Latest / Karl and Crew / Fighting the Roommate Temptation in Marriage with Dan Seaborn & Speaking Truth with Compassion Without Enabling Harm with Abdu Murray

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Fighting the Roommate Temptation in Marriage with Dan Seaborn & Speaking Truth with Compassion Without Enabling Harm with Abdu Murray · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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  S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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  S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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  S1: the truth daily.
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  S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available.
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  S2: And you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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  S2: that would make it worth it.
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  S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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  S3: the life source, which is God.
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  S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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  S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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  S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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  S1: and crew.
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  S3: Yeah. Travel in the New York or something for a
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  S3: Cubs game. Hopefully something like that.
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  S5: Got rained out last night.
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  S3: I know that's the second day in a row it
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  S3: got rained out. We haven't had baseball. When you're in
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  S3: the summer, you need baseball because it's like the only
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  S3: sport right now. The World Cup is going. So that's nice,
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  S3: but it's not like America plays every day.
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  S6: USA. USA.
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  S5: We're playing turkey on Thursday.
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  S3: Yeah. And that game doesn't actually really count.
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  S5: Doesn't mean anything.
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  S3: Because we're already locked into first place in our, you know,
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  S3: little group stage.
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  S5: So we're already on the bench. Let him get his
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  S5: calf all healed up. Yeah. Is he hurt? Yeah. He
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  S5: didn't play in the second game.
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  S3: Oh wow. And we still, you know won pretty decisively.
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  S5: We've got I don't know a lot about soccer. I
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  S5: mean I get the basics, but I'm starting to learn strategy.
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  S5: I don't watch well, I watch the USA. That's all I.
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  S3: Watch. Sure.
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  S5: So it's but it's a phenomenal sport. I just love.
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  S3: It. Excellent.
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  S5: I love it, by the way, if we've got a
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  S5: soccer expert listening right now and I mean, you really
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  S5: know your stuff. You're a coach. You've been in it
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  S5: for a lot of years. I want you to call
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  S5: in and give our boom crew the analysis of whether
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  S5: or not you think the USA can keep moving. You know,
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  S5: I'm not. I'm not saying can we win it even
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  S5: though some are saying it could happen. I know it's
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  S5: a long shot.
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  S3: It's a it's always a long shot. There's a lot
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  S3: of teams out there, you know, who's, uh, who's confirmed
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  S3: really well known up about soccer is our phone screener, Leo. Uh,
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  S3: it's his favorite sport. And yesterday he was lamenting to
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  S3: me that he made it through two days of not
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  S3: seeing any games, which means he watches all of the games,
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  S3: no matter the country.
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  S5: Well, get Leo in here.
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  S3: Leo! Come here.
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  S5: Leo! Get him on air.
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  S3: Okay. Hold on. I'll get Ahold of him.
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  S5: Well, let me you get Ahold of him. I'm gonna
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  S5: tell the boom crew what's going on here. So if
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  S5: you missed the first two hours. Abdu Murray, Dan Seaborn two. Whoa.
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  S5: Great interviews. And what we're dealing with this week is
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  S5: overcoming temptation in any given area of expertise. So we
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  S5: are what we're offering up to you is looking at
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  S5: all these areas of expertise going, all right, what's the
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  S5: temptation around it? And how do we get around that
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  S5: temptation so that we don't get sucked away from exercising
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  S5: those areas of discipline in our life? So text the
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  S5: word show to 805 557898, text show to 805 557898
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  S5: and we'll get that resource off to you. We got
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  S5: Leo in the house here. Leo, thanks for coming on. Mike.
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  S5: You hadn't planned on this one, had you, man?
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  S7: Not at all.
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  S5: Hey. All right, so what's going on with USA soccer,
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  S5: or do we have a good club?
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  S7: I would say we definitely have a good team. It's solid.
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  S7: I love the strategy. Uh, we put a lot of pressure.
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  S7: Everyone goes up and as soon as we lose the ball,
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  S7: we put immense pressure on the team, which, uh, makes
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  S7: him lose the ball really fast and we gain it,
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  S7: and then there's just ready to attack.
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  S5: Yeah, it's it's interesting. Some teams hold back. I was amazed.
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  S5: I didn't know this, but like the team that we beat, Australia,
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  S5: they don't have a lot of ball possession time. Their
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  S5: whole angle is they wait for you to attack, get
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  S5: a cough up and then they go the length of
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  S5: the field and and score. That's that's their hope. But America,
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  S5: we're on the attack a lot, aren't we?
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  S7: Yes, yes. The main idea is just putting immense pressure.
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  S3: And is it like an energy conservation thing that people
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  S3: wouldn't do that? Or are they just trying to, like,
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  S3: save energy for the whole 90 minutes?
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  S7: Some people do that, um, for saving energy, but also it's,
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  S7: it's just to play it safe, okay.
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  S3: To play, to not have a big mistake. Yes. Okay.
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  S5: And well, it's unnerving when you go on the attack
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  S5: and if you lose the ball, the problem with the
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  S5: attack is that sometimes you, you get you get a
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  S5: guy going the whole field. Right. And that can be
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  S5: the danger in that.
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  S7: Yeah. Like the US, They they're risking it a lot.
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  S7: If they win against a high team and they lose
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  S7: the ball and the ball and the team has great passes.
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  S7: It's a it's a big risk.
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  S5: Especially against a guy like Messi who will mess you up.
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  S5: This guy scored five goals in the last two games guys.
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  S3: That's insane. And he's 38.
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  S5: He's got the most World Cup goals of anyone. He's
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  S5: got 18. Yeah man. Uh, what do you think? Can, uh,
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  S5: can America go deep? Leo, by the way, thanks for
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  S5: popping in here. Poor guy hadn't planned on coming on here,
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  S5: but can we go deep in this thing? You know,
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  S5: the turkey's kind of a that's kind of a. That
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  S5: doesn't count for anything, does it? That game with Turkey
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  S5: or does it?
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  S7: It technically does not. We end up in first place
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  S7: no matter what, which is great because that means we
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  S7: go against a team in second place or third place
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  S7: in a whole different group. Uh, but I am confident
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  S7: that we can make it up to the semi-finals.
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  S3: Okay. Semi-Finals. How many teams is. Uh, that's. I guess
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  S3: that's 14.
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  S5: 16 or 8.
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  S3: Semi-Finals is four teams left right.
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  S5: Semi-Finals is four teams.
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  S3: Yeah. Because. Yeah. Oh you're saying we can make it
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  S3: to the Final Four at least. Yes. That's good.
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  S5: That's beautiful Leo. Yeah. I heard that the way this
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  S5: this grouping may drop. We may get two teams that
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  S5: we can handle right.
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  S3: Once we get into it.
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  S7: Yeah, I'm really excited. We might go against Mexico. There's
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  S7: a big chance of going against Mexico.
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  S5: Well, why would you be excited about that?
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  S3: I thought you liked Mexico as well.
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  S7: I'm, uh, I would say I'm really patriotic for the US.
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  S7: But you were born where? I was born in the US.
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  S7: In Arizona? Yes.
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  S5: In Arizona. Okay. And who do you who do you
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  S5: pull for other than the US? Do you pull for Mexico?
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  S7: I pull for Mexico as well.
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  S5: Okay.
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  S7: It's just a big rivalry. It's, uh.
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  S3: Oh, okay.
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  S7: Exciting games.
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  S5: Oh, though that would be a crazy game.
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  S3: That would be a good game.
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  S5: Because you know what everybody wants to knock off USA. USA.
