Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / ADHD and Neurodiversity Exam Support for Financial Planning from Redmill Advance & Neurosparks

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ADHD and Neurodiversity Exam Support for Financial Planning from Redmill Advance & Neurosparks · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: And today we welcome back David Tay from Red Mill Advance, and he's brought Daniel Armitage with him today.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they are going to talk about neurodiversity within financial planning and financial services as a whole.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to look at how this impacts talent, how it impacts management, and also how it's going to impact the future of your clients.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, full training around neurodiversity isn't something that stretches across financial services, which is why Red Mill Advance have put some of the most amazing training in place.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And today you're going to learn exactly what that is.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to love this episode.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: David, welcome back to the Financial Plan Live podcast.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's always brilliant to have our main sponsor here, Redmill Advance.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very good, Sam.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be back.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a great venue for today as well.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, we put out all the stops.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're in Clifton.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking for a venue that's got a nice kitchen as well because we're playing around with the idea of a weekend edition of the podcast.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I want it to feel like we're having coffees and croissants over breakfast and a conversation about products and services.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like a new angle for me.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we're checking out all these lovely uh apartments and buildings in Clifton with some beautiful views over the harbour, etc.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So fingers crossed, we might use this one, we might not, but we'll see how it goes.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's very cool.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Who have you bought today?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I have brought Dan Armitage, who is one of our trainers, but also a neurodiversity expert.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I should really let Dan introduce himself.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Dan, far away.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so uh I'm the CEO and co-founder of Neurosparks Business Solutions.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I founded that business with my mum uh three years ago, actually this week.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we support neurodivergent talent in the workplace, and also we support um employers to actually understand neurodiversity, the strengths that it brings, but also some of the challenges as well to be able to support people to live their true authentic selves within the workplace.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love that.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And Dan, you know, I've I've interviewed people on the podcast that have gone through the red mill training and have actually had that neurodiverse support.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's second to none.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was Dan as well, wasn't it, from St.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place who came on an episode?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he really, really did sing the praises, and it sounds like he's flourishing within financial planning now.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So what we're saying here is that whether you have some learning struggles or you are neurodiverse, doesn't mean you can't come into financial planning and be a success.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think today is all about how you do provide training and support and development for those people to make sure they're not alienated, but also as well, what can firms do to ensure that they are providing that training for their staff?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And do they truly fully understand if their workforce are neurotypical or neurodiverse?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I myself have been diagnosed with ADHD, so I'm incredibly interested in this because a lot of the people that I work with, I really value people who are on the spectrum.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because for me, it's like it is like um once I got past the diagnosis myself personally, where I felt really kind of almost a little bit sad, like I'd lost something, and I was kind of regretting my past and everything as well, and all these decisions I made, and it was like it was really sad.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but now I've kind of gotten over that and I've realized that there are parts of me that are never gonna be um never gonna be changed, and that I need other people to help me so I can focus on the bits that I'm really good at.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: That was when I went, oh, all that conversation about superpower is true.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: It definitely is, and I think I mean, like yourself, I've got ADHD.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been blessed with the combined type.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um you've got hyperactive, you've got inattentive, which is most common in women and girls, and then you've got combined.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've also got dyslexia and dyscalculea as well.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for those um listening that don't know what dyscalculea is, it's literally dyslexia, but for numbers.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so hopefully we'll be able to touch upon some of that as well and sort of demystify some of the things around neurodiversity in the workplace because we definitely need it because what it brings to the workplace.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know what's amazing about that as well, Sam.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So Dan obviously is one of our trainers and he's also a qualified financial planner.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it trains into you know our um our employers, our um clients rather.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you think about that, you know, various different parts of uh Dan's neurodiversities around what he's talking about there, and he is absolutely amazing at training.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, what it allows us to do is for those that we identify when we're delivering training that are struggling, we have an absolute expert that we can uh face into those particular individuals.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: So he's an absolute expert, and it's amazing to have him on the podcast and part of the team, I have to say.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: How long did you spend in financial planning?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Did you work as a financial planner?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was in financial services since the age of 18, all the way, and I was a regulated advisor from 2010 till 2020.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So just before COVID, well, as COVID hit, really.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you what, let's just hit this one first of all, then.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you worked in financial planning.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um not neurotypical, very neurodiverse.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of different things as you explained.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just tell us about your experience working in the financial planning profession with some of those challenges.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: What was it like then compared to what it's like now and what have you learned along the way?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can be it can be really, really overwhelming.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I didn't finish college.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: My education was, you know, I remember sat there.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was always very, very creative.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I always knew that I wanted to go into the arts.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I kind of fell into financial services because I needed a job.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my ex-wife's anti was the branch director of a bank, and she said, Oh, we've got a counterposition here, you know, come and come and interview it and see where we can get to.