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What I've Learnt - Tammy Casselson · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, I escaped and survived.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: I was very sure he was going to kill me andor kill my children.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: I woke up screaming, jumping at slight sounds, going through periods of isolating myself and pretending that I was okay.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: But I would not allow my perpetrator to take any more from me and vowed to always keep an open heart.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Tammy Castleston was just 15 years old when she first saw him from across the room.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: They smiled at one another and that was it.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: She was smitten.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: He was 17, charming, funny, very good looking, and looked at me like I was special, she says.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Their relationship began with laughter, love, and lightness.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: He was always so proud of me and showered me with adoration.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: I loved being loved.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: I loved how funny he was.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: I thought we were building a very strong foundation of trust.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: As she writes in her book, The Grimmist of Fairy Tales, things took a turn for the worse, and all the love-bombing and the love-struck moments in time became quite terrifying, disturbing, and ultimately led to the suicide and tragic death of her ex-husband.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Tammy's here to tell us at what I've learned about her journey, her strength, and how she found her way out of the darkness.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Pleasure, Tammy.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: So, Tammy, let's talk about when you first met.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: You talk about this quite beautifully, I think, the the early days of being a young girl smitten by this handsome 17-year-old, as we all do.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: We can all relate to that.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about how you met your ex-husband.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: We actually went out on a on a double date, we were set up by best friends of ours, and we looked at it across at each other and both smiled, and I felt ill for him.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: And he was incredibly charming, which is often what these men are, you know.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: And um, we talk about people like this grooming us and grooming our families.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: And in the beginning he was, he was just the perfect partner.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: He was very handsome and funny and the life of a party.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: And charismatic, and and you talk about the way that he always, you know, attended to you, was very attentive, was very, you know, um, appeared completely in love with you and and probably was.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't doubt from what you've described, there was genuine love there.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: That's what's strange.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to know, to be honest.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, uh you when after everything you you're not sure what you question everything.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: The truth is you question everything.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's very hard to know what was true and what wasn't true.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: I think there was an infatuation with with what I offered.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: These people often um love what you know, they they choose people who have got things that they don't have.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was highly educated, I I offered this status that he didn't have.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's it's really just difficult to know.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: And so he he, I mean, he was, you know, very had lots of friends, he had a beautiful family, and he was very proud of me and he loved showing me off.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: As long as I was going along with what he wanted and what he was saying, which I'm a people pleaser.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: So I was always doing what he wanted.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: And as long as I went along with his plans and what he wanted, everything was fine.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: It was as soon as I wasn't doing what he wanted.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, and anytime I chose to do something different, that things got not so good.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: And so would you say it was, I think you mentioned it was a few years into the relationship.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: So you were married and there was absolutely no warning signs.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, it sounds because there are certain sort of sociopathic elements that you've described as you talk about it, particularly when I read about it and listen to your story.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Part of, I suppose, the the smoke and mirrors is, as you say, the complete sort of ability to make you feel like everything's fine as long as you stay in your lane, or his lane, shall we say.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the truth of the matter is when you look back and you analyze, you then see little red flags that you would never have seen if, you know, especially at that time.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: We we wouldn't, we've never been taught about red flags in those days.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Now there's lots of education starting to happen, which is why I'm doing this, is to do the education and awareness around red flags.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: What are healthy relationships?
4:53
SPEAKER_01: What are the green flags in a healthy relationship?
4:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, he only wanted me to be with him.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: He didn't want me to be with anyone else.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: If I went out with anyone else, he would tantrum and he would um behave in a really unpleasant way until you maybe didn't go out with anyone else.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, he would, he would really not be in a way that you wanted him to be.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, he would there would be times when there would be a little bit of punishment that you wouldn't notice and that you would even question yourself, which is what gaslighting is.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, you you weren't even sure if it happened.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: There would be rewards and punishment.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Um so when you look back at it, any time that I stepped out of the rules of how you wanted me to behave, even in the days that we were dating, there was definitely consequences of those behaviors.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: And that's that does, I mean you we see that, you know, just but I do think, as you mentioned, and I do agree with this, that the next gen, or certainly the next generation that I observe, are very educated, almost overly, overly so.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: So they're hyper-vigilant about this stuff.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: But that's not to say that we weren't educated or informed, but I think there's a lot more discussion around this, which equips people going into and women going into these relationships.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: Although, as we know, there's still incredible vulnerability, and women are, you know, a woman at least two women a week are killed by their partner.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: So in this situation, he tragically suicided, and he was, I suppose, one would say he ended up in the worst position of anyone.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: But it sounds like you were also at risk through this whole process.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Take us through how it got worse, because I'm assuming once you had the children, you're even more challenged because you're even more trapped, even if you are seeing red flags, it's harder.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of escalation in that, you know, story.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: So what happens is he was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder or cluster B personality traits.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And really what that means is these people have problems with impulse control, chronic feelings of emptiness, uh, chronic feelings of abandonment, intense episodes of anger, reckless behavior.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that people often don't think that narcissists do is have suicidal behavior.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: And I never believed, you know, he threatened in our marriage that something bad will happen to me or the children, or that he'll do something to himself.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: And I believed him that something could happen to myself or the children, but I never believed he would do something to himself.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and when he did attempt suicide in 2016, I really didn't believe that it was real until I saw how bad it was.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And that was when I realized it was my opportunity to escape.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: That's when I separated from him.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: How long had you been married at that time?
8:08
SPEAKER_01: So I'd been married nearly 20 years, but I had been with him for nearly 27 years.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Very brave and hard decision.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: And how many children?
8:18
SPEAKER_01: I had two children then.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: But things had just been escalating and escalating.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't actually know the extent of what was going on at that time, which sounds crazy, but I didn't know what was going on until everything unfolded when um he actually attempted the suicide.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: And the problem is that with narcissists, what happens is that the more they lose, and in an abusive relationship, what happens is the more they lose their control, the more they escalate.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: So the most dangerous time within within an abuse relationship is when you leave.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: And we we don't discuss this enough.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: And so, in fact, when we left, that was when the abuse just got worse.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: And in that post-separation time, that was when I was most afraid.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: That was the most vulnerable because you actually you describe.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: So, if you could just give a little bit of background leading up to that first uh suicide attempt, um, which I have read about, but for our listeners, could you give a little insight into what you uncovered prior to that and how things got worse?
9:30
SPEAKER_01: So I knew that he was being nasty, he was being really mean, and the meanness was getting worse.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: So we had had a really bad incident a few years before, and our relationship had fallen apart.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was basically just living with him at that stage.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: In the last few months leading up to the suicide attempt, there was some question about what was going on with money.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: And I was starting to realize that I didn't have access to money.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: It was starting, I mean, it would have been years.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: I'd been, you know, I was just saying it's nearly 27 years that we had been together.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: And it was starting to dawn on me, I didn't have access to any banking.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have, other than a credit card that he gave me, and he would put money on it, only a little bit of money each day.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any access.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: I worked, I didn't have access to money.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I was asking him, I want to know how much money there is, where's their money?
10:28
SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
10:29
SPEAKER_01: And he would not give me access.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: And so we were not talking to each other in that lead up to the attempted suicide.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: And on that day, there was no contact with him.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: And he would check in on me all the time.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: Like even when we when I wasn't talking to him, there was constant checkups on where was I, what was I doing, where were the children who was checking up on them.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: And so it was very weird that I hadn't heard from him all day.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: And then I found out from my son that he hadn't checked in on him, and they spoke regularly.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: By the by about six o'clock, it was really concerning that nobody had heard from him.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: And his one of his business partners in Perth contacted me to say he hadn't heard from him.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: And I went through to his office.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: I said to my son, I'm gonna go and check on him.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: And my son said he'll go.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: And I said, No, it was just down the road.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: I just had a feeling, and I went down the road and I had to unlock the door to go in, and I found him slumped over the desk.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: And at first, like I there was there were all these bottles of mineral waters around, and there was all these empty tablet containers.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: And at first I was sure that it couldn't be.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I just I knew he would never hurt himself.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: I knew for certain.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: And I looked in the dustbins and I looked in the toilet, and then I realized he was really lying there.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: And I I tried to shake him and he was just making funny noises.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: He was completely out of it.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: And then he started slurring and walking around the office and like a drunk person, like a mad person.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: And then he collapsed on the ground.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: And I was I was like just in shock.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: And so I was trying to wake him up and phone triple zero at the same time.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: And not triple zero.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, triple zero.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, triple zero.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: Weird again.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very traumatic, and it makes sense that you know, I mean, your description is very detailed, but also I suppose the surreality of what you're experiencing, it was very I couldn't believe it.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like a cardio process, something like that.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think I think the description that you you've outlined also prior to that, from my understanding, is that he got into some serious financial issues that you were unaware of.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well after we'd gotten home from the hospital, after I'd gotten home from the hospital, because they actually didn't know if he'd even survived, if he had done too much damage.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: And when I got home from the hospital that night, I checked.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: It was the first time I never ever thought to check in any of his.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: I never looked at his phone.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: He used to check my phone all the time.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm the most ridiculously naive, trusting person.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: But like I trusted him and he trusted me.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's what I thought.