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  S5: Australia wanted us bad. They really wanted us. Leo. They
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  S5: wanted us.
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  S3: But we weren't close.
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  S5: We took him down. Leo. Yeah, we took him down. Hey, Leo.
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  S5: Thanks for coming on air, man. Um, have you played
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  S5: a little bit of soccer yourself or football?
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  S7: Yes, I played, uh, throughout high school and a little semi-professional.
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  S5: You did?
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  S7: Yes.
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  S3: I didn't know that.
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  S5: Come on, we need to get a video of his
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  S5: footwork and put it up on air.
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  S3: That'd be fun.
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  S5: This is the guy that answers your calls.
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  S3: I don't have a.
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  S5: Ball in.
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  S3: Here, but.
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  S5: That's great. Leo. Thanks for ducking in here, man. That's Leo,
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  S5: good heart. Dude, man. He loves the Lord with his
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  S5: whole heart. It's one of the coolest things, isn't it? Jonathan.
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  S3: Oh, yeah. It's the best. I love Leo. Genuine guy. Great,
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  S3: great guy to talk to and a lot of fun.
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  S3: As you can see, he's got great football knowledge, football knowledge.
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  S5: Football. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Okay. Um, boy, we're tackling
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  S5: temptation here this whole week, guys. Let me give you
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  S5: a quick shot. Really important thing. Yesterday we talked about
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  S5: truth as the weapon against temptation. And we know that's true.
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  S5: It's the only offensive weapon of war. And I'm not
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  S5: going to go into the full explanation of Hagar, the
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  S5: Hebrew word for meditate, nor rhema, the Greek word that's
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  S5: used 70 times in the New Testament. Suffice it to say,
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  S5: if you didn't get the truth belonged yesterday, get it today.
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  S5: Because getting armed with truth is the only offensive weapon
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  S5: of war we have for temptation. And I want you
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  S5: to get this. I think it will encourage you massively.
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  S5: Just text the word truth to 805 5578981 word truth
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  S5: to 800 555, 78, 98. So it's an interesting thing
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  S5: because we find here in Hebrews four about Jesus himself
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  S5: and he. And the whole context of Hebrews four is
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  S5: about entering the rest. Now, Israel got that because it's like, man,
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  S5: let's get away from Pharaoh. Let's get away from all
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  S5: the enemies. And even in the writer of Hebrews says,
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  S5: even Joshua couldn't enter us into rest, which makes sense
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  S5: because it is not a destination. It's a spiritual location.
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  S5: It's a place at which your heart is rest no
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  S5: matter what your circumstances. But then it goes on to say,
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  S5: and I love this in verse 14 about entering this rest.
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  S5: Since then, we have this great high priest who has
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  S5: passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let
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  S5: us hold fast our confession, for we do not have
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  S5: a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. Wow!
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  S5: But one who in every respect has been tempted As
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  S5: we are, yet without sin. Okay, it doesn't stop there.
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  S5: There's another verse. Let us then, with confidence, draw near
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  S5: to the throne of grace. We have Greg Dempster on
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  S5: here talking about this verse. He calls it the throne of.
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  S5: He will he will do it for you. And that's
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  S5: exactly what it is. Let us draw near to the
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  S5: throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find
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  S5: grace to help in the time, in our time of need.
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  S5: Here's the point. When you find yourself tempted, get armed
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  S5: with the offensive weapon of war, which is the Word
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  S5: of God, and draw near to the throne room of.
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  S5: I will do it for you. Some of you have
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  S5: been trying to fight temptation in your own strength, and
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  S5: it's time to turn this thing around today. And you
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  S5: might ask, well, Carl, how do I draw near to
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  S5: the throne of grace? I will say this the greatest
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  S5: way to do this is in quiet. You can't do
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  S5: it on the fly. The throne room of Grace is
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  S5: entered and it might be busy all around you. But
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  S5: quiet your heart. Get to a quiet place and say, Jesus,
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  S5: you were tempted in every way, but you not only
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  S5: died for me, you filled me with your grace. And
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  S5: your grace is available today, not just for saving me.
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  S5: Titus 211 and 12, but for training me to renounce
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  S5: ungodliness and worldly passions. See how grace comes together there.
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  S5: Titus 211 and 12 and Hebrews four. And so God, I,
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  S5: I need your power because I can't overcome this temptation today.
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  S5: And when you do that, and when you're armed with
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  S5: the truth of God's Word, that's a lethal combination to
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  S5: deal a blow to Satan today. So draw near to
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  S5: the throne of. He will do it for you.
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  S3: It's exciting. He was tempted in every way, yet didn't sin.
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  S3: That's a good power to tap into if you're struggling
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  S3: with temptation.
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  S5: Yeah. So. So draw near to this throne room of
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  S5: I will do it for you.
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  S3: Yes. How awesome to be today.
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  S5: Hang on guys.
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  S1: It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
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  S5: In the history of our world, you can look through
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  S5: the pages of Scripture. My goodness. You can. You can
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  S5: look at recent history. You can look at some of
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  S5: the things that have happened on our soil. And you
• 12:21
  S5: can find who some really ugly situations in this world.
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  S5: I'm talking about regimes that are so oppressive, it's hard
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  S5: to get your mind around it. With me right now
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  S5: is Lana Silk. Lana is a great woman of God,
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  S5: and she has a heart as big as a bucket
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  S5: for her people of Iran. And Lana, I think I
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  S5: want to begin with a little ear warning here today,
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  S5: because I want to go and really catch up what's
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  S5: going on kind of in the life of Iranian people
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  S5: and what they're up against. So little ear warning now.
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  S5: Boom crew. We're going to get really vulnerable. We aren't
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  S5: going to get crazy here, but we're going to get
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  S5: vulnerable about what's going on. Lana first. Good to have
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  S5: you with me this morning. And, um, we'll get into
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  S5: current day, but let's just look at the political religious
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  S5: landscape of Iran. How how tough is it not just
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  S5: for believers, but for everyone?
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  S8: Good morning Carl. Yes, it is really, really tough in Iran.
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  S8: It's it's a violence. You know, if you do anything
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  S8: that might irk or, uh, anger any kind of Iranian
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  S8: government official or police or the Basij, the militia, then
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  S8: you can't be sure how they'll react. They might arrest you.
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  S8: They might beat you up. They might just kill you
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  S8: right there on the street. Uh, just a couple of
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  S8: weeks ago, we had one of our pastors, Um, a
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  S8: husband and wife team driving just through a regular street.
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  S8: A couple of passengers in the car with them. Police
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  S8: stopped the car and asked the woman to hand over
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  S8: her phone. She's a church pastor, and she had information
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  S8: on her phone that would really put her life at risk.
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  S8: And she asked just innocently like, why? You know, why
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  S8: do you need my phone? Have I violated any traffic laws?
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  S8: You know what's happened here? And he didn't even answer
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  S8: a question. He hit her so hard in the face
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  S8: that he broke her jaw and all her teeth.
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  S9: Good gracious.
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  S8: So that's the kind of situation that people are living in.
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  S5: Oh, Lana. Um, it's something that was very disturbing. That's
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  S5: why we put a little ear warning here. You know,
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  S5: the sha. I mean, he wasn't a man of nobility.
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  S5: This guy was skimming off the the the reserves, the
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  S5: monies of Iranians for years, getting Uber wealthy. I mean,
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  S5: the Shah of Iran was not a noble man. But
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  S5: when you look at what took over after he was deposed.
