Latest / Talking Italy / “Please don’t sweat in our gym”: Scott Schuman on the art of looking effortless
Transcript
- Isobel Giles: Hello, I'm Isobel Giles, and this is Talking Italy from Italy Segreta. Each week, I ask my guest to explore an Italian word in their own words. I hope you enjoy listening. Isobel Giles: Scott Schumann is one of the founding street style photographers. Born in Indiana. He worked his way from local retail stores to New York fashion showrooms. Before walking away from it all to capture strangers on the street. In 2005, that pursuit became the Sartorialist, a blog that changed the way we think about fashion. His work has appeared in Vogue, GQ, and is featured in the permanent collections of museums, including the V&A. He's published six books. The latest Milano came out in December, 2025 with a foreword by the late, great, Giorgio Armani, who wrote Scott's Photos capture Milan's energy, strength, and determination to [00:01:00] start a new each morning knowing that hard work will reveal the possible solutions. Today's word is Sprezzatura. The art of making effort look effortless. Scott, welcome to Talking Italy Scott Schuman: thank you. Thank you. Welcome to my palazzo. Isobel Giles: Thank you so much. Let's start with the word itself. How do you define. Scott Schuman: Well, the people like to say it's, something a little fucked up, you know, a little messed up, something almost perfect and a little messed up. And I like that. I do think that's true. Italians like that. Italian guys really like to have that, but like anything, it can become a little corrupted. Isobel Giles: Absolutely. Scott Schuman: So you see guys here and not just the Italians, but especially in men's wear, it's not such a thing in women's, but in men's wear, it's a big thing. Agnelli was famous for wearing his watch outside on his shirt cuff, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now a lot of guys wear their watch on their shirt cuff or the top buckle of their double monk strap shoes undone, or one collar out. So I think sprezzatura is a great word if it's real. Mm-hmm. But I Think a lot of guys think, oh, hey, I've got sprezzatura. Let me mess up a little everything on my outfit. When you see it and it's charming and it's real, it's great. But like anything you have to really kind of cherry pick. Isobel Giles: And you mentioned Agnelli there. Do you think it's something that's uniquely Italians or do you think it's just that the Italians have a word for it? Scott Schuman: I think the, that the Italians have a word for it, but I think that Italians are also more playful. Isobel Giles: Mm-hmm. Scott Schuman: They're playful. They have kind of a fun that the French don't have. Mm-hmm. The French are kind of, pfff, I think that is maybe the most popular French word, pfff. Or I have to say it louder, pffff. And the English are very proper, the Americans are very sporty and they also want it to be cool. But the Italians have a charming sense of humor, oh, what, uh, I forgot to do this, uh, top strap on my monk strap. So yeah, I think it's about something being a little charming. Isobel Giles: How do you see it expressed in Milan, sprezzatura? You know, do you think that's quite specific to the city? Scott Schuman: Oh, no, no. Now you see it everywhere. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: Now you see it everywhere. Everybody does it in a different way, but for me it really has to be something that's natural to the person. I wanna see how they do it with a hoodie because that's such a new thing. How do you have sprezzatura with a hoodie? You know, who's really good with something like that is a Miu Miu show. The way they style Miu Miu the pant is really puddled around the ankle just right the way, the pants sit on the hips. I think Miuccia Prada right now with Miu Miu, when she does a men's look on a girl, is the best design that you see right now. It's the best styling of men's wear, I think, anywhere. It's definitely something that I got more inspiration from than any of the other men's shows. Definitely more than Gucci. Yeah, this is Demna's Gucci fall/winter show in Milan. Right. Isobel Giles: Oh Scott Schuman: yeah, boy. I had a book party the other night and it was really fresh on everyone's mind. I was asking everyone, what do you think of Gucci? Because it's Such a major brand. They're at such a moment having just said their revenues are halved right now and they really need someone to find the answer. But that show, oh my God, what a disaster., So under designed, Isobel Giles: I mean, what was it that really got to you about the show? Scott Schuman: It's just totally under designed. There's just nothing there. The first look is a plain white dress. The men's wear is non-existent. And I'm sorry, a t-shirt up over your shoulder going across this way with your exposed stomach is not sprezzatura. And it just makes you mad after a while because even though I'm not a Demna fan I'm sure he has the ability to do something great and he was there for months and months and months and that's what you come up with. Yeah. All I want to see is good design. Like Rick Owens is someone, that's not my style, but I love going to Rick Owens shows. I could not wear any of it, but you watch the show and you're like, oh my God, what a genius this guy is. And I love when he does something even a little bit different than what he usually does, maybe plays with color. I love that he challenges his own customers. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: Demna just didn't do any of that. And also, did you see, how did he let some of those girls go out on that very long runway who could not walk at all? It was painful to watch. Isobel Giles: They were extraordinarily high heels. Scott Schuman: How do you just not take them and say, okay, sorry, I thought you could walk in these, you're not going out. Watching it was uncomfortable. So I don't know. But to me, that's the fun of fashion. It's like sports. Yeah. If you're really into it and you really like it and you follow it closely and you follow the players, literally the players on the scene of fashion you can have a really fun discussion mm-hmm. About it. Isobel Giles: Let's talk now a little bit about Milan. When was the first time that you came here to the city? Scott Schuman: It was in the summer of, I think 1987 on a school trip. It was the first time I'd ever been out of Indiana. And by That time already I had been reading all about fashion. I was the only guy in my class of 30 girls and me, which was a pretty great idea. But I was the only one that was super into it. Most of the other girls were just kind of into it, not really. I was the one that was like, okay, where are we going? I've mapped it all out. I wanna go to that store and that store and that store, and I'll go here and blah, blah, blah. And I Was just totally into it. Very young age. I don't know why. I think, well, because I grew up in Indiana and if you've ever been there, it's very nice place to visit and it's fine to grow up, but it's great to make you want to go somewhere else, make you curious, curious about the world, right? So I started looking at GQ very early and Vogue very early. And I'd look at those magazines and think, oh wow, they look like they're having fun. Mm-hmm. Wherever they are. And one of those places was Milan. And at that time, this was back in the eighties before the internet, Milan was very mysterious. There were no movies, famous movies set here like there are in Paris and London, New York. So Milan had this mystery, and when I got here I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. It's modern. It's not too big. you're able to get around pretty easy, but it's the density of style, the density of fashion on the people that live here is very high. They really appreciate beauty here in a way that, where I grew up in Indiana that just didn't, , yeah. It was just way too pragmatic and you gotta get everything done and blah, blah, blah. So I think to go to a place where beauty was really appreciated and revered, it was somewhere that I wanted to be. I felt like I had, I'd found my people. Isobel Giles: And I think there's a story that I've heard you talk about with a teacher who had some very strict instructions of, now that you were in Milan, how you had to take your homework home . Scott Schuman: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had just taken my Italian class and I'd have my camera with me and I'd go from class right out to shoot and they would give us homework and so I would take it and fold it so I could put it in my pocket. So I'd have my hands free to hold my camera and shoot and do whatever I had to do. And I wasn't even thinking. And the teacher was there. She saw me starting to fold up my homework and put it in my pocket. And she came over and she's like, Zo, whatcha doing? And I said, I gotta keep my hands free. I'm going to shoot, I've got my camera. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is not correct. And so she goes in, gets a folder, takes my homework from me, flattens it out, puts it in there, and she says, please take it like this. You know, this is your homework. I find a lot of things at first, very, unlike what I'm used to do. And you give it a beat and think, okay, I moved here. I can do that. Now I take my homework very neatly with me. Or even like in America, you wear your sneakers to the gym and then you just wear them in the gym. Here, you've got to bring your outside sneakers and your inside sneakers and you have to have a special towel and you really wonder if they want to work out like, oh, please don't sweat in our gym. This is a gym, but it's still Milan. Please don't sweat. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Control yourself. Scott Schuman: Yes, please control yourself. Don't make any noises while you're working out. Those things are at first a little bit frustrating, but then very charming. The grocery store. I go there, I think every day they look at me like they've never seen me before. I try to have fun when I go a little bit. Yeah. Scott Schuman: have a lot of groceries, a whole conveyor belt full of groceries, and they say "sacchetto". I say, uh, no, no, no. "mangio qua, c'è l'hai forchetta"? And they just look at me like, whoa, are you joking? We don't joke in the grocery store. What do you mean you're going to eat it here? There's no joking in the grocery store. You just keep moving, buddy American. Keep moving American. Yeah. Yes. Don't try and make jokes here. So I think, uh, everyone in the neighborhood knows Isobel Giles: that Scott Schuman: there's an American living here. Yeah. Isobel Giles: Well, we'll come back to insider outsider later on, but first I wanted to talk to you about Indiana. Scott Schuman: Really Isobel Giles: Well. Just, do you wanna talk about Indiana just to touch, I'm interested in, you put it as, over their clothes were just something you had on so you weren't naked. And I'd love to know when that changed. Was that when you picked up GQ? Scott Schuman: Well I Was a very typical American kid playing sports. And I would start reading about these athletes and they would talk about what they bought with their money, right? So I Bought this stereo and I bought this car and this and that. And oh, he looks so GQ and GQ and so I was curious. So I was in the drugstore one day and I saw gq. I was probably 12 or 13. And I saw it and I flipped through and that's where I started thinking, oh man, these people look like they're having fun. Like my parents were great. I have no complaints about my parents. But they didn't look like they were having fun like they did in the magazine. And where were those women from? I mean, wow. And what they're wearing or not wearing. And these guys are wearing suits, but the sleeves are pushed up. There's a picture of Armani that I bought when I finally made a little bit of money, but I saw that picture. It was in Vogue Magazine and he's got a bike at the end of his runway and, when I was young, I'd see all these pictures of Armani and he's riding his bike to work and I'm like, my dad is a grown man. He would never ride a bike to work. And I never felt oh, I've got to get out of Indiana. To me it just wasn't a question. I was going to move somewhere, I just didn't know where. And I thought it would probably always be New York. I had to teach myself later to dream big. I don't know why. Even though I loved the idea of Milan and fashion, I never imagined I would live here. I sometimes I wish I could go back and be like, dude, you're a smart kid. Learn the language, do the work. ' cause I should have learned the language. I should have figured out how to move here before, but it just, it seemed like Mars. There was no reason to think I could live here. If you would've even told me when I was 30 that I would end up making my living as a photographer, I'd be like, really? I don't know how to take a picture. But I Don't think I discovered my ability or my belief in myself, and I was smart enough to learn things until I was much older. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really inspiring to hear. You know, we often choose paths at a young age and think we're stuck with them. As you say, self-belief and understanding your own abilities can change all of that, and I think it's amazing how icons can influence that growth. You've mentioned already Giorgio Armani was was a huge icon to you from a very young age, and he also wrote the foreword to your latest book, Milano. What was your relationship with him like? Scott Schuman: You always hear, don't meet your heroes. And he Was such a hero that I was always very careful, I've heard so many stories. I know a lot of people that know him, and I always heard good things, but I knew he was tough, really demanding, which I really respect. He's the top, everything goes through him. It's his name on the door. But I Didn't want to ruin that dream. So I knew him enough to be able to keep the dream of that alive, and I didn't really need to know anymore. Just like Bruce Weber is a great photographer, I don't need to know anymore than he's a great photo and the work that he does. Mm-hmm. So with Armani, I never tried to get too close. He was an incredible inspiration in terms of not only his work, his design work from 82, let's say 1980 to 1991 was unparalleled to be able to be so important in men's wear and women's wear. So directional, there was nobody that was his competitor. But also as a person, unfortunately, I picked a hero who even when he was 70, looked 50. He was in great shape. He worked hard. He worked right up until the end. Sometimes I just think, oh, I just want to give in and just have Campari every night and some ice cream, and then I'll find some book and, you know, he's 70 and looking great and all this. And I'm like, okay, I gotta keep going. Still gotta going. I gotta keep going. I didn't start the, until I was 38. Mm-hmm. And I'd only started photographing a little bit before that took off right away. But that means I'd like to have 40 years of work by the time I'm done, I have to work till I'm 78. I have to be in good shape until I'm 78. Isobel Giles: You're in good shape. I have every faith in you. Scott Schuman: Well, thank you. But it is not easy. Yeah. But it's A huge inspiration to see someone who really believed so passionately in what they do and was just really in love with their work. And I feel the same way. My dad was the same way. My mom was the same way. So he was a great inspiration, not only as an artist, but also as a person and the way he worked. He was really good that way. Isobel Giles: There's a quote from Armani that i'd love to read out. It's one of the most beautiful quotes about Milanese style. Uhhuh, that's in the full word to your book. He wrote, it's what I admire most about the city, that blend of elegance and pragmatism. That modern way of living, that polite, vanity and the pleasure of dressing well, not excessive, but careful and dignified, a style that is far from ostentatious, but rather an invitation to discover the truth of the person beyond social niceties. You know this idea of polite vanity. Scott Schuman: Mm-hmm. Isobel Giles: Do you think that that's a beautiful way of saying Italians are deeply conscious about what people think? Scott Schuman: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So vain in such a beautiful way, such a charming way. All of my friends, the ones I photograph a lot, they have no problem telling you, I'm so vain. I'm so vain. I love when you take pictures of me. But the opposite of that is if I haven't taken pictures of them in a while, they say, oh, you don't like me anymore. You haven't taken any pictures of me lately. Hmm. But because It's northern Italian there is a subtlety to it. Mm-hmm. It's not southern Italian. It's not Dolce and Gabbana. There is a refinement to it. Which I really like, it's about quality. It's the way something fits. It's how beautifully and subtly it's put together. So I always, appreciated that kind of fashion and that kind of style, like for me when I was growing up it seems like most people either like fashion because of the status it brings them and, oh, look at me. I can afford this Birkin bag and I'm just so great because I have all this status and to me that was so unimportant. And maybe because I didn't really know anyone that was actually wearing those clothes when I was growing up, I didn't even know that that was part of it. To me, it was all about the design and the beauty and how beautifully you can make something. I would read the reviews for the shows. That I would get days later from stealing the women's wear daily at college and reading all about the shows. And again, Armani was really great at talking about his collections and he would talk about, plush velvets and spongy wools and rich corduroys and all these things. And you think, I wanna wear those coat that sounds so great to put a spongy wall that just sounds so comfortable, and plush velvet and all of these. And back then people talked much more about the clothes themselves. If you listen to a show now, you listen to Gucci, he's talking about being culturally relevant and this and that, hardly anything about the clothes themselves and. Northern Italian Milans specifically, it's really about, the finest cotton, they want the most beautiful pajamas. So there's a vanity, but it's a vanity built on quality. Isobel Giles: Yeah. And it's interesting, right, because there's been a huge buzz in recent years around this idea of quiet luxury, and it feels like the Italians and Milanas especially have always been in the know. They have this appreciation for clothes in a way that isn't excessive. It's not about having vast wardrobes, it's more select pieces that are tailored to perfection and cared for very well. I think that's quite unique here. Scott Schuman: I think people get confused with the idea of quiet luxury, that it's under designed quiet luxury means, almost you don't see it. But Milan, that's not the case. The one thing that Milan always did really well was men's wear. And the guys that I always really looked up to, like Beppe Modenese and Luciano Barbera and Armani, what they did really great was a striped shirt with a patterned dot tie say, and a plaid jacket. Quiet. Design is quiet, but it doesn't mean it's not designed. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: It means it is so tastefully done, so well done. It's like a beautiful risotto. Isobel Giles: Mm-hmm. Scott Schuman: It doesn't mean that it's just rice, there's a subtlety to the saffron. But I think it makes you sit forward a little bit. What is he wearing? Okay, I see. It's got this beautiful little dot and a stripe, and with a plaid jacket and a beautiful gray flannel pants. It's designed that makes you wonder, oh, who is that person? Well, Isobel Giles: it's like the, the mystery of Milan that pulled you in in the eighties. Scott Schuman: Right. I think it's the whisper of it. Like a beautiful music or like I said, like a great meal. There's something I think really seductive about being so good that you don't have to scream about it. Isobel Giles: Yeah. And it's an attitude as well. You can have the perfect outfit and then on the wrong person, it's lost. Scott Schuman: When you know you look great and you know you look different and you know it fits right and you put a little effort into it, not a lot, but a little bit of effort into it, I think it just makes them very charming, because they know they look great, but they don't have to tell you. They've dressed for themselves. I think about someone like Luciano Barbera, and he's so charming and so funny, and he never really has to talk about his clothes. 'cause you can tell he's done it for himself. Yeah. I imagine him dressing in the morning going, all right, I got that striped shirt. I haven't worn it with that tie yet. And, oh, I could wear it with that jacket. You can tell he is doing it for himself, not to impress everybody else that it's his own personal challenge. Mm-hmm. I think that's really the Milanese way of doing it, doing it for themselves, and it is seductive that way. Isobel Giles: Now I'd like to go back to that image you mentioned before of Armani riding through Milan on his bike, sort of shirt and tie suited up, but carefree and almost childish, and that's something we see quite a lot in your own work. Has that image always been inspiring the pinnacle of what it is? Great photography. I really see a huge correlation there. Scott Schuman: I think everybody wants the idea that, when you get dressed up, you can actually have fun and be relaxed in your clothes. I think that's the underlining thing that people see in those photographs. When I'm taking pictures of people flying by on their bikes up here on Via Senato, not only are they dressed well, but they look like they're. Really wearing their clothes. When you see someone going by on their bike and it's summer and it's hot, and maybe they're sweating a little bit and the jacket's tied around their way, it's them really living their real life. They're flying by so fast, I don't have a chance to go exactly what are they wearing? You're just kind of reacting. But it speaks to me in a way of wow, okay, these people really own their clothes and they're having fun the way they dress. And it's just a part of who they are. You stop and you're gonna get aperitivo on the way home, on your bike and you've got your dress or your suit or whatever. And i'm just reacting to what I see and thinking, oh, something about that feels right. I like how that person put that together. Isobel Giles: Yeah. And I, think you've spoken about a revelation moment between Via Senato when you captured someone passing by on a bike and then there was another, and then Uhhuh, there was another. Was that sort of the moment something changed? Scott Schuman: well it's so funny that you bring that up because that moment I was trying to figure out a deal with this company based here in Milan to do a book about Milan. They're very nice people, great company, but we just had slightly different visions of what we wanted the book to be. Unfortunately, it was going to be a very good deal for me. To do that book. And it was very hard to walk away to say, no, I can't because I love Milan. I've got to do the book on Milan exactly the way that I see it. And so I was walking home and I was just feeling sorry for myself. Yeah. You know, oh, why is life so tough? But I'm not gonna give up. And I was standing on the corner there Via Senato, and I was just standing there and I saw a girl go by on her bike. It was in June. And I quickly got my camera up and got one shot. And usually When I'm out shooting, I get maybe. 1, 2, 3 photographs a day, sometimes zero, quite often, zero. So I was happy I got that shot and then a couple moments later, another girl went by or maybe it was a guy and I got another shot. And I think just standing there I got four or five shots and I thought, wow, that's really unusual, that hardly ever happens. And shots that I really liked. So I thought, okay, I'm gonna come back here again tomorrow just to see if that was, a unusual happenstance. And I got the next day, 10 shots and I thought, okay, Isobel Giles: this is Scott Schuman: my new Isobel Giles: place. Scott Schuman: This is, yeah. 