Latest / The Schmidt Show PDX / Bench Pressed

Transcript

Bench Pressed · The Schmidt Show PDX

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, I'm Leif Olson, and I run theliferecording.com.
• 0:08
  I record audio-only life stories of parents and grandparents
• 0:13
  and set them to original music.
• 0:16
  It's a clean,
• 0:17
  unbroken hour to preserve your parents' voices before they're
• 0:21
  gone.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: Let's record your mom's laugh.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Visit theliferecording.com today.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Mike Schmidt,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: former district attorney turned podcaster,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm excited for today's episode.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's a topic I keep getting lots of questions about.
• 1:02
  The public defense crisis just blew up over 900 criminal cases
• 1:05
  in Multnomah County,
• 1:07
  and the sitting DA is freezing out an elected judge of the most
• 1:10
  serious cases and
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: targeting public defenders and other judges while he's at it.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: And on May 19th,
• 1:16
  you're going to have a chance to vote in judicial races that
• 1:19
  most Portlanders don't
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: even know are happening.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: This is one of those episodes where everything connects.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: The courthouse shapes your daily life more directly than almost any other
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: institution in this city.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Who sits on that bench,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: how prosecutors use their power,
• 1:32
  and whether people charged with protecting the system or
• 1:35
  actually protecting it or
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: undermining it.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Today we're getting into all of it.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: My guest is a good friend of mine,
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Professor Elisa Kaplan,
• 1:43
  a law professor at Lewis & Clark and director of the Criminal
• 1:46
  Justice Reform
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Clinic,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: Co-founder of the Oregon Innocent Project,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: among many other things in her career,
• 1:52
  recipient of the Oregon State Bar's highest honor and one of
• 1:54
  the most credentialed
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: criminal justice reform voices in this state,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: period.
• 2:00
  She's been watching these systems up close for decades,
• 2:02
  and I'm so glad she's here.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get into it.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Aliza.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for being here.
• 2:19
  So,
• 2:20
  you know,
• 2:20
  there's been a lot in the news around our criminal justice
• 2:23
  system.
• 2:25
  I have endeavored in this show to really talk about things that
• 2:28
  are positive and
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: good in the city of Portland.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: But of course,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: because of who I am and my background and previous role,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: I get questions all the time about what is happening.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I bet you do, too.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: I sure do.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: What are you hearing from folks?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: What are people asking you about?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: All sorts of things.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I also because of my role,
• 2:51
  I have a lot of students graduating law school and going into
• 2:55
  the criminal justice
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: system both as prosecutors and defense lawyers.
• 2:58
  So I'm constantly hearing stuff from them and their experiences
• 3:02
  as interns and externs.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where should I work and job stuff.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I hear a lot of that.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So people entering the system to work on both sides.
• 3:14
  I hear a lot about the public defender crisis,
• 3:17
  which affects both sides significantly.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I hear a lot about judges at all levels.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big problem.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot, actually.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: It really feels like it's bubbling up.
• 3:52
  Just hearing you talk about your students and the fact that
• 3:55
  they are thinking about
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: right now entering into the field,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: into their careers.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I graduated in 2008.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: Great time to be graduating law school.
• 4:05
  Many people coming out of law school at that time had a really
• 4:08
  difficult time
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: finding a job for a long while.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Is it similar to that right now?
• 4:14
  I mean,
• 4:14
  what's it like for people coming out of school trying to get a
• 4:17
  job?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: in general,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's in the 15 years I've been at Lewis & Clark,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: and I was a professor a few years before that on the East Coast.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's actually a good time.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're bridging on a moment where it might go wrong.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: But in a general sense, I think that it's a pretty good time.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: People are hiring, there's jobs.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: On the criminal justice side of things,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell students whatever's going on in the world and the economy,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: criminal justice is always a great area to go into.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like death and taxes.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can always get a job in criminal justice somewhere, right?
• 4:54
  It might not be exactly where you want,
• 4:56
  but you can always get a job,
• 4:57
  right?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And here in Oregon, especially, we have this major defense crisis.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was just going to say, we know we need defense attorneys.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we do.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately,
• 5:05
  I don't think that that matches up with how many people get
• 5:09
  hired and where and all
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: of that stuff.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: But we definitely have a significant problem all over the state.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's a perfect lead into one of the things.