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  S5: One of the things that I think a lot of
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  S5: people no need to know is the marrying age under
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  S5: the Shah was 18 years old, pretty Western that way,
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  S5: and the Western society was there. Women had freedom to
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  S5: dress as they like, but boy, things have changed. Explain
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  S5: what's going on in marriage and even some of the
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  S5: sexual abuse of very young girls.
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  S8: Yes, the legal age for marriage has dropped. It's 12
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  S8: for girls and 15 for boys. This is marriage without
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  S8: parental consent. If you have your parental consent. It's extremely fluid.
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  S8: It kind of depends on what the officials are going
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  S8: to do in that situation. I have seen photographs of
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  S8: girls as young as five years old, standing with dolls
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  S8: in their hands with wedding dresses on, you know, ready
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  S8: for a life of abuse. Really, there's no other way
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  S8: to put it. And we discussed last time about this
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  S8: law of temporary marriage in Iran that exists where they
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  S8: can take a female of any age and take, uh,
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  S8: this child baby to the local Muslim clerics and the
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  S8: leaders of their local mosques and have a marriage, temporary marriage, blessed.
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  S8: It's called a Sierra. And that temporary marriage could be
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  S8: anything from hours to days or weeks. And of course,
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  S8: that's basically just legalizing rape. And now we have a
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  S8: whole generation of children that have been born out of
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  S8: these quote unquote marriages. They're called Sierra Nevadas. So, you know,
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  S8: child of a temporary marriage. And they're not wanted. They're not.
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  S8: They can't be legally registered. They have no, they have
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  S8: absolutely no life or future. And most of them end
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  S8: up as street children, uh, just begging for existence. And
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  S8: then these children are then vulnerable to organ harvesting, multiple
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  S8: cases of children just showing up, bodies showing up in
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  S8: deserts with their organs removed, or children just waking up
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  S8: in on the streets, in the cities with searing pain
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  S8: down their side. And they've been drugged and their organs
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  S8: have been removed, and they wake up to that. So
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  S8: it's it's horrific. Karl. It really is.
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  S5: Lana. I didn't know some of these things. You know,
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  S5: this is not just Christian persecution. Then this whole nation
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  S5: is under this oppression right now.
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  S8: Oh, absolutely. The entire country. I mean, it really wouldn't
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  S8: be fair to make it just about Christians. Of course,
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  S8: as Christians we have additional complications because the faith is
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  S8: illegal and the Christians are persecuted for their faith. But
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  S8: people are persecuted for any kind of behavior that would
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  S8: violate what is constituted Sharia law and and as well
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  S8: as Sharia law. A acceptance and allegiance to the Islamic
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  S8: regime of Iran. A lot of people who were arrested
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  S8: through January were arrested under the guise of threat to
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  S8: national security and tortured and abused and raped. And some
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  S8: were killed and others released with incredible trauma, some begging
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  S8: for death on surgeons beds after what they'd endured. Others
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  S8: turning to drugs. And it is a nation that is traumatized.
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  S8: It really is.
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  S5: Okay. Um. It makes the pursuit of freeing up oil
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  S5: in the Hermosa Strait, Strait of Hormuz and, uh, even
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  S5: getting nuclear dust. That's just part of the story. And I,
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  S5: I know that we had told the Iranian people help
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  S5: is on the way. I'm not sure this is done yet.
• 18:15
  S5: Some of this some of this strategy, it appears, looks
• 18:19
  S5: to be centered around midterm elections, if you know what
• 18:23
  S5: I mean. But yeah, I mean, some of this stuff
• 18:26
  S5: is just crazy. You know what I mean? It's like, wow,
• 18:29
  S5: we can't we can't afford to we can't afford to
• 18:32
  S5: lose midterm elections. So we're going to kind of loosen
• 18:34
  S5: things up here. A little bit of our pressure on Iran.
• 18:37
  S5: This is a dicey situation. How are you praying? I mean,
• 18:42
  S5: you're intimately involved in knowledgeable of what's going on in Iran.
• 18:45
  S5: How do you get up and pray in the morning?
• 18:47
  S5: How do you pray, Lana?
• 18:49
  S10: Uh, Carl, that's a great question.
• 18:51
  S8: I often have to ask the Lord to guide me
• 18:54
  S8: in how to pray and to get my focus back
• 18:56
  S8: on him and all the things I know about him.
• 18:58
  S8: You know, his love, his power, his victory, um, his plans,
• 19:03
  S8: his good purposes. Because, you know, on earthly terms, it
• 19:06
  S8: is a very hopeless situation. You know, I was speaking
• 19:09
  S8: to one of our pastors just yesterday and she was
• 19:12
  S8: saying there's just a heaviness in the spirit of people
• 19:15
  S8: in the country, people. They're upset, they're tired, they're discouraged.
• 19:18
  S8: And these, as believers, are the emotions that we need
• 19:21
  S8: to battle against. And we read it through the Psalms
• 19:23
  S8: over and over again. When the psalmist is feeling these
• 19:26
  S8: exact emotions and he's speaking to himself, reminding himself that
• 19:29
  S8: God is still in charge, that God is good, reminding
• 19:31
  S8: himself that God is what God has already done. And really,
• 19:34
  S8: that's how we pray as a church, reminding ourselves of
• 19:36
  S8: God's plans and purposes for us, what he has already
• 19:39
  S8: done in our lives, and choosing to continue to believe
• 19:43
  S8: that he. That he will act. And Iran's future is good.
• 19:47
  S5: Yeah, I love your faith and we're believing with you. I,
• 19:52
  S5: I am praying my bride and I pray God overthrow
• 19:56
  S5: that regime. Please bring in someone that's going to loosen
• 19:59
  S5: the chains of these people. And we don't even need
• 20:03
  S5: a Christ follower. My goodness, just someone with a little
• 20:07
  S5: bit of common sense and sanity and a, just a
• 20:10
  S5: a scant bit of being an image bearer of God,
• 20:13
  S5: where the glory of God just shines through a crack
• 20:17
  S5: to release the hold on the beautiful people of Iran. Boom! Crew,
• 20:21
  S5: I want you to hear me. Lana has got a
• 20:23
  S5: team of people, an exceptional team of people around the world, actually,
• 20:28
  S5: who are doing everything they can to assist followers of Jesus.
• 20:33
  S5: And I want you to at least check out this website.
• 20:36
  S5: If the spirit of God's calling you to. There's prayer guides,
• 20:39
  S5: everything you need right there. And, um, boy, they'd be
• 20:42
  S5: grateful for your participation at any level. If you text
• 20:46
  S5: the word transform to 805, five, five, 78, 98, that
• 20:51
  S5: would be a great resource to grab transform to. 800 555, 78, 98.
• 21:01
  S1: Your spiritual pit stop to keep you going in the race.
• 21:05
  S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
• 21:07
  S5: Well, here we are day two of Temptation week. And
• 21:11
  S5: here's what we're dealing with. I'm bringing on guests and
• 21:16
  S5: we're having him tackle topics that are very relevant to
• 21:20
  S5: our day to day living, not least of which is
• 21:22
  S5: marriage and family. My goodness. And Dan Seaborn has just
• 21:27
  S5: been a phenomenal resource here for you. Boom crew and hundreds,
• 21:32
  S5: if not thousands of you have already tapped into his website.
• 21:35
  S5: We're going to have a link for that coming up here,
• 21:37
  S5: but I want to build some context around this. Dan
• 21:40
  S5: founded Winning at Home. It's an organization that produces media resources.
• 21:46
  S5: They host special events, and their goal is to encourage
• 21:49
  S5: marriages and families to really get victory over darkness. Because
• 21:53
  S5: we live in a real battle zone here, especially around temptation.
