Latest / Unfolding: a circular economy podcast / Episode 17 COPcast Day 3
Transcript
- speaker-0: So, w you you guys are sharing this mic, speaker-1: Despite rumours that we would be in the pub doing this round up from a day at COP, we're not, although we do have cans of water. Of water, Special COP 31 water. So here we are. First day for me, Marcus. Wayne, day number... speaker-0: Day number three. speaker-1: Day number three. So anyway, we are here. We've been caught. And yeah, is time for reflection. So... have you learnt Marcus? What have I learnt? Well... Having the tram system works really well, doesn't it? Well, it's the second cop I've been to. speaker-0: I just want to say that everybody's been saying the transport's rubbish and they've been having problems with the transport. Right, absolutely right. And these guys get here. speaker-1: Transport was fine. speaker-0: They had no problem with the transport. How long did registration take you? speaker-1: Two minutes. leaving the hotel to getting through and registered was an hour. So it was smooth. And getting back from the airport was easy on the tram. Cost less than a pound to get from the airport. You know, it's the way it should be. Ironically, I had to fly here. It's really too far. But it cost me £25 to fly here. And that's less than my train ticket to get to Luton Airport. speaker-0: Now they cost you twenty speaker-1: That's what the affair was and I think that's part of the problem really if the flying is so cheap or the train is so expensive Then why it's not surprising so many people are sort of using the plane That's another story, isn't it? So speaker-0: So how's your copy of coffee speaker-1: far cop has been good. I mean I It's the second one I've been to. I went to the Glasgow one back in 2021. The Blue Zone. The Blue Zone as well. was RAP then and it was great to be there. The core message that as RAP we were trying to put over was resources drive climate change. Through participating in events, talking... speaker-0: How did the how was your resources drive climate change? But how did that what were you what was your message then? Is it different from the message where speaker-1: I was about to say no, not really. I mean it was really bringing out how much energy and carbon is tied up in the things that we use to live our lives and particularly the food that we eat and drink and particularly that we waste. speaker-0: So you were at that point still and looking at speaker-1: We were pushing that message hard but it wasn't on the agenda at all then. speaker-0: You and you were there, weren't you all? speaker-1: Yeah but think the main difference is, lots of differences, is like then we were forcing ourselves into conversations. But here clearly it's on the agenda and obviously we've been around listening to some of the presentations and it's clearly not just on the agenda. People are presenting, listening, there's dialogue, there's discussion. Yeah, it's incredible, absolutely incredible. It's here and it's on the agenda. And it's not a sideshow either. It's on the heart of that pavilion and here as well. speaker-0: Well let's let's get on to that. Because I remember in when when was co twenty six, what what year? Twenty two? speaker-1: 2021. 2021. Just coming out of speaker-0: So at that point in time, the 1.5 degrees C report by C42 had been released. Completing the Picture had been released a year or two before. It was kind of peak consumption emissions for people like us. We were starting to talk about consumption emissions and people should take note of that. I think the Climate Change Committee had talked about benchmarking. So we were in that space then. speaker-1: That's right, that was the message. I remember showing graphs of UK territorial and consumption emissions and territorial emissions showing what a great job we've done since 1990. just a minute, look at consumption emissions and actually we're not doing very well. speaker-0: So I remember that discussion. We've talked about food We went about food waste, right? And we we launched our food materials flow report which for the first time looked at territorial waste and consumption emissions. So from there to then so what's your take on the what's been I mean because you were we we were at a report that you were involved in, a report launch that you were involved in Marcus. So tell us about that. speaker-1: Well, it was, we were sort of pushing uphill then, really. It wasn't on the agenda at all. Roll fast forward, was it now, five years on? And COP 31, co-host Turkey wants to make waste central to the climate discussions, which is brilliant to do that. mean, recognising what we've been talking about. mean, they're probably coming in harder on emissions from... recovering waste and preventing methane emissions from organic waste, which is very important. But even that, I that was beginning to be on the agenda back in 2021. But what's really, I mean, and now, know, one of my successors, Catherine David, is sort of promoting the RAP message, which is strongly the same message, strongly food waste. And she's doing a great job. speaker-0: And we interviewed her today, so we'll have that we'll put that out tomorrow. speaker-1: But what struck me, I I so arrived today my first day here, it was a very smooth trip to get here. You've seen that, a very smooth trip win. speaker-0: I