Latest / The Game Business Show / What does the Minecraft movie and Last of Us TV show do to game sales?

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What does the Minecraft movie and Last of Us TV show do to game sales? · The Game Business Show

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  So we've got to move away from the old way of making games
• 0:03
  where you had that fully
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: staffed team no matter what the game required,
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  SPEAKER_00: no matter what players required,
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  SPEAKER_00: and move to something that's more flexible,
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  SPEAKER_00: more agile,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: and certainly more sustainable.
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  Minecraft cleaning up in the way it's done is definitely a
• 0:18
  really big win for the
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  SPEAKER_02: pictures division.
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  SPEAKER_02: The big question is if it,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: is going to be on track to,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: hit a billion or get close to it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome back to the Game Business Show.
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  SPEAKER_01: This week on the hit Minecraft movie,
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  SPEAKER_01: we delve into the world of video game IPs going into film and TV.
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  We also hear about a new game studio trying to both win over
• 0:42
  Gen Alpha players.
• 0:43
  We're also becoming a case study on how to be a modern,
• 0:46
  agile game developer.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we also find out more about a new game event taking place
• 0:50
  in india designed to help india's growing in vc and joining me
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  on this week's show
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  is cory erickson media analyst for a variety intelligent
• 0:58
  platform and luminate have
• 1:00
  i got that right cory variety intelligence platform home not
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  just an intelligent
• 1:03
  platform yes um how are you doing doing all right doing all
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  right i was at the
• 1:08
  video game baftas last night and i'm uh i'm starting to feel
• 1:12
  quite tired so i
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  SPEAKER_01: apologize if i start to ramble
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: That was a repeat of the Game Awards.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Astro Bot did really well, right?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Astro Bot cleaned up.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy the BAFTAs.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's always a really great event.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I have to say,
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: so they have these in memoriam sections,
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  SPEAKER_01: which have really cropped up in video games the last few years.
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  SPEAKER_01: And somebody I met a couple of years ago,
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  SPEAKER_01: a chap called Brett Jones,
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  SPEAKER_01: who was one of the lead artists on GoldenEye and Perfect Dark,
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  SPEAKER_01: which are two of my favorite games.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're panelled together on the 25th anniversary of GoldenEye.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful, wonderful guy.
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  SPEAKER_01: He got ill and he sadly died last year,
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  SPEAKER_01: but he was missing from the in memoriam section,
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  SPEAKER_01: and he's actually won two BAFTAs.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I was quite...
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  SPEAKER_01: A wonderful event,
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  SPEAKER_01: lovely put together,
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  SPEAKER_01: and these things get missed,
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  SPEAKER_01: these things happen,
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  and there's probably a process that needs to be gone through to
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  get him included.
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  But I have to say it was the one thing about what was a really
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  good event that sort
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  SPEAKER_01: of soured it a little bit for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully they'll...
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  SPEAKER_01: They'll fix that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're here to talk about,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  the big topic for today's episode is the Minecraft movie has
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  just broken box office records.
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  It continues to do exceptionally well despite relatively
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  lukewarm reviews.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's even being generous.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's obviously having a huge impact on the video game as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen the film?
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  SPEAKER_01: Have you been to the cinema, rushed out to watch it?
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  SPEAKER_02: I have not seen the film.
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  I have seen,
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  you know,
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  the various hubbub around the film and how well it's done.
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  I'm very impressed that it beat Barbie from a couple of years
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  ago by a little less
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  SPEAKER_02: than one million in its domestic opening.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think the global opening altogether is around 300 million.
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  SPEAKER_02: So,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's the best opening of the year so far,
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  SPEAKER_02: the best since Deadpool and Wolverine last year.
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  which is really fantastic for both gaming adaptations on the
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  film side as well as
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  SPEAKER_02: Warner Brothers.
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  What's so interesting about how well this film did is how much
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  of a win that's
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  SPEAKER_02: needed for both the film and gaming sides of Warner Brothers.
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  Obviously,
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  Warner Brothers Games is not involved with Minecraft to any degree.
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  SPEAKER_02: This is a Warner Brothers Pictures project altogether, but as we know,
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  SPEAKER_02: Warner Brothers Games hasn't been in a great position this year.
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  SPEAKER_02: They closed three studios, including Monolith, earlier this year.
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  SPEAKER_02: So for a gaming adaptation to do this well in that ecosystem,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think,
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  SPEAKER_02: is certainly important for that division.
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  It's also just as important for the two people running Warner
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  Brothers Pictures,
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  SPEAKER_02: Michael DeLuca and Pam Abdi,
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  SPEAKER_02: because,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: there are a lot of
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  high-risk films coming out this year that so far weren't off to
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  a great start after
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  SPEAKER_02: the Mickey 17 opening.
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  So Minecraft cleaning up in the way it's done is definitely a
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  really big win for
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  SPEAKER_02: the pictures division.
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  The big question is if it is going to be on track to hit a
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  billion or get close to it.
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  SPEAKER_02: I have a feeling for as good as the opening is,
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  the sort of enthusiasm around it and the attendance is probably
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  going to prove to
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  have been concentrated towards the opening and not so much
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  towards subsequent weekends.
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  Just based on all the viral videos I saw of people losing their
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  minds in the theater,
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  SPEAKER_02: it seems like
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, this was sort of the opening was sort of the main event here.
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  SPEAKER_02: And everyone with,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: any kind of emotional stake in Minecraft,
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  SPEAKER_02: anyone who needed to take their kids to see something,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: they all showed up for this main weekend.
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  SPEAKER_02: How it does after is going to definitely be the real test to see,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: if it's another Mario.
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  Yeah,
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  I was going to ask because it's the same window,
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  isn't it,
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  of the Mario movie,
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  which did.
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  SPEAKER_01: Also similar, it did over a billion, 1.3 billion in the box office.
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  SPEAKER_01: It does seem to be, billions seems to be almost the norm.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know Sonic,
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  SPEAKER_01: it was across three films,
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  SPEAKER_01: they've now done a billion dollars,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it is certainly accelerating.