'cause usually I'm always moving. I hardly ever stay in one place. By that time I had already been doing the blog almost 19 years at that point. And so when you create a visual language, the hard part is after you've been doing it for a while, how do you keep the audience interested and how do you keep challenging yourself? . Like the first images I was shooting were actually over here, and I know you guys won't be able to see this on the podcast, but there's a photographed over here of a guy that looks like a mortician that was shot by August Sander, a very still image. And I saw that image in a book. Years ago, and I thought, wow, I love that. And the way he's so still on the streets and not up against the wall. So you get a sense of the city and you get a sense of him and the background, the environment that he's in. So all my first photographs were these very still photographs on the streets, and not until it really got super popular when I started doing style.com and going to the shows, everybody started copying that. So I had to evolve. And so I shot in a different way from then. I was always trying to find something new and finally I found another new way of shooting, which was on the corner there, or there's a couple of corners now that I go to. But to do the same kind of shot, but with motion, when you really see someone moving and their hair is flying or, you see a guy in a suit and it's raining and he's got his umbrella and he is still riding his bike with an umbrella and the suit's perfect, even in the rain. You know, you see all the time girls at the intersection there and they've got a moment. So they take out their makeup and they're fixing their makeup or they're combing their hair. I shoot on that corner with a long lens. So they may or may not see me. And usually when I'm shooting on the street, I shoot with a a 50 or maybe an 80. So it's a much shorter lens. And I stop the person and I'm much closer to them. And so it's a much more of a one-on-one contact, but on the bike I shoot much further away. So it's much more in the moment kind of shots. But, that's become a really fun place, and some way that I really look forward to because to do it the way I really want to do it, you can really only do it during a certain period, creates the right drama. It's like when they come out with the Cadbury eggs at Easter, you're like, okay, I'm ready for my Cadbury. This is the time. Yes, this is the time. Isobel Giles: And would you say that that's sort of where you find the most sprezzatura in the city? Scott Schuman: Um, I'm not looking for something. Mm-hmm. When I shoot, I like to be surprised. I'm reacting just like the bike shots, it happens too fast. I'm just reacting. And in Milan , it's not a big city, so. You can go anywhere and really find something to surprise you, something to delight you. I think once they feel like they know what you're gonna do. It's done. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: You have to keep surprising them. The next book, I think it's gonna be kind of a beach book where I'm going to, a lot of the beaches just in Italy exciting. And uh, it's about half done now and so it's kind of a cross between Slim Aarons, Bruce Weber and me. So it's definitely gonna be the sexiest book. Oh wow. The only suits will be swimsuits and it's gonna be sexy and it's gonna be, you know, Capri, but it's also going to be Forte dei Marmi. It's going to be Milano Marittima. Isobel Giles: Oh, Scott Schuman: Rimini. Just getting on a train and going somewhere and seeing what's gonna happen. I have a couple of great shots of, towards the end of the day in Italy you have those sunbeds, that little piece that comes out that you pull up over your face. Yeah. And so I've probably got maybe six images, mainly women right now that are kind of laid out on those beds and that part is pulled up over their face and they're just such incredibly beautiful, sexy shots 'cause the way the light rakes over them and one is smoking a cigarette and it's one of those that where you're like, oh, that is good. I just, this a good image. Keep finding that. Yeah. 'cause you have to have the right angle. And it has to be real. It's like the cover of the Milan book. It has to feel, you can't fake that. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: So you have to see it, you have to know you're seeing it when you see it. And then be able to put yourself in the position to be able to shoot it. But also there's more sports in this book. You know, I shot these guys, just south of Mil, Maima, and it was again, really towards the end of the day. And these kids are playing basketball. And the light literally looks like a Caravaggio. It's so dramatic. And instead of them fighting for a religious relic, they're fighting for the basketball. They're all sweaty and beautiful, and their skin is perfect. And again, that's just something that you have to see it, be patient, wait for the right moment and shoot it. And then when you're putting together the book, figure out how it all fits together. Isobel Giles: Very exciting. I'd like to talk a little bit more about fashion week typically are you taking the tram, the taxi, you walking? How do you work? Scott Schuman: I walk and bike. Isobel Giles: Okay. Scott Schuman: I love to bike. I love to walk. You would think I would be more skinny how much I walk. I mean, it's 10,000 steps a day. At least I should really be more skinny. Biking I really like just because you can get all over the place. when you're in a car, it's hard to tell the guy to stop and jump out and get a picture, so a bike makes it much easier. Although, if you wanna hear a funny story, Isobel Giles: always, Scott Schuman: It's an Armani story, and it's probably my most famous Armani photograph, but it was, during fashion week in January, super early Sunday morning, like nine 30 in the morning. And I'm in the taxi. I'm running a little bit late. And we're going down Via Montenapoleone and I look over And I see Armani walking with this other guy at like nine 30 and nobody around. Wow. Nobody's around him. And by that time, I think I'd only ever taken one other photograph of him. And I'm so shocked. And I start telling the taxi door, stop the car. Stop the car, stop the car, stop the car. I take out and I maybe the bill was like seven euros. I throw a 20, I get outta the car and I have to tell myself, okay, be calm. I can't run up to him like a maniac. Okay, pick up. Okay, be cool, be cool. Calm down. Okay. I have to walk over and the shot is taken in the church right across from where Armani hotel is. The thing that I realized very early when you go out shooting, if you're gonna stop someone and say, oh, you look really cool. Can I take a picture of you? The first thing you're gonna do is look at you and say, who's this person? Tell me? Okay. He looks like he knows what he's talking about. Is he legit about like, yeah, and with Armani, he was like, okay, okay. Of everyone I know they say it's one of the best Armani pictures they know because he had a very the practiced way of having this photograph taken. He had very practiced poses. Mm-hmm. Which I really respect. One of the last