did not have to just move to, I think so. speaker-1: I shouldn't really tease him but yeah I mean COP26 wasn't it? It's like a Jamboree when you go in. This one is just the same with country pavilions everywhere. Some of them huge, some of them mean the China pavilion is massive. Some of them are quite sort of small. Not finished. Sorry, they're very efficient at tidying up in here. It's a very cleaned place. I don't want to waste... If I've got to drink it, I don't want to waste it. What was I saying? yes, so you arrive at the Jamboree that is... It's the leaders' day at the moment, so all the sort leaders are in town. So we're not allowed into a lot of areas because of that. But you come to the Jamboree and start off on the Australia stand this morning. And the first thing they start talking about is... Well the targets that Turkey has proposed for zero waste, is one of them is to half the growth in waste generation for municipal waste and the other is to double the sort of circularity of materials to particularly feed the energy intensive industries up to 15 percent. Australia talking about those targets first thing, talking about prevention being critical, focusing on food waste. a nice start. had a nice picture of Sydney Harbour with a pile of food waste that made the Harbour Bridge and the Opera House look tiny and that was Australia's food waste for a year. I remember showing a similar picture of the Vatican. I once again talked at the Vatican about food waste. the UK's food waste would fill St Peter's Square so many times. But powerful messages, powerful images. speaker-0: I we should say today was waste day. Waste today, it's speaker-1: that speaker-0: a theme. So there's lots of there've been lots of discussions about speaker-1: But that prevention theme, everything I've been to keeps coming up. But also bringing out the savings from a greenhouse gas perspective that are possible in big numbers. So I went along to a joint event of the IEA and you know me and the Shape Foundation. talking about a report that IEA has done which said that if by meeting those targets by 2035, projecting saving about one and a half gigatons of carbon dioxide equivalent in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, which is quite a sizable number, then Joe Papineski from Unamion Shake Foundation talked about, if we go out to 2050 and we really push the levers for preventing waste, reusing, reducing and so on, maybe nearly 10 gigatons per year by 2050. And when we're trying to get down from what nearly 60 gigatons tons at the moment. If you could take 10 off that, that's serious reduction. speaker-0: In fact, what h as I understand it what and maybe you comment on this thing 'cause I think what he was saying was without a circular economy, material, upstream activity, you're not gonna you can't get to where you wanna get to, i.e. that mitigating that or one point eight or one point five degree, but we're nowhere near that. I think that's what he was saying, wasn't it? speaker-1: Yeah, no, definitely. I guess more than anything, mean, it's interesting, we started this conversation about five years ago, and I guess there is a difference. So you could say we were talking about this, but we were talking about consumption. No one's using that language. Consumption emissions, but even a much smaller... speaker-0: Consumption emissions we were talking about. And no one's really mentioned. speaker-1: Even embedded, people are talking about the circular economy and the need to reduce carbon within the wider supply chain, know, up downstream as well as upstream. So that's encouraging. I think it's just there is a difference in the language. People are not using that word consumption. We can talk about that later. speaker-0: I wonder if that's 'cause we're a COP and they and they only work on territorial at all. speaker-1: I don't know, but the good thing is you're right, there's clear recognition that it's that upstream activity that is really required if we're going to get the numbers that are now visible. the evidence, there's lots of people giving the evidence about where the carbon is within the supply chain. So people are now recognizing that. So I think that's really quite significant because we did worry, let's be honest, we did worry that we have a bit of a default to just talking about the waste management. bit, about methane capture, need for better waste management more specifically around the world and all of those things. And we did have a bit of a concern, but to be honest, the whole day that's not been the case. That has had its own profile, but the profile around harder to abate carbon through the supply chain upstream and the need for that action is really coming through strong. speaker-0: Yeah, there seems to be a a definite speaker-1: you speaker-0: A golden thread running through all of the not everyone but most of the events that I've been to, and that has been this that in order to make the energy transition, so everyone talks about the energy transition, in order to do that, you need access to materials. So, one, you need to secure those materials, and two, they're in short supply. So, whatever materials you have in your economy, you need to kind of collect and reprocess, and two, the extraction and processing emissions are. Associated with those materials are so significant that some upstream action