Latest / The Layback Podcast / Niko Leontarakis, CSCS, Director of Pitching at RPP (Ep. 51)

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Niko Leontarakis, CSCS, Director of Pitching at RPP (Ep. 51) · The Layback Podcast

0:00
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Layback Podcast.
0:02
Joining us today is a very special guest in my mind, seeing
0:06
how our relationship dates back to really the COVID days where
0:12
we first got on the phone talking about some craziness
0:14
with Flexpro Grip, his recruiting journey.
0:18
I wanted him to come play for me when I was coaching in college,
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but it's none other than Nico Lanta Rakis.
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Nico is currently the Director of pitching at RPP up in
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Paramus, NJ. Y'all have probably heard us
0:31
mention Nunzio Signore A Nico works alongside him doing great
0:35
things up in the New York, New Jersey area, really getting
0:39
dudes to throw nasty shit and get way better.
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So I'm excited to talk to Nico about his journey from player to
0:46
coach in everything he dealt with really across his career.
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So Nico thanks a ton for coming on.
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Looking forward to diving in today.
0:53
I really appreciate you having me man.
0:55
I'm glad that we were able to reconnect on something special
0:58
like this. Definitely, man.
1:01
Well, I guess let's take the steps back.
1:03
Let's start with the initial connection, and maybe that's a
1:07
good spot for you to jump off talking about your own career.
1:10
I would love to hear about your journey from high school to
1:13
college ball because I know it wasn't the smoothest, that there
1:17
was a lot of UPS, a lot of downs, but that's probably
1:20
ultimately what led you to this position now.
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So just take it away. Yes, Sir, I'm.
1:26
From South Florida, that's where I grew up playing high school,
1:28
boy, I lived there from I'm was born in Jersey, moved to South
1:32
Florida and grew up there pretty much until college.
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But I started off as a freshman at New Jersey Tech.
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Then I transferred over to, after the fall semester,
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Tallahassee Community College, where I was drafted by the
1:45
Baltimore Orioles 40th round in 2017.
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I had taken a gap year over at Crusty Sports Performance Work
1:53
and trained under Eric and Brian Kaplan, who's now with the
1:56
Diamondbacks. And Shane Ryan.
1:58
Just learned so much information kind of about the body.
2:02
Close from a. Throwing standpoint mobility,
2:04
strength training, and from there I went, finished up in
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junior college at Palm Beach State in Lake Worth.
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From that point, it's kind of where I met Nunzio.
2:14
I graduated from Palm Beach State, I went to RPP to train as
2:18
a summer athlete and I was there for three months and I fell in
2:21
love with the place. I have met and maintained
2:24
relationships with athletes there like that I'm still
2:26
friends with to this day. And that was all the way like
2:28
dating back to 2019. And after that, I went to Post
2:32
University in Waterbury, CT and COVID hit in the spring of 2020.
2:37
I was dealing with on the nerve issues for a while.
2:40
So I ended up getting on the nerve decompression
2:43
transposition surgery in July of 2020.
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I was rehabbing and I was talking a bunch of schools.
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And that's kind of how we came into contact was video that I
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had posted on Twitter. You had contacted me via there.
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We spoke on the phone extensively about me coming over
3:01
there and I really want to go play at Eckerd.
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But transcripts and it was really my I wasn't transcripts
3:07
honestly, it was my credits that kind of just put me in a
3:10
position where I was going to be so far set back that I kind of
3:13
just bit the bullet and just started taking more classes
3:15
online to graduate from post. And I ended up committing to EKU
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and that summer of 21 and I finished out my college career
3:24
there played my last year and got my master's in exercise
3:27
science. Had a pretty good team, pretty
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good, really good record 38 and 20.
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But after that it was Trent Thunder.
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I pitched there when they became a semi pro team on the back half
3:37
of of the draft league and that was pretty much it.
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That was it from a playing standpoint.
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And once I was done, had contacted Nunjo contacted me
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about becoming an assistant pitching coach over.
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Here at. RPP and then from March of 23
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on, the rest has been history. I've been the director of
3:56
pitching there and had a lot of commits to built a lot of great
3:59
relationships with a lot of great kids, my bosses, my Co
4:02
worker. It's a blast being up here.
4:05
Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking us
4:07
through that whole journey. We're going to take a couple
4:09
steps back because it sounds like you were really on your way
4:15
to stardom in a sense, finishing that first year at TCC, having
4:20
an opportunity in the draft, but ultimately foregoing it.
4:24
A 40th round doesn't even exist anymore for those who might not
4:28
be familiar, where that kind of draft slot would would have put
4:32
Nico. But you ultimately made the
4:34
decision to train. So if you could walk us through
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that now, just being faced with all these different directions
4:42
you could have gone in your career, ultimately you went the
4:46
development route. I was 18 year old kid.
4:48
I was a freshman. I was extremely young.
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I would not have thrived in that environment.
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I honestly, I just wasn't ready. I was very young and
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projectable. I was maybe 175 lbs at the time,
5:03
at 6-4 at the time that I've got drafted and I was up to 88.
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And that was pretty much just The thing is like in a few years
5:10
we think you could pan out. And at that point I knew that my
5:13
velocity from the right side topping 88 miles an hour was not
5:16
consistent enough for me to go get pro hitters out and also
5:20
have a chance of advancing anywhere outside of becoming a
5:23
free agent. That was pretty much a decision
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that was there and I was training at Cressy at the time
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of that draft and I knew from there once TCC ended, I was
5:33
going to take a year off and just go train at Cressy
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regardless. But like that kind of made that
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more real for me in the sense of.
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There's a lot. Of things I need to get better,
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I needed to put on weight, I needed to throw harder, my stuff
5:44
needed to get better, and I needed to get a lot stronger.
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Maybe stepping away from your own experience, I'm sure you
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deal with a ton of athletes that are in a similar position that
5:55
are maybe faced with a hard decision of playing, searching
5:59
for innings, looking for the best opportunity, or going all
6:03
in on development. There is no right or wrong here
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necessarily, it's all case dependent.
