Latest / Ridiculous History / The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part One: The Return of Dr. Rachel "Big Spinach" Lance

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The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part One: The Return of Dr. Rachel "Big Spinach" Lance · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer,
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  Speaker 1: Max Tiny Subs Williams.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Max the Living Large Language Model Williams.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, Max uh untold story of D Day Williams.
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  Speaker 3: Wait a minute, who's that?
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  Speaker 4: Well?
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  Speaker 5: That the person who said, who's that chiming in?
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  Speaker 3: That's the crowd?
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  Speaker 5: I am.
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  Speaker 1: I am ben Bully in this part of the world.
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  Speaker 1: And you just heard from a returning expert, a person
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  Speaker 1: who continually uh appears on every single episode we do.
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  Speaker 1: In the credits, it is weird none other than Professor
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  Speaker 1: Rachel big Spinach Lance. Doctor Lance, thank you for coming
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  Speaker 1: back to the show.
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  Speaker 4: Ah, thank you. Yeah, it is just doctor Lance. Though
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  Speaker 4: I'm no longer a professor. I have left that lifestyle behind.
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  Speaker 4: I have stopped. Yeah, transition.
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  Speaker 3: Does that happen on day one?
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  Speaker 4: Okay, you have to turn them in when you leave?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, right, like day of elbow? Yeah, and sock security
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  Speaker 5: escorts people out. Uh now? Yeah. Rachel.
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  Speaker 1: In our previous exploration, the thing that inspired us us
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  Speaker 1: to brag about your bona fides and accolades for low
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  Speaker 1: these several years we talked about the story of the Hunley.
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  Speaker 1: Could you give us a brief recap on that?
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  Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know if I could be brief, I'll try,
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  Speaker 4: all right. So February seventeenth, eighteen sixty four, the Civil
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  Speaker 4: War in America is raging full force. One of the
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  Speaker 4: major sources of the bulk of the conflict is Charleston,
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  Speaker 4: South Carolina. It's being bombed and blockaded on a constant
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  Speaker 4: basis because that's where the war started. So naturally, what
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  Speaker 4: do the Confederates decide to do but use a bunch
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  Speaker 4: of recycled steam boiler parts to handcraft a submarine, as
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  Speaker 4: we all would. This crew of eight personnel take their
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  Speaker 4: hand crank homemade submarine out around eight pm that night,
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  Speaker 4: and they use it to press a two hundred pound
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  Speaker 4: black powder bomb against the side of one of the
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  Speaker 4: Union ships blockading their city. Now that's a bomb about
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  Speaker 4: the seism a beer cug. The bomb does successfully go off,
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  Speaker 4: but then the crew and their vessel disappear until the
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  Speaker 4: modern era. So modern explorers found it first in nineteen seventy,
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  Speaker 4: then again in nineteen ninety five. It was brought up
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  Speaker 4: in two thousand and Once it was raised, the mystery
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  Speaker 4: of why it disappeared in eighteen sixty four after apparently
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  Speaker 4: being victorious and sinking this unionship only deepened. Everyone was
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  Speaker 4: in the sub Nobody was trying to get out, the
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  Speaker 4: hatches were all locked. They didn't try to pump out
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  Speaker 4: any water. Everyone just kind of slumped over at their
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  Speaker 4: battle stations, and it was like, we have achieved our goal.
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  Speaker 4: Farewell Crural world.
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  Speaker 2: And what somehow Clive Cussler is involved in this whole thing,
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  Speaker 2: the best selling author.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so he's since passed away, but yes, in the
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  Speaker 4: nineties he was very active in funding a lot of
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  Speaker 4: exploratory groups looking for ships. And there was another explorer
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  Speaker 4: named Lispance who had written a bunch of letters saying
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  Speaker 4: he discovered this disappeared Hunley in nineteen seventy and he
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  Speaker 4: Custler's team took that information. As far as I can track,
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  Speaker 4: that's what really happened. He took that information and they
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  Speaker 4: went out with they are much greater resources than they're
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  Speaker 4: much greater cloud, which does matter. In nineteen ninety five,
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  Speaker 4: and they did something really smart. They announced that they
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  Speaker 4: found it, which since then name Cloud Custler is attached,
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  Speaker 4: gets real big press and real big pressure, and they
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  Speaker 4: refuse to tell anyone where until everyone had signed all
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  Speaker 4: the contracts agreeing what would happen to it, so that
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  Speaker 4: everybody was motivated to stop fighting and figure it out
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  Speaker 4: so they could get this artifact back.
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  Speaker 1: And for anyone who wants to know more about this,
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  Speaker 1: turns out there's an entire book, yeah, which inspired our friendship.