• 21:58
  S5: So I want to jump in the deep end with
• 22:00
  S5: you here, Dan. Thanks for being with us. Uh, the
• 22:03
  S5: temptation to live as glorified roommates is real and glorified roommates.
• 22:11
  S5: Way I contextualize it is that we share bank accounts,
• 22:18
  S5: occasional sex, and maybe even vacations a couple times a year.
• 22:23
  S5: But man, that pop and sizzle and joy. We've we've
• 22:28
  S5: stopped fighting, maybe even in marriage, but we don't have
• 22:32
  S5: that intimacy. What is the temptation that pulls us away
• 22:36
  S5: from fighting for marriage In a way that's really going
• 22:41
  S5: to honor God.
• 22:42
  S11: Dan well, I think what's happened for many people in
• 22:45
  S11: that circumstance is you're describing is when you try, when
• 22:50
  S11: you do fight, when you do go to battle a
• 22:52
  S11: little bit and you end up what you feel like
• 22:55
  S11: is in a darker place after the conversation. In other words,
• 22:58
  S11: there's not a willingness, there's not an openness. There's not
• 23:00
  S11: a gift of being willing to allow your spouse just
• 23:03
  S11: to share what they're struggling with or working through. Instead,
• 23:07
  S11: it feels like you're not good enough. And so you
• 23:10
  S11: attack back. And after a few times of trying, it's
• 23:13
  S11: pretty common for us just to give up. So for me,
• 23:16
  S11: it's more of an understanding that, okay, if we can
• 23:19
  S11: normalize this and help everybody see that we all live
• 23:22
  S11: in this spot, we all face temptations, we all face
• 23:24
  S11: temptations to walk away from our marriages. It's common. I mean,
• 23:27
  S11: the Bible very clearly says this is common to man
• 23:31
  S11: and to woman. And so I think when we normalize
• 23:34
  S11: it and just say, oh, you're struggling with that too. Great. Well,
• 23:37
  S11: here's a couple of tips and a couple of pops
• 23:39
  S11: that might help you to refreshing things in your relationship.
• 23:42
  S5: Yeah, I would venture to say right now in our
• 23:44
  S5: listening audience, there are tens of thousands of people that
• 23:47
  S5: have heard the temptation of Satan whispering something like this.
• 23:52
  S5: You've tried before. You're never going to have him or
• 23:55
  S5: her understand what your need is here. So just grin
• 23:58
  S5: and bear it until you get to glory. How in
• 24:01
  S5: the world do you fight that temptation, number one? But
• 24:04
  S5: what's a path forward? Number two?
• 24:06
  S11: Well, number one, I would say if you're feeling that today, uh,
• 24:10
  S11: without going into crazy, lots of details, just make sure
• 24:14
  S11: your number one communicated to your spouse. So many spouses
• 24:17
  S11: are unaware that their spouse is feeling that or going
• 24:20
  S11: through that. And I say to couples all the time,
• 24:23
  S11: in fact, I'll just give you my personal illustration. I
• 24:25
  S11: will sometimes look at Jane and say, hey, babe, I'm
• 24:28
  S11: not really needing to discuss this a lot, but I
• 24:30
  S11: need to make you aware of something I'm really struggling with,
• 24:33
  S11: and I'll name the thing that I'm struggling with. I say,
• 24:35
  S11: because if I don't make you aware of it, it's
• 24:37
  S11: really not fair that I'm frustrated with you, that you're
• 24:40
  S11: not helping me with it, because the only way you
• 24:42
  S11: can help me with it is if you know about it.
• 24:44
  S11: So I think number one is just having a good conversation.
• 24:47
  S11: And then if you're the kind of couple that can't
• 24:49
  S11: have those conversations without getting elevated or your track record
• 24:53
  S11: is we go into a big war zone, then go
• 24:56
  S11: meet with a pastor, go meet with a counselor. Don't
• 24:58
  S11: be afraid to pull a third party in because you
• 25:00
  S11: nailed it. You nailed it, Carl. I believe the average listener.
• 25:04
  S11: I'm going to go way out on a limb. The
• 25:06
  S11: average listener right now listening to us is struggling with
• 25:09
  S11: an element of this and simply don't want to admit it,
• 25:12
  S11: because then it looks like you're not perfect, and maybe
• 25:15
  S11: we should just pull the shroud off of that thing
• 25:17
  S11: and we'll just tell you you're not perfect. So the
• 25:20
  S11: quicker you accept that and begin to deal with it,
• 25:22
  S11: the better for your marriage relationship.
• 25:23
  S5: You know, probably the wisest counsel that my bride ever received,
• 25:27
  S5: and we've benefited from it mightily, is to sit down
• 25:31
  S5: face to face and do this regularly where we share, oh,
• 25:37
  S5: this is what's on my heart. And the other person
• 25:40
  S5: listens and even rehearses back is what I'm hearing. You
• 25:44
  S5: know what? You made a passing comment. I want to
• 25:46
  S5: go back to something, though, before we even get into
• 25:48
  S5: this one. I think more often than not, we think
• 25:51
  S5: we've communicated well with someone when we when they really
• 25:55
  S5: haven't heard us, they might have heard some barking or
• 25:57
  S5: some snipping or some alluding to, but they've never really
• 26:00
  S5: heard our heart on the matter. Let's begin there. Right, Dan?
• 26:03
  S11: Oh for sure. That's true for me. Let me just
• 26:05
  S11: give you the personal illustration. So I would tell you,
• 26:08
  S11: up until about five years ago, anytime Jane tried to
• 26:12
  S11: share that type of stuff with me, I really wasn't listening.
• 26:15
  S11: I was preparing my response. I had my counterattack or
• 26:18
  S11: my counter response working on in my mind, etc. things
• 26:22
  S11: she's saying. And about five years ago, the Lord just
• 26:25
  S11: laid on my heart. You know, listen to her and
• 26:28
  S11: don't respond other than thanks for sharing. So actually hear
• 26:32
  S11: her words. And I would tell you once I opened
• 26:35
  S11: my heart to hearing her heart and hearing her words.
• 26:39
  S11: It really changed things in me. So for some of
• 26:41
  S11: you who are a bit defensive, that's your personality. You
• 26:45
  S11: tend to respond quickly. I would just encourage you the
• 26:47
  S11: next time your spouse is trying to say something to you.
• 26:50
  S11: I'll just give you a couple of quick words here.
• 26:52
  S11: ZIP it, zip it up, zip your mouth closed and
• 26:56
  S11: let them have a chance to talk and actually try
• 26:59
  S11: to hear what they're saying.
• 27:01
  S12: Oh.
• 27:02
  S5: So all right, so we're back at the little sit
• 27:06
  S5: down and we're listening. What do you do. Because and
• 27:10
  S5: this goes both ways. This is an equal opportunity employer
• 27:13
  S5: here it seems where the one spouse they don't want
• 27:18
  S5: to hear, they don't want to listen. And and it
• 27:22
  S5: sounds so empty to go cite Paul who says, oh,
• 27:25
  S5: if you got an unbelieving spouse, hang in there with them.
• 27:27
  S5: You might be, you know, you might turn them on
• 27:29
  S5: to Jesus. And it could be an unbelieving spouse, which
• 27:32
  S5: makes it really hard because they don't have the Spirit
• 27:35
  S5: of God inside them. So what do you do if
• 27:38
  S5: you feel like, man, every time I open my mouth,
• 27:41
  S5: let's just role play it. Every time I open my
• 27:43
  S5: mouth and I tell, let's go. We always go after guys.
