Latest / Fear the 'Fro: A Cleveland Cavaliers Podcast / Knicks Cucked Us Again, Bring on the Celtics (with Jordan Zirm)

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Knicks Cucked Us Again, Bring on the Celtics (with Jordan Zirm) · Fear the 'Fro: A Cleveland Cavaliers Podcast

• 0:00
  Bob: Hello, Cavs fans. Welcome to the Fear the Fro podcast. The unofficial podcast of running from the grind. You know how I hate more than anything, wallowing in misery, but that's what I'm gonna do today, and there's a reason for that. There's a reason I didn't just drag my feet and wait till this Boston Celtics game plays out.
• 0:19
  It's twofold. 1, it's probably gonna get worse before it gets better. We got news today that Donovan Mitchell underwent a procedure that will keep him out at least the next 3 games, at which point he will be reevaluated. So could be 3, could be more than that, but for all intents and purposes, that effectively removes Donovan Mitchell from all all NBA conversations, so we no longer have to have these debates because it's not very likely he will qualify. Now I understand, technically, if he only misses just the 3 games that they preannounced, if he's reevaluated and they say full clear, good to go, then, yes, he could get to 66 games.
• 0:59
  That would give him 2 games of wiggle room. But to think that he's not going to miss 2 games, I think, in a post all star break where we're getting conditioned to be disappointed, you're only setting yourself up for pain. Now, I'm watching a show with my wife. It's called Love is Blind. I'm sure most of you are quite familiar with it, but I know that there's some foreign listeners to the Fear the Fro podcast.
• 1:21
  So just indulge me while I explain the basic premise. It's a love connection show. People meet each other on opposite sides of what they call a pod. It's a room with a giant partition in the middle. You cannot see the person you're talking to.
• 1:35
  Now the concept is you will forge a strong emotional connection that will build a lifelong love connection. But in reality, people are fucking terrible. So, in this year's season, the one that's on right now on Netflix, there was a moment where one of the females in the pod told the guy she was talking to that people tell her she looks like Megan Fox. Spoiler. That's bullshit, Mark.
• 1:59
  Big time bullshit, Mark. She does not look like Megan Fox. Well, this guy, having been incepted, of course, proposed. And when he meets her, one of the first comments they make in the edit afterwards is, yeah, I was sold a false bill of goods. She does not look like Megan Fox.
• 2:14
  That is the danger of setting your expectations too high. What I want you to do is assume that Donovan Mitchell's injury is a great big fat person.
• 2:26
  Drop: Was she a great big fat person?
• 2:28
  Bob: All that's probably waiting for you on the other end of this is disappointment, so set your bar low like you do with your cavalier podcasting. If you're here, you're slumming it. You're already in the mindset. Just keep it running. But let's get to the guest.
• 2:42
  Shall we? Jordan Zerm is his name at Jordan Zerm. Jordan, what's your title with Sporting News?
• 2:49
  Jordan Zirm: I am the, I guess, I'm the director of social over there, so we can, we can go with that. So, yeah, I, I run a social media team over at Sporting News. If you're not following us, hit it right now. Hit that follow button immediately.
• 3:02
  Bob: Absolutely. Okay. So I guess we we can dance around what happened against New York Knicks, but we might as well, broach the subject. I'm curious how you came away from that game. Were you completely taken aback by what you saw, or were you fearful of that heading in?
• 3:19
  Jordan Zirm: I think there was, certainly a fear of just what the Knicks are to the Cavs at this at this moment in time. There's sort of this looming shadow over which, you know, had things gone differently in that playoff series, had maybe that series gone to even, like, 6 games or 7 games, we maybe feel a lot different going into this season. So I think, you know, there's this, I think, greater desire to, like, well, it would be great if the Cavs would come out and push them around a little bit and have a good showing. I think it was weird with how quick the Jalen Brunson injury happened that sort of, I think, took the wind out of the sails of the game a little bit right at the beginning because it was just like, okay. Well, now who knows how they're gonna play without Jalen and, you know, everything sort of goes out the window.
• 4:07
  But then I think that just made it even more frustrated that the outcome was very much the same, especially the final, you know, 5, 6 minutes was very much the same of what we watched for a painstaking 5 games last April. So I don't think there was anything super surprising about it. I think Jalen being out with all the injuries that the Knicks are already dealing with, it was just a real opportunity to sort of, you know, so what if they're like, oh, you beat the Knicks without Jalen. I was like, yeah. But, like, they gotta get a good feeling some way somehow against this Knicks team, and they had a wide open chance to do it.
• 4:41
  And I think it was more disappointing than anything that that Q4 felt a lot like some previous ones.
• 4:47
  Bob: I share a lot of those frustrations. In a lot of ways, the way that I felt like when we were going through that injury stretch where so many of the guys who maybe there weren't expectations of them playing to some immense team level, when they came through for us, it kinda felt that way watching the Knicks where I was thinking, okay. Brunson goes down. We should be able to run here, but everybody just stepped up. I mean, you had 4 guys on the roster who weren't even part of that playoff series last year Yep.
• 5:16
  Who scored 78 of their points. And as much as we talk about some of the guys that did it, it wasn't like their bigs even had the log heavy minutes. So to come out of that game, there was things that I I was pleased with. Obviously, everybody felt good about what Sam Merrill did, and I thought there was a lot of positives in terms of what we're seeing from Darius Garland over the last few games. But in a post all star stretch where the cavaliers are losing games to good teams and and winning uninspiring games against really uninspiring teams.
• 5:49
  I'm curious what your feelings are on the team in general and the things that you've seen since all star break with this cavalier roster.
• 5:59
  Jordan Zirm: I think why I get so frustrated with them is because they have these moments where they play such good basketball. And I think you saw it obviously when the injuries happen, but you were sort of, like, even when they get Mobley and Garland back, they can play in a way where they're really good basketball team and they're really hard to beat. And you've seen despite our frustrations with the lineups and the rotations, whatever, you've seen them play really, really good stretches of basketball because they're a really talented team. They're not fully formed yet. You know, there are young guys that have a ways to go, but, like, you know, I think you look at, like, someone like Isaac Okoro and how far he's come as a basketball player and how he's sort of taken off through all the chaos that they've gone through, they just have stretches where you're like, if they played like this for the majority of the game, they would be really, really hard to beat.