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  Speaker 1: It is called In the Waves, My Quest to Solve
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  Speaker 1: the Mystery of a Civil War Submarine, by none other.
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  Speaker 4: Than you, our undying friendship.
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  Speaker 3: Fams.
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  Speaker 4: Unlike the crew of the alright, no, it's you know
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  Speaker 4: they would have. It was years ago. We can make
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  Speaker 4: dark jokes.
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  Speaker 2: About it, for sure, and gay if I could, can
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  Speaker 2: I can? I just rattle off some Clive Cussler novel names.
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  Speaker 2: We've got plague Ship, We've got the Saboteurs, We've got
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  Speaker 2: the Romanov Ransom, Polar Shift, the Jungle, The Course of
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  Speaker 2: can Shadow Fire, Ice, Devil's Gate, and the Navigator.
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  Speaker 3: Sorry, these are just very like.
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  Speaker 1: I like the bookend with the plague Ship and Navigator
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  Speaker 1: was my favorite.
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  Speaker 3: It's very metal, I will say.
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  Speaker 4: Like plague Ship is a better title than in the Waves.
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  Speaker 4: I'm sorry it is.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well in that case, I gotta give credit.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, in that case, then it sounds like, uh,
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  Speaker 1: it sounds like it's time to write a third book,
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  Speaker 1: since you definitely haven't been busy writing a second book
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  Speaker 1: not too long ago called Chamber Divers, the untold story
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  Speaker 1: of the D Day scientists who changed special operations forever. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: this is this is something we've read again, fans, viewers
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  Speaker 1: and our this is the brag. We were talking about
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  Speaker 1: this off air and no'll remember we always like to
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  Speaker 1: say this at parties. We know the world's foremost authority
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  Speaker 1: on underwater explosions.
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  Speaker 3: It's so niche. I love it.
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  Speaker 4: I do a lot of physics in my free time. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Before we were talking about what your what your hobby
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  Speaker 4: would be if the world suddenly, like everyone disappeared, I
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  Speaker 4: think underwater blast physics might be it like that.
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  Speaker 1: Perfect perfect We're we're reaching out to a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people with that one what more universal concept.
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  Speaker 5: Uh so let's maybe let's.
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  Speaker 1: I almost said, dive into this, so keep it right,
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  Speaker 1: all right, we'll keep it. We'll keep it for the doctor.
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  Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit if you can about
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  Speaker 1: D Day, which was not too long ago. I think
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  Speaker 1: a lot of people in the United States have seen
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  Speaker 1: depictions of.
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  Speaker 3: It, famously in saving private run part of it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so when people are I don't know, I
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  Speaker 1: was thinking about this Noel and Rachel off Air. I
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  Speaker 1: was thinking, how do people who live in Normandy now
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  Speaker 1: feel about D Day?
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  Speaker 5: As a good question to start with.
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  Speaker 4: Right, fun fact, I recently had the opportunity to go
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  Speaker 4: to an underwater physiology conference, not in Normandy but close
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  Speaker 4: by and breast and I asked many French people this question. Really, Yes,
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  Speaker 4: they're very honored by the actions taken by the other
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  Speaker 4: allies at D Day, like they they take that ouniverse
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  Speaker 4: thory seriously and they even young people were deeply moved
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  Speaker 4: by that event. And how much the world really came
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  Speaker 4: to France with a specific purpose. It was broader than
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  Speaker 4: France alone, of course, like World War two is bigger
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  Speaker 4: than France alone. But they they very much have the
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  Speaker 4: mentality and attitude that they were rescued and they appreciate
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  Speaker 4: that and the amount of effort and blood that went
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  Speaker 4: into it.
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  Speaker 2: Now Normandy famously known for their high quality butter that
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  Speaker 2: they produce.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, they're very sassy about their butter.
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  Speaker 3: It's really good. Good.
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  Speaker 4: If you tie and buy on salted butter, you get
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  Speaker 4: kicked out. No.
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  Speaker 2: I mean the first time I had French butter, it
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  Speaker 2: was like, this is a whole other universe, Like this
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  Speaker 2: is nothing like the butter we get over here.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, they're not, they're not proud of nothing like that.
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  Speaker 4: I'll say that it's good. It's good.
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  Speaker 5: They've got they've got credit work.
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  Speaker 4: Exactly, They've got the good. So yeah, d Day, June sixth,
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  Speaker 4: nineteen forty four. As an American, i'd found even as
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  Speaker 4: someone who has always been invested in history, specifically World
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  Speaker 4: War Two history, grew up watching tons of documentaries with
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  Speaker 4: my dad. My grandpa's both fought in it, and so
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  Speaker 4: I had never processed it that way. But one day
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  Speaker 4: I just had this weird realization that we as Americans
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  Speaker 4: think of World War Two as Pearl Harbor December seventh,
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  Speaker 4: nineteen forty one, and then a time warp occurs and
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  Speaker 4: it's June sixth, nineteen forty four and we're storming the
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  Speaker 4: beaches of Normandy.
