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Data centers coming to a town near you · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:12
  I'm Stephanie Coxson.
• 0:13
  And I'm Kathy Anderson Martin.
• 0:15
  And we are two women influencing real life.
• 0:18
  So let's twirl.
• 0:21
  Stephanie, last week we had a show about data centers with a friend of ours who's a master gardener clinical researcher sharing some information.
• 0:30
  And I know we had a ton of questions and comments to us personally about that and from people really in various parts of the country concerned about data centers going in near them, near their properties, and what they could do about it.
• 0:44
  So it really triggered a lot of discussion.
• 0:46
  So we're gonna have part two of that conversation today with a very good friend of ours, representative uh Pennsylvania State Representative Barb Glyn.
• 0:55
  I'm excited about this because this is a hot topic.
• 0:59
  It is invading everyone's world at this point.
• 1:02
  And so we need real information, real strategy so that people can understand what's going on.
• 1:08
  That's right.
• 1:08
  And I'm Kathy Anderson Martin.
• 1:10
  I'm Stephanie Coxson, and we are two women inspiring real life.
• 1:15
  So let's twirl.
• 1:17
  So Stephanie, I mentioned that we had the conversation last week, and like I say, a lot of people I know reached out to me personally and were uh contacted me via social media about what they could do.
• 1:27
  Um, and Barb representative Glime is in the thick of this because she has a data center going in near her.
• 1:34
  She's a farmer, one, her husband has a farm, and well, then she has the farm too.
• 1:38
  And uh she can uh she's been in this sphere, and she said there's a lot of misinformation she's told us offline, and you know, a lot of things we need to be aware aware of.
• 1:47
  So welcome, Representative Barb Glime.
• 1:51
  Yeah, thank you for having me.
• 1:53
  We love you, we love having you on here, and there's no person closer since you're getting one in your backyard.
• 1:59
  So we're super curious, you know, not only like how this impacts you personally, but legislatively, like what's happening, like there's just there's so much wrapped around data centers.
• 2:12
  So much going on around data centers because they came on pretty fast in Pennsylvania, it just in my opinion.
• 2:20
  Um, and uh obviously there'd been discussions probably for years about this, but the infrastructure itself um takes time to actually build up.
• 2:30
  So, how did we get to this spot so fast?
• 2:35
  Um, and just for um the viewers, uh in my backyard, we're getting three hyperscale campuses on 700 acres.
• 2:47
  Wow.
• 2:47
  Okay, and it is the largest project in the state.
• 2:52
  Um, and if you use your AI and you go to Grok, uh, you can actually just say, you know, in there, hey Grok, what's the largest hyperscale data center um going into Pennsylvania and Middlesex Township pops right up as number one?
• 3:10
  Um so uh I thought that was pretty interesting.
• 3:14
  Um, and so there's a lot of um ordinances flying around for all the different townships, and um, you know, depending on where your data center is popping up, you're gonna have different issues.
• 3:28
  Um, one of the things that I just presented at the Farm Bureau meeting here uh recently was you know, there's some people that want a moratorium, they don't want any.
• 3:38
  Well, that's just not gonna happen in our world today because we are using way too much um electricity and data as a population that we're going to have to have some of these data centers.
• 3:53
  But I think that putting them in a residential area may not be the best place.
• 3:59
  Um there may be rural areas or different areas that um would be better suited, and uh I think we also need to think about blight and it with throughout our whole state and figure out maybe this might be the answer to that.
• 4:14
  I'm not sure.
• 4:16
  Um, but I'm here just to let you know that there are probably five or six legislative initiatives um up at the house right now and the Senate actually.
• 4:28
  And so what is important about that is that we want to keep the issue of data centers locally controlled because our state is so diverse, some of these make sense in some areas, they don't make sense in others.
• 4:46
  Um but we don't want a moratorium on them.
• 4:49
  I want to interrupt you for a second, Barb, because when we talked about this last week, I know I had people from numerous states reach out to me.
• 4:57
  There were different people, Kentucky, Virginia, Michigan, I think.
• 5:01
  So this isn't just a Pennsylvania issue.
• 5:03
  This is all over the country that these are happening.
• 5:06
  So I get it, and um, I did the same thing, Kathy.
• 5:11
  When I found out this was coming to my backyard, I called my counterpart in Virginia.
• 5:16
  I called my counterpart in Ohio.
• 5:19
  I called um some residents that I knew in Colorado that um had a data center right next to an elementary school.
• 5:28
  Um so I and I then I got on a bus with some of my local uh township officials, and we went down and toured them in Ashburn, Virginia.
• 5:39
  Um we toured the company that is actually going to be coming to our neck of the woods to build, uh, so that we had an idea of what the outside looked like.
• 5:49
  We could listen um to the latest and greatest, okay, the brand new buildings that we might be getting.
• 5:58
  Uh so I did that as well.
• 6:01
  And you had said uh before we went on the air that you have to people have to be cautious when looking at information on the internet because it can be a couple years old, and this is changing so rapidly that the information you may find when you research is completely different.
• 6:17
  Is that is that correct?
• 6:19
  And that was my experience.
• 6:21
  So I started going online and started thinking, oh my gosh, they're gonna take up all this water, they're gonna be taking up all of our electric.
• 6:29
  I did the same thing that a lot of the residents are doing right now, but after my tour, um, I realized that this is moving so fast um that the upgrades are are happening monthly to these buildings and to the um and from the end user, the end user being the Microsoft's the you know, Netflix, the Googles of the world are upgrading these monthly.