• 27:47
  S5: Let's go after young ladies. I opened my mouth and
• 27:49
  S5: I say something to my wife. She's got a reason.
• 27:51
  S5: She's got an excuse. She doesn't want to hear it.
• 27:53
  S5: She starts crying as a defense mechanism. You know what
• 27:56
  S5: I'm saying, Dan? Where do you go from there?
• 27:59
  S11: Well, number one, um, I would take you to scripture
• 28:02
  S11: at this point that says in first Corinthians 1013, we
• 28:06
  S11: all know the passage. Probably many of us could recite it.
• 28:08
  S11: There's no temptation taken you, but such as is common
• 28:11
  S11: to man. So when you're in that spot, don't sit
• 28:13
  S11: there and go, oh, I'm the only one dealing with this.
• 28:16
  S11: You just don't listen. Don't go there. Don't go there.
• 28:19
  S11: Because the second part of the verse says he will
• 28:21
  S11: provide a way out. Now, it might not be the
• 28:25
  S11: way you're wanting because sitting there, you're going, the only
• 28:28
  S11: way out of this is for her to hear my point. No, no,
• 28:31
  S11: there is another option. It may not be the option
• 28:33
  S11: you want, won't. But I'm going to grow and deepen,
• 28:38
  S11: even if she chooses not to. And yep, this is uncomfortable.
• 28:42
  S11: I don't like it. I don't want to be in
• 28:44
  S11: this spot. But God, if you're wanting to teach me
• 28:47
  S11: something about humility here, if you're willing to grow me,
• 28:52
  S11: if you're wanting to humble me to a level so
• 28:54
  S11: that I understand something else, and you're using my actual
• 28:57
  S11: marriage to do it, um, today I'm willing to receive that.
• 29:01
  S11: And I'm not telling you that's easy. But for some
• 29:03
  S11: of you listening today, God's wanting to take you. Listen.
• 29:06
  S11: Listen carefully to a level your spouse isn't capable of.
• 29:10
  S11: Because the bottom line is, some of you are married
• 29:13
  S11: to a spouse who will never be capable of knowing
• 29:16
  S11: the depths of Jesus and His love that you're capable
• 29:19
  S11: of learning. And I don't want you to finish life
• 29:22
  S11: going well. I'm going to settle right here where my
• 29:24
  S11: spouse is. They don't want to go deeper. I'm not
• 29:25
  S11: going deeper. Mhm, mhm. You go deeper because God's using
• 29:30
  S11: you for some life lessons and things and influences that
• 29:33
  S11: you can't see. You have a temporary vision because you're
• 29:36
  S11: viewing your marriage is the most important thing in the Bible.
• 29:39
  S11: Scripture never says that marriage is something that refines us,
• 29:42
  S11: defines us, helps us grow in our relationship with Christ.
• 29:45
  S11: But it's not our identity. And in our culture, we
• 29:49
  S11: worship to marriage. We put it on a pedestal, get
• 29:52
  S11: that marriage off the pedestal, put Jesus on the pedestal
• 29:55
  S11: and say to him, if you need to humble me
• 29:58
  S11: to teach me something, even if it's painful, Lord, today
• 30:01
  S11: I'm going to do my best to receive it. That's
• 30:03
  S11: what the verse means when it says he will provide
• 30:06
  S11: a way out.
• 30:07
  S5: Man, I love it. Dan Seaborn, my guest. So since
• 30:09
  S5: we're going deep, let's go deeper here. Dan, it strikes
• 30:13
  S5: me that for some people, the wisest path forward is
• 30:17
  S5: let's let's just imagine I go to someone. They won't
• 30:20
  S5: listen to me, won't listen to me. The the temptation
• 30:24
  S5: is to say, well, then I'm not going to listen
• 30:26
  S5: to them. It could be that our willingness to listen
• 30:29
  S5: and apply what someone else says, and I'm not talking
• 30:33
  S5: about putting up with physical or emotional abuse. That's not
• 30:36
  S5: what I'm talking about here. But listening to what someone
• 30:40
  S5: else says could be a spiritual catalyst to kick start
• 30:45
  S5: our spouse, to listening to what we have to say.
• 30:47
  S5: Is that fair?
• 30:48
  S11: Absolutely. And I would tell you that as you begin
• 30:52
  S11: to deepen in God and you actually take some of
• 30:54
  S11: the pressure off your spouse that you're putting on them
• 30:56
  S11: through these conversations, when they honestly, when they see, whoa, whoa,
• 31:01
  S11: you're doing good. Wow. You've deepened. Whoa, you, you aren't
• 31:05
  S11: even the same person. There's something really attractive about that.
• 31:09
  S11: And they're actually going to want to know what that is.
• 31:12
  S11: And again, it may be they never get to your
• 31:14
  S11: level of depth, but you might be the trigger to
• 31:17
  S11: cause them to go to a next level of depth
• 31:20
  S11: in their own life and their own relationship with Christ.
• 31:23
  S11: So I just think we underestimate what the depth of
• 31:26
  S11: the Lord does in our lives. And again, let's remember
• 31:30
  S11: if we are having ideas and thoughts in our head
• 31:33
  S11: that go, well, you won me, I won you back
• 31:35
  S11: are you treat me that way. I'm going to treat
• 31:37
  S11: you this way. That's the world's response. That's the world's response.
• 31:40
  S11: So we should be going, okay, what would Jesus do
• 31:43
  S11: in this spot? Oh, he would he would be willing
• 31:46
  S11: to die here. He would be willing to surrender here. Mhm.
• 31:49
  S11: And I'm telling y'all, I don't like it either. I
• 31:52
  S11: would much rather I tell my wife all the time, hey, babe,
• 31:55
  S11: if we go to a court of law, I'm winning
• 31:57
  S11: this case. I'm just telling you, I'm winning this case. Okay?
• 32:01
  S11: What's the point? You win the case, who cares? You
• 32:04
  S11: didn't win as a couple. You actually lost in the
• 32:07
  S11: long run. So I think the big picture is what
• 32:09
  S11: we have to keep in mind.
• 32:10
  S5: You know, I think something has crept into Christian. I'm
• 32:15
  S5: using that in air quotes because it may not be
• 32:17
  S5: discipleship relationships, but Christian relationships. And we we are borrowing
• 32:26
  S5: the world's philosophy. And it's this meet me halfway, baby.
• 32:31
  S5: You know, you come out the 50 yard line, I'll
• 32:33
  S5: meet you. 50 yard line, center field in the middle
• 32:35
  S5: of the field. We'll have intimacy there. And I've said
• 32:38
  S5: this a time or two. We always overestimate how far
• 32:41
  S5: we've traveled and underestimate how far the other person's traveled.
• 32:44
  S5: How do we resist that temptation to have a 5050 relationship? Dan.
• 32:51
  S11: I think because we are wise enough as believers in
• 32:55
  S11: the Lord to step back and realize, okay, that's what
• 32:58
  S11: I want to do. But man, I'm sure glad Jesus
• 33:01
  S11: didn't put the 5050 on me for me to earn salvation,
• 33:05
  S11: you know? So when we get the right perspective, again,
• 33:08
  S11: it's surrender. But when we get the right perspective, we
• 33:11
  S11: realize it's with Jesus 100 to 0. And I I'm
• 33:16
  S11: supposed to do my best to emulate him. So I
• 33:18
  S11: gotta try to at least move my 50 to 51
• 33:21
  S11: so I can get going the right way.