• 6:50
  Where, you know, the frustrations come from is then you just sort of feel like they get back to a spot where they're running in place. And I think what we've seen since the all star break is that sort of plateau of what this roster is when they play a certain way, when they run out certain lineups that a lot of us already are, like, iffy on. And now we're sort of just seeing it over and over again where you're kinda getting the same result. Feels like you're banging your head against the wall a little bit. And it makes me nervous as we come towards another playoff run, which is going to be here very, very soon.
• 7:24
  There are not many games left. Just about, like, what the what they're gonna look like when a team has a chance to game plan for them, when a team can just solely focus on them and their tendencies and all of that, which is, you know, a lot of what we saw, what the Knicks did last year. So I think there is a this season has been so wild because it has been such there was a huge low of how they started the season and the injuries. There is this immense high where, you know, a lot of us, myself included, was like, do they trade Donovan Mitchell? Do they just punt on this season?
• 7:55
  Like, is it even worth it? And then they play maybe the best basketball they've played in the post LeBron era. So that's incredible. And then you're like, well, it's gonna be tough working these guys back in, but, man, they've really set a baseline of, like, how they can play basketball moving forward. And then Darius and Evan come back and our sort of fears of, like, uh-oh.
• 8:16
  They're kinda slipping back into some bad habits. Like, that's happening. So it's been, I would say frustration is the word because as much as I enjoy when they play well, I think it's the expectations are just sort of looming over their shoulder of, like, okay. Last year was sort of like you dip your toe in. It went very poorly in the playoffs.
• 8:35
  Let's take those learnings. Let's go into a second season that not only it's like, you know, they gotta make a little noise in the playoffs. You've got the Donovan Mitchell thing looming over. Like so there's just a lot of looming over the Cavs that make it hard at times to fully enjoy what they're doing, and I think that that's sort of where I'm at and how I feel kinda in these, I don't have her many games, 8, 9, 10 since the all star break.
• 8:57
  Bob: I'm starting to get anxious about how little time there is left. After the injury run, I'd say, this is fantastic. Look at what we've found. We logged massive minutes with all of our depth pieces. They succeeded beyond any of our wildest imagination, but we we aren't carrying it forward right now.
• 9:15
  It's like you said. It feels like we're backtracking a little bit, and I don't want that month and a half to be wasted in the grand scheme of things. I don't wanna get to the playoffs and feel like we're still figuring it out. I wanted that to serve as a template that we would just plug our more talented Mobley and Garland into and make what was already a great thing even more sustainable against better competition. But the fact it feels like we've backtracked a little bit makes me wonder if we can really rely on our ability to get back to that type of offense before we run out of time and the playoffs arrive.
• 9:52
  I sort of feel like the 2 big lineup. The frustration that I'm running into with it is and I'm a huge fan of just dominant big men. I tend to be a a big advocate of that archetype of player. So I've been pounding the drum for patience because while, yes, the lineup was great with spacing, my feeling was there's no reason to abandon the 2 big lineup though because it allows us to swing either way, opponent dependent. However, that was contingent on Mobley and Allen improving upon what was solid performance alongside one another last year.
• 10:27
  However, before all star break this year, they were a plus 4.1 in 415 minutes. Since all star break, they're a minus 1 and a half. It's headed in the wrong direction, and it's frustrating because at least defensively, with those 2, the floor is immensely high, but the ceiling, at least offensively, feels like if Donovan is not propping it up, left to their own devices, it may collapse in on us. Now I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but it seems like based on what I've seen you tweet that you're losing faith in the 2 big construction to some extent?
• 11:04
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. And I don't even think it's something where, like, I'm fine with them starting the game together. I do think there is you know, we talk about you want your best players on the floor. And I do think that that starting 5 of the 2 guards, Struce, plus Allen and Mobley, to an extent is sort of their most talented you know, maybe you eventually swap out Struce, Heru, or Koro if he comes a really consistent 3 point shooter. Whatever it is, I think there's, you know, there's an argument to be made that, yeah, those are the 5 most talented guys on this team.
• 11:36
  I think where it gets to be more of an issue is at end of halves and end of games where that to me should be the time where you shouldn't have this sort of rigidness to your to your rotations. And I think we saw, for example, last night, you know, the Cavs go on these runs, when they're playing with the one big with the shooters around them, and they're making the defense get rotation. They're whipping the ball around. And then you saw what happened towards the end of that game where JB just feels like I gotta go back to my starting 5 to close out the half or to close out the end of the game. And, the spacing is just it's so noticeable how different the spacing is.
• 12:17
  And I tweeted a couple things and, you know, part of this is on Darius Garland, and his turnovers have always kind of been an issue. But when he drives and there's so little space and all he's seeing is arms and bodies because there's 2 big men there, and their men are gonna be in the paint. Even if you you could put Jared and Evan a mile outside of the stadium, and they're still gonna be just chilling in the paint. So you're just gonna you're gonna cut off passing angles, and you're gonna cut out Darius' vision. And you saw a couple of really crucial turnovers in those last couple of minutes from Darius, which, again, like, that's on him.
• 12:50
  He needs to make better decisions, but you're taking away his vision that is much more clearer when you give him that space. So I don't know if I'm sitting here saying, you know, they need to make a choice between Alan or Mobley. I I think what they're gonna have to do is they're gonna have to say, like, look. We we are gonna have to make a decision during the end of games where one of you may be on the bench. If that leads to a trade, then okay.
• 13:15
  I don't know. But I just think there's enough data out there now, and I think we've watched. It even happened against, was it the Wizards the other night?
• 13:23
  Bob: Probably the Wizards or the Pistons or one of those No.
• 13:26
  Jordan Zirm: I'm sorry. It was the Pistons game. Thank you. It was the Pistons game where they're they're blowing the doors off of them and this sort of dedication to we gotta get our 2 bigs back in there to end the half and the Pistons go on in 11 o run because things just grind to a halt. I'm sort of in the camp where I'm fine with starting the haves with these guys, but I think there needs to be flexibility, especially when someone like Sam Merrill is shooting out of his mind.
