.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: So here's what I'm going to say. A man who
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: we hear about in his boxer shorts and undershirt, not
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: even a t-shirt. Use of the word undershirt is so extreme. It,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: It was giving me Rodney Dangerfield vibes like every time
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: they were talking about him. And then also he just
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: kept falling asleep during the trial. So like, no, I didn't.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: My takeaway from the past week has not been that
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Trump is virile and ready to go.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Look, I am a petty man. And Donald Trump being
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: forced to sit there while gagged to confront his sexual
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: inadequacy and general awkwardness is something that I personally enjoy.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: And I think that that is a sign that there
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: is a sense of justice there. in the universe. I'm
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: kind of skeptical that this part of the trial matters
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: in any way, one way or the other. It's just, one,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: we sort of know people aren't paying a ton of
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: attention to just the fact that the trial is even happening,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: let alone what's reading the reports on social media of
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: what Stormy Daniels said on trial or watching midday cable
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: television about what she said on trial. This might be
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: different if this was televised and people could see her
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: say this and the camera pans and Trump is like
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: half sleeping, half fuming, like that could matter. Right.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Like you and I, you and I were what, like
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: sophomores in college when the OJ trial was on TV?
• 5:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, we were freshmen and sophomores. It was on TV.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Freshmen and sophomores. The verdict was our sophomore year.
• 5:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: And that was, and I mean, you've got to love it.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: We're old enough that I will cop to the fact
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: that when that verdict came out, it was on a loudspeaker.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Across campus because there was no email back then. But
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: it might be different if we could watch it. It
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: might be more riveting. But when you get the readout
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: of this very boring, gross trial, it's like, move on.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is wild that only a few years
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: after the Rodney King riots, and while people were preparing
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: for riots in the wake of the OJ verdict, however
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: it went, that the natural inclination of America's educational institutions
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: were that if you were in high school, we were
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: going to wheel, wheel in a TV so the kids
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: could watch it, or in college, announce the verdict on
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the loudspeaker. Nothing bad happened, at least where I was,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: but it's just a wild situation. I don't think that's
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: how the Donald Trump hush money trial verdict will be
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: handled in America's high schools. I don't think you're going
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: to get to watch the jury, or watch, I guess
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: in this case, Jake Tapper tell us what the jury said.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: But I think there are real political consequences for Trump
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: or potential political consequences if he is convicted. All the
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: stuff in the middle is pretty... Nothing burger?
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Not that big a deal. Yeah.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say a nothing burger. It's embarrassing to Trump.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: And it has these knock-on effects of he... The more
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: embarrassed he is, the more insecure he becomes, the more
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: he acts like a lunatic. And that has.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: That's very true. That's very true.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: But the testimony itself... No one thought Donald Trump was...
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: not a giant pervy weirdo. Like that's really part of
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: his brand. He wears it on his sleeve, right? It
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: might as well be on his hat right under MAGA.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: So it's not like new information that's going to change
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: voters' opinions, but still like, great. I'm glad we, you know,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I don't feel better knowing it, but I'm glad he
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: had to, I'm glad he has to live in a
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: world where we all know it.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: And that he has to sit there and watch it
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: all go down.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And just mutter to himself, you know, and I
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: do think one thing that is clear.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: The muttering is a real thing.
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: He was, he muttered bullshit today, I guess.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: And we know he cares about this because after the
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: witnesses were done today, his attorneys went back and asked
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Judge Marchand to amend the gag order to allow him
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: to respond specifically to what Stormy Daniels said, because some
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: of her associates had been on cable TV corroborating the events,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: and he feels like he has an obligation to talk
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: about it. And that request was denied because, as Judge
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Marchand said, he couldn't really take Trump's attorneys at their
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: word that it would be a quote unquote, low key response.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: So he will not be, I mean, he will probably
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: violate those gag orders, maybe end up in jail for
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: a night, which would be fun and make for great
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: content on this podcast, at least.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: You know, I would love that.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we will. If he goes in prison, we'll have
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: you back.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 8:35
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: On Thursday at the courthouse, Trump also went to speak
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: to reporters where he called the case a sham, but
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: he also attacked President Biden and Jewish voters. Let's take
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: a listen.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Biden is doing with respect to Israel is disgraceful.
• 8:51
  Speaker 6: If any Jewish person voted for Joe.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Biden, they should be ashamed of themselves.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: He's totally abandoned Israel and nobody.
• 9:00
  Speaker 6: Can believe it.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: What Trump was referring to was comments Biden made in
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: an interview with CNN's Aaron Burnett on Wednesday, announcing that
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: he would stop sending certain weapons to Israel if they
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: invade Rafah. Trump also posted a truth accusing Biden of
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: signing with Hamas and funding what he called the, quote,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: radical mobs taking over our college campuses. All very subtle stuff.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: both on Pod Save America earlier this week and then
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: on Pod Save the World. There's been a lot of
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: conversation about the policy implications of President Biden's decision. But Alyssa,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about Trump's response. Republicans painting
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Democrats as anti-Israel is nothing new. But what was your
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: take on Trump's attack on Jewish people who voted for Biden?
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Well, Dan, in 2017, we watched a mob of white
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: supremacist neo-Nazis march with torches and swastikas and guns. Chanting
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Jews will not replace us and white lives matter while
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: they were marching to save a Confederate statue of Robert E.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Lee.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: The end result. of this mayhem was that one of
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: their neo-Nazis drove his car into counter-protesters killing a woman.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Trump's response to that was there are very fine people
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: on both sides. And so to say that I don't
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: care what Trump's advice to Jewish people, Democrats, et cetera, is,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: is an understatement.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to delve back into the media
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: criticism that caused me to sort of stumble into a
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: feud with the executive of The New York Times this week.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: But this is a great example of the double standard
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: that bedevils coverage of Biden and Trump. If Joe Biden
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: had said anything like this, it would be a seven
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: day story. Every Democrat on Capitol Hill would be asked
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: to disavow his comments, to comment on his comments. Some
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Democrats would feel politically compelled to offer a resolution on
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: the House floor condemning Joe Biden for it. And there
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: will be nothing on the Trump side for this. We'll
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: just kind of hear it and move on. Biden will
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: take more shit and be under more pressure to denounce
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: the anti-Semitic signs held by people protesting him than a
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: single elected Republican will be to denounce something that the
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: person that they are supporting for President of the United
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: States said. And I think the point you make about
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Charlottesville is very important here because this is not an
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: isolated incidence. This is not Donald Trump just saying something
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: off the cuff in his wacky way. He has a
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: long history of anti-Semitic tropes. He has shared anti-Semitic memes
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: about his opponents, saying that they're controlled by Jews and money.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: He has dined with anti-Semites and neo-Nazis like Nick Fuentes
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: and Kanye West. He has reportedly said that Hitler did
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: some good things. Over and over and over again, he
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: does this. And there is less of a reaction from everyone,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: not just the media, but also Democrats or NLCs. We
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: are in the very tired metaphor of the Trump era.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: We are the frogs being slowly boiled in the pot.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: And it is a big deal. And it is why
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of the people who marched with him on
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: January 6th, who raided the Capitol, came from organizations with
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: histories of ties to neo-Nazis, with anti-Semitism. It is a
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: part of the movement, a very dangerous part of the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: movement that he has built in this country. And it
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be ignored.
• 12:25
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: This got overshadowed by the Israel news, but Biden also
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: used the CNN interview to drive the economic message in
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: some pretty sharp ways. Let's take a listen.
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: Why should people here believe that you will succeed at
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: creating jobs where Trump failed?
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: He's never succeeded in creating jobs, and I've never failed.
