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STSE# 62 : The Hormone Rollercoaster · Sometimes There's Side Eye

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Welcome to Sometimes There's Side Eye, a podcast about two
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friends having real and unfiltered conversations about
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dogs and people listen as we talk about our lives with dogs,
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training, behavior, share some laughs and a whole lot of
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banter. I'm Heather.
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And I'm Christy, what are we talking about this week,
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Heather? Oh, this week we are going to
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talk about Trin and her hormones.
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OK, everybody don't. Don't stop listening, I swear.
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It's a good one. This is like my life has been
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shook over the last few weeks and I think that there is even
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information here that people will who will never have an
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intact animal could could be interested just to know.
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And benefit from it's yeah, for for a variety of reasons that
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we'll get into. Yeah, so gosh, where do we
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begin? Let me explain first that Trin
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is 23 months old. She my plan was to keep her
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intact through her second heat cycle and then spay her.
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She had her first heat cycle last November, so she was like
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15 months old. It was what we call a split
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heat. So essentially she started
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spotting for like 4 days. She stopped.
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Seven days later she had her full heat cycle.
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Her breeder had never experienced that before.
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So Fast forward last month, I started noticing things
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happening with her little body on the exterior, shall we say.
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Her Hoo ha was like a balloon. Her Hoo ha or otherwise known as
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her cooter was starting to get very very swollen.
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But the last time she started to go through changes that happened
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like months, it was like 2 months before she ever actually
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went into season. So yes, it was there.
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Yes, I noticed it. Yes, I talked about how ugly it
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was, but I didn't think, oh, tomorrow is the day, right?
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So I wasn't doing anything special, shall we say, in
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regards to her. Then on the 26th of June, we
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traveled to a friend's house and we have a trip planned to go to
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California. I take Trin, she sees my friends
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Great Dane whom she's been around multiple times who is now
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a year old and very large and she freaks out.
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And when I say freak out like I am comfortable at this point
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saying she had an aggressive reaction but I do not use that
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word lightly. It was very disconcerting.
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And it was not like, I'm a little dog and I'm gonna show
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you who, who, who I am. It it was very different.
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And I will say this, Zephyr was absolutely perfect.
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He was so kind to her. Yeah.
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We were like, OK, like this is not good.
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So at that point I was kind of like, well, he's really big.
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We're gonna come at this. We're gonna do a structured play
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group and put her with certain dogs that love Zephyr and love
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her with this whole plan, right? We we're coming at this because
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we can. Solve the insight for the other
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people got yeah, Yep. Bounce the deals off, yeah.
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All the things. So we spend the trip separating
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them. We go, we come back and I take
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her home. I came back on Saturday.
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I had her with my boys. Things seemed OK.
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I was on edge. For sure.
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But it seemed OK. As the week goes on, her
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behavior with my boys starts to mirror what she was doing with
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Zephyr, and it becomes increasingly worse.
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Praise God, I'm Here we go, Mr. Bulldog.
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What a good little bulldog, because he just needed a.
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Frenchie to come into your life so that you could sing his
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praises instead of being compared to.
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The because I am telling you something, he, he, he showed
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some real self restraint. He did.
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So at first it was a little bit here, a little bit there.
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Then I started to see her body, like I'm watching body, right?
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And I'm like seeing her stiffen. I'm seeing the hackles, full
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hackles. And I'm like, oh, we do not have
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good situations here. So then we made the decision.
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We're fully separating OK at this point.
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She. Starts spotting and we're like
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oh OK, this is heat cycle. Like, this is not great, but it
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is what it is. I did not understand at that
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point that the aggression could be that her heat cycle could be
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responsible for the aggression. Like I had heard stories of
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people saying, oh, they're females are more sensitive when
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they're in heat. They're this and that.
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Yeah. But like, full out aggression.
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No, I had not heard these stories.
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Right. At the same time, if you all are
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listeners to the podcast, you know my story and how my husband
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and I had a dog named Lucy, very different from Christie's Lucy,
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who was our third dog and who started with aggressive behavior
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when she was like 16 months old. So not trends age, but similar
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enough. Yeah, close enough to.
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Really trigger some feelings in a little PTSD.
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And it was a very rough time in our, in our lives.
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And we ended up living crate and rotate for 10 years.
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And it was something that was really hard with our marriage
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and our relationship. And we had since made a promise
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to each other that like we would not live that way again, right.
