Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Wallabies Not Releasing Players?! Debating ABs Picks, DMac’s Form & Jake White’s Bulls!

Transcript

Wallabies Not Releasing Players?! Debating ABs Picks, DMac’s Form & Jake White’s Bulls! · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
I just want to say, Jake, I was in the ice bar yesterday, yeah, twice. Yeah, mate.
0:05
It's right to say. Yeah, that's all right.
0:08
So I had to feel, I've got a bad knee and I had to do kick-offs for the locks.
0:13
So I did a lot of panting and I could feel this knee starting to swell up.
0:18
So I went into that ice bar. I hated it, but I did it twice.
0:22
So did you do it for the emotional adjustment knee? No, no, no, no, just...
0:27
Can I say to my balls about this up to that?
0:31
Okay, well, maybe you should show some courage tomorrow and go down to your neck
0:34
and then we can talk about how you'll benefit from it mentally as well.
0:38
I was trying.
0:39
The reality of Victor is that storm means...
0:42
If you got the water to that high, that storm means it was about 5' deep.
0:46
Sorry. Yes.
0:49
Welcome to Rivals. We have a couple of rivals.
0:58
An all-black and Sir John Kuhl and then a springbok in Victor Matfield.
1:02
And a friend of JK Rick Salizo and we don't get on.
1:05
Welcome out and John and we're looking forward to having to know what you're talking about this week.
1:10
First of all, let's get straight into it.
1:12
A bit of controversy. The lines have arrived in Australia and straight away they're complaining
1:16
that Joe Schmidt will not release his players, test players for the provincial games.
1:22
What do you think?
1:23
I think straight off the pat that I'm pleased that you're wearing your curtain today, Ricardo.
1:28
It's a shirt. It's a good change from most of your choices.
1:33
Yeah, look, I think I was thinking about this last year on the all-black tour.
1:38
One of the hardest things for me is that, you know, number...
1:43
Number is 30 to 36 on tour. Sometimes don't play for six weeks.
1:48
So I understand Joe not releasing his test players.
1:51
But I think some of the extended squad, you probably need to see.
1:55
I would say play the guys that are on the fringe, play the guys that are probably not going to be in your starting 23
2:03
and let them have a crack, you know.
2:06
You might have some positions. I know that most coaches, Victor, don't worry about the locks.
2:12
But they're worried about having their third hooker and their third, you know, their third half back
2:17
and their third team pretty well protected.
2:19
But some of the other guys, I think you should let them play.
2:23
Yeah, I just think back to 2009, unfortunately, the Bulls didn't get an opportunity to play their Lions.
2:30
But if the opportunity was there, I would have loved to play in that Bulls team
2:35
that won the three Super Rack Betrothies to have a crack
2:40
with a full Bulls team against the Lions.
2:43
I think there's a lot of the time these players that will never get an opportunity to play in a test match
2:50
or to play in a test match against the Lions. It's only once every 12 years.
2:54
And if that opportunity comes by, I think you want to play in that provincial team with your full strength team
3:01
and see what you can do.
3:03
From a player's perspective, I think it will be sad for those guys to miss out on those opportunities.
3:10
I can understand from Joe Schmidt, he's probably putting the test matches as he's focused.
3:18
But I'm with Jacob, maybe the first 15 or if he's like 10-11 key players
3:25
or maybe even less, that has played a lot of rugby.
3:29
Then say, listen, those five, six guys or even the week before the first test to pull them out.
3:36
But I think it's a great opportunity for the players to get an opportunity to play against the British and Irish Lions.
3:44
So yeah, if I was a player and I was in the squad, I would have asked the coach,
3:48
please let me play with my club.
3:51
I think that's a really interesting point, Victor. I don't think the players probably now are as forthright as our eras.
3:58
I was very fortunate, I played the Lions in a series twice.
4:05
But the first game I played against the Lions was for my province, Auckland.
4:11
We beat them 13-12, which was a highlight at that time.
4:16
I didn't get to feel like I've played them again.
4:20
I think some of the players now probably don't really have that forthright.
4:26
The game's changing, right? They deal through agents, they do other...
4:31
I'm not criticising, it's just a different way that they live.
4:35
So, you know, now they would go and say to the coach, I want to play.
4:39
I want to play that game and, you know, like you'd have a chance to say your piece
4:46
and then, you know, the coach might go, we'll go and play them, you know?
4:50
I don't remember back in 2005, Jake White, after the train nations back then,
4:57
wanted the spring box to rest while it was curry cup back home.
5:02
And I know the same, the bulls-guys, I was kept in the win teams, you'd listen.
5:08
We've just won the curry cup twice in a row, we want to play.
5:11
We love playing curry cup, why do you want us just to do training but we can't play on weekends?
5:17
That's why we play the game, it's to play on weekends,
5:20
rather let us rest in the offseason, whatever, but while we're playing,
5:25
we're loving it, we're enjoying it, we think we...
5:29
We, in good form, when we play a lot of games going into an end of year tour.
5:35
Yeah, and he wasn't very happy with us because he said we put the bulls ahead of the spring box,
5:43
but for us it was just, we loved playing for our club and loved winning competitions with our clubs as well.
5:49
I mean, I think that whole player fatigue conversation that's probably been around now for, you know,
5:56
for 10 or 15 years probably is really interesting because sometimes when you talk to the players,
6:02
it's the trainings that they hate, you know?
6:04
Yeah.
6:05
I always remember talking to Lauren Stalalia who said, you know,
6:10
the greatest things about Gats is we wouldn't train during the week.
6:13
And like, we'd be getting out into the games and we'd just feel incredibly fresh.
6:17
I mean, it's probably a little bit easier, Victor, when you've got a...
6:21
I mean, because you're with the Japanese side now, they're trying to get these sides ready for a test match, you know?
6:26
It's hard, but if you're a club side by the end of the season,
6:30
do you really need to train?
6:31
You know, just let them, let them out there and play, maybe it, maybe, you know, the odd strategic.