• 6:58
  Now I heard, and I don't know if this is true.
• 7:01
  I hope that you know, and maybe you don't, but I heard that China is actually um doing some underwater stuff, like right by the o.
• 7:09
  Is that true?
• 7:10
  I mean, China is is a little bit ahead of us, I think, to be honest, and that's why this is happening so fast in the United States.
• 7:19
  But I just read an article um, I guess it was last week that said that Elon Musk's plan in the next few years is to put these in the sky.
• 7:31
  Um, you know, yes, and have some sort of a you know, uh satellite where this would be handled in the sky.
• 7:40
  So what I've been telling people is this, Steph.
• 7:43
  Just like my I'm old enough, and and probably you are too, um, to remember that when we started out with our computers, they were as big as a as a room.
• 7:54
  Right.
• 7:55
  And now they're on your watch.
• 7:57
  Okay.
• 7:58
  And I really believe that these big huge, you know, conglomerate buildings the size of Home Depot, um, there may be some technology in the future where we don't need them anymore, which is why I keep pushing um decommissioning clauses.
• 8:17
  Um explain that.
• 8:19
  Can you explain what that means?
• 8:21
  Yeah, I really think this is the most important thing about all the buildup that we're going to be having, is that the local municipalities should demand that there is a decommissioning bond by the end user of these that says if technology, you know, warrants all of these buildings to be obsolete, that we will return um the area to its original use.
• 8:50
  And in, you know, whether it's farmland, whether it's you know, ready for development, I don't know, whatever the original use was.
• 8:58
  I know in my backyard, that land was sold back in 1999 to a developer.
• 9:04
  So it was already slated for 1500 homes, which was going to still tax the water, the sewer, the you know, the lighting, everything in that area.
• 9:17
  Um, but it fell through because of the economic downturn in 2008 and 2009, and then now it's been sold to Powerhouse, which is a data center company.
• 9:29
  So I my biggest thing is I can see in the future us not needing these as much anymore, or that they're becoming smaller, and we need to decommission them and return you know that land back to its original use.
• 9:43
  And I I just want to, if you people didn't listen last week, these data centers are, as you mentioned, uh giant buildings the size of like a home depot, where there are stacks and stacks of servers to process information.
• 9:57
  There are very few employees.
• 9:59
  So
• 10:00
  So when you say dish decommissioning, just like with the computers, and I remember that too.
• 10:04
  You know, you had these giant server rooms and so forth, and now you have that on your phone.
• 10:09
  Um, that's technology tends to make things smaller and more efficient and so forth as it uh matures.
• 10:15
  So that's what you're saying.
• 10:17
  We may not in a couple of years or maybe even shorter period of time, need this giant thing with stacks and stacks of servers.
• 10:24
  So then what happens to it?
• 10:26
  And you're trying to prevent that that just sits there as an eyesore for the next 20 years with no function for the community.
• 10:35
  Right.
• 10:35
  And at the meeting I was at, um, I had a county commissioner there, and um, and I mentioned this, and she said, Well, we don't um require that of our warehouses.
• 10:48
  Why would we require it for this?
• 10:51
  And I said, Well, why don't we require it for warehouses?
• 10:55
  Because, you know, we have blight in our township and in our county, then this could take care of all of that.
• 11:02
  So the taxpayer then isn't paying for the blight, you know, um, because then they get state grants and they've got to tear down the building and it and this way it's the it's the company that pays for all of that, and that is literally helping the taxpayer.
• 11:19
  Um, so I said you could, but again, this is taking um up a lot of electricity.
• 11:28
  Most of these are sucking electricity.
• 11:31
  So um it's a little bit different than a warehouse that's storing you know, paper products.
• 11:37
  Well, and I last week we learned that within five years, a lot of times the electric rates go up in the community where these data centers are located over 200%.
• 11:47
  And I think President Trump had actually said that we need these, like you said, to some degree we need these, but um they need to produce or they need to find power sources outside of the grid for regular everyday life, because that is a problem um for any community if it's sucking all that energy and uh power, you know, from what people need for their homes and businesses.
• 12:12
  And um, and I'm happy to that he did that.
• 12:16
  I do believe that any additional costs that the end user has should not be passed on to the ratepayer, and uh his executive order said basically just that, and uh as long as we have that, then we know that um hopefully we uh won't have electric bills going up by 200%.
• 12:36
  It's just not fair to the surrounding residents.
• 12:39
  Um I I just do want before I know we only have so much time, but there are two things that I am definitely worried about though, and I'd like to mention them that I don't think a lot of the residents are even thinking about.
• 12:52
  Um one is uh I'll c for lack of better word, light pollution.
• 12:58
  When you have these hyper scale campuses like this in a in a semi-residential area, we've seen that in my area because we are industrial in my area.
• 13:09
  We've got truckings, a lot of trucking.
• 13:12
  Um, and we have uh we just got a UGI tanker that's lit up like a a crite a Christmas tree.
• 13:19
  Um we have a big huge warehouse full of um medical marijuana in my in my district, and um, so for me, I believe we're gonna lose our night sky.
• 13:32
  You know, anybody that's near this big campus with all those lights at night, um, need to realize that uh that will impact our night sky, uh, unfortunately.
• 13:46
  That's my one major um I guess hesitation with all of this.
• 13:51
  And the second one is my farm has power lines, PPL power lines going right through it right now.