6:09
But do you think there maybe were pros or cons to the
6:14
decision you made? You obviously talk about the
6:16
steps you needed to take to advance in your career to
6:20
hopefully give yourself a better shot at professional baseball
6:23
down the line. But what do you think maybe you
6:26
gave up or what were other opportunities that you could
6:29
have looked at? Was there another junior college
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that you could have gone right to, maybe have gone back to TCC?
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What other paths do you think you could have ended up going
6:39
down and what do you think could have resulted from those
6:42
potentially? I mean, I think the only really
6:45
other option I would have had, I didn't have anything kind of
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like lined up and backed at that point.
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I was really dead set on taking the year off in training.
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But. It would have been justified
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because before the NCA kind of just changed the rules around,
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we had the was it the four to four rule, which is if you went
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from a four year to a two year. School within the same year you
7:05
had to graduate from your two year before you advanced.
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So it's not like I could have went to D2 or D1 or an NIA
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school. It would have been another Juke
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I would have had to have went to.
7:15
But honestly think the only thing I really passed up was
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just getting live reps Like I still went and had live ABS when
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I when I trained, but it wasn't like me going and getting 2030
7:26
innings in the spring season and throwing a bunch of innings in
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the fall. I think that the trade off was
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more innings to more time spent focusing on building my body,
7:37
building the frame, moving better, throwing harder.
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So that next time that I would kind of go out and compete
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again, that I would be in a much better spot than I was when I
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was a freshman. So when you took this gap year,
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was there specific goals in mind, whether it was performance
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based, whether it was certain metrics or was it just trying to
7:58
give yourself a better opportunity at a future school?
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I mean, I, I knew the, the two main things that I knew I that
8:06
needed to kind of happen from there was I needed to weigh over
8:09
£200. I needed to get to 200 lbs first
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and then maintain that. And then the other thing from
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there was just sit in the low nines because I was a mid upper
8:17
80s right-handed pitcher and that wasn't going to cut it for
8:20
kind of like what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go from
8:23
that point in time. So it was, there was a bunch of
8:27
different things that we did and the best translation that I had
8:29
from anything really was me getting stronger and more
8:32
explosive in the gym and kind of like how that made me a better
8:35
athlete, like on the mound. And I had to put a lot of time
8:38
in on the eating. And it's different for me now at
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26, when I think about the way that I lift and the way that I
8:45
eat and I have to talk to my athletes about it because I
8:48
don't look the way I did when I played anymore.
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I have a lot of kids that struggle with the eating aspect.
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And I and I say you guys want to go play Division One baseball,
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but you guys aren't willing to spend time and actually finish
8:58
your plate every single time. There's a lot of guys that are
9:01
bigger, throwing harder and they're giving themselves better
9:05
opportunities by taking those necessary steps, which is simply
9:09
just eating and being diligent with your time in the gym and
9:12
throwing and mobility and, and those things.
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But I knew I needed to become more well-rounded in the sense
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of an athlete and as well as a pitcher before I was going to go
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back into a competition setting. I'm sorry for the crappy pun
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coming at you here, but did you have any appetite for training
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or a good diet, good sleep prior to that gap year that you took?
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Like what did training look like for you in high school?
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Well, I that's the thing as I, I was always just a hard gainer.
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My metabolism was was extremely fast when I was younger, but I
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was training at different gyms in South Florida, but they were
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primarily football gyms that had like baseball components.
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So I got to see from a young age I was exposed to baseball guys
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in football gyms versus me going to places like Crassy and then
10:03
RPP and seeing the way that they go about their strength
10:08
training, they go about their mobility routine, like how much
10:10
time they spend on like evaluating those things versus
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just getting strong and just kind of trying to throw around a
10:17
bunch of weight. That was kind of where I was at
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from 1415 on until I took my gap.
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I got to custody when I was 18, turning 19, and once I was
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there, I was kind of mind blown at the fact of, wow, there's 2
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completely different sides that I was exposed to it.
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That's kind of where I think I needed to understand.
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My perception of training as an athlete was this one way, and I
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was never exposed to anything else.
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So when I went to Cressy it was. Just.
10:49
Super eye opening. I hear you.
10:51
That makes sense. It really can be, as you said,
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an eye opening moment or almost feels illuminating in a sense if
11:00
you've never seen how baseball players can train to really best
11:06
benefit the career, like really focusing on rotational work,
11:09
different things like that. I know obviously in gym now, you
11:12
guys have a ton of tools for that, whether it is as simple as
11:16
Med balls or advanced as Proteus or different force plates or
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different things that you can do to actually look at output.
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So I'm sure you felt like a kid in the candy store back in even
11:28
2019 when you stepped away for a bit to switch from Olympic
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lifting or just like dead lifting a house to then actually
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focusing on producing force on a Kaiser machine or something like
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that. Yeah, we, when I was at Crusty
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back then, they didn't have the, I was there when they were in
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Jupiter. And then later on they ended up
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getting the Proteus when they switched to Palm Beach Gardens.
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I was there at the first spot over here in Florida.
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But yeah, it was a bunch of just raw strength of trying to just
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dumbbell bench the crib or pull a bunch of weight off the
11:59
ground. And it wasn't me doing arm care
12:02
stuff while I would work out or adding like plyometrics that.
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It wasn't part of just a Sprint day that I would have like at
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one of those gyms. Right, Yeah, you like your
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hiding's, your lateral jumps, different kind of boundary.
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I I can even speak on just from what I've seen from you and
12:20
trying to recruit you as an athlete, you are an athlete, but
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were you always this athletic and it was just about putting
12:29
strength around it or did that develop with your time in the
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gym? I would like to say that I was
12:35
athletic when I was younger, but the way that I was built, I was
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a very tall, lanky kid. I mean, when I was a freshman in
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high school, I was. About 5-10, almost 511, like 120
12:46
lbs. So there it was just a lot of
12:49
moving pieces, nothing really synced up.
