Latest / Identity at the Center / #330 - Mastering Group Management with Microsoft's David Johnson

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#330 - Mastering Group Management with Microsoft's David Johnson · Identity at the Center

0:00
AI is fantastic, but if you have bad or over overexposed
0:05
information, AI is going to surface it.
0:08
AI is not going to care, but it shouldn't show you something you
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have access to it, it's going to show it to you.
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So getting permissions right, getting the memberships right,
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getting identities right is absolutely cornerstone to good
0:19
and well managed AI. And that to me is a fundamental
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part of our future. And and that that, you know,
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when I think about managing and governing our services, really
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it's to make Copilot shine. So you took my copilot question
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because that's what I wanted to ask you was how do you see this
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kind of evolving with that? So I'm going to take it in
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another direction. We're going to go backwards.
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Is there a a particular innovation or thing that
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happened and we'll just call it in the SharePoint environment or
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the group permission management, that kind of thing that you see
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as like, Oh yeah, when we did that back in X, that really kind
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of changed the game of how we're approaching this or made things
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easier. Like, is there something that
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stands out? I think I I'd pick on a coupled
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key things. I think one, we are group
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membership management for VP groups.
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The fact that all of the engaged community for some organizations
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automatically created constructed an intro we serve
1:08
right people. That's cornerstone us getting
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labeling even tied to the interest of Microsoft 365
1:15
groups. Again, cornerstone the fact that
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I can differentiate that highly confidential data from a general
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general data. Those are things that make a big
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difference in the IT organization.
1:29
This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with
1:35
IAM. This is the go to podcast now
1:39
your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman.
1:49
Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast.
1:51
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
1:53
Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself.
1:56
I'm good. So I was reminded today what was
1:59
the first thing I said to you when I first met you many, many
2:02
moons ago. Do you like?
2:04
Baseball. Never forget it.
2:06
Yeah. And what's cool about I know
2:07
we've told that story a few times, right?
2:09
We, we do this show, it's real, you know, and that's a real
2:14
story that really happened. But So what I was reminded about
2:18
it was just like, it's been a lifelong dream of mine to go to
2:22
Arizona in the month of March to catch some spring training.
2:28
And I always figured I'd have to spend my own money on it and
2:30
things like that. Well, I actually have a work
2:33
project that's going to send me out to Arizona.
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I'm going to get to catch a game on a Sunday while I'm out there.
2:40
So, you know, fly out there a little bit early and and check
2:45
one more thing off the bucket list before I kick it.
2:48
That's the pro move, right? Whenever you get to travel for
2:50
work, try and bookend it with something to do in the city.
2:53
And I say that as a pro move because I never do that.
2:55
I'm like in and out like hotel or I'm like airport, hotel,
3:01
client, hotel, airport and I'm out.
3:03
That's pretty much how I do it. But.
3:04
You're doing it the more you travel, the more you fall into
3:06
that trap. But I've been, you know, since
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COVID, not traveling nearly as much as pre COVID.
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But I'm fully going to take advantage of this trip to
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Arizona in March and. You're a big baseball guys,
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that's spring training, so you're going to see what teams
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out there. I think I'm going to go.
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And so there's like half the MLB plays out there and I'm not a
3:28
big fan of either of these teams, A's and Giants.
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But from everything I read, which is mostly on Reddit, the
3:36
San Francisco Giants has to be true.
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The San Francisco Giants stadium in the Surprise, AZ is like,
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you've got to see it, it's the best.
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So that's so if if you have one to do, that's the place to go,
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apparently. At least I'll know if I enjoy it
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or not. I don't know if I'll be able to
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say how it ranks against other parks.
4:00
I've been to a lot of spring training in Florida because I
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live near Florida and it's a short drive.
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Short, as in eight hours or so, but.
4:10
It's not a short. Drive, but I get it.
4:11
Yeah, exactly. That's cool.
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I'm sure you'll have a good time.
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And you know, baseball's your jam.
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I'm not much of a baseball fan and you know, for whatever
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reason, our total opposites seem to work on this.
4:24
Yeah, exactly. But yeah, mostly what I'm doing,
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my travel these days is for conferences.
4:31
So we lined up a bunch of discount codes.
4:32
You want to kind of go over those.
4:34
Yeah, we've got 3. So we'll start with the Gartner
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I AM Summit in London. That one is in March, March 24th
4:41
and 25th. And if you use the code IDAC
4:43
425, you will save, I don't think we ever determined 425 of
4:48
some sort of local currency. I don't know if it's pounds.
4:50
Or EUR 420. 5 something, I think it's EUR though, and we'll have
4:56
that link in our show notes as well with, you know, discount
4:58
codes. But yeah, that's kind of cool
5:00
that they've extended out there. You and I were at the Gartner
5:02
conference in December and that was a lot of fun.
5:05
So shout out to Rebecca for hosting us on stage and, and
5:09
giving us a, giving us a yeah, the, the grilling that we gave
5:13
them a couple years ago. It was they turned the she
5:16
turned the tables on us. Yeah, my, how, the, my, how the
5:19
tables turn. So Next up we've got Berlin.
5:22
This is something you and I are going to.
5:23
It's the European Identity and Cloud Conference that's May 6th
5:26
through the 9th. And if you use the code IDAC 25
5:30
MKO, you get 25% off of that one.
5:33
So you and I have been spending a lot of time getting that
5:35
coordinated and starting to figure out our plans for that.
5:38
I still have to book my flight but I do have a hotel so that's
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good. Yeah, absolutely.
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I'm, you know, like I said, I'm going to go out there the week
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before I'm going to be in Oslo, Norway and hoping to set up an
5:50
identifier, but that's already being planned and I'm going to
5:54
spend the weekend in Copenhagen. So if there are listeners in
5:58
Copenhagen, would love to to meet even just for a coffee or
6:03
whatever. Not sure how big our listener
6:06
base is in Copenhagen, but then after that heading to Berlin so.
6:11
We got listeners everywhere, so. We do.
6:14
We do. We'll buy you a beer or a coffee
6:17
or something like that. Absolutely glad to.
6:21
Let's see. Then after that we're coming
6:23
back to the United States and we're going to do Ideniverse
6:26
2025 in Las Vegas. So June 3rd to the 6th at a
6:30
discount for that as well. IDV 25-I D AC25, they get you
6:35
25% off. So you and I have some things
6:38
that we're planning and we had a meeting this morning about that.