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I did.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And because of my dyscalculia, I was great at transposing numbers, which isn't very good when you're dealing with cash and you're on the till and you're having to balance your till daily.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: But what they recognized in me was you've mentioned superpower, but that gift, I might not be great at managing money in terms of transposing figures, but what I'm really good at is identifying people's problems and helping them to find solutions.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I climbed the career ladder really quickly.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, as all my friends were coming out of university, I was a bank manager at 21, managed three different branches of uh of a bank, and then basically red tape, got bored, uh, shock.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I went across to regulated financial planning because I felt like I could I could do more, make more of an impact for them clients.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I was quite unique in my style of of dealing with clients, and the paperwork was always really important.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's still really, really the number one thing.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, it's how do we help people with their hopes, dreams, and aspirations, helping them and letting them borrow what I see so that we can help them on their financial planning journey.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and making sure that if there are any roadblocks along the way, that we actually are able to deal with them as they come up.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've got to say though, like in those early stages, um, did you know that you were neurodiverse?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Did you did you yeah?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: You knew it, okay.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And those years ago, not that long ago, 2010 onwards, right, when you were working in that space, but was it set up to be able to support somebody like you?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was quite fortunate.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I did all of my exams with the CII um and I sent them all of my diagnostic reports, um, and they basically said, Okay, Dan, what support do you need from us to be able to make sure that you can do what you need to do?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I find that with my dyslexia, I have a processing delay.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I also have um an issue with my short-term memory.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm in the 99th percentile of the population when it comes to short-term memory, which isn't a good thing.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually the bottom 1%.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So my short-term memory is that if I read a textbook, for example, I will read it 10 times and it just won't go in, it just will not settle.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to find different ways of actually learning.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for me, mind maps are great.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I actually at one point used to just record me reading all of the text and like the study guides and then listen to them back and stuff like that.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the good things when it comes to Red Mill because it's a blended learning approach, it kind of hits all different learning styles.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you've got your reading, you've got your watching your videos, you've got your quizzes, that kind of stuff.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, my job as a trainer is to help people take this really complex information and boil it down into the form, simplest form where they retain that knowledge.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because when we're training financial planners, it's not about, you know, just regurgitating the actual text or the regulation or keeping up with stuff.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually remembering that to put that in place for clients, not only now, but going forward as well.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's that's the real art of being a neurodivergent trainer to be able to help and support other people who are neurodivergent.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll understand this, Sam.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know when you're speaking to it's like a little sixth sense.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know when you're speaking to someone that is neurodivergent, and it's like my vibe, my tribe.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's let's take a step back now and let's go, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Are we all good?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you understand stuff?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: My vibe, my tribe.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm stealing that.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely stealing it.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: But why is it so important at the moment that financial services companies should actually consider neurodiversity when it comes to training and development, David?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, look, I think um it's critical.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think the great thing, Sam, is that you know, these topics are being spoken about now.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you go back, I don't know, five, ten years ago, these conversations weren't really happening with employers, but they are now, and actually, we're in a world where I think employers are looking at kind of neurodiversity, they're taking it very seriously, they're understanding how important it is to identify those within their business that are maybe neurodivergent.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that is critical, it's critical for a number of reasons, really.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you know, if you can identify individuals in your business um who are neurodivergent, then it allows you to make those reasonable adjustments, it allows you to understand their strengths, you know, how you actually um what you have to do for them in the workplace.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, certainly from a training and development perspective, Dan mentioned it, you know, our materials are designed that there are multiple assets in there.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, there's reading material there and videos and e-learning, you know, so there's all of these different assets that individuals can utilize.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've got any particular learning style, you can lean on the reading or the videos or you know, the e-learning, the testing, etc.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's even little things from a learning and development perspective that you have to think of.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we make all our material, for example, you can print it all.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: We understand that some people may want to print it on, you know, like blue backgrounds.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: If that makes life easier for reading it, we allow them to do that.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not particularly common across all learning and development providers, you know, in terms of making all your materials freely downloadable because there's obviously a risk there around IP, but actually we understand that that's important, particularly for those that you know need to do that and are perhaps neurodivergent.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I think, Luke, you know, these conversations are happening more frequent frequently.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're here talking about it today.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Employers understand how important this is to identify it, to make those reasonable adjustments in the workplace, and ultimately support the people that have, you know, that are neurodivergent.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think the second part actually, as well, is that um it's important to empower managers with the right level of training.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: So help them understand neuroinclusion and actually how to identify you know, individuals, you know, particularly line managers that are dealing with people who have whatever it may be, ADHD is a is a great example.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um and equally from our perspective, from a learning and development perspective, we understand how important that is.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we have a digital range of neuroinclusion, you know, management training.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: We have a variety of uh neurodiversity um digital training.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: We do a lot more than that, right?