Latest / Inside Politics / Salacious texts and detail, but did the corruption watchdog’s first case fall flat?

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Salacious texts and detail, but did the corruption watchdog’s first case fall flat? · Inside Politics

• 0:00
  S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
• 0:03
  S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, July 4th.
• 0:12
  S1: The creation of a national anti-corruption commission was a key
• 0:15
  S1: labor promise before it won government in 2022. The commission
• 0:20
  S1: was duly created and this week it released the findings
• 0:23
  S1: of its first ever investigation. But was it a little anti-climactic?
• 0:28
  S1: Can we hope for bigger and better corruption busting in
• 0:30
  S1: the future? Plus, we check in on economic matters, including
• 0:34
  S1: interest rate cuts and the confusing matter of the Trump
• 0:37
  S1: tariffs and their effect on the Australian economy. Joining me
• 0:41
  S1: to discuss we have first time Inside politics guest, a
• 0:43
  S1: much honoured new star, federal politics reporter Olivia Island, and
• 0:48
  S1: our longtime special guest star, senior economics correspondent Shane Wright.
• 0:52
  S1: Welcome to you both.
• 0:54
  S2: Good to be here. Thank you very much.
• 0:56
  S3: Don't take any pressure from what Jack just said to you, Olivia, like,
• 1:00
  S3: as a special guest star, I've come to lean into it.
• 1:04
  S1: We can call you a veteran, which is a bit
• 1:05
  S1: of a backhanded compliment. My favorite kind.
• 1:09
  S3: And I. And I accept that. I'll accept.
• 1:11
  S1: That. Live. At the start of the week, the newly
• 1:14
  S1: minted National Anti-Corruption Commission released the findings of its first
• 1:18
  S1: ever investigation. What was it about and what were the findings?
• 1:22
  S2: So a senior public servant had corruptly promoted her sister's
• 1:27
  S2: fiancee to his dream job in the Department of Home Affairs.
• 1:31
  S2: The investigation found the public servant abused her office by
• 1:35
  S2: promoting the fiancee as a candidate for a position, and
• 1:39
  S2: then praised him to colleagues, created the job requisition. Um
• 1:44
  S2: approved it herself, and she also forged a signature to
• 1:48
  S2: fast track the onboarding and the way that the commission
• 1:53
  S2: approved this was the case. They were able to obtain
• 1:56
  S2: text messages between her and her sister about the entire
• 2:00
  S2: process of getting the fiance into the Department of Home Affairs.
• 2:05
  S2: They're pretty, pretty awkward kind of text messages. A great
• 2:09
  S2: example is the woman who hired the fiance. When she
• 2:14
  S2: hired him, she texted her sister saying, I just want
• 2:18
  S2: to hug him. Thank God he stuck his hand out first.
• 2:21
  S2: And then the sister responded saying, what a good boy.
• 2:25
  S2: He's such a good boy. So really kind of proving this, uh,
• 2:30
  S2: attitude of using the system to your advantage effectively.
• 2:35
  S1: Yeah. And really active deception.
• 2:37
  S2: Very active deception. And using her position of power to
• 2:42
  S2: just get this person through and get him through very quickly.
• 2:47
  S1: The finding of the investigation was basically that there was
• 2:49
  S1: corruption there. Um, it was sort of a case of nepotism,
• 2:52
  S1: I suppose. What was the outcome or what were the penalty,
• 2:55
  S1: if any?
• 2:56
  S2: So it was unclear what the actual outcome was from
• 3:00
  S2: the actual NAC report. So the NAC did their investigation
• 3:04
  S2: and they didn't identify this person. So the way we
• 3:09
  S2: found out what the outcome was for this person was
• 3:12
  S2: to go to the Department of Home Affairs, and the
• 3:15
  S2: department confirmed that her employment was ceased. But she hasn't
• 3:20
  S2: really lost any sort of reputation, I suppose, because the
• 3:25
  S2: NAC decided to keep her identity a secret.
• 3:29
  S1: Yeah. Okay. And why would they have decided that? Why
• 3:32
  S1: would they have protected her identity?
• 3:33
  S2: They based it off a couple of reasons. The big
• 3:36
  S2: one that they argued was the issue of identifying witnesses.
