Latest / Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews / Dr. Bobby Duke on Why the Ancient Manuscripts Still Matter Today

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Dr. Bobby Duke on Why the Ancient Manuscripts Still Matter Today · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

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  Speaker 1: Life Audio, Doctor Duke, thanks for joining me.
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  Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you for having me, Michael.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Bobby Duke, chief curatorial officer at the Museum of
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  Speaker 1: the Bible in Washington, DC, which has an incredible new
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  Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit, Doctor Duke, like I was telling
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  Speaker 1: you before we started here, I visited the Museum of
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  Speaker 1: the Bible last fall. I was blown away, just blown
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  Speaker 1: away by everything there. I could have spent weeks there.
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  Speaker 1: I had like three hours. You know, That's how it
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  Speaker 1: usually is with people at museums. Unfortunately for me, I
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  Speaker 1: did not get to see this Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit.
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  Speaker 1: It opened after I left, but I'm looking forward maybe
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  Speaker 1: to seeing it in the future. Give us a preview
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  Speaker 1: of what this Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit is, and while
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  Speaker 1: you're at it, tell us the significance of the Dead
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  Speaker 1: Sea Scrolls.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, thank you Michael for asking about our current
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  Speaker 2: special exhibit that is opened in November of twenty twenty
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  Speaker 2: five and will be open until September after Labor Day
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  Speaker 2: of twenty six. So we have an extensive exhibit. This
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  Speaker 2: is an exhibit that was put together by the Israel
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  Speaker 2: Antiquities Authority and they are actually traveling it around North America.
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  Speaker 2: So right before it came to us, it was at
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  Speaker 2: the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library at Simi Valley, California, and
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  Speaker 2: then it came to us, and then it'll travel to
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  Speaker 2: a couple other spots in North America. Because it is
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  Speaker 2: the seventy fifth anniversary tour of the Dead Sea Scrolls
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  Speaker 2: that were found in the late nineteen forties, the exhibit
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  Speaker 2: itself tells much more than just the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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  Speaker 2: It really is an entire exhibit about what we call
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  Speaker 2: Second Temple Judaism to give us a sense of what
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  Speaker 2: life was like two thousand years ago. That arguably the
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  Speaker 2: most significant archaeological discovery of that era from that era
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  Speaker 2: was the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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  Speaker 1: Larry to press release here for just to kind of
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  Speaker 1: sum up what's going on there, It says the Dead
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  Speaker 1: Sea Scrolls artifacture of the oldest known copies of Biblical
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  Speaker 1: text and are one of the greatest archaeological finds of
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  Speaker 1: our lifetime. Doctor Dug's my understanding that when the Dead
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  Speaker 1: Sea Scrolls were discovered, some skeptics around the world, some
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  Speaker 1: skeptics of the Bible, expected the contents to differ from
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  Speaker 1: what we had at the time and what we still have.
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  Speaker 1: But when scholars, of course started looking at what the
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  Speaker 1: Dead Sea scrolls contained, it was largely what we already
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  Speaker 1: had correct correct well.
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  Speaker 2: There were basically, if you think, kind of three groupings
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  Speaker 2: of Biblical texts or of texts that were found among
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  Speaker 2: the deadsy scrolls. The Biblical texts, the ones that were
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  Speaker 2: texts that were already known but were not in the Bible.
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  Speaker 2: And then there were documents that are often labeled as
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  Speaker 2: sectarian documents. These are ones that were not known before
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  Speaker 2: in the history of literature and were connected to that
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  Speaker 2: group at Kumran where the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered.
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  Speaker 2: But as you're right, the Biblical text were the first
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  Speaker 2: wave of research, simply because you had something to compare
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  Speaker 2: to that we already knew before the scrolls were found.
