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Forgiveness As A Spiritual Reset with Moustapha Ozturk · The Elsa Kurt Show

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: His guest, Mustafa Oster, has lived a fascinating life journey that started in the construction industry in England and eventually turned into a decades-long search for deeper meaning, peace, and spiritual understanding.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: His new book, Invoking the Holy Spirit, explores forgiveness, inner peace, perception, and what he believes it means to reconnect with God on a much deeper level.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, hello there, sir.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: How are you today?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling great, Alta.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks very much.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling good.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: Wonderful.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_04: I am too.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm in a good mood.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: All of the good things.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited to hear about your book and your journey.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_04: This is one of my favorite things to do, just hear these author journeys and share really intriguing books, which your book sounds so intriguing.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: But I want to go first into a little bit of your background.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: You spent years working in construction and living what most people, and I don't mean this in an insulting way, I mean it in a wonderful, peaceful way, an ordinary life, right?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but there was a specific moment where you realized that something deeper was happening spiritually.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um I I had a breakup in a relationship back in 1988, Elsa, and um it shook me quite a bit, and uh it got me on into a set of patterns of you know, working late at night, uh working early in the mornings to and going out late at night, that sort of thing.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And in the end, I um reached a point of desperation several months after you know my partner left me.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: And um I screamed in the back of my head, into in my into my head, I said, God help me understand.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and he certainly did, because the next day I had these strange phone calls started to happen at work, but typically the caller would say, ring up and say, Tell Mr.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Ford to come home, his dinner is ready.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Strange phone calls.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: This went on for a whole month.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the phone calls would say, We're coming to the site with a baby, we're gonna bring a six-month-old baby to the site or a six-week-old baby, this sort of thing.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Always frightening the security guard, and um, they would sort of want to, you know, threaten to call the police, that sort of thing.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what it was like.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And um, it went for a whole month.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I, you know, yeah.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: I had one call in particular.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I remember it said, Um, tell Musa, the baby swallowed the marble.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it was shocking phone calls, you know.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time I hadn't uh, you know, a partner left me, like I said earlier, and um I was basically a single man, but uh, you know, so that was my life then.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then the culmination of the uh these phone calls, which made me think this was something more than a crank call, these were more and there was like over 20 phone calls over a one-month period.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the lot and the last phone call was uh I I'd gone to a girlfriend's house that evening and uh she didn't want to see me because um I told her before, maybe the day or two before, I was gonna go to Spain to live for six months.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I must have upset her because she wouldn't even have the door to me.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is late at night.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I decided to leave her doorstep and I went into my car and drove back to my home in Finchley in North London.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: On the way there, I had this strange thought because I've been studying the Bible a little bit, then I've been looking for answers and various other books.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I remember the quote in Genesis where it says, Let us make man in our own image.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then it suddenly clicked.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I studied evolution before.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: I realized at that instant this planet we're living on, this life, all these lies we're living, are replicas.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: We are they're copies, but this is not the original earth.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I've heard to my book, I called it the embryonic earth, is the original, the original earth, and uh God wants us to know we're his children, he wants us to know the original place where we came from.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I believe that you know, since the since the phone calls, I mean, I have um developed my ideas further.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: But on that particular night, at that point, I decided to swing the car around and go head straight over to work because it was getting really late now, and I didn't want to be late for work in the morning, so I thought I'll just sleep in the car.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I arrived at work, and this is now, I think if I remember right, it was about half past two in the morning before mobile phone calls, elsewhere.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so nobody had mobile phone, but well, there was a big, chunky mobile phone which was in, you know, with a battery the size of a suitcase, but nobody, ordinary people didn't have mobile phones anyway.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I got to work and uh the security guard was shocked to see me.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: He said to me, I just put the phone down again to a caller, and she said, Tell Mr.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Come home, he's on the way to the site.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, wow, wow.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: That was the last phone call I had, and that just proved that nobody knew I was heading to that site.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: No one.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: That is that is amazing.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: That is so amazing.