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we help employers, we take that training into the workplace.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: We'll probably touch on that a little bit later and in a little bit more detail and what that looks like.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, we have dans in the business who are experts in these markets, which actually really helps us because we have dans to look at our content and make sure it's ticking the right boxes and you know it's truly going to help people that are utilizing that content at the other end that perhaps are neurodivergent.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, Dan, when you work with firms and learners, what are the most common ways neurodivergent people are misunderstood in training or exams or in like workplace development?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's look at the ways they're misunderstood.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the key challenges that a lot of employers do struggle when it comes to neurodiversity in the workplace or or any di invisible disability is the fact that it is invisible.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like that if you have a mobility impairment um, you know, which requires a wheelchair, people can see that, you know.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that we're all as different on the inside as we are on the outside when we're communicating with each other and also as a management team or with along with our peers, when we do communicate with people, we expect people to understand exactly what we're saying because that's from our point of view in our world.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that got me incredibly curious about myself, knowing that I was different, was how do I communicate with myself internally and how do I communicate with the outside world?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that sort of set me on my journey then to discover, you know, neurolinguistic programming, you know, my master NLP practitioner and an integral admin movement therapist.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: But then last year I decided, you know what?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go to university, I'm gonna prove to no one but myself that I can do this.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I did a PG cert in neurodiversity, which is a level seven, and it was probably the first time in my life that I can I thought, you know what, I can study, I can do this, and all of this time it's just a case of a question of how.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And through the work that I do with Redmill and and delegates and students, that's what it is.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's about empowering the future generations of financial planners, helping them to support themselves with whatever that looks like in terms of their learning journey and make it bespoke to them.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you look at managers and you'll look at supervisors within financial organizations, obviously managers have a lot of KPIs, you know, they've got a lot of stuff on their plate.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: And when somebody is struggling and they might be failing multiple exams, you know, they may potentially see that as a performance issue, which will then then take them down the disciplinary route and potentially even go, I'm sorry, you know, we've paid for three exams and we can't really do more.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: What I would implore those managers to do is just separate those learning issues from the person.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because if they just do that extra questioning, going, you know, is there anything we can do extra?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've noticed on a couple of your emails that there are certain words that you're really struggling to spell.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, have you considered, you know, you might be dyslexic, or have you considered actually you're always transposing numbers?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something else there?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and just having that curiosity from a manager's point of view will really actually break those barriers down because it's probably then that that member of staff, that advisor, will turn around and go, Well, actually, yeah, I'm I am waiting for a dyslexia diagnostics, or I'm on the pathway, which is five years where I am locally, to get an ADHD diagnosis.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think once you're able to do that, it's not a case of, well, what do we need to do to support you?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because that individual, they've always been neurodivergent.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: You are born neurodivergent, you know nothing else apart from that.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like saying, you know, to somebody who is neurodivergent, well, what is it like to be neurotypical?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you were neurotypical, what would you need?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just virtually impossible to say.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Questions like, how does it affect you day to day?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: What does that feel like?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like day to day for you?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can start to go, okay, well, if you're struggling with prioritization, you struggle with planning, you struggle with time management, let's look at strategies on how we can address that.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it might be someone who's autistic, they have communication or social difficulties, or they might have light sensitivity.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, those things are, you know, they are coachable.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also there's a big thing that employees can do to support that as well.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think it starts with awareness as well, Sam.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's about actually making employers aware of the broad spectrum of um these types of things, you know, like light sensitivity is a great example, and just you know, things that employers can do to really make those, as I said earlier, reasonable adjustments.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we had a spotlight in quarter one this year, um, so January, February, March on that was a neurodiversity spotlight.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we ran it was 26 live sessions over that quarter in terms of um bringing that awareness um into the classroom.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: So actually, Dan ran them.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and as I say, it was 26 live sessions that's available to kind of all our all our clients, um, and it's about bringing that awareness, you know, really helping those managers and those senior leaders understand the broad range of these things and actually the types of things they can do, the cues they can look for, the types of things they can do to really support their employees.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, sorry for interrupting this episode, but I just wanted to let you know that it's sponsored by Red Mill Advance.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're the UK's leading provider of interactive e-learning courses, specifically for the financial advice sector.
• 17:16
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• 17:32
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• 17:46
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• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place, Quilter, PLC, Hascot Lloyd, Foster Lenovo and DeVere trust Redmill to keep their advisors and wider teams competent, compliant, and at the top of their game.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, to book a free demo, get yourself to redmilladvance.com and they'll do the rest.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we're seeing a lot of now is people in later life are actually being diagnosed with being neurodivergent, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's happening more and more, and everyone's like, oh god, another person with ADHD, but it's not.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like people are just there's so much more awareness around it now.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's more openness about it, and people are starting to look at themselves and go, that's me, that's the pattern.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we're starting to see more people saying it.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's important, isn't it, that firms are aware of this so they are able to recognize but also offer solutions to these individuals because otherwise, historically, it would have gone down the route of you're anughty boy totally.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or you're an naughty girl.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're being disruptive.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if I look back on my life and I think to myself, God, if I was going through school, I turned up every single day to school.