• 3:41
  S2: So because this woman got someone in who was the
• 3:46
  S2: fiancé of her sister, it would become quite obvious as
• 3:49
  S2: to who the sister was and who the fiancé was.
• 3:52
  S2: And those two weren't found to be corrupt. It was
• 3:55
  S2: only this particular woman. But experts in the integrity space
• 4:00
  S2: were arguing that this is a pretty loose, uh, reason
• 4:04
  S2: to have someone de-identified. Um, they're sort of saying that
• 4:09
  S2: in any kind of typical prosecution case, witnesses are identified
• 4:14
  S2: all the time, and that is a completely acceptable and
• 4:17
  S2: normal element to it. So, uh, yeah, a lot of
• 4:20
  S2: integrity experts are kind of claiming that this is sort
• 4:23
  S2: of a cultural thing with the knack of just remaining
• 4:27
  S2: so secret.
• 4:29
  S1: Nepotism in the public service is obviously inappropriate and has
• 4:32
  S1: been found to be corrupt in this case. But the
• 4:35
  S1: matter doesn't it doesn't seem like a huge systemic sort
• 4:38
  S1: of headline corruption controversy, you know, the likes of which
• 4:42
  S1: we're more used to seeing here in New South Wales,
• 4:44
  S1: for example, with ICAC, which has made some very big,
• 4:47
  S1: big decisions and big cases, it almost felt a little flat.
• 4:52
  S1: I'm gonna say, for the first decision of the National
• 4:55
  S1: Anti-Corruption Commission, how was it received around Parliament?
• 4:59
  S2: It was almost crickets when it came to what the like,
• 5:04
  S2: how people reacted to it. Frankly, there was really no
• 5:07
  S2: reaction because it was such a minor case, as you say,
• 5:10
  S2: within the public service. I think the Albanese government made
• 5:14
  S2: a very deliberate decision to ensure the NAcc wasn't going
• 5:20
  S2: to be this kind of big tabloid kind of organisation
• 5:24
  S2: that was going to get significant kind of cases and attention.
• 5:30
  S2: And that's caused a lot of criticism throughout, because people
• 5:35
  S2: are starting to question whether or not this organisation is
• 5:37
  S2: actually doing what it's supposed to do, which is to
• 5:40
  S2: keep very powerful individuals to account. And a lot of
• 5:44
  S2: integrity experts argue, the way that you do that is
• 5:47
  S2: identifying people and actually going for cases that are like
• 5:52
  S2: higher profile than sort of these menial kind of mid-career
• 5:56
  S2: public servants.
• 5:57
  S1: Yeah. And just sort of one job or one case
• 5:59
  S1: or one job. So speaking of sort of bigger, like
• 6:02
  S1: bigger whales, if you like. There was the robodebt investigation,
• 6:06
  S1: which listeners will remember were debts that were raised between
• 6:10
  S1: 2015 and 2019 by the former coalition government, and they
• 6:14
  S1: were raised using um average Australian Tax Office income information.
• 6:18
  S1: And a lot of them were, I think, about half
• 6:20
  S1: a million people in the end were asked to repay
• 6:23
  S1: debts that they didn't actually owe. That was a huge
• 6:25
  S1: scandal for the Morrison government. It was, of course, examined
• 6:29
  S1: by a Royal commission which was commissioned by the Albanese government.
• 6:32
  S1: And there was talk that the National Anti-Corruption Commission would
• 6:35
  S1: be involved in that. Can you bring us up to speed?
• 6:38
  S2: That has been quite a rigmarole for the National Anti-Corruption Commission.
• 6:43
  S2: So basically, the Commission at first decided not to investigate
• 6:49
  S2: these six individuals that were identified by the Royal Commission
• 6:53
  S2: as needing to be investigated.
• 6:56
  S1: And this is this is sort of senior public servants
• 6:58
  S1: that the commissioner was very critical of in her investigation.
• 7:01
  S2: Yes. And, um, that really raised a lot of controversy.
• 7:06
  S2: And so there's actually a body that is, uh, in
• 7:10
  S2: charge of overseeing the NAC. So it's kind of like
• 7:13
  S2: the NAC for the NAC, if you will. Um, and
• 7:17
  S2: that body investigated that decision and found that the commissioner
• 7:21
  S2: of the National Anti-Corruption Commission, Paul Brereton, had acted in
• 7:26
  S2: a way that made the case sort of not go
• 7:30
  S2: in the direction that it should have gone, because he
• 7:33
  S2: didn't fully pull himself out of a case when he
• 7:36
  S2: knew someone involved in this robodebt saga.
