Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / ISSTD Conference Recaps (2020 Fall Virtual Conference)

Transcript

ISSTD Conference Recaps (2020 Fall Virtual Conference) · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: So much has happened at ISSTD this fall. I really need to just catch you up and share a few pieces of several things that I've experienced that you need to know about, whether you are a survivor and just have more questions about these things or want to know more or so that I can just share insights that I got that were helpful for us. Or if you are a clinician and you are not a member of ISSTD, you are missing out. The classes and webinars and different opportunities that we have been able to learn from this fall have been outstanding. I'm not even exaggerating.
• 1:43
  I've not been asked to share this. They've not told me to share this. I'm just telling you, it has been fantastic. So those of you who are clinicians, please, please, please consider joining ISSTD and gaining access to all these resources. So much is happening.
• 2:02
  The first conference that we went to virtually, of course, that we wanna tell you about was the ISSTD regional conference that was held in Kentucky with Robert Mueller as the speaker. It was so good, you guys. It was so good, and I would love for him to be on the podcast. I learned so many things from him. The biggest thing he talked about in the beginning was how important it is to slow down in therapy.
• 2:32
  Now this actually helped me understand a lot because we spent three years with our therapist in Oklahoma doing nothing, except it turns out she was right. We were actually doing a lot the whole time, mainly learning how to tolerate the little bits that we were doing. And so we actually were not wasting our time or her time. Well, maybe her time. No.
• 2:57
  It actually turns out that she was really good at this piece. So as he was trying to teach about this, I kind of had a frame of reference for it. He talked about not telling too much too soon because we have to be able to contain what comes up. And so if we jump in too directly, then it gets overwhelming. So if you think back to the whole window of tolerance stuff, as unpleasant as therapy can be, and I will be the first one to say that I hate therapy.
• 3:32
  But as unpleasant as therapy can be, you guys, the idea is to get better. The idea is to feel better. The idea is to let things go and grow and move beyond the old ways that have kept us trapped because of what has happened to us. The idea is not to traumatize ourselves with trauma. The idea is not to traumatize ourselves worse or more than what we have already been through.
• 4:08
  Right? So he talked a lot about containment and a lot about how we need that safe holding environment to contain the things that come up and not just content, you guys. Like, when he talked about tolerating stuff, he wasn't just talking about memory specific. Remember, we have learned so much about the brain this year from ISSTD. And remember, it is not just about the content of the memory.
• 4:41
  It's also the affect of the memory. It's also or or the feelings it's also the feelings that go with it or the sensations from it or even the patterns of interactions that we're not even aware of. And all of these things are stored differently in our brain in different places. That's because trauma does not get stored like regular memories. So when we're talking about containment and being able to slow down so that we can tolerate and process and feel safe about what going on and where we're at and now time and all of these things that we've learned, it's actually way bigger than that.
• 5:22
  It's not just trying to figure things out and put pieces together. It's noticing how we feel doing that. It's being aware of the impact as we do that. It's all of these layers together, and everything he talked about was slow down. When we don't, those defense mechanisms kick in one way or the other, and that's when things go wrong in therapy or go wrong after you leave your session in therapy.
• 5:56
  So he talked about one of the most important things for a survivor to find is a clinician who can help slow things down so that as you're in the process of therapy, you can be safe in therapy, not just safe because it's not the past, not just oriented, but also able to keep things at a level where you feel safe and comfortable. So this was really helpful to me, and it showed me one of the really good things about my experience in therapy in Oklahoma and with a therapist in Missouri. Both of them were really, really good at this piece, and it helped me hold on to that framework with my new therapist that we're working with now. That it's not just plowing through everything, but really formulating the whole experience and tolerating things and containing them. So I hope that makes sense.
• 7:00
  He could explain it better, of course, but I hope that that makes sense. So when we're talking about this, the difference that this makes for me is that when I'm in therapy with a therapist who does not know about containment or know how to slow things down, everything overwhelms me and bleeds through. Sometimes it's called flooding. It's that kind of feeling. Right?
• 7:25
  Either with content from memories or feelings that you don't know how to control or where they're coming from or why they're coming up, everything feels too big. The same thing can happen when you're not in therapy or that's part of what was hard why we were struggling having to change therapists and find a new good therapist. When you don't have that support or that help slowing you down and containing the experience of tolerating what's going on because it's not just a cognitive exercise. It's not about how gifted you are in understanding things. It's not about how clever you are to be able to step back and look at things from a mature perspective.