• 5:18
  And one of the main reasons I wanted you on the show today is
• 5:20
  because the defense
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: attorney crisis has yet again bubbled up into the news.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, this is something I dealt with a lot as district attorney.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: We saw that we did not
• 5:30
  We did not have the number of attorneys that we needed to
• 5:33
  represent people charged with crimes.
• 5:35
  And that led to delays that led to cases being dismissed that
• 5:40
  led to victims not
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: seeing their cases be prosecuted that led to people.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Mike Schmidtshowp
• 6:05
  So we've had this public defender crisis for a really long time
• 6:09
  in Oregon,
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: and there's been a lot of different types of litigation around it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: This case,
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: which made it all the way to the Oregon Supreme Court,
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: was basically addressing how long people
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: So just for the audience,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: if someone is indigent under constitutional law,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: they are entitled to an assigned lawyer in their case.
• 6:40
  And so if you have the means,
• 6:42
  you'll probably go find a defense lawyer and pay for them.
• 6:45
  But if you don't have the means,
• 6:46
  which is the majority of people in our criminal justice system.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can get a signed one, and we call them public defenders.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they have already,
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: beyond the crisis in Oregon,
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: there's already an image,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: a stereotype of public defenders being overworked,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: underpaid,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: and all of that is 100% true in comparison to
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not on the defense, right?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: It means that like the defense side,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: the individual,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: it can't be held against them or anything like that.
• 7:41
  And I think one really important point that is raised in this
• 7:45
  opinion and always
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: true,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: when we arrest people pre-trial,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: with or without a lawyer assigned,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: they're innocent,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we all want that, right?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: We all want that for ourselves if we're in that situation.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And nothing,
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: they haven't been,
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: even if they've been charged with something,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: they haven't been through any process that declares them guilty.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Show PDX Show PDX
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: Mike Schmidtshowpdx
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like out of the gate.
• 8:47
  But when they themselves are accused of something or their
• 8:51
  family member or
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: somebody they know,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: right,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: then they then they get it.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Then they're like, oh, wait, you know, this hasn't been proven.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And as someone who has spent a lot of my 27 years as a lawyer at New
• 9:00
  In different capacities representing innocent people who were
• 9:04
  wrongfully convicted
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: and imprisoned for 5,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: 10,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: 20,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: 30,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: 50 years,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: you see that our system fails when we do convict people.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, go all the way back to the beginning.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it is really wrong to hold people long term without process.
• 9:34
  You just brought up one more point that I think is often
• 9:37
  overlooked is that a
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: well-resourced defense bar actually is better for the system.
• 9:44
  It's better for everybody because if people get a robust and
• 9:48
  vigorous defense that
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: they are constitutionally guaranteed,
• 9:51
  that means that later on when you get to the appeals process or
• 9:55
  looking at these
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: cases later on,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: we are a lot more likely to have gotten it right.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that people's rights were actually adhered to and followed.
• 10:07
  And that means that we don't have to go through relitigating
• 10:10
  all these things.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: Those appeals cost money.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: It creates uncertainty, uncertainty for the victims and the community.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it creates a lot of anxiety for everybody, everybody involved.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:23
  you have to think of the criminal legal system as a machine and
• 10:28
  all the parts have
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: to be working,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: correctly.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: They have to be funded properly.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Mike Schmidtshow
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: I recall,
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: because this happened to me personally,
• 11:07
  during my second campaign and in the debates and debating with
• 11:11
  my opponent,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: who's now the district attorney,
• 11:14
  he made claims that he would solve the defense crisis on the
• 11:16
  first day in office.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what happened with that?
• 11:20
  So here we are a year and a half later and 900 cases are
• 11:24
  dismissed in Multnomah County.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: So clearly that that did not come to pass.