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I had heavy feet when I would run and my arm action was not
12:54
good. But getting in the gym and
12:57
putting on the necessary strength, like getting some
13:00
muscular tension and they're putting on more size, actually
13:05
put me in a position where when I would jump, there'd be some
13:09
force behind it. When I would throw a metaball,
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there'd be some force behind it and like I could actually start
13:14
moving more weight for where I was at.
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And then once I, I was probably right after, right after my
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summer at RPP was where I think my athleticism took a huge turn
13:27
because I was that summer. I was not to say I didn't get
13:30
more athletic at Cressy. Both places I was just training
13:34
fast and my plyometrics were quick and it was something that
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I wasn't exposed to at a younger age.
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And if I was, I wasn't advanced enough to be able to accept and
13:46
transfer force and to getting into the next position and being
13:49
able to stabilize that. I hear you.
13:51
Yeah, that makes sense. And I want to jump ahead just a
13:55
little bit to some of your experiences now at post.
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I know you had some weird like foot or ankle injury during a
14:02
conditioning drill, which I think preceded the ulnar nerve
14:08
thing in your elbow, correct? So if you can now shed some
14:12
light on now this kind of downward experience that you had
14:17
during your time at post, obviously getting hurt during
14:20
conditioning never sounds good. Certainly couldn't have been
14:24
fun. But I'm guessing now, after
14:27
going through all this training, putting in so much work to give
14:30
yourself an opportunity to get back on a field and compete
14:34
again, Forget about COVID for now, But all of a sudden getting
14:38
hurt doing something that wasn't even like a baseball activity,
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How did that affect your psyche? It was a complete turn around
14:47
because that fall I'd hit 96 for the first time and the day
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before that, the day before I got hurt, oddly enough, which
14:55
was January 26th. I was the day Kobe Bryant that
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passed that 25th. We had one or two affiliate
15:02
clubs come to our facility where me and obviously my guys were
15:06
throwing live and like I had hit 95 that day and it went from
15:10
that to the next day injuring my foot or I guess it was my ankle
15:17
running bases on a Sunday. I think it was a Sunday or a
15:20
Monday afternoon or whatever, whatever the day was.
15:23
And that day kind of changed my life as an athlete, but I didn't
15:31
and it wasn't the easiest, but I didn't realize like now being in
15:35
a in a coaching position that I am and being in a leadership
15:38
role where I am like how big of a blessing that was for me long
15:43
term. Because we have a lot of multi
15:46
sport athletes up here in jersey and there's kids that are
15:48
getting injured playing basketball, which I think is
15:51
just frowned upon by every coach on the nation for baseball
15:53
players as there's guys getting hurt playing basketball.
15:56
And I've had to sit and kind of put my arm around the kid and
15:59
like and talk to them and kind of share my story on what I did
16:04
and how I rushed back from that. And then I was already dealing
16:08
with the on your nerve issues prior to the 96.
16:11
That was kind of a thing that was just like on and off.
16:13
But once I messed up my my left leg, my left ankle, I couldn't
16:18
feel myself at the ground even with the ankle brace and tape.
16:21
So my arm went my velocity dropped and I couldn't really
16:26
throw. I couldn't throw hard anymore.
16:27
Obviously I became extremely weak.
16:29
I couldn't throw hard. And it was went from being like
16:32
this was the greatest I've ever been as an athlete to this is
16:37
the worst I've ever been in college.
16:40
The honesty getting the elbow surgery kind of coming back.
16:43
I was, I think the biggest thing for me that changed, I think two
16:48
things that changed my life was the injury that I had at post,
16:51
But I ended up getting a job at a sports performance facility in
16:57
South Florida. And while I was rehabbing, I
16:59
became a strength coach full time.
17:01
And I loved it so much that I was nearly willing to just walk
17:04
away from playing. And like I'd hit 94 in my rehab
17:08
pens and I was in AI was in a pretty good spot, but I was I
17:11
was just infatuated with helping people and coaching people.
17:15
And those two things together put me in a spot where I was
17:20
like, I'm going to go, I'm going to go play my last year EKUI
17:24
went there, got my masters and exercise in sports science.
17:27
And I probably to this day am a friends with as many of
17:31
classmates as I had there as I was.
17:34
That I am. Baseball players on my team
17:36
because it was, it was no joke trying to get that in one year
17:40
playing and it gave me better perspective on how rewarding the
17:47
game can be. And my coach at Coach Pro
17:50
Authority KU, always had a quote from Maya Angelou.
17:53
If people forget what you say, people forget what you do.
17:55
People will never forget the way you make them feel.
17:57
And that was something for me that I was kind of transitioning
18:03
college baseball ending knowing the battle scars that I took
18:07
when I was younger and earlier my baseball career to get to the
18:10
spot that I was like, this is my last year playing and just
18:13
trying to mentor as many of the young guys as I could because I
18:15
knew moving forward from there, I'm kind of starting all over
18:19
again. Once you graduate high school,
18:20
when you're a college baseball player, there's like a new clock
18:22
that ticks. It's you're playing career until
18:24
it's done. And then you got to reach and
18:25
you got to figure out what it is you want to do again.
18:29
And that was kind of where I was at, unfortunately.
18:32
You know, Nunzio took a chance on me.
18:34
He remembered me as a college athlete.
18:35
He he did my assessment back then and he finally got to be a
18:39
really great fit for him. Fast forward now, about 2 1/2
18:43
years of me being an RPP. I've been put in a spot where
18:47
I've got to use all of my adversities and my battles and
18:50
my struggles as a slow throwing right-hander as a high schooler
18:55
in South Florida and kind of showing these kids like you're
19:00
at, you're all right where you're at.
19:02
Like you had to understand what your environment is.