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  Speaker 2: Our earliest Biblical texts were what are called the Massoretic
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  Speaker 2: texts from right around one thousand a d. Give or
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  Speaker 2: take fifty or one hundred years either side of a
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  Speaker 2: thousand and eight, whereas the Dead Sya scroll some of
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  Speaker 2: them are dated back to the second even third century BC,
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  Speaker 2: so over one thousand years earlier than our best text
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  Speaker 2: before nineteen forty seven, and as you were saying, the
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  Speaker 2: thought was what kind of new revelations and or are
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  Speaker 2: just shocking scandals that we're going to find when we
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  Speaker 2: look into these texts, and in general, there was a
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  Speaker 2: lot of fidelity between what we have from two thousand
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  Speaker 2: years ago and what we can compare it to with
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  Speaker 2: the Masterotic text from a thousand years ago. There are
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  Speaker 2: some variants in any good modern English study Bible. You'll
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  Speaker 2: see in your notes in the margins it'll say maybe
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  Speaker 2: Dead Sea Scrolls read or Kumron reads. But if you actually,
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  Speaker 2: as a reader of an English Bible, look at all
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  Speaker 2: those notes and start asking yourself how significant is this,
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  Speaker 2: you're going to realize that most of them are incredibly minor. So, yes,
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  Speaker 2: the Dead Sea Scrolls give us a lot of confidence
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  Speaker 2: in the Biblical text.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nothing in of course, the deadsy Scrolls is
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  Speaker 1: the Old Testament, but when we're talking about the New
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  Speaker 1: Testament in terms of vary instances, there's nothing that says
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  Speaker 1: that changes doctrine. And I think that's what what was
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  Speaker 1: Scholars often said, there's nothing that changes doctrine. Would you
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  Speaker 1: agree that studying the Deadsia Scrolls can kind of strengthen
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  Speaker 1: the faith of Bible readers. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So again I can only speak for myself, but as
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  Speaker 2: a scholar of Deadzi scrolls, I did my phdt UCLA
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  Speaker 2: in the scrolls, worked on some of the Aramaic non
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  Speaker 2: Biblical documents. But my study of the scrolls, particularly the
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  Speaker 2: Biblical scrolls, has only given me more confidence in the
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  Speaker 2: Bible that I read. And again it even gives me
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  Speaker 2: more confidence for those who haven't had the ability to
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  Speaker 2: study Hebrew like I, who are reading their English. You
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  Speaker 2: can trust your English Bibles. And it goes back to
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  Speaker 2: these manuscripts that again are over two thousand years old.
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  Speaker 1: And this of course is at the museum in the
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  Speaker 1: Bible through when through September through September.
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  Speaker 2: You have it for another nine months, and it is
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  Speaker 2: one where it is truly stunning to be able to
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  Speaker 2: look at the Biblical text. And currently we're going to
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  Speaker 2: have three waves of text between when it opened in
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  Speaker 2: November and September. Dead Sea scroll fragments and text are
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  Speaker 2: only allowed to be outside of Israel for three months
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  Speaker 2: at a time preservation reasons, so we will get during
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  Speaker 2: our nine and a half month exhibit three different sets
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  Speaker 2: of eight documents, and then when they go back to Israel,
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  Speaker 2: they have to hibernate for five years in climate controlled
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  Speaker 2: and light controlled vaults, just to make sure fifty one hundred,
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  Speaker 2: two hundred years from now scholars and the world still
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  Speaker 2: have access to these texts that are truly fragile.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk about a couple of other parts of the exhibit.
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  Speaker 1: One is called them. How can't I pronounce this? Maybe
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  Speaker 1: you can hit me out the Magdala tech, the Mgdala's
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  Speaker 1: stone m A g da la mcdalas stone.