• 11:30
  And a statement was made or a comment was made that the current
• 11:34
  DA really hopes
• 11:34
  that system stakeholders will really self reflect in this
• 11:38
  moment as if the district
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: attorney has nothing to do with the defense attorney crisis.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Help folks,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: if you can,
• 11:45
  like what is the DA's role in thinking about the system and how
• 11:50
  to utilize the
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: resources?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe everyone should reflect.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:56
  making decisions on who gets prosecuted is one of the biggest
• 12:00
  reasons why there's
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: so many cases without lawyers in DA's.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Mike Schmidt Schmidtshowp
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: is helping one of our local defense organizations,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Metropolitan Public Defender,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: handle the number of misdemeanor cases.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So on one level,
• 12:27
  because our current DA is prosecuting so many misdemeanors that
• 12:32
  I would argue is
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: unnecessary,
• 12:34
  My students tell me it's mostly like homeless people with
• 12:37
  mental illness and it's
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: good experience for them,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: as lawyers.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also really sad that that's who we're throwing in jail, right?
• 12:45
  Or fining or rather than all of us working together to fix some
• 12:48
  of those problems.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 12:51
  making a choice to prosecute tons of low level crimes like a
• 12:56
  homeless person
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: trespassing or something like that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Prosecuting them won't make them
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, we've already been down this road, right?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: We've already been down this road over and over.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not strictly, obviously, the DA's message problem.
• 13:09
  But,
• 13:10
  you know,
• 13:10
  the DA has a role in prosecuting hundreds and hundreds of cases
• 13:14
  at that level.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen the breakdown of those cases,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm guessing a ton of them are misdemeanor cases.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: with regard to the numbers of cases that are being dismissed,
• 13:27
  the DA holds the most power because they're the ones making the
• 13:31
  decision on who to
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: prosecute.
• 13:32
  But in a general sense,
• 13:34
  again,
• 13:34
  this is a system that is broken in so many ways.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's ever going to improve with regard to anything...
• 13:42
  All the players have to be on the same page working together
• 13:46
  and realizing how they
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: all affect each other.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's true about all the problems that we have in our society,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: but we can't just hand it over to someone else,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what the court is saying in State v.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Roberts,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: and many people have been saying for a really long time,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: not just in Oregon,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: is that...
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: If we really want to be a just,
• 14:07
  fair criminal legal system that is in line with the
• 14:11
  Constitution of the United
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: States and Oregon's Constitution,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: then this is how it's going to be,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's going to keep being like this,
• 14:21
  and it's not going to get better until everyone gets on the
• 14:24
  same page and really
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: figures out how to ensure safety,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: but along with maintaining people's rights.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the last piece, I think, is cost.
• 14:34
  We can never underestimate how much doing it wrong costs on
• 14:41
  every level from beginning to end.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an immediate gratification society.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we just lock up all this homeless people for a minute,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: it looks good to a DA,
• 14:53
  but it's not really solving any problems and it's really never
• 14:55
  going to end.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: You can go out there and brag about your stats and then also not have
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: accountability for your contribution to the problem.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: I remember when I was running the state's criminal justice commission,
• 15:07
  we'd look at the Washington State Institute of Public Policy
• 15:11
  and they did some
• 15:12
  amazing cost analyses of the criminal system and they really
• 15:16
  quantify it from
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: Police interaction to courtroom,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: prosecutor,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: defense,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: judge,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: to conviction,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: to probation,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: whatever the intervention,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: jail,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: prison is.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's a cost, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: And there's something...
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a long time since I looked at those studies,
• 15:35
  but I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that for a
• 15:40
  misdemeanor prosecution,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: you're going to be spending definitely thousands of dollars.
• 15:44
  My recollection is around $10,000 for a single case that is
• 15:48
  going to end up in
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: No meaningful treatment,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: no meaningful supervision,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: no meaningful what some might call accountability or whatever it is.
• 15:57
  And that person will be no less homeless than they were the day
• 15:59
  that they were arrested.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:01
  And in that process,
• 16:02
  that person's being charged all sorts of funds and fees.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: maybe,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: they're homeless,
• 16:08
  but maybe they had a job and then they lost their job because
• 16:11
  they're in the system
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: or they spend a certain amount of time in a jail.
• 16:14
  And,
• 16:14
  you know,
• 16:15
  every little thing,
• 16:17
  you know,
• 16:17
  really affects someone's life.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say all of that to say,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's also so important to recognize like the
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Real physical and emotional harm is something different.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: But on all these lower level cases, it's just like spinning wheels.