• 13:49
  You know? Like, there's gotta be flexibility there to end halves with the players that are making the biggest difference, and we are we are not there. You know? It's causing them to lose games that they should be winning, I I frankly would say at this point.
• 14:02
  Bob: I wanna unload some complaints on you from from the New York.
• 14:06
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. I'm ready. I'm ready.
• 14:07
  Bob: Because speaking specifically to that play that you posted about towards the end of the game, it was Mhmm. The Knicks had gone up by 6 after Hart hit that heroic 3, and Darius drove towards the rim, lap up in the air, and then tried to pass the ball. It got stolen by Hart. That play to me was emblematic of the type of thing that I feel like kinda separates Donnie and Darius at times. Darius, his shooting has been great from outside since his return from injury, especially post all star break.
• 14:38
  Not necessarily the interior shooting, but the 3 point shooting is coming along nicely. But in that game, I felt like we got to the end of the game, and people immediately pinned the blame on the Biggs or JB or on this abstract concept of team toughness. Forget that we did fine rebounding. Forget that we equaled their offensive rebounds. Because Josh Hart had 19 rebounds, that painted this picture for people that I think doesn't reflect reality.
• 15:07
  I didn't come away from that game feeling like our big men got dominated. Jared Allen was pivotal in that second quarter run, and he was doing a lot of the heavy lifting that took that Knicks run-in the beginning of 2nd, and then we ended up wrestling control back before, you know, Darius put us in the lead right before halftime. And that was like a 24, 10 run of which Jared Allen scored 8, 9, 10 points, somewhere in that range. I was pleased with his offense for the most part. What bothered me, I felt like the Knicks were just abandoning cavalier shooters, even good ones, and we did nothing to make them pay.
• 15:44
  That was what this was supposed to be different about this year, and yet look back at all those Josh Hart rebounds. Look how many times people just ignore Max Struss even. Wade was terrible. Yang was terrible. Struss was terrible.
• 15:58
  But there was bad. There was multiple times in that game where they would have 4 or all 5 Knicks from the free throw line and in on shot attempts just attempting to get rebounds. I didn't feel like Allen and Mobley weren't in position for boards or or didn't make good fundamentally sound plays. I felt like there was a lot of shots that caromed along, a lot of horrible back rim 3 pointers that bounced out past the foul line. There was even times we got offensive rebounds, second 3 point opportunities, missed them again, and by the end of the game, Josh Hart had 19 rebounds.
• 16:32
  The Knicks just didn't respect even the guys who were conventionally considered good shooters this year. In that situation towards the end of the game, seeing Mobley kind of buried in the corner, the fact that he didn't even get the ball to him on the pass and it got stolen is one thing. I was upset with Darius in that situation. I thought it was a bad decision to drive it to the side of the floor where you have probably the guy that gets the least respect. But even given that, those cannot be the decisions you make when the fate of the game is in the balance.
• 17:00
  And it's not unique to Darius. The Dallas game that we almost lost. After Darius got that time out, we inbounded with Mobley, and he threw it into 2 guys, Streuce and Garland, in close proximity, both moving towards the sideline. It was a disaster. It had disaster written all over it, and, of course, we turned it over.
• 17:19
  That shit needs to be cut out. And sometimes I feel like Donovan is the only one I have faith in in those moments. I mean, until recently, we'd won every overtime game. They've been put in a crucible, but sometimes they put themselves in the crucible needlessly. Right on the heels of that turnover to Josh Hart, He came down to the other end of the floor, was just kinda lost on his defensive assignment, and McBride hit that 3 that effectively ended the game right there.
• 17:46
  And that was on a Darius closeout where he was just meandering across the foul line and then looking for where his guy was and turning his back too many times yesterday on relocations. Darius doesn't keep track of where his guy is. And Miles McBride, who's not a great 3 point shooter, you would have thought he was the most confident 3 point shooter in the world last night, and for them to get 7 of their 16 three pointers, they took 10 three pointers against Darius and knocked down 7 of them. For everything that's happened, you see all the talent with this Cavs team, and you're like, the ceiling can be so high, but when we win in one way, we lose in another way. It's been the same thing with Darius.
• 18:26
  Since all star break, he's gone from shooting 51% on drives to now post all star break 27%. So that's the bad. But the good is on pull up threes, he went from 36% before all star break to now he's shooting 52% on pull up threes and 46% on catch and shoot threes, which is over a 15% improvement on both of those. I feel like Darius's offense is starting to really turn a corner, and his his shooting has come back. But in this last stretch of 4 games, he's had some absolutely horrific defensive performances against the Pistons.
• 19:04
  He allowed his primary assignment to convert it a 70% rate with the Knicks. Same thing, like I said, they they hit the 7 threes. And then even with the Mavericks, his assignment was shooting 65% from the floor. So for as much as he's finally starting to score at a ridiculous efficiency from outside the arc, it feels like his interior game has abandoned him, and some of his defensive assignments are almost scoring as many points as he's giving us on the other side of the ball. I'm wondering how you felt about Darius' game because I do feel like a lot of focus has been on the bigs.
• 19:36
  I'm wondering how you felt about what you've seen from the backcourt post all star break.
• 19:41
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. Well, I think this just goes I mean, I think all these conversations I think you're spot on, obviously, with Darius. Like, there's things he's started to do well, like shooting, but his floater has completely disappeared. He can't hit a floater to save his life anymore, and that's a huge part of how he's has to be able score if he's not scoring from the outside. But I think it just goes back to, you know, the Cavs sort of made this bet on an unconventional roster construction.
• 20:05
  It's sort of 1a, 1b. It's 2 non shooting bigs, which teams do not employ anymore. And then it's 2 small guards in Donovan and Darius. You know, they made they made the move for Donovan. I I'm glad that they did it.