19:04
And then also being exposed to throwing all the time because of
19:09
the warm weather. And then how important a real
19:12
structured throwing program with with the D load phase and not
19:16
everything just be like, let's just get on the mound and just
19:18
grip and RIP everything. That covered a lot.
19:21
There's no question. That's fanned a ton of time and
19:25
it was obviously a bit of an emotional roller coaster for
19:27
you. But one question that popped up
19:30
in my mind there was, was that the first time that you thought
19:35
of yourself as potentially being able to pursue the coaching
19:39
role? Once I got to Cressy at a young
19:42
age, I got to know a lot of the interns that kind of came in
19:45
there since I was in there year round for about two years.
19:47
So I got to meet a lot of people, learn a lot of stories
19:50
and learn why they were doing those things.
19:52
And I remember talking with people that had just got their
19:55
CSCS or that were looking to get it and they were talking about
20:00
how hard the exam was and all the information they wanted to
20:02
study for. And I remember back then as a 19
20:04
year old kid, I'm like, man, there's, there's no way I, I,
20:06
I'm ever going to take that. And now last, last October, I
20:10
went and got it. So I think from there.
20:14
And then I became a travel coach for a, for a good travel program
20:18
in Florida. Back then they were called the
20:20
FTB Rockets. And I was like an assistant
20:22
pitching coach for the 14 and 16 new teams.
20:25
I was there kind of just like helping out and.
20:27
They made me fall in love with it from that standpoint because
20:30
I liked having the Big Brother like mentor type of relationship
20:35
with the kids versus it just being like completely strict.
20:39
It's completely military versus giving these kids a safe space
20:44
to communicate with me, like feeling like they can be
20:47
creative and they can be themselves and they can be great
20:51
without worrying about the hammer cracking down on them.
20:55
That was a great child organization that I was a part
20:57
of after the injury and became the strength coach.
21:00
I, I knew then and there that I switched my mindset from I'm
21:05
going to go get like an MBA to I'm going to get a master of
21:09
exercise science and then I'm going to just go in a, in a
21:11
coaching. I originally was just going to
21:13
go into strength coaching after after EKU or before that.
21:18
I was like, once I'm done, I'm going here to not coach
21:22
baseball. I'm going here so that when I'm
21:24
done, I can go be a strength coach somewhere.
21:26
But I got to work some mysterious ways.
21:27
I became an assistant pitching coach and then now the director
21:31
of pitching. And you know, I'm in love with
21:33
baseball just as much now as I was when I played at my best
21:37
times. Yes, for sure.
21:39
And then maybe a funky question in here.
21:44
I mean this as a sincere compliment, and I trust that you
21:48
can find it as a compliment. I want to know when you found
21:52
your inner nerd on the baseball side.
21:55
So far we've talked about kind of the playing career, pushing
21:59
hard as a player, strength training, but we could flip to
22:02
some of the other content you've produced, other podcast episodes
22:06
that you've done, and you've talked about hip anatomy or seam
22:11
shift wake or different things like that that are actually
22:14
impacting physics or anatomy and Physiology of an individual.
22:19
Where did that kind of get in the mix for you?
22:22
I was picking up different pieces as an athlete at Cressy
22:25
and as an athlete at RPP, but I was the kid that threw hard and
22:30
one in college, like on the and JUCO and then that post where I
22:35
would look at a rap Soto for velocity and spin rate and think
22:39
that that was the end. They'll be all like.
22:40
I didn't. I didn't really look at other
22:43
metrics much, but my nerdy side kind of came on kind of bridging
22:49
the gap between strength training and the body and like
22:52
bridging that to pitching and Nunzio had Nunzio had a huge
22:56
role in that for me because I was fascinated.
23:00
We've been doing strength training for such a long time
23:03
before I'd come to RPP and I even, you know, did our
23:05
programming as a college athlete and understanding where if I see
23:10
somebody lacking from a mobility standpoint, just like in the
23:13
standard assessment on the table where he could be deficient on
23:16
the mounds from a mechanic standpoint.
23:18
So like had the pitcher and he's got limited right ankle
23:20
dorsiflexion, there's a chance he's not going to be able to get
23:22
and it was glued effectively. So kind of being able to cross
23:25
things out and kind of like circle things and understand
23:28
there's a cause and an effect to everything.
23:30
And learning also how strong these kids are and how explosive
23:34
they are and kind of how that turns into them being more
23:38
effective on the mouth. I think I went full nerd on
23:42
understanding the body and the uniqueness of everyone's
23:46
delivery before I went on the the pitch grips I had a decent
23:51
feel for. But other pitcher coaches we've
23:54
had now and my partner Matt Hartshorn, he's he's the man.
23:57
We've spent a lot of time, me and him kind of talking about it
24:01
as well as working with all of our kids in showing them
24:05
effective grips, what it's supposed to do, not kind of be
24:07
being anything and throwing things the right way.
24:09
And then kind of how that plays to their arsenal at making
24:13
everything about the individual and not making everything cookie
24:16
cutter. Like not everybody needs a
24:18
sweeper or not everybody needs a 12/6 curveball.
24:22
Arm angles are different, body positions are different,
24:24
strength and frames are going to be different for everybody.
24:27
So making it kind of all about them getting better insight from
24:33
mobility, strength and power from that standpoint and really
24:38
getting to know the kids and kind of building a relationship
24:41
with them probably is where I've seen the best jump.
24:44
Like last night, I even for an example, I had a kid that hit 90
24:48
miles an hour for the first time as a senior in high school as a
24:50
UNBC commit. And I had him two winters ago
24:54
when he was a heavier set kid with braces, topic 72.
24:57
And I told him as a sophomore, I was like, I think you're going
24:59
to throw hard one day. And he didn't believe it.
25:01
And now two years later, the kids up to 90 miles an hour is
25:04
not heavyset anymore. The kid grew.
25:07
He's now like 6-1 or six two. It's unbelievably rewarding to
25:11
do what I do. And I just like that.
25:14
I'm just constantly learning out here.
25:16
Like every stone we're trying to unturn.