• 7:40
  S1: He personally knew the person.
• 7:42
  S2: Yes.
• 7:42
  S1: Um, and yeah, well, that's Canberra for you as well,
• 7:45
  S1: isn't it. Very. It's a small town, Canberra.
• 7:47
  S2: Um, so then, uh, the NAC has decided to reinvestigate
• 7:53
  S2: this case, and so they are currently now back in
• 7:56
  S2: on it. It's currently underway. Paul Brereton isn't involved this time.
• 8:00
  S2: And the latest update from the NAC on this is
• 8:03
  S2: that it's still being investigated.
• 8:05
  S1: Do you think that that means that the NAC is
• 8:07
  S1: sort of open to accusations of being a bit toothless,
• 8:10
  S1: you know, being a bit basically a bit weak? I mean,
• 8:13
  S1: the Albanese government brought it in with so much fanfare,
• 8:16
  S1: and it was a bit of a political play, I suppose,
• 8:18
  S1: during that 2022 election campaign to shine a light on
• 8:22
  S1: some of the more dubious and unethical practices that we'd
• 8:25
  S1: seen happen within the Morrison government and among some of
• 8:27
  S1: the ministers there. Is it just is it all for show?
• 8:30
  S1: I mean, is it actually going to sort of brush
• 8:33
  S1: out any real corruption? Do you think.
• 8:34
  S2: It's really a watch this space? But we've been saying
• 8:37
  S2: that since it began in mid 2023. So it is um,
• 8:44
  S2: it's getting a real kind of cohort of people, particularly
• 8:48
  S2: like lawyers, integrity activists, uh, in this space, getting incredibly
• 8:53
  S2: frustrated and are calling it a toothless organisation. And I think,
• 8:59
  S2: you know, the Albanese government created the NAC, but no
• 9:04
  S2: government wants to get in trouble and no government wants
• 9:08
  S2: to have bad publicity. So I think there were a
• 9:12
  S2: lot of provisions in this legislation, particularly that a lot
• 9:16
  S2: of hearings are in closed door hearings like they're not public. Um,
• 9:21
  S2: even this like recent case, it was completely, um, closed.
• 9:26
  S1: In-camera.
• 9:26
  S2: We had no idea about it until it came out.
• 9:29
  S2: And also, the NAC does get to decide what kind
• 9:32
  S2: of cases they can put public media releases out about.
• 9:36
  S2: So we we don't know necessarily if this is the
• 9:40
  S2: first investigation they've completed or if there are others. Um,
• 9:45
  S2: it's it's very difficult to kind of keep up to
• 9:49
  S2: date as to what kinds of cases it is looking into.
• 9:53
  S2: Aside from robo debt, because there's been so much interest
• 9:55
  S2: in it. Um, so yeah, it definitely has established this
• 10:00
  S2: kind of reputation by certain people as being a toothless organisation.
• 10:06
  S1: And sort of operating in some. With some level of
• 10:09
  S1: secrecy or a lack of transparency to to media. Anyway,
• 10:12
  S1: it sounds like it's really interesting, and we would definitely
• 10:15
  S1: like to have you back on another time to talk
• 10:17
  S1: about it and keep us updated. We have to segue
• 10:26
  S1: sharply now to matters economics, so that our special guest star, Shane,
• 10:30
  S1: can bring us glad tidings, because it sounds like the
• 10:34
  S1: reserve Bank is going to cut us a break next week.
• 10:37
  S3: Well, it's if you've got debt, it's a good thing.
• 10:40
  S1: Well, let's assume that I've got some debt, okay.
• 10:43
  S3: I would never make that assumption about you.
• 10:45
  S1: I live.
• 10:46
  S3: In Sydney.
• 10:46
  S1: So.