• 20:19
  I think it's a bet and a risk that you you take, and Donovan is a phenomenal player as we've seen. But if you just look around the league and, I mean, you look at the team that's coming into Cleveland on Tuesday and the Boston Celtics, they are Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown giving you 30 to 40 point. They are Apex Predator Wings. Those are the 2 players that the Cavs have never had in this era of of basketball, and they have almost sometimes, seem like purposely avoided drafting or trading for a a wing. And even with the steps that Okoro has made, I don't think he's ever gonna be a 20, 25 points per night type of score.
• 21:00
  He's just not, he doesn't have the same talent level as those guys. And so I think we can talk about a lot of this stuff like the 2 bigs. We can talk about Garland struggling. And yes, he's undersized on the defensive end. Guys are gonna give him buckets.
• 21:13
  Like, he just is not does not have the size to stop a lot of these guys. They're gonna be bigger than him. He doesn't have great defensive principles. He's gonna get blown by a lot, that type of thing. But I think it also makes me zoom out into, like, this is the existential question of this Cavs team.
• 21:29
  It's like, can they make a deep playoff run with a roster that is in some ways completely 180 from where the NBA has gone in the last 5 years where it's like you've got one big, but then you've got a wing that's just absolutely going to destroy people. You have a Kevin Durant. You have a Devin Booker. You have, you know, Jaylen or Jason, whatever. And the Cavs sort of made this bet that they can do it in a way that's not traditional, which I don't think is, you know, I don't think you need to be so rigid where it's like we have to have a a 3 that can that's 6, 8, and can do all these things.
• 22:06
  Like, I think that's a silly way to look at things. But I think, like, when the cavs go through these stretches where you're like, man, they can't score in in crunch time. Their offense grinds to a halt. They're gonna have to make some sort of decision on these 2 bigs that they sort of back themselves into a corner by trading for 1 and drafting survive in 2024? And that is a a question I do not have the answer to.
• 22:37
  I would say that is a question that I don't currently have a great feeling about despite like, Darius to me is one of my I think maybe it's just because, you know, it was they drafted Sexton and then Garland was next, and you have some affinity towards those guys because it's, like, the post LeBron homegrown. These are our draft picks. I've loved Darius Garland for a long time. He's a he is a a favorite player of mine. I've always loved watching him, but there is a sort of reality, I think, that could be coming as we sort of see what this team does in these playoffs in the next couple years where that's gonna be the big question for them.
• 23:10
  So I think while your point about Darius is absolutely correct, I think it just speaks to, yeah, like, their pillars of this team are bets that they've made where if you look at a lot of rosters, you don't see teams really built like this anymore. And that's a challenge for them. And I think they know that, and they have to figure it out.
• 23:28
  Bob: With Mobley on a a rookie contract, it's far more palatable to be like, well, listen. A mass talent, there may be some overlap, but that's naturally gonna sort itself out over time. But then when you get games like last night where it's like, okay. Even when you want to employ the stretch fours, you know, and Yang and Wade, if they go over 10, then you're gonna get burned. And that's just like an unfortunate reality of, well, here's another game against the Knicks where we wanted to draw meaningful conclusions about our core players, and the support guys of Struth, Wade, and Yang combined to go 2 for 19.
• 24:02
  It sort of contaminates the whole sample, or at least it feels like it does. Or maybe it's just providing me with yet another excuse to kick the can down the road. I don't know. Maybe I need to look inward. There's been a lot of conversation.
• 24:15
  I mean, you talked about rigidity a certain amount, about this concept of, like, JB, since getting back everybody, has locked into these. Okay. We'll play these we'll play the 2 bigs this many minutes midway through the Q1, in comes Dean. He gets 3 minutes. We bring in George Yang.
• 24:31
  I thought that kinda hurt them with the Knicks, that rigidity. Not not the concept of playing the bigs together and space into that. But you look at a guy like Boyan, who came in in the early second, Yang got that assignment, and Boyan was cooking him. I mean, he was getting him off the bounce to just midrange pull ups. He scored 6 or 8 straight points before Dean got back into the mix, and they went away from what was toasting them.
• 24:55
  And Dean basically kinda clamped him up at that point, and those are the situations sometimes where I look at and I say, what I do wanna see and what I'm I I haven't determined for myself. I mean, I'm not gonna just say, okay, we lost. This was a pretty crushing moral loss. I'm out on jb, but I do want a little bit more fluidity to what's transpiring in the game. I've never been a big advocate of just being like, well, these are the minutes when Dean plays.
• 25:21
  These are the minutes when George plays. And I do think these last couple games especially kinda lend to the idea of I think every one of us, including yourself probably from the sound of it, was frustrated that we get late in the game, we have a bit of a hole, and Sam goes to the bench and we close with 2 bigs when we're chasing the lead. We're chasing the lead by multiple possessions. I hear all the time this conversation of you you only have so many options. You you if you're not gonna play George, you're not gonna play Sam.
• 25:48
  And to me, like, I've never really bought into this idea that I'm like, George if George is a 4, Max is enough of a 4. Okay? Yeah. So don't don't tell me we have to play George because his position is considered power forward. Because quite frankly, he's not doing a whole hell of a lot to help on the glass that I don't think Max with his effort can't do if we wanna get an additional shooter out there.
• 26:09
  So I'm curious where you fall in this off debated subject of Yang versus Wade versus Merrill versus how do you allot those minutes?
• 26:17
  Jordan Zirm: I I think I align right there with you and everything you just said. I the, you know, it is so strange to me. Yeah. That initial substitution where they put in Dean Wade for, like, 2 minutes and 30 seconds, yank them, and then put in the egg. It's almost like, what's the, I mean, if I'm Dean Wade, I'm like, what?
• 26:33
  Why? Just bench don't even play me. I don't understand why you how am I supposed to get into any rhythm? And I do think we've seen, like, Dean Wade was a huge part of how well they played when the guys were out. And now he looks as hesitant as he was when he came back from injury last season.
• 26:47
  Like, he's barely shooting. He's line driving his threes when he does shoot. There's no arc on that ball. Like, he just has sort of he looks so hesitant out there, and I think that's a product of sometimes it's very strange but rigid way that he that JB uses these minutes. So I I think sometimes JB is good at, like, especially with Niang who has and I'm sure by his own admission will say that he is probably playing some of the worst basketball that he's played in a very long time.