6:41
So some fun stuff that we're not quite ready to announce, but
6:44
stay tuned for information on that.
6:47
So I'm, I'm excited because we're going to do something with
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that, that we had a good time with last year.
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Absolutely. I would expect for, you know,
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both Berlin as well as Idanoverse, we're going to put
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out as much content as we can coming out of those.
7:00
So stay tuned for that. Yeah, I, I will.
7:04
We'll see what happens with timing wise because I, I would
7:07
rather not be editing on vacation, stuff like that.
7:10
So we might space it out a little bit.
7:11
But yeah, we'll have content for that and then let's see what
7:14
else we got. The Authenticate conference by
7:16
Fight Alliance that's coming up later this year.
7:18
And I think their call for speakers is open, right?
7:21
Is that run through next couple of couple months through March,
7:23
right? Actually, you know, down a
7:25
couple of months, the proposals do on March 3rd.
7:29
So it's got about a month. So drops you got a couple weeks,
7:33
but you know, focus on password lists, authentication, you know,
7:38
device or or possession based factors over knowledge factor.
7:43
So if you've got a good paper in mind or a good twist on
7:47
something you've done within your organization or was looking
7:50
for things like that, so you go to authenticatecon.com, like
7:56
authenticate conference, but just con.
7:59
I will have all these links in a show notes and they're always on
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our homepage to idcpodcast.com. You'll see all the current
8:05
discounts that we're aware of. So go there, check it out.
8:08
You know, use the codes, abuse them, send as many people out.
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And if you do let us know, come up, meet us.
8:14
Jim and I are usually carrying stickers, and we're happy to
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hand those out. So all right, why don't we get
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to our guest who's been patiently waiting in the wings
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here listening to this. His name is David Johnson.
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He's the principal PM architect at Microsoft.
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Welcome to IDENTITY at the Center, David.
8:29
Thank you. Hello.
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And yes, I'm in the Microsoft Digital organization,
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specifically at Microsoft, where you might think of it as
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Microsoft's IT organization. Gotcha.
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So we're going to get into probably a few different things
8:41
around like groups and AD and Entra and SharePoint and teams
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and all kinds of stuff like that.
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But it's your first time on the show, so we always like to find
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out origin stories. Yours might be a little
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interesting because you've been with Microsoft for like 25
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years. So I'm curious, how did you get
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into the identity space? Is this something that you
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chose? Did it choose you?
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Like how did that come about? Well, it I guess more than 20
9:04
years ago or so, I kind of got involved with SharePoint and how
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we were managing SharePoint on premise.
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And when you think about some of the key themes around
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SharePoint, it's about permission management and how
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are you kind of making sure of the right people have access to
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what how you on doing ongoing access?
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How do you make sure you're minimizing, you know, over
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sharing of information? Bright people should have
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access, right stuff. Identity is a sensor of all
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that, right? And that's kind of where you
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think about that's when on Prem world moving into the cloud,
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Entra becomes your foundational story of how SharePoint and how
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teams and all these other services are all foundationally
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managed and tied to identity and Entra.
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And so really when I think about how do I govern the Microsoft 65
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data state, which is what I do, I have to govern effectively the
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intra data estate when it comes to groups especially.
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And so we've my though my focus is Microsoft 365 and related
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services like our platform copilot agents and so on.
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Intra is a big part of that because it's foundational.
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You can't be successful if you don't have a good identity
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stack. I like what you said there.
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Identity Center. Somebody should start a podcast
10:17
called that you. Well, Microsoft also has a bunch
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of conferences. Do you ever speak at any of the
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conferences that Microsoft does? Because it seems like they have
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3 or 4 per year. Yeah, I do.
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I last year I spoke to the Microsoft 35 conference.
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I'm doing, I do again this May, I think it's in Vegas, if I
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recall correctly, the Microsoft 35 conference.
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I generally talk about how Microsoft manages Microsoft,
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that we govern ourselves because obviously it's some people are
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kind of interested in, you know, we're a large customer of
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ourselves. What does it mean we're managing
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SharePoint and teams and intro groups and how do we pull it all
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together to to let our employees be successful without IT getting
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in a way too much? What's a common question that
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you get from people when you when you present and stuff like
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that? And I have to imagine a lot of
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people are like, OK, well, you know, how does Microsoft do it?
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Microsoft using their own products.
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But is there like a common question that you typically will
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get after you you present? Yeah, I think it's everything
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from I actually, there's a lot. It's like, well, do you really
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turn this all on? Do you really run it?
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It's how do you run this at scale?
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What kind of problems do you have?
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And it's often coming up with the same concerns customers
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have. I mean, it's like, how do you
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deal with the oversharing problem?
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How do you still sprawl on the enterprise?
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What are employees allowed to do in your enterprise?
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How do you just deal with change?
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You're running in a cloud, How do you keep up with the product
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stack? What as Microsoft, you're kind
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of your first customer yourselves.
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Is that hard? Like those are the common
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questions that I'll get all the time.
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And those are common themes I'll get into is how do we govern
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Microsoft and how do we manage effectively all this stuff that
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people create and is our our guiding principle goes back to
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we're trying to let employees do things.
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So the conversation we're going to have today is really kind of
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focused more on your viewpoint as that practitioner, right?
12:08
We're not talking like Microsoft's tablets coming from
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on high and saying thou shalt do this.
12:13
This is really more your own experience and and just want to
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get that out there, right? We make sure that we don't
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portray things the way they shouldn't be.
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No, exactly. And I'll say my role is
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responsible for how, whatever standard, what do we do
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internally? And so all I can talk about is
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how Microsoft manages Microsoft. I can't give, of course, how you
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should do it as a customer. It's up to you.
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I, I also please say I think this is a good idea.
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This is clearly something we do, but that's as far as I'll go.
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So, David, I know as, as we've kind of gotten into some of the
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conversations, I, I mean, clearly, you know, Active
12:49
Directory and, and groups way better than I do.