• 33:23
  S5: I love it. Dan Seaborn, our guest, uh, I think
• 33:28
  S5: I've talked with you about this before. Final thought. The
• 33:31
  S5: fuel in the engine room for this stuff. You can't
• 33:35
  S5: do this on the fly. This is deep disciplines of
• 33:38
  S5: the heart, isn't it, Dan?
• 33:40
  S11: It is. It's time with the Lord. I know when
• 33:42
  S11: I'm when I'm burning out or not doing well. It's
• 33:45
  S11: probably most times because I'm thinking my way or I
• 33:50
  S11: am battling inside. What do I need to do to
• 33:52
  S11: get Jane to see this, etc. and it just it
• 33:55
  S11: confuses me. It confounds me, it gets me tired, it
• 33:57
  S11: creates chaos. And when I go and read the word,
• 34:01
  S11: there comes that peace. There comes that stuff that he
• 34:03
  S11: says he'll give us. It'll pass all understanding. So more
• 34:07
  S11: time with the word, more time with the Lord. And
• 34:09
  S11: you know, I work my life backwards sometimes, Karl. I'll go, okay,
• 34:14
  S11: when I'm 80 or 90, am I going to look
• 34:16
  S11: back and go, yeah, I'm really glad I fought all
• 34:18
  S11: these times. No, no, I'm going to be like, what's
• 34:21
  S11: wrong with you clowns? Slow down a little bit, man.
• 34:23
  S11: Get get your focus. Get focused in the right direction.
• 34:26
  S11: That helps me a lot. So getting perspective is a
• 34:29
  S11: big deal. But hey, I acknowledge there's plenty of you
• 34:32
  S11: listening today. You're incredibly frustrated in your marriage relationship. And
• 34:36
  S11: I'm just saying to you, okay, well, you can keep
• 34:38
  S11: battling on the way you're doing it and thinking you're
• 34:40
  S11: going to prove your point, but the quicker you yield
• 34:43
  S11: and surrender and grow in Christ, the better your marriage
• 34:46
  S11: is actually going to be beautiful.
• 34:49
  S5: I have never seen such a one stop shop for
• 34:53
  S5: marriage and family. And I mean this. Dan has brought
• 34:56
  S5: around him a cadre of phenomenal counselors, life coaches. And
• 35:02
  S5: this is not endless therapy. Look at your navel and
• 35:05
  S5: contemplate it for four years kind of counselors or coaches.
• 35:09
  S5: These are why on the road, this is what scripture says.
• 35:12
  S5: Let's see if we can walk this out and work
• 35:14
  S5: this out in our lives. You need some extra help.
• 35:17
  S5: You need someone to come in and give you a
• 35:20
  S5: little shot in the arm, shot in the soul. We
• 35:22
  S5: got it for you. Text the word winning. Winning to 28005557898.
• 35:30
  S5: No joking. Don't miss this opportunity right now. These are
• 35:35
  S5: some of the best freedom fighters he's got in this
• 35:38
  S5: great team of winning at home. Text the word winning
• 35:42
  S5: to 805 5578981 word winning 805 5578, 98.
• 35:51
  S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
• 35:54
  S1: This is Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 35:58
  S5: What? We're bringing in experts all week long and we're
• 36:01
  S5: asking the question, what is the temptation around this area
• 36:05
  S5: of expertise when you think about embracing the truth? We've
• 36:10
  S5: got one key man of God who has been an
• 36:13
  S5: incredible guest here, Abdu Murray. He's with me right now. Abdu.
• 36:18
  S5: It's so good to have you with us today. Uh,
• 36:21
  S5: I want to wade into this with a controversial statement.
• 36:24
  S5: There's this term out there, toxic empathy. And I think
• 36:28
  S5: to be fair with that characterization, I think it's the.
• 36:32
  S5: The proposition is that there's an empathy that almost becomes enabling.
• 36:38
  S5: So is that a correct definition of toxic empathy, as
• 36:42
  S5: you hear it bandied about out there?
• 36:45
  S13: Yeah. And I think that this is important because we
• 36:48
  S13: really need to understand the difference between toxic empathy and
• 36:52
  S13: this idea of empathy itself, because oftentimes it's we're being
• 36:56
  S13: accused of saying that empathy is itself toxic. No, this
• 37:00
  S13: is it's very important to understand that there's a form
• 37:02
  S13: of empathy which can be viewed as toxic, not only
• 37:05
  S13: to the empathizer, the one who's doing the empathy, the empathizing,
• 37:09
  S13: but to the person you're being empathetic towards because you're
• 37:13
  S13: just saying, I feel what you feel. And I'm affirming
• 37:16
  S13: in some sense that what you feel or that which
• 37:18
  S13: you are doing, and I'm not actually helping you. I
• 37:21
  S13: remember there was a video, an often maligned video that
• 37:25
  S13: was taken out of context of Charlie Kirk, for example,
• 37:27
  S13: where he said he hated this word empathy. And then
• 37:29
  S13: he cut it off like that. But the rest of
• 37:31
  S13: the video where he says, rather, I prefer the term compassion.
• 37:36
  S13: And what he says about compassion is that you feel
• 37:39
  S13: something with someone, but then you do something about their
• 37:42
  S13: predicament or their situation. And I thought that was great
• 37:46
  S13: because what that showed was the idea that empathy can
• 37:49
  S13: just be, I feel what you feel, and I'm going
• 37:51
  S13: to enable whatever you want to do. Rather, compassion is saying,
• 37:55
  S13: I understand you're in a predicament, but the best way
• 37:58
  S13: to do this is to say either a I should
• 38:00
  S13: affirm you because you're feeling something that should be helped
• 38:04
  S13: in some way that affirms what you're feeling. Or I
• 38:07
  S13: have the the true love for you to say, I
• 38:10
  S13: care about something that you care about, but you are
• 38:13
  S13: going about it the wrong way. And so my compassion
• 38:16
  S13: leads me to want to help you by saying you're
• 38:19
  S13: doing things wrong, or there's something you're not thinking, that's right.
• 38:22
  S13: And we need to we need to fix that because
• 38:24
  S13: otherwise you'll never actually break out of this cycle. So
• 38:27
  S13: that's what I think. Toxic empathy is. It is an
• 38:30
  S13: empathy that feels for someone in such a way that
• 38:33
  S13: it affirms even the things they're doing to themselves that
• 38:35
  S13: are bad, and then also whipsaws back on you because
• 38:39
  S13: that bad thing will affect you and other people.
• 38:41
  S5: Yeah. Really profound thoughts there. Abdu Murray. My guest right now, speaker, author,
• 38:46
  S5: attorney who specializes in addressing issues where religious faith and
• 38:51
  S5: emerging cultural trends intersect and in fact, collide. I'm going
• 38:55
  S5: to give you a link to a website here. That's
• 38:57
  S5: one of the best sites you're going to find for
• 38:59
  S5: this guy's no doubt about it. That's coming up in
• 39:01
  S5: just a moment. Abdu, this is this is an important
• 39:05
  S5: topic because I've felt for a long time when it
• 39:09
  S5: comes to truth, we fall off two sides. I love
• 39:13
  S5: to call it the high ridge. I've probably done this
• 39:15
  S5: with you many times, but it's a metaphor that I
• 39:17
  S5: had from my hiking days in Alaska, where you get
• 39:20
  S5: up on this high ridge and if you fall to
• 39:22
  S5: one side, you can die. If you fall the other side,
• 39:24
  S5: you wish you would have. And it seems like the.
• 39:28
  S5: The church I'm using big, broad terms right now has
• 39:32
  S5: aired in two ways. Either we have this toxic empathy
• 39:37
  S5: which is not willing to tell the truth, and we
• 39:41
  S5: kind of let it go, or we go to the
• 39:43
  S5: other side and we speak truth in such a manner
• 39:46
  S5: that it is so off putting. I call it angry evangelicalism.
