Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #445 Sorry Seems to be the Hardest Word

Transcript

#445 Sorry Seems to be the Hardest Word · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, when we apologize, we apologize because we understand and
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  Speaker 2: know our intentions, and we're hoping that others will recognize that.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Hello, it's doctor justin course. I'm here with Kylie, my wife,
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  Speaker 3: mum to our six kids. I'm the founder of Happy
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  Speaker 3: Families dot com, dot you, and the author of a
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  Speaker 3: bunch of books about making your family happier, including ten
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  Speaker 3: Things every parent needs to know.
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  Speaker 4: If you're a parent who is time poor and wants.
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  Speaker 3: Answers, right now, we have an answer for you about
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  Speaker 3: how to get the kids to apologize when they do
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  Speaker 3: the wrong thing, and how to restore relationships at home
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  Speaker 3: when siblings fight with one another. Missus Happy Families. Kylie,
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  Speaker 3: did you, as a child ever have any significant fights
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  Speaker 3: with your two sisters?
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  Speaker 2: What sibling does?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of like that, isn't it.
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  Speaker 2: I really would love to meet someone who can say no, well.
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  Speaker 4: Only children.
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  Speaker 3: Only children have never fought with siblings because they don't
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  Speaker 3: have any. So we came across some research recently, but
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  Speaker 3: I think it's fascinating, really important and worth spending a
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  Speaker 3: few minutes on. This was a study from the University
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  Speaker 3: of North Carolina and it was published in the Journal
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  Speaker 3: of Experimental Psychology looking at kids and apologies, and I
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  Speaker 3: think that it's fascinating this idea that there are some
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  Speaker 3: parents who absolutely insist that the kids need to apologize
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  Speaker 3: to one another when they do the wrong thing, and.
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  Speaker 4: Other parents who take a completely different tack.
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  Speaker 3: When you were being raised by your parents, Kylie, were
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  Speaker 3: you gently encouraged to apologize or were you told to
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  Speaker 3: go to your sister right now and say sorry?
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  Speaker 2: I think we were both standing in front of them, right,
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  Speaker 2: of course, and I was told to apologize immediately, right And.
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  Speaker 3: Did you look at her and say, you know what,
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  Speaker 3: my little sister, I did the wrong thing and my
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  Speaker 3: heartfelt apology.
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  Speaker 4: Will you forgive me?
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  Speaker 2: I think I was looking at my feet at the time,
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  Speaker 2: and with my teeth firmly gritted to them. That's like,
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  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's kind of how it goes.
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  Speaker 3: Forgiveness is obviously an essential part of maintaining an ongoing
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  Speaker 3: and positive relationship, and these researchers, they had a whole
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  Speaker 3: bunch of kids between the age of five and fourteen,
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  Speaker 3: and essentially they looked at how they went with their apologies,
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  Speaker 3: and what they found is that the kids who are
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  Speaker 3: most likely to apologize the ones who have perspective, the
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  Speaker 3: ones who have empathy, the ones who can pause and say,
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  Speaker 3: I can imagine how that must have felt for my
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  Speaker 3: sibling or this other person in this interaction. And because
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  Speaker 3: I've got that capacity to have that perspective, I can
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  Speaker 3: say sorry much more easily.
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  Speaker 2: What I think is really interesting about this is that
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  Speaker 2: there's actually two sides to an apology. There's an opportunity
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  Speaker 2: to recognize where we've done wrong and to do what
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  Speaker 2: we can to restore the relationship. But there's also so
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  Speaker 2: the other side where forgiveness needs to be offered, and
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  Speaker 2: both are really important for us if we want to
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  Speaker 2: have good, strong, healthy relationships.
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  Speaker 1: Ah.
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  Speaker 3: So there's a couple of things that we can really
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  Speaker 3: pick up on from what you've just said, Kylie. First
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  Speaker 3: of all, if we look at the findings of this study,
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  Speaker 3: the research has found that children are more likely to
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  Speaker 3: forgive someone if they've apologized. I think that's really important.
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  Speaker 3: But what's curious to me is other research that highlights
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  Speaker 3: that if a child says sorry and they're not forgiven.