• 8:12
  It's not about how big your feelings are even. It's literally the neurobiology of what's going on internally as you do all of those things. So when we don't slow down or don't have a good therapist that can help us contain the process itself and the experience of it and the trauma itself and the impact of the trauma, all these layers, then we get too much flooding and we end up traumatizing ourselves in the process of trying to heal from our trauma. But when I have a therapist who is good at containment or helping me slow down in therapy, that looks like knowing that what I'm working on in therapy, being able to address therapeutic things, learning to recognize that outside of session so that even if I can't stop something or trace down a feeling or a memory or a fragment of something that comes up or gets triggered, even if I can't stop it or trace it or figure it out all on my own because it's okay to ask for help, you guys, I can contain it enough to wait until therapy to deal with it, or I can contain it enough that I can maintain functioning so that I can still be a good mom, so that I can still pay attention in class, so that I can still manage my workload, so that I can maintain functioning even though there's all these things going on the background.
• 9:54
  And you guys, that's different than trying to function by suppressing all of that or by pushing all of that away or by dissociating from it or pretending it's not there or avoiding it. This is different. This acknowledges it. This contains it. This holds it safe and holds you safe and holds whoever inside is involved with it safe until those needs can be noticed and reflected and met in attuned, safe ways as part of the therapeutic process.
• 10:32
  He also talked a lot about the therapeutic relationship and how it's more than just rapport, that you cannot do stage two work until there's safety in the relationship itself. So he talked about relational trauma. He talked about ruptures and repairs, things that we learned several years ago all the way back in the Susan P. Spannett interview. So if you wanna go back to listen to those episodes, there's more about that there.
• 11:06
  But he said specifically, you cannot do stage two work without safety in the therapeutic relationship and how that is more than just the rapport you have with a client or with your therapist. And as part of that, he pointed out that part of why sometimes grounding doesn't work is because it is meant to help with dysregulation. It is not meant to help build safety in the treatment relationship. This actually blew me away because I've seen this a lot, I've experienced this a lot of why can I not get myself together the way that you want me to or the way that you're saying I should? Or why are you dismissing my crisis that I still feel or my big feelings that I can't regulate the way you want.
• 12:07
  All these things where I get shame in therapy because I can't have the positive outlook that you're talking about or get grounded the way that you're talking about. Because that does not actually help with the relationship. That only helps with dysregulation in the big feelings or in disorientation or in the neurological response of, like, cascade of defenses that Christine Forner talked about in her episode when she was on the second time on the podcast. Also, another interview to listen to if you haven't yet, go back and find that one. If you have, go listen to it again.
• 12:50
  In those moments of dysregulation, that's when grounding helps. But when there is something that is not safe in the therapeutic relationship, or while you're still building safety in the therapeutic relationship, grounding was not intended to help with that. It doesn't have anything to do with safety. This just blew me away, and that's one of the things I would love to talk to him about more on the podcast. And then as part of focusing on safety and relationships, he talked a lot about how we must take clients' suffering seriously.
• 13:31
  He talked about how we as survivors have such a huge amount of shame that we don't even wanna be called survivors. Like, there's no good word for it. Because even the word survivor defines us by our trauma. And yet, it also is a word that is an umbrella term used to unite us collectively so that we can recognize each other. So it's kind of challenging, but he said that only 25% self identify as being abused even when they already can say that they were.
• 14:09
  Let me say that again. Shame is such a big issue that even people who are aware of their own trauma, only 25% will self identify as being abused. But that what is so powerful about talking about our trauma is that it explains something happened to us as opposed to being blamed for our behavior. So the symptoms that we show, the struggles we have in relationships, the challenge it is to stay present, all of the hard parts about having DID or OSDD or whatever your diagnosis is on the continuum there. When people get frustrated or overwhelmed or don't know how to help us or are not skilled in treating dissociative disorders, we get labeled with behaviors and then diagnosed because of those behaviors.