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: I loved football, loved sport, loved art, loved creativity, really enjoyed history and learning about things, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: But asked me to do some homework, ask me to do some coursework, yeah, ask me not to joke around with people in the in in the you know in the classroom.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I struggled and I'd seen my, I'd find myself sat outside the headmasters again, thinking, why am I here?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not a bad person.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing this on purpose.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why am I here?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: It took just so long to recognise that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't do my qualifications.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I would not, you know, I don't know.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Test, I've got a very high, I got a really good high IQ.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: But in respect of actually doing the work, near on impossible for me.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was so, so hard.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at that now and I think, God, in the workplace, people are just be pushed it aside.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not following our path, you're not following the way that we do things, therefore, you know, you're a bad person.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get you down a disciplinary route.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: All that's going to create is just stress for people, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: For the employer, the manager, and the employee, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you if you look at um, so for example, Neurospark.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we we have uh 15 members of staff, 14 of us are neurodivergent, you know.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we have turned the workplace on its on its head, really, because we've turned the the neurodivergent into the majority rather than the minority.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and we cater for all staff because we've got autism, ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've got we've got the broad spectrum.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because we support neurodivergent individuals, employees, and and self-employed individuals, obviously it's only natural that we support our staff.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we have things like hybrid working, you know, you work the hours, as long as you do them over the week, you need to be able to do them.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: But also things like, you know, we have well-being cards as well.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So people who are neurodivergent will suffer from burnout, will suffer from overwhelming.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: You might identify with this yourself.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's almost like a knife edge.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because ADHD, it's a neuroscience, biological, chemical issue, it's not about behavior.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's about the lack of uptake of dopamine, you know, uh, and the interaction of uh a neurotransmitter called neuropinephrine and serotonin.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, once you are aware of that, and once you start to put things in place as an individual, that's only really when you can start to understand yourself.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because that naughty schoolboy that you mentioned is actually one of only three types of ADHD, that hyperactive type.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Most women and girls, unfortunately, are diagnosed with the inattentive type.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that is very daydreamy, no hyperactivity at all, issues with procrastination, prioritization, but actually that peaks and troughs around hormones.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, perimenopause and menopause, what we're finding now, especially in the industry, is that women are starting to wake up and go, this just isn't me.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Things that I could do a couple of months ago, I'm really, really struggling with.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we're getting amazing advisors.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And as we know, the industry is already short of women, amazing women and trans men in the industry.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, those peaks and troughs in hormones will go, I can't do my job anymore.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, it's not them, it's their imbalance of hormones and how it relates to the neurochemistry.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where we need to, as a collective.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: industry do more for for for women.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really important subject.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Really important subject.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, again, from Red Mill's perspective, you know, we take that type of learning to employers because it is very important.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: So if you look at our range of training and development, yes, it's about we're well known for our exam training in the market and delivering those large-scale academies.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: But the digital training that we have extends far beyond that is well-being and and it's around this type of important um topics.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's completely accessible.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know anybody that's accessing within these employers our um content can access this type of digital training but we take it into the the classroom as well and we're actually talking about this stuff.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And again it comes back to awareness.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know something else actually you were talking about there Dan and I think this is a great thing about neurodiversity is that you were talking about you've got a later life diagnosis Sam ADHD.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And but because we are talking about these subjects now diagnosis is happening much earlier and you know there's a real example here in my life look I have uh two two kids well sorry I have three kids rather but two of them are neurodivergent and my little girl who's eight um has been through um a full process to be diagnosed she's um H and I so she's combined type and my son is actually undergoing um the process of you know being assessed at the moment as well so it's been a really it's been an incredible journey because it's really helped me understand um you know ADHD uh these uh neurodiverse you know in children what it actually means and you were talking about you know the naughty school kid I think 10 years ago you probably would have looked at Isla uh my daughter and you would have gone gosh she's naughty you know she's cartwheeling about the place she's interrupting every conversation she's nonstop she won't sit still in class it's disrupting the rest of the class but actually now we've gone through that process and actually you know we have a plan in place and um and it's working extremely well for her.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: So imagine that in later life she stands a much better chance you know of understanding herself understanding how best to manage her ADHD and of course we understand that and I think that's one of the really amazing things about talking about this stuff is that kids are being diagnosed earlier.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's giving them the tools the resources to carry into adult life which is really important and and as much as later life diagnosis of course is amazing Sam because it helps you in terms of understanding your ADHD I'm sure probably probably if that had happened much earlier it might have you know given you the tools at an earlier age to maybe cope with it a little bit better.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: I also think as well Sam what you what you mentioned earlier when you got your diagnosis and it was almost like relief and grief at the same time if you can imagine if you're an employer and then all of a sudden you know one of your advisors or members of staff gets yes you know what you've always suspected you know you're not some outcast actually there's a label for this which is ADHD or it might be autism whatever actually there's a bit of a relief there isn't there because it's like oh thank God for that yeah but also then you go that grief and that that turmoil and gone well if I had known about this when I was younger you know my life might have been completely different.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I take a lot of my my clients um that I speak to through you know almost grief counselling to the point of actually acceptance and being able to embrace that and then move that on because people don't understand how much of a psychological effect that can have on people.