12:52
So let's kind of ease people into some of these topics that
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we're going to talk about today. And what I wanted to talk about
12:58
is how the Microsoft Directory products handle entitlements,
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namely groups. You know, my origin into
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Microsoft as well was kind of back in the day of Windows MT4
13:14
and they're just groups back then, but there's different
13:17
kinds of groups now, right? And so I was wondering if you
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kind of start us with an overview of with the types of
13:22
groups, thinking about kind of the Entre environments and also
13:27
hybrid environments where you've got obviously, I think almost
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all Microsoft customers at this point have got some staked
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Entre, but a lot of companies still have that on premise
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Active Directory and they're keeping the two In Sync.
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So if you kind of give us an overview of how you know what
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group, what different types of groups are out there and how
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they work. Yeah.
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And, and fundamentally I'll, I guess I'll, I'll focus a lot of
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the intro groups, the Azure Active Directories that was
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formerly known groups. Obviously things like security
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groups and distribution list and and e-mail enabled security
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groups, security enabled distribution list like those are
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all things that existed on premise in the AD world and in
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the cloud AD intra. You now have effectively
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additionally Microsoft 365 groups and in addition to
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security groups in addition to DLS and the Microsoft 365 group
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construct is effectively the what's unique about it is in
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addition to it being a membership construct to to make
14:34
sure you got the right people, it's also the construct that
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backs every share of SharePoint sites and every Microsoft team.
14:42
For example, a channel are all backed by a a Microsoft 365
14:45
group. Some people might think of them
14:47
as universal groups, groups that they, they how every people
14:52
engaged community, they're all backed by the same group type in
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intra. And that's why when you think
14:57
about the themes that how do you manage SharePoint?
15:00
How do you manage themes? At the end of the day, a lot of
15:03
this comes down to how do you manage groups because that's
15:06
that's your construct. Yeah.
15:08
And I mean, that's what you're doing all the time.
15:11
And it's kind of like eat your own dog food kind of model.
15:14
And I don't want to ask you what are the best practices from a
15:17
Microsoft perspective, but in your mind, when it comes to
15:21
managing groups, what are some best practices that you know you
15:25
would give that advice to your best friend?
15:28
Yeah, I would say first of all, determine who is allowed to
15:31
create groups. Obviously as an IT organization,
15:35
you have certain trust issues. Everyone does.
15:39
We know for example, in our case, we will let our full time
15:41
employees create groups. We will let, we'll let our full
15:46
time employees create SharePoint sites and team sites and teams
15:49
and things like that. But not even engaged
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communities, Sorry, I'm not sure if there's other background
15:55
noise coming through. But, and you know, point is,
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yeah, we will let our employees create these things.
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And so it's part one who can create Part 2, You know, and I
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think it's really important. I will let people create more
16:06
groups, more sites, more teams. It's better doing that than say,
16:12
letting sprawl happen, letting abuse, abuse happen of all these
16:15
things all over again. I want to make sure that you
16:19
don't go deep on something like it's far better for you to have
16:22
multiple SharePoint sites, multiple groups, then
16:26
effectively doing a bunch of nesting and a bunch of reuse of
16:30
an existing group for a different purpose.
16:32
Because the end of the day that when oversharing happens is when
16:36
people get it wrong because somebody didn't realize that
16:39
this group, this location has a different permission structure.
16:42
When you think this location has nesting that you didn't realize,
16:45
you just open this thing up to. And so when you think about kind
16:50
of groups and the of the Microsoft group model, having a
16:54
ability for people to create things, I think is essential.
16:57
But at the same time that comes with accountability.
16:59
So we let people create things. We're also going to validate
17:02
that we have the appropriate owners on these things.
17:04
So we've got expiry policies on these things.
17:06
We keep them only as long as we need to.
17:09
And that keeps the house clean because that's the other part of
17:11
this that you don't just want groups sitting around forever
17:14
unmanaged. Oh, and one of the big theme for
17:17
groups and is we allow guests in our groups that and it's kind of
17:21
funny to think about, but it's better from a tenant standpoint
17:24
at least for us to bring guests in and have those confidential
17:28
conversations and collaboration on our tenant using identities
17:33
that are guests into our tenant versus the data would be going
17:37
away and and people leaving our services completely.
17:40
So we'll bring guests into our services.
17:42
But one other thing that I talked about a lot of our groups
17:46
is we label our groups something that's not necessarily an
17:49
identity construct, but it is a core, I guess data construct is
17:53
how do you manage labeling of things?
17:56
How do you make sure that the right I see sensitivity.
18:01
In other words, something's highly confidential or is it
18:03
wide open to the entire company? And so that way I can define and
18:06
say this Microsoft 365 group is a highly confidential group.
18:10
Maybe it's an internal only group, but therefore it has
18:12
policies side to it. This other group is actually
18:15
general. It can be all company for all I
18:16
care. You can bring guests into it.
18:17
It's OK. But we one of the big things
18:20
that I think about from a best practice standpoint is all the
18:23
things are on group creation and management life cycle, but also
18:26
data delineation. The fact that I have a label on
18:29
a group means I can delineate the groups which are meant to be
18:32
open and protect versus the ones that need to be deeply protected
18:35
because they're backing sensitive data.
18:38
Yeah, I, I see a lot of my clients I work with over the
18:44
years have struggled with this concept of how do you manage the
18:48
creation of groups And one, kind of making sure that they are
18:52
putting good descriptions and good metadata, assign the
18:55
owners, assigning sensitivity, writing the description that
18:59
makes sense to people and then not making the process too
19:05
inefficient, right. But usually there's got to be
19:08
some kind of like check or approval process.
19:11
I think what I've seen probably the most is some kind of process
19:14
where either a third party tools in use or there's a lot of
19:18
PowerShell scripting that takes place after a review has been
19:24
done of like a request for groups.
19:26
But I guess I, you know, initially when you said, hey,
19:29
it's delegated, any employee can create groups.
19:33
I, you know, I was wondering what, what are the mechanics of
19:35
that, that you know that you'd have that kind of quality check?
19:39
Yeah, No, it's a great question because an employee can create a
19:42
group in the intraportal. They can create a group in in
19:45
teams. You go on Outlook, go create a
19:47
new group from Outlook, go create a new group in
19:50
SharePoint, because I want a new SharePoint site to the team site
19:52
that's backed by a group. So all those experiences do the
19:55
group creation flow and all those experiences.
20:00
Basically, they all honor the rules like we get to define an
20:03
intra who's allowed to create. We get to define the the the
20:06
naming rule policies for groups. We also get to define like we
20:10
can do prefixing if we were to choose to, obviously,
20:14
effectively the naughty word list.