• 15:08
  And he was talking about how focusing on the trauma and understanding the trauma explains what is happening in the brain and in the behavior patterns and internally, and how and why we are expressing ourselves the way that we are, and it explains instead of blames, which is so powerful and starts to address some of the shame because what happened to us is not who we are. We do not have to be identified by our past, and yet we also have a very deep need for our past experience and the impact of those experiences to be acknowledged in some way. But this is also why validation does not always work with those of us who are survivors because so often abusers use it as a tool of manipulation as part of the abusive process, either in the grooming or through the actual abuse process. And so validation can so often backfire with survivors and it damages or ruptures the relationship therapeutically. So all of these pieces gave me two things to think about.
• 16:28
  One is I think that that's why the toxic positivity, which we've talked about all summer, can be such a trigger because of this validation piece where that backfires. That's what he was talking about, and it helped explain that to me. The other thing is I think that's another reason why it's been so important for the plural community to come up with the term of plural in the first place. It's not just about having pride in your experience of your identity as someone with DID or OSDD or or no trauma systems. However, their identity is, it's not just about being multiple.
• 17:09
  And I had understood that some, and the other piece I had understood is that because we wait so long for diagnosis and then treatment takes so long, there is a big benefit in having a way to identify yourself for all of these years while you're in treatment, or for all of these years while you're waiting for treatment. And there are some or areas of the world where they still don't have good therapists who know how to treat dissociative disorders. So the community coming up with the term plurals for ourselves makes a lot of sense in a first person language kind of way. So I'm understanding that better, but he talked about how it's really important for us to acknowledge this because our trauma is not our entire identity, but it is part of our identity, those of us with trauma backgrounds. And so while no one wants to be identified by their past, at the same time, part of fully being ourselves is honoring the pain of the past, which includes it being acknowledged in some ways.
• 18:23
  So what does that look like for you? How do you feel about it right now when you think about it? Doing those exercises as part of therapy and slowing down is actually part of our identity formation as survivors. So he gave me a lot to think about. There's so much more there.
• 18:40
  It was a two day conference. Those were some highlights that I really wanted to talk about more, but we'll see if we can get them on the podcast and maybe talk about these things because it was so, so good. The next class that I wanna share about that I'm doing with ISSTD is basic EMDR training. So if you are a clinician and you have wanted to learn how to do EMDR and you are working with survivors and dissociative disorders, I absolutely 100% recommend you take this course. The next beginning of this course will be available next year, so you have plenty of time to start saving money and be able to take this course.
• 19:31
  If you are already trained in EMDR but have never had dissociative disorder training specifically, I would still recommend that you take this course. You guys, there are so many survivors. If all of you were in a big Zoom meeting right now and I could have a show of hands, you would see how many survivors have had bad experiences with EMDR because the person doing the EMDR was maybe a fantastic clinician, maybe had excellent EMDR training, but did not know how to apply that appropriately for dissociative disorders specifically. And it is such a big issue and such a gap in training and in clinical skills that the ISSTD has created their own class ever so appropriately with all the approval from the EMDR people. And please anyone who's actually important forgive me if I'm saying this all wrong.
• 20:37
  You guys, these are my words. These are not their words. Please know that. But I'm telling you, they have taken the EMDR training and developed it even more than what is required for basic training. And they have developed a course specifically for dissociative disorders and helping with trauma and when to use it and when not to use it because you guys, that is such a big deal and so much part of helping bring healing to the world and not causing further trauma.
• 21:14
  I can't tell you what a big deal it is that the ISSTD has developed this course. And you guys, it's fantastic. It's so well done. Everything they talked about was right on target, and they included like I could just cry about it. It's so, so fantastic.
• 21:38
  It was terrifying to be a student in the class because we've not done that and it feels super vulnerable because then you have impostor syndrome of my therapist says I'm well enough to do this, my clinical buddies say I'm well enough to do this, my supervisor says I'm well enough to do this, I feel like I'm well enough to do this, but what if I'm not? What if I'm just a big faker and impostor syndrome of I don't know what I'm doing here. But you guys, to be in that class and for them to walk through everything, and we learned how to do the DES, and we learned how to do the mid, and we learned how to do testing and assessments appropriately for dissociative disorders. It is a huge thing that they are doing this. And they completely redefined dissociation, and they talked about the phenomenological model from John O'Neil, which really cracked me up because he's my buddy from consultation group.
• 22:39
  And I forgot he was, you know, so fancy because I just know him from group. And I thought, why haven't I ever had John on the podcast? So I need to talk to him about that. But we talked about how there are kind of two types of dissociation. One of them is multiplicity, specifically more than one center of consciousness, different locus of control, that's DID stuff, right?