is needed and that's where the Shape Foundation report. And by that we mean I think generally demand reduction through circular economy business models and our strategies. And that is that nuance is kind of not in any of the normal conversations that we have about secure circular economy. And that's what I find so exciting. speaker-1: I mean we also heard... I was saying yes! speaker-0: You want you? speaker-1: you picked it up! No no it's fine, it's classic! We're not used to third person! speaker-0: Yeah, well now go, what were we gonna say, Barcus? speaker-1: It was interesting because in that same IEA session we also had somebody from the German Environment Ministry. That's right. And she was really interesting talking about how Germany was using their circular economy strategy which I think they brought out two years ago but they had a roadmap come out earlier this year for delivering it. That's really quite ambitious. It's sort of recognised that the circular economy is essential for the words they use are for the sort of international competitiveness of Germany. speaker-0: They did didn't they? And they linked it as well to climate. speaker-1: They also said they will no way meet their 2045 net zero target for Germany. They there's no way of getting there without doing this. No way at all. also said for industrial decarbonisation this is the way to do it. It's very powerful to a country like Germany saying it so strongly. speaker-0: Brilliant. And I was at the the methane reduction event this morning at the G B Pavilion talking to the Welsh environment minister and the head of decarbonisation there. So that was you know that They get it. You know, they're i it's interesting that aside from the kind of waste normal waste people who you know are quite interested in downstream and kind of look upstream and they're not quite sure. This link between materials and transition, I think they do get it in the decarbonisation. They're starting to really kind of understand get maybe more so than the the the kind of circular economy people it speaker-1: Before I came here I did a day, well I both did a day at ISWOP, it's the big international waste management association conference which was Monday, Tuesday and today in London. Either brilliant that it's on the same time as COP or unfortunate, actually I think good actually. think good because it's sort of bringing focus and there's going to be a live link today between the two which we're going to do in about an hour's time. speaker-0: So this is your warm-up? speaker-1: my warm up but I did a panel there on the UK's net zero ambition and the contribution of the UK resource and waste sector to it and there's been a really nice report put together which has looked at the waste sector's emissions which are quite a sizeable number. speaker-0: Sun speaker-1: They've got strategies around things like better landfill, methane reduction, electrification of vehicles and so on. But we talked about the report also quantifies the, if you like, scope three benefits from avoided emissions, which of course are much, much bigger than the savings, much, much bigger than the cost. But we had one of the Welsh government officials on that panel and asking him about that. And again, quite a lot of leadership being shown. And I think it sort of, shows you if you can devolve the responsibility for doing things down to smaller countries and regions, they seem to make much more progress. I mean, it's interesting in the UK, Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland have got a lot further than England. speaker-0: Wales is amazing. speaker-1: Wales is number two now on recycling for instance, but on Scotland... speaker-0: I mean on the on the me thing thing we were chatting to the guy from the IEA and the you as I understand it the UK emissions kind of pie chart is fifty percent agriculture, twenty-five percent landfill our number at Commonwood is like nine or ten percent from or maybe it's twenty percent from leakage from the gas grid and then other and that was that I just thought that was quite interested. But the focus of course is on landfill. and a bit of leakage but not on not on agriculture, you know, which is fifty percent of the problem. And the reason to start on agriculture of course is because it's just really difficult. speaker-1: So yeah, so we have been very positive. Is there a but? There is a but. I do think, no, I think the positive thing about it is on the agenda and people are actually talking about it and resonating with all the things we've just said in terms of the upstream stuff. I do think... you there's a need for action. guess that's the thing. The people who are nodding along are the climate people who recognize where the issue is or where they need to do something about it. But where are the solutions? Where do we have the solutions? And we would argue that there are solutions out there. So it's about how do we convey them. And as I kind of, well, we've talked about a lot in the podcast, a lot of those require those upstream, actually require economic levers to be pulled in terms of creating market pool for those business models. So they're not. they're not wholly owned, well they should be wholly owned by the environmental policymakers, they do require some economic you know particularly even at a local level as you said I mean totally agree with