• 16:49
  Like no one's really being satisfied and it doesn't really make
• 16:52
  a lot of sense to me.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile,
• 16:54
  we have a multi-million dollar deflection center that the last
• 16:58
  I saw the data about
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: two people per day were accessing.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: And instead of
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: Thinking about how all of these lower level cases,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: maybe we could get those folks into treatment,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: into connection of services and deflect them out of the system.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to
• 17:14
  I think it's also really interesting in the moment that our
• 17:17
  last DA took office and
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: as we move forward,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: we had the post-COVID,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: like every other city and place in the country,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: it was grim and things have gotten better.
• 17:30
  And I just feel like that really has nothing to do with who the
• 17:34
  DA is,
• 17:35
  right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's just like a cyclical.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at DAs in other areas,
• 17:40
  States that are,
• 17:40
  you know,
• 17:41
  super conservative or more liberal or whatever.
• 17:44
  Everyone had the exact same data and changes going on over like
• 17:48
  the two years,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: two or three years after COVID.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's was natural.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think often that's true.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:56
  But but what I'm now seeing a little bit is as the state is
• 18:00
  having a lot of
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: financial problems,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: as a criminal justice reformer,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes I get like excited a little about a about
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Financial stuff,
• 18:09
  because I know that it will force people to take a closer look
• 18:14
  at what are we
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: doing.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that combined with a case like Roberts shows you that,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: we're not we're not doing a good job.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the financial piece is a big time.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's time to maybe have some of those conversations of,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:29
  what are we spending our money on and what who are we
• 18:32
  prosecuting and all of that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that gets us back into the courts.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for bringing us back around.
• 18:39
  There's actually something kind of exciting for us judicial
• 18:42
  nerds here in Multnomah
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: County that is rare.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: We have a primary election coming up on May 19th,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: and it is very rare to have contested judicial elections for open seats.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: Sure is.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that is typically for two reasons.
• 19:01
  One,
• 19:02
  a lot of times judges step down midterm and allow the governor
• 19:07
  to appoint their successor.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: So there is no original weighing in of the electorate.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: That person ends up running as the incumbent.
• 19:17
  And the second part of this is judges rarely draw opposition
• 19:21
  once they're the incumbent.
• 19:22
  So essentially most judges,
• 19:25
  I would say probably in our state,
• 19:27
  definitely in Multnomah County,
• 19:28
  Have never faced an opponent in an election despite having to
• 19:32
  run for office every
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: time their position comes up.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: But that's different this time.
• 19:36
  Well,
• 19:37
  there are three open seats of retiring judges that are leaving
• 19:41
  the bench.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so people are filing to fill those positions.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: And there's one not open, but now suddenly contested race.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll get into that and the reasons for that a little bit later.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: But tell us, let's just talk a little bit about electing judges.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: I really love the conversation about electing versus appointing.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: I will say this governor,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: her practice has generally been,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: she does throw it to the elections,
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: which I kind of appreciate.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's one of the most important things that we vote for.
• 20:14
  I always get really happy when friends of mine that aren't
• 20:17
  lawyers send me messages
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: which judge should I vote for?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's a crucial election, not just in
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really important to look at the nuances of
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well that's exactly what I wanted to ask you next.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Bridges also have ethical constraints about how they campaign.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: When I was district attorney,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: I could be out there about,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: here are my ideas,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: here's what I think we should do differently,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: and here's what I want to change in the system,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: the executive branch.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: The judicial branch has a different role.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: They are supposed to be the nonpartisan, the impartial.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: They're the umpires.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: They're the referees.
• 21:20
  Controversies come in front of them,
• 21:22
  and they have to make decisions based on the law.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so their personal preferences shouldn't matter.
• 21:28
  And also they don't want to be out there talking about those
• 21:32
  things because a case
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: might come in front of them.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 21:35
  And both sides of any controversy are entitled to a fair and
• 21:39
  impartial and neutral.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 21:41
  And so it does make it very hard to discern,
• 21:45
  like,
• 21:45
  who are these people writing for judgment?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: How do I figure out which one I like?
• 21:49
  And the other part I always think is interesting is if they
• 21:51
  were practicing lawyers
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: before,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: which they all were,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: they had a side on something.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so people automatically think,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: if they were a prosecutor,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: then they think a certain way.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: If they were a medical malpractice lawyer, they think a certain way.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: If they're a defense lawyer, they think a certain way.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we really need these people to be objective, impartial.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing I will say is I can name,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I won't,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: but I can name off the top of my head at every level of court in Oregon,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: judges who were former prosecutors that I think are incredible judges,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: excellent,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: objective,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: kind,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: all of those things.