• 27:14
  There are sometimes when JB notices it and makes that change, and Wade comes in and plays, and he leaves Wade in there for 10 minutes, and Niang sits on the bench until halftime and you're like, great. Like that that makes me optimistic. I think it would go a long way to sort of assuaging my fears of this roster where if they're like like I think I said earlier, there just was more flexibility with who they play. Like listen, if the Cavs are on a run with their 2 bigs, by all means, keep in the 2 bigs. You know?
• 27:42
  There are gonna be teams you know, like, they played Chicago the other night. And even though that to me, that was an anomaly of getting outrebounded. But it's like, okay. They're playing Andre Drummond, and they're playing Busanich. So, like, you should absolutely have your 2 bigs out there because Mobley can guard a guy out on the perimeter, and you would hope that Jared Allen can bang down low even though Andre Drummond is a massive human being.
• 28:02
  It did not work out that night. But just like in theory, it's like, yeah, play those 2 bigs. That's a matchup where you should play those 2 bigs a lot. But then other times, like you said last night, where like Sam Merrill's on this heater and their offense looks great. And then the second you yank them and like, yes, Sam had played a lot of minutes, but he looked fine.
• 28:20
  Like he wasn't like he was like hunched over throwing up on the sideline. Like I think he has a tendency to not let things, like, ride out like that or he's just like, oh, how many minutes are in the half? How many minutes has this guy played? I gotta take him out. Gotta put him so and so.
• 28:32
  And I think it really would go a long way to, like, using this roster in this way because they are deep and they are talented. But if you're not using the guys who play well together and you're not using your best lineups, then none of that really is gonna matter because you're just jamming pieces in that don't fit. And I think we see that way too much from JB. That's probably the biggest frustration when it comes to him as a coach. You know, I think the other thing too is like, I try to look at it and be like, there's so much more for JB to consider.
• 29:02
  I'm sure there are politics involved. I know for a fact that Donovan Mitchell and George Niang are very close. You see them sitting on the bench. He was talking to George a lot last night. They've they obviously played together in Utah.
• 29:12
  They have a history together. So if JB all of a sudden is like, I'm not playing George anymore, does that piss Donovan off? And does he not want to resign with the like, you have to finesse relationships. You have to finesse these things. And I you know, that's a part of the game that coaches do behind the scenes that you don't see.
• 29:29
  And so I try to take that into account. But I think at the same time, the pressure is mounting on JB himself and the clock is ticking a little bit on him. Sometimes you gotta make those decisions and you gotta make those choices and you gotta live with them. And I think he's still at the point where he's just like, well, this is what we talked about, in training camp. This is how I'm gonna run my team, and this is exactly how we're still gonna do it Sixty plus games into the season, and I think that's where it gets a little frustrating.
• 29:53
  So I think I align with you there for sure.
• 29:55
  Bob: I'll I'll be the first to admit. I've defended George in the sense that he's definitely a peak and valley guy. Like, he'll have a month where he shoots 40%, and he's back down to 30. And I know overall on the season, the percentages aren't good, but he was very good in January. 44% from outside the arc.
• 30:12
  We forget that, though, because a month in NBA terms feels like an eternity. It's sort of similar to what kinda played out with Kevin Love in the sense of Dean Wade was playing good basketball. JB had to make a tough decision. We saw what the result of that was. He didn't choose to put him back in the lineup at all.
• 30:30
  He basically made the hard stance of like, okay, Kevin. You're out. That led to the buyout and everything, and it and it does make me wonder sometimes with George where I'm kind of of the I'm not saying you put Dean in and you take George out and it's a forever thing. But George has started the month o for 7. I I the fluidity I want is just, okay.
• 30:50
  Maybe George shifts to the lower minutes. You get in for a few. If you're making an impact, you stay in role. Whereas that's kinda what I wanna see from JB. I'm not necessarily the, okay, George.
• 31:00
  You missed 7 3 pointers. You're never gonna be seen from a guy. Because he started the season the same way. I think he missed his first nine attempts. And then the second month, he gave us a 40% month.
• 31:10
  But there are times where I think I mean, you hear it all the time. The conversation of, does JB do more with less? And I guess in some ways, that could be beneficial in that now without Max and Donovan, there's gonna be guys who absolutely have to play just because we need the minutes. But I would like to see just in this stretch, we saw such good play from Dean and Isaac and Sam for a month and a half, and I and it feels like at times, JB has convinced himself that that was meaningless. And I think I'm about at the end of my rope for this.
• 31:40
  Well, Sam is too small. You can't play him alongside Darius. Bro, we're rolling out Craig Porter junior and Donovan Mitchell. We play plenty of small people. Our whole roster is constructed that way.
• 31:51
  If rolling out 2 7 footers doesn't give you the license to keep one of the league's best 3 point shooters on the floor, really, what is the fucking point? And I get it. Maybe I'm oversimplifying. I hope a month from now, I'm apologizing for yet another stupid take I had. But to look on the other side of the court tomorrow against this Boston Celtics team and see a roster that's just loaded with guys who are killing it from outside the arc, A lineup of 4 or 5 guys, all of whom can lace it from 3.
• 32:23
  I'm jealous, and it's frustrating.
• 32:25
  Jordan Zirm: It it is. Yeah. No. I think you're I think you're right about the Niang thing. I mean, I think they love his you know, they obviously love sort of his attitude and his fire, and I do think, like, that's something that that the Cavs sorely lacked last season for sure.
• 32:39
  So I think there's benefits. And, yeah, if he's hitting his threes, yeah, like you said, he has those games where he's pulling up with no conscious and he's draining and he goes on his own little 9:0 run and it changes the game like that. But like you said, I think he would admit right now, like, he might need a game off. He's, you know, he's just, like, give him a game off and then bring him to, like, give him some time or, yeah, give him 3, 4 minutes. And if he's not having it, like, alright, man, come on back.
• 33:00
  Like, we need you. We can't have you. You're actively hurting the team playing like this. So, I think that would probably go a long way for George just to reset himself a little bit.