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  Speaker 2: Sometimes history does be like that, Yeah, sometimes linear.
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  Speaker 1: And people just explain it by as though their studio
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  Speaker 1: exacts pitching a film right right.
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  Speaker 4: To be the zed this miracle time warp occurs for
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  Speaker 4: Americans at least, and that's the way we talk about
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  Speaker 4: World War Two. And I started picking away at it
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  Speaker 4: and I was like, why was there at delay? And
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  Speaker 4: as I wrote in The Waves, my first book, there
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  Speaker 4: was one part in there that actually you can see
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  Speaker 4: as the carryover link that became chamber divers So there's
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  Speaker 4: one part in there where in nineteen forty, this group
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  Speaker 4: of British scientists is doing this experiment on themselves that
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  Speaker 4: had relevance totally by coincidence to the hl Henley from
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  Speaker 4: the Civil War. So I used that experiment in The Waves,
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  Speaker 4: and I didn't really at that time connect it, but
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  Speaker 4: because I didn't know yet, I honestly didn't know. One
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  Speaker 4: day I was sitting there thinking about World War Two
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  Speaker 4: as one does, and thinking about carbon dioxide as one does,
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  Speaker 4: and I realized, like, wait a minute, these guys were
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  Speaker 4: in London in nineteen forty doing this weird little test
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  Speaker 4: on themselves with carbon dioxide, and I was like, they
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  Speaker 4: were being bun Then why did they care about carbon
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  Speaker 4: dioxide when bombs are literally falling on you and I
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  Speaker 4: started digging, and that's the story that ended up leading
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  Speaker 4: to chamber divers because it turned out that one little
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  Speaker 4: paper was really all that they'd been allowed to publish
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  Speaker 4: from this series of experiments where the ultimate goal was
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  Speaker 4: the beaches of Normandy. So circling back, that's three and
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  Speaker 4: a half years, or I might have done that math wrong,
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  Speaker 4: don't don't emn me. Between December ninety one June nineteen
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  Speaker 4: forty four, what was happening in that time period was
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  Speaker 4: science because of beach landing, at least on the scale
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  Speaker 4: that took place at Normandy had never happened successfully. So
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  Speaker 4: we think of it, we think of D Day, and
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  Speaker 4: we think of it from the modern perspective as like
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  Speaker 4: this huge event, this major storming, and people died, of course,
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  Speaker 4: and I will never make light of that, but like,
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  Speaker 4: oh oh, overall it was a success. The Allies took
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  Speaker 4: the beaches. We don't realize fully how world shaking that
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  Speaker 4: is because no military had successfully done that before. Every
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  Speaker 4: previous attempt had resulted in absolute massacre on the beaches.
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  Speaker 4: So it took those intervening years to figure out how
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  Speaker 4: to do that. And so that's what I wrote about.
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  Speaker 4: I wrote about this one group of scientists that was
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  Speaker 4: a contributing factor. You know, obviously no one group did
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  Speaker 4: it all by themselves. It was massive, but like what
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  Speaker 4: this group did was a part of it.
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  Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense, and I love the point we're
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  Speaker 1: bringing up here. At the time, the invasion that we
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  Speaker 1: call D Day today in the West was the largest
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  Speaker 1: of its sort in history and also the.
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  Speaker 5: One successful one.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking to hundreds of thousands of troops, uh, tens
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  Speaker 1: of thousands of vehicles, a bunch of equipment. Yeah right,
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  Speaker 1: a real cannon fodder type situation.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the engineering problem of hey, get a
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  Speaker 4: tank from a ship to the land. That alone, that's
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  Speaker 4: a challenge. Now you had people shooting at you. It's
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  Speaker 4: a bigger challenge, right, And they did it, but they
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  Speaker 4: did it through this crazy amount of innovation. One of
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  Speaker 4: the previous examples, Winston Churchill during World War One, actually
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  Speaker 4: led an attempted beach landing at Gallipoli and they got
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  Speaker 4: stuck on the beach for a year and they eventually
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  Speaker 4: gave up and left after.
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  Speaker 5: They have to stay the whole year or the weather nice.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, they were just there for a year with
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  Speaker 4: no housing, beach shot at it was, Yeah, there's.
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  Speaker 5: No supply chain logistics exactly.
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  Speaker 4: It was. It was a terrible military failure. So Churchill
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  Speaker 4: in particular was deeply aware of how big of a
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  Speaker 4: problem this was.