• 23:10
  But there's also dissociation in functionality where there's no disruption of sense of self. Like one ANP, but something terrible has happened and they're dealing with it, right? That's the brief version. So even that piece helped me understand some language issues. Like the question I get all the time on the podcast is why don't clinicians talk more about functional multiplicity?
• 23:33
  Now I know part of it is because that means something different to clinicians. When you say functional multiplicity or talk about dissociating but being high functioning, that to them means this, about no disruption in self. When plurals as a community are talking about functional multiplicity, They're talking about having DID or OSDD or being multiple, but functioning well, like being able to keep our jobs and parent well and having pride in our identity even though or despite or even because of having alters or being multiple. And so plural. Right?
• 24:18
  The the word is plural. So it helped me understand part of the language because sometimes they feel hesitant to accept. Like, it's its own coming out process. And despite the podcast, sometimes I really struggle with accepting that as my identity because it goes back to what Robert Mueller was saying about identifying with your trauma. I don't want to be identified by my trauma.
• 24:46
  And for me being plural, that's what that means because I know that my DID is because of trauma. I've made it far enough to accept that peace even if I'm still wrestling with so many other layers. And so I I struggle with wanting to recognize or accept plurality as my experience or my identity because now that I am focused on accepting my trauma and starting to work through some things, I I don't want this to be forever. And yet I'm also now understanding differently that this is always going to be my default. I can get better.
• 25:27
  I can continue functioning. I can improve my functioning. I can stay more present. I can increase awareness and cooperation and communication and all of these things. But because of how I've grown up, like, there's something about accepting.
• 25:44
  It's almost a grief process too. Can you have a coming out process and that be part of a grief process as well? Even while you're trying to have pride? Like, I don't know. These are things I wrestle with as far as developing my own identity because there's something about accepting that that makes it so permanent.
• 26:05
  And even if I work to get better, dissociation is always gonna be my default. Like and and maybe I can get better at learning how to deal with that. And there's lots of ways I can get better, but I'm not gonna be able to make it go away. And where I'm at right now, trying to fight for my capital s self is like is like a beautiful mind. Okay.
• 26:33
  That's where I'm at right now. And I know that movie was about schizophrenia and not about DID. I understand that. But those scenes, to see that portrayed of him interacting with and seeing others that other people can't see, like, that's what it feels like sometimes, right? Even if that was a different diagnosis.
• 26:54
  So I don't mean to make things confusing, but I'm talking about the experience of it and the visual of trying to give myself compassion and yet stay present and yet be aware of what's going on and yet stay functional. All of this struggle, that's the whole reason these other people who can be so out and proud about their plurality are so blatantly plural and so overt about it, those who have safe enough environments and support systems to do that, and good for them. Like, that's amazing, that's fantastic. But I also want to get better. And to me, it has felt thus far, like I had to choose this or that.
• 27:36
  And how do you navigate that? Is it really a choice that you have to have between this or that? Like, if I choose that, I fear I fear giving up progress. I fear giving up that I'm going to get any better. I fear accepting my plurality means I won't progress in therapy.
• 27:57
  Does that have to be true? Or can I even say that out loud without feeling ashamed of myself because I'm not trying to insult plurals and I'm not trying to insult myself? I want to be accepting of myself, but I also want to be healthy and I want to be well and I want to be a good mom and I want to keep my job and I want to be able to do these classes and webinars without being the crazy one on my little Zoom square screen. I want to be able to attend a conference without running around with a box of crayons in my bag. What does that look like?
• 28:34
  How do you so fully accept every layer of yourself, but also hang on to hope for being well? You know, I think about this a lot, and I went through my own experiences prior to getting married in the LGBT community. I went through my own experiences culturally as a deaf person who has cochlear implants but also is not hearing. I see my biracial children go through this, but I can give my example. So with cochlear implants, I have hearing friends now.
• 29:13
  I can attend these classes even though I don't have an interpreter, because there are some accommodations made and because I have cochlear implants. And it opens up the whole world to me, and accepting that I have these limitations is what gives me the tool to move beyond them, right? And that's a powerful thing. That's a powerful gift. But also, I don't wanna be ashamed of my deafness and that culturally insults myself if I were, and sign language will always be my favorite.