• 13:59
  And I don't know, Kathy, if you've been on the haunted hayride at our but you can literally walk underneath that power line now with a um fluorescent light, and it will light up.
• 14:16
  You can just hold it in your hand, and uh the energy coming off of those lines will light up a fluorescent light bulb.
• 14:24
  So with the extra energy coming through the that PPL line that are going to the substations that they're going to be building there, I'm worried.
• 14:35
  I guess they call them EMPs or or something similar to that, that it's going to be really bad, and we're gonna hear the crackling off of those lines, and um heck, you know, somebody could probably build a house under those power lines and have free electricity.
• 14:53
  Uh it's crazy.
• 14:55
  You know, there's actually research I was reading, this is years ago, where that constant noise causes health issues.
• 15:02
  Is anyone considering those things?
• 15:04
  There's like a ton of research on it.
• 15:05
  You just have to dig a little bit.
• 15:07
  Well, actually, we had a public comment on that um during one of our township meetings on the noise.
• 15:14
  And so we had engineers, uh, not just with our township, but um other town other counties that went down with all of their uh equipment and measured the noise levels, and they were under, they didn't even need it, but they were under uh the allowable noise um statutes.
• 15:38
  Yeah, but even the allowable noise from like the solar farms and stuff like that, it still causes health issues.
• 15:45
  So yeah, just the constant, you know.
• 15:49
  I I I get that it's allowable.
• 15:51
  I mean, there's a certain you know, things in our meds that are allowable, doesn't mean that it's great for us, and I'm just curious if these are being taken consideration because I think I mean, honestly, I think any noise is a problem.
• 16:02
  One of my favorite things that happens when the power goes out is the silence, and you don't realize how much noise is around you until you hear that silence when the power is out, and um, I do think it has a huge impact on us.
• 16:17
  I just know the law and um and the statutes, and as long as they're meeting those um, then they're okay.
• 16:26
  Uh and that I mean, I'm not gonna just I'm not a doctor, and I don't even I'm not an expert on data centers.
• 16:33
  I'm just letting you know that we're trying to make sure that they're not exceeding what the laws and the statutes and the regulations say.
• 16:41
  Yeah, no, I are you concerned Barb, um, your husband makes his living as a beef farmer.
• 16:48
  You have cattle um who are out in the pastures and so forth.
• 16:52
  Do you have any concern?
• 16:53
  Um, and you grow crops and gardens and so forth.
• 16:57
  Do you have any concern about that and the effect on farmland and agriculture and livestock and so forth with these things going in?
• 17:06
  Um, I guess is there is the straight answer.
• 17:10
  There's some cons if I had concern, it would be about the bees and the insects.
• 17:16
  It wouldn't be about, you know, the the cattle.
• 17:19
  The cattle have been, you know, grazing, we have rotational crop grazing also for our cattle, the hay is a crop, basically.
• 17:28
  Um, and we've never had an issue at all with them.
• 17:33
  Um so I'm not so worried about that, but I am more worried about uh insects and bees because we have to have the bees.
• 17:42
  Now we have two sets of um, I guess uh when I say sets, we have bees.
• 17:49
  We we make honey, and uh we have a bee man that comes in, and uh so far though, we've been he said that he's had a great uh success rate with his bees um right now, but with these coming in, it's gonna get interesting.
• 18:06
  Have there uh has with other data centers I've been put in, has anyone looked at the bee population if there is a significant or insignificant impact on them?
• 18:18
  No, that's uh just one of one of my many concerns.
• 18:23
  Um especially uh a big hyperscale campus like this.
• 18:28
  Now, again, you know, you can argue well, our township is the industrial township of the county.
• 18:36
  Um, and if there was gonna be an issue, we probably would have had it by now.
• 18:41
  Um, but we'll see how uh this goes.
• 18:46
  But um bees, uh I know we did a show about that, I think last year sometime, Stephanie, someone who's a bee expert.
• 18:54
  My dad used to keep bees, and so I can share lots of story about extracting honey, and we sold it door to door, so I know my share of bee things.
• 19:02
  But without bees, I mean, the amount of bees are pollinators which we need to make the food, basically.
• 19:08
  If we if the bees all died, we would all starve within you know a week or two because the food would go away.
• 19:15
  Uh bats are the same thing, you know, they eat all of the insects and so forth.
• 19:19
  So when you mention the light, you know, I was thinking uh the light pollution and those things.
• 19:23
  If it messes up the rhythm of these other creatures, which are needed, you don't think it's not important, but they are in the entire circle that God created, um, that creates issues.
• 19:35
  And I was thinking of like when you go to the beach, they tell you to turn off the lights, and you're if you're on a beach hotel because of the turtles and so forth, you know, they get screwed up by the lights and go the wrong way, and then that's screwed, you know.
• 19:48
  And again, creatures are um follow the rhythm of the seasons and the day and night and day.
• 19:56
  So if that throws that off with the bees and so forth, and they
• 20:00
  Start to diminish, that affects our food supply.
• 20:02
  Right.
• 20:03
  And so the uh and so following that up, Kathy, is uh another ordinance that I'd really love to see as a farmer is that none of these data centers can go on tier one, two, or three soil.
• 20:19
  Okay.
• 20:21
  What does that mean?
• 20:22
  Sorry.
• 20:22
  That means the best soil for crop growth.
• 20:26
  Okay.
• 20:26
  So like Lancaster has tier one soil, but they're even considering a data center in Lancaster County.