13:28
SPEAKER_01: And I looked next to his bed to try and work out what was going on.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And next to his bed was just all these envelopes, opened and unopened, and there was a bag of cards, credit cards, like this huge bag.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: I've actually still got it.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: I need to get rid of it.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: But it's this huge bag of cards, and it's all cards that had his name on and my name on, from banks that I've never heard of.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: It's just extraordinary and terrifying too, because you're like, your names on all these cards you don't even know.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: That's just, yeah, I'm sure it's not as uncommon as you think, but and envelopes from, you know, well, an envelope to say that a letter to say that we were being evicted from our house, an envelope to say we hadn't paid the water, the electricity, the our our telephones, our mobile phones, uh we had to get new mobile phones, our cars were being taken away.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: Everything collapsed in one go.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: It was like just I was talking about ground zero day.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: It was just everything just collapsed in one go.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: And he had basically, so you know you were saying you worked.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Did that work money that you earned?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Did that go into your joint account?
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Is that what happened?
14:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because you trust it and you go, that'll go into the joint account.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: And this is really interesting.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: First of all, I'm sorry that you went through such a trauma, but I saw listening to you, I understand, as I'm sure many people listening to you do, it is you operate with a basis of trust, and you think, well, at the end of the day, how it's just so what are you going to do?
15:04
SPEAKER_00: Keep checking everything all the time.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: But there is something to be said for, as we often now know, that we need to all be across the finances together and to have a sense of ownership and control.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: But it is very, very common, often, that the man will control the money.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: It's just of it's not uncommon.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: So your experience is really, you're not alone in that.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, this sounds like an extreme example.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: So at this point, you had separate, you were still in the house.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, you were still in the house because you're about to be evicted from the house.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: So clearly Yeah.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: So I just I just want to pick up on two things there.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: The first thing is that I can't explain how stupid I felt.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: And the shame and the stupidity of feeling that when obviously I still feel stupid.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: I I I've got a background in in commerce, a degree in commerce, you know, like how ridiculous.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: But the reason I'm telling the story is not so that I can keep telling how stupid I feel, but rather that I can try and bring awareness to it.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Because even today, I still know people where one partner, sometimes it's not mostly it's the woman, but sometimes it's the man where one partner's in control.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: And so I really want to bring awareness and bring education around this idea that it's not just trust that's important, but transparency.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: And so both need to have that information.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm um I'm I work with um the Center for Women for Economic Safety.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of the things that they do is try and help to bring education and awareness to and and change to both banks and the insurance industry and people, so that banks will change the way they the way they work, the insurance industry will change the way they work, and every one of us need to be more transparent.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, the other thing is that you asked, sorry, I've forgotten what you said.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: So you were you were saying that that first of all, you don't need to feel stupid because I think it's really common and you acted from a position of trust.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, but to your point, this is wonderful that you are talking about this because whether it's man or woman, but often it's the woman who is shut out, it's also really difficult if that person, your husband, even if he loves you, inverted commas, if he doesn't want to share that and he doesn't want to open that account.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: So what you're saying is this new, this um organization that you're working with is working towards making sure that banks, you know, don't block one or other party.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: But they're very strange, aren't they?