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  Speaker 1: So what we see then, It's a point we continually
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  Speaker 1: returned to, is that history is often taught to us
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  Speaker 1: as a series of one off, discrete events at best,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: maybe a linear pop pop pop, like the acts in
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  Speaker 1: a film. But the the fascinating thing is every day
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  Speaker 1: is still occurring between those big moments, and as you said,
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  Speaker 1: there's so much science involved, there's also a lot of
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  Speaker 1: humanity involved, which we might We have to get to
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  Speaker 1: some of these big characters in our second episode, But
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  Speaker 1: is it fair to say, Rachel that there was a
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  Speaker 1: little bit of mad science involved?
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  Speaker 4: Understatement? I think these people were I don't want to yeah.
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  Speaker 5: I don't want okay, but they were like a half
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  Speaker 5: order of.
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  Speaker 4: They were maybe like one banana what they were doing.
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  Speaker 4: I do think it takes, and this was a group.
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  Speaker 4: I do think it takes a really special person to
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  Speaker 4: be in your home, to have food shortages, to have rationing,
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  Speaker 4: to have bombs falling on you, and to say I
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  Speaker 4: will stay because London is where the lab is, and
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  Speaker 4: I think this is a big enough problem that I
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  Speaker 4: am willing to put my body on the line to
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  Speaker 4: test it. And that's exactly what this group of scientists did.
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  Speaker 4: And they were all actually geneticists, and like, if you
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  Speaker 4: want to save that for the second part, we can
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  Speaker 4: get to that. But that's what I think is really
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  Speaker 4: important is these people were scientists. One of them this
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  Speaker 4: was a huge area of background for him. But the
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  Speaker 4: Rusts were kind of learning it on the fly because
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  Speaker 4: they collectively realized that the Allied militaries knew nothing. They
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  Speaker 4: knew nothing, and so the fact that they had one
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  Speaker 4: expert all of a sudden made this genetics lab in
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  Speaker 4: London the global epicenter for un underwater research, many subs diving,
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  Speaker 4: all of it that they would need in order to
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  Speaker 4: plan these landings.
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  Speaker 1: Now, also this story was previous to your publication, Chamber Divers.
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  Speaker 1: This story was classified, right, it.
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  Speaker 4: Was classified for minimum seventy years, so that was the
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  Speaker 4: UK records. Now in that time, there is some nefariousness
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  Speaker 4: some of the government officials involved, like stole some of
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  Speaker 4: the work from these these scientists, and so there was
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  Speaker 4: like added confusion that I started digging out as I
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: started going through the original records. Now everyone's dead, but
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: like you know, I have had no a vengeance against
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: that I needed against people who died, like when I
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: was in middle school. But so yeah, there was nefarious
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  Speaker 4: happening in that time period. So this minimum of seventy
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  Speaker 4: to eighty years of classification was applied to all the work,
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: and the UK did a bulk declassification of a lot
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  Speaker 4: of D Day records and World War Two records in
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  Speaker 4: about two thousand and one. So these records started being
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  Speaker 4: declassified in about two thousand and one, and a lot
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  Speaker 4: of the American records I had to submit requests for
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: to get them declassified. Wait requests, Foyer requests. Yeah, so
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  Speaker 4: those were readily accepted. I'm not going to pretend it
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: was a huge battle, but what it does show is
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: that nobody had ever publicly read them. So the fact
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  Speaker 4: that I had to do that they had not already
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: been cleared for release shows that I was the first
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  Speaker 4: one to go through some of this stuff.
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  Speaker 3: Nice.
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  Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah that was an adventure, and that's why
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: this book also took a long time. Like my first
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: book came out April twenty twenty There were pandemic issues
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: with researching this, Like I started researching this and then
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: the pandemic hit and it became an infinitely longer task
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: and that I couldn't really even finish until travel started
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: clearing up because these records were in multiple archives throughout
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: the world and it was just this whole big thing.
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  Speaker 4: But yeah, that this one came out last year, April
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty four. I had some personal issues that were
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: happening around there, which is why it took me a while.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: They were jud to you, guys. I'm so sorry. Please
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: do not take it as a reflection of our.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: Kidding, dying friendship.
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: You're a You're a wizard. A wizard is never late.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I went to like a personal cave. But as
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: I crawled myself out, I was like, oh, no, we're here.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: We've been waiting.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: We've been mentioning you every episode many years. So putting
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: out the vibes into the universe. Mentioned on the jacket
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: of your book, this concept of let's see you use
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: the term maverick hard drinking submarine researchers. Can we unpack
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that just a little bit before we get into the
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: main kind of duo and the love story that I'm
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: folds sure, wild story.
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: All right, where do you want to start? You want
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: to start with Maverick.