that I mean that was I mean one of the slides one of the presentations set out kind of six things we could do and I think we all agreed that all of those could be delivered without a cop. speaker-0: It's worth remembering our three our three major objectives from our manifesto, which was a a Materials North Star, which there seems to be you know that might well be coming out of this. a kind of legacy governance system which could be the Istanbul platform, we will find out. But the third thing was around the economy, taxing removing incentives for the fossil fuel industry and having incentives for the circuit. That's a big ask actually. That's not gonna happen. speaker-1: But some of that, think, goes back to Marcus's point, some of that can be shaped, that ecosystem, sorry, the environment to create the ecosystem for circular businesses and stuff like that. A lot of that can be done at the local level as well. that's what I'm trying to say. Some of this, I'm not saying it doesn't need a co-op. Some of the actions that we know, but it does need that economic driver as much as the environmental driver. And it's okay, the carbon people are putting their hands up and saying, yeah, we're getting this now, let's take some action. So that's what really I feel is winning the day here. we need know to carry that through with more action upstream. Well what I was going to say, mean we're sat in here and there are these banners everywhere hanging from the roof and they say dialogue consensus action and that's sort of the mantra for this COP. So we're having the dialogue are we getting the consensus we're certainly not getting the action I mean one of the questions there was a session on the Spanish Pavilion which again was talking about voice prevention the same sort of theme but they... There's somebody from Circle Economy there who was doing a great job talking about their work. But I asked about, they produce the circularity metric, which is essentially the target that COP is using. And of course, they've reported that it goes down every year for the last few years. It keeps going down. So I said, well, we've talked about it. We've got consensus on the target maybe. But what about the action? How are we going to get the action to, if that's the target, to push it up? And that really is the challenge here, action. speaker-0: Yeah and I but I think that is driven through this orchestration layer. You know we don't have any circular governance system orchestration layer at the global level, we don't have it at the national level. We actually have it quite successfully at the city level and down. So we have lots of you know transition brokers at that level, but they're not supported above that. And I think that's where where COP can help. Okay, we spoke to Lisa McLean of Circular Australia w at the circular at the Australia Pavilion who were they were launching their communique that they've released. It was really good. And we afterwards we took time to speak to Lisa which will run now and we'll I guess we'll join you, we'll update you all tomorrow on how tomorrow goes. But yeah. Cheers. So I'm going to ask you, to introduce yourself and then perhaps tell us a little bit about why you're here, what your organisation is trying to get over at CoP 31. speaker-1: Well I'm Lisa McLean and I'm CEO and founder of Circular Australia and we're a member-based organisation. So we have lots of members across industry, government and civil society and researchers as well and it's all about transitioning to circularity. And Australia's probably come to that a little later than other countries but it's definitely committed and two years ago we set up a framework, the Australian government set a framework to double our circularity rate and of course we are well behind. the rest of the world our circularity rate is around 4%. So to double that by 2035. speaker-0: Is that using the circularity gap mechanism when you say 4 %? speaker-1: Generally, generally, but I think there's still some, it's still slightly contested and I think that's fair enough because economies are quite diverse as you know. So that's been a very important driver for our work and so the reason why we're here and what our aspirations are on behalf of all our partners is to actually get circular economy and waste reduction into COP and we're starting to see it happen along with awareness of what circular economy is. People sort of think recycling, you know, it's a weird word. What does it mean? And of course it means a lot more than just recycling. We're talking about designing our waste and Europe is leading. 