20:15
As we think about it, the words that you just shouldn't put in a
20:18
group name, things like that are in the block word list, things
20:21
like that. Plus the the label definition
20:24
that intra will, if you have it all configured, will force
20:28
collect the label of a group. So it doesn't matter where you
20:30
created, it's creating SharePoint or teams or intra.
20:33
It'll collect the label of a group.
20:35
And from there the the group is created and then we will do a
20:39
checks after a fact. So the in product provisioning,
20:42
we're actually letting people you know directly in Outlook,
20:45
right? We're not having a third party
20:46
tool or some custom UI to create the group Co create the group
20:50
where you are. We believe that it's actually
20:53
faster for employees, it's more intuitive for employees that
20:57
create an in place experiences, but we're going to hold them
21:00
accountable to what we created. We're going to put force them
21:02
into the naming rules. Of course we're going to force
21:04
them into the labeling and we're going to react after a fact.
21:08
So we have a bunch of things running against a tenant in a
21:11
reactive way to watch what's done.
21:12
So of course there's all the proactive stuff from collecting
21:15
the basics, which the product is going to do and all the reactive
21:18
validation to go, hey, you didn't have a second owner to
21:20
this group. We're going to require you put a
21:22
had a second owner into this group, for example, or the
21:25
second owners left the company, we're going to catch that and
21:27
portion had a second owner, things like that.
21:30
How do you, I guess what, how do you enforce those types of
21:33
controls with that? Is it a form based thing where
21:36
it's doing like data validation? Is there some tool or maybe
21:39
power script or something running behind the OR PowerShell
21:41
running behind the screen? How's that work?
21:43
So that's a great question. I think first that Intra will
21:45
collect what you tell it to collect to just at least in
21:47
terms of the labeling and naming roles and stuff like that.
21:50
Other things are literally Azure jobs running against a tenant
21:53
that watch, scan for anomalies, catch them, send a notification
21:58
of a group owner to say the house out, take action
22:00
basically. And if you and if you don't take
22:03
action in a certain amount of time, we do delete things like
22:05
one of the things that the nice thing about you three to five
22:08
groups and teams and SharePoint and all these things, these
22:11
constructs are restorable within 30 days.
22:13
So as ITI don't feel too guilty about deleting it.
22:16
So if you don't take action as a group owner, I'm going to, you
22:19
know, I'm going to hold you accountable.
22:21
If you don't do what I tell you to do, I'm going to delete this
22:23
thing. I give you plenty of warning.
22:25
But then yeah, I've got that Azure job which is going to run
22:27
against the service and wipe your group out.
22:29
Hey, David, One thing that you touched on and I don't want to
22:33
let it go was about nesting. And so I know a lot of my
22:37
clients that are in kind of hybrid environments have got
22:40
nested groups and it seems to be the bane of their existence at
22:45
some level. I'm wondering kind of what is
22:47
your perspective on group nesting?
22:50
So I'll, I'll frame it. There's two really good stories
22:53
here. Part 1 is Microsoft 365 groups
22:56
actually don't even support nesting, at least not today.
22:59
They're, you know, it's actually a really good thing for me.
23:02
So I don't even have a nesting thing to worry about on a, you
23:04
know, on a Microsoft 365 groups part Part 1.
23:07
But there's a catch because people like nesting.
23:10
People like their DLS where they've got some VP distribution
23:14
list made-up of a whole bunch of a direct distribution list and
23:16
they want to bring it all together a security groups or
23:18
whatever. What we do for that is we use
23:21
either dynamic groups and intra or we have our own group
23:24
membership management tool, which is actually on GitHub and
23:26
we can share a link that people can actually use just open
23:30
source tool effectively about how do you do group membership
23:33
management then build automatically populate so that
23:36
VP group, they don't have to worry about it.
23:38
So I don't have to have a bunch of nested groups in that VP
23:41
group. If I really want to add Group 1
23:44
into group 2 and a bunch of other things and miss people
23:47
based on some business rule, for example, all full time employees
23:50
under some vice president or all program managers under this
23:54
team, we can totally do that. Our tool will run and build the
23:58
group membership out and keep it up to date.
24:00
I don't need nesting at that point.
24:02
And and that to me is the best practices.
24:04
Don't use nesting. If a membership needs to be
24:06
managed from some tight way with some business rules like that
24:09
and or you want to delegate it down to bring in a whole bunch
24:11
of other things, use membership management in some way to build
24:15
your group out. Don't just try to build some
24:18
nesting hierarchy that people are likely to get wrong and and
24:22
quite frankly, we see them getting it wrong.
24:23
Back to your point on security groups, yes, they get it wrong.
24:26
We don't realize that this group is embedded with a whole bunch
24:28
of other groups. I want to go back to something
24:31
you mentioned about inviting guests into the environment.
24:34
I feel like this is something that a lot of people maybe don't
24:37
understand or maybe isn't configured on their own tenants
24:41
to kind of do it the way that they are expecting it to.
24:43
But first of all, let's not lose anybody.
24:46
What do you define as a guest when it comes to Entra or
24:50
Microsoft or SharePoint should say?
24:52
Right. So how I kind of think about
24:53
that is obviously tenant members, we meant, we meant the
24:57
identity. So we bought joe@microsoft.com
25:00
minted identity or even a, a supplier where we're minting the
25:03
identity, you know, v-joe@microsoft.com, right?
25:06
Those are things on our tenant. Tenant members, guests are where
25:10
we invite, you know, Joe at contoso.com is a guest into our
25:13
product project that you know, if someone wants to bring Joe at
25:17
Contoso into a team or they want to share a file on SharePoint to
25:20
Joe Contoso, they'll bring them into the tenants as a guest and
25:24
and therefore do a sharing. And so the guest, the guest
25:28
effectively is anyone whose identity isn't minted in your
25:34
tenant. You're not owning the identity
25:36
construct. You're simply saying, I trust
25:38
Contoso is validating it that they the identity is coming from
25:41
them. I'm forcing some rule like in
25:44
our case, our our guest model is set up to say we're going to
25:48
require multi factor authentication that that the
25:50
other provider better have that set up.
25:52
Otherwise we're not going to trust that guest.