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: Bombs.
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  Speaker 1: The bombs have not maybe yet quite fallen on London,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: but uh, there is an ill.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Wind in the air.
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: War is coming.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, people got the bad vibe, right, So uh so
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: now we have, as you said, uh, we've got a
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: bunch of boffins, right, and what are our boffins to do?
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: What to do? Yeah, I'm sorry, I've not heard that word.
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: Well, I guess our eggheads are our fellow nerds.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: Okay word, Okay. So war is coming. There's this character
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: Hitler who's over on the mainland and he's expectorating some
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: very terrible things. Of of the things that he's just
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: like spitting on and out about is that he wants
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: to reclaim previous parts of the German Emperor Empire, the
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: Holy Roman Empire whatever you know. Terminology is being used
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: for the fluctuations of territories throughout Europe. So anyway, he's
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: being very vocal. He's planning to take over some stuff,
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: and the European countries around him are not thinking that's
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: so nice. They're like, no, you know, we're not going
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: to agree to that. So this guy, I don't know.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: This guy seems like a totally good dude.
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah he's not the.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: Best I have notes, but anyway, So by about nineteen
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: thirty eight, nineteen thirty nine, it's very clear that he
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: cannot be modified through diplomacy, and so England in particular,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: who had been Germany's opponent during World wars World War One,
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: knows that war is coming for them. So one of
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: the things that they very smartly do as an island
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: nation is working on their submarines and their ships and
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: their ability to have naval warfare. So June first, nineteen
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: thirty nine, they have this submarine called the HMS Bedus
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: and this is the bit that was in the waves
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: that kind of brought me over. HMS Thetis sinks. It's
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: in very shallow water. Literally at the for the first
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: few hours, the stern of the submarine is sticking up
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: out of the water. They can see it, they can
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: touch it, they can send rast to it, but they
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: can't get out the one hundred and three people crammed inside.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: Eventually it does kind of reshift the stern sinks below,
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: but even then it's in really shallow water. The people
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: inside have underwater breathing apparatus, they should be able to
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: get out. Only four make it, and those four are
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: the best word I can come up with is bedraggled,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: like they are in rough shape. They are plucked off
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: the surface of the ocean. One of them is actually
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: the captain of the submarine, which is contrary to a
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: lot of practice about the captain going last. But what
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: had happened was the crew inside was really scared, and
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: so he went early to be like, I will do this,
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: I will show you it's safe. So because of that,
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: we know a little bit about what's happening inside the submarine,
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: we know a little bit about the air that they
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: were breathing, how these underwater breathing apparatuses work. And to
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: shorten a lot of bureaucracy, basically, the Royal Navy realizes
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: that they've built submarines, and they've built escape apparatuses, and
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: they haven't tested them at all in that application. So
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: they've got all these things. This is their plan A
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: and it is their only plan for getting out of submarines.
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: And they realized like, oh damn, we don't actually know
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: if this will work or if it will actually kill
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: you as you try to use it.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, because okay, I see it's a fatal version of
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: leedle horse water because you can get the sub close
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: to the shore, but if you can't unpack this up exactly, Okay.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: It's like they've led the horse the water, but they
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: didn't check to make sure the water wasn't poisoned first,
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: So the right just poison horses. So anyway, this one
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: guy living in London, he grew up in diving. His
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: name is John Burdon Sanderson Healthinge. He went by JBS,
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: so his first three initials. He grew up in diving
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: because his dad is this like or his dad was
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: this world famous physiology diving researcher. His dad was the
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: one that solved how to come up slowly enough so
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: that you didn't get the bends decompression sickness. So his
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: dad was really famous. But his dad just died the
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: year before. So now the Royal Navy has nobody and
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: they kind of start scrambling about. So this guy JBS,
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: he'd grown up in this environment. They had a gas
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: chamber in their home that his dad would test stuff
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: on his children, including TBS and JBS's sister, Naomi, and
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: the kids were like part of the experiments. They were
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: helping run the experiments. Naomi was like in charge of
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: CPR if like a test, so too cassed out. Yeah,
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: and she was like twelve at the time, right, So
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: they they know this because it's been part of their upbringing.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: So JBS really steps up. He gets a but of
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: his bunch of his buddies. JBS has been through two
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: wars before, he's been through World War One, he's volunteered
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: in the Spanish Civil War, and he gets a bunch
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: of his veteran buddies and they're like, we're gonna show
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: you what happens when you try to use these because
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: we're going to test it on ourselves in a safe,
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: controlled environment. So that's where I think the Maverick part
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: really comes in is at the beginning, there was nobody
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: even really asking these people for help. They just kind
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: of were like, I did an experiment and I got
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: the answer.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: And this is desperate time.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: Yes, I mean he was right. Like he was a
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: great scientist. He was a professor at University College London
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: and that's where he ran a genetics lab and that's
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: what he'd been studying, but because of his upbringing he