pictures I ever took of him, it was after a show, and I had asked Anushka who was his main PR person, if I can I just have him for one second to take a picture of him over here? Okay. So she takes him over and I get ready to take a picture of him and I bend down a little bit to get what I think is a nice angle of him. And even at 89 I start to bend ni, he's like, no. No. Up, up. I want, I want a different angle. I don't want a low angle. I want a, that's, I respected that. Yeah, that's, I like that. I like that. Even at 89 he's like, no, get a good angle. What, what are you doing? Isobel Giles: Well, it sounds like that story that you were mentioning at nine 30 on a Sunday morning, that's really when you are capturing sprezzatura, you know, you are managing to capture them in a moment where. It's not curated and it's not sort of controlled, right? Scott Schuman: and he had such great, even though he wore just blue, he did it so well, the way everything fit. Great. And the way he stood and the way he commanded the spot like you always knew when he was in the room. It wasn't what I think of as typical sprezzatura, to me, it's got a little danger to it. And it can be these little dress things, but it's also, having the right kind of charm, almost to be a little bit of a rogue, but, but not really dangerous, but you think mm-hmm. Okay. I have to kind of watch this person a little bit. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: Do Isobel Giles: you think you've got sprezzatura, Scott Schuman: uh, I think I'm too silly for sprezzatura. I'm a dad and I think Armani would not do the things I do. That's the thing. My dad was also, I thought he was very cool, but he was also really silly. I would like to have, and I think that informs the way I shoot. I shoot people that I think, oh wow, he's so cool, or she's so cool. And one of the things I think is a problem today is everyone wants things to be relatable, which I think is code for, I want to feel better than that thing, you know? Oh, I Can do that. Which means I can do it better than they can. I think where I grew up at a time when things were aspirational. Which meant you might not even be able to relate to it because it's so up here that you have to strive to get there. It's not relatable. It's something you have to earn. And Armani, Had a great kind of spread to, and a kind of a charm that way that I really looked up to and I wish I could do that. But I Think from my dad, I got just an ability to not take myself too seriously which works well as a photographer, you know, you have to be able to meet people and if you're too cool you can't put 'em at ease. You have to make them feel good. You have to make them laugh. You have to make them comfortable, be able to do it quickly, which means you have to not take yourself too seriously, which is. Odd because I think a lot of people think of me as very serious. You talk to people with fashion, we go, oh, he's so grumpy. I'm not grumpy. Let's make this clear. I just can't see very well. Yeah. Can you see how many glasses are here? I did, I did Isobel Giles: notice a few face of glasses. Scott Schuman: Right. There are a lot of, I know several pictures of me looking at people like this, and it's not because I'm judging them. I can't see them either. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: Mm-hmm. Big difference. And uh, yeah. Okay. I might be judging them a little bit, but, um, it's only with the best intentions to want to take great photographs of them. But I wish I would've had sprezzatura like, bee Moe. Did you ever meet him? Isobel Giles: Mm, never. Scott Schuman: Ah, he was such an elegant gentleman, so well dressed. And he used to live at the end of Via Montforte, and he was so elegant and he would always kind of pat my cheek and he'd say, ah, you should shave. He didn't like that. He always had like, a little bit you should shave. He had sprezzatura he was just so worldly. But anyway, no, I wish I had more sprezzatura. It's something I still strive for. Isobel Giles: Do you think your daughters have it? I know Isabel and Claudia, right? Yeah. And your girlfriend Anastasia's daughter too? They grown. Oh, Scott Schuman: they're, Isobel Giles: yeah, I bet Scott Schuman: they're very cool. Isobel Giles: I mean, they've got cool dad Scott Schuman: and they, uh, but see, like with them, they see me as dad, and, Anastasia has a lovely young daughter, 11 years old who Anastasia has done a great job raising, just such a elegant young woman. And I come in and ruin it, and I just show her all the dumb things that Americans know how to do. And of course she says, you know, she went and did that the next day at school. Whatever it is, I can't help myself. None of it's bad, but it's just not cool necessarily. But I Have to accept that in myself. To go back to the question, now that I really think about, no, I don't have any sprezzatura. My job doesn't allow me to do that. Isobel Giles: I'm still gonna need convincing on that. Well, okay. it's interesting talking about your process and I'd love to actually talk about it a little bit more. I know you've described yourself as shy in the past, but here with me today, you don't come across as shy whatsoever. What does that moment look like when you are stopping people on the street, and how has that changed over 10, 20 years? Scott Schuman: Well I mean, I never thought it was going to become a thing. When I started doing this, it was when I was stay at home dad, and I thought, oh, it'd be fun. the internet was still young at that time. Social media had not really been created and so I just thought I'd try it out and see if it worked and if you would've told me no, this is your thing, I would've been like, Hmm, okay. Do I really wanna spend the rest of my life walking up to people I don't know in countries all over the world and asking to take their photograph? I'm glad I did it. But when I go out to a party, I'm not the one that needs to be the center of attention. I don't dress to get attention. I like to interact with people, but it's not the thing I strive for. Mm-hmm. I grew up with a friend who always said, ah, when I go to a party, you might not know me, but you're gonna know I was there. And I'd be like, ah, no one has to know I was there. That to me is really not important. But