25:54
But assuming they do and intro will confirm that, then they
25:58
guests come into our tenant, assuming of course the the
26:00
employees invited the guest. And then of course, you got a
26:03
life cycle. But I'll get to that in a
26:04
minute. So the basic construct is anyone
26:06
who's outside of our tenant boundaries from identity
26:08
perspective, we consider them guests.
26:10
And that guest can be a Microsoft account or can it be a
26:15
Google account or an e-mail address?
26:16
Like what's the requirement there?
26:17
So it can be any work identity from any other organization
26:22
effectively anything intra supports from a guest
26:24
perspective. So yes, typically work
26:26
identities. You can have consumer identities
26:28
as well like in a Microsoft account.
26:29
To your point, you can have social identities spending.
26:32
We're focused predominantly on work identities that we bring in
26:35
as guests from Intra or Microsoft account identities as
26:38
guests in the Intra. As long as we can do a validate
26:41
to say yes, you really are who you say they are, then we're OK.
26:46
What is something that people commonly get wrong when they're
26:49
setting this up? Because I feel like I've had so
26:50
many different experiences coming in as a guest to other
26:53
environments that I'm not sure if there's if there's a right
26:57
way or a wrong way to do it. Well, I think Part 1 where
27:01
people can get this wrong is what are you allowing a guest to
27:03
do and what, what are the guest defaults like?
27:06
I think the big theme that scares companies to bring in
27:09
guests is kind of a construct of, well, what does this look
27:15
like? What are we going to get access
27:16
to? Which is why your, your, your,
27:18
your environment has to be configured to basically block
27:21
guests by default. It has to be very purposeful act
27:23
to bring a guest in. So even a guest is in your
27:25
tenant in some way on in the directory structure doesn't mean
27:28
they've accessed anything. That guest has to be explicitly
27:31
added to something to get access to it.
27:33
I can bring joan.katosa.com into that tenant as a guest, but
27:37
until I bring them in into a team or invite them to access
27:40
file, they're not going to get out anything, right.
27:43
And so that's a cornerstone. And the other thing when I think
27:46
about guest management, I, I mentioned labeling earlier, but
27:49
that team is going to be default, for example, or that
27:52
365 group is going to be default guest block.
27:54
Like we say, our default group label is confidential Microsoft
27:58
Intel only, which means just that, no guests.
28:02
You have to switch the label to allow a guest to become a member
28:05
of a group. And then even then you're going
28:07
to have to have invited that guest and bring them in.
28:11
And if there's any files, this files are going to have to allow
28:13
guests. So everything we're doing is
28:15
guest block by default, but guests allowed based on data
28:19
label and sensitivity management.
28:21
So there's the other big themes. And the other part that I'd say
28:23
from a tenant perspective is life cycle management for
28:25
guests. And that's for us a really big
28:28
thing. Do you, how long should that
28:30
guest be there? Like we will wipe guests from
28:33
our directory if we're inactive for a period of time.
28:35
I think it's 60 days right now. And we'll force a reattestation
28:39
of a guest that when you invite a guest into a team, you'll have
28:43
to reattest to the fact that the guest should still be there, you
28:45
know, half a year later, roughly, should the guest still
28:48
have access to this thing, the SharePoint, this file, this,
28:51
this group, right. We we require reattestation all
28:53
over the place. You had a couple questions that
28:56
I was going to ask about that life cycle.
28:57
Part of how long is too long to have a guest who's not doing
29:00
anything within your environment?
29:03
Yeah, I'd argue if a guest is inactive in your tenant for 60
29:06
days, they should be in your tenant, right?
29:08
There's got to be a reason for their that partnership has to be
29:12
an ongoing thing and someone has to care, right?
29:16
Someone who invited that guest in needs to care, but the guest
29:18
is still there. Otherwise why are they there?
29:21
It's like I think my point is it it's totally legit to have a
29:26
sensitive project, even cross tenant bringing the guests into
29:28
a project. I'd rather it be on my tenant
29:30
but as soon as that project is done I want it out.
29:33
And if a project manager forgets to get them out, I'm going to
29:36
get them out. Oh, they'll never forget.
29:38
No one ever forgets to remove. No one ever forgets.
29:40
No no. Exactly.
29:41
Access reviews and interests are essential.
29:43
I think they're an undervalued thing that really critical.
29:47
SharePoint also has access reviews.
29:48
If you bring a guest into a SharePoint site or shareable
29:51
file, same thing. Access reviews kick off.
29:54
One of the things that I think people try to take advantage of
29:56
is delegated authority and having an admin in an
30:00
organization kind of manage their own.
30:02
Does that really apply to the guest environment?
30:04
Is that more for, you know, let's say your own tenant minted
30:07
identities? Where does the role of a
30:09
delegate managing a separate organization come into this?
30:14
Well, I mean there to a degree you are.
30:17
I mean, if you're using what's considered native identity or
30:21
yeah, David, I should be direct connect, that's the other inter
30:25
kind of guest construct, then you're basically setting up a
30:27
trust relationship with another tenant.
30:30
Or if you're doing multi tenant organization, you're setting up
30:32
a trust relationship with another tenant.
30:33
And then you're basically delegating to say, Yep, I I have
30:36
a deeper level of trust with this other directory, right.
30:40
Otherwise, we guest you're defining an intra what basic
30:45
levels you're going to level the trust.
30:46
You can say what what domains, for example, you're going to
30:50
allow in by default, what domains you're going to block,
30:52
what people are allowed to bring in and what authentication type
30:56
you're going to allow, right? Or you can go all the way in to
30:58
say, Yep, we're going to require conditional access checks, for
31:00
example. And you must have passed your
31:02
conditional access checks for your organization, right?
31:05
Those are all things that you can do that that help you be in
31:08
better shape. And that's when your delegated
31:11
identity, sorry. No, that's, that's good advice.
31:14
I let me take this from the angle of what should I not be
31:17
doing when it comes to that sort of delegation?
31:20
Are there like things like, oh, you're really probably not going
31:22
to have a good experience with that or it's not secure or or
31:24
guidance like that? Well, I'd say be thoughtful
31:27
again about who can bring in. Do you trust your employees or
31:30
be trained sufficiently? Make sure of it again, you have
31:33
a light a a good data delineation story around where
31:36
guests can access, because to me, inviting somebody in your
31:40
house doesn't mean you want them to raid your fridge, right?