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  Speaker 2: What is that? So? The Magdala stone and the word
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  Speaker 2: Magdala is the city of Magdala on the western shore
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  Speaker 2: of the Sea of Galilee. We are familiar with this
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  Speaker 2: from reading the New Testament. It is the hometown of
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  Speaker 2: Mary Magdalen. I see you was from Magdala. And in
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  Speaker 2: a decade or more ago, they were doing a construction
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  Speaker 2: project at this side of Magdala. They were building a
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  Speaker 2: Catholic retreat center and guesthouse. And during the construction they
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  Speaker 2: hit the floor of a first century synagogue. Well, in Israel,
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  Speaker 2: whenever you have a building project and you hit archaeology,
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  Speaker 2: your building project gets sidelined until you know what is
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  Speaker 2: actually under the ground there, and this first Satry synagogue
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  Speaker 2: has now actually been built into the architecture of the
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  Speaker 2: guest house, so it is still there today. You can
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  Speaker 2: go to this first century synagogue. In the middle of
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  Speaker 2: that excavation, they found this limestone table roughly say two
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  Speaker 2: feet by three feet, carved and decorated with imagery from
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  Speaker 2: the Temple in Jerusalem. So someone took their knowledge of
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  Speaker 2: the Temple in Jerusalem, came up to the Sea of
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  Speaker 2: Galley carved this limestone table that is the perfect size
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  Speaker 2: for rolling out tourus scrolls. Again we don't know wasn't
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  Speaker 2: used for rolling out tourist rolls, but it was found
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  Speaker 2: right in the center of the synagogue and it was
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  Speaker 2: one that would be perfect on Shabbat on Sabbath to
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  Speaker 2: roll out tourist scrolls. And we actually have the original
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  Speaker 2: here at the museum. Several weeks ago we had one
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  Speaker 2: of the excavators from Magdala here and just was not
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  Speaker 2: a where that we had the original, and she said, wow,
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  Speaker 2: the the fact simile you have there is truly one
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  Speaker 2: of the best I've ever seen. And I had to
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  Speaker 2: pause her talk and say, we actually have the original
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  Speaker 2: let's let's briefly talk about other.
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  Speaker 1: Parts of the museum. There's a there's When I was there,
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  Speaker 1: I one of the things that I remember and enjoyed
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  Speaker 1: looking at was this old church or it's it's a
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  Speaker 1: I forgot what it begins with an M. You're gonna
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  Speaker 1: have to really help me here for this one. What
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  Speaker 1: was that though? It's it's uh, it's h. It not
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  Speaker 1: only has uh biblical archaeology archeological significance, but also has
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  Speaker 1: theological significance as well. Tell us about.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely so. It's called the Meguido mosaic. Mosaic are these
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  Speaker 2: floors of churches from I mean the Greco Roman period
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  Speaker 2: all the way up through the Byzantine period where you
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  Speaker 2: use little pieces of glass and or stone to create
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  Speaker 2: motiffs or images or depictions on the floor. Well, like
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  Speaker 2: I said earlier, there was a construction project at a
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  Speaker 2: prison in Israel called the Meguido Prison, just down the
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  Speaker 2: road from Tel Meguido, which is most people see as
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  Speaker 2: the site of Armageddon. But inside this prison they were
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  Speaker 2: doing construction project. While doing the project, they hit this
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  Speaker 2: mosaic floor. Construction project stops. You excavate this floor and
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  Speaker 2: when it was all said and done, archaeologists date this
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  Speaker 2: floor to about two thirty a d. So to put
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  Speaker 2: that in context, that's one hundred years before Constantine. That's
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  Speaker 2: one hundred years before the Nicene Creed. And why that's
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  Speaker 2: significant is that window of say the first century up
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  Speaker 2: until Constantine can often be viewed by scholars as a
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  Speaker 2: free for all in Christian theology, a free for all
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  Speaker 2: in Christian practice. But this mosaic floor from our earliest
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  Speaker 2: church ever discovered has perfect theology. It shows them practicing
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  Speaker 2: the Eucharist, and it even mentions a centurion, a workman,
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  Speaker 2: and five women in the inscription on the floor. So
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  Speaker 2: we get this sense of what Paul was talking about
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  Speaker 2: when he said, here there is no Greek or Jews,
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  Speaker 2: slave or free, male or female, but we're all want
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  Speaker 2: in Christ. And the most significant piece, as you were
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  Speaker 2: mentioning theologically on one of the inscriptions, it mentions a
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  Speaker 2: woman named Aceptus who's to be honored because she gave
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  Speaker 2: the table to the honor of the God Jesus Christ.