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  And every event I go to now has an entire series of panels now
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  about Hollywood and
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  SPEAKER_01: games and the crossover opportunity.
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  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's not new,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it seems,
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  SPEAKER_01: it feels like from my point of view,
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  SPEAKER_01: that games has become almost a new comic books.
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  SPEAKER_02: Somewhat.
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  I think the audience is certainly there for a lot of different
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  gaming IP being
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  SPEAKER_02: brought into the Hollywood space.
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  SPEAKER_02: The trick is just how well the project,
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  SPEAKER_02: whether it's film or whether it's TV,
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  SPEAKER_02: can really match sort of the culture surrounding,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: the core gaming experience.
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  In this case,
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  I think clearly the Minecraft film succeeded in that regard.
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  SPEAKER_02: And keep in mind, you know, it didn't review very well.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was not a smash by critical standards by any means.
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  I think this is just a film where they were able to really
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  match the culture behind
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  Minecraft and really map a lot of what people like about
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  Minecraft as an experience onto...
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  SPEAKER_02: a certainly loose but good enough narrative experience for,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: the film to prove to be,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: as valuable as it was to the theatrical experience.
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  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously, it's never quite that simple.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know,
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  SPEAKER_02: last year we saw Borderlands not do very well in theaters,
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  SPEAKER_02: despite having a lot of stars attached.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's just...
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  You know,
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  how well one of these projects does,
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  you know,
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  it could depend on various factors.
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  It could depend on,
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  you know,
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  do you have a core character that's going to bring people out?
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  You know,
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  obviously that was the case with the Super Mario Brothers movie.
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  And we'll see if,
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  you know,
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  that kind of enthusiasm extends to The Legend of Zelda next year.
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  SPEAKER_02: Or is that 2027?
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  SPEAKER_01: There's another Mario one next year.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  And then it seems to be Nintendo's moving to an annual schedule
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  with their films.
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  And The Legend of Zelda is going to come through Sony Pictures
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  and not Universal,
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  SPEAKER_02: because Universal does the Super Mario Bros.
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  SPEAKER_02: movies through Illumination, but Zelda is a Sony project.
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  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned about that culture element,
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  because I think Minecraft is an example of those games that
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  just taps into what
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  SPEAKER_01: Minecraft fans like.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same with,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: Five Nights at Freddy's as another film that didn't review greatly,
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  SPEAKER_01: but seemed to really capture that aspect.
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  audience in that franchise quite well to the point where
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  there's a second film this
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  year and it certainly I think that's the thing with video game
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  films sometimes it's
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  they don't always lend themselves to sort of high quality
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  stories necessarily but
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  if they're hero but if they can tap into that cultural
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  affiliation fans have for
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  these things and they and then they can do extremely well and
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  they can be well
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  SPEAKER_01: loved
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  SPEAKER_02: Well, what do you think of this?
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  SPEAKER_02: There was another recent bit of news on,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  the gaming adaptation film front where Death Stranding at A24
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  now has a director in
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  SPEAKER_02: Michael Cernoski.
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  SPEAKER_02: He last did A Quiet Place day one for Paramount.
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  SPEAKER_02: Before that,
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  SPEAKER_02: he did a much smaller film called Pig for Neon,
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  SPEAKER_02: which was sort of,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: more of an artsy Nicolas Cage movie.
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  SPEAKER_02: That to me...
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  SPEAKER_02: is one I've been a little bit skeptical of just because,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: for as critically acclaimed as Death Stranding is and,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: its status as,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: newer IP within the PlayStation ecosystem,
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  SPEAKER_02: a live action adaptation of that to me means a pretty big budget.
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  So for it to be made through A24 instead of Sony was something
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  I found particularly fascinating.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
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  SPEAKER_02: if they've got a director attached now,
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  SPEAKER_02: they're,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: they're a step closer to getting this off the ground.
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  SPEAKER_02: I just,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think that is,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  about as ambitious as one of these projects can get just
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  because Death Stranding as
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  SPEAKER_02: a game,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: that's a much more hi-fi,
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  SPEAKER_02: graphically intense,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: AAA gaming experience,
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  which to translate that correctly over to film and have a look
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  consistently good,
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  SPEAKER_02: that's going to require a pretty substantial budget.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  I don't think Death Stranding is a particularly big game in
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  terms of commercial
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  SPEAKER_01: performance and success.
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  Kojima,
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  of course,
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  was tied with Metal Gear Solid and was largely seen as AAA.
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  SPEAKER_01: His games still look AAA,
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  SPEAKER_01: they still punch above their weights,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I think they're more of an indie team now,
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  SPEAKER_01: effectively.
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  So I'll be interested to see if that actually translates quite
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  nicely to that sort
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  SPEAKER_01: of smaller budget game.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: project.
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  SPEAKER_01: The other thing actually tied to this is I was I interviewed Sam Lake,
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  SPEAKER_01: Remedy's creative director yesterday.
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  And he's obviously one of the I talked about the projects he's
• 9:02
  got coming up.
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  And one of the things he's most excited about is this deal of
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  Annapurna and Remedy
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  SPEAKER_01: in terms of,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  I think of Sam Lake and Video Kojima as being quite similar
• 9:11
  game creators,
• 9:11
  and they're almost they're all involved in all elements of the
• 9:14
  creation of these
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  SPEAKER_01: things that they're writers as well as,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: game directors and
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  He was talking about,
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  you know,
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  the ability to get involved in these things.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the other element of this, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: It's that particularly in recent years,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether it was Ubisoft as well,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then Nintendo now,
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  there is more active involvement from the video game side in
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  getting involved in
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  SPEAKER_01: these projects,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I know is not,
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  SPEAKER_01: they don't know how to make movies.
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  It's not what they do,
• 9:33
  but there is an element of that authenticity and that...