31:43
So make sure you got a very clearview of your there are a
31:48
lot in the living room, but not the kitchen kind of deal.
31:51
And making sure I set up in advance and making sure you got
31:54
a clear plan for that in advance.
31:56
Bringing guests in without any plan is a problem.
31:59
Like you don't know what they're going to get right.
32:01
And you know, Microsoft's made mistakes ourselves too.
32:03
Like this is not like saying, yeah, we're perfect.
32:05
We, we mess up and we keep learning and getting better
32:10
about all this. So guest management for us, it
32:14
has become a critical thing. We, we absolutely manage our
32:16
tenants in a very aggressive way.
32:18
Knowing those principles allow guests in the employees allowed
32:21
to invite, we will get rid of them.
32:23
We will make sure our data is properly delineated so we only
32:26
have access to the right things. I want to keep talking about
32:29
SharePoint, but I want to kind of clarify when it comes to
32:33
SharePoint Online, are we also talking about Teams that is, so
32:39
is the overlap there and how is it different from an access
32:42
management standpoint? It's a great, it's an
32:45
interesting topic because every team with the channel hierarchy
32:50
is a Microsoft 365 group. It's that's how it's back
32:52
identity wise. And so the membership in the
32:56
team is actually membership in an intra.
32:58
That's how it's defined. That team also comes with a
33:02
SharePoint site. So when you create that team UK,
33:05
create that Microsoft 365 group, you get a SharePoint site for
33:08
it, which has all the advantages now of saying I have a
33:11
membership aligned to that site aligned to that team.
33:15
I have one membership for everything and it's kind of the
33:19
one membership rule model construct because it's so
33:21
valuable, right? I've got a project team and it
33:24
doesn't matter if I'm in plan or SharePoint or Outlook or Teams,
33:28
I've got the membership construct behind it and they can
33:31
work in all those workloads and they're just against same
33:33
Microsoft 365 group behind the scenes.
33:36
It's putting it, pulling it all together, right.
33:38
That's the beauty of of this stuff that that team, it has
33:41
that SharePoint site. In fact, Teams, when you think
33:43
about it, is it's whole storage layer for files is SharePoint
33:47
right for, for any real team. So it it all fits together
33:52
intrinsically. I kind of feel like
33:55
philosophically the team slash SharePoint is an umbrella of
34:03
that you can hand over to somebody, say you decide, you
34:06
put, you decide what Files Go in here, what goes in the under the
34:11
umbrella and then you can manage the permissions within the
34:15
umbrella, like who gets access to what, but you're not going to
34:19
be able to break out of that umbrella to manage the
34:23
permissions beyond that. So it's kind of a safety zone,
34:27
but I, and I feel like that is an uncomfortable situation
34:33
sometimes for, you know, I people who own identity and
34:37
access management in that like it seems to me like it's just
34:42
the area that you hand over to somebody else.
34:44
Do you kind of feel like I guess that's the way the product's
34:49
designed, but in your experience, are you worried
34:52
about kind of what they do under their umbrella or is that?
34:56
Oh, yes, no, Oh yes. And I think there's some
34:59
strategies for that, everything from based on type of site.
35:04
You know you have this deep secret site, highly confidential
35:06
as we call it. Maybe the the owner doesn't
35:10
allow any sharing on the site. There's SharePoint settings, say
35:13
only the owner of the site, the owner of a group can share
35:15
anything on it. No, no breakaway permissions, no
35:18
sharing. It's everything's completely
35:20
tied to the membership of the group, which is tightly
35:21
controlled, right. So you do that as an example,
35:24
you can block downloads, you can write to protect content on that
35:27
site. So you can absolutely lock down
35:30
SharePoint and to the access management be entirely
35:33
controlled and limited to the intro group.
35:36
In fact, with new kind of user defined permissions and
35:39
SharePoint type that is entitled back by a rights protection
35:43
envelope, effectively you can literally allow downloading of
35:46
encrypted content that if someone loses access to the 365
35:51
group and SharePoint site, they'll lose access to the
35:53
downloaded content too. They won't be even encrypted
35:55
anymore. You can, we kind of go that far
35:58
and so we can do a ton of protection so that I can choose
36:02
to say yes. But because this is a tented
36:03
project, the owner controls everything effectively.
36:07
And by the way, I have a very much of trust verify model in
36:11
that we let people create things as I noted, but we'll not only
36:14
make you attached to things, we'll make you label things.
36:17
We also will double check to make sure you got it right.
36:19
So everything from Purview, DLP to scan for your patterns.
36:25
And hey, we found a password on this site in the file somewhere.
36:28
We're going to flag it. We're going to do something
36:29
about it. We run over sharing reports,
36:32
including what's now in in SharePoint advanced management
36:35
to say you shared this confidential site with half a
36:39
company that's not allowed. And we flag that and Bush
36:43
reports can look for that kind of thing.
36:45
So we can then take action. So I'd say it's there are times
36:49
that you're going to have a hard aggressive lockdown model and
36:52
there are times that you're going to do a trust with verify
36:55
model to say, I'm going to let people do things, but within
36:57
some boundary. And then I'm going to verify
36:59
that they got it right. And if I got it wrong, I'm going
37:01
to take action. David, I feel like when we all
37:06
talk about our 20 plus years and whatever we kind of date
37:10
ourselves. I'm going to give you a blast
37:13
from the past right here. So do you remember a product
37:15
called Moss Moss, which was essentially SharePoint, You
37:20
could build websites with it. Is there AI don't think Moss
37:25
around anymore. What is there a replacement?
37:29
What? What's the deal?
37:30
Well, SharePoint lets you build what's considered portals,
37:33
communication sites. And so in fact, within
37:36
Microsoft, our internal portals are all on SharePoint.
37:39
As an example, the construct of having a SharePoint platform
37:44
provide external sites doesn't exist right now, but internal
37:50
sites, absolutely right. So people as opposed to using
37:53
some other platform will normally be using SharePoint as
37:56
their web hosting for some communication site like our HR
38:00
portal, for example, and corporate portals, they're all
38:02
in, in tech web, as we call it, they're all on SharePoint.
38:05
And so, but they're different type of SharePoint.