• 33:10
  Bob: This I always gave Nang Nang credit for as opposed to Wade is that Wade basically has no floor game. So even when George was missing, there was a little stretch in December January where I'm not saying he's some kill you off the drive guy, but he would make these, you know, bank shots off the side elbows, drive down the lane when he got a step. Like, he's not fast. He added at least a little bit outside of just the 3 point shot, and that's all but abandoned him this month. So, it will be interesting to see what that position of, you know, the first big man off the bench bells.
• 33:42
  Because right now, there's a a lot left to be desired by both. But I think sort of the same way I felt about the, you know, the core four lineup is the way I feel about Dean where it's like, well, we haven't reached peak Dean, but his floor is so high just because of his defense. Because I I I liked what he did a lot in that next game in terms of, you know, forcing some turnovers, contesting some boy on shots, and boy on just looked to try to score less once Dean checked into the game. So to the Celtics. Okay.
• 34:09
  We've we've wallowed in the misery of this, Knicks situation. We have now the sad part is while it sucks to lose to the Knicks, my focus isn't really even on them right now because who knows who rolls into the playoffs with them and what is the likelihood that we'll even see them and whether they're a bad matchup. That's kind of beside the point for me with this season series behind us. Now we head into, you know, 2 nationally televised games in the span of the next 3 against teams that one is, I guess, what you could call maybe the most similar build to us, except that Karl Anthony Towns is an elite 3 point shooter. But 2 very big guys who play a lot of minutes alongside one another in a very solid defensive team, the best defensive team in the NBA.
• 34:52
  We got passed last night for the 2nd best defensive team in the NBA after the Celtics just annihilated the Golden State Warriors. It almost feels like they have an answer for anything you could throw at them. I'm curious what you think the best case scenario is for the Cavs as to how to get them out of I mean, this is a prolific 3 point shooting team. They have 2 guys who, if you decide to switch on all the screens, they can just take you to the rim. Jaylen Brown has been unbelievable.
• 35:24
  12th in the NBA and first quarter scoring and over this stretch since the all star break. Those two players have been unreal, and all of the the shooting has been so deadly. If you don't close out on their shooters. And the way that we close out on against the Knicks 3 point shooters gives me a lot of pause that this could be ugly tomorrow.
• 35:44
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. I mean, it's gonna be really, really difficult. They are playing at a level. I I mean, I watched the first half of that game against the warriors, and I was just like, I I don't know what I mean, the warriors played bad, played poorly too, but I don't know what you do against that roster when they're shooting like that. I think it's funny.
• 36:03
  You know, sometimes I think you let teams that love to shoot a volume of threes like that. You sort of, like, let them fall in love with it and hope that they miss enough and you can get out on the break with long rebounds. But, like, the Celtics are so deadly shooting the 3 ball. I almost am, like, run them off the line and try to funnel them inside to Evan and and Jared. And, like, if they make twos, they make twos, but they they kill you when they go on those runs.
• 36:28
  It's a minute has gone past. They hit 4 threes. It's a 12 nothing run. Guys like Peyton freaking Pritchard are pulling up. You know, you're just like everybody on that roster shoots.
• 36:37
  Bob: I was looking up some stats today. They're 37 and 2 when they convert on over 35% of their 3 point looks. They're 9 and 4 when they convert between 30 35% of their threes, And there's only 9 games this entire season where they've shot less than 30% on 3 point makes, and they're 3 and 6 in those. The corner 3 point percentage. The cavaliers are 26th in the league in converting on corner threes.
• 37:02
  We're around 37%. The Celtics are second. Drew Holiday is shooting 68% from the left corner, 67% from the right corner, and and that's just one of the, you know, role players in the offense because Derrick White is shooting nearly 50% from the left corner and nearly 40% from the right corner. Sam Houser's unbelievable. They've just got a a wealth of 3 point shooters.
• 37:27
  You have to close on everyone. And to have 2 line drive guys like a Jayson Tatum and a Jaylen Brown, it's like you said. The captain never really went after that archetype where it's like even in scenarios where we've put a respectable lineup of 3 point shooters around Darius and Donovan, it's a lot more laborious to ask those guys to go to the rim again and again and again. And the warriors, their strategy seemed to be, we're just gonna have Draymond Green play 20 feet off of Jaylen Brown, and he murdered them. And I was curious if you heard Draymond's comments
• 38:01
  Jordan Zirm: in the course. I I did hear Draymond's comments, which felt, felt like something you say when you don't really have any anything else to say about what just happened to you in a blowout. His first quarter strategy was to kinda have you sag off Jaylen and and try to clog the paint. Didn't Not necessarily seem
• 38:17
  Drop: It worked. He just made the shots.
• 38:20
  Bob: It worked. He just made the shots. And then Steve Kerr was a little more diplomatic about it.
• 38:24
  Drop: You know, he's you you try different things. You guard you have to pick your matchups. You know, we wanted, Draymond to be able to help on drives and and make sure that we weren't giving up, easy stuff in the paint. The the, the the killer was the transition. From the beginning all the way till the end, they got 42 transition points.
• 38:42
  So you're not winning a game, you know, with, with that kind of defensive, or lack of defensive awareness.
• 38:51
  Bob: Now the Celtics really aren't much of a transition team compared to a lot of teams in the league. They don't turn people over that much, but they're just so deadly offensively, and they're so principled defensively that it it generally seems to work out. But, I mean, in the first game against them, back in December, we started to lose bodies around the time that we faced them, and we were on this long road swing. And we had an unbelievable Q1 where it looked great, and then JB switched to kind of a zone defense, and we started to get murdered from 3.
• 39:20
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. I I remember that vividly because I was like, why why are they playing zone defense against the best 3 point, shooting team in the league? And it it went downhill quickly.
• 39:31
  Bob: I'm just one of these people sitting here who has no idea. It's JB's problem to figure out. I don't know what way you can necessarily slow them down outside of, like you said, hoping for an outlier situation where they just shoot horrifically, which is so rare this season. Maybe Porzingis is out and you're able to take advantage a little bit in the inside. But even then, I think that's kinda wishful thinking.