6:36
Yeah, just with the bulls as well.
6:38
A week at the same.
6:39
I mean, the first few weeks of super rugby would have been really hard in the week as well.
6:44
But from that season, there would be a lot of days where they say, you know what?
6:50
Don't need to train today, just go home, go refresh them up, get back ready.
6:55
We want you ready for the game.
6:57
If you play 20 games together, what more can they teach you in the week?
7:02
You know what you want to do.
7:04
Maybe one or two trainings.
7:06
And I think we're going to talk later about the barbarian games.
7:09
The barbarians have showed it.
7:11
I mean, half played in a barbarian team where we had one training, half drunk,
7:16
went out on the Saturday and we played fantastic.
7:18
We actually beat the all blacks.
7:20
So, sometimes we overdo the training part.
7:25
Especially at international level.
7:28
I mean, to have three jump sessions in a test week is just crazy.
7:32
I think you want to go out there.
7:37
You should be strong already.
7:39
You can't get stronger.
7:40
But you want to play games.
7:42
I would never want to miss a springboard game.
7:44
So whenever someone said, listen, you need to miss the end of your two or two race.
7:48
So this game, we need two races.
7:50
I want to play.
7:51
Rather, race me on a Monday Tuesday.
7:53
And then I'll be ready on a Saturday.
7:55
Of course, they raised you on the Saturday.
7:57
But they let you train fitness and everything in a week.
8:00
So yeah, I've never understood that.
8:02
It took that a lot.
8:04
What do you think, losing first up to Argentina?
8:07
Lots of people were saying it's a shock result.
8:10
But really, is that giving Argentina the credit for the team that they are?
8:13
I think that it's probably a blessing in disguise.
8:17
I mean, when you listen to Farrell talk, he's pretty harsh.
8:21
Some strong messages for the players.
8:24
You know, a couple of the tries, they're full on attack and to set.
8:27
Argentina are a great side.
8:29
I don't know where everyone, every year, underestimates them.
8:32
The thing I like about Argentina is actually the real pace.
8:35
They've got incredibly pace, good pace out wide, good kicking game.
8:40
You know, tough forwards.
8:41
They might not be the flashes, but they're tough.
8:43
So I think the Lions, who have just come together, played like a team that's just come together.
8:49
Like, I actually thought it was perfect for Farrell.
8:54
You know, he said afterwards, you can't make that many errors.
8:57
You know, you can't be that sloppy.
8:59
What he's come from is, you know, probably one of the most organised rugby teams in the world in Ireland.
9:05
And you know, we've spoken about this before.
9:07
You can't get the ball off, it gets very frustrating.
9:09
One of the things they don't do is don't make errors and don't have turnovers.
9:13
But when you've got all these, you know, these nations coming together and they've been training.
9:19
You know, for a week or 10 days or whatever they've been together.
9:23
It's to be expected.
9:25
I didn't look into the result as anything other than a bloody good hit out.
9:31
I don't know why people were so surprised with that result.
9:34
It's the first week for the Lions.
9:37
They haven't trained a lot together.
9:39
I mean, if you take Argentina, they've been above Australia and the World Rangies,
9:45
probably for the last four or five years.
9:48
They've played three semi-finals at World Cups, the last three semi-finals or four.
9:56
So they have quality side.
9:57
And especially this last two years, I mean, they've beaten New Zealand in New Zealand.
10:01
They've beaten South Africa.
10:03
They've beaten everyone out there.
10:05
So it's a quality side and I mean, if you're not organised against them,
10:10
they can't attack, transition attack is probably some of the bases in the world.
10:16
So the moment the play breaks up, opens up, they're very, very dangerous sides.
10:23
So, yeah, Argentina, I think, was a good eye opener for the Lions for what's coming.
10:29
But I think if we look at the team that they've picked this week for the next game,
10:34
it looks pretty close, I think, to what the team would look like in the first test.
10:40
I think the other thing that the Argentinians do well is they're a real traditional rugby nation now.
10:48
They're really passionate about the game.
10:50
So to play the Lions for a lot of those guys would be the biggest game.
10:55
So they were up for it as well.
10:57
You know, like the Lions don't tour Argentina.
11:01
You know, if you're Argentinian, you don't get to play the Lions.
11:03
That'll be a jersey, that'll be a scalp that you'll take to your grave, you know.
11:08
And so I think with Argentina, like Victor said, they've beaten everybody,
11:12
but they're a problem in the championship as consistency.
11:16
You know, they might go out and beat the All Blacks and then the next week,
11:18
the All Blacks come out and beat them by 30.
11:21
So they're looking for consistency when they're up.
11:23
They can beat anyone and they would have been up for the Lions for all the reasons I said.
11:27
So, you know, I think just good learnings.
11:30
I grew with you, Victor.
11:32
It's going to be interesting because you don't in the Lions,
11:36
you're not going to get a lot of chance to show you your stuff.
11:38
So there might be some guys in the team in the game against Argentina that have done their first test,
11:47
you know, their first test possibilities, some damage because they go out there.
11:51
And if you coach doesn't want you to throw 50-50 passes or he's looking for players
11:56
that have a low error, right, then maybe the way you played against Argentina
12:00
might cost you your first test match because you might take you out of consideration.
12:04
So as far as the big pitch is concerned, no one will give a shit, right?
12:09
No one will even talk about the Argentinian game if they win the series.
12:13
So I don't think it's anyone to worry too much.
12:16
And I think that's the difference.
12:18
I think for Argentina, like you say, that does have full on test match.
12:22
One's in a lifetime opportunity.
12:25
And for the Lions, it's probably just a hit out before we really go into a,
12:31
almost like a practice game.
12:33
And I think if you're not 100% on mentally, they're for Argentina and you will be in trouble.
12:40
So, yeah, I don't think Pharaoh will really be that upset.
12:44
You probably just want more out of his players.
12:47
He wants them to honor that jersey every time they go into the pitch.
12:52
But there was also, I mean, that guy like Duane, Duane, Duane from Ireland,
12:58
I was a Phenomever, hasn't played for two months.