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Because I know somebody who that they lost their partner suddenly, very suddenly, but couldn't access all the accounts.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: It was bizarre.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: So the way the banks have been set up in the past has just been crazy.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: So especially when it all happened to me, he was able to set up accounts and then also change the mortgage.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, the mortgage with my name, the house was in my sorry, the house was in my name, but the mortgage was in both our names.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: He was able to add another two mortgages to the house without me being involved.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: He was able to have money put into one account, borrow money in my in our joint names, then move the money into his account without me having any knowledge.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: He had five different postal addresses.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: So I never knew anything about anything going on.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: So what they're doing with um the women's center for sorry, it's the center for women's economic safety, is they've put out um these amazing papers where they're getting banks to sign up and financial institutions like the general insurers.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, and already 14 banks have adopted recommendations, and two insurance agencies have have um adopted the recommendations and they're becoming safer.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: So we're in the past they they were actually helping the perpetrators.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Now we're hopefully going to be starting to help the survivors.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the survivors and the victims.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: So in that situation, you basically find yourself, as you've described in great detail, which is really terrifying.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And as you say, you come from a good, hardworking, middle class family.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: You've acted with good faith and trust, and find yourself about to be evicted.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: I was in a million dollars in debt.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, without knowing it.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: I've got goosebumps for you.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Without knowing it, plus he that is that is official debt, plus owing a whole lot of friends and family money.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: And you had no idea.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: Just coming out of the woodwork and saying he owes me this amount, he owes me that amount.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: I was just in complete shock.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: And nobody had told me anything.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: So he'd obviously set he'd obviously set up relationships that KV had made sure that you were out of the loop.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: So he's obviously said to the friend, don't worry her, don't tell her, I'm assuming.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Stress her out.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Please don't stress her out, please don't tell her anything.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: And and nobody did.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: So that's why the transparency is so important.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: And so you found yourself also, you know, there were school fees not paid, there was the eviction notice, cars were being repossessed, you were in a situation where, as you describe, you were homeless.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: So I I mean, look, there are amazing organizations out there, and there are amazing people out there.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: And I was just very lucky to be enveloped in a lot of love, a lot of care, and a lot of incredible organizations and my beautiful community.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: But there were also people who turned their back.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people who believed him.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: He played the victim.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: He said I was abandoning him in his hour of need.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: And he played the victim well.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: That's what his narcissistic personality did.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people who turned around and said to me, You'll take him back.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: And I was trying to explain to them what he had done that I that I didn't even realize how bad it was, how he was continuing to do it, how he was yelling at us and abusing us and being so terrible in the way that he was continuing his behavior.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: And people, you know, some of the people just would not listen.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: It it was horrific.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: It's very challenging because I actually know it's frightening how common this is.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: But also, I think one of the problems is that it's once again, women's voices were not heard properly or clearly.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Like there's a sense that somehow that because you were married and because he was charismatic and and sort of, you know, owned the room, that somehow your voice shouldn't be heard.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you also so, how old were your children when you finally made the decision to leave?
21:59
SPEAKER_00: It was literally.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Literally a decision to escape, not even just.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: And it was so it was when he was in hospital that I knew that that was my only opportunity, gonna be my only opportunity.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: And I spoke to his the group of doctors that were looking after him at the time, a psychiatrist, a psychiatrist, psychologist, social worker, the whole group to say when would be the best time to actually tell him I have to escape.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: And my children at the time were 12 and 16.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: So my son was in VCE.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: It was it was just a horrific time, but any time is is horrific.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's hard, really hard.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: It was really, really hard, but it had to be done.
22:43
SPEAKER_01: And I just needed to do what I had to do.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: And I I felt a responsibility to him.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: We call it trauma bonding.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: I still felt like I like I had to look after him.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: And for a full year, I was still paying all his expenses and struggling to do so.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, paying his expenses.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: I made sure that I found somewhere for him to live, somewhere for me to live, somewhere for us to live while we were looking for somewhere more permanent to live.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, while we were both homeless, I looked for us for somewhere to live.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Um and he was he was terrible in that time.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: He was he was mean and he was horrible and he was it was it was a horrible time.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: It was it was horrific.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And then I found out that he was actually earning money and getting an insurance payment.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: And it was, I was actually, it was just more financial abuse in that period of time.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Are you serious?
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And that is just so you discovered that he actually had his own income, but he was and he was obviously putting that into a separate account.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And how did you discover that?
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Just out of interest.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Did you go seeking or it just happened?