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  making sure you capture the essence of the thing that you're
• 9:41
  trying to make which
• 9:41
  that can theoretically help which I think is what helped comic
• 9:45
  book movies sort of
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: find their feet was when Marvel itself got involved in making them yeah
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure there was much of a point there.
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  SPEAKER_02: No, no.
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  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: so far,
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  SPEAKER_02: when people think of successful gaming adaptations,
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  SPEAKER_02: obviously,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: there's the Mario movie.
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  SPEAKER_02: Anything with a monetary value attached.
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  Mario is so far at the top of how well gaming IP has translated
• 10:06
  over to the Hollywood space.
• 10:07
  But the other two people are very obsessed with and talk about
• 10:10
  all the time would
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: be The Last of Us and Fallout.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: And, of course, The Last of Us is...
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: this upcoming Sunday on HBO.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: So that's going to be very much in the conversation again.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: But those were two projects where,
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:23
  sort of the core people involved with them were closely
• 10:26
  involved with the adaptations.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, with The Last of Us, you have Neil Druckmann.
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  SPEAKER_02: He's co-creator,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: co-showrunner,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: co-writer,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: directs one or two episodes each of these seasons.
• 10:36
  So he is about as involved as,
• 10:38
  you know,
• 10:38
  a creator can possibly be with that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then with Fallout, you have, you know, Todd Howard,
• 10:43
  very you know heavy on the show as a producer and and again you
• 10:47
  know that's for for
• 10:49
  people who want more fallout yeah sure you have you know
• 10:51
  fallout 76 as a live
• 10:53
  service but as far as you know new fallout games fallout 5 is
• 10:57
  still just like a
• 10:58
  ways and a ways away on the horizon bethesda has to do um the
• 11:02
  elder scrolls 6 first
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: before they can get to that so you know
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Fallout the series on Amazon,
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: for people who want more Fallout,
• 11:10
  that's pretty much their only option for very likely the rest
• 11:14
  of the decade.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: For that show to work,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Todd Howard does have to be very,
• 11:18
  very closely involved to keep it as Fallout of an experience as
• 11:22
  it possibly can be,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: despite being a TV series instead of a video game.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I do want to mention, since you brought it up, that
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Remedy Entertainment,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Annapurna Pictures deal,
• 11:32
  what's so interesting about that is it's not simply them
• 11:35
  licensing Control and Alan
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Wake as IP to Annapurna to make potential film and TV projects out of.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: The deal has Annapurna contributing to the actual funding of Control 2.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think as much as half of the game's budget,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: which is a particularly unique deal,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: because typically...
• 11:55
  the way these deals go is,
• 11:56
  you know,
• 11:57
  it's just licensing one way or the other.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: this is Remedy saying,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: to Annapurna,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: if you want RIP for your own purposes,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: you have to actually invest in the core IP and,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: keep it alive because what we do is very high quality,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: which means it's also very expensive.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And for as good of a deal as that was for Remedy,
• 12:17
  It was a little bit messy on the Annapurna Pictures side
• 12:20
  because Annapurna
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Interactive had absolutely nothing to do with that deal.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: That deal sort of came together outside of,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: their own effort to try to be spun off into their own separate company.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, as was reported in the news.
• 12:33
  The talks there kind of stall to the point where most of the
• 12:36
  Annapurna Interactive
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: staff ended up leaving the company altogether.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And now a bunch of them are forming,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: a new company with some of the folks carrying over from private division.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've got some stats.
• 12:48
  I hope you won't hate it,
• 12:49
  but any regular listeners know I'm a bit of a stat person.
• 12:52
  So I was interested to see what is the impact of these time
• 12:55
  moves on video games in particular.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the Minecraft movie obviously doing extremely well.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit early for sales data.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: We do have daily active players.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: So on the Saturday after the movie came out,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: or so the fifth,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: daily active players in Minecraft grew 9% week on week.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And on Sunday, players were up 17% week on week.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's according to Ampere analysis.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't sound like a lot,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: But that's because Mojang ran a bunch of activity,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: including releasing some Minecraft movie DLC for free the week before.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: If they go to the week before,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: the Saturday before the movie came out,
• 13:27
  daily active players were up 25% week on week and Sunday
• 13:30
  numbers were up 14% week
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: on week.
• 13:32
  So that's two consecutive weeks of mostly double digit growth
• 13:35
  for a game that
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: already boasts nearly $170 million.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: monthly active users.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: We do actually have some data in GFKs in the UK.
• 13:44
  GFK Nielsen does the physical game sales and they've revealed
• 13:47
  that the Nintendo
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Switch copy of Minecraft rose 25% in sales week on week.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it rose 8% on sales week before as well.
• 13:54
  So you've got evidence here of some growth on the game side
• 13:57
  from the film.
• 13:59
  What this sends me down a rabbit hole was how does this compare
• 14:03
  what normally happens?
• 14:04
  And the truth is it varies so much depending on the game and
• 14:08
  what the strategy is
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: and all sorts of things.
• 14:10
  If I go back to the last major video game movie,
• 14:12
  which was Sonic the Hedgehog 3,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: For this film,
• 14:15
  Sega actually released a Sonic game designed partially to tap
• 14:18
  into the movie,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sonic Shadow Generations.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know that was technically a sort of remake,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: remaster,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: but Shadow features in the film and the game,
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: and that's why they did it.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: The game launched in October,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: a film released in December,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: and during December,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sonic X Shadow Generations' monthly active players increased 46%.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: What might have actually had a negative impact on that,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: however,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: is the game where Sega placed Sonic Frontiers,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: which is another 3D Sonic game released a few years ago,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: into the PlayStation Plus subscription service.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as a result,
• 14:47
  Sonic Frontiers is actually the most popular Sonic game in
• 14:49
  terms of players during December,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: not the game designed to tie in with the movie.