13:02
So there's a lot of players that just got a hit out as well because they haven't played
13:07
a lot of practice in the last few weeks.
13:09
Often when you're putting a new team together, the players go in the field
13:12
and they think too much because they're trying to execute what they learn.
13:15
Well, that's one of the biggest issues right with line out play until it becomes,
13:20
until it becomes like part of what you do every single day.
13:25
Sometimes you overthink stuff.
13:27
And that's what I saw the Lions do.
13:29
They're just trying to put all this information onto the football field.
13:32
Yeah, so as you said, Victor, they've named their team for the Western Force.
13:36
And you know, you've got Gibson Park and Finn Russell and the inside backs
13:41
with to a Polo 12.
13:44
So that's a really good combination, you know.
13:46
And obviously you've got the combination of the 10-12 that have played a lot together.
13:50
Yeah, I really like this team.
13:53
Probably in the forwards, one or two changes if I picked the team.
13:58
But if you look at that back line, I think it's as close as you can get for the first test match.
14:07
JK will probably know more, but I think Gibson Park is definitely number one.
14:12
I think Finn Russell should be number one.
14:15
Freeman and James Lowe.
14:17
Sounds like Dwan didn't have a great game.
14:20
I didn't watch it.
14:22
So he didn't do it himself any favours.
14:24
And then that center combination has been so good for Scotland.
14:31
And then at 15, he's a kid in probably the safe option.
14:36
Although I think what's the Scottish fullback plays in France.
14:42
I think he can be a real option as well to start at 15.
14:46
I don't think this is going to be their test lineup, but I think it's going to be damn close.
14:51
I think Gibson Park.
14:54
I don't know where Bundy RK sits.
14:58
It's good try again the other day.
15:00
There seems to be this real push vector towards getting over the advantage line in the midfield.
15:07
When you think about a midfield drawing and passing and setting up the wingers,
15:14
it doesn't happen anymore because of the offensive line.
15:17
So does Bundy RK come into that situation a little bit later just because he's going to get you over the advantage line?
15:24
Is he going to be an impact player for the same reason?
15:27
So for me, it seems to me with the selections I'm seeing around the world
15:32
and the way that the fences and the line speeds going,
15:35
we're going to be seeing a different type of center.
15:40
We're going to have to see guys that are going to get you over the advantage line so you can get a roll on.
15:44
But the others like Gibson Park when he's on form, he's one of the best in the world.
15:49
Yeah, two blotto, definitely can get you, but he can get you over that advantage line as well.
15:54
And just that combination with you, him and you Jones,
15:58
you Jones really running hard off him and then with him doing all those option playing,
16:03
are they hit you or pulling it down the back to Fin Russell?
16:07
So I think that combination of the three actually, I think it's a very strong combination.
16:16
Well, Fin Russell becomes the Fin Russell because the way we used to have it,
16:21
we used to have one pretty, pretty hard running in our day,
16:25
one pretty hard running midfielder and then someone who could play.
16:29
But when Fin Russell's on his game, he slows the defensive line up just because he's such a dancer.
16:35
So now what we're seeing in centers is actually guys that can actually both of them,
16:40
like you said, two blotto running off.
16:44
And we're seeing it in the all blacks with, if you look at Rico Yuani,
16:49
the way he plays today compared to when he started playing,
16:53
it's that Jordy Barrett and we've just seen Toma Toma,
16:59
like you go, wow, this is one of the biggest midfields we've seen.
17:09
Just on that JK.
17:10
So you mentioned the all black teams been named this week and they've gone for a big, big solid midfield.
17:16
Are you against Ricardo?
17:18
No, no wingers, mate.
17:20
The least wingers is in a team that better.
17:23
We've always hit it.
17:25
They just need to chase the ball, kicked up in the end, chase it.
17:30
Yuani need to for that.
17:34
You know, when you look at, so I'm just looking at the team here,
17:38
you know, I've already spoken to about Tava Tava now,
17:42
who's like, you know, they say he can play on the wing.
17:46
You know, I was really disappointed that Lee Roy Carter didn't get in,
17:49
because if you look at this side, there's only one thing.
17:52
One thing, as a winger, Victor, I know you only want us to chase the balls.
17:56
In fact, in my day, when we played like Victor,
17:59
if we dropped it, they wouldn't give it to us for the rest of the day.
18:02
So you look at this midfield.
18:05
So we've got Anton Lennon Brown.
18:07
He's probably a bit of a playmaker, great community.
18:10
You know, great communicator, great player, Jordy Barrett.
18:14
Rico Yuani, to interplay, you know, like Chiefs,
18:19
Billy Proctor, a little bit of a dancer, got a little bit going.
18:23
And then, you know, Tava Tava Narwai.
18:25
That is just a massive midfield.
18:28
And then we've got Caleb Clarke and Sebri Ries as the two chases of the balls, Victor.
18:35
Right?
18:36
But it's right to be changing in front of ours because of the defensive line,
18:41
because of the speed of the defensive line,
18:44
is the game as we know it, you know, just changed so much.
18:48
I think you say that, but if you look at South Africa,
18:51
yes, we've been going with a two big strong midfielders,
18:56
even a JC Krille at 13 with a big powerful high work rate.
19:02
Probably not a distributor, but against South Africa has gone for the smaller,
19:09
quicker steppers on the wings and on fullbacks.
19:13
So although at 12, 13, we're very solid.
19:18
Russia is definitely going on the outside for guys that can score from anywhere on the pitch
19:23
and that can get you momentum with footwork rather than just power.
19:27
No, I think it's really interesting the way it's gone.
19:29
I don't think New Zealand has gone that way.
19:32
But when I look around the world, one of the things that would concern me a little bit about the old black selection
19:37
would be that.
19:38
That's why I thought Lee Roy Carter might make it just because he's just out now.
19:43
When you think about it, when was the last time you saw a team score from set pace?
19:49
Oh, if you look at Bordeaux.