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and it had to obviously, of course, been so disturbing and confusing, you know, all of all of these things and and not knowing what any of it meant.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: And and I'm so fascinated that, you know, one of the things that you did throughout this process was to turn to the Bible and and to read the words.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_04: So um you can't help but believe that you know something was leading you to these deeper discoveries, right?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um exactly, exactly.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and now your book it came from these personal notes, personal notes that you were writing to yourself uh during like train rides to work, yes.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_04: And um, at what point did you realize that this is something that is supposed to become a book?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, thank you.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I started studying this book um written by Helen Shukman, who was a professor at Columbia University in New York.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I studied this book before back in 2010.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't get a lot out of it, be honest with you.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be in my, you know, since I've realized you have to be in the right state of mind for this sort of reading and um to connect with what the message he was teaching anyway.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: So as I was studying the book, I would start making these text messages to myself.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: WhatsApp messages, little notes for myself.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: And uh my journey typically, the first leg of it would be an hour long, and uh I would arrive at London Bridge Station.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: But shortly after starting these um study notes, I noticed I'd arrive at London Bridge Station, a deep sense of peace.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then I realized, you know, further along, this is not even my handwriting, it was like there was a determined somebody inside me helping me to write my study notes, if you know what I mean.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um now funny enough, this is the way Helen Shookman describes how she received the knowledge that she's written in her book, The Course in Miracles.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so um this is how it how the book sort of came to be.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't intentionally write the book, um, but my study notes, I shared them with a friend, and my friend got a lot out of it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: It changed her life completely.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because in my book, my essential message is to forgive all your anxieties and worries away.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: And in doing so, you create space in your mind.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like as if you're creating space in DNA to insert God's thoughts, if you understand what I'm saying.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, and that's what God does.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: He jumped.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that's the um how I understand it works now.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: I understand that if you give God a chance, he will jump in and help you, and he will change your life.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: That's so true.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_04: And and I think that is truly the at least one of the top most difficult things for people to wrap their their minds and their hearts around, which is forgiveness.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: It is, I think that is the the one thing I feel like we struggle with so much and so constantly.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: And and it not just forgiving others, but forgiving ourselves and and just you know, having that kind of peace.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I think people misunderstand forgiveness also when it comes to forgiving others, right?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_04: Do you do you find that people have a misunderstanding?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely today with my wife, you know, she doesn't understand it still.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think she really understands it.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's not so much you're forgiven the the thing that's happened, that's done and gone.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's the it's the anxiety and the pain that you have latched onto.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you've got to let go of.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you've got to forgive away.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you don't figure it away, it develops into thoughts, worries, and patterns of behavior that will haunt you.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: And uh you need to let go of it, detach from it.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, why do you think it is that we struggle so hard to let go?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why would we want to hang on to something that's so detrimental to our lives?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the ego is a funny thing, you know.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: The ego is a it's like a ghost.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a um it clings on to fear and uh it it constantly feels like it's under attack.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And these these experiences you have, you know, and your reaction to them are like a comfort, if you like.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_04: I I actually makes a lot of sense to me.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: In my book, I talk about um, you know, in the in the wild, you know, if you're uh if you're an animal and you're uh up against it, you know, even a human being, you know, an animal, or not an animal, a primitive man's phase, for example, if you're living in the jungle, sort of you can imagine it, can't you?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're up against it.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's no good being in your head.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: You need to be in the moment to survive and to get the kill, whatever it is you've got to do to survive.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um, that can only be by being present.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: But uh most of the time we're not present, we're too comfortable, we're fed, we're we're and we're living in the thoughts that will sort of keep us prisoner, you know?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: Most of our minds are so um noisy and cluttered, right?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: And you talk about this, of course, in the book.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I know so many people are finding that so familiar and so relatable, of course.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_04: What are some practical things that you personally do to quiet your mind when when life gets overwhelming?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, take this interview, for example, yeah.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: This is great.