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  Speaker 3: So let's say I do the wrong thing to you,
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  Speaker 3: and I recognize that I've done the wrong thing, so
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  Speaker 3: I say, Kylie, I'm so very sorry, and then you
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  Speaker 3: say to me, I don't forgive you. I'm holding a grudge.
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  Speaker 3: I'm really upset. I do not like what you've done
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  Speaker 3: and I'm not going to let it.
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  Speaker 4: I'm not going to let it fly. I'm really upset.
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  Speaker 3: This study a different one published in the Personality in
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  Speaker 3: Social Psychology Ballson. It's a University of Queensland study. Michael
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  Speaker 3: Taie is the researcher, and he found that when people
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  Speaker 3: do not receive forgiveness after they've apologized, they actually internalized
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  Speaker 3: the belief that they are the victim, not the person
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  Speaker 3: that they did the wrong thing too. So I could
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  Speaker 3: be horrible to you. You're the victim. Then I apologize,
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  Speaker 3: and if you don't forgive me, I actually feel like
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  Speaker 3: I'm now the victim and you deserved what you got
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  Speaker 3: because you're the kind of person that doesn't forgive when
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  Speaker 3: people apologize.
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  Speaker 4: Isn't that fascinating?
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  Speaker 2: That actually is really fascinating, because I think I may
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  Speaker 2: have been in that situation once or twice myself, and
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  Speaker 2: I've never thought about it like that.
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  Speaker 4: What do you mean, Well, there are.
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  Speaker 2: Obviously been times where I've done something wrong and it's
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  Speaker 2: upset somebody and I've apologized and they've just decided to
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  Speaker 2: hold on to it forever and it's just left me
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  Speaker 2: kind of feeling really hard done by. But I think
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  Speaker 2: it also highlights just the different perspective that we take
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  Speaker 2: because when we apologize, we apologize because we understand and
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  Speaker 2: know our intentions and we're hoping that others will recognize that.
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  Speaker 2: So when we're hurt by other people, we just see
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  Speaker 2: their actions and don't have the ability to recognize their
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  Speaker 2: intentions and so judge them for their actions. And that
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  Speaker 2: judgment is a lot harsher because we don't see their heart,
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  Speaker 2: we don't understand their intention.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that goes back to what we were talking
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  Speaker 3: about last week on the podcast, the fundamental attribution error.
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  Speaker 3: The fundamental attribution error basically is I want you to
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  Speaker 3: judge me by my intentions even if my actions are bad,
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  Speaker 3: because you know, I'm trying to be a good person.
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  Speaker 3: Really messes up relationships when people judge you by your actions.
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  Speaker 3: Not your intentions. You feel like you're now the victim,
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  Speaker 3: and that's kind of where you're going. The other thing
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  Speaker 3: that the researchers have found when they're talking about kids
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  Speaker 3: is kids are much more likely to forgive if they
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  Speaker 3: have empathy and perspective for somebody. And they're also much
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  Speaker 3: more likely to forgive if that if they have theory
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  Speaker 3: of mind, which kind of leads into having that empathy
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  Speaker 3: or perspective anyway, which I think is a really important thing.
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  Speaker 3: We've talked about this a lot on the podcast Theory
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  Speaker 3: of Mind. There's an entire webinar that I've done about
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  Speaker 3: theory of mind and little kids and their big feelings
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  Speaker 3: and how hard it is to understand what's going on
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  Speaker 3: for someone else.
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  Speaker 4: This is just not something they do very easily.
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  Speaker 3: So right after the break, let's talk about how to
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  Speaker 3: help the kids to apologize in meaningful ways that encourage
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  Speaker 3: perspective and empathy and actual forgiveness so that relationships can
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  Speaker 3: be restored.
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  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having
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  Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts
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  Speaker 5: of disciplined as a webinar to help parents set limits
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  Speaker 5: with love, compassion and humanity. Find it now at happyfamilies
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  Speaker 5: dot com dot au slash shop.
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  Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now and everybody is
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  Speaker 2: wanting to know how to help their children apologize.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you can get them to say I'm sorry, in
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  Speaker 3: which case they'll spit it across the room with their
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  Speaker 3: eyes glaring at their sibling. But I think that there
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  Speaker 3: are better things that we can do, Kylie. And it's
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  Speaker 3: actually not rocket surgery. It's doable.