25:18
We're trying to make everything better.
25:19
We're not trying to put too many things on the menu, but we're
25:21
trying to put as many positive things for the kids without
25:25
watering it down as we can. Let's dive in on the assessment
25:31
process a little bit and then developing a plan for an
25:35
individual. So if I'm coming to you as an
25:39
athlete for the first time, what is that going to look like for
25:42
me? How are you going to take me
25:46
today, the date of this recording to where I want to go?
25:51
If you know that we have a, let's call it AA12 week window
25:55
like a standard like winter break or summer.
25:59
OK, so you've come in, you get a mobility and strength assessment
26:03
done. That part doesn't really involve
26:05
me out one of our strength coaches or none Joe himself
26:08
would are taking that. But where I'd go to evaluate
26:11
that is I look at previous injury history and I look at
26:14
what was sufficient and what was insufficient.
26:17
And they would come in the Nets, they would throw in front of me,
26:21
said pitcher would throw in front of me, warm up, get on the
26:23
mouth. They'll take video of him front
26:25
and slow MO and from there I would conduct the mechanical
26:28
analysis on the kid, see what he did well, see where he lacked
26:31
and try to see if there was any pieces that I could see from my
26:35
end that I could tie mobility and strength together to Bay.
26:39
This is why he didn't get it was glute or This is why there was
26:42
rib flare at foot plant. And then give him correctives,
26:46
throwing drills, water bag DNS drills as well as Clio drills
26:50
that we would use for him to correct the deficiencies in his
26:55
delivery. And then at that standpoint, app
26:58
out a 12 week throwing plan for the pitcher so that he
27:04
understands that there's structure and there's days that
27:06
things kind of need to be met. OK, Now maybe taking a slight
27:10
step back from that, more globally when it comes to these
27:13
assessment processes, I know there isn't any
27:16
one-size-fits-all to any of this, but are there certain
27:20
flaws or shortcomings that you are seeing most often?
27:25
I'm assuming strength is a large deficit for the majority of the
27:29
high school athletes, so maybe let's nitpick a little bit and
27:33
try to go beyond that. Is there usually like a certain
27:36
movement pattern or something that you see a lot of
27:38
individuals struggle with? I mean, I, I would say the tight
27:43
pecs and tight lats is very common.
27:46
And that would say probably that from a mobility standpoint and
27:49
from a movement on the mound standpoint, it would be a tie
27:53
between like a muscled up arm action or guys crashing forward
27:58
because they don't know how to hold their backside.
28:00
We have, I'm not gonna say that the name of the school, but we
28:03
have a bunch of athletes from, you know, different high schools
28:06
in Jersey. And there's some that we just
28:08
call it Crash You because the way that they're kind of the way
28:11
that they're kind of taught at their schools is to push off the
28:15
rubber. So it's not really as much of A
28:18
school. I would say it's more of, I
28:19
guess like a league or a travel program or what, because there's
28:22
a lot of kids up here that kind of have that same issue where
28:25
they're just jumping off the mound and just kind of getting a
28:28
little ahead of themselves way too early.
28:30
OK, so when an athlete is jumping off of the rubber, what
28:36
is generally breaking down or what then is the athlete unable
28:42
to accomplish? Is it or struggle with rotation?
28:46
Is it arm timing? What are you normally seen as
28:49
the effects of that general flaw?
28:52
It would be almost everything you just said they would.
28:55
They would disconnect from the back foot, from the rubber
28:57
early, lunging forward. All their weight is on their
29:01
front knee and their knees inflex their inflection and they
29:05
now have to play catch up with the rest of their body.
29:08
The way that their trunks going to rotate and the liming of
29:11
their arm unraveling and it's going to have to become shorter
29:15
a little bit, maybe hitchy to kind of get up and get into a
29:17
position where they can deliver the ball in the zone.
29:22
Inconsistency in command is some of the biggest.
29:25
And of course, velocity because you're not holding any tension
29:28
back from the force that you produced earlier in the throw.
29:30
You take the rubber band and you stretch it out and then you
29:34
pretty much just bring it here and then you let it go and then
29:36
it's really not doing anything. So learning how to leverage that
29:41
is key. Now, sticking with this example,
29:44
kind of getting into a case study, you've obviously had
29:47
athletes that have met this example before.
29:51
What are some things maybe that you would program for this type
29:55
of individual? Would be a series different
29:57
water bag and and plyo drills that we would use to correct a
30:02
throw, whether it be like a step behind or a step back drill or
30:07
something that is promoting back foot connection to the rubber
30:11
and like vertical force production like driving down
30:14
into the ground and kind of using the back leg as an anchor
30:17
instead of trying to use it by the spring too early.
30:20
OK, so now Nico, we we go through that case study a little
30:26
bit. I'm curious, I guess going a
30:29
little bigger picture, what are things that you feel you want to
30:34
dive into research wise next on your own, you've taken this deep
30:38
dive on strength training and your ability to tie it into
30:41
pitching. What do you think advances your
30:44
career or interests you from a learning perspective?
30:51
That's a, that's a good fucking question.
30:53
Now I got to, I got to think about this.
30:56
I think it's, I don't want to say it's just what I'm
31:00
researching or anything like that.
31:02
It's kind of like I I'm excited for it because like the game is
31:05
slowly trending back in this direction and educating my
31:09
athletes on it kind of early. The often fantasized about
31:14
sweeper for every single high school kid and college kid in
31:18
the nation. Like that is everyone's end all
31:21
be all. Like I got to have a sweeper.
31:22
I want something that's going to break 30 inches.
31:24
I want something that has 3000 RPMS.
31:26
Like in reality, I think gyro sliders are going to be there.
31:31
I think they're back now and I think they're going to be back
31:34
more than ever as guys are throwing harder because guys can
31:38
throw those harder and it looks the most like a heater.