• 22:31
  And maybe when they were advocating a lot,
• 22:33
  you know,
• 22:33
  in their role as district attorney or
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Mike Schmidtsch
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: and really doing their job of weighing the issues,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: the law,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: and everything in front of them for any individual case.
• 23:02
  So don't hold against them that they were good advocates
• 23:04
  because they were doing their job.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: If they were excellent advocates,
• 23:08
  that means they were doing exactly what they were supposed to
• 23:10
  do in their job.
• 23:11
  And we want them to do exactly what they're supposed to do in a
• 23:14
  job as a judge.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: So how does a voter figure out who was an excellent advocate, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's the change.
• 23:21
  And what they do is they text Aliza and they text Mike and they
• 23:24
  text their lawyer friend and
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Who do I vote for?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:28
  I feel very much that it's a character issue or someone that I
• 23:34
  believe is trustworthy.
• 23:36
  Think about,
• 23:37
  you know,
• 23:38
  when they were advocating,
• 23:39
  like,
• 23:39
  were they ethical?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Did they
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: How do they compose themselves in a courtroom?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: How do they speak to people?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do people like working for them?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do people like working with them?
• 23:59
  Those are the kinds of things because I think those show how a
• 24:02
  person would be
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: under any context.
• 24:05
  Even when they're writing up of their voter pamphlet,
• 24:08
  what are they focused on?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And read their materials, their website, all of those kinds of things.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost the old, would you have a beer with them?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, a little bit.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: But also, you know, I've been in court with even defense lawyers.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen them not treat themselves.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Can they be objective, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: In my role,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: because I run a clinic and we represent people in prison,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: lots of people think I'm not capable of being objective,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: yet I teach law school and of course I always am addressing both sides.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like people don't really know what I think and feel, right?
• 25:05
  So I think any way you can kind of get in and really try to
• 25:08
  figure out what
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: people's true feelings are,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: the best way to do that is how do they treat people?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 25:16
  So do you want to shout out any particular candidates that you
• 25:18
  think people should
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: give a hard look to?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, there's two people running right now.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: One works at the law school, Joe Perini Abbott.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: I know her to be at the federal level.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: She's done a lot of defense work.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: She worked for a private firm.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't really know her in that context.
• 25:35
  The context I know her in teaching at the law school,
• 25:40
  she works with our advocacy center.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so she does all the mock trial competitions.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: She brings lawyers in to work with the students.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: and judge the students.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: She teaches a class on like trial advocacy and that kind of stuff.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I hear from the students how amazing she is,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: how much she cares about them,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: how much,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: no matter what their goals are.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really important.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know that that's something I work really hard on no matter what my
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: She's really, really smart.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I got to sit down with Joe and have this conversation.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was so impressed.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've had many of the aspiring judicial candidates reach out to me.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: As a former elected official who's done this before,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: most of them,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: if not all of them,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: have no prior experience in electoral politics or anything.
• 26:55
  So I talked to a lot of them and I got to tell you,
• 26:57
  top of the list for me.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I sent her my endorsement.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a fan.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's really excellent human too.
• 27:04
  And I think if I remember correctly,
• 27:06
  her husband actually works in law enforcement.
• 27:08
  So she has every day at her house has like a perspective that I
• 27:12
  don't think a lot
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: of us have,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: like that might be different from her own,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: which I think is interesting.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: She's also kind of like a superwoman.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like she does so much.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's from New York originally, so...
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like us, right?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like people who just do too much, right?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: But get it all done.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, she's very impressive.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that my old friend Chris Baer is running.
• 27:36
  I know Chris originally from when I spent some time in the
• 27:40
  public defender office
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: creating a community law division.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was there a couple of years and that's where I got to know him.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he's just one of those defense lawyers that has been at it forever.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think he actually did some...
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know he's been a defender a lot of his career.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: But in my role working,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: creating community law,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really see him in action or anything like that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I just saw how lovely he always was to everybody.
• 28:19
  And he is just kind of one of the nicest people that I've met,
• 28:24
  you know,
• 28:24
  working in the system.