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is this is a classic example.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've written up a little mantra for myself for today because um I didn't want to be nervous, you know.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, what I do is I take ownership of my multiverse.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: I in my book I'll talk about the multiverse.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: I believe honestly, you know, Elsa, that we are not this tiny little speck of dust individually floating around in the cosmos.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: We are more than that, and I believe that God has gifted all of us our own multiverse.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, what I do every day is I want to take ownership of my multiverse, you know.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I talk about this in my book, I talk about being up front on the stage.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: You are the star of the show, yeah.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is your life, own it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the things that will make you cower and give you stage right, if you like, life right, is anxieties and worries.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And they will prevent you doing what you want to do, and you will create instead of the abundance that you want in your life, you you end up creating the same old patterns that you've been used to, what you're stuck in.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Until you climb out of the fear of a particular activity or event or something you want to achieve, you will stay stuck.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that so much.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: And and I I think you know, it's one of those things I've heard it's been said better, but I'll say the best I can that it's like your mind will believe whatever you tell it to.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: So if you tell it you should be frightened and anxious and worried, you will be, you know.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: But if you tell it that, you know, otherwise, it has no choice but to believe what you tell it.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: So you have to be very careful of what you tell yourself to do, right?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let it go, and just remind yourself this is your life, you know, this is you're the style of the show.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it's I love that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it is.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, another thing I find really interesting um is that you describe spirituality less as a religion and more as an awareness and a connection.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how would you explain that difference to someone who's never thought about it that way?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you if you can get away from the um the dogma, the politics of religion, yeah.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and just find your true self in peace.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, find that peaceful moment, meditate perhaps a little bit.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you'll start realizing, you know, if you create space in your mind, you'll you'll cry you'll start realizing there is this presence in you, and it's closer than your heartbeat.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: It literally is closer than your heartbeat.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, you'll find that yeah, you'll soon find um I mean I was recently baptized else.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, um about two weeks ago now, two, three weeks ago.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_04: Congratulations, that's beautiful.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, yeah.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um you know, on the on the morning of my baptism, which uh sorry, on the on the on the week before my baptism was Easter week and uh Easter Sunday.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um that night I had a dream and I dreamt and uh and I there was uh several people standing around a grave and I walked over towards this grave and I looked down, then my son was in the grave, my youngest son.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and he and I reached out, I reached over to him, I put my hand down there and said, Erin, wake up.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And he stepped out of the grave.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now this was Easter Sunday.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: I woke up and I saw the connection straight away.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_05: Sure.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: My first baptism, you know, I've only just started going to church in November this year, uh last year, and God sent you some little signs.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, you've got to be attentive and you've got to look at and just start, you know, looking at these things, you know, and and and he helps you, he nudges you along and and he's there for you, you know.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm known to meet that that uh that Sunday morning, I realized when I told my wife about the dream, my son's been missing for three days.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: He disappeared.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he's he's gone off grid off since Friday that week.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: But uh fortunately, um you know I sent a text message out, emailed to his landlord, and we located him.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: He was hanging off in um Cornwall.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_04: An adventurer, huh?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, so great for a parent's heart, right?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: So great for a parent's heart when you have an adventurous child.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, the dream was about um it was about the resurrection, yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: Of course, yeah, yeah.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so amazing.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there's so many moments in life that if we're if we're fortunate, we realize that they are something deeper and they mean something deeper and more.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you specifically um believe that you had direct moments of divine intervention, um, including a construction accident where you felt warned to hit the deck.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, absolutely.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: Tell me about that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my goodness.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, this is uh back in 1994, if I remember correctly.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was a hot summer's day.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was in my office, and the one of the workers there said, Aussie, there's a fire on the roof.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: So this building's right next door to Charing Cross Stage, it's right in the centre of London.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I legged it to the roof with my colleague Toby.