• 39:52
  Jordan Zirm: It is. I think if there's one thing that they get caught up in, it is because they shoot so many threes that I mean, some of the 3 point shots that Jayson Tatum pulls up for our absolutely like, just insane. Like, he's he'll pull and he'll get into it and he'll he'll take some really bad what are bad 3 pointers? Sometimes it doesn't matter. I think that is really the only the only thing you can hope is sometimes they fall in love with it like that where they're gonna pull and they're gonna take some legitimately bad shots.
• 40:19
  But again, like, I mean, I know the warriors don't have the sort of big personnel behind them where they can funnel guys. But I my strategy would not be let them shoot threes. So I'm I'm not sure it's a huge ask of this of this roster, especially without Donovan, because you're gonna need to keep it. They're gonna score. Right?
• 40:36
  Like, the Celtics are gonna score it. You're gonna have to try and keep up with that. I don't think your plan can be, well, hopefully, we shut them down defensively because they're so, so good. And without Donovan, so it's gonna be hard. I would take less from this game against the Celtics than the Knicks game, which even the Knicks game felt a little wonky.
• 40:53
  I would this game is gonna be like, listen. If they lose by they might lose by 30, and I think you just have to be like, I I don't know what you do. What are you supposed to do with, without a couple of the guys and and how the Celtics are playing? But, I, you know, I I think the flip side of it is though that outside of the Celtics, there is no like, the Eastern Conference is a mess. So it's like, listen.
• 41:14
  Let the Celtics do their thing. Maybe they run into an opponent in the playoffs, and they can't hit their threes. And because they rely so heavily on threes, that's how they lose. Besides that with, you know, what the 70 sixers are going through without Embiid and the Knicks now with, like, I guess Brunson is questionable, but man, that looked so serious. Like, you just you never know.
• 41:34
  So it's it's there for the Cavs to throw themselves in the mix and hopefully avoid Boston even in the 2nd round if they can. That should be their goal is to I
• 41:44
  Bob: think that should be everyone's goal.
• 41:45
  Jordan Zirm: Not slip out. Yeah. So we'll see. But, yeah, it's gonna be I mean, I think you're gonna see the distinction in play styles between 2 teams, especially when the Cavs do have their 2 bigs, on the floor, like, it's gonna be it's gonna be very stark in how the Celtics play and move the ball, and their personnel, which is just basically 5 out and how the Cavs play. It's gonna be a very stark difference in styles.
• 42:07
  Bob: I share your feeling. Boston seems like the clear favorite to me. I don't see many weaknesses outside of praying for injury, which is probably not something I should do, but I'm a scumbag. It looks like Milwaukee, who's on a tear since all star break, they're 5 and o. Their defense is incredible, since Yep.
• 42:25
  Since they've come back. How do you think it all shakes out with the top 4 seeds in the east?
• 42:30
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the Celtics are obviously they're they're 8a half up, so they've got that one seed on lock. I I agree with you about the Bucks, and I just am not gonna bet against a team with Giannis who can put up like a 40, 20, and 20 stat line whenever he feels like it. And I think, you know, with I think the change for Dame has been so jarring going from being in Portland for his entire career to to this.
• 42:57
  He's gotten off to a slow start, but, I know Giannis is out tonight. I don't know what the score of that game is right now, but I know that Dame got off to, I think he had 15 in the first. So I know that I I think Dame is gonna find himself, and those are just that's a duo that I just think is is gonna be tough if they're playing defense like this down the stretch.
• 43:14
  Bob: At the time that, we're taping this, it's 81 Clippers, $69.
• 43:18
  Jordan Zirm: So Oh, okay. Well, that is that's turned a bit. I would put I think the Bucks will will will snag the 2 seed. I I do think the Cavs will hold on to the 3 seed. My fingers are crossed there a little bit, but I do think they have enough distance, between themselves and the Knicks.
• 43:34
  You know, even if if Jaylen doesn't miss any time, I think they do. Those injuries just have really caught up to them. I that's probably how I'd go right now. I'd go Bucks, Cavs, Knicks. I would love, you know, for the Bucks to go through another wall and the Cavs can sort of sneak into that 2 seed just, you know, in in the last couple weeks of the season.
• 43:52
  But like you said, their defense has been on another planet since the all star break. And, if they've sort of figured out how to do that, then they can work through their offensive stuff with Dame and Giannis and how they wanna play, and it may not matter that much. So that that's kinda where I'm at.
• 44:05
  Bob: Alright. I have one hypothetical for you, and then I will Alright. I'm let you
• 44:09
  Jordan Zirm: I'm ready.
• 44:10
  Bob: Let's say that we're in the 3 c. It's coming down to the last game or 2, and the 6th seed is the Philadelphia 70 sixers with Joel Embiid back in the fold, would you consider pulling the Dallas Mavericks, sliding down to the 4, knowing that even if you were to advance, you'd have to see the Celtics in round 2, or would you wanna stay put where you are in the 3 and take your chances against the and beat led Philadelphia 70 sixers? A team which beat us twice without him in the last month.
• 44:41
  Jordan Zirm: Man, that is a, that is a great question. That's a that's an unfortunate scenario, one that could become very real. I honestly think I'd take my chances with with the 70 sixers. I think, 1, because depending on when Embiid comes back and how much runway he's gotten before, he could be very, very rusty. He could be not in the shape that he wants to be.
• 45:06
  So I would I wonder if he I mean, it's the playoffs, but I wonder if they'd have to have a minute restriction in any way on him, like, if they could ramp him up fully. And then 2, I just think there's a little bit of, you know, the Philly's playoff history has not been great with Embiid there. And I I just feel like those it's the same thing that's gonna sort of loom over the Cavs where you have this sort of external pressure over your sort of past. And for the 70 sixers, it's way worse because they've had plenty of years with Embiid playing out of his mind, and they have not been able to advance, as far as they would have liked. So I think I would take my chances because I think meeting the Celtics in the second round would be death.
• 45:45
  Like, I just don't think you're I don't think the Cavs are equipped this season to beat the Celtics in the second round. I I I'd be I'd love to take your chance in the Eastern Conference finals and just say, you know, throw it to the wind, kinda like, when the Hawks made it and played the Bucks and gave them a little run for their money because it was just like the Hawks in the Eastern Conference finals. Like, what? So, I I think I would hang in there, but that's, that's not something I had thought about. And that's a that's a great hypothetical to bring out because that could absolutely be something that's happening.