• 14:55
  But overall,
• 14:56
  I think from Sega's point of view,
• 14:57
  that's a really strong month for Sonic.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to stick with movies for a bit.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Gran Turismo.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Remember that one?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: That one wasn't like a Borderlands-style disaster.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think it did okay in the box office.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It critically a little bit more mixed, but not too negative.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: According to Ampere, players in that game did rise 20% month for month.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And across Europe,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: this is GSD data,
• 15:21
  video game sales actually grew 78% month for month for the game
• 15:24
  Gran Turismo 7.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: But we're not talking huge numbers here, to be clear.
• 15:28
  Gran Turismo 7 was number 33 in August when the movie came out
• 15:33
  and the previous
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: month was number 82.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a big jump, but it's still number 33.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a huge driver of sales.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: It helped a little bit.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, that month's big disaster was the Borderlands movie.
• 15:44
  Now,
• 15:44
  the previous Borderlands game,
• 15:45
  the main Borderlands game,
• 15:46
  was Borderlands 3.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually had a big summer anyway because it was also included in
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: PlayStation Plus,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: a bit like Sonic Frontiers.
• 15:55
  It entered PlayStation Plus in July and reached 2.15 million
• 15:58
  players that month.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: When the movie came out, it rose to 2.16 million, so a tiny 3% increase.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sales-wise, however, August was huge for Borderlands 3.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: According to GSD data for Europe,
• 16:12
  Borderlands 3 sales jumped 418% and went from number 99 in the
• 16:14
  charts to number 6.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: But this was mostly due...
• 16:19
  A lot of headlines were running around at the time saying
• 16:22
  Borderlands movie boosts
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: game sales.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure it helped a little bit, maybe.
• 16:26
  But actually,
• 16:27
  there was a 90% discount being made on Borderlands games,
• 16:31
  particularly on Steam.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that probably had a bigger impact...
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: on the performance of that game over the film.
• 16:39
  And the other one I mentioned,
• 16:40
  I mentioned it earlier,
• 16:41
  was Five Nights at Freddy's.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't that critical, darling, but fans enjoyed it.
• 16:46
  And the monthly active user count for the first game in the
• 16:48
  series on the month
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: that Five Nights at Freddy's came out was 100% up month for month.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: To put that into actual numbers,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: at the start of October,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: the game had around,
• 16:56
  the first game in the Five Nights at Freddy's franchise had
• 16:59
  around 10,000 active
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: daily users.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that rose to 50,000 daily active users during the first week of
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there's lots of evidence here of success,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: but it kind of depends on the approach to it,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: the Mario movie.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: which happened, you know, all the games shot up in the charts.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that was partly because Nintendo did a big bundle around the film,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: remote Mario Kart and the Mario games.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't a lot of discounting going on by Nintendo.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it did cause a boost in Switch sales.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: things like The Last of Us,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: The First Last of Us,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sony did very little in terms of promoting it.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: But we can talk about TV shows.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it varies.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it seems to me you need to...
• 17:37
  How well it does largely depends on how good the product is and
• 17:39
  how much the
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: publisher leans into that opportunity.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: in the past,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: you did mention this in terms of the Sonic movie,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: but the norm used to be tie in games alongside any kind of movie release.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's largely gone out of the way with,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:59
  the embrace of live services like Fortnite and Roblox as
• 18:02
  promotional platforms,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: but also to for IP that is gaming based.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: and you just covered this,
• 18:08
  but I think the new trend going forward is obviously it's too
• 18:12
  hefty to try to make
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: a new gaming experience tied to the movie.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: What we can do is take the existing ones and discount them,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: put them on a subscription service,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: make them easily accessible.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you did mention how you felt
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't see Sony do too much of this with The Last of Us,
• 18:31
  but that's not actually true because when The Last of Us was up
• 18:36
  for Emmys at the
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: beginning of 2024,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:39
  the Emmy ceremonies were delayed because of the writer's strike
• 18:43
  and actor's strike
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: in Hollywood.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: So they happened in January 2024, if I remember correctly.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: That is the same month they,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: basically updated The Last of Us Part II to a PS5 version.
• 18:55
  They kind of timed those two together just because since it was
• 18:59
  up for so many Emmys,
• 19:00
  they knew they were going to be promoting The Last of Us show
• 19:02
  at the same time.
• 19:04
  Yeah,
• 19:04
  well,
• 19:04
  let's talk about The Last of Us because actually I say it
• 19:06
  didn't do very much.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: It did do very well.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: It aired in January 2023, the show.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And like,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'll talk about Fallout in a minute as well because the Fallout TV show,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: everything went up at the same time.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, The Last of Us was released weekly.
• 19:20
  There was an oddly,
• 19:21
  what I find really fascinating is there was initially a spike
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: in game sales at the start, as you'd expect.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So IDG reported a 38% jump in sales of the game.
• 19:31
  It's not a huge jump,
• 19:32
  but it's a decent jump compared with pre-show sales.
• 19:35
  But then when the show finished,
• 19:37
  it jumped again,
• 19:38
  this time by 75% compared with pre-show sales.
• 19:41
  So actually this is a phenomenon here with The Last of Us
• 19:43
  actually caused a spike
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: in sales after the game,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: after the series is finished.
• 19:48
  I don't know if that's because people tend to binge watch these
• 19:50
  things and that's
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: when actually there was a huge spike in
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: in viewers at that point,
• 19:53
  or if it was linked to people wanting to go back and experience
• 19:57
  the story after
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: enjoying the TV show.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the phenomena is there.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can speculate.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it had two spikes, Last of Us game sales.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of engagement, though, it's actually just huge.
• 20:11
  The Last of Us Remastered,
• 20:13
  which I think was the PS4 remake of The Last of Us,
• 20:16
  hit 1.8 million monthly active users during January when the
• 20:20
  show launched,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: which is a rise of 1,000% month on month.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Last of Us Part 2,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: which was the sequel,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: rose 440% in monthly active users with 1.4 million people.
• 20:30
  And The Last of Us Part 1,
• 20:31
  which is the PS5 version of the first Last of Us,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: The remake, yeah.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Rose 347% in players, then a 600,000.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it was released the, I think, I believe September 2022.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: So a few months before the show premiered on HBO.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, indeed.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that success continued into February,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 20:52
  because the last first remastered jumped again by 417% as the
• 20:55
  show continued.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: 2.2 million monthly players.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Part two jumped to just shy of 1.6 million players.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's up 178%.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then part one dropped 62%.