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: We grabbed fire extinguishers on the on the way up there.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then we raced up to the uh to the towards the fire, which was at the other end of the roof, and uh you know it was it was it was horrible.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was um gas bottles were on fire.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: There were three gas bottles with jets of horizontal jets of flames coming off them.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: The ash felt machine was on fire, which was the cause of the fire.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, we quickly entered the fire extinguishers uh into the um flames, which had no effect at all.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Meantime, we could hear this the fire engines coming up the strand.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I looked, I I said to my colleagues, and I said, uh, let's leave this to the fire brigade.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: So he went back off in the direction we came, and I decided to go pick up my radio and walk a different route.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I grabbed my radio and I was walking behind these empty gas bottles, a row of them, and suddenly a voice hit uh sounded in my head, hit the deck.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I instantly flew to the floor.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: I threw myself to the floor, and boom, the first in that instant the message was received, the first gas bottle exploded.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, and I picked myself up and I started legging it towards where my colleague was, and then boom, boom, it was it was a nightmare.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was like a scene out of a action, you know.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_04: We did the one thing that we struggle so hard to do, which is actually listen.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: When we when we get that right, like so many of us, and I include myself in that, you know, I can't, I can I can think back on a few distinct times where I was hearing, I was hearing the message, and I was doubting it and I wasn't listening, and I regretted it.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: So your regret would have been quite different than some of the ones I would have had.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: You would we wouldn't be here having this conversation, obviously, um, had you not listened to that voice.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, again, we use the words divine intervention.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I know that there's I I know we have you know, non-believers out there that that listen and tune in, and and that's absolutely a choice that you can make.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_04: I can't comprehend the choice.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_04: I can't when you have so much life experience under your belt and so many things showing you.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um and again, and I have to say, I just have to go back quickly and say, I I love the uh I love what you say about um not religion but connection.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, that's something that speaks personally to my heart and my understanding of you know what it is to know God and to have a relationship um with God.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: And and I think so many people get caught up in that religion, that word religion.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so many people have uh negative feelings towards church, uh, you know, and what that represents to them in their minds.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, that, you know, sometimes it's whether it's um rigidity or hypocrisy or any of those things.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_04: But I I do I feel like you can you just cannot go wrong when you seek that direct relationship, that direct connection, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_04: And I love that that's something that you you talk about and emphasize um in in your book.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and also that you speak openly about difficult seasons in your life, uh, stress and loneliness, relationship struggles, exhaustion.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um, looking back now, knowing what you know and believing what you believe, do you think that suffering was part of what pushed you to this this spiritual awakening that you've had?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same with everybody.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll use this analogy now that uh a lot.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's um it's like um we're knowing of good and evil for you, uh Elsa Army.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: This is the world where we know of good and evil.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is like this is the crucible, it's like a crucible of fire where diamonds are forged.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Where new souls blossom into God's children, you know.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is where it happens.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, you you you you have to you have to be courageous.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's what God wants us to all to do is to when we uh when we go about our uh daily challenges, what he looks at us for uh what he gives us the daily challenges.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: What you what rather than seeing it as a challenge is is what I do now every day at least is um is to is to um I actually um look at everybody and everything every gift as a gift.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's the only way to look at it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look at everybody as a gift, is it you'll find you you you're awakening the courage inside you immediately, and you're connecting with God at that point.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: You've you've invoked the Holy Spirit, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: And that is what my point is.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: Especially those people, I think, maybe.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: You need to there's only one way, and this is what Jesus taught, didn't he?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: He said, you know, if to love everybody, your enemy as well, you've got to treat everybody as a gift.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, that kind of leads into the the next thing that you talk about also in the book, which is um non-judgment, our next hardest thing, right?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: Next to, if maybe not even more, than forgiveness, non-judgment is wow, is that a challenge for people, huh?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: That is a prison.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: That is a problem.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's like chains around you.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you put your judgments build your prison walls.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um and what it does, worst of all, the elsewhere, it prevents God's thoughts coming into your mind.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: See, this is where God in my book I say, this is where God helps us, you know, you you give your mind to Him, you give your mind to Christ God.