• 28:26
  One of the things I appreciate about Chris is he is the public
• 28:30
  defender in my step court.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, that's right.
• 28:33
  Which is one of the only that I'm aware of courts in the nation
• 28:37
  that takes people
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: that have been convicted of serious crimes and says,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: instead of prison,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to give you a chance at rehabilitation.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's been wildly successful.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: I know PSU is doing a study on this, so it'll come out at some point.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:52
  The early results that I saw of recidivism rates are way below
• 28:56
  what they would be
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: for sending people to prison or other types of interventions.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: Chris has been a key person in that court.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's been great.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's good.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 29:07
  I'm glad that maybe if you're listening to this and you're
• 29:10
  preparing your voter
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: pamphlet or looking at judges,
• 29:14
  check out those two candidates among the others and weigh some
• 29:19
  of the things we
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: talked about.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: That leads into the fourth judicial race.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: That I want to touch on.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: And this is also a rarity because this is Judge Adrian Brown,
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: who has suddenly drawn an opponent.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: And as I started off this segment of the judges,
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: we talked about how rare it is for a sitting judge,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: an incumbent to draw an opponent.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: But Judge Brown has done so.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not in a vacuum.
• 29:48
  There was an article that came out in the Oregonian in the past
• 29:51
  couple weeks about
• 29:53
  how the current DA is affidaviting or they use the word
• 29:57
  disqualifying Judge Brown
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_03: from hearing the most serious cases that the office can bring.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: Could you just talk a little, what does that mean?
• 30:07
  How can one elected official sideline a different elected
• 30:12
  official from a different branch?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: What does this mean, a DA disqualifying a judge?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 30:16
  I'll just say in general that any lawyer can move to affidavit
• 30:21
  or disqualify a
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: judge in a particular case.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've done it before too, but usually it's based on...
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Something like, you know, tangible, right?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe there's some kind of conflict or...
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not a process that never happens.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: It happens.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: But it sounds like it's usually more case by case.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's case by case.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 31:02
  if you don't think your client's going to get a fair experience
• 31:08
  with this judge,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: then it's on you as a lawyer,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: to do that,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's based on personality.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: The people vote just like any other elected office.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And to think that anyone in the system can come and,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: blanket,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: blanket,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: disqualify them seems completely inappropriate in every way.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: For whatever reason, people vote for judges.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's they're there.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because of an electoral process and, you know, barring some
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Show PDX
• 32:19
  How someone is ruling in cases seems,
• 32:24
  you know,
• 32:24
  it's really not a good enough reason.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: But there's nowhere to go.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's no way to appeal it.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way.
• 32:31
  And it also silences judges from feeling like,
• 32:34
  oh,
• 32:35
  are they going to do this to me?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about that.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, why would...
• 32:40
  I mean,
• 32:40
  we see this happening at the very top level of our government,
• 32:43
  right?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Donald Trump has targeted judges over and over and over again.
• 32:47
  And that leads to those judges receiving death threats and
• 32:51
  leads to those judges
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: being ostracized as if they aren't doing their job and impartial.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: And we see it now at the most local levels.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to me, a move like that is Trumpian.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to court.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean-
• 33:29
  It just felt like petty also,
• 33:31
  which is also what reminds me of Donald Trump.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't see in anything written,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm sure because they read the report,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: the Argonian,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: without a doubt,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: would have laid out if there were some really serious ethical violations.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the thing, right?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Then appeal it.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what we do.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're lawyers.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we do.
• 34:06
  So to just do a blanket disqualification because you don't like
• 34:11
  some of these
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: little process things in in particular feels very authoritarian.
• 34:17
  Trumpian to just sort of say out with this judge,
• 34:22
  forget this person,
• 34:23
  I'm not doing this.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is not the role of our disqualification affidavit system.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's definitely not,
• 34:34
  shouldn't be the role of a district attorney or the head of the
• 34:37
  public defender
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: office or anyone with power to make those kinds of decisions.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: The people voted, whether it's Judge Brown or someone else, and
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Mike Schmidtshowp
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right, I think I read that too.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a pattern of bullying going on right now?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly the word.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I say, Trumpian.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of mean bullying, but from like an authoritarian bullying, right?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just you're bullying someone next to you.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're bullying from above, right?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it also, that's demeaning to his own lawyer in some way, right?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's bullying to your own lawyer.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: The person at top,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's a DA or the head of the defense office,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: their job isn't to get involved in the nitty gritty of the cases.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let the players do their jobs.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't like a ruling, you appeal it.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: The only exception to that,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: is if there's serious,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: serious ethical concerns,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: not a mistake or one interaction.