• 10:47
  S3: Yeah, but, yeah, like, um, the reserve Bank. It's been
• 10:51
  S3: talking about quiet. The RBA, since it cut rates in
• 10:55
  S3: May has been quiet very little in terms of public commentary, but, uh,
• 11:00
  S3: financial markets and economists think or Michelle Bullock, She's going
• 11:03
  S3: to stand up next Tuesday after the their meeting and go, look,
• 11:08
  S3: we're going to take another quarter percentage point off the
• 11:11
  S3: cash rate, which would take it down to 3.6 on
• 11:14
  S3: a mortgage of your caliber Maly, uh, at least $100
• 11:20
  S3: a month saving on top of the, uh, couple of
• 11:23
  S3: hundreds that's been saved over the from the February and, um,
• 11:28
  S3: May cuts.
• 11:29
  S1: Okay. So let's let's without making any assumptions about the
• 11:32
  S1: size of my mortgage one way or the other. But
• 11:35
  S1: according to what you wrote earlier in the week, it
• 11:37
  S1: will equal $300 a month in savings on a $600,000 mortgage.
• 11:41
  S1: All the cuts combined since February and March. Yeah, yeah,
• 11:45
  S1: May I should say.
• 11:45
  S3: And it's all playing out because of what's going on
• 11:47
  S3: in inflation. Um, which like we got figures last week
• 11:52
  S3: the best like these were monthly inflation figures. They are
• 11:55
  S3: a little bit noisier than the quarterly ones. However everyone's
• 11:59
  S3: looked at the details of those and gone look the
• 12:02
  S3: RBA like remember, in May, the RBA discussed whether to
• 12:06
  S3: have a quarter or a half a percentage point cut. Yeah.
• 12:09
  S3: And since then, the jobs market is still going nowhere.
• 12:13
  S3: Wages growth is slightly coming down, which has been one
• 12:16
  S3: of the concerns.
• 12:17
  S1: And retail sales as well are a little bit sluggish
• 12:19
  S1: aren't they.
• 12:20
  S3: Retail sales have gone effectively nowhere since the RBA has
• 12:23
  S3: started cutting.
• 12:24
  S1: That brings us to the international scenario. I mean there's
• 12:28
  S1: so much volatility obviously coming from the white House. What's
• 12:31
  S1: the Federal Reserve doing about interest rates for Americans just
• 12:34
  S1: quickly and.
• 12:35
  S3: Fending fending Jerome Powell.
• 12:38
  S1: Jerome Powell. So he's the chair of the Federal Reserve
• 12:40
  S1: in the US which is yeah, like.
• 12:42
  S3: He's America's answer to Michelle Bullock. He is fending off
• 12:45
  S3: like even even on Thursday Donald Trump is demanding that
• 12:50
  S3: he resigns.
• 12:51
  S4: I'd love him to resign if he wanted to. He's
• 12:53
  S4: done a lousy job. Look, if you were there, you'd say, well,
• 12:58
  S4: you know, the United States is doing well. They have
• 13:01
  S4: no inflation.
• 13:03
  S1: And Donald Trump has had a few sort of has
• 13:05
  S1: been cooking up a feud with him for a while,
• 13:07
  S1: and it really reignited this week.
• 13:08
  S3: It did when he produced from a new list. I'm
• 13:13
  S3: I is being used very heavily inside the white House.
• 13:16
  S3: It was a list of 44 nations ranked from lowest
• 13:19
  S3: to highest interest rates, and for some reason the US
• 13:23
  S3: was compared with economic powerhouses such as Cape Verde, Libya,
• 13:29
  S3: the Congo and Algeria.
• 13:32
  S1: So basically, Donald Trump is very annoyed that the Federal
• 13:35
  S1: Reserve and Jerome Powell in particular, are keeping interest rates
• 13:38
  S1: too high, in his opinion. What does Jerome Powell said
• 13:40
  S1: about this? Because he made some comments at a European
• 13:42
  S1: conference this week.
• 13:44
  S3: Yeah, he got a round of applause saying I'm just
• 13:46
  S3: focused on my job.
• 13:47
  S5: You get attacked by by the president a lot on
• 13:50
  S5: a personal basis. Does it make your job harder?
• 13:54
  S6: I'm very focused on just doing my job. I mean,
• 13:56
  S6: there are things that the things that matter are using
• 13:59
  S6: our tools to achieve the goals that Congress has given us.
• 14:02
  S6: Maximum employment and Employment price stability. Financial stability. And that's
• 14:06
  S6: that's what we focus on 100%.