31:41
So of our advanced kids or advanced high school and our
31:45
advanced college guys showing them their arsenals with
31:48
fastball breaking ball or fastball change a big breaking
31:51
ball and kind of bringing something close to that, like
31:55
zero line, something that kind of bridges the gap between
31:58
breaker and heater and something that's between heater, the
32:01
newer, smaller, harder breaking ball and the change up guys are
32:05
now able to sit back on the sweepers.
32:08
Like when it first kind of got put into the game, it blew
32:11
everybody by storm. Everyone was like, what is this?
32:14
Swings and misses were skyrocketing.
32:16
But I think more and more guys are able to make adjustments to
32:19
it if guys are obviously not executing them properly.
32:22
But that's that's a pitch the, you know, gyro, slider, small, a
32:27
cutter, whatever we want to call it.
32:29
Like that's a pitch that is you're going to generate a ton
32:33
of swings and misses. You know, me learning on my own
32:35
is also me educating these kids as well.
32:38
Like ultimately they need to know their bodies the best and
32:41
they need to know their stuff the best.
32:42
I could always do it like when they're with me, I'm like, hey,
32:45
man, just shut the brain off. Just throw out.
32:47
Let me do the thinking for you. I have the iPad here.
32:50
I'm watching your mechanics. I'm watching your delivery.
32:52
But when they're done throwing on them their breakdown, this is
32:56
what it was. This is what you looked like
32:58
today mechanically. And like, this is, these are the
33:00
steps we need to take moving forward from a mechanic
33:03
standpoint so we can start making pitches move more.
33:07
And then from a mechanic standpoint, so we could start
33:09
executing stuff more in the zone.
33:12
OK. So a lot of where your mind is
33:15
going or what you want to get into next is Arsenal design and
33:19
kind of trying to stay ahead of hitting trends.
33:22
That seems to be pretty common with pitching.
33:23
Coaches is just trying to stay ahead because hitters are always
33:27
trailing and then ultimately the hitters are going to tell us
33:31
what is successful on the mound. Absolutely.
33:35
Hit and play, whether it gets barreled, any of that.
33:38
The hitter is the ultimate feedback.
33:39
Your your take now is gyro. Slider is on the comeback.
33:45
I think so. I think that there's there's so
33:48
many pitchers in professional baseball now that have a bigger
33:52
breaking ball. They have a sweeper and then a
33:54
small slider. They have a cutter and a slider.
33:57
They have something that moves less, that's they're throwing
34:00
harder, and then they have something that moves more that's
34:02
a little bit slower. I love that you said that
34:05
because I was just on a conversation the other day.
34:08
Episode actually just came out at the day of this recording.
34:12
Mason Fioli, who pitched in the Padres organization, works with
34:16
connected performance that he thinks the 12/6 breaker is on
34:20
the way back. Just something that's a little
34:22
more on a vertical plane of movement as opposed to
34:26
horizontal. I agree with that 100%.
34:28
That's that like the whole gyro slider thing that my partner and
34:32
I have been talking about, We think that the game is going to
34:34
go back to being vertical again. Guys are back spinning heaters,
34:37
guys are throwing small sliders and then guys are going to have
34:40
big NS breaking ball. It's like it's it's it's on the
34:43
way. Let's go down this rabbit hole
34:45
for a minute. We talked about how hitters are
34:48
going to show pitchers what's ultimately successful.
34:51
It is a game of trends and we're constantly swinging back and
34:55
forth. So how can you from a coaching
34:58
position be on trend? How can you kind of predict
35:04
what's coming? Is there certain things that you
35:06
try to look into statistically or is it just really being a
35:10
student of the game to make sure your athletes are equipped with
35:14
the knowledge and the information to be successful?
35:17
I think it's both. I think, you know, I get to
35:19
speak with our hitting guy at RPP constantly and we had a
35:22
double leg guy with the Pirates. We have another guy that's
35:25
playing in the Frontier League and I'm getting to watch them
35:29
take hacks. And I'm talking with them about
35:32
what they're kind of sitting on when they're going and facing a
35:34
high velocity thrower or what they're waiting for, what
35:38
they're looking to see when it comes to a guy that's got better
35:41
stuff and the velocity isn't as premier.
35:44
Understand the mechanisms of swinging and just rotating
35:47
period. And then it goes to obviously
35:50
hitting trends. You know, our guys hitting balls
35:52
harder, home runs are up or averages up.
35:55
And then the last piece is just really making the kids the
35:58
student of a game. Like I would say like they're
36:00
pitches that say a pro org or someone grading out a slider for
36:06
somebody. It could grade poor because
36:09
whether it's velocity or movement profile or whatever,
36:12
but if they're throwing it in game and they're getting
36:16
positive results from it, I wouldn't deem that a bad pitch.
36:21
I would make them still throw that because you're getting
36:23
positive results. Like if you're throwing a slider
36:27
and someone had a pitch grade scale from 1:00 to 10:00 on
36:31
terms of 10 being thrive in the big leagues and one being it's
36:35
going to flop and the sky is throwing an 83 mile an hour
36:38
slider and it's great as a four, but opponents are hitting sub
36:43
100 on it. Like why would I mix that pitch?
36:46
Because someone's deeming it not legit.
36:50
Like that is very legit. It's getting guys out.
36:52
Like, obviously you throw it a little bit harder, of course,
36:55
but I think that and these kids need to understand, they need to
36:59
understand their misses and they need to understand where their
37:02
stuff needs to be to be effective in the zone.
37:05
I'm glad you brought up the pitch grades and kind of stuff.
37:11
Plus in a sense, Austin Marchisani and I on a previous
37:15
episode dove super deep on that and he kind of brought me into
37:20
the light of why pitch grades aren't necessarily the best
37:26
definitions of what is successful.
37:29
It is just what that model biases and I'm sure that's
37:33
something you deal with constantly when you said earlier
37:37
every kid who comes in to see you wants to throw a 3000 RPM
37:42
breaker or a 30 inch sweeper. They just want to make the
37:46
pitching ninja pitch, not necessarily the pitch that gets
37:50
the batter out, gets out, round out or gets a foul ball,
37:53
whatever, or something that they can locate consistently in the
37:56
zone. All right, we, we talked a good
37:58
bit about performance arsenal stuff.
