Latest / Math Therapy / Turns out some folks hate math w/ Jon Orr & Kyle Pearce

Transcript

Turns out some folks hate math w/ Jon Orr & Kyle Pearce · Math Therapy

• 0:02
  Kyle Pearce: We came in as these like, math geeks, both wanted to be math teachers.
• 0:06
  Kyle Pearce: And it was sort of like, one day we were in the classroom and finally realized that other people don't like math, and that's a real shocker, especially when you've gone through schooling and you have this excitement, you want to share it with students.
• 0:20
  Kyle Pearce: And very quickly we recognize that, Oh my gosh, the majority of the students that we've been entrusted to actually educate are not on the same train as us.
• 0:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it.
• 0:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
• 0:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
• 0:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
• 0:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys, big news.
• 1:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is the first time I've had two guests on the podcast at the same time.
• 1:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Editing was a nightmare, David wants to kill me, yet here we are and it was totally worth it.
• 1:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Today you're going to meet Kyle Pearce and Jon Orr, hosts of the podcast Make Math Moments.
• 1:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I tried to start beef with them, but it didn't work because they're like both actually so nice and Canadian.
• 1:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, and instead we ended up having the best chat about how to authentically fuel curiosity, the roots of math trauma, and why some people just hate math.
• 1:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Most shocking of all, we actually did math on the podcast, which I know goes against my little disclaimer in the show intro, but whatever, it all worked out.
• 1:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think.
• 1:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, let's dive in.
• 1:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, Kyle and Jon, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so excited to have you here.
• 1:45
  Kyle Pearce: Hello!
• 1:46
  Jon Orr: We're excited!
• 1:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is the first time I've ever interviewed two people.
• 1:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I actually, like, do people know your names?
• 1:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or do they just know you as, like, the Make Math Moments bros?
• 1:54
  Jon Orr: I don't know.
• 1:55
  Jon Orr: I don't know.
• 1:55
  Jon Orr: You know, I've never really asked anyone if we were the math people or like, do you know who we are?
• 2:01
  Kyle Pearce: But Jon, you gotta, the people who do know one or both of our names always get it backwards.
• 2:07
  Jon Orr: That's true.
• 2:07
  Jon Orr: That's true.
• 2:08
  Kyle Pearce: So at conferences, people call me Jon all the time, and they call Jon Kyle,
• 2:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: all the time.
• 2:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is fine.
• 2:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I didn't know who was who until literally this moment.
• 2:20
  Kyle Pearce: I don't think
• 2:20
  Jon Orr: We're one person.
• 2:21
  Jon Orr: That's, that's, what everyone thinks.
• 2:23
  Jon Orr: You know, we're one person, talking to ourselves every day.
• 2:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, can you, I, I rarely do this, but I'm so confused about what you two actually do.
• 2:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: can you tell me what you do?
• 2:34
  Kyle Pearce: I wish we prepared for this, Jon, cause I'm not sure either.
• 2:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is your role?
• 2:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, why are you here?
• 2:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know that you have the Make Math Moments podcast, which I've been a guest on.
• 2:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know you have the Make Math Moments Teacher's Conference, which I can't wait to talk about because it's one of my favorites.
• 2:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, what's your nine to five?
• 2:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's your morning routine?
• 2:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what's your mission?
• 2:52
  Jon Orr: Well, up till the last, you know, year, uh, we have been, practicing classroom teachers.
• 2:58
  Jon Orr: So, you know, our mission is to help change math instruction for a million students, in terms of trying to get more engagement, but also create that, uh, you know, positive and productive disposition towards mathematics that most people, you know, don't have, you know, knowing you this podcast, Math Therapy, you know that, like the people have this like need to go through math therapy.
• 3:20
  Jon Orr: We're trying to change it from the classroom level.
• 3:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kyle, it's your turn.
• 3:24
  Kyle Pearce: I think for both of us, early in our careers, we came in as these like, math geeks, you know, like we both got math degrees, uh, separately, different universities, never knew each other, both wanted to be math teachers.
• 3:38
  Kyle Pearce: And it was sort of like, one day we were in the classroom and finally realized that like other people don't like math, you know, and that's a real shocker, especially when you've gone through schooling and you have this, you know, this excitement, you want to share it with students.
• 3:55
  Kyle Pearce: And then you go in, and very quickly we recognize that, Oh my gosh, the majority of the students that we have to interact with each day, that, that we've been entrusted to actually educate are not on the same train as us.
• 4:10
  Kyle Pearce: And we could do one of two things.
• 4:13
  Kyle Pearce: We could just do it and say, we put it up on the board we did what we had to do, we checked off the curriculum expectation and moved on, or we could start going down the rabbit hole and try to figure out like, how do we actually do this better?
• 4:27
  Kyle Pearce: And, you know, for both of us, we took that path and I will argue that without making that choice, I don't know how long I would have lasted as a math teacher, because that would have been really tough to do for 30 years straight if we were just trying to do the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.
• 4:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Were you surprised?
• 4:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, were you surprised in the classroom that like, people weren't into math instruction the way you were?
• 4:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, were you like in there being like, Oh fuck yeah, I'm going to spread this, I'm going to like be teaching math and you're factoring quadratics and you're like, why does everyone hate this?
• 5:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, was,
• 5:02
  Jon Orr: I don't think so.
• 5:03
  Jon Orr: I don't, I don't remember.
• 5:04
  Jon Orr: Like, I remember that was the gig, the gig is that you're, you're in a math class and you know, like Kyle, like I think when you said you'd like, you were surprised that other kids just didn't like math, like, I don't think I was surprised the kids and like my peers didn't like math.
• 5:17
  Jon Orr: Everyone says it, you know, everyone says like, Oh, you're a math person or, you know, like, Like, you're, you're the math geek, I'm not the math, like, it's, it's, it's just common, common phrasing.