• 14:12
  S3: Now to get a rousing applause from a bunch of
• 14:14
  S3: central bankers. That's a tough crowd, let me assure you.
• 14:18
  S3: These guys don't do comedy. And he made this other point,
• 14:21
  S3: which we haven't got onto, which is the big beautiful Bill,
• 14:24
  S3: which is this piece of legislation that will increase America's
• 14:29
  S3: debt by a touch over $3 trillion over the next decade,
• 14:34
  S3: when they're running 36 trillion in debt. They had another
• 14:37
  S3: budget deficit last month, just another $300 billion. And he
• 14:41
  S3: just pointed out the budgets. The budget is unsustainable in
• 14:44
  S3: its current path. So Jerome and Donald are unlikely to
• 14:49
  S3: be sitting around the dinner table anytime soon, having a
• 14:52
  S3: good time.
• 14:53
  S1: I mean, it's going to be interesting to see it
• 14:55
  S1: play out because Jerome Powell is obviously not planning on
• 14:57
  S1: going anywhere. He also said that they're sort of they're
• 15:00
  S1: on pause a little bit because they don't know what
• 15:02
  S1: the impact of all the tariffs is going to be
• 15:04
  S1: further down the track. So they're not making any false
• 15:07
  S1: or sudden moves before then. And speaking of tariffs, I
• 15:10
  S1: just want you to bring us up to speed with
• 15:12
  S1: the US tariffs and their impact on our economy, because
• 15:15
  S1: I think a lot of people will have gotten confused
• 15:17
  S1: or lost track. Obviously next Tuesday is 90 days since
• 15:21
  S1: Liberation Day, when Trump announced all his sweeping tariffs on
• 15:24
  S1: US trading partners, including Australia. And then he placed a
• 15:27
  S1: 90 day pause on some of them. Where are we
• 15:30
  S1: up to in terms of the tariffs that are in
• 15:31
  S1: play on Australia now?
• 15:32
  S3: Right. There's a 10% tariff if you go into the
• 15:34
  S3: US at the moment. It is really that simple.
• 15:37
  S1: And then that's a baseline.
• 15:39
  S3: That's the baseline. And then there's all which there are
• 15:42
  S3: all these other higher tariffs like we've discussed what the
• 15:47
  S3: craziness around say China for instance. Like it ended up
• 15:50
  S3: at 100 and I lost track of once we got
• 15:52
  S3: into the hundreds somewhere. Yeah. But there's also say the
• 15:54
  S3: tariffs on steel and aluminium. They are in place.
• 15:57
  S1: So these tariffs on Australian products all 10% at this point.
• 16:02
  S3: Which we're always at the base.
• 16:04
  S1: And that was the special deal that we kind of
• 16:06
  S1: got allegedly, that we only got we got the low,
• 16:08
  S1: the low tariff.
• 16:09
  S3: I wouldn't call it.
• 16:10
  S1: Special.
• 16:11
  S3: Because there were a lot of other this is it
• 16:13
  S3: like say Britain, like people have talked about special Britain
• 16:16
  S3: got this great deal like they have a tariff deal.
• 16:18
  S3: But British imports to the exports of the United States
• 16:22
  S3: are still getting hit with a 10% tariff. And this comes,
• 16:24
  S3: I come back to the big beautiful bill because without
• 16:27
  S3: the tariffs he cannot pay for the huge tax cuts.
• 16:32
  S3: And the US. You can see it in their data
• 16:35
  S3: right now. The big lift that they're getting in tariff
• 16:38
  S3: revenue which was like 3/5 of nothing um at the
• 16:43
  S3: start of the year is now I think it's around 0.8%
• 16:47
  S3: of GDP. It's on its way to 1.2, which Trump
• 16:50
  S3: desperately needs. And this has been his whole argument. We
• 16:53
  S3: will bring in tariffs to pay for tax cuts. He's
• 16:56
  S3: doing a tax switch. That is what he's doing. So
• 16:58
  S3: he's got to do it.
• 16:59
  S1: Yeah. Doesn't that prove that he's right I mean he's
• 17:02
  S1: bringing in a source of revenue for the United States.
• 17:05
  S1: And he's using it for the United, the people of
• 17:07
  S1: the United States, giving it back to them.
• 17:09
  S3: I'm glad you asked, Jackie. I'm glad you asked. One
• 17:12
  S3: is he's like, say that he's not raising enough. That's
• 17:16
  S3: so as to.