19:52
If you look at Bordeaux in France at the moment,
19:56
I mean, their attacking style is just unbelievable.
19:59
I mean, they've got two wingers as well that's just magic.
20:03
So maybe things are starting to change again towards the attacking side
20:09
because I mean, France is definitely pushing for being the number one team in the world.
20:14
And if you look at the Invested Cup or the Champions Cup,
20:19
the two French teams that played in the final, both teams,
20:24
they play what's in front of them.
20:26
They're not that structured.
20:28
I actually went through all Bordeaux stuff yesterday again.
20:32
And I mean, all the structures not there, they just like to get momentum.
20:36
And once they get momentum, they go to space.
20:39
And they put their fast wingers into space and they score tries.
20:42
And they score a lot of tries.
20:44
Can you do that at Testman, Slovakia?
20:46
Can you do that at Testman?
20:48
I think you can.
20:49
No one else.
20:50
France is very close to playing the same style when they've got the right 9 and 10 there as well.
20:56
JK, I asked you for some analysis of the all black rugby team that's just been named.
21:01
And so far, you've just mentioned the backs.
21:03
Like there are forwards in the team that have been named as well.
21:06
Yeah, look, I thought, I thought the biggest talking points were who missed out actually.
21:13
You know, and I will talk about it back straight away.
21:16
And Havi Lee, who's had an amazing season.
21:19
I mean, I think if you talk about the forwards, I really like the locks.
21:23
You know, I think we've got Fabian coming in who I think is an amazing young man.
21:31
You'd like him, Victor, just a really hard working big man.
21:35
Right.
21:36
And when you think about New Zealand since Rodi left, we haven't had that massive body, you know.
21:44
So I think he's going to be amazing.
21:46
I think Dalton Papa Lee missing out was really interesting.
21:50
What happened there?
21:51
Because he was like the next big thing in New Zealand and then all of a sudden last year,
21:57
they just start not playing it.
21:59
Did something happen there?
22:01
He had a couple of injuries.
22:03
Like he was, for me, one of the inform players a few years ago, you know,
22:07
you'd see him out wide, you'd see him making breaks.
22:10
I think the injuries have cost him consistency playing.
22:14
But also he looks like he's got a little bit bigger and he's lost a little bit of that pace.
22:19
I don't know if that's the case.
22:22
And I think what they've done with Duprasi Garefi was he is really, really good at a couple of things.
22:32
You know, like he is great over the ball.
22:35
He's an aggressive ball carrier and makes his tackles.
22:39
But I think this season he's really concentrated on his decision making over the ball.
22:44
So I thought that was an interesting one.
22:47
I'm him missing out.
22:49
So for me, it was more who missed out and who didn't get in.
22:55
But also the combination.
22:57
I know I talk about the backs a lot, Ricardo.
22:59
But, you know, when have you ever had an all black side that's just had two wingers?
23:05
So you go, when I look at those centers, who's going to be the wing?
23:09
You know?
23:10
I mean, you guys already know how much I love Rico you are, and I always thought he could have been one of the best wings in the world.
23:18
He prefers to play center.
23:20
You know, he's got pace.
23:21
He's a big man.
23:22
When he played on the wing early in his career, he was outstanding.
23:26
You know, with the center game changing and him being used as, you know, a battering ram.
23:33
The other great thing about Rico is just his improvement.
23:37
His improvement from a defensive point of view.
23:42
He's like one of the best, right?
23:44
Then I thought, you know, like one guy who I think has been amazing, and I know he's a little bit injured,
23:50
who I think is really like a good red Ryan Victor, as you and that.
23:55
So I'm sure you and Eddie Jones would enjoy after you've been working 24 hours is Luke Jacobson.
24:03
You know, I think Luke Jacobs is one of those guys that you actually need to start.
24:08
Like I just think he's one of those guys that just, and I know we're not injured.
24:12
But I've been really impressed just with his consistency.
24:16
And so I think Dalton's been a little bit, you know, a little bit unfortunate.
24:21
I think Belle, you know, young hooker coming through.
24:24
He misses out to the new boy.
24:27
So there's, it's an interesting team, but I think the mix is more interesting than the other stuff.
24:33
Oh, I appreciate you talking about some forwards.
24:35
And so Victor, they just named the, so they're going to team to play the barbar.
24:40
Are you happy with it?
24:42
Yeah, a lot of youngsters getting opportunity.
24:46
Yannandrik Vesel's that was.
24:49
It's probably our third choice, Rooka as well, with a lot of injuries at Lucet,
24:54
C.E. Gates, opportunity.
24:57
Asinati in club Kanya.
24:59
I think it's going to be his first taste match.
25:02
He doesn't look like a springbok when he puts on that jersey and his stitches over.
25:07
But he's been really good, actually, for the Lions.
25:10
I mean, he scrums well.
25:12
He carries a lot and he really gets involved, although you think he won't last more than five minutes.
25:17
Somehow you get a body around.
25:20
And then, yeah, John looked a prayer back in the squad again, but picking him at lock.
25:26
And then our backline, I think, I really like the backline.
25:33
I think J.K. will like it as well.
25:35
Grant Williams back, Sasha Feinberg.
25:40
At 10.
25:41
Goodly orange.
25:42
Damian Williams said 12.
25:45
It's time for him to come through for the box as well, then J.C. at 13.
25:49
And Ethan Rooka, I don't know how much you watched your C.E.
25:54
But Ethan Rooka is one of the young players that really stood up for the shots.
25:59
I can also play in the 12th, all the 13th jersey.
26:03
And then Abalele Fassi back to his face in the last few games.
26:07
So, yeah, a backline that especially against barbarians,
26:12
the defense might not be right up there.
26:15
I think this backline can really do well.
26:18
What does South Africa need to get out of this game against the Babas?
26:22
Yeah, I think they probably just want that cohesion as a team again.
26:25
They haven't played since November.
26:29
It's always dangerous against the barbarians,
26:32
because when everyone's expecting you to win
26:35
and they've put a pretty good team together, it sounds like.