• 29:47
  And how crazy is it that my hands fly while I'm on a podcast, but all you hear is my voice? So have I denied that part of myself because I have a podcast instead of a YouTube channel? But I don't wanna be on YouTube. That's not my thing. That's not my language.
• 30:07
  That's not what unfolded for me. This is what unfolded for me. This is what we needed. This is what has happened. And so here we are.
• 30:15
  And so now the same thing with DID. Is that part of what plurality is about? Because we've come out in some ways more directly and more explicitly and more overtly because of the podcast. And yet also to keep ourselves safe, we have to hold so much back because it's not appropriate or good boundaries to just puke everything out, and that's not good for listeners. You, like, you don't listen to be traumatized.
• 30:43
  Right? So we have boundaries set up to take care of that. But it's a whole fascinating thing that I still struggle with because I have such respect for the community and I so appreciate the movement for the rights of plurals, but also I wanna get better, you guys. And I don't mean to betray my community or betray myself or betray any part of me because I say that. I do agree that I get to decide for myself what better means.
• 31:19
  But those are big things to wrestle with, and all of that happened in, like, the first five minutes of class. On the first morning, this whole new idea of redefining dissociation brought up all of those cultural questions for me, which wasn't what the class was about at all, but that was my experience sitting there. And in class, they actually were really careful about language, not just words used, but person centered language and respectful language, and they talked about that a lot and called it out specifically. And so that was one thing I really appreciated in the class and gave more evidence to me about how well it's being done. And all of that they did in the process of explaining about dissociative disorders, more about dissociative disorders, the newest research on ideology and how dissociation happens and what's happening with dissociation and the kinds of things Christine Forner talked about on the podcast with the cascade of defenses and different parts about the brain and how all of that neurology works, the polyvagal theory, all of those things were covered.
• 32:31
  Like you guys, it was jam packed full of stuff. And I'm telling you, if you are a clinician and you are able to save up the resources over the next year, you need to take this class. It was incredible. They even talked specifically about how there is no guarantee that the person who's in front is experiencing a nondistorted experience. Now now this was actually a huge piece, and it came up again later.
• 33:06
  And I honestly can't find in my notes if it came up in this class later or one of the other classes that I took this last month because I can't find it. So if someone knows, write in and let me know, and you can correct me or help me or come on the podcast and we can talk about it. But there was the it connected later to this fascinating piece that I had not realized about how the external piece of the experience of a survivor externally. Okay? So in interactions with someone else, whether that is your interaction with your spouse or your children or your class or your therapist or a friend or someone you're dating.
• 33:49
  If you have DID or OSDD or dissociative disorder of any kind, like anywhere on the continuum, your external interaction, the experience of that is with your ANP. Whatever ANP is there fronting, dealing with that, that person, the external interaction is an ANP kind of interaction, and one kind of thing is happening externally. But you guys, this blew me away. But they said the internal experience of that same interaction is an EP experience. So there are emotional and mental and regulation kinds of experiences that happen internally that no one on the outside even knows about.
• 34:49
  And I'm not just talking about, oh, you don't know someone else is watching or there's people hanging out in the back seat when someone else is driving. I'm not talking about that. I am talking about you process the same experience internally different than it happens externally. You guys, this blew me away. It explained so much.
• 35:12
  They also said that that's why DID that is disguised super covert starts to look borderline even when it's not borderline. Okay. And we're not gonna talk right now. That's a whole different episode about borderline personality disorder and the stereotypes and stigma of that and the misunderstandings of that. But the shame involved with that kind of stigma or that kind of level of pain being dismissed as a diagnosis like, oh, this is drama or oh, this is just borderline or oh, that friendship is rocky, or those interactions are challenging, or whatever the shame that is involved there.
• 35:56
  This is why it happens. They explained it and it blew my mind away. I wish I could remember. It blew me away. I wish I could find in my notes who it was that said that.
• 36:09
  I don't know if it was in this class or a different one. I really can't find it. But the external experience does not match the internal experience. And so things may look okay on the outside, but they are not okay on the inside. It explained to me the entire last year of our huge struggle wrestling with these big pieces that we've been wrestling with.
• 36:34
  Like, I felt when they said this and I realized what was going on, I felt like 200 pounds lighter. Like, I can't explain to you. It's like I had been crawling on the belly of the earth and all of a sudden I could fly in the sky. And I don't mean I was out of my body. I don't mean I dissociated from it.