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, he wasn't paying any child support, and he didn't pay child support for a long time.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: And we were in court, and I subpoenaed his bank records.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'd I I knew that there was one, I knew there were various banks, and I couldn't subpoena all of them, but I knew that there was one bank that he had not told me about.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: And I subpoenaed that bank record, and that's when I found it.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: I found a whole lot of money there.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: But he had already removed the butt money, but we could see the transaction of him.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: The transaction thousand dollars, and we could see a huge amount of money coming into his bank account of him getting paid.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: I could see him getting insurance, and I could see him getting money from the government.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: And so who actually helped you navigate the most?
24:39
SPEAKER_00: The lawyers, the family, your family.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Who who was it that you found at the coalface really?
24:45
SPEAKER_00: Because clearly it was good that you took him to court, and you, and you know, that's I suppose what we hope will be a resource.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: But that requires money, that requires, you know, lawyers to step up in ways sometimes have to do it with law support.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: I didn't take him to court.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: He was mostly taking he's kept me in, he kept me in court for for the last eight years, which was just a nightmare.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: He kept taking me back and back and back to try and see the children because my children, it was just not healthy for my children, kept delaying the process of getting divorced and getting a get, getting a Jewish divorce.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: Um I also had to eventually get intervention orders against him because it was just getting very, very dangerous for all of us.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: I was I was petrified that we were next.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, you mentioned how many women die and are dying every day.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: And I was sure that myself or the children or all of us were going to be dead.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: I I was absolutely petrified.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: The the first day I saw him in court, I was vomiting and so sick that I had to be taken away by an ambulance.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, you poor thing, Tammy.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: I just, it's just it really, you know, we've just, as you know, this week, there's been another woman they found.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is it's just by the grace of God and by your own strength that you have survived this and you have found a pathway through.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: But as you say, between our community between community and family, I'm assuming your family, um, you navigated your way through.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, to your you're absolutely right.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: My friends were amazing, some friends were amazing.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: My school community, the kids' school community was just incredible.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: They they held us.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: They they were my father came to every court appearance with me.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: He just was amazing.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, I some of the lawyers, the lawyers that you know lawyers get a really hard time because narcissists hire narcissistic lawyers.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: So the actual court system is just horrific.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: It just helps the perpetrator.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: But I was very lucky to have good lawyers on my side.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I couldn't afford lawyers.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Some of the time I had to stand up for myself in court.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: It's been it's been a rough journey.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's incredible what you've been through and the way that you've navigated and the way you found your strength and your coming through.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: But tell me, what would you like to see change?
27:26
SPEAKER_00: You talk about this alignment now with this great financial transition, which hopefully will be implemented, moving along that line of how we how a woman or a man, but a woman in particular often, needs to extricate herself.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: What would you like to see change and how what would have helped you more?
27:46
SPEAKER_01: I love that question.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, the first, there are a couple of things I want to mention.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: The first and most important thing is that we need to increase awareness in education.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think I think we need more needs to be done in terms of financial literacy at a young age.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, we teach we teach kids so much, but we don't teach financial literacy.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, teaching kids how to, kids and adults, I we just don't learn how to look after things like banking accounts, how to pay taxes, how to, how to do, do simple things.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: I had to go the next day after I found all those envelopes and open open a bank account and start taking care of my own money.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: I think we need more of that type of financial literacy and teaching people that it's important that there is transparency in economic in relationship on the economic side.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: And then also teaching them about the green flags of relationships.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: What does a healthy relationship look like?
28:45
SPEAKER_01: I think that starts in schools.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: I also think it's really important that we build uh an army of allies.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: How do we be allies?