75 to 80 percent of Australia's trading partners, both in Europe and Asia Pacific, have circular strategies and policies. So it is a new economy and we do need to sort of get cracking on it. So we'd like to see it embedded into COP. We cannot get to net zero without zero waste. And we know we can roll out as much renewable energy kit as we solar panels and wind components. But if they crack and break, and when they do, if they're not repaired, and if they're not staying in the economy longer, then they're just undoing the carbon they've abated. So it's a problem. And I think also waste is accelerating at a rapid pace. And if you do look at the circularity gap analysis, you'll see that more than 90 % of stuff we make, including food, is wasted, which is really impossible and unsustainable. So circular economy is decoupling that economic growth from the consumption of finite resources and typically you couldn't ask to do that. People would say it would be crazy to do that but because there is so much waste, 90 % of waste, we can do it and so we believe we've started a momentum, we're leveraging Tokyo's leadership here, Australia is a co-host. speaker-0: Yeah, so we're going to ask that question because as we're obviously in Turkey, but you are the co-host. I know you want to say something about that, you know how much of that is helping you get that message into call? Because you're right, we know that this is the first time really it's been a formal part of the agenda. We've argued it the same for years that know unless we actually start talking not just about waste but materials and the whole issue about know over consumption. How do we really start to address the climate impacts and it should be part of the story. I guess I just really interested in part of that host nation. Has that helped or that managed to create that leverage? speaker-1: Well as we know, politics is always the art of compromise and it's all about the best we can do as humans, isn't it? So we've slipped behind and it's very difficult I think to introduce new themes. Electrification is a big one for Australian government and that's what they're pushing here and they've been very open to new ideas and new agenda and circularity and waste is obviously was very important was the top of the list that they were looking for for pavilion discussion. the action agenda other than methane, is really important. But we are now preparing for the next COP. I think, you know, so Australia's come with a very strong message from the Pacific and we have as well. And waste is absolutely destroying Pacific islands. There is nowhere to put it. Not only are sea level rises destroying them and relocating them and ruining culture, you know, through millennia of culture. It is, you know, destroying destroying their beauty, their economy. There's nowhere to put the waste. So it's a catastrophe for them. So we ran an event, a pre-cop event, Asia Pacific hotspot in Sydney. We have representatives from about 15 different Pacific nations come. And then we did a roundtable at Parliament House, which came up with this communique. And we anchored it very much in material use. So the statistics and the figures that we use are based on the international resources panels, material flows. strong interest to add into that water and of course food, halving food waste. So you'll see those in our aspirations and I do think to come back to your question, Australia is definitely listening and ready but of course it's the art possible and this year has been around electrification and also themes around ocean. You know, what are we going to do? Oceans are huge carbon sinks and so I think the next COP is where we're heading to really get it into that agenda. speaker-0: One more, one more. Cos I think it's following on from that. Yeah, I heard a bit of that when I was out in Australia in the summer. I guess some of the conversations we've had through the podcast series has been about the economic imperative around it. Obviously the climate imperative, that's why we're all here. But to some extent you're flagging up again that this is just a waste imperative. We need the circular economy because the islands, Pacific Islands are just, it's a deluge of stuff, particularly plastics as well. I was getting told out there. speaker-1: I think it's a very powerful agenda and I think people understand it. I remember the carbon days trying to explain what on earth carbon was. You know then we've worked that out and we have targets for it. Well everybody understands waste and we really have reached a point where it's affecting inflation, it's consumption, it's the consumption model and we have to start talking about it. And that was my point originally is that we can still get what we need. We can create whole new industries around repair remanufacture with those resources and we've got huge demand for the renewable energy transition but of course the critical minerals are locked in products and they're getting landfilled and wasted so big opportunities for new business models in economic development that can tackle product can deliver productivity and therefore inflation so it is a it is a really nice positive framework through which we can do a lot and achieve a lot of the goals that we haven't necessarily brought it all together before but it is a systems transition and we have to have that perspective. Just the speaker-0: about speaker-1: Communique, because I've seen the Communique and I think it's absolutely excellent. And you launched, did you launch it today? We did launch it today. So maybe you could tell us a few things about, know, high level what the Communique is and what it says. So I think, look, firstly, the Communique is putting our arms up in the air and saying, let's all join together. So I think by no means it's a binding pathway. We have come up with some suggestions which are resonating with a lot of people because they're based on international understandings of things. So we've leveraged Australia's framework, which I mentioned before, and we've also leveraged Akiya's zero waste agenda, which the First Lady is very supportive of. And