• 20:34
  Um, and so I know the Farm Bureau is working on this kind of policy, but we need to be able, the state needs to be able to regulate um, you know, a little bit.
• 20:46
  I know it's locally controlled, okay.
• 20:49
  But um there needs to be some guardrails and and for lack of a better word, regulations around um how we roll these data centers out.
• 20:59
  Um, you know, farmland preservation is a big deal, but um, I really believe that we need to be looking at the soil, soil types.
• 21:08
  If you have a bad soil type and you're on tier four soil, it's not really great for growing crops.
• 21:15
  You might be able to um graze on it.
• 21:18
  Um, but you know, I I think a data center in that area could probably be fine because it's not going to be a good soil to grow anything on, but we really need to be preserving and taking a look at um our best soil.
• 21:33
  And and that's the thing with land, it is the one non-renewable resource.
• 21:38
  It is there's only so much of it, period.
• 21:41
  Same with water.
• 21:42
  You know, there's only so much of it, and um being responsible and thinking of these things, like, hey, we might need some of this to eat food, you know, not just process information.
• 21:53
  And I think that's my concern that there's no one looking at all of these small details.
• 21:58
  Yeah, in our case, the water is gonna not gonna be an issue.
• 22:03
  Um we have plenty of water, and um I know that the company is actually gonna be building a couple of water tanks for storage.
• 22:13
  Um I I mean it like I said, it just depends on where the data centers are going.
• 22:20
  Uh, that you know, whether you're looking at all of these things.
• 22:24
  Um, and I just want to also say um, as far as the agricultural part of that though, let's talk about your right as a farmer to be able to sell your land.
• 22:36
  Okay.
• 22:37
  So here is in itself the issue in a way, as far as the agricultural world goes.
• 22:44
  You've worked your your farm your whole life, then to have a township come in and say you can't sell it, right?
• 22:54
  Or the state.
• 22:55
  Yeah.
• 22:55
  And and so you really to have to take a look at the rights of individuals here too.
• 23:01
  Um, and it's it's it's a tough issue.
• 23:05
  Well, we um have to go to break, but we'll come back because uh uh with some more comments on this.
• 23:11
  Yeah, I I find this totally interesting in um I don't know, just the different perspectives, what we're hearing online versus from you know, representative Glime.
• 23:21
  Fascinating.
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• 28:18
  Now, Barb, you had um when we before we went to break, and I want to preface this that you know, there's interesting bedfellows on this whole uh thing with the data centers.
• 28:27
  You have the environmental people, and we are conservative.
• 28:31
  We believe in the rights of people to make decisions right before we went to break.
• 28:35
  You said about people, I believe firmly people should, when they buy property, they should have, you know, a right to what they do with that property, sell it, develop it, or whatever, within reason, you know, and again, that's why we have uh regulations and so forth to protect the larger community.
• 28:50
  But um that it is a balancing act, I guess you could say, about the environmental concerns that affect all of us with these data centers and the individual rights of property owners of being able to sell their land and uh make a profit from something that they invested in, or even the developers, you know, they're independent business people that are um um make interested in making profits, and we're all about capitalism and profits.
• 29:18
  So that that is a big we're coming at this as conservatives with uh with a cautious uh bent about it.
• 29:26
  And and that is a tough line to to walk, right, with all of the pro individual rights versus the larger issues.
• 29:34
  Yes, and I'm I'm concerned when people um are saying that okay, you know, the state should get involved in this, the state should um, you know, pass laws to make these you know data centers this or that, or put them here or put them there.
• 29:53
  And it it gives me pause.
• 29:56
  Um and I that's why I've been advocating, first of all, it is.
• 30:00
  Is a local decision locally controlled.
• 30:04
  The state is not here for all of your answers.
• 30:07
  That's why the people closest to you are the people that you've elected to voice, you know, your to be able to voice your concerns to.
• 30:16
  In my area, it is very split.
• 30:19
  That is what I'm gathering by doing doors.
• 30:23
  Because the only choice is between 1,500 houses or data centers.
• 30:29
  Okay.
• 30:29
  This isn't really the land was sold back in the 1990s already.
• 30:34
  So the whole community is split over what they want in this in this realm.
• 30:42
  And I am a resident, so I get a voice as well.
• 30:47
  Not just, you know, as a state rep, but as a community person living there.
• 30:53
  So what I did was I pulled down some ordinances that I knew were floating around in other areas.
• 31:00
  And I met with my um with one of my township supervisors.
• 31:06
  And one thing I do want to talk about real quick on this is nuclear, the nuclear option.
• 31:13
  I gave him some piece of legislation, again, from the state that defined what a nuclear mini module is.
• 31:22
  And this may be the answer, Kathy, to a lot of the concerns of the environmentalists, because these mini modules, they're just to make it clear.
• 31:35
  These are small little reactors that they use on submarines and even smaller.
• 31:40
  Three of them can fit on the back of a tractor trailer.
• 31:43
  Okay.
• 31:44
  You you don't, and you it doesn't have to even touch the ground or the soil.
• 31:49
  So it's not like it's going to be going down into the soil.
• 31:53
  They are testing them out west right now, and France has used them for 20 years.
• 31:58
  They're very safe.
• 31:59
  We are behind the times on that.
• 32:02
  But it is just forced air from the nuclear side.
• 32:06
  And then you don't have to worry about your water or your electric and a lot of the environmental concerns that you have in certain areas.
• 32:15
  People hear nuclear and they just think of three mile island and big reactors, and then I do.