• 39:50
  S5: How do we stay on this high ridge of really
• 39:53
  S5: compassionate truth telling?
• 39:56
  S13: And I think this is, um, one of the biggest
• 39:59
  S13: temptations I think, in society now is to, uh, do
• 40:03
  S13: one of those two extremes. We're in a society now
• 40:05
  S13: where extreme is rewarded. It's rewarded on social media. It's
• 40:09
  S13: rewarded in our social interactions where you can't have any
• 40:13
  S13: such thing as subtlety and or nuance and trying to
• 40:16
  S13: approach a topic or even a person's issues. Um, so
• 40:19
  S13: you have to either be completely affirming or totally anti
• 40:23
  S13: whatever that person happens to be saying or doing, and
• 40:26
  S13: the Bible calls us to do something that's right in
• 40:28
  S13: the middle of that high ridge. And I think the
• 40:31
  S13: first thing I think in order to help us avoid
• 40:33
  S13: that is to is two things. One is to bathe
• 40:36
  S13: our our day in prayer in the beginning, especially about
• 40:39
  S13: those we're going to interact with or the issues we're
• 40:41
  S13: going to come across because the world is competing for
• 40:45
  S13: our attention and it rewards outrage. It rewards with likes
• 40:49
  S13: and clicks and attaboys. And here, let me get you
• 40:52
  S13: in front of this or say this thing and, uh,
• 40:55
  S13: you know, all that kind of stuff with outrage rather,
• 40:58
  S13: how do we approach something and we say, you know what? No,
• 41:01
  S13: we're going to approach something with subtlety. Even if we
• 41:04
  S13: outrage the people who want us to be outraged by
• 41:07
  S13: our lack of outrage. Right? That's okay. But we look
• 41:11
  S13: so we bathe it in prayer. How are they going
• 41:13
  S13: to honor Christ and honor the people who are made
• 41:15
  S13: in God's image? And then we actually look to Christ's
• 41:17
  S13: image through his interaction with people. And so you see
• 41:21
  S13: Jesus walking this high ridge all the time. And it's
• 41:24
  S13: not always easy. The apostle Paul did it. The apostle
• 41:27
  S13: Peter did it. You see it throughout the scriptures, um,
• 41:30
  S13: where people had to at some point walk this narrow
• 41:34
  S13: road where they're saying, look, I'm not going to let
• 41:36
  S13: you stay where you are. I'm going to challenge you.
• 41:39
  S13: And sometimes that level of challenge has to be based
• 41:41
  S13: on the person you're talking to. So if Jesus talked
• 41:44
  S13: to somebody with a lot of power and a lot
• 41:46
  S13: of authority, then he spoke with power and authority to
• 41:50
  S13: that person to challenge them in the ways that they're
• 41:52
  S13: not doing something right. And sometimes it was biting, but
• 41:55
  S13: it wasn't humiliating. That's the important thing. He didn't humiliate someone, rather,
• 42:00
  S13: he taught them something. And it was at some point
• 42:03
  S13: up to them to actually embrace that. The rich young
• 42:05
  S13: ruler is a great example. Uh, he comes to him
• 42:08
  S13: and to Jesus and says, what must I do to
• 42:09
  S13: attain eternal life? And he knows that Jesus is a
• 42:11
  S13: good teacher. That's why he keeps calling him good teacher,
• 42:14
  S13: good master. And then Jesus actually says, And Jesus, loving him,
• 42:19
  S13: said to him, you lack one thing. So all you
• 42:23
  S13: have and follow me now. Jesus didn't say, everyone needs
• 42:26
  S13: to sell all they have and follow me in that particular.
• 42:28
  S13: He says, you lack one thing. And the Bible specifically
• 42:32
  S13: says Jesus loved him and told him that. But at
• 42:34
  S13: the same time, Jesus looked at other people who weren't
• 42:37
  S13: in high authority, who were sinners just as much as
• 42:40
  S13: that guy was as well. But because they didn't have
• 42:43
  S13: this pride of authority, rather they had this dejected ness
• 42:45
  S13: to them, is that he looks at the woman at
• 42:47
  S13: the well and basically says, all those chips on your shoulder.
• 42:51
  S13: I am telling you, I know everything about you and
• 42:55
  S13: I'm inviting you to be in the kingdom of God,
• 42:57
  S13: even though you're a Samaritan, an outsider. And she got
• 43:00
  S13: so excited that she became the cross-cultural evangelist. She was,
• 43:04
  S13: I think, yeah. And he go. So he goes back
• 43:06
  S13: from that prayer in the beginning of the day, how
• 43:08
  S13: am I going to interact with people who disagree with
• 43:11
  S13: me or who need my help? And two, how am
• 43:15
  S13: I going to emulate who Jesus actually was and how
• 43:18
  S13: he did things? And look to the scripture to see
• 43:20
  S13: how someone can walk that high ridge, because it's not
• 43:23
  S13: an easy thing to do. Uh, but it is a
• 43:25
  S13: necessary thing to do. And you'll lose people and you'll
• 43:28
  S13: gain people. But that's the way life works.
• 43:31
  S5: I love it. Abdu Murray. My guest right now, I'm
• 43:33
  S5: going to give you a quick one. I'm going to
• 43:35
  S5: veil it a bit. It was a number of years ago.
• 43:37
  S5: There was a very high level national leader who stood
• 43:41
  S5: for things that I stood wholeheartedly against. Um, abortion, uh, even, uh,
• 43:48
  S5: some social issues that seemed ultimately destructive to our national good.
• 43:53
  S5: But he came up with a plan to address this
• 43:56
  S5: fatherless young men challenge that we have in our nation.
• 44:01
  S5: And I made a post cheering for that. I had
• 44:03
  S5: a couple of comments I had to block because they
• 44:05
  S5: were from angry Christians who said, how can you agree?
• 44:09
  S5: I think that's kind of a proving field, isn't it,
• 44:12
  S5: that we need to be careful, that we are not
• 44:17
  S5: anathema on everything that comes out of everyone's mouth. If
• 44:20
  S5: there's something we can agree on, what's the benefit of
• 44:23
  S5: cheering for something that we agree with?
• 44:27
  S13: Well, and that's the issue too, isn't it, is that
• 44:30
  S13: we have, as Christians especially, we have to remember that
• 44:33
  S13: we believe every human being is made in God's image,
• 44:36
  S13: which means that I can separate the value of a
• 44:39
  S13: person from the value of their ideas. And there are
• 44:42
  S13: times when their ideas are terrible, but the person is
• 44:44
  S13: still inherently valuable. And there are times when that same
• 44:47
  S13: exact person actually has great ideas. Now, if I engage
• 44:53
  S13: in tribalism, where it's always my side and my people
• 44:57
  S13: and only me who has good ideas, or only us
• 45:00
  S13: who has good ideas, then we're going to pass by
• 45:02
  S13: on some ideas when we can actually join and lock
• 45:05
  S13: arms with people and say, okay, this issue, we're going
• 45:08
  S13: to tackle this issue. We can disagree on other matters,
• 45:10
  S13: but I'm not compromising my stance on the things I
• 45:14
  S13: disagree with you on just because I happen to agree
• 45:16
  S13: with you on this one thing. Yeah, that's. And that
• 45:20
  S13: to me is what holds in many ways, whether it's
• 45:23
  S13: political or religious or social. That's what holds, I think
• 45:27
  S13: the West in general and America in specific back. I
• 45:32
  S13: remember thinking about this and talking with someone about the
• 45:34
  S13: fact that we're so partisan in so many ways, because
• 45:37
  S13: if someone on the other side of the political issue
• 45:40
  S13: has a really good idea, we have to denounce the
• 45:43
  S13: idea that we even agree with because we didn't have
• 45:46
  S13: it yet. And then when our side comes up with it,
• 45:48
  S13: it's the best idea since sliced bread, right? Because it's tribalism.