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there are schools of thought that that neurodiversity it can be impacted by trauma and things like that as a child and there's all that kind of stuff.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And actually just slightly off topic one of the main reasons why I'm now doing a a master's in business psychology is because of this.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want to know more about how people can actually really understand the workplace you know how does the learning and development environment really psychologically impact people because ultimately that that branch manager of mine when I was 18 if if she'd have turned around and said Dan you can't make till balance you you're gonna have to go.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't be sat here today you know but it's the tenacity it's the uh the gumption that we have to actually not accept anything other than I'm I'm reaching for the stars you know I'm going for the moon and if I hit the stars fantastic you know but nothing's gonna hold me back and it's that resilience that people who are neurodivergent they have got that and there are some industries like the UK Security Services for example they understand this higher than any other company or industry in the UK because they've understood this probably about 30 40 years ago that people with autism and people with dyslexia they can analyse vast arrays of data they can spot needles in haystack industries like financial services are only just starting to catch on to this now.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you know investment analysts business analysts you've got advisors they're fantastic ADHD fantastic for advisors because they're constantly going out dopamine every time they speak to somebody networking they're going out they're helping people they're putting solutions in place dopamine dopamine dopamine brilliant you know use that as as advisory firms need to really understand that and actually when they are supported people who are neurodivergent they're 38 to 144% more productive than their neurotypical beers you know there's a flip side to that coin though and and I've seen it so um I think that those are the absolute brilliant parts of neurodiverse conditions ADHD you know that hyper focus and you're right networking dopamine hit dopamine hit you know carrying on at 100 miles an hour nonstop but the flip side to that coin and this is where awareness is really important and good training around um neurodiversity is that when that happens the other side of that is a little bit of burnout so I'll give you a real example of this um in terms of our R06 um program that we run that involves the uh case studies come out and we write a case study analysis so it's this 90 page you know real detailed document around the case studies in terms of what's potentially likely to come up in the exam and how to approach it and all that kind of stuff.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know years ago we had someone who um uh was neurodiverse and honestly he was amazing I've never seen anybody like attack an analysis like he did it came out he was focused he literally sat for 20 hours nonstop writing this thing and the following day we'd have this amazing analysis and we were ahead of all our competition and it was out and it was brilliant but he needed a day after that just to completely decompress because it was that high followed by that low.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where again um good you know good training and development when we're bringing that into the classroom or we're bringing that digitally to our clients it helps them be aware of that be aware of the bad as well as a good and actually understand how to manage that.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's important.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the key things is understanding how to manage it within the workplace the expectation is somebody has to hit their targets right.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: But the byproduct of that is somebody could be burning themselves out if they're operating in a way that isn't uh the business isn't or the people the manager isn't aware that that person does need to uh recoup rest and recharge I'm exactly the same once I'm you know I can go out and I can do this for I used to do eight podcasts in a day.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh the day after I was fried but yet my diary was rammed because my expectation was to fill that diary because I I wanted to make sure it didn't look like I was failing or something.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: I had to do the next day and do it just as hard and in the end it just built up and built up and built up just constantly anxious about it all.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was like I could never really give myself that space and my wife even tells me now like you know if you go away and you do something like this the next day that needs to be less work because you need to recharge.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it is it's the awareness piece is is is really good.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I guess when people listening to this podcast now right they want to become financial planners maybe they're in a financial planning firm they want to continue on the qualifications learning or somebody's considering like right we need Red Mid advance in our business to do our you know our training or full stop right what what things are you putting in place so let's give some real examples of how you do help people with new I you know neurodiversity the different types you know is it a is it a completely different program for somebody with dyscalchia uh towards somebody say who has ADHD or autism how are you approaching it and what would somebody expect as a learner but also as an employer taking you guys on as trainers?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I mean when we're delivering training um it's large scale so the academies for example uh when we're training exam and content we're training to you know hundreds one of our academics has got you know four or five hundred delegates moving through it others you know 100 200 delegates so this is at scale so when we're delivering that we have um our programs first of all have I've mentioned it before but these multiple assets so I think that helps from a kind of neurodiverse perspective that um you're appealing perhaps not just to one learning type you know you can focus in on reading or you know watching videos or whatever it may be and but we are delivering to the masses and so what we try and do is we try and with our trainers because we're blending that live into the classroom we try and look for those cues so our trainers are very good at it you know they'll identify well if someone's really struggling they'll actually probe and understand why they're struggling you know what's the reason for that and um it has been in the past that we've actually identified well it's because someone has is neurodiverse you know they have ADHD they're unable to or uh dyslexia or something along those those lines what we then do is we will try and um tailor how we deliver that training to that individual and now that can start with a conversation around well how can we make it a little bit more bespoke how can we give them some extra time and how can we just wrap our arms around that individual a little bit more and make sure that they're being uh looked after so really for us Sam it's about um we look for those cues when we're delivering that training and I mean obviously part of it is awareness as I say we're bringing that awareness into the workplace through the live learning sessions that we run.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Q1 as I mentioned we ran 26 it was a spotlight on neurodiversity.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think in May alone we've ran five or six of those so um because we're bringing that awareness it helps employers identify if individuals are neurodiverse and in turn they can let us know.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: So if we're delivering uh training um you know again we can wrap our arms around those individuals so really practically what we try and do is just identify when we're running that blended learning and we we feed that back to the employer.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's a two-way process provided that delegate is comfortable with his with his doing so and then we figure it out you know we look at the ways that we can say well where are you really struggling?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: What extra support do you need?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we genuinely wrap our arms around them and look after them.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think for for me it's about taking everybody's individuals which is very hard especially if you're a large uh advice firm and um the the change that we've seen in people attending our neurodiversity spotlight is it can be quite emotional because you've got these people that are curious about themselves.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: It might be that they they suspect that there's something there and and on the spotlights it's it's one hour every week that that red mill deliver to to people and these are things like soft skills so not just neurodiversity but it's communication that we do as well.