sometimes When you find something you really love, you just say, all right, I gotta suck it up. Yeah. You know, we just had a book signing the other day and then I'm really the center of attention. And Anastasia knows, it makes me really uncomfortable all day. And I just have to build up to, okay, I've gotta bring it, I've gotta bring energy, I've gotta make people comfortable, I've gotta be able to talk to people. And it's not that I don't like doing that, it's just not my first instinct. My typical day is going out by myself and my interaction is very small usually. But it's Something I had to get over and I really cherish the surprises that I have when I stop people and the interactions and things like that. But I just have to learn how to get over it. Isobel Giles: Something that really strikes me about your images is it's not just about the clothes, as I sort of alluded to already, you also capture emotion and a lot of the time you are telling a story of this person, whether it's true or not, Scott Schuman: right Isobel Giles: through the clothes that they're wearing. And I know you also studied costume design as part of your college studies. What's the connection there? I. Scott Schuman: I wanted to be a designer when I was younger and I realized I wasn't good enough to do it, but I knew it was gonna be what I would do for my life. I'm one of these people that really likes to learn a lot about things, as you can tell from all the books. I like to be able to know, oh, that's based on Renaissance, this is based on whatever, because it gives me a competence to be able to look at someone and to go, oh, okay, I know what they're doing. And I think the big thing that differentiates me now is that I'm much more picky about what I'm shooting and I have the confidence to shoot people that other people aren't shooting. A lot of them, you can feel they're shooting all the names. It's protective. You can always say, they're wearing Prada, of course I've gotta a shooter. Of course she's well dressed. Mm-hmm. Where it's much tougher to shoot someone who's wearing something that nobody knows what it is. And you have to look and go, okay, that's pretty good. I don't know what it is. I don't care what it is. It could be h and m, but that looks cool. And I think that's the big difference. Now so many of the people shooting, they have to get a certain number for the people they're working for, and they go very secure. They know taking a picture of Anna Dello Russo that's safe. Isobel Giles: Sure. Scott Schuman: And so That's the way I think I still really differentiate myself is I feel quite comfortable in deciding what looks cool and what doesn't, where I think it's a little trickier for other people to feel the confidence to take their chance and say, oh, that looks cool to me. Nobody else seems to be taking a picture of this person, but I'm gonna do it. Isobel Giles: Mm-hmm. Scott Schuman: And I think that's a big thing. I've never gone after trying to get the biggest audience or doing anything to get likes. Mm-hmm. So that's why I did the India book. Nobody said, Hey Scott, why don't you spend a lot of your money going to India to do an India book that nobody asked for? But I started traveling because I wanted them to see how the idea is not to perfectly copy something, but to be able to look at other cultures and say, oh my God, look at how they do color. To go, ah, taking one design element, like polka dots or plaids or whatever it is, and then just playing with the scale. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't do my work trying to tell people how to dress. Hopefully it's inspiring them to be a little more intellectual to go, ah, mm, maybe I should play with plaids. That's really fun. And you don't have to even go buy new stuff to do that, I'm more happy when people say, oh, you made me rediscover things in my closet, remixing them because I saw a photograph and I saw how someone mixed a Nehru collar jacket with a whatever, and it made me see something in a new way. To me, that's the best compliment I can get. Isobel Giles: Mm-hmm. In 2005, you were one of the only people doing this. Now it feels as though, at Fashion Week especially, the conversation is happening on the streets. Scott Schuman: Mm-hmm. Isobel Giles: In large part thanks to you. I think. Is it difficult to still find authentic moments? Scott Schuman: Yes, unfortunately. I Think we're in a moment right now where when people see Street Style at Fashion Week, they know that those clothes are just given to them to borrow because, two hours later they're wearing a different outfit. It's right off the runway. It doesn't feel authentic. It doesn't feel real. It's one reason I go to shows less now. Mm-hmm. And I'm a little bit older and more secure and so I wasn't willing to do anything. I like sometimes when they offer to dress me for a show. But I had quite a few situations where I would go in and try something on and the PR person's not even looking up. Uh, yeah, it looks great, and you're like, this doesn't look good on me. But I think a lot of people have a hard time standing up for themselves saying, no, I won't wear this, or I'll wear that piece mixed with something else. My advice to a young influencer would be never to wear a look head to toe from a brand, because now you have no brand. You take one piece from them and mix it with a piece from Uniqlo and a vintage piece and something else. Now you are making your brand. But right now. Becomes less interesting to go to Fashion Week because who are these influencers? The people? Yeah. Yeah. Who, who would these influencers? I should take the easy path and keep going to Fashion Week, but I've just have to really push myself to take that chance and hopefully get better content or at least different, I don't know if it's gonna be better, but at least different content than what everybody else is getting. 'cause now I look and you see the same girl shot by all the photographers ' cause they really stand and really try to get their shots. So yeah it's harder to find it, but still out in the streets it's there, Isobel Giles: When you left Working in the showrooms, you had seen that growing gap between what the showrooms looked like and what real people were wearing on the street. Yeah. Is that still the case then, or is it actually now that showrooms are dressing people on the street? Scott Schuman: I think more people really love fashion. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think more people are wanting to be in the fashion game , And you can't step away from the fact that more people realize they have their own little brand. Everybody now, not everybody, but almost everyone, if I stop and take a picture, they say, oh, can you tag me? It wasn't like that in the nineties. It was very hard for people to have their own brand. So I think everyone now, whether they have 2000 followers or 2 million, they are aware of their brand and they want to put it together in a way that's their best foot forward. Isobel Giles: You've described Milan as a city where beauty is its business. What has the city given you that nowhere else could? Scott Schuman: I think to live in beauty and really be inspired, 'cause it's just so ingrained. When I moved in here and I went to buy sheets at the place down the street on Via Ponte Vetero that called Angelina and they specialize in sheets and towels and ropes and all of that. It's just a independent store, the kind that Italy is built on. And I just told him I want white sheets and white pillowcases and all of this. Gave him the dimensions. The guy ordered them, came back and the pillowcase come in a different pack than the duvet cover and all of this. And before he gave it to me, he's taken it over to the window to make sure that the colors match perfectly, that the white of this is the white of this. And he's really careful and I'm thinking at Bloomingdale's, they would just take it and put it in a bag and not even look at you. Not look at that. There you go. You bought it. Good luck buddy. But this guy really care and they really believe in the beauty of what they do, and that's not even typical beauty, but it's a beautiful lifestyle that you don't really have, you don't have in New York, you don't have in the rest of America. Maybe in some small European countries, maybe some other places. But they know that's beautiful. They know how lucky they are to get to, to live that way, and they really fight to hold onto that. So I really appreciate that, and to have that kind of slowness and to say, this is how we wanna live, and we know it's beautiful. Isobel Giles: Mm-hmm. Scott Schuman: And we're gonna hold onto it. That's pretty special. Isobel Giles: Yeah. It's very much beauty is its business, but also its culture. Scott Schuman: Mm-hmm. Isobel Giles: Right? Mm-hmm. So after 20 years of photographing sprezzatura, what are you making Look easy. That's actually really quite hard. Scott Schuman: I think just going to do it every day. Just going to do it. It's a very Italian and Milan thing. They're not always looking for the new thing every day. You're just going and building this beauty every day. It's something That you believe so deeply that you can do it every day and do it beautifully every day. Make that beautiful pastry, make that beautiful drink and not want to change it every five years. In America, we do it for a while. Okay, let's change it. What's the next thing? What's the next thing here? I think they've created their beautiful thing and they just keep doing it. And so I think for me it's just going out and taking photographs every day. Yeah. It's believing in that, figuring out how to challenge myself to keep it fresh for an audience. Hopefully after the Beach book, I'm gonna work on a world book. I've already started the beginning process of seeing how it might work mixing, culture, fashion and style in a way I don't think anyone has done yet. Isobel Giles: That's beautiful. Scott Schuman: I hope so. It is gonna be a fun challenge to do it. Isobel Giles: Beautiful. Scott Schuman: Yeah. To me, fashion is nothing about status. It's nothing about look how fancy. It can really bring the world together of saying, I get what you're doing. It's not what I do, but I appreciate what you're doing. That's really cool. I hope that's what people can take from the books. Isobel Giles: All right, Scott, it's our final act, and I'm going to ask you five quick-fire questions Scott Schuman: okay. Isobel Giles: You don't need to think, just answer Scott Schuman: I rarely do. As you can tell, I rarely think of what I'm gonna say before I say it. Isobel Giles: Favorite place in Italy, Scott Schuman: Anywhere Anastasia, my daughters and her daughter are Isobel Giles: go to Italian dish and where you eat it. Scott Schuman: Oh, well the pizza is very good. Or, aperitivo on a Friday on the beach, it's hard to beat that. It's hard to beat Isobel Giles: that. I'm with you. I can do that now. Essential Italian book, films, song or work of art. Scott Schuman: Mm. The name doesn't sound fun, but they're great. Or the Italian Neorealist films, like, um Visconti and De Sica. The leopard, the Bicycle Thief, all those films, the Bicycle Thief almost makes me cry. There's so many beautiful scenes, I don't think any of them were actual actors. It was filmed right after the war. But a movie like, Cinema Paradiso that was really my introduction to Italy, what Italy can really be like. I think the films are the big thing. Isobel Giles: Favorite Italian expression. Scott Schuman: I think my favorite Italian expression is when I order coffee and I say, uh, "porta via", they're like, no, you, this isn't Starbucks. You can't take away that coffee. No. Isobel Giles: What Has Italy taught you? Scott Schuman: That it's okay to love beauty. It's okay to chase beauty and make beauty part of your life. That you don't have to have a lot of stuff, like I said, the wardrobes aren't big, the apartments aren't huge, but you can have a little stuff and really work on trying to make it beautiful. Isobel Giles: Yeah. Scott Schuman: And that you can have a small life and have a beautiful life. Isobel Giles: Scott Schuman, thank you so much for your time and for talking us through The Italian Art of Making Effort Look effortless in your own words. Scott Schuman: Thank you. Isobel Giles: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Talking Italy and my conversation with Scott. In other news, our latest print magazine, Le Generazioni, has just launched and we think it might just be our best yet. You can find it on our website. Ciao ragazzi. See you next week