they've got very strong recycling targets into 2050 and 2060, which will transform the way that they're operating their economy. And they're doing that through policy, through interactive exchanges, mobilising people through return and earn schemes and so forth. Australia has set a target to double our circularity rate I mentioned before to reduce our material consumption by 10 percent. So this is one of the targets we put in there to increase productivity by 30 percent, which is your recycling, it's your remanufacturing, it's your circular business models that can actually keep resources at their highest value in the economy for as long as possible. And that's a critical piece of productivity, particularly for many countries. And Australia is one of them where, you know, we need improved productivity. And that's that. relationship with inflation and then there's 80 % of removing resources from landfill because you we can't have them heading to landfill. They're full of gold and silver and silicon and all sorts of other really valuable resources and then finally halving food waste. So they're the targets that we've indicated and they do align with the International Resources Panel as I said with Turkey as targets and we are very interested in how we can connect in with policies. So we're interested in stewardship legislation and acts and how that can really help define the global economy and trade agreements. We're also promoting best practice arrangements with organisations to look into their supply chains and do what they can do from a voluntary perspective. And then also what it means for communities, which is how can they interact? So what are those technologies? that are going to be enabled for them to recycle water in their home, to participate in better recycling through more services that separate waste streams with more services they can procure instead of buying things. So what are those as a service models they can connect with? So that would be a summary of that with the last remaining pieces obviously connected with COP which is what we're looking for, NDCs, to provide infrastructure and services for Pacific Island nations particularly and those nations that need it. And the targets of course that we've set They can't be across the board. They have to depend on the progress of each economy, whether they're developing or developed nations. So we needed some leverage in there. speaker-0: Thank speaker-1: It's great to hear you talk. A lot of the stuff that we did in our podcast series, there's a lot of of crossover, of themes that are kind of similar. And so it occurs to us that having someone like you, a real leader in Australia, a global leader, that there are a number of people across this kind topic area, the community of economy community, it would be good to carry on speaker-0: the sector speaker-1: the momentum after COP and figure out how we can all kind of come together and really kind of take the, I feel there's been some progress here, like take that progress into, as you say, COP32 and beyond. How do you kind of envision? speaker-0: sound. speaker-1: Well, this podcast is going to be pretty important. It is about relationships and I mean that's why we all come here to cop a great expense and effort. We need to be connected still. We can't solve our problems all online. We do the best we can across Australia and through my organization. But being here and listening and seeing what other people are is very important. So of course, rap is another driver. The Netherlands, the Swiss, the Nordic countries, lots of countries in Asia, China. Philippines and others are moving towards product stewardship, which is really important. So connecting these dots is what we're here for. We're very involved in the UN efforts. They are prioritizing circularity. They're starting to put funds together. They're looking at how they can create districts around the world. And all these things really anchor this in real economies and real people. So we do need to build an army. And that's why I'm here. And we've been meeting with different organizations that we can. support and it's not going to be it's not about our way or the highway at all it's about how can we sort of come up with things that will be palatable and acceptable and a lot of this as it always is industry and civil society absolutely need to be involved and we need to be able to prove the business case and I think this is what's always holding things back and there's been a lot of detail I'm sure you've done interviews on this as well around finance yeah we are seeing a surge in investment in circularity is still a long way off where we want to be but it's typically in the developed nations not the developing nations so a lot of work really has to be done there more support for those developing nations to get infrastructure and systems that can support that. you be at the Istanbul platform launch tomorrow? I it's tomorrow. I was really hoping to be but unfortunately I'm on a plane back down London. we were invited to be there and obviously we're working with Neil Coe who's been an architect of that program and so we wish them all the best. We need more of that. Yeah. Well, thanks Lisa. it's been amazing talking to you. We should carry on the conversation. Let's do it. Yeah, well, we're gonna keep working. So come on the journey with us. Thanks Lisa.