• 36:56
  I mean the emotional lifting as shame was literally removed from my body. That's what it felt like. It was so intense and it was so visceral. It was so liberating. There was such freedom in that.
• 37:11
  It was powerful. And I was just there to learn about EMDR or whatever was going on in the class, right? It was powerful. So the entire day one was all about dissociative disorders and all about the brain and all about how trauma is stored in the body or the brain or how that happens and that whole process. Okay?
• 37:33
  And then the second day of our first class, the second day was about how EMDR works and why it works. They talked about how consciously held material is available via the hippocampus on the left side of the brain, but unconsciously held material is available via the amygdala. And so the only way to access it is through the prefrontal cortex. And that's why with EMDR, you have to stay within the window of tolerance because you have to go in through the prefrontal cortex. This goes back to what Robert Mueller was saying in the other conference for the Kentucky regional one about how you have to slow down and why you go so slowly with it because you need your prefrontal cortex online.
• 38:28
  If your prefrontal cortex goes offline, you lose access to all of that. And this also explained to me the entire last year. Like, if someone could have just, I don't know, handed me a piece of paper and said, hey, you need your prefrontal cortex back, my year of 2020 would have gone a lot better. Let me just say, I understood so much about how to make the window of tolerance visceral instead of just that old school picture with the straight lines. Right?
• 39:02
  You know what I'm talking about? It was so helpful to understand this piece and why it works and the whole framework of EMDR and how it works. And the reason this is so huge, you guys, they said the words, this is a brain thing, not a defect. I have DID because what happened to me and how my brain processed that, which is way different than just thinking I'm a crazy person because I failed at life. Saying trauma happened to me, whatever my trauma was, whatever your trauma was, and now I have DID because that's how your brain processes that much trauma which adds up, right?
• 39:50
  Like cumulative. We've learned that on the podcast. And so your brain does this naturally to keep you alive and that this is a brain thing, not a defect, is so much better than the shame of why can't you get your act together? You guys, I am telling you this one day of class, these two days of our first class, like it's in four modules, right? So it takes a whole year to go through it because there's different things you have to do and different courses just like any EMDR training.
• 40:26
  It's super intense. But just this weekend of the one full day of learning about DID and the second full day learning about the brain and EMDR and why it works, you guys, that was worth like three years of therapy. I'm not even kidding. And I disclosed nothing in the class. I mean, I later had to talk to my teachers about, oh, yeah.
• 40:48
  I have DID. I'm really sorry because I have to take the EMDR class safely. Right? So I did have to do that, which was super scary, but very respectfully handled. And so I feel totally safe in the class, but I'm not kidding.
• 41:03
  Just the information they taught in just those first two days was years of therapy, just understanding those pieces. So you clinicians, I know you've got your own stuff. You don't have to tell us about it. It's not your podcast. You don't want us to know.
• 41:20
  That's okay, boundaries. But I'm telling you, you need to take this class. It will help you so, so much. But this is also exactly why it works. It was like my experience of class was like the metanarrative of the experience of ENDR itself.
• 41:39
  It was a microcosm of what we had the micro and the macro happening all at the same time just in class, and this was just the information. Like, we haven't even done the part where we learn how to do any protocols or anything. This was just the information about dissociative disorders and the information about EMDR, and it was so powerful. Michael Coy is one of the teachers and he said that research indicates when someone's sympathetic nervous system is engaged and experiencing powerful emotion, reprocessing is more powerful too, which I can absolutely from a lived experience kind of way, absolutely confirm that and agree with a %, both in good healing ways and with things going bad ways, right? So they were also very careful to talk very well and in-depth about when EMDR is not appropriate.
• 42:43
  It is not for memory retrieval. And they also emphasize at length about how the brain links things together. And so similar aspects of other experiences can be stirred up or brought up. And that's one reason you have to be so very careful with it. And so emphatic about containment and so careful, especially in the use of EMDR with dissociative disorders.
• 43:14
  One of the other things that I loved almost as much as everything else about this class, it was so good for me. It was both affirming and reminding me to hold myself accountable in this way, but they talked about honoring avoidance as a boundary. That when there is something that you can't remember or are avoiding, there's a reason. And to trust that as part of the process, trust the system in how it's designed and to let it do what it's going to do and to respect the boundaries and look at what that means and why it's there, and be curious about that, and explore what that looks like, rather than just pushing through or plowing over. And I had needed someone to say that to me for eight months.