• 12:43
  Speaker 6: I've created over 15 million jobs since I've been president.
• 12:47
  Speaker 6: So we have a very different view. I look at
• 12:49
  Speaker 6: it from a physician, not being facetious, from a Scranton perspective.
• 12:54
  Speaker 6: He looks at it from a Mar-a-Lago perspective. He wants
• 12:57
  Speaker 6: to give more significant tax cuts to the super wealthy.
• 13:00
  Speaker 6: We've already turned around. Look, look at the Michigan survey.
• 13:04
  Speaker 6: For 65% of American people think they're in good shape economically.
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: They think the nation's not in good shape, but they're
• 13:09
  Speaker 6: personally in good shape. The polling data has been wrong
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: all along.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: It's pretty clear why the president is doing this. A
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: new poll from Politico shows he has work to do.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: According to that poll, of all of Biden's accomplishments, the
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act is the only one that a majority
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: of poll respondents had heard much about. The election is now,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: and this kind of pains me to say this, less
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: than six months from now. Listen, as you know better
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: than anyone else, time is a campaign's most limited resource.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's smart for Biden to spend time
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: reminding people his accomplishments, or should he be spending his
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: time talking about his plans for the future, how he's
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: going to improve people's lives, et cetera?
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Dan, is this where I say both and we move on?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, no, you have to explain yourself.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: I'm just kidding.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: You know, I often, when I write these questions, I
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: will say A, B, or C, and C is always both,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: but I took the both out for you?
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: No, of course. One, of course it's both, but it's
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump has such an easier job here because it's
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: so much easier to sell grievance than it is to
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: get gratitude, you know, which is like kind of what
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Biden is after. And I was reading something former Lieutenant
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Governor of Wisconsin, Mandela Barnes said, which is that so
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: many people in America still remember getting that $ 1, 500 check
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: that Trump demanded to sign himself, right? And so I
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: think now Biden has to, my opinion, and you know,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: I can be very, look, I'm not saying I'm always right,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: but I would say that for me, I think he
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: needs to, Biden does need to do both, but I,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: in selling the accomplishments, would get as granular as possible.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: You know, when he talks about creating the jobs, when
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: he talks about, you know, like the big sweeping things
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: he's done, I think that goes over people's heads. You know,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: people get their paycheck now, they pay their bills and
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: they don't have that much left over. And that's what
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: they know. And so I think that if I were
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Biden on this in terms of his accomplishments, I would
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: go hyper, hyper local. Pfeiffer, 82% of Americans listen to
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: AM FM radio every week.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: That cannot be true. It is true. It's 100% true.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Source that stat. I don't even know a person who
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: listens to AM FM radio.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Of course you do.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Pfeiffer. This is where I have to sit
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: and talk to you about how I'm a normal person
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: and you are an elite. You're an elite. I'm just
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: a rural girl who listens to her AM FM radio.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: While making your jam.
• 15:33
  Speaker 6: I know.
• 15:33
  Speaker 8: Yes.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Okay. I'm sorry that I took a different route after
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: we left the White House.
• 15:38
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 15:39
  Speaker 9: But back to my point is that I would get
• 15:43
  Speaker 9: all the surrogates with the list of hyper-local accomplishments that
• 15:48
  Speaker 9: he has had, whether it's talking about the fact that
• 15:52
  Speaker 9: he has capped insulin for seniors at $ 35 a month, whether.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Seniors will not have to pay more than $ 2, 000 out
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: of pocket, which, you know, that's a big deal. The
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: fact that they are getting broadband to people. I mean, Pfeiffer,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: even when we do this podcast every week, I have
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: a landline, for God's sake, and it's still touch and go.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: But when they told me that we were getting our
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: new ONT boxes because Joe Biden paid for them, you know,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: and now I have good internet speed.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: What's an ONT box?
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Listen, I can't explain how cable works, how Wi-Fi and
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: cable work to you.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: But it's faster. Joe Biden gave you faster internet. He did.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: And so I think that In addition to talking about
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: all the things he's going to do, he does have
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: to deeply explain. Like, here's something, and you might remember
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: this a little bit better than I do, but our
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: equivalent of the Inflation Act when we were in the
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: White House was probably the Recovery Act, right?
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you could go... Infrastructure.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: But in terms of things.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So to me, also, all of the roads and bridges
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: and ports that he's fixing, all the lead pipe that
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: they're getting rid of so people have clean drinking water.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I mean.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: They need signs up. We had signs. That's what I remember.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I remember the signs.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: You know what they mostly meant to people? This traffic
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: jam brought to you by President Barack Obama when you
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: were stuck on the freeway.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe. But that was before the bridges really started collapsing.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: So people might have a different point of view now.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: But anyway, that's sort of my point. I do think
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: that people need to be reminded. But when you speak
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: in sort of lofty, general, sweeping terms, people just think
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: it's rhetoric. And so I just think it needs to
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: be more granular.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's all really hard because something like less
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: than a fifth of the money from all of Biden's
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: big accomplishments, CHIPS Act, infrastructure bill, American Rescue Plan, Inflation
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Reduction Act is out the door. And they're moving at
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: record speeds. They have very smart people on it. Just
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: it takes a long time to get these projects approved,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: get people to apply for them, get them approved. get
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: shovels in the ground and all of that. And so
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the idea that people would feel the real world benefits
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: of these things that, you know, have one of the
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: jobs that were created, have one of the businesses that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: were allowed to flourish because of the new bridge or
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: the new runway or whatever else, that that would have
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: happened in two years or three years. Like that's just,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: this is not how the world works. And so that's
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: very challenging, but you can see the, you know, like
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: in Wisconsin where the president was on Wednesday, you can
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: see the place where this thing is, this new plant
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: is going to be built and can know these things
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: are going to happen. And then you even see this
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: in ads, like Biden has this healthcare ad that John
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: and Rebecca talked about on Wednesday. That's a great ad,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: but it's like saving you $ 800 a year in healthcare costs.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: And for some seniors that is absolutely happening. And, but
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: for most Americans, you hear that and you're like, I, I,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: if so, if I save $ 800, I would know it.
• 18:54
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: And so like, it has to be believable. And I
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: think his tone in this interview was pretty good. I
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: think Most of what they have been doing since the
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: State of the Union is very good. The president gets–
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: the jobs numbers are a sign of success, but they're
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: not the sign of success that people are looking for.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It's just all the polling shows that people are viewing
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: this through the prism of cost of living, right? And
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: primarily gas, groceries, and healthcare and housing are the four things.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: And the place where I think the accomplishments can be
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: helpful is they are credentialing you as someone who can
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: do something again in the future. And that's where insulin
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: and lower prescription drug costs are very helpful because that's
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: a cost issue. You got it done despite a brutal
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: political environment. And that's evidence that you can do it again, right?
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: As opposed to, because elections are not about gratitude. They're
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: absolutely not.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: No, I know.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Know. You know, they do not. And that sometimes it
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: feels like Democrats want that, right? There was, we eventually
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: pivot away from this after Dobbs, but much of the
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: messaging that a lot of House Democrats wanted in 2022
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: was Dems deliver. Right.
• 20:06
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: We gave you all these things. And it's just not, people,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: elections always have to be forward-looking, not backward-looking. But the
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: things that you have done in the past and the
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: present can help people understand what you would do in
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the future. And so that's sort of how, that's the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: mix here.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, even just the progress he
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: has made incrementally, but is still big on student debt relief, right?