• 32:20
  I mean, when you say that, that's the first thing I think of.
• 32:22
  Yeah.
• 32:23
  But again, technology is rapidly changing.
• 32:27
  Uh, this might be another option that um areas in Pennsylvania can use and request or or demand through an ordinance that whoever comes in with the data centers, use this type of energy.
• 32:40
  And um Barb, quick question, because I know somebody, this is kind of funny, reached out to me after last week's show and said there was one going into his property near his area.
• 32:50
  Who should he contact?
• 32:51
  All I said, I saw, and I wrote back, call call Barb Glime.
• 32:54
  You know, she has one, and he's in central Pennsylvania, and he goes, Oh, it's the same one.
• 32:59
  I live like within a mile of Barb Glime.
• 33:01
  So I'm like, okay, well, you know, but the people you should be calling are your like local supervisors, county commissioners, board of township supervisors, those kind of people, right?
• 33:14
  Right.
• 33:14
  Um, they are the ones that are dealing with the county overlay.
• 33:18
  They're the ones that know what ordinances have been put in place, and and and quite honestly, the contract that they're working through with the data center, um, you know, end users.
• 33:30
  So I I again they are more than welcome to come in and talk to me.
• 33:35
  Um I I'm here five days a week, you know, in my district office.
• 33:40
  My question, I uh I from what I've been hearing, a lot of these boards and folks really don't know what's going on themselves.
• 33:47
  I know a friend of mine was at a meeting because there's one going in near their property in another county, and they were texting me and I gave them your number, and I think you got on like speaker phone in their county township meeting and said, okay, this, this, this.
• 34:00
  So a lot of these local officials don't really know what's going on themselves.
• 34:06
  And it's up to us as um constituents, maybe to even help educate them or encourage them to look into this because they don't even know what they're approving or not approving.
• 34:16
  Is that correct?
• 34:17
  It's correct.
• 34:18
  And what I've been um touting it to as many of these um municipalities as possible is it doesn't matter whether there's a data center coming to your uh municipality or not, everybody needs a data center ordinance.
• 34:36
  All thousands, there's I get over probably uh over a thousand municipalities and boroughs um in our state.
• 34:44
  And given the the uh the current situation that we have, they all need ordinances.
• 34:51
  And this is to start working on now, like this ahead of time, like this or last year.
• 34:56
  Last year or 1999.
• 34:58
  Right.
• 34:59
  Right.
• 35:00
  We're we're already behind people.
• 35:01
  It's it's time to get out because once they come in, is it too late?
• 35:07
  In a lot of ways it is, and that's what's happening in Middlesex.
• 35:11
  Um, we're sort of backpedaling.
• 35:14
  Um, because they bought out a developer, we already had an approved plan that had gone through the whole system.
• 35:21
  So when the data center company bought it, um, our township, you know, basically took a look at the current approved plan and then got the county overlay uh that they had on file to see if it fit, and it did.
• 35:40
  Now, our county has a white paper, a data center white paper that people can draw down as well.
• 35:46
  It's fairly good.
• 35:48
  So if you went into Cumberland County and you Googled, used your AI and Google, um, you know, uh data center uh county white paper, um, you could pull that down and read it.
• 36:04
  Uh it's fairly comprehensive.
• 36:06
  And if you're living, we have listeners all over the country.
• 36:09
  There again, start at your county, local government, um, educate, ask, even if you don't understand it, ask what they're thinking and doing about it.
• 36:18
  If they get blank stairs, then you know you're in trouble.
• 36:21
  Um, if they can articulate an answer, that's probably a good place to start, but at least to ask the question is probably where it should start, correct?
• 36:29
  Right.
• 36:30
  Yeah, and they should ask the question what type of data center is coming here, because there are so many different types.
• 36:38
  There's, you know, open loop, there's closed loop, um, there's all sorts of um diff, and of course, there's the nuclear kind.
• 36:48
  Um, so they need to also be able to figure out what is the end user going to use these big boxes um for and what energy are they going to be using within them.
• 37:03
  And those are two big questions.
• 37:04
  What's it for?
• 37:05
  What's the energy?
• 37:06
  And the one you said earlier, what are they gonna do when it becomes obsolete?
• 37:09
  That's right.
• 37:10
  Can you just tell us like open loop versus closed loop?
• 37:14
  You know, we understand the nuclear, we talked about that one, but in your opinion, let me say this.
• 37:19
  In your opinion, is there one that is better than another?
• 37:25
  In my opinion, again, it depends on where the data center is, but the closed loop uses less water and more electric.
• 37:36
  And if we're not passing through the electric, in my opinion, those are the best ones.
• 37:42
  Um the open loop is more of an evaporation system where they use a lot of water, less electric, and it's evaporated through the roof, basically through an evaporation system that's on the roof.
• 37:59
  Um, and then if you had one there where you're using nuclear mini modules, then you're not gonna use any of those, and you're just using forced air.
• 38:07
  And I like that the best, in my opinion.
• 38:11
  And that's the kind of thing like President Trump was talking about, finding your own power source versus just plugging it into the grid that is powering neighborhoods and uh local communities.
• 38:21
  Right.
• 38:22
  And in our hyperscale campus, um, from what I've understood, we are getting a closed loop system that will not use as much water, but will be pulling from the PPL lines coming through.
• 38:36
  Now, there's been a lot of misinformation saying they're gonna use the Cana de Gwenet in our state for the water source, which is not true.