• 21:05
  And then the show finished in March and things were still
• 21:07
  pretty strong in March.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it's actually his monthly user count,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: didn't go back down to pre-show numbers until the summer.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a similar phenomenon that happened with Fallout.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously Fallout was a massive hit because it was,
• 21:20
  I think it's Amazon's Prime's second biggest TV show after
• 21:23
  Rings of Power,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Lord of the Rings show.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the last Fallout game,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Fallout 4,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: that I reported on this at the time on GamesIndustry.biz,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: it shot to the top of the charts.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: It came out nine years before the TV show.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: It sold over half a million units across Europe during that month.
• 21:39
  And according to IG,
• 21:40
  again,
• 21:41
  the sales were up 345% at its peak versus pre-show sales.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's worth noting it was severely discounted.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So they followed the sort of Borderlands thing.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't just the fact there was a hit TV show.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: The game was really, really cheap.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was also in subscription services.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: And they had updated it to PS5 as well in tandem with the show.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: They really lent in.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: What I think was most interesting, though, is the player numbers.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: So according to Ampere,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Fallout 4 had 10 and a half million monthly active users during April,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: which is when Fallout came out.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: That was more than nine million users up over March.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: But come May, things dropped, but only to nine and a half million.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: So of course, the show aired at the same time.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: it dropped again to around 4 million come June,
• 22:30
  but actually it wasn't until September that the user numbers on
• 22:33
  Fallout went back
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: to March levels.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So although the big spike was at the beginning,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: it's the same with The Last of Us,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: or actually the spike at the end of The Last of Us,
• 22:44
  there was enough impact on this in terms of players playing
• 22:47
  that game for long
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: after the show had finished.
• 22:49
  It wasn't just a quick enjoy a player game to tie in with the
• 22:53
  thing that I'm playing.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of stretched out across...
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: across the months and months and months, which is very good.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: to see how The Last of Us Part II will do because there's in the TV show.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: The TV show,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: we do very well,
• 23:09
  but the impact upon the games and the only thing I really got
• 23:12
  to base this on is
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: the Halo TV show.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: There were two series of Halo, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's the reason why I find this interesting.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And according to IDG,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: when the first show launched in 2022,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: sales of the game rose over 1,000%,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: 1,090%.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's from a very low base.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's why that number's so high.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: However,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: the second series,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: which I had last year,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: barely had any impact on the game sales at all.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Which,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 23:36
  it's not unsurprising to suggest that the first series is the
• 23:39
  one likely to have
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: the biggest sales impact.
• 23:41
  And I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that will be the
• 23:43
  case for Last of Us as well.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: new PC version of part two.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there is something there that might boost it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: But actually in engagement terms,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: the TV show did help,
• 23:57
  the second series of the TV show did help encourage players
• 24:00
  back to the game.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: According to Ampere,
• 24:02
  Halo Infinite and Halo the Master Chief Collection saw monthly
• 24:04
  active users rise
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: around 300% each during February 2024,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: which is when series two debuted.
• 24:11
  And the Master Chief Collection then rose again by 100% in
• 24:13
  March as the series continued,
• 24:15
  making it the biggest month of the Master Chief Collection
• 24:17
  since November 2022.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then the series was cancelled.
• 24:20
  So I'll be interested to see the second series of impact upon
• 24:24
  The Last of Us games,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: whether it will have that same influence or not.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think...
• 24:29
  The prospects for that are pretty good on account of the fact
• 24:32
  that this upcoming
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: season of The Last of Us,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: season two,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: it's not covering the full part two of the video game.
• 24:38
  And I'm glad it's not doing that because this is only a seven
• 24:41
  episode season versus
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: the nine episode first season.
• 24:43
  And,
• 24:44
  you know,
• 24:44
  part two is double the length of part one of the game,
• 24:47
  essentially.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that it's only going to cover a partial amount of the story,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 24:55
  is going to very likely drive viewers who haven't played Part 2
• 24:59
  yet back to Part 2 to,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: see the rest of the story because,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: we're in the age of...
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes as much as two years passing between new seasons of TV.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no guarantee,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:11
  a season three of The Last of Us comes out in quick enough
• 25:14
  succession for people
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: who are dying to see the rest of the story.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Instead, they have part two, the game that they can go to.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that's going to work out very well for them.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: What I'm particularly interested to see is,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:30
  it does seem like they're starting to kind of mentally prepare
• 25:34
  people for,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: the realistic amount of The Last of Us seasons,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: given that,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: after part two,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: there's not much more of The Last of Us.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: They have yet to really...
• 25:45
  make any kind of commitment to a part three over at Naughty Dog
• 25:49
  and PlayStation.
• 25:50
  Obviously,
• 25:51
  Naughty Dog is doing a pretty high-profile space game as their
• 25:55
  next project.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: They announced that at the last Game Awards.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that is going to be a pretty hefty endeavor before they can really...
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: see if they have enough resources to,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: work on The Last of Us Part III concurrently with that.
• 26:09
  Neil Druckmann has sort of kind of said some wishy-washy things
• 26:12
  about how realistic
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: a Part III is.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know that when The Last of Us first became a huge hit,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: as glad as I was to see that,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: as much as I like the show,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: what I was nervous of is like,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: is this going to be the next,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Game of Thrones?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: George R.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: R.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Martin situation over at HBO where the show's so big,
• 26:34
  it just kind of continues on its own past the material from the
• 26:38
  actual creator.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously the thing with Game of Thrones was,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Winds of Winter,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: the novel,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: had not come out.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the show just kind of went forward with,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: the established plot line anyway,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: instead of that book coming out.
• 26:51
  So right now it doesn't seem like that's likely to happen with
• 26:54
  The Last of Us,
• 26:55
  but...