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: knew how to do dive research.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Did you say University College London? Has always struck me
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: as a little redundant.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: He done that out, doesn't it? But like, so him
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: and his buddies do this experiment, they get these results,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: and there's this dramatic scene where JBS is literally on
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: the stand during the Royal Navy inquiry to figure out
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: who to blame for this accident. And he got out
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: of the tamber at something like three or four am
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: that day and they're like, well, how much how much
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: would we need to manage the carbon dioxide in the
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: sub in order for people to survive? And he does
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: the math on the stand, being like this will take
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: me a few extrare minutes to still have a migraine
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: from these experiments like the night. So I'm not going
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: to do math while people are watching me do the math.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: Like I need to be kind of like in my
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: office with a blanket. It's like a little hoodie and
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: you know, scribbling away and then you're a math yeah,
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: and then I'm great at it. I will Sam Crackerjacket
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: private math, but like in a court scene of real action,
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: supervised math. Uh, seems seems harder. So from that moment on,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: he and his lab do become the go to for
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: underwater physiology questions. But what's even wilder is the allies
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: in general know so little about surviving underwater that they
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: don't even really know what to ask them to study it.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: And so yeah, they kind of like he works with them.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: They make a little shopping list of questions. And if
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: you read this list, it's wild because it is it
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: is everything. It is like how much oxygen is too
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: much oxygen? How much oxygen is not enough oxygen?
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: Do people have guilt? Yeah, because we could save a
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: lot of bit of money.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: What about carbonaxid? It is literally like everything that you
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: need to survive as a human or need to avoid
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: to avoid death. And they're just like, can you work
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: on it?
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: So did they ask questions about not death but depth?
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: They did, Yeah, so that was on their list. They
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: still had questions about coming up from depth. So you
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: got to realize too at this point diving diving is
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: still hard hat stuff. So we're talking Cuba gooding, junior
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Men of Honor. You need a giant ship. That is
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: what diving is as of nineteen thirty eight.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: And we're talking like diving bell situations, like the giant
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: helmet's all of that.
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, diving bell is like a thing that the people
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: go in, so you're kind of inside of it. But yeah,
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: that or a giant helmet you're walking on the bottom.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: But either way, we now have this island country probably
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: going to work with mainland Europe got people in submarines.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: There's not a good way to have this surface applied setup.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: And they also realized, like in the submarines themselves, they
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: don't really know how to keep people alive in them.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: They've kind of just been building them and helping for
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: the best, like don't run the diesel engine while you're underwater.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: Like that's about it in terms of how to keep
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: people alive in a submarine.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: At that time, Can we ask real quick, Rachel at
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: this point, Okay, we've figured out part of the technology,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: we haven't figured out how to keep people reliably alive
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: with this technology.
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: What was the reputation of.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: The service members who might volunteer to hop on us
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: up if they were figuring this out? I mean, what
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: were the fatality rates? This feels very much like a
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: risky one way party.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So even now, if you talk to submariners, the
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: attitude amongst that community is very much that if something
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: happens to the sub they're going down, and they seem
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: to have like a weird peace with it, which I
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: understand from a personal survival standpoint, that's probably what you
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: got to do in order to go to work in
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: the morning. So I fully support that. But as a scientist,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: I'm like, let me let me work on this for you.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: Let me be back here working on that. But yeah,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: at the same time, World War One has just happened.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: There are all these German wolf packs. The wolf packs
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: have had crazy success, but we've seen the sinkings occur
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: in World War One and so World War Two. The submariners,
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: at least as far as I can tell, it is
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: very much their mentality that they go out there assuming
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: there's a good chance this is a one way trip,
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: accepting that fate and doing what they can for their
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: country anyway, which is pretty bleak, and I think we
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: owe them better personally, Like I think, yeah.
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: I agreed with that.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: You know, it calls to mind the later stories about
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: helicopter pilots in Southeast Asian conflicts. In the in the
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: seventies who just made their peace.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't help but see parallels with like
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: early space travel, like it, just in terms of the
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: level of unknown, the level of risk, the level of
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: like is this technology good enough?
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah. One of the most common questions I get about
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: the HL Henley that's our civil wars up is do
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: you think they knew they were going to die? And
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: I typically answer that yes, but not necessarily in the
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: sub so, I think that when you have a time
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: of war, you have people who are exposed to so
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: much that they become willing to do whatever they can
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: to help end it and to help defend their comrades
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: in arms. And I think those become two really major goals,
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: and with that becomes a level of acceptance about the
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: risk because there's so much that they can't control.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: I have a.