• 38:44
  It's not true at all.
• 38:45
  The reason that campus is there, situated there is because of the PP and Lines.
• 38:50
  It has nothing to do with the Conadegren River.
• 38:53
  You know, I think oh go ahead, Steph.
• 38:56
  No, I was just gonna see if um I know there was a study on the nitrogen, I think it's nitrogen dioxide.
• 39:02
  Don't hold me to that.
• 39:03
  Um is anyone looking at some of the I guess you'd call that off-gassing that comes from these things and what that does as well.
• 39:11
  I mean, is there like closed loop versus open loop versus nuclear that would be better for for that even?
• 39:18
  Well, again, I I I don't know the answer to that question, Steph.
• 39:22
  Um, all I know is that uh this was a fast tracked project um from last year, and we were told we don't know who the end user is yet.
• 39:36
  Um so we don't that's what we're being told.
• 39:41
  We don't know who the end user is yet.
• 39:43
  And that end user is the one that determines what kind of data center gets built there.
• 39:49
  Now we've since that time uh been told it's going to be a closed loop system for all 18.
• 39:57
  We are getting 18 guys.
• 40:00
  In one spot.
• 40:01
  Wow.
• 40:03
  And here again, I think, you know, as we talk about this, I've one, I'm kind of smiling that Barb Glime has gone from uh farmer to state representative to technology consultant.
• 40:14
  This is like never in a million years, three years ago would I'd say Barb Glime would be giving us uh directives on mini nuclear powered sources for our data center, but I do appreciate how things happen.
• 40:29
  So thank you, Barb.
• 40:31
  Um but there these things are not easy, and that's one thing I get irritated about both sides, liberals and conservatives, like just do this.
• 40:39
  And usually the people on social media that say just do this also have horrendous grammar, which that makes me upset, and AI is not going to make that any better, but that's another issue.
• 40:48
  Put an apostrophe if you're gonna say your and it's you are, put an apostrophe in there not, but anyway.
• 40:53
  I'm sorry, on a tangent.
• 40:54
  Um education system.
• 40:57
  Yes, yes, well, Barb could go on about education because she was a school board president too.
• 41:01
  But um, these are there are not easy solutions, even for your township supervisors, your planning commissions and so forth, because there again we're saying it's balancing the environmental concerns with the rights, individual rights of property owners.
• 41:16
  So don't go off in there half cocked thinking that these people are trying to destroy your community.
• 41:22
  I I don't think 99% of those people are trying to do anything nefarious or wrong.
• 41:30
  They're trying to make good decisions that balance those things.
• 41:33
  So I, you know, these are hard decisions and hard, and and again, as you said, Barb, the technology stuff people are saying now was years ago, and that and it's changing every week or every month.
• 41:46
  Right.
• 41:48
  And the one, and I just want to piggyback off what you just said.
• 41:51
  There's been a lot of online chatter that's been quite frankly mean.
• 41:56
  Um, because people don't want them.
• 41:59
  There are people that don't want them.
• 42:01
  There's people that want them, and then there's people that don't.
• 42:04
  And um, I just want to say this it's okay to be angry, but it's not okay to be mean.
• 42:10
  I completely and nobody in these type of small uh townships um are there to do anything bad to you because you don't want light pollution or you don't want noise pollution or something like that.
• 42:29
  I mean, they it is a balancing act, and it's also an educational process.
• 42:35
  Um, so you're right, I'm not an expert on data centers, but I have to try to learn about them.
• 42:43
  They're coming to my backyard.
• 42:45
  We're going to have to pass legislation on them, and I like to read legislation and policy.
• 42:51
  So I'm trying to educate myself faster than this is actually happening, which is very difficult to do.
• 42:57
  By the way, I just want to thank you for saying that as a legislator saying I read policy.
• 43:03
  There are a whole lot of them that my understanding is don't even read the stuff.
• 43:07
  Right.
• 43:08
  There are a lot of people that don't read it.
• 43:11
  You know what I'm talking about.
• 43:13
  I do.
• 43:14
  It's so true.
• 43:15
  Um, I read so much, it's uh my eyes hurt at the end of the day.
• 43:20
  But um, this is not an easy topic to read about, first of all, and then you have all the other balancing acts.
• 43:28
  I truly believe that you don't want somebody in your state government determining where these are going to go.
• 43:35
  Correct.
• 43:36
  Because it it needs to be a local decision.
• 43:39
  And and and that's with so many things.
• 43:41
  I mean, we've had numerous conversations.
• 43:43
  I mentioned school boards.
• 43:45
  Um, I get furious with my school board in my area, but I still think that should be a local decision.
• 43:51
  I don't want the state, good lord, not the federal government giving uh mandates for education and local education.
• 43:58
  That should be a local decision, as should most things.
• 44:01
  So I think that's important.
• 44:03
  I think it's very important what you said.
• 44:04
  Don't be mean, don't be a jerk.
• 44:07
  Um, you know, find out, investigate, give your opinion, but be reasonable.
• 44:14
  And that goes further.
• 44:17
  Does that exist in today's society?
• 44:19
  I see the call.
• 44:20
  But I'm trying to say it.
• 44:21
  And and here's my other problem.
• 44:23
  I gotta say it with AI.
• 44:24
  I personally hate AI.
• 44:26
  I saw a demonstration this weekend of what it can do, listening to conversations, repeating it back.