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: I guess depending on how well season two does compared to season one,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: we don't know that for sure.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you know, this is not Warner Brothers IP by any means, so...
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Realistically,
• 27:07
  I don't think they would be in a situation where they could
• 27:10
  easily just continue
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: the show into material past part two.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: But right now,
• 27:16
  the future of the show is a little bit uncertain in terms of
• 27:20
  how much more they can
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: get out of it seasonally,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: especially if there are no current reported plans for a part three.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: I do wonder why Neil said that,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: or the other showrunner said they wouldn't go past the games,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't know why when you've got the person that can write,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: that wrote the games,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: he could possibly write you the next series.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just, or at least plot it out.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why that's not a possibility, a way of continuing the story.
• 27:48
  If the game developers want to try and do something else,
• 27:50
  do something new.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I personally think it's fine,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: but well,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I understand the concern of sort of getting that wrong,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: but
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: do you think Amazon,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: especially as a company that does have its own gaming division,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: even if they're not a high output gaming division over at Amazon,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: do you think...
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: now that they have a hit show in Fallout that,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: there is a desire there for,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: more Fallout on the gaming side to be expedited to,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:18
  better serve interest in the show or because Fallout the show
• 28:21
  is its own story that
• 28:23
  is canonical to the Fallout universe but not adapted from any
• 28:26
  specific Fallout game,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: does it then not matter as much?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Good question.
• 28:32
  Can the TV show be the replacement for the lack of games or is
• 28:40
  it actually the
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: thing that might spark the development of new projects?
• 28:44
  I think Fallout's an interesting one because Fallout's gone to
• 28:46
  other developers before,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: including Microsoft-owned Obsidian.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you think there's a possibility there?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if Naughty Dog would ever...
• 28:56
  And although there's talks of Uncharted being given to another studio,
• 28:59
  see,
• 28:59
  I don't know.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Change topic completely for a second.
• 29:02
  I've got a couple of extra stories that I had a couple of
• 29:04
  interviews this week with
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: game developers and game people.
• 29:06
  And one of them is about a new game studio has been formed by
• 29:09
  video game veterans
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: that want to show the way in how to be a modern game studio.
• 29:13
  Dragon Snacks Games is a new team formed by Amazon and Xbox
• 29:16
  executive Jen McLean,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: scopely veteran Chris Nemkoski,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: and strategy games expert from Oxide and Firaxis,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Michelle Menard.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: They had a chat with them early in the week.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was only planning to run it for this.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was a really good interview, so I might run the full thing.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I will.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: They're targeting Gen Z and Gen Alpha as their audience,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: which involves them speaking directly,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: getting those people in to help them make the game,
• 29:39
  and watching the behaviours of the audience through things like
• 29:42
  TikTok and Discord.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: They talked about creating social spaces,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: spaces with games that can appeal to that generation,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: because it craves that sort of instant,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: fast-paced experiences.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Here's actually a bit from CEO Jen McLean.
• 29:58
  I was really privileged in my role at Xbox to have a team that
• 30:02
  managed the largest
• 30:03
  third-party partnerships and to see the data for games and
• 30:07
  studios like EA and Epic
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: and Roblox and Riot.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I also co-led NextGen Content Strategy.
• 30:13
  And so I got to see a lot of research in addition to being a
• 30:16
  mom of an 8-year-old
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: and a 12-year-old and a 20-year-old.
• 30:19
  And so I would watch my 12-year-old play Roblox with her phone
• 30:23
  propped up next to
• 30:23
  her and she's FaceTiming or Discording or WhatsAppping with her
• 30:26
  friends while she's
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: playing because she's got these social needs that are not being met.
• 30:32
  My eight-year-old spent 45 minutes on his Roblox avatar and was
• 30:36
  crushed when no one
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: noticed because he's not playing with his friends,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: he's playing with strangers.
• 30:41
  And that comes with a lot of disadvantages and problems and a
• 30:43
  lot of scary parts to
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: that as well.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: it was really thinking as the industry evolves,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: as our players evolve,
• 30:52
  what do we need to do differently to meet our players' needs
• 30:57
  and to meet our
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: players where they are?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: From my perspective, I have no interest in building a 200-person team.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're slow, they're expensive, they're big, they're challenging.
• 31:08
  We've been able to do more with a small team of six than teams
• 31:12
  of 60 because we all
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: know the vision that we are building too.
• 31:16
  I want to make sure that we are doing something that the future
• 31:19
  gamers want,
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: that gamers of today and tomorrow want,
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: not gamers of yesterday.
• 31:24
  And I want to make sure that we're doing it in a way that's
• 31:26
  sustainable because we
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: all know or have been impacted by layoffs.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants to do that again.
• 31:32
  And so being really smart and deliberate about using outsourcers,
• 31:37
  using codev,
• 31:38
  The reality of making games is that you are not going to have a
• 31:41
  consistent need for
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: every position at every part of development.
• 31:44
  And so we've got to move away from the old way of making games
• 31:48
  where you had that
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: fully staffed team,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: no matter what the game required,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: no matter what players required,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: and move to something that's more flexible,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: more agile,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: and certainly more sustainable.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: From my perspective,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: and this has been true my entire career,
• 32:04
  the best thing about the game development community is that we
• 32:07
  help each other out.
• 32:09
  And by being able to say,
• 32:11
  look,
• 32:11
  this is where we think the industry is going.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we're doing it.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is how we think about sustainable game development.
• 32:18
  This is how we think about reaching an audience and really
• 32:21
  building for their needs.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: If this inspires one person to do things differently, I think it's a win.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we don't change as an industry, we will continue to decline.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: No one wants to see that happen.
• 32:35
  that's uh jen mclean there from dragon snacks games it's sort
• 32:39
  of talking about the
• 32:39
  sort of movie model there of having a small central team and
• 32:42
  then utilizing
• 32:43
  outsource um uh developers there's a fun thing i i we did a
• 32:47
  piece on on the game
• 32:48
  business a couple of weeks ago about game investment and this
• 32:51
  studio basically
• 32:52
  ticked every box that the investors were saying they want to
• 32:54
  see from games they
• 32:55
  want to see a game studio that doesn't necessarily be making
• 32:57
  games for themselves
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: but actually going to make games for
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: a specific audience.