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  Speaker 2: Well. The research paper actually talked about two things parents
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  Speaker 2: can do to help children restore real life relationships, and
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  Speaker 2: the first one was just this acknowledgment that children are
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  Speaker 2: really capable of discerning between an insincere or a sincere apology,
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  Speaker 2: and that for an apology to be acceptable, there needs
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  Speaker 2: to be an acknowledgment of why they're apologizing. And this
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  Speaker 2: is something that you and I have talked about on
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  Speaker 2: the podcast before. So can you talk us through what
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  Speaker 2: would be the appropriate steps or foundations for a sincere apology?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And this segues or dovetails so neatly with the
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  Speaker 3: second area that the research is highlighted, which was helping
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  Speaker 3: kids to understand perspective empathy, which means that they need
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  Speaker 3: to have at least the capacity to sit with you.
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  Speaker 4: So a couple of things.
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  Speaker 3: Number one, it's very very unusual to be able to
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  Speaker 3: get an apology to be meaningful when emotions are hot,
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  Speaker 3: when everyone's in the heat of the moment, when everybody's
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  Speaker 3: angry at their sibling and they say she's a bad
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  Speaker 3: sport or he took my homework or whatever it is,
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  Speaker 3: it's very very unusual that kids are going to say, actually, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I've done the wrong thing. You're right, I'm so sorry,
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  Speaker 3: Please forgive me. That just doesn't happen. So the first
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  Speaker 3: thing is have the conversation and emotions are cool. Everyone's
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  Speaker 3: taken a step back, had a bit of a breather.
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  Speaker 3: We can sit down with our kids and say, hey,
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  Speaker 3: you know what happened about five ten minutes ago, how
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  Speaker 3: did that make you feel? And how did that make
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  Speaker 3: your brother feel or how did that make your dad
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  Speaker 3: feel or your grandma or whoever the offended party is.
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  Speaker 3: And what we're doing there is we're creating some psychological distance.
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  Speaker 3: Emotions are nice and cool. But what we're doing straight
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  Speaker 3: away is stepping into perspective. We're stepping into this thing
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  Speaker 3: that theory of mind aids, the ability to see how
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  Speaker 3: somebody else has been affected by what we did. It's
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  Speaker 3: creating empathy. And once we've had that conversation, how do
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  Speaker 3: you think that mum felt or how do you think
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  Speaker 3: that dad felt? Or how do you think that your
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  Speaker 3: siblings felt when that happened? Sometimes kids kind of you
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  Speaker 3: know what it's like, Kylie, You've watched all of our
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  Speaker 3: kids do this. We asked them a question like that,
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  Speaker 3: and they go mm m and they shrug their shoulders
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  Speaker 3: and they pout and they stare at the floor and
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  Speaker 3: they don't want to.
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  Speaker 4: Have the conversation.
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  Speaker 3: And then what that really means is that having the
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  Speaker 3: conversation prematurely, they're still too upset. There's still too much
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  Speaker 3: going on for them to be able to deal with
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  Speaker 3: it effectively. They're simply too emotional. But you will get
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  Speaker 3: to a point where they'll start to talk about things.
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  Speaker 3: So leave the room, come back in five minutes and say, hey,
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  Speaker 3: let's try again. We didn't do so well last time.
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  Speaker 3: How did they feel, how'd you feel? How did I feel?
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  Speaker 3: And you want to get a three sixty perspective, not
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  Speaker 3: just the victim, but everyone, because when there is that
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  Speaker 3: kind of conflict, everyone is, to one degree or another,
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  Speaker 3: a victim of some kind. The family has been fractured
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  Speaker 3: because of the conflict, and we try to restore all
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  Speaker 3: these relationships. And this is where it gets really interesting.
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  Speaker 3: This is kind of like the explore explain in power,
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  Speaker 3: the three e's that I talk about all the time.
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  Speaker 4: We're exploring how.
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  Speaker 3: Did you feel? How did everyone else feel? Then we
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  Speaker 3: do a quick explanation. You know, when this happens, our
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  Speaker 3: family really feels kind of horrible, doesn't it, And then
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  Speaker 3: we empower what do you think would be the best
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  Speaker 3: thing to do from here? The great thing about asking
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  Speaker 3: that question is that the kids typically don't feel overly cornered,
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  Speaker 3: but they're usually fairly willing to say, Okay, I need
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  Speaker 3: to apologize, I need to make it right, I need
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  Speaker 3: to fix things up. And then Kylie, we just step
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  Speaker 3: into what a really great apology is.