• 5:25
  Kyle Pearce: Maybe I was the only clueless one.
• 5:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kyle, were you surprised?
• 5:29
  Kyle Pearce: I I guess like I knew that there were some people that didn't enjoy it but I don't know if maybe I just thought that somehow they'd like it better from me.
• 5:38
  Kyle Pearce: Like maybe, it was like, people would like me more, or I could do this better.
• 5:43
  Kyle Pearce: And then you go to do it, and then you realize that, wait a second, I haven't brought anything different to the table than what was taught, you know, all these other years to these students.
• 5:53
  Kyle Pearce: And I think that was the part that hurt.
• 5:56
  Jon Orr: I think you go in right, like you go in going like, I know kids hate math and I'm going to make it better.
• 6:01
  Jon Orr: I'm going to do it better and I'm going to like make sure, and then it hurts when you're you know you're trying different strategies in there and it's like all of a sudden that strategy you thought was going to be like, that's going to be the one that turns that kid into a math believer, and it doesn't, and you're like, Oh man, what's going on here?
• 6:17
  Jon Orr: And that kind of like takes you a step back going like, Oh, I feel deflated now because I put so much effort and thinking and work and emotion into this lesson and it, and it falls flat sometimes.
• 6:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think that's probably so relatable to teachers.
• 6:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: When you say you're like, our mission is to like, help, you know, a million students become math believers, as you put it, what's your like thing?
• 6:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, how do you do that?
• 6:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are you like, ooh, it's like open middle problems, it's, you know, low floor, high ceiling, it's like some whiteboard.
• 6:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, do you have a thing?
• 6:49
  Jon Orr: I think, those are all like structures.
• 6:51
  Jon Orr: Those are all resources.
• 6:52
  Jon Orr: Like those, like, we've got all of that that we grab.
• 6:55
  Jon Orr: And I think where we're like, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the open middle problem.
• 6:59
  Jon Orr: I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna do a three act math problem.
• 7:01
  Jon Orr: Like, I'm gonna like put all these things that I've been searching on the internet for, for years.
• 7:06
  Jon Orr: And I've got this, database of, things that I think work, but what we like, to do when we Kyle and I, this is actually how Kyle and I kind of partnered up together is, is that we were looking at what is going on in our lessons that makes this one engaging, but that one fall flat?
• 7:22
  Jon Orr: Like what is going on here?
• 7:24
  Jon Orr: And then we ended up doing a presentation at O.
• 7:26
  Jon Orr: A.
• 7:26
  Jon Orr: M.
• 7:27
  Jon Orr: E.
• 7:27
  Jon Orr: You know, years and years and years ago, 10 years ago together on on that.
• 7:30
  Jon Orr: And it was, we realized that there are elements all of these things have in common.
• 7:35
  Jon Orr: You know, if you're doing an open middle problem, what is going on in that that engages the students more than your typical lesson?
• 7:40
  Jon Orr: Or like when you're doing a three act math problem, like, why is that, or how do you structure it so it's the same as the open middle problem?
• 7:46
  Jon Orr: So what we realized, and this is not like rocket science here, but what we realized is that, you know, when you're in teachers college, they're saying you got to have a hook.
• 7:55
  Jon Orr: And really what you're saying is like, I have to draw my students curiosity in somewhere, and I have to create that curious moment.
• 8:02
  Jon Orr: And when you have an open middle problem like that, there is curious moments at the beginning.
• 8:06
  Jon Orr: You've, got this task to do, and then all of a sudden this middle, it makes it very curious.
• 8:09
  Jon Orr: What happens if I change this number?
• 8:10
  Jon Orr: What happened when I changed this number?
• 8:11
  Jon Orr: Like you're creating that.
• 8:12
  Jon Orr: You give those students that opportunity to kind of step into a lesson and start asking questions that they weren't going to ask before when you just like, Hey, I'm just going to teach you how to solve two step equations.
• 8:22
  Jon Orr: No one's wanting to know that answer.
• 8:24
  Jon Orr: But if you create that curiosity moment, you know, to begin your lesson to go, Hey, I'm going to create an environment and an experience where you have to, you have to kind of step in with curiosity, then that allows us to go into in depth and kind of fuel sensemaking.
• 8:41
  Jon Orr: Because for years, Kyle and I started with curiosity and go, how do I create these curious moments?
• 8:46
  Jon Orr: But then it was like, as soon as I got them hooked, it's like, ha ha, I'm going to switch the gears.
• 8:50
  Jon Orr: And now I'm just going to show you how to solve two step equations and not actually get thinking out of this.
• 8:55
  Jon Orr: So it was like, well, now we need to fuel sensemaking once we have that part.
• 8:58
  Jon Orr: And that's actually where our lessons, you know, really came together.
• 9:01
  Jon Orr: It was like, we got their curiosity.
• 9:03
  Jon Orr: We were engaging them, but now we're really focused on the mathematics, the conceptual understanding of mathematics.
• 9:08
  Jon Orr: Part of the engaging part of a lesson is getting that curiosity, but it's actually more engaging to get your students thinking on a regular level instead of just giving them everything.
• 9:16
  Jon Orr: So it's like, how do you structure that part?
• 9:17
  Jon Orr: So when we started structuring our lessons that way, that's where we started to see the change.
• 9:21
  Jon Orr: And that's kind of like morphed into how we try to make sure we craft our lessons, craft the resources that we make, talk about how to engage, help teachers teach that way, because most teachers, they're not sure how to do those things and are scared to do those things, or don't feel equipped to do those things, or don't have the background knowledge to do those things.
• 9:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kyle, so one thing, um, Jon said that I loved, I love that you said you talked about creating mathematical experiences for students.
• 9:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like this idea of, because when I think of an experience, I don't think about a question, I don't think about a lesson, I actually think about a holistic view of like what their entire experience is, like both emotionally, like mentally, physically in the classroom.