38:07
So when you think about SharePoint from a, a
38:09
collaboration and teams perspective, that's kind of type
38:11
1. When you think of this other
38:13
type of cloud communication sites where you're building a
38:16
portal for, you know, providing information to your company,
38:19
that's kind of the other big type that we, we absolutely
38:21
still use. But what you might think of as
38:23
Moss as a kind of a, a communications front end, you
38:27
know, it's now everything from Viva includes everything now
38:30
from Viva Amplify and, and Viva Communications to of course
38:35
core, core communication sites in SharePoint.
38:40
So I mentioned durian that you've been with Microsoft for
38:42
25 years. So Speaking of age and aging
38:45
ourselves, I want to, I want to shift maybe a little more to the
38:49
future here. What are some of the things that
38:52
you see changing when it comes to this topic?
38:55
Either Entra group permissions, SharePoint sites like what is
38:59
and, and I'm not going to hold you like you're not the product
39:01
person, right? Is there not promises?
39:03
But how do you see this evolving over time?
39:06
Well, I, I think, you know, there's two themes and I think
39:09
one helping our employees get it right becomes one of the big
39:12
themes, right? And whether you think of it as
39:15
AI or you think that it is good intelligence against a service,
39:19
watching what employees are doing, helping steer employees
39:21
and the right behavior, helping make sure you're detecting and,
39:25
and, and almost fixing when something has gone wrong.
39:28
You know, that's kind of to me where I see a lot of this going
39:31
the constructs of when I say labeling and that we're kind of
39:33
going labeling everywhere that so more and more content and
39:37
things are getting labeled like we label a meeting, for example,
39:40
and that that meeting label will then define, you know,
39:43
potentially what the files for that meeting should be that come
39:47
out of the meeting. If you have a meeting recording,
39:48
it should be a sensitive as a meeting itself.
39:50
The identity management, again, you'll be limited based on a
39:55
label of what's allowed so that that highly confidential thing
39:58
will have rights protection tied to it, for example.
40:01
And so these things all fit together to me to be and again
40:05
to your point earlier. Your identity is absolutely the
40:07
Center for all of this, but I think that's a big part.
40:11
The other thing for me is of course as micro digital copilot
40:15
is one of our big things that we're working with and and
40:18
trying to enable. And as we envision where we're
40:21
going with copilot, you think of like data management and data
40:24
hygiene and and protection. That's kind of cornerstone.
40:28
AI is fantastic, but if you have bad or over overexposed
40:33
information, AI is going to surface it.
40:36
AI is not going to care, but it shouldn't show you something.
40:38
You have access to it, it's going to show it to you.
40:41
So getting permissions right, getting the memberships right,
40:44
getting identities right is absolutely cornerstone to good
40:47
and well managed AI. And that to me is a fundamental
40:49
part of our future. And and that, you know, when I
40:52
think about managing and governing our services, really
40:56
it's to make Copilot shine. So you took my copilot question
41:00
because that's what I wanted to ask you was how do you see this
41:04
kind of evolving with that? So I'm going to take it in
41:06
another direction. We're going to go backwards.
41:07
Is there a particular innovation or thing that happened, we'll
41:12
just call it in the SharePoint environment or the group
41:14
permission management, that kind of thing that you see as like,
41:17
Oh yeah, when we did that back in X, that really kind of
41:21
changed the game of how we're approaching this or made things
41:23
easier. Like, is there something that
41:24
stands out? I think I I'd pick on a coupled
41:28
key things. I think one, we are group
41:30
membership management for VP groups.
41:32
The fact that all of the engaged community for some organizations
41:35
automatically created constructed an intro we serve
41:37
right people. That's cornerstone us getting
41:41
labeling even tied to the interest of Microsoft 365
41:44
groups. Again, cornerstone the fact that
41:46
I can differentiate that highly confidential data from that
41:48
general general data. Those are things that make a big
41:51
difference in the IT organization that, you know, we
41:54
have some 100,000 SharePoint sites as an example.
41:57
You think of a volume. How do you know like that's why
42:00
labeling and you know, I, I get hung up on, on that kind of
42:03
conversation. People think I talk about
42:04
labeling a lot because otherwise how does IT know when
42:07
something's overshared you? IT is no way of no
42:09
differentiating that that massively shared file from
42:14
someone site from another unless you have to delineation labeling
42:18
in place to tell you by the way, this is highly confidential that
42:21
oversharing is probably wrong versus not.
42:23
And I think getting that kind of theme right was essential as we
42:26
kind of got on this journey with SharePoint that's allowed us to
42:30
do better trapping of when employees get it wrong and kind
42:33
of steer them in. So to me, those are kind of
42:35
cornerstones of things that I think about are really critical.
42:38
David, I'm going to take you back even further.
42:41
So this is kind of a fun one. So I met Steve Ballmer over a
42:48
decade ago. Of course, I remember that.
42:51
He's like a giant, right? He's a very large human being,
42:54
which I think you don't realize until you meet him in person.
42:58
But he's also a very nice man. So I think sometimes people
43:04
don't think about that when they think of him, but like, that's
43:09
what I was reminded of is just like, he was a gentle giant, if
43:13
you will. I've never met Bill Gates.
43:17
I've never met Paul Allen. I love the pictures of them,
43:20
like when they first started the company because Paul's got that
43:23
big grizzly beard and Bill's kind of like this younger, like
43:27
lean kind of guy. But I'm wondering, have you ever
43:32
met any of those 3? I've I've met Dill in passing,
43:37
but not like never had any presentation.
43:39
Same thing with bomber. I've been in meetings with
43:41
Bomber and and Sacha. So I mean, these things are are
43:45
it's great to be in those conversations.
43:47
It's great to watch them in action Is like, you know, not
43:51
only is Bomber and and now Sacha and incredibly, you know, I
43:56
think almost at your point, gentle giants, but kind of what,
44:00
but I'd also say why isn't smart, but asking the right
44:02
questions And that's what you want your leaders, right, is the
44:06
right questions you've asked right, You know, challenge
44:08
assumptions. Bomber did that and now Sacha
44:13
does that in spades. Like the the questions and and
44:17
continue to learn and self improve.