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: For sure, yeah.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Like to me, that is a great, but at the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: same time, you almost wish that Democrats were as I
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: don't even know the word, but it's like, I wish
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: that when people got their debt, I have, my veterinarian
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: had her debt forgiven.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Get her in an ad.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: She also, she said that she just woke up one
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: day and she had no more debt. And I was like,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: didn't you get a letter signed by Joe Biden? Do
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like, I feel like Democrats
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: do everything on the up and up and, you know,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: we're campaigning against somebody who did things just for the appearances.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, very infamously so. Obama was presented with
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the choice in 2009 in the Stimulus Act to give
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: people a massive payroll tax cut that would just appear
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: in their taxes or to send them a check. And
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: the better economic policy, because it puts money... People tend
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: to save checks and then... And we needed people to
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: spend money in the economy. And so we made the
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: better policy decision, but no one knew they got that
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: payroll tax cut. To this day... if 1% of Americans
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: were quizzed on what was at the time the largest
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: tax cut for working class people in American history, no
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: one would pass it. So like you are correct in
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: terms of like, this is always the choice you make.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: And it's where Democrats are sometimes bedeviled by what our
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: old boss used to call the responsibility gene, right? We
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: want to do it the right way. It's not even
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: about ethics, right? It's like, what is better policy? What's
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: better for the economy? But sometimes what's good policy does
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: not necessarily overlap with the good politics part of the
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Venn diagram. The Washington Post reported today that at a
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: meeting in Mar-a-Lago last month, Trump has big oil executives
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to raise him a billion dollars. Yes, that is a
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: billion with a B. And in exchange, he promised it'll
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: be worth it for them because they'll cancel Biden's electric
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: vehicle and renewable energy policies if he wins. I imagine
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: that as we are recording this, the Biden campaign is
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: working on an ad or some other way to attack
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump about this. But how would you do it?
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Would you make it about bad environmental policy or make
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: it about Trump being a shill for big corporations?
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: So once again, I would do both.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: You're going to go both?
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go both.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Here's why. Goddammit, I phrased this question so incorrectly.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: No, but I'm giving you the breadth of my knowledge.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I want it all, yes.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: No, so one, this was literally just reported days ago.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: It was the hottest April in history. Every month since
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: June 2023 has been the hottest month on the planet
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: since we started recording these things in the late 1800s.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: So what does that mean, Pfeiffer? What does that mean?
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: What that means is that people are going to pay
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: more in their electric bills because they're going to have
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: to use air conditioning. It means produce is going to
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: be more expensive because there are going to be droughts.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: And basically, I think that it needs to be positioned
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: such that Trump is doing something. He's telling these guys
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: to raise him a billion dollars, some of which is
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: probably going to go to pay his legal fees.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: For sure. Right.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: In addition to his campaign campaign. And who's going to
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: pay the price ultimately for what he's doing? It's going
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to be the people whose vote he is seeking. So
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: that's my point. It has to be both.
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, the answer is always both, right? This is
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: always the Goldilocks theory of how you get things done
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: in the world, which is you offer people three choices, right?
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: There's one too hot, one too cold, and then one
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: just right. And C is always just right. But I
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: think that the question gets at, an important way to
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: think about politics that I think is Trump has sort
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: of scrambled our brain. Like we, like Trump is this,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: like here he is, right? He is saying anti-Semitic things.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: He's on trial right now for a crime. There is
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: someone on the stand telling us lurid and embarrassing details
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: about his sex life. He is going to do a
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: thousand other insane things between when we finish recording this
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: podcast and it posts tomorrow morning. But Maybe politics is
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: not that complicated. Maybe we've overcomplicated that. And someone being
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: a shill for big corporations has been the best message
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: in American politics for decades. And as we've sometimes lost
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: it with Trump, because we are so concerned about democracy
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: and his authoritarian bent and his racism and his misogyny
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: and his corruption and his criminality that we sort of
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: lose the forest for the trees. And here you have,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you know, this is the same thing. This happened a
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: few weeks ago where Trump had this, you know, he
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: was doing this fundraiser with all these millionaires and billionaires.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: And while he was asking them to write, in some cases,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: up to a million, nearly a million dollars in contributions
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: to him and the RNC, he was promising them a
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: tax cut, right? Like that is, nothing would send a
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: persuadable voter up in flames faster than something like that.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Here you have big oil, right? One of the most,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: at a time of high gas prices in this country,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Trump is promising big oil executives, he's promising them a
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: bunch of policies in a quid pro quo for a
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: billion dollars in campaign donations. Like, that's just a great message.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if the guy who said it is
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Mitt Romney or John McCain or Sarah Palin or Nikki
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Haley or Ron DeSantis or someone as extraordinary a threat
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: to the country as Donald Trump. That's just a great message.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: And we should just sometimes like get back to basics
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and hammer him for that. And there's evidence in polling
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: that people, for all the things they think about Trump,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: and he has some populist, and when I say populist,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: I kind of mean nationalist- credentials that other Republicans certainly
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: don't have. But his signature accomplishment, and by signature, I
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: mean kind of his only accomplishment when he was in
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: the White House, was a massive tax cut for corporations
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: and the very wealthy. And then by the end of
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: next year, he is going to have to renew that
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: tax cut, which he has pledged he would do, and
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: maybe even further lower corporate tax rates for these people
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: who he's soliciting donations from. And that could add, according
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to a recent report from the Center for American Progress,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: $ 4 trillion in the deficit. Like that seems like just
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: sometimes just like stick to the simple stuff, right? And
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: this seems like a very clear and obvious message here
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: that doesn't have to get sort of pushed through our
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: post-Trump filter. We can just do it like we always
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: did it and drive that message against them.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I'm into that.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Good, good. I like it. Okay. In some better news,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: the Biden campaign continues to hammer Trump on abortion, releasing
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: a new ad this week targeted at Latinas. And a
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: poll from our friends at Navigator Research shows that the
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: number of Americans that believe Trump opposes abortion access is
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: up seven points, and a majority believes he would cite
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: a national abortion ban. This is one of the most
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: hopeful polls I've seen in a long time. I went
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: deep on the numbers in Thursday's Message Box, a newsletter
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: that I'm sure everyone listening to this is definitely subscribed
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: to at MessageBox. I do.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: I have multiple, multiple subscriptions.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: And you are one of my favorite and most loyal readers, listen,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that. But Alyssa, I would love to know
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: what you think about this poll and what it says
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: about how the Biden campaign and Democrats should wage the
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: campaign to come.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I was heartened by today's message box when I saw
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: it at 6 a.m. Because that's not often the reaction
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: from people, right? No, I was heartened because here's the thing, Fife.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: The GOP and conservatives... try to peddle this like pastel, fillish,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: laughly bullshit version of what overturning Roe was going to be, right?
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: They're like, no, we're just going to save the world
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: from the Samantha's on Sex and the City who are
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: clearly walking around contemplating abortions in the eighth month of pregnancy, right?
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: And what the entire country has seen is that this
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: is some actual handmaid's tale bullshit. And that what Trump
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: promised was that he would appoint judges that would overturn
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Roe or justices rather that would overturn Roe. And they did.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: And what has happened since then? It's not just this, like,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know if people who supported this, who aren't,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: you know, part of the Susan B. Anthony foundation thought
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: that this was going to be simple or easy or
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: not as gruesome as it actually is, but it is.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: And what he has done has created gynecological deserts across
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: the country. where women have to drive hundreds of miles
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: to see an OBGYN. What this overturning, that was his goal,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: his stated goal of overturning Roe. So he cannot run
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: away from this. No one should let him run away
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: from it. That's why I am, I was so happy
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: to see this poll because I do think it's starting
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: to sink in, is that he has now given way,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: overturning Roe has given way to some of the most
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: psychotic ballot initiatives across the country. when people want to
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: stand up and say, oh, but we, there are exceptions
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: for the life of the mother. Well, let's talk about
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: how that's played out for a second. What has happened
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: is that exceptions for the life of the mother or
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: for rape or incest, right? Okay. Well, in most of
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: these states where this has taken effect, you have to
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: go to the police. You have to report your rapist,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: which most people, most women, when they're raped, it's not
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: the first thing on their mind. And in terms of
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: the life of the mother exception, well, so many of
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: these laws are so fucking restrictive that the doctors want
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: no part of this. That's why we have gynecological deserts,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: because OBGYNs are fleeing states with these laws. Because here's
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: the question. Here's the question, Pfeiffer. if you're a doctor,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: how close to death does a woman have to be?
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: How far into her sepsis does she have to be
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: for a doctor to say, you know what? She is
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: so close to dying. I can't be sued by any
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: of these sort of vigilante laws or any of these
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: other laws that have taken effect. So I am glad
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: The poll to me reflects kind of what we have
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: been seeing in states that have tried to codify abortion
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: into their state constitutions. So not only do we see,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: you know, petitioners getting hundreds of thousands of signatures, but
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: we're seeing them in states that have had votes passed
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: by well over 50%. So I think for Democrats, this
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: is a good issue. I am glad that the messaging
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: has taken hold. I mean, even in a lot of
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: the polling among Republicans, they're like, we think it should
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: be legal. This is getting a little out of hand.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: And so I was happy to see it all. I
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: felt I was happy, Pfeiffer.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Good, good. That was the intended goal when I put
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: pen to proverbial paper. One of the reasons why I
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: think it's just important to mention this is This race
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: has felt stuck in mud for a very long time.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: All these huge things keep happening. And maybe Biden's picked
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: up a point here, or maybe he's picked up a
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: point there, but it's still the same. And this is
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: particularly true on the issue of abortion, where this is
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: commonly believed and fully understood as to be why Democrats
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: won in 2022. In 2023, we've succeeded in these ballot
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: initiatives all across the country that have happened since then, Kansas, Ohio, Michigan, etc.,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: And there have been these huge moments that have really
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: broken through in the last few months, right? The Alabama
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: IVF decision, the Florida abortion ban going into effect, the
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: 1864 Arizona law that banned abortion based on a law
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: that was created, a law written before women had the
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: right to vote or Arizona was even a state. Donald
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Trump announcing his position that he's for, he's like, all
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: these things happened and it felt like it was stuck
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: in mud. But polling at this stage of the race
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: is a lot like a duck on water, right? It's
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: very calm up top and very frenetic underneath. And this
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: poll shows that underneath, even if the horse race hasn't
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: shifted yet, even if Donald Trump hasn't taken a huge
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: hit in his approval rating, which has taken a huge
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: hit in his favorable rating, which is down a little bit,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: that things are shifting underneath and that voters are coming
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: to see Donald Trump as a real threat to abortion
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: access in a way that they had not before. Even
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: though he is the person most singularly responsible for Roe
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: being overturned, He doesn't seem like your traditional crusading Phyllis Schlafly,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to use your example there, anti-abortion crusader. He's a guy
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: right now on stage in his hometown of Manhattan, New York,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: on trial for crimes emanating from an affair with an
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: adult film star. He doesn't code in a way in
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: which voters commonly think about the people who are going
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: to come take their rights and freedoms. But the Biden
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: campaign hammering it, other Democrats hammering it, the press doing
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: a good job of reporting on the consequences of these
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: bans that are in place or being proposed has made
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: a difference. And one of the things that's really interesting
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: in this poll that I get into in the message
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: box is you've seen real movement with Democrats and Biden
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: 2020 voters or the groups who make up the Biden
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: 2020 coalition. I think that's the right way to say it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: But is independents have not really moved yet. And there's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: a huge swath of independents. that we still can go
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: convince about Donald Trump. And so there's like, it's not
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: just that we've made gains, that there's still a lot
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: of potential upside there to go get over the next
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: six months. So we've made real progress in there. You
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: can see a path to Trump taking on even more
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: water on this issue. And so I think that is
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: very encouraging. And it feels like as we sit here today,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: less than six months before the election, but a little
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: encouragement can go a long way.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I agree with that.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Okay. A couple of quick things before Lovett's interview with
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Lena Kahn. First, Marjorie Taylor Greene's effort to oust Speaker
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Mike Johnson came to an embarrassingly quick conclusion. On Wednesday afternoon,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: she finally called up her long-promised motion to vacate. Here's
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: how excited people were in the room. For what purpose
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: does a gentlewoman from Georgia seek recognition?
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: I seek recognition to give notice of my intent to
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: raise a question of the privileges of the House. The
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: form of the resolution.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Is as follows.
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: Declaring the office of Speaker of the House Representatives to
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: be vacant. This is the Uniparty for the American people watching.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Gentlelady will suspend. The Uniparty, aka members of the House
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: with an even remote interest in governing, voted to kill
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: the resolution 359 to 43, and only 10 Republicans voted
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: with Green.
• 34:53
  Speaker 6: Alyssa.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: How much did you enjoy Marjorie Taylor Greene face-planting for
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: all the world to see?
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, so there was a lot to enjoy here. First,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: when the Republicans, I think it was Mike Lawler and
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: a couple others, went out to do a little press
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: avail after that whole mishigas on the floor of the house,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: and they called her Moscow Marge. You just love that.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: When they start name-calling each other, I am here for it.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: And you know, Fife, you know when she went home
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: last night, she was like rage lifting. She was like,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: that P90X was... She's sore this morning. That's all I
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: have to say. She is humiliated. The blood vessels were
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: like bulging out of her face. I enjoyed it.
• 35:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, anytime something embarrassing happens to Marjorie Taylor Greene,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: that's a victory for democracy. Anytime... Most of these Republicans
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: spend most of their time pretending like she is a
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: member of the Republican Party in good standing. They're largely
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: scared of her, of what influence she has. They help
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: her raise money. Because of the rage lifting.
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah. I mean, and so to see them
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: turn on her is enjoyable.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: It's delightful.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I will say, I will say it's just– It is
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: really interesting that Donald Trump not only truthed about this,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: but he also cut some sort of weird video from
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: somewhere today.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: What?
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Talking about how much he loved her and how she
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: was going to be a big part of the Republican
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Party and the MAGA movement for a long time. But
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: he did not think that they should be going down
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: this path. So I don't know what the deal is there.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's because– but Trump is sticking with her on
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: this in a way in which he does not stick
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: with other people, right? She– He did not want her
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: to do this. He made his wishes very clear. She
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: did it anyway. And instead of doing what he normally does,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: which is just turn on that person and possibly send
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: a violent mob to attack them, he went out of
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: his way to praise her. It's just a very interesting
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: dynamic about what it is, how he finds her useful,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: what it is he is afraid of from her. But
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: there's just a very interesting part of that relationship that
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I think could use a little more scrutiny.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: There's, you know what it reminds me of? There was
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: like this scene from the movie How to Lose a
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Guy in 10 Days when Kate Hudson's like, I love you,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: but I don't like you right now. And I felt
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: like that's Trump with Marjorie Taylor Greene.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's right. But to make it very
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: clear that I love you. Yeah. Trump is not someone
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: who feels a need often to say nice things about people,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: especially when they've done him wrong and he does it
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: for her. And it's just, it's notable, I'd say.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 37:39
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Finally, independent candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. disclosed that he
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: believes that in 2010, a worm entered his skull and
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: ate a portion of his brain. Yes, you heard that right.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: The anti-vaccine conspiracy theory peddling candidate claims to have had
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: a literal brain worm. Frankly, a plot twist we all
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: should have seen coming in this campaign. And in case
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: you doubt this story, RFK Jr. went on Ari Melber's
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: show on MSNBC to put to rest any and all
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: doubts that he is in fact operating on a diminished brain.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Here he is talking about pardoning January 6th rioters.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: President Trump said he was going to end that war.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Right, but the question is about those pardons. Would you
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: be open to that or not?
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: What do you mean? Listen, I'm an attorney. I was
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: a prosecutor. You were, I think, a legal aid attorney.
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: I was a prosecutor. I would never say in advance—
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: running for political office, who I'm going to pardon.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: But that's what he's doing. And you're running against him.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: And I'm asking you as a journalist, where you stand
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: on that.
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: I'm not going to do that.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: So that will sound to people like you're leaving that
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: door open. You don't need to. Do you want to
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: leave that door open? I'm not going to.
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: Leave it open or closed. I'm not answering until I
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: look at people's cases.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Alyssa, I'm not even really sure what to ask about this,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: but does the brain worm story kind of explain everything
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: you needed to know about RFK Jr.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: It's not just the brain worm. There was more to
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: the story that I feel is not being adequately covered.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: May I read from the New York Times?
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Please, please, please.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Quote, about the same time he learned of the parasite,
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: he said, he also was diagnosed with mercury poisoning, most
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: likely from ingesting too much fish containing the dangerous heavy metal,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: which can cause serious neurological issues. Dan, he had a
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: brain worm. and mercury poisoning. And according to doctors who
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: have treated parasitic infections and mercury poisoning, said both conditions
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: can sometimes permanently damage brain function. So the thing I'd
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: like to point out here, Dan.
• 39:45
  Speaker 7: Please, no.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: I waited with bated breath to see what comes next here.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you. In around 2010, sometime between 2010, 2014, there
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: was a study done. Harvard Business Review got into it.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: And it was about how when there is a job
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: and qualifications are listed, men will look at the job
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: qualifications and be like, if they hit 50, 60%, they're like, okay,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: I'm good. Women take qualifications as actual qualifications and want
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: to hit 100% before they throw their hat in the ring. Dan?
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: This I believe. It all checks out. I'm waiting to
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: see how this ties to the brain worms.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Sheryl Sandberg got into it with Lean In. All of
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: these publications have written about it. Dan, only a man
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: with a brain worm would be like, you know what?
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I have a brain worm. And I think the next
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: best thing for me to do is run for president
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: of the United States. Dan, how many states has he
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: made it on the ballot? Like five?
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: That's a good question. There's a bunch of states where
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: he claims to have reached the requisite numbers of signatures,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: but those signatures have not been through the full process yet.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: So I don't know the exact number, but I am
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: operating under the assumption.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Either way, he's on some ballots.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we should operate on the assumption that he is
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: going to be on the ballot in all of the
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: major swing states.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: So I just wanted to use this moment of brain
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: worms and mercury poisoning to tell women, please run for office.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: You're good.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just, when we talk about the fate
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: of democracy and the fragility of our political system, it
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: really does come down to the fact that the future
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: of our country, the future of democracy, the balance of
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: world power is going to really boil down to the
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: number of votes received by A guy with a famous
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: last name who had a brain worm and believes every
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: conspiracy under the sun. Yeah. That. Right? That's where we are. Mm-hmm.
• 41:56
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Just what a- And who, if he had been president
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: during COVID, would not have gotten a vaccination approved for us.
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump actually today has been truthing. And I think also,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: I don't fully know what was the format for all
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: these video clips I keep seeing of Donald Trump standing
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: in front of a podium just saying a bunch of
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: random things, but he- He attacked RFK Jr. today, not
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: on the brainworm, but he called him a fake anti-vaxxer
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: because I think Trump is becoming concerned with perhaps some
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: good reason that RFK Jr. may be cutting into both
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: with his brainworm and his anti-vax views into Trump's base.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: I really had to break that down. I was like,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: fake anti-vaxxer. What does that mean? Oh, okay. I get
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: it now. He's not anti-vaxxer enough.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, he's lying about his anti-vax views. I think that's
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: what he's saying. But there's a lot of double negatives
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: in there. Okay, one quick thing before we go to break.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: If you're listening to this, you already know the stakes
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: of the 2024 election, and I know you want to
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: make a difference. Vote Save America's Organize or Else campaign
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: is here. If you remember our programs from 2020 and 2022,
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: we divided into teams, first by state, then by region.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: This year, we're taking it up a notch. It's the
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: classic rap battle of East versus West. Alyssa, have you
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: picked a team?
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: East, East, come on.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: You joined with me and Tommy on the East team?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: I have to be East.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, perfect.
• 43:16
  Speaker 6: Well, welcome.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: You chose the right side. Organize or else will connect
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: you with opportunities that work for you and your preferences
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: and schedule. We're going to help race this up and
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: down the ballot. VSA will track each team's calls, texts,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: door knocks, shifts, and at the end, the highest achieving
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: team could win the biggest prize of all. Yes. They
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: want me to say this.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Continuing democracy.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Continuing democracy.
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: You know what?
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: I have to tell you, the losing team will also
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: get that. We may have failed to game up by this.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: It's a win-win.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: It's a win-win for you, for democracy, for everyone. Go
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: to www.votesaveamerica.com slash 2024 to get started. This message has
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: been paid for by Vote Save America. You can learn
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: more at votesaveamerica.com. This ad has not been authorized by
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: any candidate or candidate's committee. When we come back, FTC
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Chair Lena Kahn.
• 44:12
  Speaker 8: Joining us now, the chair of the U.S. Federal Trade Commission,
• 44:15
  Speaker 8: taking on corporate monopolies and anti-consumer practices, making a bunch
• 44:18
  Speaker 8: of enemies and friends along the way. Lina Khan, welcome
• 44:22
  Speaker 8: to the pod.
• 44:23
  Speaker 7: Great to be here.
• 44:25
  Speaker 8: So you've led an FTC that has been far more
• 44:28
  Speaker 8: willing to go after corporate consolidation, anti-competitive practices. brought dozens
• 44:33
  Speaker 8: of actions against mergers. It's also brought you relentless criticism
• 44:37
  Speaker 8: from old school pro-business, anti-regulation conservatives. Literally moments ago, another
• 44:44
  Speaker 8: piece in the Wall Street Journal described your leadership as
• 44:46
  Speaker 8: FTC's failed experiment. Yet among some Republicans, especially those who
• 44:51
  Speaker 8: have embraced kind of Trumpy populism, you've been getting a
• 44:54
  Speaker 8: lot of praise. Matt Gaetz said, whose endorsement anyone would
• 44:58
  Speaker 8: covet likes what you're doing.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Senator J.D.
• 44:59
  Speaker 8: Vance said you're one of the few people in the
• 45:01
  Speaker 8: Biden administration doing a pretty good job. How do you
• 45:05
  Speaker 8: explain that divide amongst conservatives?
• 45:10
  Speaker 7: It's a great question, and it really goes back to
• 45:13
  Speaker 7: the origins of anti-monopoly law and the anti-monopoly tradition, which
• 45:19
  Speaker 7: really emerged around the founding of And there was a
• 45:23
  Speaker 7: clear recognition that in the same ways that concentration of
• 45:26
  Speaker 7: political power threatens core liberties and is anathema to the
• 45:32
  Speaker 7: idea of a democracy, that you similarly needed checks and
• 45:36
  Speaker 7: balances against economic power and economic concentration. Because a society
• 45:41
  Speaker 7: in which people are getting coerced and bullied in their
• 45:45
  Speaker 7: economic transactions is one where people are not going to
• 45:48
  Speaker 7: feel free in a fundamental way. And there has long
• 45:52
  Speaker 7: been recognition across the political aisle on both sides that
• 45:57
  Speaker 7: monopoly power threatens these core liberties. I think for conservatives,
• 46:01
  Speaker 7: there's a tradition of recognizing how overarching state power can
• 46:06
  Speaker 7: threaten liberty. And again, they are recalling how in some
• 46:10
  Speaker 7: instances when you concentrate corporate power, it can too threaten liberties.
• 46:15
  Speaker 7: And so that's where we see some of those core alignments.
• 46:20
  Speaker 8: So- One of the things you've been going up against,
• 46:23
  Speaker 8: you've had several big wins when you've brought suit against mergers,
• 46:27
  Speaker 8: but you've also had some defeats, is you're taking on
• 46:31
  Speaker 8: a conception of how antitrust law is supposed to work
• 46:35
  Speaker 8: that has held sway for a number of decades, kind
• 46:37
  Speaker 8: of a conservative theory about when it's appropriate to go
• 46:41
  Speaker 8: after a monopoly. Can you talk just a little bit
• 46:45
  Speaker 8: about what you're trying to do with, say, a case
• 46:47
  Speaker 8: like Activision Blizzard and what you're seeing that you don't
• 46:51
  Speaker 8: think the courts are seeing.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Happy to.
• 46:54
  Speaker 7: And, you know, it's important just to step back and
• 46:57
  Speaker 7: recall how we got here. So at the end of
• 47:00
  Speaker 7: President Obama's term, we began to see a growing concern
• 47:04
  Speaker 7: about concentrated power and a lack of competition in the economy.
• 47:09
  Speaker 7: And President Obama actually issued an executive order late in
• 47:12
  Speaker 7: his tenure that was directing agencies to identify ways to
• 47:16
  Speaker 7: promote competition. And it didn't get a lot of notice
• 47:19
  Speaker 7: at the time, but it was a really important precursor
• 47:22
  Speaker 7: to the historic executive order on competition that President Biden
• 47:26
  Speaker 7: then issued the summer after he took office. And that
• 47:29
  Speaker 7: executive order basically acknowledged that for the last 40 years,
• 47:34
  Speaker 7: the way we've been doing antitrust and the way we've
• 47:36
  Speaker 7: been doing competition policy really got it wrong. And as
• 47:40
  Speaker 7: a result, we see consolidation across our economy, across sectors
• 47:45
  Speaker 7: in ways that is really hurting the American public, right?
• 47:48
  Speaker 7: Consumers are paying too much all too often. They don't
• 47:52
  Speaker 7: have enough choice. Workers' wages have been declining and haven't
• 47:56
  Speaker 7: kept up. Small businesses and entrepreneurs have been getting locked
• 48:00
  Speaker 7: out of the market. And so President Biden, issued a
• 48:04
  Speaker 7: very clear directive to turn the page. And the shift
• 48:08
  Speaker 7: we've been seeing in antitrust is part and parcel of
• 48:11
  Speaker 7: a broader reorientation across economic policymaking, where this administration has
• 48:17
  Speaker 7: been shutting the door on a failed approach of trickle-down economics.
• 48:21
  Speaker 7: And the shift we're seeing in antitrust is part and
• 48:23
  Speaker 7: parcel of that. It's really motivated by and responding to
• 48:27
  Speaker 7: just the basic reality that competition has not kept up.
• 48:31
  Speaker 7: We've instead seen more and more consolidation. And as a
• 48:34
  Speaker 7: result of that, people are hurting. It means that people
• 48:38
  Speaker 7: are having to drive hundreds of miles to go to
• 48:41
  Speaker 7: the nearest hospital as opposed to tens of miles because
• 48:44
  Speaker 7: after hospitals merge, they oftentimes close local facilities. All too often,
• 48:49
  Speaker 7: people can't afford life-saving medicines because of all sorts of
• 48:52
  Speaker 7: patent tricks the big pharma companies are undertaking. And just
• 48:58
  Speaker 7: sector after sector, you see the same basic dynamic And
• 49:01
  Speaker 7: so that's where both the public will for this shift
• 49:04
  Speaker 7: is coming from.
• 49:06
  Speaker 8: But so this is what I'm trying to understand. So,
• 49:09
  Speaker 8: you know, what you just described is a mix of
• 49:11
  Speaker 8: all kinds of ways in which these kind of mergers
• 49:13
  Speaker 8: can hurt people, right? That business, you know, there's efficiencies,
• 49:18
  Speaker 8: what they would call, right? And so they're a hospital
• 49:20
  Speaker 8: here and they run a much bigger hospital here. Some
• 49:24
  Speaker 8: of these hurt individuals, right? They hurt consumers. So what
• 49:28
  Speaker 8: I'm trying to understand is, are there cases where you
• 49:31
  Speaker 8: believe this conservative idea that all that matters is consumer
• 49:35
  Speaker 8: prices is not being applied properly fairly or are you
• 49:39
  Speaker 8: saying is it that like the law needs to be
• 49:41
  Speaker 8: applied in a different way that like how it impacts
• 49:43
  Speaker 8: an individual consumer, how their prices are affected isn't the
• 49:47
  Speaker 8: only thing that should be looked at?
• 49:50
  Speaker 7: So the law that Congress passed says we need to
• 49:54
  Speaker 7: protect competition and we need to prevent undermining of competition
• 49:59
  Speaker 7: or undermining of fair methods of competition. And there's a
• 50:03
  Speaker 7: basic question about how do you measure competition? Companies can
• 50:07
  Speaker 7: compete over.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Price, right?
• 50:09
  Speaker 7: They can try to lower the price and provide you
• 50:11
  Speaker 7: a better deal. But that's not the only dimension on
• 50:15
  Speaker 7: which companies compete, right? And especially as we see markets evolve,
• 50:20
  Speaker 7: as digital services have come online, there are additional dimensions
• 50:25
  Speaker 7: of competition that we need to take into account, including,
• 50:28
  Speaker 7: for example, privacy. Oftentimes, people are not paying with dollars
• 50:32
  Speaker 7: for a lot of these services. They're paying with their data.
• 50:35
  Speaker 7: And so competing on privacy is an important dimension that
• 50:39
  Speaker 7: we need to take into account. Companies also compete on
• 50:43
  Speaker 7: dimensions like innovation, which oftentimes is something that happens over
• 50:47
  Speaker 7: the long term rather than short-term price effects. And look,
• 50:50
  Speaker 7: the ironic thing is that even over the last 40 years,
• 50:54
  Speaker 7: if you want to say that the focus was on
• 50:56
  Speaker 7: short-term price effects, there is a wealth of evidence and
• 51:00
  Speaker 7: scholarship that shows that even on those metrics, antitrust has
• 51:04
  Speaker 7: not kept up. The prices in all of these areas
• 51:08
  Speaker 7: have much higher than they should have been without some
• 51:10
  Speaker 7: of these mergers going through. And so you could say
• 51:12
  Speaker 7: this paradigm has failed on its own terms and that
• 51:15
  Speaker 7: the shift we're doing is now just responding to the
• 51:19
  Speaker 7: realities that you see in the marketplace.
• 51:21
  Speaker 8: Yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at, because
• 51:24
  Speaker 8: you've recently brought an action against this merger between Albertsons
• 51:27
  Speaker 8: and Kroger. And as it seems to be the case
• 51:31
  Speaker 8: every time, the two companies trying to merge say this
• 51:34
  Speaker 8: will be a huge benefit to consumers. And the FTC says, no,
• 51:38
  Speaker 8: when these companies merge, the consolidation will mean they get efficiencies,
• 51:42
  Speaker 8: but they won't pass the savings on to customers. They'll
• 51:45
  Speaker 8: reap more profits and even could be in a position
• 51:48
  Speaker 8: to raise prices. How do you litigate that question when
• 51:51
  Speaker 8: it's all in the future?
• 51:53
  Speaker 7: It's one of the hardest parts of the antitrust regime.
• 51:57
  Speaker 7: where you're having to predict what's going to happen when
• 52:00
  Speaker 7: mergers go through. And it's why Congress said the agencies
• 52:03
  Speaker 7: don't have to predict that with entire certainty, but it's
• 52:07
  Speaker 7: really based on a whole set of different types of evidence.
• 52:11
  Speaker 7: This case in particular is still being litigated, so I'm
• 52:14
  Speaker 7: limited in what I can say about it. But the
• 52:16
  Speaker 7: complaint lays out how there's been decades of consolidation in
• 52:21
  Speaker 7: the grocery sector, that consumers have lost out. And our
• 52:25
  Speaker 7: complaint alleges that in this instance, workers would also lose
• 52:29
  Speaker 7: out if this deal goes through. And so you look at,
• 52:33
  Speaker 7: you know, what are the company's documents telling you? And
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: at the end of the day, what incentivizes companies to
• 52:39
  Speaker 7: pass on benefits to consumers is if they're actually having
• 52:43
  Speaker 7: to jostle with one another, right? If they're afraid that
• 52:46
  Speaker 7: if they don't deliver you those benefits, they're actually gonna
• 52:49
  Speaker 7: lose business to their rival. If you allow them to
• 52:51
  Speaker 7: buy that rival up, There isn't going to be that
• 52:54
  Speaker 7: same incentive to give you.
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: The better deal.
• 52:57
  Speaker 8: There are also a ton of examples where companies that
• 53:00
  Speaker 8: want to merge, in particular because their executives will reap
• 53:04
  Speaker 8: an enormous personal benefit from a merger, they make all
• 53:09
  Speaker 8: kinds of claims about how it's going to benefit consumers.
• 53:11
  Speaker 8: Those benefits never materialize. Do you believe the government should
• 53:15
  Speaker 8: be more active after a merger has potentially gone through
• 53:19
  Speaker 8: to make sure that they're honoring their commitments to.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 53:26
  Speaker 7: I mean, if firms are making certain commitments or promises
• 53:31
  Speaker 7: about why they're merging and the benefits that are going
• 53:33
  Speaker 7: to be delivered, and then they go through with the
• 53:35
  Speaker 7: merger and actually then to do the exact opposite, which
• 53:39
  Speaker 7: unfortunately is something we see all too often. be it,
• 53:43
  Speaker 7: you know, commitments about how they're going to be hiring
• 53:45
  Speaker 7: more people only for them to go ahead and fire people,
• 53:48
  Speaker 7: commitments about how they're going to be honoring people's privacy
• 53:52
  Speaker 7: only for them to go ahead and then renege on
• 53:54
  Speaker 7: privacy commitments. That's absolutely a problem. And that's actually why
• 53:59
  Speaker 7: under the Biden administration, the FTC has been much more
• 54:03
  Speaker 7: skeptical of some of these types of promises and settlements.
• 54:07
  Speaker 7: Because if you are structurally allowing a merger to to
• 54:10
  Speaker 7: eliminate competition in a way that will allow that company
• 54:14
  Speaker 7: to harm people, them just signing a piece of paper
• 54:17
  Speaker 7: that says we promise not to harm people is not
• 54:20
  Speaker 7: really enough if they're not going to have the incentives
• 54:22
  Speaker 7: in the market to make sure people are still getting
• 54:25
  Speaker 7: a better deal.
• 54:26
  Speaker 8: Are there examples, and I would doubt you could say
• 54:29
  Speaker 8: what they are, but are there examples that you see
• 54:31
  Speaker 8: without naming them where you think it might be valuable
• 54:34
  Speaker 8: for the to look at those mergers and say, wait,
• 54:38
  Speaker 8: these were approved under false presenses and potentially should be unwound?
• 54:42
  Speaker 7: Absolutely. There are a whole bunch of examples where in hindsight,
• 54:47
  Speaker 7: certain mergers that were allowed to go through seem to
• 54:51
  Speaker 7: have been a mistake in terms of the merger ended
• 54:54
  Speaker 7: up resulting in consumers getting a worse deal, workers being
• 54:59
  Speaker 7: worse off, and the market as a whole being much
• 55:02
  Speaker 7: more consolidated and much more closed off so that entrepreneurs
• 55:07
  Speaker 7: and small businesses can't enter. Just to give an example,
• 55:10
  Speaker 7: we hear a lot of concerns in the ticketing industry.
• 55:14
  Speaker 7: This is one that's in the Justice Department's wheelhouse, not ours.
• 55:17
  Speaker 7: You hear concerns from consumers, right? Anybody who's tried to
• 55:20
  Speaker 7: buy a ticket online has experienced just how infuriating that
• 55:24
  Speaker 7: experience can be, where the company can seem like it's
• 55:26
  Speaker 7: too big to care. You've also heard a lot of
• 55:29
  Speaker 7: concerns from artists. and from concert venues about how they
• 55:33
  Speaker 7: sometimes are getting bullied or coerced in the marketplace because
• 55:37
  Speaker 7: now you have a single dominant entity that's able to
• 55:40
  Speaker 7: dictate terms. So we see concerns there, but we see
• 55:44
  Speaker 7: concerns in the airline industry and the telecom industry, across
• 55:48
  Speaker 7: the healthcare sector, where all too often after you see
• 55:52
  Speaker 7: dominant firms grow through consolidation, they don't have to work
• 55:56
  Speaker 7: as hard to get people's business.
• 55:59
  Speaker 8: But legally, could those... Could the government come back and say,
• 56:02
  Speaker 8: we are going to take a look at this and
• 56:03
  Speaker 8: see if it should be unwound? Or is that is
• 56:06
  Speaker 8: once it's done, it's done?
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 56:08
  Speaker 7: The government has the ability to say these mergers went through.
• 56:13
  Speaker 7: But in hindsight, we believe they were illegal. And one
• 56:17
  Speaker 7: of the cases that the FTC is currently litigating makes
• 56:20
  Speaker 7: exactly this argument. The Facebook case that was filed actually
• 56:24
  Speaker 7: in the during the tail end of the Trump administration was.
• 56:27
  Speaker 7: alleges that Facebook's acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp were actually illegal,
• 56:32
  Speaker 7: and they allowed Facebook to illegally maintain its monopoly rather
• 56:37
  Speaker 7: than have to compete. And the remedy that's being sought
• 56:40
  Speaker 7: includes divestiture, which would mean they'd have to sell those
• 56:43
  Speaker 7: entities off.
• 56:44
  Speaker 8: Right. But those companies then, after mergers complete, very quickly
• 56:47
  Speaker 8: get to trying to get things pretty entangled so that
• 56:51
  Speaker 8: they have an argument that it can't be undone, right?
• 56:55
  Speaker 7: Sometimes they make those arguments, and that's ultimately for a
• 56:57
  Speaker 7: court to decide.
• 56:59
  Speaker 8: So one thing that came up recently is the FTC
• 57:04
  Speaker 8: banning non-compete agreements.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: Look, I am.
• 57:08
  Speaker 8: Somebody relying on producers to make this podcast every day,
• 57:13
  Speaker 8: and I don't think they should be able to work
• 57:15
  Speaker 8: anywhere else. What are we going to do about that?
• 57:18
  Speaker 8: You've really made our jobs harder. We're really trying to
• 57:21
  Speaker 8: lock them in.
• 57:23
  Speaker 7: Unfortunately, too many employers have had that attitude, right? I mean,
• 57:26
  Speaker 7: non-compete started off in the boardroom, but they've proliferated across
• 57:30
  Speaker 7: our economy. So you have janitors, security guards, fast food workers,
• 57:36
  Speaker 7: but also doctors, healthcare workers across the board, engineers, tech
• 57:41
  Speaker 7: workers that all too often are governed by a non-compete,
• 57:44
  Speaker 7: which means that they cannot easily switch jobs. They can't
• 57:48
  Speaker 7: easily start their own business if it involves competing with
• 57:51
  Speaker 7: their former employer. And after the FTC put out this
• 57:55
  Speaker 7: proposal last year, we got over 26,000 comments. 25,000 of
• 58:00
  Speaker 7: those were in support of the proposal. And we heard
• 58:03
  Speaker 7: just devastating stories about how non-competes had forced people to
• 58:07
  Speaker 7: stay locked into abusive jobs, had forced people to uproot
• 58:11
  Speaker 7: their lives and their families. We heard from doctors who
• 58:15
  Speaker 7: had been serving rural America about how a non-compete means
• 58:18
  Speaker 7: that If you want to switch employers, you have to
• 58:21
  Speaker 7: leave the state entirely and abandon your patients, which can
• 58:24
  Speaker 7: be contributing to a lack of health care being available
• 58:28
  Speaker 7: in parts of the country. And so these are systemic
• 58:31
  Speaker 7: problems that we've seen. And we were really pleased to
• 58:34
  Speaker 7: recently be able to finalize a rule that would end
• 58:37
  Speaker 7: non-competes in employment contracts.
• 58:39
  Speaker 8: This is about people, about competition. And in the FTC's
• 58:42
  Speaker 8: press release, make a lot of arguments around how many
• 58:45
  Speaker 8: new businesses it could produce, how much increased earnings it
• 58:48
  Speaker 8: could result in. You also spoke recently about what happened
• 58:53
  Speaker 8: after the NVIDIA ARM merger was called off in part
• 58:59
  Speaker 8: because FTC tried to block it. There is this idea
• 59:03
  Speaker 8: that an active FTC or that an aggressive FTC that's
• 59:06
  Speaker 8: trying to protect competition is anti-business. Can you talk a
• 59:11
  Speaker 8: little bit about just about why that's wrong?
• 59:14
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that couldn't be further from the truth, right? I mean,
• 59:17
  Speaker 7: the FTC's mandate is to promote open, fair, and competitive
• 59:22
  Speaker 7: markets where people can get a fair shake. And that
• 59:25
  Speaker 7: includes consumers. It includes workers. but it also includes.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Businesses, right?
• 59:30
  Speaker 7: I mean, if you're a business, if you're an entrepreneur
• 59:32
  Speaker 7: and you have a good idea, you're able to get
• 59:35
  Speaker 7: financing for that idea. What you want is to be
• 59:37
  Speaker 7: able to enter the market and really compete and be
• 59:41
  Speaker 7: able to get a foothold. And unfortunately, all too often
• 59:44
  Speaker 7: we hear that startups and entrepreneurs and small businesses are
• 59:49
  Speaker 7: are not able to get a fair shake. And they're
• 59:51
  Speaker 7: actually being squeezed out of the market, not because customers
• 59:55
  Speaker 7: don't like them, but because they're being muscled out by
• 59:59
  Speaker 7: one of the existing monopolists. And so we hear a
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 7: lot of concern from everyone ranging from independent pharmacists and
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 7: independent grocers who all too often are being squeezed out
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 7: by the big players or because they're not getting a
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 7: fair shake. We hear a lot of concern from startups
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 7: and founders and entrepreneurs, including in Silicon Valley, about how
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 7: all too often the fate of their business is not
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 7: a function of how popular their service is, but instead
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 7: is a function of the whims of one of the
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 7: existing giants that is controlling access to who can reach
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 7: customers and who can get through the market. And so
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 7: these are fundamentally issues that hurt all businesses, except unless
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 7: you're one of the monopolists that is benefiting from your
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 7: status and incumbent and you can lock out everybody else.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 8: Speaking of incumbents, you were on The Daily Show. Jon
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 8: Stewart mentioned that Apple told him not to interview you
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 8: for his podcast, The Problem with Jon Stewart. Were you
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 8: surprised by that? Do you have any theory about why
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 8: that might be?
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 7: You know, I think historically we've seen that when companies
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 7: amass a lot of power, and especially when they amass
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 7: a lot of power over who gets to be heard,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 7: who gets to be seen, who gets to speak in
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 7: the kind of marketplace of ideas, that they can use
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 7: that power in abusive ways, that they can use that
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 7: power to kind of pick winners and losers, and that
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 7: that doesn't serve our democratic society, right? I mean, if
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 7: we believe in the First Amendment, if we believe in
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 7: a healthy marketplace of ideas, a clear precondition of that
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 7: is making sure that you have a marketplace where many
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 7: voices can get heard. And so the concentration of power
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 7: can be really hostile to those basic ideals.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 8: So I was thinking about your case against Amazon and
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 8: your effort to take on these gigantic companies that have
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 8: amassed so much power in our society. And I was
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 8: trying to understand.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: what to.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 8: Your mind success looks like? That is success simply attacking
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 8: the most egregious examples of corporate consolidation? Or do you
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 8: believe it's possible for us to actually kind of build
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 8: something that has much more competition, much fewer industries controlled
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 8: by two, three, four firms, if you're lucky? Or is
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 8: the hope that is the best we can do at
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 8: this point trying to mitigate the damage done by 40
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 8: years of monopolistic and anti-consumer practices?
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 7: It's an important question. And I think there's a short-term
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 7: component of this, but also a long-term. And over the long-term,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 7: there's no doubt that we have to be aiming for
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 7: ensuring that our markets are open and fair and competitive.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 7: But I think just to step back, a deeper... issue
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 7: that we see right now is the government reasserting itself
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 7: on behalf of working families and making very clear that
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 7: the government will stick up for working families, including when
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 7: they're being pushed around or abused by law-breaking corporations. And
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 7: I think that at a very basic level is so
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 7: essential because all too often we see that people can
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 7: get disillusioned with government if they feel that in their
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 7: day-to-day lives They're not able to afford their medicines. They're
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 7: not able to easily switch jobs. And that their fate
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 7: ultimately is controlled by these distant giants. And it really
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 7: contributes to people feeling a lack of power and a
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 7: lack of autonomy over their lives. And so the government
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 7: coming in and saying, this is not an inevitability, right?
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 7: We can actually fight back against these law-breaking corporations and
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 7: make sure that our economy is one that's actually serving
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 7: the American people. is an incredibly important shift. And it's
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 7: one that we're seeing across the administration right now. And
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 7: so I hope, you know, we want to win the
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 7: cases we're bringing. We're really pleased with the wins we've
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 7: already had, including, you know, our actions resulting in inhaler
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 7: manufacturers dropping the price that Americans will have to pay
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 7: from hundreds of dollars down to just $ 35. But at
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 7: a deeper level, it's really important that the public see
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 7: what it means for government to be fighting for them.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 8: Alina Khan, thank you so much for your time.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 7: Thanks for having me.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Alina Khan. Thanks to Alyssa for co-hosting with me today.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: We'll talk to you all on Tuesday.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:04:46
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