• 36:14
  But if there are serious,
• 36:15
  serious ethical concerns,
• 36:17
  then it needs to be raised.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the obligation in that role.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's very troubling.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to just say again,
• 36:25
  like the Trumpian aspect of that bullying from above sort of
• 36:30
  really silences other
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: judges,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, hopefully it won't, but I mean, it could.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And any judge that feels like,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: if I do something so minor,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: so little,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: or someone doesn't like my ruling,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: this is going to happen.
• 36:43
  It just feels like there should be some way within the system
• 36:46
  to appeal that or
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: because if not,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: how do we know that it's not going to affect people?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it goes back to, again, judges rarely draw opponents, right?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: The timing of this article- Absolutely.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: ... was timed to come out while people could file against Judge Brown.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: The article comes out, and within a day, she suddenly has an opponent.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was planned.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: it was absolutely- I feel like,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: it's working for the district attorney,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: but I feel like I've seen that firsthand,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: how he's used the media-
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: and the court in a certain way,
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: like it's happened in a couple of my early cases.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it was so uncomfortable because it's like playing dirty.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, politics dirty, I guess.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: But as someone who, you know, works really hard.
• 37:43
  Like just to be an ethical person and lawyer,
• 37:46
  but also I teach people to be lawyers.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's really important to me that ethics is always front and center.
• 37:53
  Any single thing that comes up,
• 37:55
  we raise,
• 37:55
  we talk about,
• 37:56
  we talk about all sides.
• 37:59
  And so I saw it firsthand in some of the handling of my cases,
• 38:04
  back-end cases early on.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's like playing dirty.
• 38:08
  And that feels so uncomfortable to me from,
• 38:11
  he's an elected official also.
• 38:14
  And I guess I shouldn't be so surprised,
• 38:16
  like a lot of people in politics,
• 38:18
  they play dirty.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's more and more and more, you know, as the days go on.
• 38:23
  I can certainly see that from my own experience from when I
• 38:26
  started this work.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Mike Schmidtshowpdx
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Even when someone does something really wrong in our system,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: it's like there's ripple effects on all sides.
• 38:50
  And so many people get brought into crime,
• 38:54
  families,
• 38:55
  communities,
• 38:56
  right,
• 38:56
  on all sides.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think it's not an area to play fast and loose.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 39:02
  and as we talked about and when we were talking about how to
• 39:05
  choose a judge,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: we talked about we want those fair,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: impartial individuals who can get in there,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: give everybody a fair shake.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: Judges are human beings.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was just going to say that.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: They're just people.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're doing their best, hopefully.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: They are not robots or automatons.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: Things do influence their decisions.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: And as a human, if suddenly you are thinking to yourself,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: Mike Schmidtshowpdx
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: and also in Judge Brown's situation,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: and this is what the fear is,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: it's not,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: if someone reads that entire article,
• 39:57
  I think they would see that it's petty and coming out of
• 40:00
  nowhere and maybe
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: political and,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: But most people don't read the whole article.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Show PDX
• 40:22
  in the universe or in the county or in the,
• 40:24
  you know,
• 40:24
  that that maybe she's not ethical.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing in there about that.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, really?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's a this is so classic Oregonian.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: They had two legal experts weigh in.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, they're on both sides.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: And one legal expert is a person who I'm sure is very well credentialed,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: but not a local player that I'm familiar with.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: The other was Norm Frank.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why didn't anyone call me to at least give a local other perspective?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right, as if he's like some local neutral arbiter.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: The two experts from other law schools were fine.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they both, I think, were on the same page.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: They were.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they both said, you know, there were some emails or something.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was not good.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: But they actually said, both said in her rulings, like, what's going on?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: This seems over the top.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then they bring in the local person.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: who has absolutely what?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Complete Vasquez booster.