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of sessions ago I had a woman in tears um because she felt like for the first time in her life she's been seen uh and heard and and felt that you know she she has more answers than she's got questions now, you know, just from attending an hour session.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And these spotlights, you know, we've got autism awareness, dyslexia and dyspraxia, ADHD, where we start to really dispel some of the myths and break down them barriers.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately people and employers have a duty of care to their employees ultimately they've got a legal duty under the Equality Act to make sure that they are being supported you know if we take a step back consumer duty the beautiful world that it is you know you've got consumer duty where firms are heavily monitored to make sure that they are putting vulnerable customers at the heart of everything that they do.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Consumer understanding making sure that the consumer walks away from that meeting knowing everything.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: The only question I would ask firms is are we paying the same respect to our neurodivergent staff that would potentially be classed as vulnerable customers?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are we giving them the same level of support?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, you know we need to find some answers pretty quick.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we do we do a neurodiversity screener and you know if you have ADHD symptoms that might be comorbid with dyslexia dyspraxia dyscalculea developmental language disorder within an hour people have answers.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a diagnostics but what it does is it shows all of your traits and we start with a coaching session to build on that and we give them a report to be able to go look this is where you need some help.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know and there's even government funding through access to work the DWP that can actually help and support funding for these individuals like software adjustments, coaching, mentoring, training for the workplace as well.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: What's very interesting though as well is that you're talking about the vulnerable clients and a lot of those vulnerable clients might also be neuro non-neurotypical right so it's important that you're also as a business completely aware of it a starting with your staff that your staff are aware of it and they're able to identify in others whether or not they are neurodiverse.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if they are how do we operate how do I sit with this person and communicate with them?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: What type of information are they expecting from me?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: How important is it I follow up you know there's so many things that can cause friction between a client and an advisor if you don't understand the mechanics of how they work right and we're not expecting everybody to be an expert but what we're looking for is at least awareness within the business that not everybody thinks the same.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: So your customers aren't thinking the same your employees aren't thinking the same and what are we doing about it to make that easier.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know one of the biggest things that you said there right is a weight off with the woman who was who's who was in tears I can massively relate to that right I I went for years and years and years and years and years just thinking what the hell is wrong with me.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as I as soon as I was able to identify in a room with other people that I was the way I was I was like a weight off my shoulders like it was just oh my god I'm not mental you know like I'm not and it and it it really does do that.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's so so important if firms aren't actually creating some form of awareness and conversation around it the people in your business trust me on this one will be sitting there with a way level with a way higher level of anxiety and worry than the neurotypical person.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because a small little thing can set you off can it yeah you know it it's and I think if if you're not having that conversation or if you're not creating signposting to an area or an expert within the business or even linking into Neurosparks or or whatever or the training and development company that you have you you you you are creating stress for some employees and it is stress which comes with being non-neurotypical right yeah absolutely I mean Dan mentioned the diagnostic um tool that um through Neurosparks that that he has I mean it is a phenomenal tool actually I've I've gone through it.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Actually I was curious 15 employees 14 um neurodiverse and my number 15 that isn't so as because I'm a non-exec basically for Neurosparks so my number 15 I was curious okay yes yeah there was a few more but what we've done since then we've supported staff to get diagnostics and and I think you know I I have an old adage that yogurt attracts yogurt you know and what I mean by that is that again my vibe my tribe you know it's a case of helping and supporting people to find actually where they are comfortable where they are to disclose that information.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well I was going to say that tool is actually it's excellent but um there was a um a report that um Neurosparks and Dan um commissioned with uh Lancaster University and it's a brilliant report I mean it's 30 pages it takes a real deep dive into neurodiversity in the workplace um academic paper honestly fantastic read Sam and I think every employer should have a copy of this and read it so we can link that in the show notes and figure that one out if it's okay but I think that that's something that could be very very useful to anybody that's listening.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so it was actually sorry my fault University of Lancashire okay oh sorry yeah beg your pardon University of Lancashire and it was actually funded by the government you know to be able to to raise awareness for employers um to actually understand the concept of of neurodiversity because neurodiversity was coined in the early 90s when we didn't really have internet and basically was a woman called Judy Singer Australian sociologist autistic herself basically she came up with the term neurologically diverse i.e.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: we all think differently everybody watching this at home thinks differently from each other that is neurodiverse neurodivergent is an individual that thinks or processes information differently from the norms and I hate saying normal because what is normal?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah correct I agree um so ultimately neurodiversity in the workplace is nothing but a strength that should be celebrated by all firms because if we didn't have that it would be a very boring place to live and work.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: It really would and it's our job as a training and development company to help bring that awareness to the market Sam which is exactly what our digital content does and our live training does.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's hugely important.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes we're training financial advisors we're giving them the skills we're helping them maintain their CPD and we've spoken about this before but we should be doing this as well as a training and development company and I think that's what maybe separates us a little bit you know we do consider um how important this type of training is and we do um put a spotlight on it.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get back to you and your business of 14 people that are neurodiverse tell us a little bit about that because is that like so somebody listening into that they must think that must be tricky or difficult.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: However I can imagine with your knowledge and understanding and empathy with others and how they operate have you created an ecosystem that is magnificent?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't have put it better any better myself to be honest.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: So my partner Luke he is autistic and Luke is a very very talented individual I would describe him as uh very academic you know he's got a master's in chemistry he's got his PGC he went and did his AAT bookkeeping qualification and he got 98% success pass and he sulked at that because he didn't get 100 you know this is the absolutely amazing talents that come with neurodiversity but a lot of people don't see the downsides as well so Luke gets very burnt out he struggles when he's got he's dealing more than one thing you know I have to really help him to understand what is on his plate because he's very very literal in it in his thinking and the way that he works you know so if I said to Luke oh it's raining cats and dogs he'd literally look out the window for a second and go, oh is it raining cats and dogs um whereas for me I love having so many plates spinning at the same time but ultimately that's down to my detriment as well because it's on a knife edge of burnout overwhelm and constantly going am I okay am I not okay am I okay am I not okay and you need a team around you that understands that and the more that the people understand that and actually we are all unique we're all as different on the inside as we are on the outside and I firmly believe that we're all on the right bus.