• 44:02
  And so again, that was such a powerful experience and so good for me to remind for myself, for my own system, for my own life, and it's something we have talked about in therapy for three weeks. And then in case I did not hear it the first time in EMDR class, in my class on complex trauma, the level one certification course that ISSTD offers, I'm in class with Rosalie Hyde for part two of level one. And in class this week, we spent the entire class talking about how you have to be safe to do the work, that we cannot progress in therapy if we are not safe to do so, that everything is about safety. And so it was a fascinating week because it was safety, safety, safety. Every class I went to for ISTD, it was safety, safety, safety.
• 45:00
  And that was, again, affirming, it was empowering, and it was such a good reminder and helped me sort of take note and reevaluate for myself personally, and then obviously clinically for some of my clients, what does safety mean to them? What does safety mean to me? What does safety mean to different parts of me? And what do I need to do to improve and reconnect and interact differently so that I am safer and so that the people around me are safer. And here's what happened.
• 45:35
  Do you know what happened? My entire life has changed because the more that I focused on keeping people in my life safe, and I don't mean bad boundaries, and I'm not talking about codependency, and I'm not talking about rescuing, I just mean interacting in ways that are safe for the people, meeting their needs, improving attunement. The more that I focused on that, it turned out the less I needed to use some of those defense mechanisms that are so automatic or so unhealthy and maladaptive when they're out of context from surviving as a child. It improved my relationships with my family. It improved my relationships with my friends.
• 46:17
  It improved connections that I didn't even realize were a thing. Like, I can't tell you how much I learned just from that class. And so, again, I mean, that's such a life thing. Right? You think you're going to learn one thing or going to do one thing, and you learn so much more.
• 46:38
  We also had our first consultation group with our EMDR class, and obviously I'm not gonna talk about that. But the point is that we were super brave because that was scary to do, and it was also embarrassing because I wrote the time zone down wrong. So once again, thank you, dissociation. It is the hardest thing for these classes and the hardest thing for the interviews for the podcast is to get it scheduled and to get the time right and to function well enough at that day and time to show up appropriately. It's so still hard.
• 47:11
  I don't know if that ever gets easier, but we thought we were ten minutes early and we were an hour late. It was so embarrassing. So we will keep trying and we will have to do extra consult groups and we will take care of that. I will get it done because I want to do this and it matters. Right?
• 47:28
  So I share that just being honest and vulnerable because that's a functioning thing. Right? That's an example of why I need to stay in therapy because I want to be able to function. The other thing I wanna share about it is just how respectful and how participatory and how safe the group was, just like in the classes that I've taken for the level one program of the certification, it's good people, good, good people teaching these classes. And they are good, good people taking these classes, and it creates such a safe place for learning and for practicing and for trying out.
• 48:08
  And I'm saying this now because I know that I'm gonna have to show up for the second class for EMDR. And so maybe if I tell myself this and remember, it will be less scary the second time. But it was really, really good, and I am grateful. I would not have done it in any other setting. It is because I know these people and I already trust them that I felt safe enough I could do this.
• 48:33
  So if you are a clinician who's a little bit shy or has some of your own issues, even if you've done your work on them and continuing to take care of yourself, this is a safe place and a way to do them is through the ISSTD classes. I'm just saying. They have not told me to say that. I'm just saying that as a lived experience. These are my words, and I'm really sorry if I said any of them wrong.
• 48:57
  But I'm telling you, it is worth taking if you are not a member of ISSTD. I absolutely encourage you to go ahead and sign up and take advantage of some of these classes because it's incredible what they're doing. Incredible. And I'm super excited about them, not just because I'm learning, but because it is making me a better clinician and because I am functioning better as a person just from applying what I'm learning. Like, that's not even why I was taking the classes, and yet it changes everything about my clinical practice.
• 49:34
  And I am appalled. I am appalled that these things were not taught to me in school or supervision for licensure or any other training. It is shocking. The gap is shocking of what was not taught and what was left out of training. And it's no wonder so many of us have had bad experiences with therapists who did not know what they were doing, and this is changing the world.
• 50:01
  These classes are changing the course of healing for thousands of people. And to me, that is powerful. It is something worth investing in, and it is something to be a part of. There are no words for how big that is.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.