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I think we're so scared to talk about these things.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've got this discomfort in talking about things like money, talking about abuse.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: And so it's time to sit with that discomfort.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: If someone comes to you, listen to them.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's so important to acknowledge what people are going through.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: We heal in connection.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: I can't explain how re-traumatizing it is when people don't listen and when people don't acknowledge you.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: It's so painful and and isolating.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: And isolating.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: I felt so isolated, so hurt by some of my best friends.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: And I understand that it was so hard because they had been groomed by this man.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: So just really allowing people to tell their stories and to witness their story, that's how we heal.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's something that we can all do.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: We can all listen to people, we can all acknowledge them, and every single person can become an ally.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's so many things that we can change, the court system needs to be changed.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Lawyers can, you know, there's so many great lawyers out there who are working more to help relationships heal.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: And and yes, there are relationships that can that need to come apart.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Not every relationship can can you know survive.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: And he's right.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: I agree with that.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: That's a very good point.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: And I think you're right about the sharing of stories, because that's sort of what we do on this platform.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: And and for others listening to go, oh, well, I can see that you made your way out.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: You actually got out.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, it was with a great trauma and a very long and arduous journey.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, now you have you've got your own business, your kids are through school, you know, you're rebuilding, and and so there is hope.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: And you offer that for a lot of people, um, just knowing that, you know, it is even in the most extreme situation.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: So once you had actually set up your own bank account and you'd you'd begun the process, and obviously he was taking you to court, etc.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about how we how we then got to, I suppose, your final exit in a sense where you finally felt freer.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look, it was a very long road.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I really lived in survival mode for a long time.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: The most important thing was making sure the children were safe.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: I was working, but it was like I was going to work and pretending everything was fine.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: I was going to school events and pretending everything was fine.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: I remember someone came up to me and asked me a question.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: I said, Does everybody know?
31:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, like obviously everybody knew.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: But I was working that that, you know, we had kept it to a minimum amount of people.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And I really wanted to just protect the children.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted them to have a good life.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And and I really have mostly been able to protect them and let them, they've they've really thrived, they've done really well.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: And the most important thing was that every day was as normal as possible for them.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: I really explained to them, as long as we were together, things were going to be okay.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: And and we got through.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, I've I've maintained my job.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: I know, you know, I just we just kept going.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: And mostly I I just knew what I needed to achieve every day.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, there were there were moments of light and moments of joy with I had amazing new friends that came into my life.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: And I've I've surrounded myself with very special people.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: And I I really want to focus on well-being, which is what I do at in my work at um where I teach.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I started writing the book.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: A friend of mine really encouraged me to put the book together so that I can go out there and I really want this to matter.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: I want to make a difference in as many people's lives as possible.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully that's what will happen.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a very good, I actually, the the title's very powerful, actually, of the book, The Grimmist of Fairy Tales.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: And the reason I found it a really great, I don't know how you came up with the title, but to me, I think it goes to the heart of the fairy tale that we all as young girls in particular grow up with, the expectation that at all costs we must, you know, go on.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, those old-fashioned notions, some of which are beautiful and some of which are poetic, but many of those, the fairy tale actually can be, you know, debilitating and trap somebody like yourself who's just trying to make it work and trust the prince, he'll look after me and all will be good.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, of course he wouldn't do that because, you know, he's he's riding on a horse and he's gonna look after me.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, you know, he was signing things up in your name you didn't know about, and all of the things that he was doing.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: So I do think the title is very powerful, The Grimms of Fairy Tales.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how that came to be.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: Did it take you long to come up with that, or was that just an intuitive title?
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Exactly what you've said.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, it I was I planned my life out.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: I knew what was going on, and I really did see it as, you know, everything was working out.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: I had this beautiful life planned out, and here was my prince, and it turned out to be a really not so good fairy tale.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: And it's really about smashing those myths, you know, and there was no fairy tale.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: And and you know what, it still turns out beautiful.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: I've got two gorgeous children, it's okay, and I really want people to know there's hope out there.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think often we believe that when things when there's trauma that life is not going to be okay, and that's I'm leading a beautiful, happy life, and there's hope for people who who have post-traumatic stress.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: There are happy days, and that about you know how we can find joy in in the day and how we can heal.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: And obviously, there's days that are terrible and days when I'm that happens all to everyone, you know, in some form.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: But but I think, yeah, you you you are still optimistic.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: You you sound like you've really worked your way through and are continuing to, I suppose, use your trauma as fuel for the next phase of your life rather than allowing it to, you know, repress and control you.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: You've had enough of that.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: You're, you know.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm never gonna let that be.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: And and and that's exactly so.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: The chapters are really around the different Grimm chapter, the different Grimm stories and the Brother Grimm stories, and that, you know, there's a different way to see it.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: It's really just about the lessons that I've learned and and how I'm forward.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's why we're so grateful that you've come on to talk to us at what I've learned.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: And I thank you very much for your time and wish you well.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure our listeners will uh read the book and certainly, you know, have heard your story, and it's a very powerful one.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Wishing you all the best.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind and curious.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Love to