• 44:32
  I said it didn't repeat all the negative things I said, and the programmer said, Oh, yeah, because I programmed it only to pick siphon out like the good things with whatever the topic was.
• 44:41
  That's my whole problem with it.
• 44:43
  That people just listen, buy it, you know, Google it, go, they don't have discernment, neurotransmitter activity in our brains when using chat GTP and all these other things go down 40, 50%.
• 44:56
  So I fear, I I think it's probably the precursor to the antichrist, and that um, you know, people lose all reasoning and discernment ability, which they don't have now.
• 45:07
  But um, so that's my concern with it, but it is here, and I'm as guilty as anyone to, you know, Google something or get an answer.
• 45:14
  But um, that's my big concern about discernment and brain activity, much less light pollution and agricultural.
• 45:21
  I mean, it it's here, but I just am very concerned because there's no checks and balances.
• 45:26
  So sorry, I had to get that out.
• 45:27
  No, that's how I can.
• 45:29
  You're absolutely right.
• 45:30
  Let me say something positive about AI, though.
• 45:34
  Um, and try to get everybody outside of the realm of just what you're doing on your device.
• 45:43
  AI is used in um so many it's used in your car.
• 45:49
  It's used in your and drones, it's used in agricultural equipment.
• 45:55
  It's used um, and it's going to be used for new technology coming in the future.
• 46:01
  Okay, so it's I agree with you, Kathy.
• 46:03
  I can't stand it for an education in the education realm at all.
• 46:08
  But um, again, for it for precision farming, AI may be able to knock out glycophate that we don't like using in our food.
• 46:19
  We had someone else on talking about that.
• 46:22
  Yes.
• 46:23
  Um, by pinpointing the weeds with certain, you know, lights that kill the weeds that way.
• 46:30
  Um, and I've saw a demonstration of that happening, although the piece of equipment is way too expensive for anybody to use right now.
• 46:39
  But the new technology is coming one day using AI that will help certain, you know, fields in the future.
• 46:48
  Who knows?
• 46:49
  Maybe we'll have like flying skateboards or something, you know, as our mode of transportation.
• 46:54
  Um, I'm just saying there's some good things uh that AI does, but um, we need to regulate it.
• 47:02
  I just want to say that that was promised in the 1980s and back to the future, it has not been delivered, and it's very upsetting that it has not here.
• 47:12
  I I do feel very underwhelmed.
• 47:15
  This is my watchword with all of this stuff.
• 47:18
  I feel that we were created in a certain way.
• 47:21
  This life cycle, I think of, you know, God created things, and that's per way I am.
• 47:25
  I think it was all by design.
• 47:27
  And when we remove something, just like during COVID when we isolated people, I was very outspoken, as were you.
• 47:34
  I think all of us that was going to create other issues because we're created for community.
• 47:38
  I have that problem with the GLP ones that slow down digestion and leave food in your body to make you feel fuller versus God created us with an elimination system for a reason.
• 47:51
  So I feel there'll be other problems.
• 47:52
  So I look at all of these things, how we're recreated, how are things, you know.
• 47:56
  So if we take the bees, if we do something that eliminate half the bees, we're going to have a problem.
• 48:02
  So when we think we're smarter, and Elon Musk said something that terrified me uh right after the State of the Union, he said AI will make our lives so easy.
• 48:10
  No one will have to work.
• 48:11
  Well, you know, it'll do everything for us.
• 48:14
  That that is not going to happen because again, we were created to work and be productive.
• 48:19
  So those are the things that concern me.
• 48:21
  Um, you know, with all of this.
• 48:22
  And I do am I just being crazy, but that's just how I think of all this stuff.
• 48:27
  I mean, you're a little crazy, Kathy.
• 48:29
  But go ahead and discuss.
• 48:30
  Go ahead, Barbara.
• 48:31
  What do you think?
• 48:34
  Again, I think that there's gonna be realms where it's really harmful and and areas where it's really beneficial.
• 48:42
  And it's for humans to decipher and to discern where it's helpful and where it's not.
• 48:51
  That's a keyword, discernment.
• 48:53
  Yes, yes.
• 48:54
  I don't think that we're gonna be able to stop it.
• 48:57
  Um, it is technology on on its way, and bas and quite frankly, already here.
• 49:03
  Um, and so we've got to discern where this is going to be harmful or not.
• 49:09
  And um, and that's basically what we're doing right now.
• 49:13
  Um personally, you know, it's the people that invented it that should be the ones telling us some of this or giving us some advice on some of this.
• 49:23
  Um, but I you know, we live in such a world where you know, sales is a really important thing, so they don't always want to tell you, you know, the bad effects, just like a drug, you know, you you go on to a commercial and they're like, here's this drug, but here's all the side effects.
• 49:40
  My husband and I say that all the time.
• 49:42
  We're like, we'd rather have the disease versus all the stuff you're telling you is gonna happen to you.
• 49:46
  And that to me is the same thing as AI.
• 49:48
  So here's AI, and here's all the side effects.
• 49:51
  It's like this will cure your eczema, but your limbs will fall off.
• 49:55
  I perhaps be.
• 50:00
  Super interesting to see where we are in five, six years with all of this because technology is advancing so quickly, and it's just doubling, doubling, doubling.
• 50:12
  Um I I don't even know, you know, if I were to come out of the 1980s as a time traveler, I wouldn't even be able to recognize today's world.
• 50:21
  Imagine at the rate that we're going, what it's going to look like in just six, seven years.
• 50:26
  I find that a little bit.
• 50:27
  I went to college with a typewriter and I was thrilled that I had one because it was electronic and it even had you know the little uh um white out kind of strip in it.
• 50:36
  So that's boy, did you just age yourself, Kathy?
• 50:38
  I know I did.
• 50:39
  Barbie.
• 50:42
  Oh I I don't know, Kathy.
• 50:44
  I think I'm even older than you.
• 50:46
  So um, I mean, I didn't have any of that, you know.
• 50:50
  We had a walk man, and man, did we think that was something where we could have music in our ears, you know, just with the you know, a little cassette player, and my kids are like, what's a cassette?
• 51:04
  They have no idea.
• 51:06
  Um, and then we take a look at this phone, and we're like, how do you get that app?
• 51:11
  Or how do you we're constantly asking our kids, you know, uh the the latest and greatest technology and how to use it.
• 51:20
  And that's why I really believe our schools are really behind the kids.
• 51:25
  The kids are so from a technology standpoint so far ahead.
• 51:30
  Um, but we do need to get back to basics on some of those things that uh make us the greatest nation on earth.
• 51:37
  And uh I think that we'll work through it and and have discernment on what we're gonna be able to teach the kids in the future and and how we have to get our education system up to par in order to teach them.
• 51:51
  I just want to throw that out there, but go ahead.
• 51:54
  We need to we need to, as people and as kids, you know, when you were talking about that, I was thinking when my husband and I drive somewhere, I'm like, how did we get anywhere without GPS?
• 52:02
  You know, I don't how did I get to point A and B?
• 52:05
  Um, so we rely on it, but we have to keep thinking and teach our kids to think.
• 52:11
  The schools, you can use technology, we should be, because they're gonna have to use it in work for meaningful work, but we should not take away the ability to reason, think, and provide dissenting opinions.
• 52:24
  That's what concerns me.
• 52:26
  If we could program something to say I wiped out anything, and we saw that during COVID, you know, anyone that uh spoke differently was um canceled, you know, and that's the key.
• 52:38
  That's in all things.
• 52:39
  We need people to give um different opinions on different things, or if we lose that, we lose everything, in my opinion.
• 52:48
  I mean, that's why we are the greatest nation because our constitution uh affords you know, is is really by the people.
• 52:57
  The people are the ones who decide what they want, what they don't want in their communities.
• 53:02
  It's not the government that's you know supposed to come down on to the people.
• 53:07
  And um, and that's why Kathy, we need to keep stressing that um any technology that's new that's coming into our communities like these AI data centers, it has to stay locally controlled.
• 53:22
  We need to hear from the people in the community.
• 53:26
  Um the problem we have right now is we've got people from all over the United States and all over the state coming into this little middle sex township and taking up a lot of the public comment and drowning out the local voice.
• 53:42
  And um, and so what ended up happening was the supervisors, after they, you know, were open many, many meetings to everybody, decided, you know what, we're not hearing from our own uh municipality.
• 53:56
  So they um started to say, nope, you have to be uh a member of the community before for our public comment right now.
• 54:04
  We need to hear from them, which was a great thing in my opinion.
• 54:07
  Yeah, that's a good policy to have.
• 54:09
  You know, if people want to get good valid information about this stuff, is is there a place that they can go?
• 54:16
  I mean, it there's a lot of misinformation on the internet.
• 54:20
  I would probably go far as to say there's probably a lot of misinformation come from the people lobbying for these data centers.
• 54:27
  Where do people find out about data centers who have legitimate concerns and want to prepare themselves?
• 54:37
  Um multiple uh doubter center data center associations, but you're right, they are gonna skew it in a positive manner.
• 54:46
  I am gonna say it again.
• 54:48
  I think it depends on what kind of data center is coming into your area, and it is your local supervisors, your local zoning officers and and uh who know what exactly is coming in and they are conversing with the end users.
• 55:08
  So I would actually just get into the nitty-gritty and and call your local municipality to find out did they go down and and check the noise levels, how much water is gonna be used and is it going to tax you?
• 55:23
  How much electricity is gonna be used, and is it going to get passed through?
• 55:27
  Like you have to ask all of those questions because they have the latest and greatest.
• 55:33
  Um the internet does not.
• 55:36
  And to Kathy's point, I mean, that's detrimental.
• 55:40
  Yes.
• 55:41
  And you've got to have those face-to-face conversations to find out what exactly is going on and not rely so much on the internet, um, just an overall viewpoint of data centers because they're all different and the states are all different and different various places of um where these are gonna be placed.
• 56:04
  Like, is it rural?
• 56:05
  Is it um you know, residential?
• 56:08
  Where it's all gonna be different based off of where the data center is and what kind of use they're going to be using.
• 56:17
  Thank you so much for for coming on.
• 56:20
  I mean, I think this is really informative.
• 56:22
  I think it gives a very different perspective.
• 56:24
  I think that we need to hear all of this stuff, Kathy.
• 56:27
  Um, as that's why I was sitting here thinking I'm very proud of us, Stephanie, because last week we had um Heather on who made me think we're all gonna die.
• 56:35
  And um, but she did give a lot of information, and Barb is giving other information, and that's what it's all about giving information back and forth so that people can decide.
• 56:45
  And as Barb said, go to your local officials.
• 56:49
  It has to be done.
• 56:50
  And so, and this is the point that everyone needs to to dig in here.
• 56:55
  Everyone needs to stand up, everyone needs to step forward, everyone needs to speak out.