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  Speaker 2: So we have the earliest statement anywhere outside of scripture
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  Speaker 2: of the divinity of Jesus Christ, one hundred years before
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  Speaker 2: you actually have things like the Nicene Creede, perfect Christian
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  Speaker 2: Orthodox theology right here on this mosaic floor. And as
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  Speaker 2: I was mentioning you before we went live, there's only
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  Speaker 2: one place in the world where you can see the
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  Speaker 2: oldest church ever discovered and our oldest pieces of scripture
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  Speaker 2: ever to suvered, and that's your Museum of the Bible.
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  Speaker 1: Let's have before we close, let's just give people on an
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  Speaker 1: overview of the museum and the Bible. We've talked about
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  Speaker 1: some specific parts of it. One thing that I was
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  Speaker 1: really impressed by Doctor Duke when I went there is
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  Speaker 1: that this is not an old museum. It's a new museum,
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  Speaker 1: of course, opened in the past what decades to fifteen
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  Speaker 1: years or so. Were covering up on our tenth anniversary
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  Speaker 1: with synth anniversary. Okay, I was close there. But it's
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  Speaker 1: not just old stuff. In fact, there's lots of high
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  Speaker 1: tech displays. It's very family friendly, kid friendly. You could
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  Speaker 1: take a child there, a team there and they're going
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  Speaker 1: to have a good time. What do you want people
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  Speaker 1: to know about the Museum of the Bible, who might
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  Speaker 1: who have never been there, who might be wondering what
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  Speaker 1: it is? Yeah, go ahead, Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: No, so I would say that even at the heart
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  Speaker 2: of our mission is that really we want to display
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  Speaker 2: how the Bible has been a transformative force in history,
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  Speaker 2: and through all of our exhibits, whether they be our
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  Speaker 2: History floor that walks you from our earliest knowledge of
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  Speaker 2: scripture all the way up to even we have one
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  Speaker 2: displayed the very first iPhone that ever downloaded the U
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  Speaker 2: version app. I mean, so we have this whole sweep
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  Speaker 2: of history, but we have other floors to focus on
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  Speaker 2: the stories of the Bible. So we have a Hebrew
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  Speaker 2: Bible interactive walkthrough in twenty minutes, particularly if you have
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  Speaker 2: family or church communities or others they'd struggle with biblical literacy,
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  Speaker 2: in twenty minutes, you can go through this Hebrew Bible
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  Speaker 2: experience and understand the whole backbone of the Old Testament.
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  Speaker 2: We have, as you said, a children's gallery down on
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  Speaker 2: our first floor that actually has biblical themes for children
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  Speaker 2: just to play, because we know, particularly when we have
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  Speaker 2: families that have little kids and older, just have a
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  Speaker 2: place to kind of relax for a bit and play
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  Speaker 2: with kids in a biblical friendly environment is fantastic. So
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  Speaker 2: I would say, from the history of the Bible to
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  Speaker 2: the stories of the Bible and ultimately the impact of
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  Speaker 2: the Bible. We have a whole floor dedicated to how
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  Speaker 2: the Bible has impacted art, literature, science. So this is
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  Speaker 2: a one stop shop to get the sense of why
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  Speaker 2: is the Bible interesting, why is the Bible important? And
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  Speaker 2: why is the Bible something that everyone needs to know about.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like I said, you could spend weeks in there.
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  Speaker 1: Any good museum you can say that about, and you
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  Speaker 1: can spend weeks in the Museum of the Bible if
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  Speaker 1: you want to. But you can also just get a
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  Speaker 1: through three hour overview if you just have that amount
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  Speaker 1: of time. But it's well worth a visit, family friendly, enjoyable,
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  Speaker 1: it's awesome. I highly encourage people to check it out.
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  Speaker 1: It's in Washington, DC, and this exhibit, the Dead Sea Scrolls,
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  Speaker 1: runs through September. Is that right?
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  Speaker 2: That is correct?
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  Speaker 1: All right, Doctor Duke, thanks so much, Thank.
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  Speaker 2: You so much, Michael, and again, welcome to you and
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  Speaker 2: anyone else who wants to come to the Dead Sea
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  Speaker 2: Squirrells Exhibit.
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  Speaker 1: Man, if you like today's episode, please subscribe and leave
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  Speaker 3: the show. A big thanks to the team at life
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  Speaker 1: See you next time.