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: Buddy, he's become a buddy through writing. So if you
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: don't mind, can I give his like a book a
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: shout he doesn't please?
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Do we also like to know his social Security number,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: a social media Yeah.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: I don't know his handles off hand, but his name
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: is Casey Oloff Tellison. That's kay A C. Why And
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: he wrote just an absolutely stunning book called Freaks of
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: a Feather and that's his memoir as an active duty
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: service member in Iraq and Afghanistan, and he talks about
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: the same thing. So that's why I quote him frequently.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: He has a particular passage in there where he talks
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: about that same mentality of being like, I can't control
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: if I'll die today. I'm just going to go out
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: and do what I can. So it is essentially what
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: it came down.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: To before the grace of God and all of that.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Freaks of a Feather that it's.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: A great title. By night, it's instantly arresting. I must
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: know more doing it now.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: And this is this I think speaks to you know,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: the commonality, the human thread that we see throughout so much,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: so much of human conflict. Right there are people who
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: decide that, you know, what I'm going to do this
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: morning may likely be a one way trip, but I
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: have to do it. And then I'm glad we spent
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: some time on the perspective of these early submariners, right
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: who know the technology is it there? Can you imagine
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the meeting where you meet your sea and they start
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: telling you the idea of a submarine and then you say, yeah,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: so also, yeah, quick question here in the back, first day,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: how do we get out?
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, fine, it's fine.
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but after the Thetis. So that was June nineteen
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: thirty eight, so obviously work comes for England faster than
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: it does for America by nineteen forty there in the blitz, right,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: so they very quickly start planning for that exactly because
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: the Thetis event really shook the nation. You know, when
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: they brought the they recovered the submarine, they brought the
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: bodies out, and they put big sheets up to try
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: to block it. But like still everybody there knew what
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: was happening, and so there are oral histories of like
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: people from that coastal town just being like we just
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: sat there and watched, like we couldn't see everything, but
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: we felt like someone needed to observe this moment. And yeah,
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: it really shook the maritime community in the Royal Navy,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: and so they immediately start building buring escape practice towers
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: and they start working with these breathing apparatuses and doing
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: tests on these breathing apparatuses which were a great concept
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: but essentially had just been taken from mining like coal,
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: coal mining, copper mining in the air, you have a
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: lot fewer problems to do with. So they had never
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: been fully tested at depth underwater, and it was that
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: added pressure that it turned out was screwing everybody up.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: We were saying breathing apparatuses that hopefully, No, I'm not
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: the only person in the crowd tonight who's picturing something
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: vaguely canvas or steam punky. Can you tell us a
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: little bit about what these breathing apparatuses looked like.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I'm also picturing Frank booth from blue Velvet, kind of
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: like with like desperately from.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: Maybe go as steam punk as you can possibly imagine.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: So my guess this is like before widespread plastic, right,
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: So the containers are made up but aluminum. They're painted black,
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: they're like corrugated, so it's corrugated metal containers. They've got
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: corrugated rubber hoses, they've got different types of breathing bags.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: So this is before scuba. Jacques Cousteau was working in
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: Nazi occupied France, so the way these different groups went
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: about it were all they all iterated toward the same
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: end result, but they were all different. So they have
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: these breathing bags, so you breathe into the bag and
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: then it would get cycled through this canister. It would
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: add more oxygen, and then you would breathe that kind
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: of refreshed air back in. So when you're breathing, you
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: need oxygen at the right level, and you need to
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: get rid of carbon dioxide. So normally we do that
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: by just exchanging air with the world around us. The
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: trees handle the carbon dioxide part where that you tried
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: to yeah, thank you trees, and then there's just enough
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: air that it's not really a problem that needs active processing.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: But when you get into smaller and smaller space, that's
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: why you don't want to breathe out of a plastic bag.
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: You're gonna run down the oxygen, you're gonna produce more
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: carbon dioxide. There's all of a sudden, no exchange happening.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: So they were essentially breathing into canvas or leather bags,
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: but they were processing it with these canisters that took
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: out the carbon dioxide and oxygen bottles that added more
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: oxygen in.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, And it sounds like you have to have a
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: specific let's call it a don't panic level of breathing
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: frequency right, if you breathe too fast, if you're huffing
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: in a hurry, would that mess up the apparatus?
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh my gosh, great question, Ben, Get out of
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: my brain. Yeah. So we've literally been studying this concept
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: since so that was a big part of my job
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: as a scientist. Is still and we've made advances. I
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: don't want to say that we haven't like but there
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: have been huge leaps and bounds. But these devices still exist.
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: So if you look out, if you look at rebreathers,
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: if you google the word rebreathers, you'll see the modern version.