• 41:22
  Like a guy who is completely willing behind the scenes to pull
• 41:26
  the strings,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: plant the stories,
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: do the dirty politics stuff.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then they put him in there as another expert.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's so bizarre.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's so Oregonian.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's so Oregonian.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: I know, it's so frustrating.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think, you know, this only works if it works.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: If the DA can do this,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: if he can be successful,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: if he can bully somebody,
• 41:47
  it does really cause concern about what that impact is going to
• 41:53
  be on the rest of
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: the bench.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I think voters,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: as they are looking in May,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: should really consider as they evaluate these choices,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: what is going into some of these races and what the impacts could be.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll also just say,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: it goes back to kind of what I was saying before,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: is how do you weigh people,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 42:09
  You weigh them by character,
• 42:11
  you weigh them by ethics,
• 42:12
  you weigh by how they treat people.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that anyone who uses their politics in such a negative,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: sort of nasty way,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: like that's like Vasquez is telling us who he is.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely like,
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: just politics wise,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: like obviously we're friends and I was very supportive of you,
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: but I can go back to the DA before you.
• 42:39
  And like,
• 42:40
  I wouldn't say a lot of what I would say about Vasquez's
• 42:45
  behavior on a lot of things.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say that about Underhill.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I recall.
• 43:08
  But I feel like this is like really politic-y and so let's not
• 43:14
  forget that like
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: he's showing us who he is too.
• 43:17
  And when you're voting for anyone in any election,
• 43:19
  those things are important.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: one of the missions of this show is to try to lift up good news,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: but also to educate people.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we've hit the educational component pretty good, hopefully.
• 43:33
  But what's something that's giving you hope these days,
• 43:36
  either locally or in whatever way?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: first of all,
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just say like,
• 43:42
  I wouldn't be able to have been doing this work for 27 years
• 43:45
  unless I was always
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: kind of hopeful.
• 43:47
  And I don't have expectations that I'm going to be successful
• 43:51
  and all the things I do.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I get a lot of inspiration from
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a very hopeful person.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: if I can think of one thing specifically that's on my mind right now,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would say is,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: the amazing misdemeanor clinic that we have at the law school.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's funded by the legislature.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 44:34
  All three law schools have,
• 44:36
  you know,
• 44:37
  some version of it,
• 44:38
  although it looks really different.
• 44:39
  And Lewis and Clark's is really incredible with the number of
• 44:43
  students that get to
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: participate and the amount of training they're getting.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they're just like nice.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Show PDX
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have my first trial or I have my first hearing or,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: can you come watch and things like that.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me,
• 45:22
  that's just always hopeful and exciting and inspiring and makes
• 45:26
  me feel like,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: I can there's a time,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can slowly start to rest a little,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:33
  I can move into the fade into the background and let them all
• 45:37
  take the take the
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: baton.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: That almost feels like spring to me.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it does.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's exactly what I was.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly it.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: in the actual criminal legal system,
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: that's like more of like a personal related thing.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, over at the clinic, we've got a lot of great things going on.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we just do our thing.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Policies change, DAs change, whatever.
• 45:58
  And we're just keeping our heads down and trying to get people
• 46:01
  out of prison.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: We mostly work on the,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: with people who've committed the most serious crimes that have parole.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we're just working on lots of stuff in the prisons.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And there's always work to do that can change people's lives.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's always very inspiring.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for that.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'll break some news on this podcast.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't even told you this yet.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to be an adjunct professor at PSU in the fall.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm going to be teaching a class on crime and politics.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love this.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Something I know something about.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's so great.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm really looking forward to it.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Lisa Kaplan, thank you so much for coming on The Schmidt Show.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was fun.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Finally.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's our show for today.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: One conversation, but boy, we covered a lot of ground.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: The Roberts decision,
• 47:00
  the public defense crisis and what's happening with the
• 47:02
  district attorney and Judge
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: Brown and why judicial elections coming up on May 19th matter.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: Mike Schmidt Schmidtshowp
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: Your vote in those races is real and it matters.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: Watch what candidates have actually done,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: read their backgrounds,
• 47:39
  use the Oregon voting guide and decide for yourself who you
• 47:42
  trust to be fair,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: independent and steady when the pressure is on.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's your job as a voter.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: No
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's how this works, one conversation at a time.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: And as always, if this show means something to you, please like, follow,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Wesley Schmidt Stay safe out there And we'll see you next time