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is that you get onto the bus, you get your ticket by your job interview, great, but there's always something there.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: You might not be sat in the right seat on the bus.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what we're telling and this is what we're taking employers through that sometimes it's okay to do task swaps.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: It might be that you know somebody with ADHD really struggles doing an accounting role because it's just not dopamine producing for them.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know get them in a BDM role get them in a sales role you know then they will flourish you know but don't be afraid to have these open conversations because there's a lot of managers and supervisors out there just burying their heads in the sand and that's only compacting it.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've started obviously growing my financial plan of life business and since my diagnosis I grew a recruitment business before recruitment is very rigid.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: We were in the office everyone had to be there everyone had to do this that and the other I've moved away from that thinking and the people that come into my business it's like what what are your strengths?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: What are your areas would you say that are your weaknesses?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Where would you want to spend your time on how do you want to how do you want to how do you want to uh build out your day you know what's the best way to start the day at the gym have you got children you know do you have a do you have a nap in the afternoon?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: How is the best way that you operate because I'm gonna be results oriented here.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: All I care about are the results how you get the results is down to you but I need you to operate in a way that works for you.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand that you understand that and I give you free reign to do it.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been one of the most like empowering empowering things for me because I'm no longer controlling yeah and when you are able to do that for your team so for example uh cat my head of funded services um she has neurodivergent child and you know she's neurodivergent herself and she suffers no she suffers she has insomnia as well um so her day she might start work at 4am you know most employers will be like oh 4am can't really do that but ultimately it's about playing to People's strengths, you know, because if she starts at four, she can finish at one or whatever time she needs to finish, you know, but also she's got caring responsibilities as well.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you support that individual so they feel psychologically safe, that actually they aren't in danger because of just being themselves.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: What you're doing is that level of trust between you and your team grows exponentially.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do face tough dark times, everyone's going, Dan, you need to take a step back, let us deal with it.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: She was my first ever member of staff that I bought on back in 2023.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: She is now my head of funded services.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because I understood her first and foremost, how she needs support, and then she supports the business and her clients back at the same.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what I'm what I'm finding.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm finding it really empowering.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of smashing up this idea of career development plans and just being quite flexible and working around the person in front of me and empowering them to choose the path that they want, the best way that they work.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and the results will come off the back of it.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: When people are happy, the results will come.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's when they're sitting there thinking, great example, the person who starts work at 4 a.m.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, oh well, our hours are nine till five, so we expect you to work till five.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna happen, they're gonna burn out.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there is a there is a caveat to that.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about reasonable adjustments in terms of the the Equality Act, it any adjustment that's put in place has to be reasonable both in terms of the employer and the employee.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, say, for example, you're um uh a high street practice financial advisory firm and your doors are open at nine between nine and five, you know.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: If, for example, Kat was working in that practice, it might not be feasible for her to start working at four because they might need somebody to cover the desk, the reception, whatever it is, until five o'clock because you've got clients that you need to deal with.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, and you know, the the career development plans, you know, just sort of going with the flow for some people are absolutely fantastic.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the majority of people will love that.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: But what we need to just bear in mind as well is that people like autistic people, they crave, they crave binary ways of working.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they need to be sort of got told, right, this is what you need to do, then you do this, then you do this, then you do this.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think having that skill of being able to see things from lots and lots of different perspectives, just like we would do when it comes to vulnerable customers and consumer duty, you know, we need to start giving that same sort of impact and respect to the teams that we manage uh and we foster as well.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you help companies understand how to approach staff that might be neurodivergent that just don't know it yet?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe they've got um an inkling that that person needs some element of support.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Are you so when you work with firms and managers and owners of businesses, are you sort of educating them and training on how to spot this in the workplace and what you then would do um about it?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I assume you work with HR, people, people, you know, that kind of thing.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's two two ways with this, really.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think first of all, Neurospox, yes, that's what we do, that's our bread and butter, you know, working with HR consultants, HR managers, HR directors to understand their workforce and and to look at that data.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think secondly, it's in terms of Redmill, you know, David made that decision to do these live learning sessions that we do on a on a rolling quarterly basis.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: And my expertise not only is you know regulated financial planning, but also is business psychology and you know understanding oneself and understanding client perception and need.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it also gives people an element and permission to have a space, safe space to ask questions.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we make this type of training um available to all our clients, not just on a live basis, but we have something along the lines of 50 to 60 of these types of digital modules sitting within our our solution, the Red Mill Advance Hub.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: So um if you think about all of our clients, um, Sam, you know, typically let's say a client has 600 you know advisors and a thousand employees, or they can be any size, you know, from small 50 employee up to you know thousands.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: But this is available, and that's the point, really.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: This digital type of training is accessible to them, to the senior managers, to the management teams, and and and everybody within that business.