• 10:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: You, one of the cool things about interviewing you guys, like because I haven't interviewed like another podcaster, is that you've had like everyone on your podcast, so you've heard about every single like new framework, and new idea and whatever.
• 10:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: What to you is like your most favorite like framework or resource or like perspective that's come out of your interviews with guests that you think kind of fuels this idea of creating a positive mathematical experience that's rife with curiosity.
• 10:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you have anything?
• 10:32
  Kyle Pearce: What I would say is, you know, kind of goes back to what Jon was saying is like, what are those elements?
• 10:37
  Kyle Pearce: And I would argue that we in education and we, we are guilty of it, like Jon and I were there, we did this for many years.
• 10:44
  Kyle Pearce: Where it's like you find a resource, or an idea, and then you kind of like, you know, you had mentioned open middle, uh, Jon, you mentioned three act math tasks, like Jon and I kind of went down the three act math task rabbit hole for a really long time.
• 10:58
  Kyle Pearce: And I'll be honest, was like great at the start, but then it was like the rest of the lesson was still flat.
• 11:04
  Kyle Pearce: It was a great curiosity sparker, but then it was like, we didn't have the tools to do it well.
• 11:10
  Kyle Pearce: And I'm going to argue that any other structure or, or any other resource can lead to the same result, if there isn't more there for us to dig into.
• 11:21
  Kyle Pearce: So what I mean by that is let's say, uh, you know, an open middle problem.
• 11:24
  Kyle Pearce: If you just sort of go, here's the problem, go do it.
• 11:27
  Kyle Pearce: And then the kids do it and then that's it.
• 11:29
  Kyle Pearce: And you move on.
• 11:30
  Kyle Pearce: It's going to lose its luster, And really what it comes down to for us was like, how do we question students so that they're doing more of the thinking, talk about Peter and, you know, building, thinking classrooms and all of that work, how do we do that?
• 11:44
  Kyle Pearce: And then how do we bring it back together, and tie it up with a bow?
• 11:48
  Kyle Pearce: Like how do we consolidate it in a way that students are going to walk out of this classroom and not just think I solved a problem about blank, but actually get a better understanding of the mathematics and the behaviors of the mathematics.
• 12:04
  Kyle Pearce: And that's something that I think is really easy for us to miss.
• 12:07
  Kyle Pearce: And here's the sad reality.
• 12:09
  Kyle Pearce: You can have a fully engaged group of students working on a really amazing task, and they could walk away and the vast majority of the students may not actually understand what it was that they learned or be able to apply it to a different scenario that is similar, that follows the same big idea.
• 12:29
  Kyle Pearce: And that to me is the part that I think we struggle with the most in mathematics education.
• 12:34
  Kyle Pearce: And that's what sort of captivated Jon and I around this work is like going down deeper and going, okay, how do we ask students to get them to lean in?
• 12:44
  Kyle Pearce: How do we give them good problems, but then how do we be intentional about it so it's not just like entertainment, you know, like we're not in there just entertaining kids or giving them something to keep them busy, but rather that there's a very intentional goal, that at the beginning you were like, I knew this was going to happen, there's always surprises too, but you're like, I did it this way so that you hit this part in the journey and now, I'm going to step in and I'm going to do something very specific based on what you've done so far, and I'm going to use all of your thinking and I'm going to help you to make sense of the behaviors of mathematics.
• 13:22
  Kyle Pearce: That's like a Kathy Fosno line, she talks about the behaviors of the mathematics.
• 13:27
  Kyle Pearce: And only when you understand those behaviors, can you actually start thinking mathematically.
• 13:33
  Kyle Pearce: And only when you feel confident to think mathematically, can you truly feel a productive disposition towards the mathematics.
• 13:41
  Kyle Pearce: Cause that's when you start to trust the mathematics and you trust that you have the tools in place to help you work your way out of any issue or any situation that you might find yourself in.
• 13:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, look, I'm going to be honest here.
• 13:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everything you said sounded amazing.
• 13:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: It sounded so good.
• 14:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm listening to it, I'm like, yes, you're bringing trust into it, which I can't wait to talk about.
• 14:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: But honestly, at the end of it all, I still, I'm like, I don't know what you mean and I bring this up because I actually think something you guys are really, really good at is, uh, creating ways for teachers to take these philosophies and actualize them in, in their classrooms.
• 14:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you're talking about that, but I need an example because I'm listening to this and I'm like, I still, like, I still don't know what you mean.
• 14:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I started with an open middle problem.
• 14:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was all good.
• 14:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: People were curious.
• 14:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you keep being like but that's not enough and we have to like, get the, but what, what is everything you just said mean?
• 14:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can I have like an actual example?
• 14:44
  Kyle Pearce: Absolutely.
• 14:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Was that mean?
• 14:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just, like, it sounds like these really good words but I don't know how it like actually works.
• 14:50
  Jon Orr: I'll, before Kyle gives you the example, because he's got a good example, But, Kyle and I actually for the last couple of years have, you know, worked with school districts on a regular basis.
• 14:59
  Jon Orr: So that's also what we do during the day.
• 15:01
  Jon Orr: Is in help them shape the structure of the math PD that they're giving their teachers.
• 15:06
  Jon Orr: And what we're finding, you know, what we're finding is that is, and we used to, we used to travel, you know, across North America and go in and do a, you know, a one hour session or a full day workshop or, those types of things.
• 15:17
  Jon Orr: But we would leave and, you know, there's remnants of what you did, but there's no like real lasting change.
• 15:22
  Jon Orr: And, and the work that we've been doing, we've actually uncovered, I, I think it's not, it's not like we uncovered it, but I think it's kind of like, it just needs to be pointed out that so many of the, the routines, you know, those things that we just said, an open middle problem, you know, Dan's three act tasks or, or any of the other structures that we, you know, we, we've mentioned
• 15:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I like that you're calling them structures.