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: That is the only way.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um if you're gonna be filling your head up with rubbishy, you know, pointless judgments, which mean nothing, I'm not gonna affect your life, not uh other than make you miserable.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um you need to let go of judgments, and uh and if you do, Christ will come in there and it will give you new outcomes, you know, your patterns, your you know, your poor patterns, your your your your life patterns start to change.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what I found a lot with my friend, you know, who's been practicing this a lot, and and in my own life, obviously, but my friend also, she's making massive changes, you know, big improvements.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you mentioned your your wife um earlier.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it how does she feel about your journey?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: And you're I mean, first of all, she just has to be so proud of you and your accomplishment and and everything.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, is she do you find that she's at the same place?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: Does she need you mentioned um with uh there was something you mentioned I'm not drawing a blank that she was trying, oh uh forgiveness, that she was still working on the concept of forgiveness.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I would imagine you've been very helpful to her on her journey as well, yes.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean my my wife and I have a very fiery relationship.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh it's it's not a um she challenges you then.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a perfect marriage, I don't think.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, it we we we both say, you know, we we talk very honestly with each other and we say it as it is, and um and I and I and I I get you know I I I take the bait and I end up losing it, you know, because I've you know for that same reason I haven't um I've got loads of uh if you like unburied it for unforgiveness is still under the surface, you know.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um and this is what we have, isn't it?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: And um it's getting them all out and and dealing with them and putting the the light of your you know the your the your Christ light, if you like, yeah, shining it on your issues and uh getting rid of them.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_04: I I think that's the most human and and relatable part of you know everything that you're we've been talking about, because these are all the same struggles that.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: We all have.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I, you know, I don't think if all of us or any of us have it all figured out perfectly and are doing it perfectly, then we simply wouldn't need Jesus, right?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_04: We would have it all figured out, but we we don't, we can't, we won't.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: And that's why we continuously keep giving it over and and looking in that direction to help us daily um, you know, just simply become the better versions of ourselves.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_04: And and some days, some moments we're we're going to fail miserably, and other times we're we're going to do a really good job.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's a it's a constant uh thing.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: And and I love that your book actually gives that reassurance because um, you know, who wants to listen to somebody that says, I've got it all figured out, I have all the answers, and I'm doing everything right because we know we know better, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: This is I I love the the honesty and and um the humble nature of your book.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: And um I love that you that you share all of this with others who are having the same struggles.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: It's just it's just that beacon of light that says, Hey, there's there is a way to navigate through this, um, and and not only be such a uh a benefit to yourself, but such a benefit to the people around you, right?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I got caught out um, you know, about a year ago I got caught out.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was doing a patrol on my site before I retired, a site tour, and um a chap um approached me in the in the high street and he said to me, um, and he saw that my the logo of my jacket, the company I worked for, he said, I need a copy of a copy of your public liability insurance.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I says, Yeah, no problem.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I pointed him in the direction of the office.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but that wasn't good enough for him.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: And after about 10 minutes at the time, I said, I've got to go, I've got to do my job, and I've got to and I but that wasn't good enough for him.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: And he and he immediately took his phone out and started filming in and and uh and uh you know throwing accusations at me.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, wow.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh boy, yeah, and he's and he put the phone right up close to my face and and my body reacted, and I my hand pushed his phone away, and then he decided to push my body and I fell to the floor.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: It got out it got out of and chaos in in in seconds, you know, and all you know, and then he followed me for the next five minutes, filming me and throwing more accusations about my company and me.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and you know, in reflection now, all I had to do was say, no problem, sir, and then flog march me or just voluntarily taking to the office and then uh give him his certificate.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you share a certificate.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like Jesus says, if you're if you if you if you enemy asked for your um coat, give him your shirt as well.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, so much easier said than done.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_04: And listen, that just made you even more relatable than ever.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes we get caught.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, sometimes you do.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: And but you know, that goes back to the forgiveness, you know, right?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like we we can bring it all around.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_04: And we can bring it all around to these um, you know, really, I think crucial principles that that you lay out all throughout your book for for just um just everyday life and and improvement really and connection.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_04: And and I think that's right, and correct me if I'm wrong, that's truly the the core of this too, to make this personal connection and um and just having that changes everything for you, right?