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the first thing.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's there.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they just have to jump in and search it.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um again, I've spoken about this before.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Think Netflix.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: You go in, you search for a title and it's there, or you use a drop-down and you look at EDI or well-being or um, you know, these types of um modules, and they're there, so it's accessible.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we have made a decision to take that into the classroom because um, what that allows is anybody, any of our clients to subscribe to the Red Mill Advanced Hub, so have our solution or platform with all of our learning content on there.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh at no extra cost can dial into these sessions.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um now the sessions are there's you know more than just neurodiversity, and but we do put a spotlight on that because we're taking it a step further.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're saying, well, look, these are the things you have to look out for.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is the type of neuroinclusion inclusion training that's really important in the workplace, and and we help you know senior managers and managers um understand how to um support and make those adjustments for those neurodiverse individuals within their business.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's available basically.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna have training, you're gonna have development within your business, you may as well go with a firm that's also got that there.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to do all the scratching around trying to find the information, what you can, what you can't say, what's this, what's that.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they can lean straight into you.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got Daniel, who's, you know, Neurosparks.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: He knows absolutely the inside and out of it.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: His background is financial services as well.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: So straight away as a business and no-brainer, isn't it?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're literally plugging into a company that is ready to go and understand neurodiversity, the um, the pain points, but also the points that are going to make these people fantastic within your business and improve your business.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, there are these individuals that they are they are brilliant.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if put in the right place in the right way and supported in the right way and understood in the right way, they can add some serious, serious value.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you look into this, oh, everyone's being diagnosed, great.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a huge amount of people being diagnosed, which means that you can identify that those people might fit beautifully into your business if you understood what that neurodiversity actually is and the value it could also have to your business if you manage it in the right way.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, you know, what I've experienced, genuinely experienced, is that you know, EDI, this type of learning, this type of training, this type of awareness, it goes far beyond just ticking that EDI box.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: I really believe that.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you know, it's not just about you know doing that, ticking the box because they have to.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think employers in my experience are they genuinely care.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: And there is an awareness, and it's a growing awareness.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really important for us as a learning and development company to make this type of training available to our clients, um, not just digitally, but bring experts, you know, our our trainers.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Dan Dan's been with us for five five years or six years or yeah, a long time.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: A long time.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: A long time.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, since 2019.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: 2019, there you go.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but make these experts available um to deliver that coaching.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, they are experts.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: Dan is an expert.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what he's not told you is um he's been uh looking at um his PhD as the the next step.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um the only reason why I'm doing a PhD, Sam, I'm gonna level with you is so that you can call me Dr.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: Dan.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, you know Dr.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Dan.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: Dan will see you now.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: Come and lie on my couch, talk to me, let's go through this, you know.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's it's about and one thing that I'm really excited about is the fact that, you know, when we talk about and in financial planning, you know, you talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and you talk about the financial planning journey, and you talk about how you can directly impact people and and your clients' lives, that you're gonna have a relationship with them for many years to come.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, employers, just think about how you can impact the life of your teams and your staff and this cultural awareness, culture starts at the top.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we do lots and lots of projects at Neurosparks about promoting that good culture right from the top, training senior leadership teams, training exec teams, senior managers, HR teams, and then all the way down every single member of staff.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because neurodiversity in the workplace, in our homes, in our school education system, it is everywhere.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: 15% of the population is neurodivergent.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going anywhere.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: The sooner we embrace it, the sooner that we can actually start to support people and really help them to understand how gifted and talented they are.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: How we can work together to make a you know a better business and just a better society in general, if we all just kind of accept each other.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's what it's all about, isn't it?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day.
• 52:46
  unknown: Right.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna put some um links into the comment section around Neurosparks.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've got that uh diagnostics tool, we've got the paper.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, of course, there's links to Redmill, uh, every single show note that we have.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you just urge people to reach out to you guys and to get this in your business.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have it already, if you're not dealing with Redmill right now, there's a reason you you guys are my sponsors because you're without a shadow of a doubt, head and shoulders above every other training company in financial services.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're just continually improving and you're ticking the boxes that I think matter, which are the people.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what I love as well is you do care deeply about the outcome for clients and everything we've spoken about today is a it it it's a by you know, good neurodiversity awareness within your business is only going to filter down to your clients and you're gonna create a way better experience.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I love the work you're doing.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Keep it up, Neurosparks.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to do some more work with you, Dan, because I think there's just so much that we can do together, and it's definitely my mission to get you out there without a shadow of a doubt on financial plan of life.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, always a pleasure, David, to have you on the podcast.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you both very much.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers