Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #42-Jon Ganues

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Episode #42-Jon Ganues · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth, The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipsteam.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, good morning, Don.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: How is that uh water tower on your island uh with that little light on top of it and uh the eagle's nest?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Did you walk around it this morning?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're a funny man.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, it it was a lighthouse for a while.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um Greg says claimed that I was walking around an island with a lighthouse.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and now it is it truly is a water tower.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have three water towers on the island.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is it really?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Here it was just joking around.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: There is a water tower, but um, and there's an eagle's nest on top.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: There is no light on top, but but there's an eagle's nest.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the eagle is a light.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, I I gotta share with you, and I I have a feeling um the world uh feels similarly to me.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh feeling a lot of grief this morning uh over Dolly Parton.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh what uh a gem of a person uh we have lost.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um just incredible um the gifts that she has you know given us.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's unbelievable.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um a friend of mine posted that it was an end of an era in so many ways of just a really classy uh person, a lot of just uh legwork that she did.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: She put a lot into the community as well, and and nonprofits and things.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And there's not, I don't think there's a person on this planet that could say a negative thing about her.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like she just uh she exuded positivity and and love and compassion and just wonderful person.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree more.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Don, we have got an incredible guest on here.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um we both know John.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna give you the privilege of introducing him.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh we're all three dads who have lost children.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: We've all three met in different uh circles, um, mainly through TAPS, the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, Don, without further ado, go ahead and introduce John Gaynus to us.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be happy to, much like Dolly Parton.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh John has uh so many gifts that he has given uh his the people in its orbit.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it may not be as big as Dolly Parton's, but I know his heart um is just as large.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um I met John at TAPS in Colorado Springs.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was uh in line uh to register for the um uh tap's tragedy assistance program for survivors suicide uh survivor seminar.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um geez, John, what year was that?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure, maybe 2014.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds that sounds about right.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um he was in line to register, and I I took a look at him and I'm like, hmm.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I said, uh, are you here for the peer mentor training?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh people were uh coming in early for that.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And he said he was.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I just remember him being in the class and uh just I don't know, connect I felt very connected to you almost immediately.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we've spent a lot of time together uh doing men's retreats, uh peer mentoring, working uh together.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh we had a a year, at least a year over overlapping where we worked together at TAPS.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh just a great man.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I consider a really good friend, um uh fellow bereaved father.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and anyway, welcome, John.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, welcome, John.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel the same way.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I you know I got a chance to meet you virtually uh for several years on uh the TAPS men's call, and then uh had the opportunity a couple years ago down in Austin, Texas, uh, to meet you on site and spend a weekend with you uh at a parents' retreat.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that was priceless.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: That was just uh real memory maker for me.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was a good opportunity, and uh I am pleasured to be able to have that opportunity to be able to do that.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, John, without further ado, uh, welcome to this podcast.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um we uh folks, we try to keep this podcast organic.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have a list of questions ahead of time, we don't know what we're gonna talk about.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we'd like to do is we just kind of like to start off with giving our guests the opportunity to share um where his grief journey started.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually through the you know uh formation of the podcast, we we tried to abide by the title of Turning Grief into Growth and what that growth kind of looks like for you, John.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So your grief uh journey started uh June 2nd of uh 2009, 17 years ago, when your son Wesley passed away.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um tell us a little bit about that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for me.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I would like to also add that um left out the park when we first met.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so Wesley uh was in the Air Force Air Force meeting in in uh Augusta, Georgia, and he tragically died by suicide.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um that led me eventually um actually about two years later connecting with taps and then in 2012 going to a suicide seminar in um San Diego.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: That time in my life after John passed, um, as you can imagine, um it was very difficult for for me and my family.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I as a father and a man struggled with that.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and went through all the things what I could have done to prevent that from happening, etc.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the beating yourself up.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: But as I connected with communication and connected with folks like Don and others, and I began to realize that um there was a path forward, um not a you know easy path, but it was a path forward um that was gonna have challenges along the way.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was able to um focus on self-improvement and moving forward finding out what's the next that was the biggest thing.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm a different person now.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: What's the next in my life?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: So locally I turned to volunteering in my community and eventually becoming a peer mentor, like Don said, and connecting with other men.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't alone as a surviving father, but also wasn't alone as a surviving surviving suicide.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And once I was able to overcome those difficulties, it allowed me to move forward in my grief journey and uh which led me to a career tap, sure career, but a career tap helping other men and other parents and other survivors, because I just didn't you know solely concentrate on men.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: It was all survivors that I had in contact with.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, retiring and right now I'm in that I call the three R phase.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually four R.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Retired after I retired, I took the time to relax, refresh, and reflect.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I am now.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Retire, relax.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: What was the third one?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Relax, reflect, retire.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Reflect and then uh refresh.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm writing that down.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no we're retirement.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm writing it down.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, John, you talked about um a path forward.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Your quote was there was a path forward uh with challenges along the way.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And what is the next in my life?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a very self-aware comment uh because a lot of people uh are not aware of a path forward uh that are grieving earlier on, and they don't know if there is a next for them.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So talk to us about how you kind of became aware of that and uh what that looked like for you, because we know that um everybody grieves differently.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like men grieve differently than women do.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: We've had Dr.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Frank Campbell on this podcast twice, and he really spells out some of the differences on that.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, somebody that uh had um a death from an illness might grieve differently than somebody from a suicide or an auto accident, like my son, where it was an instant uh passing where you didn't get to say goodbye, uh type thing.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: But talk to us about how you became kind of self-aware into that there was a path forward and that there was there was a next for your life and what that looked like for you.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Very simply seeing others who had losses before me, how they were uh moving forward and giving back.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I went to a men's retreat in Montana.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um Don was there, and what happened was I had men come to me near the end of that retreat who told me thanks for what you said, multiple men.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in my mind I didn't think I said anything special, um and I didn't remember what I said but it it had an effect on them and it kind of touched me.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I went back another year and had the same thing happen and realized, you know, through my own experience of watching other men, you know, move forward in their grief, I evidently was moving forward in mine, and I had to find a way to give back to the man coming behind me.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's always gonna be somebody coming behind you, and so that's when I decided to become a peer mentor.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it was the other men who I saw, one in particular that I'll name that I know Don knows, um OB and O'Brien.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: In San Diego, I was standing out on the dock by myself kind of wondering how I got there, being overwhelmed by all the people because it was our first event.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: He walked out on a dock, um, the conversation, and through that conversation, um saw some some hope of being where he was.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was the inspiration of others how they were navigating that made me realize that there was a path forward.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my path was not necessarily going to be the same as theirs, but I had to get on my path and move forward.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, John, you you spoke of um uh a lot here, but uh one of the things that uh you said that you didn't realize what you were saying was making you know any kind of impact.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you didn't even remember uh what you had said.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think about that, and it it's almost like we're changing without recognizing that we're changing.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um can can you talk to that at all?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Can you speak to so when I was on a survivor care team and I did outreach to other fathers, one of the things that I always pointed out to them at the end of our uh time together, they would always say, John, I'm I'm not making any progress.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I'm not going anywhere.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: This this is hopeless.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to point out to them that when I first talked to them, they could barely say their sons or daughters names.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: And now they were really talking about them.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it is it's one of those things that it takes time, but also takes somebody else pointing out to you your progress because we don't evaluate ourselves like that normally.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we don't say, Well, I started here and now I'm here, especially in the Greek world because there's so many other things going on besides your Greek, you know, life as well.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: So having people point out to you directly or indirectly, how you have changed in a positive way gives you that confidence that you are making progress.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because without it, you you just don't know.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So and your people it's not people who are closest to you that always give you that feedback.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're in the grief cycle as well.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's those outside who observe you know how you were after their loss and where you are now, whether it's a month, six months, a year, ten years.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, affirmation, uh, and and and validation, um, which I I always uh recognized with you that you you did so well.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know when I watched you work, so grateful.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it brings up you know a topic for me when you're talking about those closest to you versus those maybe on the outside.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we've talked a lot about peer support groups and the whole essence of the importance of that uh for the empathy aspect.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're just surrounded by, say, family members that have really good intentions of giving really good advice, uh, sometimes it could be skewed because they don't understand and they don't know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was just at a men's breakfast this morning, and uh one of the men's uh had lost his daughter-in-law seven months ago.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking about how his son's just really having a hard time.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: He's um a self-employed person, keeping up with the books and things like this.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, you know, he's really uh stuck.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they're just he's really taking this hard.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know, it's only seven months ago.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't consider it stuck unless it's after a year or something, and even that you can't put a timeline on it.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: But there's this act of mourning phase that you go through.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And people mean well, but they say the darndest things uh sometimes is as well.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you feel about you know the sphere of influence of people that are in your circle?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I've always said you can't cut off those around you that are family unless they're very caustic uh to your grief journey, but you have to incorporate others in um that maybe can't empathize, maybe a little more peer support.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned OB and some of those others.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: What did that look like for you in your grief journey?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: I uh was lucky in the fact that I didn't have anybody telling me, uh, John, it's been X amount of time, get over it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of people who have.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um people I think generally people family, friends, and colleagues at work have good intentions uh about giving you advice about how to deal with grief.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it's always it always comes out wrong and inappropriate, um and it ends up forcing you to put a wall up to protect yourself and your family.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's unfortunate.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: But things like they're in a better place may sound nice coming out of somebody's mouth, but the person receiving it, you know, the better place for their loved one is with them.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um or sorry to hear you lost your your son.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Potentially you have, you know, other that doesn't make somebody feel better about losing their their son.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um so those words that people say carry a lot of weight.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of times what we need is just somebody to be there for us to listen, not to tell us what to do or how to feel.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Especially if they've not lost a spouse, a sibling, a child, a parent.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you've not had that same loss, you have no way of even coming close to feeling the same kind of feeling.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna have the same feeling.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can never say, I know how you feel.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: No, you you never will.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Greg and I often talk about uh you know before before David, after David, before Josh, after Josh.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I've only known you um, you know, after Wesley has died.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering if you could describe yourself uh before Wesley died and and after Wesley died.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, that's a great question, Don.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: I I I think the before Wesley down was a very stoic person who um would not stop and think twice about necessary, you know, giving uh offering help to people, and I don't mean that in a cold way, but I wouldn't go out of my way, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um if I you know saw somebody who needed help that I didn't know were struggling, I just keep right on moving.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now I I have so much more compassion for other people.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um I offer help often, and people are shocked that I'm even stopping to offer help or whatever.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um I like the John now.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm I'm not happy that John's not here this way.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: I like the John now.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, not that John before was a terrible person, um, but I'm more um compassionate and caring about others and their plight.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I I like helping.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: I love giving back uh to my community, uh, family and friends.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think I'm in a great place now.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm comfortable in in that space.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think all three of us would say the same thing.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know I would.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I wasn't a horrible person before, but I love harder.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I empathize you know better.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I take time to smell the roses, enjoy nature more uh now than I never did before, and don't take things for granted.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like I I love life uh much better now uh than I did before.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and like you said, don't take anything for granted and and have a lot more compassion for people than I did.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one topic I want to delve into, uh not just with you, John, but Don and I, um is really this whole aspect that some people think, like this podcast, for example, they think it's only for those that are grieving.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting to me because I I was talking to a gentleman um uh up in uh New York last year last week, I'm sorry, that just recently lost his uh son like two weeks before.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Greg, um, if you only know how many books I have on my bookshelf that people have handed me in the last two weeks, um, as if that's gonna help me.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: He said, I had the last thing I want to do is read.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I felt like saying, Did you ask them if they read that book first?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because there's just so much out there that people don't know how to handle it, especially we've talked about this in American society, um, where grief is just not really something that we know how to handle.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: We had a gentleman on recently from Rwanda in the African culture, handles it differently.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, more uh inclusive, more involved uh type thing.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: We like to just say quippy quotes in handouts, books, and give them a But there's this real education about everybody out there where I want everybody to start listening to this podcast, not just those affected, because eventually all of us are going to be affected by someone that passes away.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And to be able to know how to talk to them, how to come alongside them.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a question in there, but Don, what do you would do you agree with that?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're we're and and grief is not just about loss of life, uh, but we're always uh gonna experience grief in so many different uh uh textures and and aspects of life.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, losing a job.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we we've had a podcast episode where we talked about the different uh types of grief, but it the way it affects people um it's truly up to each individual.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we have choices in how we deal with this.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and we also had an episode where we talked about the choices that we make, right?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it it's uh uh it's interesting that you uh bring that up, Greg.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um I just feel like you know we're all feeling the best we can.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it a lot depends on the choices that we are making that will either you know lead us on the right path um or lead us down uh another path that you know we can always change direction, like it's never too late.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: But um but yeah, that's my thoughts on that.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, John, I was thinking about when you were talking about the Montana men's retreat that you went to and how some people had said, Man, you know, I'll never forget what you had mentioned and what you said.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, what did I say?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, looking back on it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um as an occupation, I audit financial advisors uh for a living.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: So my job is to observe and report.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not to fix them, it's not to, you know, try to make sure that, you know, they're on the straight and narrow all to observe and report.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And there's other people that fix them.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: But um I feel like that's kind of our job as as mentors uh in life, as those that are companioning, those that are coming alongside others, is just kind of to observe what we have witnessed out there and to kind of report that.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean that they're gonna experience that, it doesn't mean that they're gonna go down this certain path.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's different for everybody.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, the whole aspect of having that weight lifted from your shoulders, that you don't have to fix that person.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: You could just create space for them to talk.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, John, you've shared a lot already about the growth aspect.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's kind of merge into that uh vein a little more.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like, not just in your life, but what you have experienced working with a lot of people uh in the grief field um with growth?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've heard about post-traumatic growth.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we've seen growth through putting the work in uh and things like that.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: But what what does that look like?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: One word, vulnerability.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um so for me, my experience has been when I am with someone who is grieving in particular, my show of vulnerability means a lot to him.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I had a father send me once, okay, John, um, thank you for calling.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but before I tell you anything about me, what's your story?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: If I wasn't able to share my story with him, he would have never opened up, and we found out that we had so many things in common, and our sons did as well.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so being able to be vulnerable to the person you're supporting is important because that demonstrates to them that it's okay to be vulnerable, especially for men.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're the ones who you know wear the armor and never shed a tear and always strong and taking care of everybody else.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: But being able to take that armor off and be vulnerable is extremely important, not only for you as a grieving person, but also to demonstrate to others it's okay to not be okay, right?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: And to show demonstrate to them that they're not alone.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um that was one of the things that I was experiencing.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like no one around me or my family lost a son due to suicide uh that could relate to me at that time.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I felt alone.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: I he he talked about Don being on an island.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was on an island, and so coming together with others with that similar loss of you know showed me, you know, it lifted the veil for me to see that I'm not alone.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of people out here who are suffering from and from grief, and it's okay that I don't have it all together.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we put that mask on when we leave the house that everything's okay when it really isn't, and I was able to take the mask and the armor off and be vulnerable, and that made a huge difference.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that vulnerability is extremely important and that would just agree with a lot of things, you know, opening up, having those open, honest conversations about how you feel, it's so important to get through whatever it is you're dealing with.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now, not everybody's open to hearing what you have to say, but at least they know how you feel.
• 28:20
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the first time I attended a men's retreat, and I was actually afraid to go to a men's retreat.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um the first time I went.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and the reason I was afraid was because I thought everyone would think I was a wimp, you know.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I had been at parents' retreats and I felt safer there for whatever reason, I don't know, but um, but at men's it was tough.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I I go there and I see this this man who was a veteran, and he stood up and starts talking about his son and just starts balling.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at him and I thought, wow, first off, I truly appreciated his vulnerability and you know his authentic showing his authentic self.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also thought about the courage that it took for him to come to come to the retreat and to stand up and speak and just let his emotions show, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: It gave me permission.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: It gave me the permission to, you know, oh, well, if he can do that, I can do it too.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the same thing happened when I attended um my very first uh Suicide Survivor conference, and Kimaraka was standing up on the stage telling her story.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought she's giving me hope that I can get through this.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because if she did it, that means I can do it.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like, you know, hopefully I'm I hope this podcast does the same thing for our listeners.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because John's right, man.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we have been in the muck.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not easy.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Greg said this too.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's you know, it's not an easy journey.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not, you know, here we are, you know, many years later talking about it, and it's easy for us to talk about, but we were in that that muck for you know several years.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it and it took time, it took work.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we gotta put the work in.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not gonna happen overnight.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: But uh when people say time heals, I I do believe there's some truth to that, but it's not time by itself.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta do the work.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Only through time can you heal, but not by time healing in and of itself.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's when you talk about vulnerability, authenticity goes right along that with a synonym in so many ways.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think back, John, on uh even that Austin parents retreat.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember we were in a big group and the guys weren't really opening up, weren't crying, weren't really talking or sharing.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then we went off in a side conference room, and I remember a bunch of us balled like babies, including myself.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really creating that space.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: And like you just said, Don, giving that permission that it is okay, we all grieve differently, but when you're amongst other men, there is this whole wall that comes up where it's like, well, I want to be macho, I don't want to be, you know, a wuss, I don't want to, whatever.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and with that, the the inverse of that is I am very authentic and vulnerable, but at the same time, I'm very reserved because I feel like I carry this pearl of great price called grief of my son that I don't just share with anybody.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't blast it out there.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I and I was doing that the first year, and then I realized, man, they don't care, they don't want to hear, or their their uh mannerisms at least spoke that.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'm very careful who I share that with uh in cautious because I don't want to have my heart stomped on and I don't want to just throw it out there for anybody.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very uh valuable uh to me with that.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: John, how about it?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: So Don mentioned how he felt safer with the parents than uh the men's, and I'm waiting to circle back to that because you kind of Greg led into that, and that is when you're with your spouse at a parent's retreat, uh most times the the woman uh is more emotional and does most of the talking, so you don't have to sit there and talk, you're not really forced to, so you gotta like a protection there.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so when you go to a men's retreat for the first time or a men's session for the first time, you don't have that protection there anymore.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: And like Don said, you don't know what to spec, you don't want to be the wimpy one in the room, not realizing that there's a brotherhood that happens in that space.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're allowed to be vulnerable, you're not judged, you're supported.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Time after time, I've seen men come into the retreats that I led with their arms folded saying, I'm only here because my wife came, I'm not gonna screw anything, you know, I'm I don't really need to be here.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And they have the biggest breakthroughs emotionally.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're the ones that have the biggest breakthrough, and that always warns my heart when most folks came in.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they have the breakthroughs, biggest ones, because they need it the most.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: They're the ones that are wearing that mask every day, telling everybody you're okay, and they're dying inside.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important for that space, like you said, to be creative for them to realize you're not the only one going through this.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I got the same story as this guy, and I thought my life was terrible.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: This guy's going through a lot worse than I am.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Or I'm I am the worst guy in the world, and I got support.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, good point.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as we wrap up, I'm just and you've given us lots of pearls of wisdom uh already, uh, but I'm just wondering if there's one that you would like to leave our listeners with.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um anything at all.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was thinking about this before you know we got on, um, and that is when you're going to degree you have to realize that you may need help to get you through it.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that help may not be your spouse or your sibling or somebody in your family.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: It may be a friend, somebody you haven't met yet.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it may be professional counseling or therapy.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um you have to find your way to that person or organization that's going to help you uh move forward that you can connect with.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it doesn't mean your friends and family don't care about you, but they may not be equipped to help you.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Don't give up looking and searching and researching to find your way forward because 99.9% of the way the time there's a way forward.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be challenges, setbacks, but getting up every day, putting one foot in front of the other is what you need to do to get through this.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and keep moving forward.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: So keep moving forward, keep looking for those connections that um understand where you're at and can meet you where you're at.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you're meeting somebody who uh is not where you are or has been where you are, then that's probably going to be able to help you.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that's good.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll tell you, in summation, you know, um, we speak from experience, folks.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we don't have it all figured out.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're just speaking from experience because we've walked this road.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I get asked all the time by dads, especially, you know, how can you talk about your son without breaking down and crying?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because we've had those dark moments of sucking carpet fibers, laying on the floor, weeping our eyes out.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's because we've gone to therapy, it's because we've gone to peer support groups and put the work in.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not like we're anything special above anybody else.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we speak from experience uh of what works and what has allowed us to get up and put one more foot in front of the other uh the next day and to hope have a hope uh for the future and uh and to actually turn that grief into gross.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, John, Don and I can't thank you enough uh for joining us uh today.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're a good friend and uh we really appreciate it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: So until next time.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: One more thing.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um for those folks listening, we may be many years down the road, but we still have those moments that can take us back to any time where we lost our person and we had those breakdowns.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just because you don't see it doesn't mean they're not happening.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: So they they don't go away.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there are certain times when a song or a picture or memory comes up and it hits you right in your chest.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we're not supermen, superwomen.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: We still have those feelings that come up that take us to our knees.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a good nugget of wisdom to end on.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, John.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time.