• 15:44
  Jon Orr: Yeah, because they are, they're like framework structures, you know, routines that we're doing in our classroom.
• 15:48
  Jon Orr: It's like every, every one of those.
• 15:50
  Jon Orr: So if you think of Peter, uh, Liljedahl's, you know, Building Thinking Classrooms, his 14 practices.
• 15:54
  Jon Orr: Like we're asking teachers, like all of these ask teachers to step away from the, the, you know, the tested I've done this for years.
• 16:03
  Jon Orr: I'm just going to lecture.
• 16:04
  Jon Orr: I'm going to give you the content.
• 16:05
  Jon Orr: And then I'm going to ask you to practice the content.
• 16:07
  Jon Orr: Why, why teachers have relied on that so much, especially, especially middle school and lower teachers is because they're, they're not confident with the, the mathematics.
• 16:19
  Jon Orr: They don't, they're not sure why things work or how to represent them differently than the standard algorithms that, that we, we've been, you know, we've learned.
• 16:28
  Jon Orr: So what we're asking teachers to do and why there's pushback on different strategies is, is that we're, all of these school districts have been asked teachers to go like, I want you to teach like Peter's classroom.
• 16:38
  Jon Orr: I want you to do this, this open middle problem.
• 16:40
  Jon Orr: I want to do this, but you're asking teachers to go like, wait a minute.
• 16:43
  Jon Orr: I, I only have been doing the lecture because I'm not sure how all this works.
• 16:48
  Jon Orr: And if a kid asked me stuff, or I'm not sure exactly how to phrase it differently or, or even model it differently because I just have this script that I've been following for years.
• 16:57
  Jon Orr: And that's just what I was taught when I was a kid.
• 16:59
  Jon Orr: And instead of going like, we want you to stop that.
• 17:02
  Jon Orr: We want you to actually like give kids the freedom to solve problems, and you now have to not only allow that in classroom management in the classroom to do those things, but you also have to be ready and knowledgeable enough to interact with the way a student does solve a problem that's different than the way you know how to solve the problem.
• 17:22
  Jon Orr: What happens if they solve it this way?
• 17:23
  Jon Orr: How do I know that that's wrong?
• 17:25
  Jon Orr: Now it's scary for teachers to do that.
• 17:27
  Jon Orr: So what we're saying is like, when we've been partnering with school districts, most are asking teachers to change instruction to this, but not equipping them with the background knowledge on understanding how to solve problems differently, what models or strategies that those teachers can use that help create fluency different than just showing standard algorithms, and then building that conceptual understanding so kids can move towards procedural fluency, which is like, I can do this, you know, with, with my eyes closed, but real fluency, like I can do this with my eyes closed this way, but I could pivot over here and model it and show you this way.
• 18:01
  Jon Orr: Like that's real fluency, like being able to like switch in between different, uh, representations of the mathematics.
• 18:09
  Jon Orr: So that's like a long winded way of kind of, I think, saying what Kyle is saying, but Kyle, why don't you give the example.
• 18:15
  Kyle Pearce: Well, here, here's, I'm going to share at least one of the biggest challenges that we have in order to do this well.
• 18:21
  Kyle Pearce: And it's really does come down to conceptual understanding.
• 18:24
  Kyle Pearce: So Jon talks about this fluency and flexibility, which is, which is a part of the conceptual understanding.
• 18:31
  Kyle Pearce: And the reality is, is that most of us, and Jon, you said middle and, and lower, I'm going to argue that like, all of us, like K through 12, and beyond in many cases, actually don't necessarily, like there
• 18:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, 100%.
• 18:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm a high school math teacher and I have no, like seriously, I, no one ever told me why flipping and multiplying is what you do with division.
• 18:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Deborah Peart taught it to me two months ago and I was like, like, I, I didn't even know and I didn't need to know and I've never even questioned it.
• 19:01
  Kyle Pearce: Yeah, totally.
• 19:02
  Kyle Pearce: And, and this is the thing and it's the kids who trust blindly.
• 19:07
  Kyle Pearce: I was that kid.
• 19:08
  Kyle Pearce: Jon that kid.
• 19:09
  Kyle Pearce: It sounds like maybe you were that kid, right?
• 19:12
  Kyle Pearce: The kids who trust blindly, and are able to memorize steps and procedures, traditionally have been what we call the math people.
• 19:20
  Kyle Pearce: And people say, there's no such thing as math people.
• 19:22
  Kyle Pearce: I'm like, heck yes, there is, in that world where math is only memorization.
• 19:28
  Kyle Pearce: Of course, there's math people because not everyone's going to be able to memorize something blindly right?
• 19:33
  Kyle Pearce: That's the reality of the situation.
• 19:35
  Kyle Pearce: I believe if we do it actually holistically, like you're saying, but then also looking at all five proficiencies of mathematics, we can all be amazing mathematicians.
• 19:45
  Kyle Pearce: But the difference is, is that you can't just turn that on.
• 19:48
  Kyle Pearce: It's not like all of our teachers in the past have been like, you know, we don't want to pull out the whole conceptual understanding thing because like it might, be, you know, it might like let everyone understand it, you know, like it's like, no, we just don't know it.
• 20:02
  Kyle Pearce: The example that's so easy.
• 20:04
  Kyle Pearce: You talked about why flipping and, and multiplying for dividing fractions, why we've never known it.
• 20:10
  Kyle Pearce: Well, I'm going to go even earlier and say, I never knew that there was two types of division.
• 20:15
  Kyle Pearce: Right?
• 20:15
  Kyle Pearce: Like dividing two whole numbers, you are always dividing with one of two structures.
• 20:22
  Kyle Pearce: Use that word again, structures of division and what you might be like, what the heck are you talking
• 20:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, my face is saying, what the heck are you talking
• 20:30
  Kyle Pearce: Exactly, this
• 20:31
  Jon Orr: Wait, don't I just divide two numbers and boom, there's an answer?