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: So they're made with more modern materials. You're gonna deal
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: with anidized metals, and you're going to deal with plastics,
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: and you've got like plastic lined woven fabrics and stuff
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: for the bags. Plastic made those a lot easier. They're
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: now controlled with computers, but you still run into the
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: same problems that the human body is hard to modify
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: and it has very strict rules about breathing. Breathing is
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: the thing that will kill you first. In any scenario.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: You get three minutes without oxygen, three days without water,
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: and three weeks without food, So you gotta pay attention
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: to the breathing far and away. Anytime you're going into
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: an environment where we don't naturally live as like caveman
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: style human beings, surviving underwater is a really big one.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: So as soon as they start discovering that and they
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: realize how little they know, and they realize like this
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: war is coming, mainly Europe, they're going to have to
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: develop their underwater technology a lot more. So D Day
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: becomes the ultimate target. It starts with the thetis, It
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: starts with these breathing apparatuses. They progress and accumulate from there.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: If they start building smaller submarines, like I said, that's
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: the submarine version of putting your head in a plastic bag.
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: So that takes work. They need to be able to
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: swim underwater on purpose. That takes work. And yeah, if
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: you start breathing too fast, you can owe what's called
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: overbreathing your system, like you start to hyperventilate, and it's
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: the passageways may not be big enough, and it may
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: not be scrubbing carbon dioxide at enough rate, and all
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: of that stuff requires testing so that it happens first
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: in a lab where we can resuscitate people as opposed
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: to while they're being shot at on a Nazi occupied be.
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: This is the perfect segue to episode two.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: A cliffhanger too, Yeah, cliffhanger like quant do Hawk sorry
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: do howk is one of the sites at the beaches
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: of Normandy and it's this straight up vertical cliff and
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: there was a big German armament at the top and
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: so some of the US Army rangers were signed the
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: task of scaling this vertical cliff as part of the
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: early assaults on D Day. So you can still go
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: see it. You can stand to the top. You can't
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: really go to the base as a public member of
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: the public, but like, it is an oppressive feat and yes,
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: so they developed a lot of like grappling hook and
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: rock climbing stuff to do that particular thing and take
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: out that battery.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating to fascinating in a new small part
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: heartbreaking how much technological innovation comes from conflict, comes from war,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: you know, and how much amazing it's also departs that
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: are now uh Rachel, As we reached the end of
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: the first part of our two part series on Chamber
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Divers and D Day, we do have to confess to
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: you that we have we have a selfish ulterior motive.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Noel and I are going on a.
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: Cruise very soon in October. We've never been on.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: I've never been at sea.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've not out a cruise like so this is
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: new territory. So that's why we're asking you somewhat oddly
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: focused questions about what can go wrong on the water praze.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: It's gonna be fine. Say, it's gonna be fine.
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: Fine if you're on the surface and you're breathing. There's
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: so many problems you've already solved.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's the way to look.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: Solve so many problems. You guys are going to be great.
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: And also like the more you eat, the more insolution
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: you have against another major problem that we will see
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: in Normandy, which is hypothermia.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, we are actually going to do
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: a podcast about the Bermuda Triangle from the.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: Bermuda to try what could go wrong. We're not tempting faith.
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: If they're technology clitches, I'm going to suspect they were
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: intentional on your part. I'm just sating you're giving.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: A lot of credit here, but I appreciate that.
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: Hold the periscope.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: We are making this, as we said, a purposeful two parter,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: and we're excited to see how much deeper this story goes.
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: But deeper. Hold the periscope, Ben, You're on fire.
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Better dunk you into some some water.
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: Thank you. So reaching a new level of depth. Terrible puns.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some people would say they're subpart look Lord, all right,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: all right, so big, big thanks to our returning guest
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: doctor Rachel Big Spinach, Lance and Noel. Just the energy
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: and the knowledge here. I am having such a time,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: the passion.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: She's a wonderful person.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: She's an expert in her very, very niche and delightful field.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: And we're so grateful that she she came to hang
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: out with us for not one, but two episodes.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: And here's a mark of character for doctor Lance. We
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: try spoiler at the end of our second episode. We
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: try to get her to say something bad about Jonathan
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Strickland aka the Quist, and I suspect she was.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: Just too nice to do so she won't do it.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Big
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: things to Alex Williams who composed this track.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: Who else?
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: Who else?
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Oh jeez, Yeah, Christophraciotis needs, Jeff Coates here in spirit,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland the quister, A j Bahamas, Jacobs the Puzzler,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: and of.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: Course Rachel Big Spinish Lands. How can we not thank.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Her again as we always do, and join us later
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: this week when we're bad with more from Rachel.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: We'll see you next time, folks.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,