26:40
And just for these guys to get back in form again,
26:43
we've seen in the past few years our players that probably struggle a little bit
26:50
with their clubs all of a sudden when they get in this springboard team,
26:55
they're different players.
26:56
So I think that's what Russia would be looking for,
26:59
guys that when they put on that green and gold stand up, perform better,
27:04
play for the team and understand the structures that they want to play,
27:09
understand the work rate that they want from the players.
27:13
And yeah, I think if you can see that,
27:16
you would probably have already planned for the next three-four games.
27:19
So then really things players can play them into the team, out of the team.
27:25
You'll definitely give the guys opportunities the way he wants to.
27:29
Is it too early, Victor, for Russia to show his innovation?
27:36
Is it too far away from the World Cup for him to invent another bomb squad?
27:41
When you look at his side and when you look at the way he sort of innovates and changes,
27:45
are you seeing any inkling of, OK, he's going to play more expensive game,
27:51
he's picking a side that's going to be able to do something new and different?
27:57
Yeah, I think with Russia you'll always see new things.
28:00
I think this is going to be an interesting year for him.
28:04
I think if he wants to make a few changes,
28:09
especially because there's a few of the double World Cup winners
28:13
that's getting to that H way.
28:16
With some of them you probably need to make a hard call now and say,
28:19
listen, I don't think you're going to make it to the next World Cup.
28:23
These young kids coming through and we need to give them taste matches,
28:29
give them taste caps, give them experiences in that difficult situations.
28:35
So yeah, I think that's probably going to be our tough year.
28:40
I said it, we've got a tough year playing New Zealand away from home,
28:44
twice playing France away, playing Ireland away.
28:47
So it's not easy to bring in all this new boys.
28:52
But knowing Russia, I mean, he puts youngsters on the field,
28:56
he backs him and he makes them believe in himself.
28:59
Does he care, and this is probably a wrong way to put it, but anyway, who cares?
29:04
What do you care about losing a couple of test matches to find the future
29:13
in between World Cups?
29:15
Yeah, the one thing with Russia is I haven't seen him do that.
29:19
I mean, if you think about Russia giving those young,
29:24
that young team of chance against, I think,
29:27
Russian Australia and Brisbane, was it the second test match in Australia?
29:33
Put out a whole new young team with a lot of experience on the bench
29:38
and then at half time when you were struggling,
29:41
so any other coach would just put the experience on
29:44
and say, listen, go, close this game for me, we don't want to lose.
29:48
Where Russia really believes in the guys and doesn't matter,
29:51
we put on the field, those guys believe they're the spring box side.
29:54
There's never a B side, there's never people getting opportunities.
29:58
It's all about you good enough.
30:00
If I pick you, I think you're good enough to play in World Cup Final to those.
30:04
Whichever game they play, he makes those guys believe it's like a World Cup Final
30:09
and they're the best to do their job.
30:11
So I don't think Russia likes losing games,
30:15
although you'll give people opportunities, he wouldn't want to lose.
30:20
Jack, I just question for you, based on the squad that you've seen.
30:25
What about Razor?
30:26
What do you see here as a near-to?
30:28
Good question, finally, Ricardo.
30:31
I think it's a massive year for Razor.
30:34
I think what the World was expecting and what New Zealand Rugby was expecting
30:40
was a little bit more innovation from Razor.
30:44
And I understand that the most important thing is to get off to a good start,
30:50
understand your team, understand your players.
30:53
So I think it's a big year for him as well.
30:56
I think the public will expect him to come up with some new stuff.
31:01
When you look at that Super Rugby Final, I don't know if you saw it, Victor,
31:06
but it was produced an hour at times, 32 rucks.
31:10
You probably love sitting there watching 32 consistent rucks
31:15
with forwards bashing the shit out of each other,
31:17
but doesn't like my boat, you know what I mean?
31:21
I think for Razor showing some innovation, bringing some new stuff to the table,
31:27
playing a little bit differently, will be what the public will expect.
31:33
You know, we all expect them to win.
31:35
That's just an expectation that's given.
31:37
So I think it's a big year for him.
31:40
I think he'll come under a lot more scrutiny,
31:43
which him and the staff will come under, and that's natural,
31:46
but there is a reaction to that.
31:49
So, you know, I'm an all black fan.
31:52
I love them.
31:53
I think to win the next World Cup,
31:57
then I think we need to start showing some dominance a couple of years out.
32:02
And I'm hoping to see that this year.
32:04
Jackie, you said the Super Rugby don't give you test match experience.
32:08
That final was pretty much a test match.
32:10
I thought a lot of kicking, defense, dominating pressure.
32:16
And isn't that how the Crusaders win tournaments?
32:19
Isn't it not about making mistakes,
32:22
just doing the right things at the right time?
32:25
Great set, peace.
32:28
Great pressure again.
32:30
That's how I feel they win trophies.
32:33
It's never been with innovation.
32:36
I mean, that's something the Blues always try,
32:38
but that's why they never win trophies.
32:40
Yeah, thanks for that, Victor.
32:42
That's pretty good of you.
32:44
We'll get into the booth tonight.
32:46
We did win last year, by the way.
32:48
You did.
32:49
I know why.
32:50
But you had a big pack or four,
32:53
so they just dominated that.
32:54
They wanted to try the whole time.
32:56
Yeah, but your bills shut themselves in the final.
32:58
So we won't go there.
32:59
So let's call the truce on this right now.
33:02
My friend.
33:04
Yeah, look, I think what surprised me,
33:08
and people were talking about the Crusaders.
33:10
And I will say that's one thing.
33:12
Everyone wants to build a franchise, go and study them.
33:15
They are incredible.
33:16
And I'm only going to say this a couple of times,
33:18
because I'm a Blues tragic.
33:19
But they are amazing.
33:20
What they've done coming back from a ship season last year.
33:24
You know, it was amazing.
33:27
But also, I thought the chiefs completely lost their way
33:30
in the second half.
33:32
I don't know what the hell was happening with that highball kick,
33:35
but it's like they just stopped playing.