44:19
That's a cornerstone of our culture, right as Microsoft and
44:22
I think we've evolved over time to get that our our CE OS over
44:25
the years have been continuing to build that the cultural
44:29
improvement, which you know, I'm, I'm excited about and I
44:31
I've watched it happen. I've wait watched for the
44:33
company go from a very and sometimes difficult culture at
44:38
times where you you have, you know, inflicting potentially
44:42
conflicting situations to where you know, it is much more of a
44:46
one Microsoft kind of challenge assumptions to make yourself
44:49
make the company better make do growth mindset kind of mentality
44:52
essentially would call it right. So, yeah, I, I love where we are
44:56
and our leaders have, I think back to your point, grown and
45:00
and it's just, it's just amazing to this history we've had and
45:04
how we've changed so much as a company over the years, but.
45:08
An interesting ride for sure. So I'm I'm happy you're able to
45:11
spend some time with us. I know it's a for us.
45:13
It's a Friday, late afternoon for you.
45:15
I want to get the weekend started before we let you go.
45:18
What do you do for fun outside of this?
45:21
I think you mentioned you have some travel.
45:22
Maybe you're going to Hawaii. Yeah, I know.
45:24
I, I, I, I'm a big travel fan. I love to travel tropical places
45:28
in particular. So, you know, if you put me on a
45:30
beach, you know, I'll, I'll happily follow a turtle kind of
45:33
deal, you know, go, go snorkeling, follow a turtle, go
45:37
diving, go, go explore a little bit, right, Those kind of
45:40
things. But that's my, my happy place,
45:43
right. So, you know, when I'm in the
45:45
Seattle Redmond area, it's like it's cold.
45:47
It's, you know, not not nice. Now when I travel, yeah, I'm
45:50
happy. Is there a particular place that
45:54
you like to go the best? Like what's your favorite spot
45:56
to go to? I'm, I'm still a Maui fan, kind
46:00
of Polly Maui. That's my home base basically
46:03
when I'm, when I'm in the islands.
46:05
But you know, anything tropical with beautiful sand, you know,
46:08
I, that's nice water that's fits my place, right?
46:12
So almost anywhere. I mean, I, I've been to many,
46:16
many places like that. You know, I've been to Tahiti
46:19
and lots of, lots of great tropical destinations.
46:21
But for me, Hawaii and Maui is why still home base, right?
46:26
All right, so you're a veteran. I've never been to Hawaii.
46:28
Give me a pro tip that I can use to say OK you know this is not
46:32
some newbie coming over from the mainland.
46:36
I I think be open, be kind for Maui.
46:40
I mean, Maui, the people, the place, respect for the
46:44
environment, the IT, it's really cornerstone.
46:47
You come in as a, a tourist, you're not going to get, it's
46:50
not as quite as you want to be. I, I guess I should say, not not
46:54
come in as a tourist, but come in as someone who wants to
46:57
embrace the area and, and, you know, embrace the culture,
46:59
embrace the beauty, you know, and, and not running to go to
47:03
the mall, not running to go to some restaurant, right?
47:07
Like just enjoy the time, enjoy the people, enjoy the culture,
47:10
right? That's, that's to me, the
47:12
Hawaiian thing, right? You know the spirit of Aloha is
47:14
real. Jim, have you ever been to
47:17
Hawaii? I have and I've been to Maui and
47:21
I love Maui and my I've only been there once with my pro tip
47:26
would be I'm just as outside of all the tips that everybody will
47:30
give you. You got to be on island time.
47:33
If you go there and you're like, all right, chop, chop got to,
47:37
you know, we're going to get breakfast and we're going to
47:38
drive all the way around the island.
47:40
Then we're going to do XY and Z. You're you're probably not going
47:43
to be happy there. I'll still be happy there, but
47:47
you might make everybody else miserable.
47:50
Go there, be on island time and then you know the tips that
47:54
everybody will give you, you got to try the banana bread.
47:57
So there's this. You can drive all the way around
47:59
Maui and like you feel like you're in different different
48:04
places at different parts of the island because of the amount of
48:06
rain that they get and stuff like that.
48:08
And there's also a big thing which I've not done, but when I
48:11
get back I want to do, which is you can get on the bike and go
48:15
around this volcano and basically you don't have to
48:18
pedal because the car drives you to the top.
48:20
And then you just ride the bike down the volcano and grab it
48:24
like gravity do the work. But you can, you can rent a
48:29
cheap or something like that, drive all the way around the
48:32
island. And there are people who live on
48:34
these like little plantations and they just, I don't know if
48:39
you would call it like survival farming or whatever, but they,
48:42
they basically just like live there and they do the farming
48:45
and then they make the banana bread and sell it on the
48:47
roadside and it's just super cool.
48:50
If you haven't been there, you definitely should put it on your
48:52
list. Oh no.
48:54
Banana bread, Yes. I'll say you're getting a head,
48:56
not from David. So definitely you're hitting
48:58
that cord there. Yeah, and, and, you know, you're
49:01
right on the island time thing. Absolutely.
49:03
Just chill, you know, that's what I mean.
49:05
I'm follow a turtle, respectfully of course.
49:10
Yeah, respectfully, that sounds like something I can get behind
49:12
when I go on vacation. I I don't typically like to have
49:15
an itinerary. It's kind of like, all right,
49:16
we'll just kind of do whatever today.
49:17
So island time sounds like the the perfect spot for me.
49:21
So OK, we're going to let you go.
49:23
David, we appreciate you spending some time with us.
49:25
We're going to wrap things up for this week.
49:28
Let's see what else. I'm going to have your LinkedIn
49:30
in our show notes, if that's all right.
49:31
People have questions about things or whatever it may be,
49:35
you know, feel free to reach out.
49:36
And then I hope you'll come back and and share some more tips and
49:40
tricks from the the wizard himself at some point in the
49:44
future. So with that, we'll can leave it
49:46
for this week. You can find us on the web,
49:48
idacpodcast.com. If you like what you heard, hit
49:51
that like and subscribe button, whether you're on YouTube or
49:54
whatever podcast, if you don't like it, hit like anyway and
49:57
then send it to a friend and trick them into listening to it.
49:59
We don't care as long as people are listening or watching.
50:01
That works for us. And yeah, connect with us on
50:03
LinkedIn if you have questions, comments, ideas for shows,
50:06
things like that. Jim and I read all that stuff
50:08
and we try to take that under advisement for future episodes.
50:11
So thanks everybody for watching and or listening and we'll talk
50:15
with you all in the next one. You've been listening to
50:20
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
50:24
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
50:28
But in the meantime, hit the website at
50:31
identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
50:37
the Center.