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's an it's a game changer, yeah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Absolute game changer.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, I cannot imagine living without Christ in my life now.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you're living in the upgraded version of life instead of the basic version.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what a great way to put it.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna I'm gonna use that, but I'll credit you with it.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, no, yeah, yeah, right.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um the price, and the price is forgiveness.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's all you've got to do.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's all that's asked for you.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's all that Jesus Christ asks for you is to forgive.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And He will iron out all your problems, you know.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I think a great distinction probably to make too is that like forgiveness may not change the person you're forgiving, but it changes you in the best possible way, right?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_04: It gives you the a piece like you will like you never knew before.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's so life-changing.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um last question for you.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: What do you hope readers walk away with after reading invoking the Holy Spirit?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: I want to I want to um give a re in my book, I give a reason why we're here.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I want that conversation to be had that um there's a reason why God created or is given us this experience, this knowing of good and evil.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I honestly believe that um, you know, he wants us to know how he evolved humankind into its perfect form, which is Jesus Christ.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's what he's done.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's evolved us.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: So my book, the conversation basically is to accept our situation, accept the good and evil that happens in our lives, it won't last forever.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and uh and accept that reason there is a reason, good reason for it.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um and I want the people to stop thinking that um there's a sort of person who's gonna come and save them.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: You have to let your own salvation come to you, if you know what I mean, through Jesus Christ.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: So Christ is the means for your salvation and live in the center of your being, the Holy Spirit.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I want them people to realize that and uh you know, don't wait for judgment day.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's never going to happen in your life.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: What will happen for you is you will receive Christ when you accept him.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and and it's only when you forgive and don't judge, you know, be indef indefensive, you know, those sort of uh qualities.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I'd love people to have this conversation really amongst uh uh above all else.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, wonderful, wonderful, timeless messages you have in this book.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um tell everyone where they can find it.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so um well, you can go to Amazon, it can be found there.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's all all over the place now.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's um Walmart, I understand, in the United States, uh Waterstones, those sort of places.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's available in uh paperback, hardback, it's available as an audio book, and it's also um also available in on Kindle.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: So you can download it to your phone.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Amazon and uh all you know, uh what would else Apple, all these places, Spotify.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: Terrific.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: Everywhere, everywhere, anywhere and everywhere.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: No excuses.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: You can find this book.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, of course, of course, I'll have the link in the show notes for you guys too.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_04: You'll be able to click right on it and go right to it.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I hope that you do.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I I think it's uh I think it's such a valuable read for for anyone who's uh seeking help with those, you know, things that we're I mean, listen, everybody needs the book because we're all struggling with forgiveness, with non-judgment, you know, with all of these questions and and things that um are weighing us down.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: So um I I I think it's a wonderful thing.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's especially useful.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Prayer is such a useful thing to do.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: So true.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, they do.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I enjoyed this so much.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for taking time to sit and talk with me and our audience.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I wish you tremendous uh success with the book and and more to come, I hope.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: Do you have anything in the works?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: I am, yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm writing a second book at the moment.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, I didn't intend to write the first book, but I'm I'm right I seem to be making notes again.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: That's the start.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's the start.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: You know what's next.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we look forward to it.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_04: We'll be keeping an eye out for that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: And thank you again for joining us.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_04: All right, guys.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you all for joining us, and we'll see you in the next episode.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: Take care.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: You've got a story worth sharing.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's time to tell it well.
• 29:52
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• 30:00
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• 30:07
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• 30:16
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