33:38
I mean, you know, you know that the Crusaders
33:41
are going to kick you to the corner, or when there's a game in the balance,
33:44
they're going to put a highball up, and they're going to contest it.
33:47
The chiefs went missing, like four of those highballs bounced.
33:52
Right?
33:53
And that they couldn't get any momentum.
33:55
So I think the chiefs, once again,
33:59
didn't really put a hell of a lot of pressure on the Crusaders.
34:03
And I'm not taking anything away from Crusaders, what I said.
34:06
But I thought, and it was real interesting,
34:08
they made a nearly move and bought Sean Stevens and Off.
34:10
So there was some confusion.
34:11
I also thought the all blacks and the Crusaders incredibly stepped up.
34:16
Will Jordan was outstanding.
34:18
You know, and we're used to seeing Will Jordan score tries.
34:21
But his catching of the highball under pressure to give his team momentum
34:26
from a kick that I've done was incredible.
34:29
I thought Cody Taylor was once again incredible.
34:33
I thought the Crusaders bench outplayed the chiefs bench.
34:38
Crusaders bomb squad.
34:40
It wasn't a bomb squad, Victor.
34:42
It was not a bomb squad.
34:43
Okay.
34:44
It was not a bomb squad.
34:45
It was actually, it was actually the, I think that the, you know,
34:50
the chiefs bench will be a little bit disappointed in themselves.
34:54
And I think for me, if you want Damien McKenzie to be a, you know,
35:01
a force you've got to get over that advantage line and you've got to get in front football.
35:05
Sorry.
35:06
Sorry, Jake.
35:07
Maybe a question.
35:08
Will that be another question mark beyond the name of Damien McKenzie?
35:15
Can he win big games for a team?
35:18
Can he play in big test matches?
35:20
Yes, he can.
35:21
I believe he can.
35:23
For me, what it looked like was the team actually lost belief with 20 to go.
35:28
And there was a little bit of confusion around the highball.
35:32
Normally, you see Damien back taking that highball.
35:35
I mean, he'll be sitting there ruling that Miss Keck because that would have changed the momentum of the game that, that kicking missed.
35:42
So Damien McKenzie, if you want him to be great, he needs to be Damien McKenzie.
35:47
He doesn't need to sit in the pocket.
35:49
He needs an advantage line ball carrying team where he's running onto the ball.
35:55
If you don't give him those, then you better off playing another team.
35:59
So your team has to perform for him to be great.
36:02
And then he'll win the game for you.
36:04
But I think to answer your question directly, if you're in a snail mate, I think he's still learning.
36:12
And this is where I've been a little bit critical.
36:14
And I'm pleased he's had a full season.
36:16
I think he played a couple of games at full bat at 10.
36:19
Because I know that you lock, you just push the, you know, you just push the bloody props as hard as you can.
36:25
And then by the time you look up, it's all over.
36:28
But the interesting thing about a first five for me is, you know,
36:33
it's one of the hardest positions on the football field to be able to control,
36:40
to take a moment where the team's under pressure and do the right kick.
36:44
You don't just do that.
36:47
You've got to play at weekend, week out.
36:49
I know Damien will learn from that weekend.
36:52
So did he play a great tactical game when he sat in the pocket?
36:56
I don't think he had the chance.
36:58
I think the Crusaders completely dominated the second half.
37:02
And if he gets a football team around him,
37:05
and I don't know what is second five incentives like,
37:08
but one other thing that Anton Leonard Brown gives you as a first five,
37:11
is you're standing there and you've got so many decisions to make.
37:14
He's giving you great input.
37:16
So I think they missed him in that final.
37:19
So the answer is yes, he can step into that space,
37:22
but you also need to realize that he needs a team around them
37:26
that's going to give him all the X-factor things like
37:29
advanced line running front football.
37:32
Okay.
37:33
Just a question for you, Victor, about Mario Atoja,
37:37
do you think any question marks over him as the captain after that first loss?
37:43
No, I don't think so.
37:45
I haven't played that much against him and I don't know him that well,
37:48
but I've got quite a few guys that played with him,
37:52
and it sounds like he's really a team-man.
37:56
I think sometimes he can go overboard on the field
37:59
to a celebrations and stuff,
38:01
but that's probably an English thing.
38:05
The English like to do it, the Irish like to celebrate little victories
38:10
where I think South Africa and New Zealand feel like it's their job.
38:14
But yeah, it sounds like he's a leader that leads from the front.
38:19
A guy like Taurus will be missing that group
38:23
because he's the natural leader of that Irish team
38:27
that I still believe will have most of the guys in the first taste match.
38:32
So yeah, it's for him as well.
38:35
It will be tasting because he needs to get the confidence
38:39
of all the players around him,
38:41
especially the Irish boys, I think,
38:44
because the Irish boys probably know the coach
38:47
and know how they want to play.
38:49
So he needs to learn that, he needs to adapt as well.
38:52
So it might take a week or two for him
38:55
just to take full control of the team.
38:57
I remember seeing Mario play in the under 20s in New Zealand.
39:03
And I thought he went like this.
39:06
But then I thought he plateaued
39:08
and I wasn't seeing him improving at all.
39:11
And I think the captaincy of England
39:14
and the captaincy of the line
39:16
will bring the best out in him.
39:19
I agree with all the things that Victor's spoken about.
39:23
He will need to win the respect of all of them.
39:27
And you do that by, if you're captain playing your style.
39:32
There's different styles isn't there, Victor?
39:34
Those that just put their head down arse up
39:36
and just work hard don't say a lot.
39:38
And there's others that say, you know,
39:40
the right thing at the right time.
39:42
And if you can get that combination.
39:44
So I think, you know, Mario for me has been
39:48
and is a world class player that flattened a wee bit.
39:52
And now the last two seasons,
39:54
I'm starting to see him come back and be a bit more dominant.
39:57
And I think the captaincy will make him, you know,
40:01
an absolute leader of men.