38:01
I want to step back from that and go the rehab route a bit.
38:05
I know you are not a physical therapist or an athletic trainer
38:08
or anything like that, but you're working heavily on the
38:11
return to throw side in the return to performance.
38:14
So I, I would love if you could offer some insights from either
38:18
what you're seeing or your own experiences with return to
38:22
throws. Maybe we're we are having
38:24
success and then maybe you think we're the industry is falling
38:28
short. So at RPP, myself and Nunzio, we
38:34
rewrote our return to throw program.
38:37
Flat ground standpoint, mount standpoint, we have the amount
38:41
of throws, distances and percentages based on what their
38:45
hardest throw is. So we can kind of grade out what
38:49
intensity should be used on what steps in order for there to be
38:53
some sort of a progression. I'd say for people who aren't
38:57
doing throwing program, it's it's tough that there's not
39:01
many, whether it's PTS or hospitals, whoever's writing it,
39:05
that have throwing programs that have some sort of a velocity
39:08
component to them. The percentages are spaced out
39:11
to like a 5075, a 100%. And those are massive jumps.
39:15
And I think some kids, really not many of my guys in there
39:20
because once they know they've made their last throw of the
39:22
day, they're done. I don't not speaking on anyone
39:24
at other facilities. Also, I think the trend is if I
39:30
do more I'll get better quicker. So there's guys that have legit
39:34
work ethics, but I almost got to tell them to not work as hard
39:38
when it comes to the rehab throwing side so that they don't
39:41
set themselves back. Like you got to be just as close
39:45
to 10 out of 10 on that as possible, but don't get anything
39:48
over that. I wouldn't say there's like a
39:50
direct cause of injuries. I mean, guys are just now just
39:53
throwing harder than ever. Guys are throwing harder within
39:57
and during these growth spurts or that's a mechanical
40:00
deficiency or they had something underlying to begin with.
40:03
That's I would say that's probably where I'd put my finger
40:05
on the most. And I think, well, we're.
40:08
Having success at RPP, like we just had a, we have a high
40:11
school kid that had TJ finishing up as a sophomore and rehab them
40:19
mount progression and the kids now you know, the kids up to 90.
40:22
He was, he was only topping any year before surgery and now he's
40:26
16 is up to 90. We had our flat ground portion
40:29
kind of rewritten, but the mouth portion we had laid out, I
40:34
brought some new intensities and then so I kind of sat down and,
40:36
and broke them down on how we could best lay out his throwing
40:42
because at that point he was a, he was one of the only high
40:45
school kids in our summer throwing program.
40:48
So I had a lot of one-on-one time with him.
40:51
And I've, this is a kid that I've had a relationship with for
40:53
like 2 years. So it was getting a better
40:57
understanding of workload, volume, intensity really.
41:03
Also, I don't like to grade or I guess I'd like to critique
41:07
mechanics on a rehab throw when they're not throwing hard
41:10
enough. Because if you're throwing at
41:12
50%, there's a good chance your glove sides early, you have no
41:15
tension in that front arm. But when he was getting it like
41:18
those 80% pens grading out or I guess more so evaluating where
41:25
his misses were and where he would like start to fatigue out
41:29
a check next to a number. And then like the next time he'd
41:32
come back, I would see more or less what it was like.
41:34
What did he make any adjustments?
41:36
Did he eliminate tension earlier in the throw?
41:39
It's foreign coming back from an injury.
41:41
So they feel anything. They feel afraid, like there's
41:44
pain. But myself and my partner being
41:46
people that these kids can talk to when these types of things
41:49
are happening and being that quote, UN quote, like someone to
41:52
lean on becomes instrumental and their development when, you
41:56
know, you solidify the trust with them when they're at a
41:58
point where they don't even they don't understand why did I get
42:02
hurt? And then it becomes, am I ever
42:04
going to get back to where I was at?
42:06
And then it's just, it's just constant reassurance.
42:08
And they got to obviously be doing the things that they need
42:10
to do as well, but just not too much.
42:13
I want to go back and highlight what you said.
42:15
Working more or working quote UN quote.
42:19
Harder isn't always better in this setting.
42:22
There's a reason the intensity is there, and hopefully that
42:25
intensity can be set from a radar gun or set from some sort
42:29
of tracking mechanism, not just a field perspective.
42:33
But we need to take those baby steps when we're on the way
42:36
back. And I know the crew at RPP has
42:39
done an exceptional job of putting information out there
42:43
when it comes to scaling back from certain velocities and how
42:47
hard we should be throwing. If a throw is prescribed at 85%,
42:53
what does that actually mean? Because let's face it, if you
42:57
tell a kid to make an 85% throw, there's a good chance that that
43:02
ball is coming out within two mph of their all time PR unless
43:07
you have a radar gun on it. So I, I'm really glad that you
43:12
guys have been able to spread that information.
43:14
There's no question you guys are doing a good job with that.
43:16
So I'm sure given the demographic that you work with,
43:20
so many high school guys, college guys, there's a massive
43:24
education piece that comes with this return to throw.
43:28
For sure and one of my guys right now is at Ohio State and
43:30
he would have partially torn UCL non operative, did a bunch of PT
43:34
and stuff and he and I took him through his return to throw.
43:37
We have warm up throws. Then you have like your working
43:39
throws, like your your first throw that you lob at 30 miles
43:42
an hour. I'm not checking that off and
43:44
say one out of 25, but this kid couldn't warm himself up too.
43:49
And he's a, he's a 23 year old kid.