• 46:13
  Bob: I I wanted to thank you, man, for taking the time to come on the podcast. I appreciate you, you know, getting out of work and then slumming it with me.
• 46:20
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah, man. This is, this is really fun. I haven't had a ton of, opportunities to to talk Cavs with, with guys that are are watching the games, with the same level of of interest that I am. So this was, this was a treat. So appreciate you you having me on so I can, so I could chat a little bit.
• 46:37
  Bob: Well, are you headed to the clipper game on 7th April?
• 46:41
  Jordan Zirm: I unfortunately so they always they have a back to back where they play the clippers and lakers every year. And I've gone to 1. I've I've this is my 5th year out here. I've gone to 1 every year. My rude friend is getting married, during that weekend.
• 46:55
  Bob: Is he is he a Cavs fan?
• 46:57
  Jordan Zirm: I he's from Cleveland. He is a Cavs fan. And I said, what do you do? Cancel it. I don't understand.
• 47:01
  Bob: Yeah. Priorities.
• 47:02
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. Cancel it. So I, unfortunately, will not be there, and, my streak will be over. So, hopefully, they can, you know, they can play well knowing that I will not be in the stands rooting for them. Hopefully, they could still play well and Yeah.
• 47:14
  For your friends one one of those 2. Yeah.
• 47:16
  Bob: For your friends' sake. Because if they lose, you know, that's just gonna follow him.
• 47:19
  Jordan Zirm: Oh, it's I'm like, you're listen. You're I don't wanna be rude, but your wedding doesn't if they lose, your wedding doesn't stand chance. Your marriage is gonna your marriage is gonna
• 47:26
  Bob: stop. That's it. You're out. So okay. Everybody who doesn't follow Jordan at Jordan Zirm, do that now.
• 47:32
  And, hopefully, the next time we speak, it'll be, coming off a win as opposed to coming off a loss. We'll reverse this streak.
• 47:39
  Jordan Zirm: Yeah. That would be great. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think sometimes we it's easy to be frustrated. You know?
• 47:46
  I think there is still you know, fortunately, we have had a lot of highs from this season. I think, like, my overall philosophy is, like, listen. Play the do play the dudes that are good and help you win. You know? Like, that help.
• 47:56
  But that's all I'm asking for. Just play the fun play Sam Merrill who brings me joy untold amounts of joy.
• 48:02
  Bob: Exactly what thing. I feel like it's simpleton sometimes, but I see these arguments about, like, well, you've gotta build the perfect 9 to 10. I'm like, fuck it. Play 7. If everybody's playing good, I don't give a shit.
• 48:12
  Like, I'm
• 48:12
  Jordan Zirm: not Yeah.
• 48:12
  Bob: I I have a hard time obsessing over that stuff. I just look at it like, okay. When Sam plays more than 20 minutes, we're 12 and 2. Maybe play Sam. You know?
• 48:21
  And if and if that trend turns back the other way over a significant sample of time, well, then I hope that JB does what we talked about, which is be fluid.
• 48:29
  Jordan Zirm: All I know is that when Sam did that, he caught the ball, didn't like it, dribbled, curled, and just pulled up, hit the 3. I said, this is better than sex.
• 48:37
  Bob: The Okoro pass where he just oh, it was magical. It was so magical. Telling you. So That's
• 48:42
  Jordan Zirm: all I want. It's all I want, Bob.
• 48:43
  Bob: Well, hopefully, I mean, I will be you you nobody will be able to talk to me if we pull up a victory over the Boston Celtics, and Sam Merrill drops 30 points. Really fun talking to you. Thank you for joining me on the Fear of the Pearl podcast. And, hopefully, one of these days, we'll be able to meet up for a cavalier trip to Los Angeles on a nonwedding weekend.
• 49:02
  Jordan Zirm: I would love that, man. Thanks again for having me.
• 49:04
  Bob: So there you have it, guys. Jordan Zerm on the Fear the Fro podcast. Big week ahead of us. We'll be back with more. But if I could ask one favor before we leave.
• 49:13
  Well, 2 favors. 1, if you wanna participate in the podcast, the audio mailbag is open at cavspod.com. There's a button. You click it. It says talk to Bob.
• 49:23
  You can record a message, a question, a comment, a disagreement, etcetera. I will work it into the pot. Secondarily, we are at 95. 5 star reviews on the Spotify, you know, podcasting platform. I believe we're at 55 ish on Apple.
• 49:40
  If you have not left a rating or a view and you would consider doing so, I would be very grateful. And tell you what, I'm not gonna ask something without giving something in return, so I shall now curse out Walt Frazier. Here's that turncoat former cavalier twat disparaging Isaac Okoro yesterday.
• 50:00
  Walt Frazier: Okoro is not a good perimeter shooter.
• 50:02
  Bob: Fuck you, Walt. Why don't you look at the stats that say you're a fucking garishly dressed liar? We put up a sign for you outside of the locker room, and you're out here disparaging Isaac Okoro.
• 50:14
  Walt Frazier: Korel for 3. 3. Hits it again. Korel's made 2 threes tonight. I previously left elbow.
• 50:21
  Normally not his forte.
• 50:24
  Bob: Not his forte. You're on the watch list. You're on the enemy of the pod watch list, Frasier. I'm not elevating you to that point yet because quite frankly, my last enemy of the pods take Tim Bon temps is, what's kinda humiliating me right now. I don't feel like I'm winning that narrative agenda battle that I'm in.
• 50:43
  So I'm just gonna ride it out and hope for the best, but you would be the best if you left me a 5 star review. Okay. One more uplifting message before we leave. I know it can be incredibly difficult to remain optimistic when things like what happened on Sunday happen and when things like what may happen tonight happen. But what you need to remember is there are more things that unite us than divide us, and one of those things is this great nation, the United States of America.
• 51:13
  So I leave you with this, the national anthem as performed by an 11 year old at an Indiana Pacers game.