40:04
And if he can pull this off,
40:06
I think he's done a great job with England.
40:08
And I think if he can pull this lines one off,
40:10
it'll give him that extra motivation
40:13
to continue growing, you know.
40:15
And I think one of the biggest challenges now, you know,
40:18
we spoke about Dalton Papa Lee before, you know.
40:21
And I think mainly it's probably the injuries.
40:24
But if you don't grow at this level,
40:26
then people catch you up very quick.
40:29
And finding that motivation we can week out to keep growing
40:32
is not easy.
40:33
I don't think for the modern player.
40:34
So that's where I think Mario is at.
40:37
You know, he's got the opportunity to go down as one of the greatest.
40:40
If he can, you know, finish these next few years as a great leader,
40:43
win some shit.
40:44
You know, they win the series.
40:46
They win the series made.
40:47
He's set up for life.
40:48
If you win a series as a Lions captain, man, you know,
40:52
you'd be great.
40:53
And the same.
40:54
Even against Australia.
40:57
Make, don't forget you're working with Eddie.
41:00
Yeah, bloody.
41:01
Careful over there.
41:02
What you're saying, man.
41:03
Just to just because you're getting a little bit cheeky, Victor,
41:06
I just want to know what's going on at the balls.
41:09
I mean, obviously I'm a big, big reader of report,
41:12
the newspaper and there's saying some stories that there's been
41:16
a bit of a player revolts in a bit of a assistant coach
41:19
is asking for change.
41:20
So what can you tell us?
41:21
I was done on the semi final.
41:23
I was working for Super Sport.
41:24
I went down on the pitch and I spoke to one of the system coaches
41:28
and I said, listen, I was at going.
41:30
And then out of the blue something actually dropped it.
41:34
They're not very happy with Jake at the moment.
41:36
And I thought that's pretty weird.
41:38
And then I mean, they actually beat the pretty good chalks team
41:43
and then on the Sunday I see into Jake.
41:46
I still think three out of four UIC finals,
41:50
pretty good as a coach.
41:53
But we've seen with Jake, unfortunately, wherever he's gone,
41:58
he really do well for two, three years.
42:00
And then all of a sudden something happened.
42:04
And being coached by him, he expect a lot of the players.
42:09
And it's all about what the players can give for the team.
42:13
And probably not, he doesn't care that much about away
42:17
from Rakpie.
42:20
Is it going well with their family?
42:22
Does he give them extra time to spend with their family?
42:25
Does he make the family part of it?
42:28
Is he worried about the players after Rakpie?
42:31
Can they do other stuff?
42:33
He just want them all to focus on Rakpie.
42:35
And I know at the sharks that was a problem.
42:38
And at this day to the Bulls, I don't know what was happening.
42:41
I mean, they've played in three UIC finals.
42:45
UIC finals.
42:46
So I think the record shows they're doing a good job
42:49
to coaching stuff.
42:51
Yes, they haven't gotten over the line.
42:54
But most of the other teams haven't gotten to a final.
42:57
So I know there's a big board meeting today.
43:01
And it sounds like he lost the change in the end.
43:04
He's a system coach.
43:06
So it will probably be him staying with the whole new coaching
43:11
staff.
43:12
Maybe you wanted to new senior players in leadership roles
43:17
or unfortunately, he might have to go.
43:22
JK, you've been in that situation.
43:25
Unfortunately, we're behind you.
43:28
All these things are going on.
43:30
Where players are talking to chairman's and CEOs
43:34
and stuff like that.
43:35
I mean, is your frustration as a coach sometimes
43:38
that you just want those conversations to be direct?
43:41
In Jake's defence, if the players have come to him
43:46
as a group and told him they want change
43:50
and his assistants have come to him and said they want change
43:55
and he hasn't, then you have to die by your sword.
43:58
If they haven't, they're just gutless.
44:00
And that's unacceptable in our game.
44:03
I think my situation was different Ricardo
44:06
because if I had taken the blues to the final and lost,
44:11
you know, should Clayton McMillan move on?
44:14
No way.
44:15
He's done a great job.
44:16
They've just lost finals.
44:17
You know, like, does he need to change a couple of things?
44:19
Yes, but he's made the final.
44:21
So I think in my situation was very different.
44:25
You know, I made too many mistakes.
44:29
You know, I got a lot of things wrong
44:31
and didn't make the playoffs to give me the grace to learn.
44:35
So losing and not making the playoffs for three years in a row,
44:40
then the players have every right to say, you know,
44:43
Jake, hey, you're not good enough.
44:45
And you've got to cop that and move on
44:47
and you either grow or get out of the game.
44:49
So I think the interesting thing for me is,
44:51
if the players have gone to Jake mid season
44:53
and said whatever that may be, Victor, we're not happy
44:56
and his assistants have, then if Jake believes
44:59
that it's his way or the highway,
45:01
then you'll live and die by the sword.
45:03
If you've gone to him, that's a different issue, right?
45:06
What normally happens Ricardo is a decent board
45:09
will do a 360 on you.
45:12
They'll talk to all the players and they'll come back
45:14
and they'll make a decision.
45:15
What happened with me is they spoke to the players.
45:17
Some players wanted me to stay.
45:19
The majority said, you know, these things aren't good enough.
45:23
And so I retired an hour before they sat me,
45:26
which is good to see me.
45:28
So that would be my answer.
45:30
You know, Jake, I know Jake really well.
45:33
But any coach, why do we talk about Rusty?
45:36
Why do we talk about Razer?
45:38
You know, why do things happen?
45:40
Because the game's fast moving
45:42
and technically, technically, you've got to move fast.
45:44
But also emotionally, you know, I firmly believe
45:47
there's a person that an empathy lead coach
45:51
is going to be the coach of the future
45:53
because like Victor said, you know, families matter.
45:56
Your friends matter.
45:57
Your child being unwell matters.
45:59
You know, if you're too scared to ring the coach
46:01
because you actually want to take your son to the doctor
46:04
because he's got the flu, you know,
46:06
rugby is a profession.