• 17:17
  S1: Pay for his tax cuts on on.
• 17:18
  S3: Going. So he's part of the big beautiful bill. They
• 17:21
  S3: actually have had to increase the US debt limit by
• 17:25
  S3: $5 trillion. So if you actually believe we're going to
• 17:28
  S3: offset everything, you don't need to increase the debt limit
• 17:32
  S3: because it's a concession that we're not going to raise
• 17:35
  S3: enough money. The other issue, of course, is right. Say
• 17:38
  S3: high powered, high paid Jack Maley living living there in Manhattan.
• 17:42
  S3: She gets a tax cut on her high end purchases.
• 17:46
  S3: But look, you're a you're a woman of fashion. You'd
• 17:48
  S3: be buying American made, like, high end quality goods.
• 17:53
  S1: Bit of bit of, um, American, American sport luxury kind
• 17:56
  S1: of stuff.
• 17:56
  S3: I think I think you'd be all over that. That's
• 17:59
  S3: not getting hit with a tariff. However, if I'm living out,
• 18:03
  S3: I don't know, in, uh, the back. The back hills
• 18:06
  S3: of Queens and I'm on the average wage is around
• 18:10
  S3: 45 40,000 US. I need cheap Chinese goods so I
• 18:17
  S3: can clothe myself. Oh, they've gone up. So the tax
• 18:20
  S3: which is effect is pushing up inflation on lower paid
• 18:26
  S3: and probably helping those at the at the higher end
• 18:29
  S3: who've also got these big tax cuts. It's a so
• 18:32
  S3: it's really interesting in in terms of what's going on
• 18:35
  S3: in that tax switch itself.
• 18:37
  S1: Okay. Just quickly the tariffs on Australian goods. So it
• 18:40
  S1: mostly hits I think beef steel and aluminium in terms
• 18:43
  S1: of our industries. Has it made much of an impact
• 18:45
  S1: on the Australian economy.
• 18:47
  S3: None.
• 18:48
  S1: Okay.
• 18:48
  S3: And it's actually not not none. Well the beef hasn't
• 18:51
  S3: because one and this is goes back to Jerome Powell
• 18:54
  S3: why he's worried about what's going on. Because the American
• 18:57
  S3: economy people are still buying Australian beef. The 10% tariff
• 19:03
  S3: was not going to have much of an effect because
• 19:05
  S3: there's not enough cows in the United States. They need
• 19:07
  S3: they need Australian cows.
• 19:09
  S1: Yep.
• 19:10
  S3: The steel and aluminium you can see, it's like the
• 19:14
  S3: inflation bubble that's starting to occur there is coming through.
• 19:19
  S3: We can see it in the American economy. The economy
• 19:21
  S3: American economy contracted in the first three months of the year.
• 19:24
  S3: Canada has gone has in April went backwards its economy
• 19:29
  S3: because it's so intertwined with the United States. These and
• 19:33
  S3: we actually saw some job figures earlier this week where
• 19:35
  S3: there's people are the jobs market is starting to soften.
• 19:38
  S3: So we may be starting to see the macro impact
• 19:41
  S3: on the US economy more than us on the American
• 19:45
  S3: economy because of what's going on with the tax switch.
• 19:50
  S3: And this is why this is why he's talking to
• 19:52
  S3: Jerome Powell saying, oh, please cut interest rates. Because what
• 19:57
  S3: Donald Trump has done is causing.
• 19:58
  S1: My immediate problem. Yeah. Yeah I find it absolutely fascinating.
• 20:02
  S1: And you know, we're all so, so entangled with the
• 20:06
  S1: United States, economically and otherwise, that we've got to keep
• 20:08
  S1: an eye on it. Shane will have you back very soon,
• 20:10
  S1: I'm sure. And, Liz, thank you so much for being on.
• 20:13
  S1: It was such a pleasure. I hope this is the
• 20:15
  S1: beginning of a beautiful friendship, and we'll have you on
• 20:17
  S1: many more times. I know she's she's great. Thanks, guys.
• 20:21
  S1: We'll see you soon.
• 20:21
  S2: Thanks very much.
• 20:26
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
• 20:30
  S1: is Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
• 20:34
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• 20:57
  S1: Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.