• 33:01
  They want a game developer that's working with the audience
• 33:03
  from the beginning and
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: getting them involved in making the games.
• 33:05
  They want studios that can be small and lean and make use of
• 33:08
  modern production techniques,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: including AI,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: which they're doing.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, Dragon Snacks Games mentioned all of that in my interview.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is all the things they're doing.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like it was an investor tick box,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: but actually they talked about the fact that it's important.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is how modern games are going to be made.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Smaller teams,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: more outsourcing,
• 33:25
  utilizing latest production methods and sort of being really
• 33:29
  laser focused on
• 33:30
  trying to speak to audiences that perhaps are being distracted
• 33:33
  by other things like
• 33:34
  TikTok or being won over by other things like TikTok might be
• 33:38
  the suggestion.
• 33:38
  But they're an interesting team and they talked about social
• 33:42
  spaces as well.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking to that,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: What's their plan to wrestle,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: younger potential gamers away from Fortnite,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Roblox,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: Minecraft,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: their usual home spaces?
• 33:56
  Well,
• 33:56
  they're almost targeting people,
• 33:58
  not so much Roblox,
• 33:58
  but younger than that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things is to be an addition rather than the replacement.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I think they've got a challenge.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'd ask them this question.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: For them,
• 34:10
  it's about being on the side of those things as opposed to as a
• 34:13
  replacement for it,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: but also doing things that's a little bit,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: that really...
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: looking at how they engage with TikTok,
• 34:19
  looking at how they engage with Roblox and working out how they
• 34:22
  can sort of tap
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: into all of that.
• 34:24
  We'll be seeing lots of companies that would love to succeed in
• 34:27
  this place.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: But hey,
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: these people have,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: they are,
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Jen McLean's been at Xbox,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: been at Amazon,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: been around a while.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they certainly know the theory.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's difficult for the gaming space in that,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: yes,
• 34:37
  if you can have a socially derived gaming experience that
• 34:41
  appeals to younger gamers where,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: your game itself can act as a platform for,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: them and their friend groups to spend a lot of time in,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: that can be very valuable.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: But,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:50
  people age and taste and interests and interactive experiences
• 34:55
  change as people age.
• 34:57
  So I think,
• 34:58
  you know,
• 34:58
  what's tricky and what there are no easy solutions to...
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: for any game studio,
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: especially ones that are launching in the space,
• 35:05
  is how do you really approach a specific demographic or try to
• 35:12
  create a gaming
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: experience that can appeal to as many demographics as possible?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because younger gamers have a lot of time to devote to an experience,
• 35:20
  but you don't know that you're going to actually have them for
• 35:25
  more than a year,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: more than two years.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: And there are still...
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: older gamers who might be more,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:34
  easygoing towards a new experience and not necessarily tied
• 35:37
  down to a Fortnite or a Roblox.
• 35:39
  So,
• 35:39
  you know,
• 35:40
  do you necessarily want to like put them to the side as well?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think the gaming industry is really struggling with,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: trying to strategize around various demographics.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's yes,
• 35:53
  but I think what's interesting is that phenomena of young
• 35:57
  people like quicker experiences,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: faster,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: more instant gratification,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: but also older gamers don't have the time for these big,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: long,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: wieldy,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: generalization,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: experiences.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if there's an actual,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: there's a meeting here of the two sorts of worlds,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: time poor adults,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't use the word impatient,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: it sounds like I'm being mean,
• 36:20
  but sort of impatient young people might actually allow for an
• 36:23
  experience that can
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: cross-wave a world between the two.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're still seeing what they build on it.
• 36:30
  And certainly in terms of creating a studio that's designed to
• 36:34
  be sustainable and
• 36:35
  affordable and they can scale a little bit easier and you're
• 36:37
  not beholden to big teams.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: The last story I've got...
• 36:42
  is actually about a new video game business and consumer event
• 36:46
  that's launching in
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: India this weekend or this week called Indie Game Udsaf,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: designed to help accelerate India's,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I got that right,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: designed to help accelerate India's game dev scene on the global stage.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they described it as a festival for Indian indie games.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: It takes place at Comic-Con India in Mumbai.
• 37:02
  It had been organized by Avicel Singh,
• 37:05
  who is the co-founder and game editor Nodding Head.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's the studio famous for Raji and Ancient Epic,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: which is one of India's most successful PC and console games.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're going to have it certainly is going to be as well as the
• 37:17
  opportunity for consumers to go hands on with these games as
• 37:19
  opportunity for
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: publishers to meet the developers.
• 37:21
  There's also going to be some workshop that they've already
• 37:24
  done some ahead of the
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: event as well.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Here's Singh himself sort of talking about the project.
• 37:30
  Comic-Con India has also been trying to do video games since
• 37:35
  2014 or something,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: if I'm not sure.
• 37:38
  I have seen some very old photos of games being played at
• 37:42
  Comic-Con Bangalore.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where the picture got completed,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: that we would make this a home for Indian gamers,
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: which is the Comic-Con audience,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: very anime-friendly.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: All anime fans, pop culture fans, everyone's there.
• 38:01
  There's even a video game cosplay category,
• 38:03
  so definitely a lot of gamers visited.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: And now it just rolled into a big thing, honestly.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: We had sessions with Raw Fury.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: There's a session with Devolver on the 8th.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: There's a session with Epic for Indies.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: And we got nine publishers on the floor.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: There's a Poland publisher Untold Tales coming in.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: Singapore, there are two publishers coming in.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: And from Japan,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: we have Dungeon Entertainment,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: Xola,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: Xbox,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Intel saw the value and became sponsors.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, that's the aim to make this home for developers.