46:08
It's normal life.
46:09
And so if you don't change,
46:11
then you suffer the consequences.
46:13
Yeah, the one, and listen, this is just rumours.
46:16
And I mean, what I've heard is that
46:19
he was not that much involved on the field anymore
46:23
and more of a manager.
46:25
And I think sometimes when you're becoming a manager
46:28
and almost allowing the assistant coaches
46:31
to do the work on the field by themselves,
46:34
sometimes they, these connections
46:37
that built between the assistant coaches
46:39
and the players that I always think is very dangerous.
46:43
U.S. hate coach wants to be on the field.
46:46
You want that relationship
46:49
with the leadership group as well
46:51
and you don't want to give that over to the assistant coaches.
46:54
So that's just what I heard.
46:57
I don't know if I agree.
46:59
And I've thought about this often, right?
47:02
So I think there's two systems now.
47:04
I mean, the English system was the director of rugby
47:07
has full control.
47:08
And I don't know if you've ever played overseas
47:10
where that happened.
47:11
So I think there are two different roles.
47:13
I think when you think about Razer,
47:16
you know, Razer for me is the modern type coach
47:19
where he's manager.
47:20
He might have one part of the game technically.
47:23
And then there's the old style coach,
47:25
which is on the field.
47:26
I do agree with you though
47:27
that it's a different type of management, right?
47:30
So how do you be director of rugby?
47:33
And I know Jake spent a lot of time overseas
47:36
and still keep that boss-like situation, right?
47:40
Because they are two different roles.
47:43
You work with Eddie, right?
47:45
So Eddie is a complete control,
47:48
complete coach on the field doing everything.
47:51
But there are now coaches that are more that English style,
47:54
which I sort of call the director of rugby.
47:56
They're still called a head coach.
47:57
And when I think about my career as a coach,
48:01
which obviously didn't end as I wanted it to,
48:04
I got that confused because I wasn't technically good enough
48:08
to be on the field and being a head coach.
48:10
And I sort of had a mix of, you know,
48:14
being that director of rugby.
48:16
But then your choice of assistance
48:19
and the choice of people who you have around you
48:22
and what their roles are is completely different, you know?
48:25
But I think that's where the trouble comes in
48:28
is when you allow the system to run the rugby on the field,
48:33
then when it comes to a Saturday,
48:35
you need to allow them as well.
48:37
Then you need to stay in your role.
48:39
And you can't jump from being almost a director of rugby
48:43
like Alex Ferguson.
48:44
I mean, he never, he just managed the whole system.
48:48
He knew that was his role.
48:51
When you manage it, and especially when things go bad,
48:56
then you want to get in and you want to become a coach again.
48:59
I think sometimes there can be a little bit of problems
49:03
between the coaches and the assistants.
49:05
Just a light on that before we finish.
49:07
I thought, Victor, you played obviously a lot for the Barberians.
49:10
It's a big Barberians game up on the weekend.
49:13
Give us a story from your time at the Barberians.
49:17
Then we can publish.
49:19
I'm not sure if you can tell all those stories.
49:25
Probably the funniest one was the year when Nick Mallett was the coach
49:32
and then in the pre-match, so it was really a casual week.
49:37
A lot of socializing and getting to know each other.
49:41
And then on the Friday, I think it was Drew Mitchell playing on the wing.
49:46
And so he gave all the jerseys out.
49:48
He was pretty positive about everyone.
49:50
And he came to Drew Mitchell playing on the wing.
49:53
And he said to him, listen, Drew, really, you're a great player.
49:57
The first thing is just catch the ball.
50:00
If you catch the ball, you can be magic.
50:03
What happened first game, first minute of the game,
50:08
eyeball on Drew Mitchell.
50:11
Drew Mitchell got up to catch it.
50:13
He doesn't touch the ball.
50:15
And we can just get on the side Nick going crazy.
50:19
But I mean, Drew came back, played a fantastic game, beat the all blacks.
50:25
So yeah, Nick didn't make it very easy for him.
50:31
I think Ricardo, so I've coached the Barberians a couple of times
50:35
I've coached it before.
50:38
And you really reassess our game.
50:41
Because honestly, the boys go out every night.
50:44
You know, they're professional.
50:46
Some probably drink a little bit too much.
50:48
But most of them, but they have a few beers.
50:50
They have dinner.
50:51
They have a great time together.
50:53
You know, they walk around the Hyde Park and do a few line outs.
50:57
And then they play some of the best coordinated rugby you've ever seen.
51:02
But at the time, I was coaching, you know, I was coaching Japan or something.
51:07
And I had all these amazing players.
51:09
And at the end of the weekend, I thought, have we got the week wrong?
51:13
You know, have we actually, have we put in too much pressure on our players?
51:17
Because some of the football you see and some of the stuff, you know,
51:21
are South African playing next to a Kiwi and they're doing off loads
51:25
and the guys reading like it's you go, how did that happen?
51:29
We did nothing all week.
51:31
You know, when normally you spend an hour and a half doing line outs.
51:34
They've picked up three times a week and you're just like, how does that happen?
51:39
You know, the game's actually so easy.
51:41
And I mean, we all play at the same way.
51:43
And the principles stay the same.
51:45
But the one thing I can say that I've seen with the barbarians is
51:50
how important a 9 and 10 is.
51:53
If you're in the barbarian's team and you've got a good 9 and 10,
51:57
life's easy because they can just control.
52:00
They've got time.
52:02
They just play the right option.
52:04
All the other guys just run hard.
52:06
They run for caps and, yeah, they just hit the right option.
52:09
So, yeah, we were very fortunate to have a 3-3 and a Matt Kito
52:14
at 9 and 10.
52:16
Mournay Stainwell on the bench.
52:18
I mean, if you've got those guys controlling the game, you know, good position.
52:23
Obviously, a good winger and a fast winger.
52:26
I think it's a good time to end the show when Victor is praising the backs.
52:32
So, that's the end of the rivals this week.
52:34
We'll catch you again next week.