• 20:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, what are you talking about?
• 20:37
  Kyle Pearce: Absolutely.
• 20:38
  Kyle Pearce: Absolutely.
• 20:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like 10 divided by five.
• 20:40
  Kyle Pearce: Yeah.
• 20:41
  Kyle Pearce: So now let's think about with context, right?
• 20:43
  Kyle Pearce: With numbers.
• 20:44
  Kyle Pearce: Here's the crazy part.
• 20:45
  Kyle Pearce: If you use naked problems like 10 divided by five, what you'll tend to do, tend, not ten to do, tend to is you're going to use you're going to naturally do the division structure that fits the numbers easiest, without even knowing it, right?
• 21:04
  Kyle Pearce: So in certain cases, like you'll be like, okay, let's do, let's, let's pick an easy one.
• 21:08
  Kyle Pearce: Uh, let's go 10 divided by two.
• 21:11
  Kyle Pearce: How, like, you know, the answer, I know, you know, the answer, but you had to actually like explain how you're going to divide that, tell me how you're going to do it.
• 21:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, this is so interesting because I was just teaching a grade 8 kid the other day and realized he didn't know what division was because when I said 10 divided by 2, he did this.
• 21:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, sorry.
• 21:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm, I'm, I'm making a splitting motion with my hand and he was like 5.
• 21:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then when I was like Okay, what's 20 divided by 2, if I said 2 he could split it, if I said any other number he didn't know what to do.
• 21:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: What I'm doing, when you say 10 divided by, I don't know what I'm doing, 10 divided by 2, I mean I just I know it's 5, but I think I'm thinking like 2 groups of 5, I think.
• 21:49
  Kyle Pearce: Interesting.
• 21:50
  Kyle Pearce: So two groups of five.
• 21:51
  Kyle Pearce: So now let's think about this.
• 21:52
  Kyle Pearce: When that student went like this, that student actually really understands one of the two types of division.
• 21:58
  Kyle Pearce: That's partitive division.
• 22:00
  Kyle Pearce: You put
• 22:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: What the fuck, I've never heard this.
• 22:03
  Kyle Pearce: Yeah, I know.
• 22:04
  Kyle Pearce: This is the crazy part.
• 22:05
  Kyle Pearce: Neither have I.
• 22:06
  Kyle Pearce: I mean, now I do, but I just said it, but I went and I got a math degree and I never recognized the fact that sometimes ten divided by two means make two groups and other times it's like make groups of two and count how many groups there are.
• 22:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?
• 22:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Pause.
• 22:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Pause.
• 22:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: When it mean that?
• 22:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?
• 22:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ten divided by two is making five groups of two.
• 22:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I know that works, but like, why would you think of it that way?
• 22:34
  Kyle Pearce: So now let's think about this.
• 22:36
  Kyle Pearce: Now let's layer in context.
• 22:37
  Kyle Pearce: I got 10 apples and I have two people, right?
• 22:42
  Kyle Pearce: What are we going to do if there's 10 apples and there's two people, even very young children know what this is.
• 22:49
  Kyle Pearce: They're like, you don't have to say it's division.
• 22:50
  Kyle Pearce: You say there's 10 apples and I want you to give them fairly to all the people.
• 22:55
  Kyle Pearce: And they go, Oh, one for you, one for you.
• 22:57
  Kyle Pearce: That's called
• 22:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, what's that called?
• 23:00
  Jon Orr: Fair sharing
• 23:01
  Kyle Pearce: Yeah.
• 23:01
  Kyle Pearce: Fair sharing.
• 23:02
  Kyle Pearce: It's like here, one for you, one for you, one for you, one for, Oh, each person ends up with five each, but that, what that is is that's one type.
• 23:10
  Kyle Pearce: Because the other option is you could say, Hey, I got 10 apples and I want everybody to get two apples each.
• 23:20
  Kyle Pearce: Hmm.
• 23:21
  Kyle Pearce: Now it's different.
• 23:21
  Kyle Pearce: I can't fair share that, or at least share in the same way.
• 23:25
  Kyle Pearce: I could, I could go like two for you, two for you, and then I just keep going until I run out of apples.
• 23:32
  Kyle Pearce: Before I was going, okay, one for you, one for you, one for you, till I ran out of apples.
• 23:37
  Kyle Pearce: Which might seem like it's the same thing, it's actually very different.
• 23:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is the most math we've ever done on this podcast.
• 23:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, this so crazy for me and our listeners.
• 23:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, okay, Kyle's been talking for this entire time, so now it's Jon's turn to speak, because we can't tell your voices apart.
• 23:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you think, this is a podcast about math trauma.
• 23:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: and math therapy.
• 23:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you think all of this stuff, I mean, this is actually really blowing my mind, but all, one thing that really stuck with me is you said, because you know, teachers are so strapped for time.
• 24:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the biggest conversation right now is like, I love it, but I don't have time.
• 24:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love it but I don't have time.
• 24:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: How does the way we currently teach math versus this idea of true understanding, how do you think that actually affects kids when it comes to the development or triggering of math trauma?
• 24:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, is this something you've thought about?
• 24:23
  Jon Orr: This is, I think why so many students develop that math trauma, is because they're not being brought through this process of going like, I'm put in a position to want to know the answer to this.
• 24:37
  Jon Orr: And then I also want to be put into a position where it makes sense to me.
• 24:42
  Jon Orr: And I think, I think that's where the trauma ends up coming from.
• 24:45
  Jon Orr: We end up saying like, you just should know it because the teacher also doesn't know it.
• 24:51
  Jon Orr: They're not saying like, like, well, why do I flip and multiply or why, you know, in this particular thing.
• 24:55
  Jon Orr: And the teacher's like, that's just the way you do it.
• 24:58
  Jon Orr: But then that creates like a lot of conflict in us to go like, but I want to know the answer.
• 25:03
  Jon Orr: And then all of a sudden there's like an animosity towards the teacher, there's animosity towards mathematics itself.
• 25:09
  Jon Orr: Going like this, but there's no good answer, now it doesn't make sense to me, math doesn't make sense to me, math is not for me, I hate mathematics.
• 25:18
  Jon Orr: And it's because, if we don't have good answers to these wonders, these questions, this connection towards why this makes sense, like as long as you can make it sense for a student, this is why it's like, it made sense to you because you were like, I can follow that pattern, right?
• 25:35
  Jon Orr: For you, it was probably like, cause that was true for me becoming like, um, you know, a math teacher is like the teacher might say, do it this way, and I would say, Hey, look, if I do it that way every time, it works, that makes sense to me, because I'm not really like seeking, I wasn't back then, seeking like the real understanding answer.
• 25:56
  Jon Orr: And it was only until I met students who were like, but why?
• 25:59
  Jon Orr: Like I need to understand the why.
• 26:00
  Jon Orr: And talk to adults who have that like animosity towards mathematics also were like, I always wanted to know why, but no one could explain it to me.
• 26:07
  Jon Orr: And then it hurts, it hurts.
• 26:09
  Jon Orr: So I create this, like this barrier that I can never get over, and then that's, that turns into that trauma.
• 26:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, I'm finding with a lot of my conversations with people, and I ask this personally, because I'm writing a book right now on math therapy, and I know this is going to happen to me too, where people, like, will read a framework or a structure, like, you talk about it, and you're like, yeah, like, it's really great, but it doesn't work unless you do this, or, like, this thing, but, like, first you got real, What responsibility do you think the person has who's creating this structure to, like, talk about every single thing that needs to be in place for their structure to work.
• 26:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm finding it, like, actually really hard to navigate this space where, like, everyone needs to be responsible for everything.
• 26:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And, like, I guess this is just a personal thing for me because I'm like, I know people are going to read Math Therapy and they're going to be like, Okay, great, but, like, she's not talking about conceptually understanding a problem, so it's not going to, like, I don't know, I'm feeling, I need some advice.
• 27:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, how,
• 27:04
  Jon Orr: Yeah, I think there's like, there's, there's like, what do you call it?
• 27:06
  Jon Orr: Like, uh, like buckets, there's buckets that we all need to understand.
• 27:10
  Jon Orr: And you know, you're talking about one bucket doesn't necessarily mean that your job is to teach all the other buckets that fits with your bucket.
• 27:18
  Jon Orr: But as a, as a profession, you know, if we are wanting to see our change in our craft, if we are dedicated to changing instruction for students so that we can meet their needs and put away this math trauma forever, you know, for every student, I need to, as a professional, decide on what buckets I need to fill for myself.
• 27:40
  Jon Orr: So it's like, I, I need to be like, there's the conceptual understanding bucket or, or understanding math or my roots.
• 27:46
  Jon Orr: We, you know, Kyle and I, when we work with school districts across North America, you know, we, we help them craft a plan to meet six different areas of, of math professional development in their, in their district.
• 27:58
  Jon Orr: So one of those is the roots, which is what Kyle gave that full example on.
• 28:02
  Jon Orr: It's like really understanding the mathematics.
• 28:04
  Jon Orr: We really need to fill that bucket for the teacher so that they're in a position to work on the other bucket, which is our pedagogy, our moves in our classroom.
• 28:12
  Jon Orr: You're filling the bucket of like mindset and thinking about how to think about mathematics and beliefs around mathematics.
• 28:20
  Jon Orr: So, you know, your filling that bucket with your book doesn't mean you have to go and go, Hey, I also need to fill this bucket, but the, these, these kinds of areas exist and they're all intertwined.
• 28:31
  Jon Orr: And I guess Kyle's got up on the screen right now is like, we call these like the pieces of our tree.
• 28:35
  Jon Orr: We're growing our mathematical tree.
• 28:38
  Jon Orr: And the roots of the tree are like the way we understand mathematics at a conceptual level, and then you're talking about the math, you know, mindsets, beliefs, our connection towards mathematics, we call it the soil, the water, the sunlight, which helped the roots grow.
• 28:53
  Jon Orr: There are other areas, you know, there are other areas of the tree as well that can see on the screen, but there's so many, so many different, you know, areas that we all can work on like, as a teacher, we should work on these areas and it doesn't mean that, you know, you just have to work on one or, or fill them all.
• 29:10
  Jon Orr: Does that make sense?
• 29:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it makes so much sense and I'm so glad you said it because it's way better than the way I've been saying it.
• 29:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I just find people are really at each other's throats being like, this person's about this thing, but it's not as important as this thing.
• 29:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like, I keep being like, no, you need all of this stuff.
• 29:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's the whole point.
• 29:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I really like, almost the way you're saying it, of being like, this is about us in our profession, being able to be self reflective and be like, look, here are the things I know I'm really good at right now, here are the things I'm lacking, and seeking out that professional development, those resources, like help where you need it.
• 29:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like being like, look, I really need to go to a therapist for these specific issues.
• 29:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I don't need to talk about these, you know?
• 29:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, yeah, I love this.
• 29:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really love it.
• 29:49
  Kyle Pearce: Our biggest, like, you know, what we try to advocate to those educators and in particular, the district leaders that we work with through our district improvement program is that you want to focus on everything, but you really do have to decide, like, where are you going to start?
• 30:04
  Kyle Pearce: So maybe someone might be focusing on the beliefs and mindset as a start, but where I think we run into problems is as if we look at one thing as it is going to fix all.
• 30:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 30:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 30:16
  Kyle Pearce: And that's really the key.
• 30:17
  Kyle Pearce: So for us, it's about awareness.
• 30:19
  Kyle Pearce: It's not, you know, we don't want people to be overwhelmed.
• 30:22
  Kyle Pearce: That's why we use this, you know, nice tree analogy.
• 30:25
  Kyle Pearce: So it's easy enough to like, remember.
• 30:27
  Kyle Pearce: But it's like, hey, like Jon and I, we admit wholeheartedly that for many, many years, we focused primarily on the actual leaves of our tree and maybe a little bit about the branches, right?
• 30:41
  Kyle Pearce: So the leaves being the resources, right?
• 30:44
  Kyle Pearce: Like we were focused on that and how we delivered it, which was, for us, it was engaging, three act math tasks, that sort of, but we didn't know about these other pieces.
• 30:54
  Kyle Pearce: And in particular, the roots, which we like the idea of the roots is that they're hidden.
• 31:00
  Kyle Pearce: They're underground, but they're really, really important.
• 31:03
  Kyle Pearce: So that division we just talked about, it's always been there, but it's been hidden in the background.
• 31:08
  Kyle Pearce: And I'm telling you right now, you could spend the next 10 years in a district, in a school, in your own classroom, focusing only on mindset and beliefs.
• 31:17
  Kyle Pearce: But if we forget why we're feeding the tree, the water, the sun, the soil, the soil, that's to help develop the root structure.
• 31:26
  Kyle Pearce: It's to help develop the limbs.
• 31:28
  Kyle Pearce: It's to, you know, it's to do all of these other things.
• 31:31
  Kyle Pearce: And I think if we, if we look at it that way, you use the word holistic, I love it, because like, we have to look at math improvement in the same way.
• 31:39
  Kyle Pearce: It's not that one thing or one structure or one idea or one area is going to fix it.
• 31:45
  Kyle Pearce: I'll argue that, you know, our branches were really strong, like we had really good pedagogical moves, but ultimately, the rest of the tree was like suffering, right?
• 31:55
  Kyle Pearce: Like our, our root system was weak, you know, the, the trunk wasn't developing.
• 31:59
  Kyle Pearce: The, the limbs of the tree weren't developing.
• 32:01
  Kyle Pearce: It was like, we were doing that one thing really well, and a lot of people actually said like, these guys are really good math teachers at the time, and our scores weren't getting better.
• 32:12
  Kyle Pearce: Like it was like, kids enjoyed
• 32:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, you're going to bring up test scores at the end of the fucking podcast?
• 32:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: No.
• 32:18
  Jon Orr: He didn't say it.
• 32:19
  Jon Orr: He didn't say it.
• 32:19
  Jon Orr: He didn't say it.
• 32:20
  Jon Orr: Don't worry.
• 32:20
  Kyle Pearce: No, I didn't.
• 32:20
  Kyle Pearce: I didn't say it at all.
• 32:21
  Kyle Pearce: But you know what I would say, though?
• 32:23
  Kyle Pearce: Here's what I will say.
• 32:24
  Kyle Pearce: And we don't have to go deeper into it.
• 32:26
  Kyle Pearce: But ultimately, the whole test score thing in the long run, if we develop all six areas, those will change.
• 32:35
  Kyle Pearce: I don't care what questions are on the test because kids are going to better understand the math, they're going to be confident enough to do it, and they're going to be fine.
• 32:42
  Kyle Pearce: But the problem is, is we focus on, you know, we always talk to our district partners, we're like, how are we going to measure the change we're making?
• 32:49
  Kyle Pearce: And they go test scores.
• 32:50
  Kyle Pearce: We're like, well, the problem is, is that test scores aren't going to change this year.
• 32:54
  Kyle Pearce: So how are we going to measure what we're changing now to see if what we're doing now is actually helping us move the needle.
• 33:03
  Kyle Pearce: It's not going to move the test needle this year.
• 33:05
  Kyle Pearce: And I'm going to guess that until you fix all six areas of that tree, we're not going to see the actual test scores change, unless you just get lucky and you got that one group of students that was going to do pretty well on that test anyway, like it has nothing to do with these things that we're doing on a daily basis in the district, in the schools, in the classroom, that's a much, much longer road for us to actually change the scores.
• 33:32
  Kyle Pearce: We've got to change the details here to monitor.
• 33:35
  Kyle Pearce: If you look at the tree, you're going to go, wow.
• 33:37
  Kyle Pearce: The tree's greener.
• 33:38
  Kyle Pearce: Wow.
• 33:38
  Kyle Pearce: These branches are getting stronger.
• 33:41
  Kyle Pearce: Wow.
• 33:41
  Kyle Pearce: The root system's getting wider.
• 33:42
  Kyle Pearce: Like all of those things are going to be what you'd measure when you see that you're working on those different areas.
• 33:49
  Kyle Pearce: We can't just say, how good is the tree?
• 33:52
  Kyle Pearce: You know, like how healthy is the tree at a general level?
• 33:55
  Kyle Pearce: That's not going to actually do it.
• 33:57
  Kyle Pearce: And the same is true for math.
• 34:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wow.
• 34:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Snap, snap, snap.
• 34:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are on the final two questions of the podcast, my friends.
• 34:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, that was, that was just beautiful.
• 34:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm going to need you to answer these questions in 30 seconds each.
• 34:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay,
• 34:12
  Jon Orr: Let's do it.
• 34:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so the first question, and we'll start with Jon, is what is the one thing you'd like to see change about math education?
• 34:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: One thing.
• 34:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: 30 seconds, go.
• 34:22
  Jon Orr: I would like to see the professional development towards math education change to be more about, you know, that content knowledge, the roots of the tree.
• 34:31
  Jon Orr: Too much of our choices are about the pedagogy and going like, we need this pedagogy to change, change, change the pedagogy, hey, we want all of you to change your pedagogy, but we're not actually preparing you to change that pedagogy by giving you what you need to change that pedagogy, which is really the understanding of the mathematics.
• 34:48
  Jon Orr: We say pedagogy, but we really need to help teachers just grapple with the way they've been doing mathematics just with math problems themselves and not have any real, real obligation at this point to do it with students, you have to do for yourself first and really think about how the strategies and the models you've been using and how you could be doing it this way.
• 35:11
  Jon Orr: Get comfortable first, and then you can start to think about how that, that evolves in the classroom.
• 35:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: You guys cannot talk for 30 seconds.
• 35:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can't do it.
• 35:20
  Jon Orr: I did it.
• 35:21
  Jon Orr: do it, it 30, I timed it.
• 35:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 35:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kyle, your turn.
• 35:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's the one thing you'd like to see change?
• 35:27
  Kyle Pearce: You know what, I would say I would love
• 35:29
  Jon Orr: Won't be able to do it.
• 35:30
  Kyle Pearce: For us, this is hard, stop taking my time! Uh, what I would love is I would love for us to take number sense and operations, and I would love to take them out of the math program for a little while and make it its own little separate subject
• 35:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wow.
• 35:46
  Kyle Pearce: And have the rest of math kind of like be in this other little subject for a little while.
• 35:51
  Kyle Pearce: And just like really make sure, really, really make sure that we help people understand, including educators, understand number sense, fluency and flexibility with numbers and operations, because I think the rest of the job gets so much easier when we do it and do it well, and I'm not talking about just memorizing facts.
• 36:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think that was 30 seconds.
• 36:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: He, that was, that was succinct.
• 36:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final question.
• 36:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you say to someone, Jon, who just is like, this is really great, everything you've talked about, but like, I'm just not a math person.
• 36:22
  Jon Orr: Well, I think we've been, we've been chatting about that, that we
• 36:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're wasting time.
• 36:27
  Jon Orr: We, I am, I am.
• 36:28
  Jon Orr: We do need to see ourselves as math people.
• 36:32
  Jon Orr: And if we're saying we're not a math person, then then we need to think about what does that mean?
• 36:36
  Jon Orr: And why am I saying saying that about myself?
• 36:39
  Jon Orr: Because we have it in ourselves to do what we want to do, if you want to become, you know, a math person, or you want to become better at mathematics or your understanding of math, you can do it.
• 36:50
  Jon Orr: You just have to choose that.
• 36:52
  Jon Orr: Like, like you, you could choose to go on, you know, run a marathon.
• 36:56
  Jon Orr: Everyone could do it.
• 36:57
  Jon Orr: But you just have to choose to dedicate yourself to making that happen.
• 37:01
  Jon Orr: And I think, I think that's the same with mathematics.
• 37:03
  Jon Orr: It's like, I could just say I'm not a math person, but if you're, if you're dedicated to making this change in yourself, you can make it happen.
• 37:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much for that succinct answer.
• 37:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kyle?
• 37:14
  Kyle Pearce: I would love to see us focusing on making the experience one such that people won't have that problem.
• 37:23
  Kyle Pearce: And what I mean by that is that means we in the education community specifically need to understand the mathematics conceptually well enough that we can teach it so that more students can understand it instead of memorizing it.
• 37:38
  Kyle Pearce: And if we do that, I don't think we're going to have to convince anybody of anything, because they're going to trust the math.
• 37:43
  Kyle Pearce: They're going to trust what's going on and they're going to be confident with it.
• 37:47
  Kyle Pearce: You don't have people saying the same thing about literacy and reading, you know, maybe writing, some people may be like I'm not great at writing.
• 37:54
  Kyle Pearce: I'll be fine if people are like, I'm not very good at writing down the math that I'm thinking about.
• 37:57
  Kyle Pearce: You know, but it's like, I want them to be able to understand numbers, operations, how they work, how they behave.
• 38:04
  Kyle Pearce: And if they do, then they're going to be in a much better situation where they go, yeah, like maybe I don't like math so much, like, I don't want to do it for my career, I don't want to, you know, whatever.
• 38:14
  Kyle Pearce: That's fine.
• 38:15
  Kyle Pearce: I'm not a big reader, but I know how to read.
• 38:17
  Kyle Pearce: And I want more people to have that reality.
• 38:21
  Kyle Pearce: And that really begins with us in the education community, to do the work ourselves so that we can help more students see that in themselves.
• 38:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what I've noticed about your response styles, which I love, is Kyle always, Kyle's like me, where like he wants to wrap up his response in something like really clickbaity and powerful at the end.
• 38:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like he wants to make sure he has a good soundbite at the end.
• 38:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's why it takes him a bit of time sometimes I think, cause you're like, I'm like this too.
• 38:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I've really, I've noticed that about you and I appreciate it.
• 38:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause I'm going to have a lot of great soundbites and you both have great soundbites.
• 38:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, I noticed that you are like near the end of your response, you're like, and now how am I going to tie this into like a really good statement?
• 39:07
  Kyle Pearce: I love it.
• 39:08
  Kyle Pearce: I didn't know that about me.
• 39:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, now you know that about yourself.
• 39:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's time to go.
• 39:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: This has been fucking amazing.
• 39:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I loved it.
• 39:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually didn't know what we were gonna talk about.
• 39:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, I just, like,
• 39:16
  Jon Orr: We didn't either.
• 39:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was, it was so much fun.
• 39:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was really fun.
• 39:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this division thing, like, I'm gonna go divide shit now.
• 39:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm, I'm, yeah, thank you.
• 39:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye guys.
• 39:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Good times.
• 39:26
  Jon Orr: Thanks so much.
• 39:26
  Kyle Pearce: Thanks so much for having us, take care.
• 39:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, wow, this episode really reminded me how important it is to inspire kids to understand math rather than just memorize it.
• 39:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's where curiosity is born.
• 39:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's where joy and wonder stems from.
• 39:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what matters most when it comes to students building meaningful relationships with math.
• 39:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok.
• 39:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg.
• 40:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise.
• 40:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use.
• 40:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Those things actually make such a big difference for us.
• 40:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word.
• 40:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Until next time, peace, love, and pi.