• 38:40
  So publishers can fly in because a lot of developers here do
• 38:45
  not have the funds or
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: the means to fly to,
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: say,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: GDC.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: While now there are some developers doing that,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: it is still a big risk because they end up spending...
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: roughly $10,000 or slightly less,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: $8,000 to $10,000,
• 39:03
  which is a lot and could be a lot of fun for a studio which is
• 39:09
  just a full of people.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm trying to create those opportunities here.
• 39:14
  So far,
• 39:15
  publishers have been very supportive and developers have seen
• 39:18
  the value.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: So we have, I think, 45, 46 confirmed games as of now.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's saying they're talking about indie game.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Stav,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: alongside the event,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: there's a Steam sale dedicated to indie games that's set to take place.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's 116 games involved.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what he said.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: The last time this happened was in 2021.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: There was only 54 games involved.
• 39:41
  It's an interesting story,
• 39:42
  this,
• 39:43
  because India has been best known as an outsource.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: The game they've seen is best known for outsourcing.
• 39:49
  And its development scene is best,
• 39:51
  its sort of audience is best known for mobile games.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Nikko Partners says that 77.9%,
• 39:55
  so 78% of total revenue spent on games in India was spent on
• 40:00
  mobile games,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: just 14.5% spent on PC and just over 7.5% spent on consoles.
• 40:08
  But it is attracting a lot of international attention and
• 40:11
  platforms looking to
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: discover new titles.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen the Xbox Developer Accelerator program,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: which has been used a lot in India,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: where PlayStation have launched its Hero Project in India,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: trying to incubate games.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: In that territory, Epic Games India has been given grants to studios.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Craston also has an incubator.
• 40:29
  I think there's a recognition here that if you're going to be
• 40:33
  successful in India,
• 40:34
  what might be the way to do that is to have games that are very
• 40:37
  much speak to that audience.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is the country where the biggest movies in India are Indian movies.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the biggest music is Indian music.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's very much a part of...
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: of that culture.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the PUBG game that's very popular in India has an India version.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: I saw a game at DDC called Detective Dotson,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: which I thought was amazing,
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is a wonderful game.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: It obviously very much set in that sort of world and culture.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually found it fascinating,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: somebody who knows very little about that world to discover it.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: But equally,
• 41:09
  I think that's the sort of stuff that's going to probably
• 41:10
  resonate best in that country.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or at least that's the theory,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 41:12
  from some of the bigger international companies that are
• 41:15
  looking to invest in this area.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I mean, India alone is a bit more than 1.4 billion people.
• 41:22
  So I would say that's a pretty appealing factor to looking for
• 41:29
  whatever growth
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: there is still to find in the gaming industry.
• 41:33
  Focusing on the world's biggest population centers is certainly
• 41:36
  one way to go.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:38
  And I do have one more bit from Singh who talks about the fact
• 41:43
  that the market is a
• 41:44
  big opportunity for studios and also talked about the fact that
• 41:47
  some of the things
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: that companies are doing.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Here he is.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: The numbers were always with India.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: If you just look at mobile gaming, the numbers are crazy.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: And especially for free-to-play games, these add a lot of value.
• 42:01
  And I worked at Zynga for two years where I worked on Farmville
• 42:06
  and Empires and Allies.
• 42:07
  So as much as,
• 42:09
  hey,
• 42:09
  India might not be the top-paying nation for some of these games,
• 42:16
  I know...
• 42:17
  whales cannot exist if you know there's there's no ecosystem of
• 42:22
  other gamers so i
• 42:24
  think india does provide a lot of value plus i have seen crazy
• 42:28
  numbers being spent
• 42:29
  from india as well even in palmville and umpires and allies so
• 42:33
  people do like to
• 42:34
  spend it it's a matter of value are you able to provide that
• 42:37
  value in your product
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: be it a movie be it a music album or be it video games
• 42:43
  There are some cultural nuances,
• 42:44
  of course,
• 42:45
  but slowly everything is changing in India.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: Raji was played by a prime minister last year.
• 42:55
  Yeah,
• 42:55
  and it was like an event they conducted with streamers,
• 43:00
  some famous video game streamers.
• 43:02
  So there was definitely that message being sent out that,
• 43:05
  hey,
• 43:06
  this is the next big thing.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a cultural change is...
• 43:13
  almost here because people now know a lot about games like
• 43:16
  black myth and there's a
• 43:18
  huge question going on out there where's the next black myth is
• 43:22
  it from india blah
• 43:23
  blah so that's still far sony hero product just got here x tab
• 43:27
  all these things
• 43:28
  have just started so hopefully and uh i have personally seen
• 43:32
  the quality go really
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: high in just few years
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Singh there.
• 43:38
  And he also talks about X.
• 43:39
  X-DAP is the Xbox Developer Accelerator Program.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard it called that, but that's what he calls the thing.
• 43:45
  The event,
• 43:45
  by the way,
• 43:45
  which is on this weekend,
• 43:47
  is co-organized by the Indian esports company.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Nodwin.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're running out of time.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: We had a lot to cram into this episode.
• 43:54
  I'd like to thank Corey for taking part,
• 43:56
  but you've got a gaming report coming out.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that right?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: So Variety Intelligence Platform,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: my team over at Luminate,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: we put out special reports on a monthly basis.
• 44:08
  So our May report,
• 44:09
  which is going to go live May 1st,
• 44:12
  is going to be all about gaming.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Also IP.
• 44:15
  It's sort of about gaming and IP together and what the gaming
• 44:19
  medium is coming to
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: mean to the IP space.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: where the opportunities are there,
• 44:24
  but also some typical core gaming industry data and stats from
• 44:29
  a variety of
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: third-party providers,
• 44:31
  but also incorporating some of Luminate's own data on the film
• 44:35
  and TV side and
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: streaming side as well.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: So when was that out, do you say?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: May 1st.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to that.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for joining us on the Game Business Show today.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for having me, Argus.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us this week on The Game Business Show.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back next week with our feature show and our news analysis show.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we'll have a bonus episode or two in there as well.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, thank you for tuning in.