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  Speaker 2: So in our house we usually use your four step
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  Speaker 2: approach to an apology. Would you like to talk us
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  Speaker 2: through that?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: Okay, really simple four steps Number one, I'm sorry Number
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  Speaker 3: two because number three, here's what it did to you?
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  Speaker 4: And number four, will you forgive me? It's really that simple.
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  Speaker 3: So let's say that two of the kids are having
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  Speaker 3: a fight and we chat with them and they agree
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  Speaker 3: that they need to apologize.
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  Speaker 4: One of them needs to apologize to the other one.
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  Speaker 3: She'll say, I'm sorry, Annie for yelling at you and
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  Speaker 3: calling you names.
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  Speaker 4: It made you feel horrible. Will you forgive me?
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  Speaker 3: And it's really that simple. It needs to be like
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  Speaker 3: a six second apology. Those four steps. The words are
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  Speaker 3: so important, I'm sorry, and then explaining what you did
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  Speaker 3: and how it affected the other person, with a follow
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  Speaker 3: up question right at the end, will you forgive me?
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  Speaker 3: And this is the critical thing because quite often, when
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  Speaker 3: somebody says I'm sorry, what's the obvious and immediate response
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  Speaker 3: that so many people will give.
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  Speaker 2: They usually say it's okay, right.
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  Speaker 3: And the thing is, most often it's not okay. It's
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  Speaker 3: not okay that they called you a name, it's not okay.
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  Speaker 3: They stole something, hit you, or did whatever it.
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  Speaker 4: Was that they did.
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  Speaker 3: And when we say it's okay in response to and
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  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, what we're actually doing is, rather than forgiving
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  Speaker 3: the person.
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  Speaker 2: We're brushing over the act.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
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  Speaker 3: We're almost saying the act was not acceptable in the moment,
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  Speaker 3: but now that you've acknowledged it, I'm going to allow
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  Speaker 3: the act to have occurred. I'm going to accept that
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  Speaker 3: it occurred and move on. And I just don't think
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  Speaker 3: that's the right message that we want to be encouraging
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  Speaker 3: our kids to absorb and to even perpetuate. What we
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  Speaker 3: want to do instead is say what has happened is wrong,
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  Speaker 3: but we forgive the person and then we move on.
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  Speaker 4: It's a different process.
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  Speaker 2: I think the two most powerful steps for me when
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  Speaker 2: I listen, even just listening to you talk about this now,
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  Speaker 2: is this acknowledgment of how it's actually impacted the person.
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  Speaker 2: What I've done has actually really hurt them, And by
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  Speaker 2: us being able to acknowledge, or our children being able
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  Speaker 2: to acknowledge how it's hurt them really validates their feelings.
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  Speaker 2: And then to ask that question, will you forgive me?
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  Speaker 2: It shows a level of humility. It shows an acknowledgment
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  Speaker 2: that I've actually fractured the relationship that we share and
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  Speaker 2: I want to restore it.
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  Speaker 3: That's the critical element. And I'm so glad that you've
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  Speaker 3: picked up on that ultimately, will you forgive me? Is
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  Speaker 3: an act of humble recognition, and that changes relationships. That's
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  Speaker 3: where we teach our kids what a true apology really is.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I am sorry that I'm not right there with you,
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  Speaker 2: honey right now.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know if I need to forgive you for
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  Speaker 3: that or not. It's kind of self inflicted, isn't it.
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  Speaker 3: But hopefully for any parent who's got kids who kind
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  Speaker 3: of get stuck into each other every now and again,
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  Speaker 3: or who make missteps, that's pretty much all of us.
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  Speaker 4: Hopefully these ideas around teaching kids how.
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  Speaker 3: To better apologize will be helpful and it works with
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  Speaker 3: kids from about the age of two or three all
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  Speaker 3: the way up to fully grown adults and beyond. The
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  Speaker 3: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
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  Speaker 4: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
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  Speaker 3: If you like more info about making your family happier,
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  Speaker 3: you can find it at happy families dot com dot au.