43:50
He's not like a 15 year old kid that I'm rehabbing from an arm
43:54
injury, but he's a grown man and he's trying to get himself warm
43:58
and, and he's getting all dumbed up and he starts like trying to
44:01
muscle up early. And I gave him a walking
44:03
backwards throwing drill just to keep his lower half facing and
44:07
just focus on actively closing the upper half and counter
44:10
rotating and then throwing. And he was literally doing those
44:13
between 45 and like 60 and then 4-5 walking turn to burns light.
44:20
And then from there right into his working throw.
44:22
He was like right where he needed to be at the whole time.
44:25
Him was a big example of someone that someone who had the he was
44:29
he wore a loop. I have a loop was tracking his
44:32
sleep, was tracking his food, was doing all of these things.
44:35
Well, his mechanics were honestly pretty, pretty solid
44:38
outside of a slight crash, which would make his arm like a little
44:42
late. And he's the example of, you
44:45
know, you could still do, you could do everything right and
44:47
you could still get hurt. It's just the nature of the
44:50
sport and it's the nature of the mechanism.
44:51
Like you're throwing hard and this isn't a normal function for
44:55
the human body. There's some guys that are
44:58
blessed and really never get hurt.
44:59
And then there's some guys that are kind of bit with injury bug
45:02
from a younger age. We are sure doing our best on
45:06
this side to try to make it I guess make the industry move
45:11
from we're doing everything right and you can still get
45:13
hurt. Hopefully, hopefully we can gain
45:17
some ground on that and eliminate that line because I'm
45:20
sure that aggravates you just as much as it aggravates us.
45:24
I, I know the way you think, the way we think is there's got to
45:28
be an answer. There always has to be an
45:30
answer. I am unwilling to leave a stone
45:33
unturned and just through your process, it's pretty evident
45:37
that you think similarly, that there always has to be an
45:41
underlying cause or an answer somewhere that we can just dig
45:44
into and discover. And often times that's just
45:47
going to take effort and time as a coach or as a professional.
45:51
But I, I love the examples that you gave of how you manage the
45:56
return processor, how you manage the throwing and understanding
46:00
that you can give drills in a return to throw and you can do
46:05
those things to prevent an athlete from taking steps
46:10
backwards. I guess that's not the best
46:12
phrasing since the athlete was literally taking steps backwards
46:15
to make throws, but taking steps backwards in their actual
46:18
process. Taking steps backwards in a
46:20
sense of changing their mechanics negatively just
46:24
because they can't move the same way they did at full intent or
46:27
when they were fully healthy. So I appreciate you breaking all
46:31
that down now, Nico, from here, I kind of just want to open the
46:35
floor up for you if there's anything else you want to get
46:38
into before I let you go. What's next for flex program?
46:43
OK, there we go. All right, So we're looking at
46:46
some pretty interesting stuff here.
46:49
Thank you for asking the question.
46:51
One of the things that we are diving into, as you know, we
46:55
have talked about it together, is some of the stuff we do on
46:58
the rate of force development side.
47:00
So for those who might not be as in tune with it, what we do on
47:04
the rate of force development side is more similar to how
47:09
force plates would function. So not just looking at how much
47:12
force an athlete can produce with their fingers, but how
47:16
quickly they can produce that force.
47:18
Now, where that is coming into play for us now is even going
47:22
beyond what we're doing on a spin or movement side for
47:27
pitching performance, but actually looking at the impulse
47:32
that an individual can provide and then how quickly the
47:38
important muscles of the forearm can flex to offload stress from
47:44
the UCL. But that is where we're spending
47:47
a lot of time with Flexpro Grip is trying to better understand
47:50
the role of impulse or how quickly muscles fire to offload
47:56
stress from the UCL and ultimately protecting the elbow
47:59
as a whole. I'm excited to continue to hear
48:02
about that because that's very, very fascinating stuff.
48:06
Dude, I can't wait. I feel like a kid in a candy
48:10
store in a sense when it comes to learning about this.
48:14
There's so much information. It almost feels like we're
48:16
starting anew because this isn't something that we truthfully
48:21
knew a lot about when we got started.
48:24
This is for us kind of a new journey because rate of force
48:29
development we thought was more for the performance side of
48:32
things. Now that we are going down a
48:35
path that it can ultimately benefit athletes from a health
48:40
perspective, I think is extremely promising.
48:43
But hopefully we can prove something here going forward and
48:48
change the way that athletes trained to throw a baseball
48:51
hard. I remember that.
48:54
I love that. Well, Nico, I greatly appreciate
48:59
your time today. Thank you for the question.
49:01
They're giving me a chance to speak a little bit.
49:04
How can athletes or listeners, parents, coaches, whoever maybe
49:08
get in touch with you or follow what you and RPP are doing?
49:13
You can go on Instagram at Coach Nico under score, we can go on
49:18
Twitter and it's just my name, Nico Leon Tarakis.
49:21
E-mail is nico@rocklapeakperformance.com
49:26
and I'll I'll be happy to answer any questions from anybody.
49:29
Awesome. Thanks, man.
49:30
So I guess going forward, since we're recording this right
49:34
before the Division One baseball season gets underway and
49:39
pitchers have already reported, I'm just going to put you on the
49:42
spot and ask you to pick your College World Series champion
49:45
and your MLB World Series champion for the 2025 seasons.
49:50
That's going to be that's going to be tough.
49:52
I got to go. It's going to be a shot in the
49:55
dark. I'm going with my EKU GO
49:56
currents, going for the currents, and I'm going with the
50:02
Yankees for the World Series to share.
50:05
Well, the EKU colonels if you put that in, I don't know if
50:09
you're in a DraftKings state or any any state would legalize
50:13
gambling. I don't know what the rules are
50:15
up in New Jersey, but I'd imagine that's a decent payout.
50:18
Oh 100% it would be some ridiculous odds.
50:23
Well, there you go. Maybe, maybe Nico has insider
50:26
information, maybe there's a tip.
50:29
But hey man, thanks a ton. This was awesome.
50:32
I do. Thank you so much, Adam.
50:34
Yeah. And to all the listeners out
50:35
there, thanks for laying back with us.