• 45:52
  S13: The question is, are we about truth or tribe? Which
• 45:54
  S13: one is it? And if you're about truth, you're going
• 45:56
  S13: to upset your tribe. Go back to Jesus once again.
• 45:59
  S13: He upset his tribe. He upset his disciples. He he
• 46:03
  S13: lost followers sometimes on purpose because he refused to compromise
• 46:08
  S13: where he thought someone else who didn't, who didn't deserve
• 46:11
  S13: his grace did. Zacchaeus is a great example. You know,
• 46:15
  S13: as a Middle Easterner, Jesus walks into a town. He's
• 46:18
  S13: already famous, he's already got a following. And all these
• 46:21
  S13: people want him to come to their house. So the
• 46:23
  S13: Bible doesn't say it, but the reality is, is that
• 46:26
  S13: everyone would have been saying, Jesus, come to my house, Jesus,
• 46:28
  S13: come to my house. And there was, of course, some
• 46:30
  S13: mention of that in the Bible. But when Jesus sees Zacchaeus,
• 46:33
  S13: the one everyone hates trying to hear what Jesus is saying.
• 46:37
  S13: Jesus says, Zacchaeus, I'm going to your house. He didn't
• 46:39
  S13: get invited. Zacchaeus house, he invited himself. And so in
• 46:43
  S13: that sense, what he said to everybody else who was
• 46:45
  S13: trying to invite him for status, he said, I'm not
• 46:48
  S13: here for your status. I'm here for that guy. And
• 46:51
  S13: they hated that guy. So he undoubtedly lost followers in
• 46:55
  S13: doing so. So we have to understand that sometimes we
• 46:58
  S13: have to actually interact with those we don't agree with
• 47:01
  S13: on many issues, because we do care about this one
• 47:04
  S13: particular issue. And ultimately, when we agree with that person
• 47:09
  S13: on one thing, maybe they'll say, hey, wait a minute, what?
• 47:12
  S13: What's going on here? Why are you agreeing with me? Well,
• 47:15
  S13: because truth is truth no matter who says it. And
• 47:18
  S13: I want you to hear me when I say truth
• 47:20
  S13: as well. You gain credibility when you lock arms with
• 47:24
  S13: somebody who you otherwise disagree with, because you happen to
• 47:26
  S13: agree on the same thing and you've put truth over tribe,
• 47:30
  S13: and then maybe they'll put truth over tribe the next
• 47:33
  S13: time they think about who you are.
• 47:35
  S5: Oh, Abdu, this is great. One final thought here on this.
• 47:40
  S5: Jesus does say that there comes a time when you
• 47:43
  S5: can't cast pearls before pigs, and it's a strong metaphor
• 47:50
  S5: for the way I take it is some people can't
• 47:54
  S5: handle the truth. I'm not quoting an old movie, but
• 47:57
  S5: there we go. Um, some people can't handle the truth.
• 48:01
  S5: How do we measure whether or not there comes a
• 48:04
  S5: time in a relationship when we just be quiet and realize,
• 48:08
  S5: I apparently am not the messenger. It could be a
• 48:11
  S5: wayward kid, could be a boss, could be a colleague,
• 48:13
  S5: could be a spouse. How do we measure that?
• 48:17
  S13: Oh gosh, that's one of the age old questions. I
• 48:19
  S13: get this all the time and I wrestle with it
• 48:20
  S13: myself all the time. This is an important thing for
• 48:24
  S13: us to really wrestle with, because we have to pray
• 48:26
  S13: through these things at this particular at a particular moment
• 48:29
  S13: is to say, when am I casting pearls before swine?
• 48:31
  S13: When am I when's the next best, when's the next move?
• 48:35
  S13: I'll give you a quick example of this, is that
• 48:37
  S13: a friend of mine was engaged in an online dialogue
• 48:40
  S13: with a very harsh atheist. And as he was engaging
• 48:44
  S13: and he was giving good arguments, the very smart, very
• 48:47
  S13: thoughtful atheists objections were becoming more and more desperate. In fact,
• 48:51
  S13: well beneath this atheist intelligence and integrity. And my friend
• 48:55
  S13: started to get really frustrated. He's like, look, this is
• 48:57
  S13: devolved now. Maybe this is about me. Maybe something happened here,
• 49:01
  S13: I don't know. So he wrote a really long response
• 49:04
  S13: and then said, you know what? I'm going to write
• 49:05
  S13: something else and it's just going to be clearly, you
• 49:07
  S13: and I are wasting our time. This is no longer
• 49:09
  S13: about the truth. This is about who wins the conversation.
• 49:12
  S13: So I think I'm just done. And his wife told him, hey,
• 49:15
  S13: you already wrote the response. The long response. Why don't
• 49:18
  S13: you just pray about it and then send the long response?
• 49:21
  S13: And if that becomes ridiculous, then you just say, okay,
• 49:24
  S13: we're done. He said okay. He sent the long response
• 49:28
  S13: and the atheist wrote back and said, you know what?
• 49:32
  S13: That was the last straw. I have nothing more. And
• 49:35
  S13: my desperation to not believe this stuff. You finally answered
• 49:37
  S13: everything that I've thought about and I want to become
• 49:40
  S13: a Christian. So what happens now? Does that mean that
• 49:44
  S13: every time that happens. No. But you pray about it
• 49:47
  S13: and you give it that one last shot. The temptation
• 49:49
  S13: is to give everything one last shot over and over again.
• 49:53
  S13: And you have to. But sometimes just being present, being
• 49:57
  S13: a person, being someone with integrity, is as much of
• 50:00
  S13: a witness as the words you've used in the past. And, um,
• 50:06
  S13: it's a time for prayer. I mean, I've had people
• 50:08
  S13: in my life where I've had to say, look, I'm
• 50:10
  S13: just going to live as well as a, of a
• 50:14
  S13: Christian as I that can possibly live in their life.
• 50:17
  S13: The talking is I'm not going to say anything new,
• 50:20
  S13: and they're not going to hear anything new, and nor
• 50:21
  S13: are they going to say anything new. It's time for
• 50:23
  S13: us to just live our lives and see what happens. Um,
• 50:26
  S13: and oftentimes people will actually listen because of your deeds,
• 50:31
  S13: not just because of our creeds. Now they'll come to
• 50:34
  S13: believe our creeds through our deeds. But, um, that's a
• 50:37
  S13: matter of prayer. It's always a tough one. It's always
• 50:40
  S13: a tough one.
• 50:41
  S5: Yeah, it's it's it's a fallback plan. Let my light
• 50:44
  S5: so shine. Oh, God. Before man, that they will see
• 50:47
  S5: my deeds and glorify you. Who is in heaven. Abdi,
• 50:51
  S5: this is so dynamite. You're listening right now going. Who
• 50:54
  S5: is this guy? Abdu Murray. He's got a website called
• 50:57
  S5: Embrace the Truth. Let me give you a direct link
• 50:59
  S5: to him right now. It's called embrace. That's the word.
• 51:02
  S5: Text embrace to 800 555, 7898. One word embrace to
• 51:10
  S5: 800 555, 78, 98.