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And so if you can imagine the spectrum of feelings that I had
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going on during this period and my husband was extremely upset.
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And I thank God I have people like Christy in my life and
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reaching out to other people who are like, listen, just let her
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go through her cycle, like let things happen, whatever this is.
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I, I don't think this is who she is and I'm in my head saying
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behavior doesn't change for no reason.
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There has to be something going on.
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So then she stops spotting and I'm like great, OK, so maybe
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like 7 days later she's going to go into full heat and we'll kind
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of get through this and then I'll spay her and we'll be done.
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Two weeks go by and nothing. So I consult our vet friend and
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she's like I would spay her now. The reason that you were not
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wanting to spay her just for kind of people not in that
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world, the reason that you were not wanting to spay her before
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she finished that heat cycle is because it can cause
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complications and raise additional health issues.
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Yeah, like if they're in heat or they are pregnant and you spay
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them, there's extra bleeding risk.
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It's a harder recovery. There are a lot of reasons.
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And I wanted her to go through 2 full cycles just so that her
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body kind of got all the benefits of all the hormones.
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She's fully mature, you know, everything's good to go.
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But since I'm not planning to breed her, I then don't have to
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worry about the risk of Payametra for the rest of her
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life. So that was kind of my thought
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process. So I didn't really want to spay
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her if we didn't know where her heat pattern was.
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But her behavior was so extreme, and that was very disconcerting.
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I did make the decision last weekend to go ahead and spay
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her. She still was not bleeding, and
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her cooter had actually gotten a little smaller.
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So I question when would have even have happened.
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I don't know. Yeah.
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And so last Monday I took her to our friend Doctor Suni, who is
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awesome at spay and neuter, does super small incisions.
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She's very quick about the business and is super
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experienced and she did her spay for her and she made no note of
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her being extra risk or anything like that.
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And she didn't charge me for the in heat extra charge.
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So I I'm thinking. She may have just been done.
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Or that it was split and like who knows when it would have
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happened again. But then that also makes me
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think this roller coaster of hormones that this poor little
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dog was going through. Right.
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Yeah. Like it's crazy.
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And I think something to address in that is A1 you're coming from
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came from this very traumatic experience with with your Lucy.
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So I mean, we work through those things as human beings and it's
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been a lot of times, but I don't think those traumatic
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experiences ever fully go away because you're designed as a
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human being to learn from those experiences so that we don't
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keep repeating trauma to our body and to our brain.
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And and so it makes sense that with this situation, all that
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trauma came back up and all those emotions came back up.
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But I will say, even though it was really tough for you, I
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think one of the important things about laying a foundation
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of knowledge is that you kept going back to behavior doesn't
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change on a dime. Behavior doesn't change without
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reason. There's typically health reasons
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like check that first. So you came back to this
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foundation that you've built over the last how many years
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that at least you could hold on to that even though you.
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Were spiraling real tight, real tight.
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But I do think it it speaks to the importance of building
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foundations on truth so that when our emotions get the better
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of us, we have that truth to go back to.
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And people around you who continue to remind you of that
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truth. Yes.
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Yes, because there were times where I was really having
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trouble and really struggling to remember those things.
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You know, I also wanted to say. So once I made the decision to
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spay her, and I made the appointment for Monday, once I
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decided on Saturday that I was spaying her and I was talking to
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her breeder. Throughout this time, just so
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everybody knows, she was being supportive.
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She supported our decision. She's been amazing through this
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whole thing. But when I made the decision to
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do it, I then ended up actually posting on Facebook and saying
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everything was going on. And I wish I would have done
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that when it all started. I wish I had done that when it
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first happened because I would have felt so much more secure in
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it really truly being the hormones and I think it would
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have lightened the load up a little bit.
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However, that type of thing happening brings on a lot of
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shameful feelings. Like I so when it happened with
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Lucy, she was a Pitbull. So of course I don't want to
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talk about it 'cause she's a Pitbull.
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And so I really went inward and like there were all these little
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shame spirals, all this stuff, right?
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When this happened with with Trin, I had a lot of the same
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feelings, but for from different roots.
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It took me back to the shame. But then it was like, Oh, here I
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am this proponent of ethical breeding and everything else.
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And I spent all this time looking for this dog and waiting
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for her and doing everything, quote UN quote, right.
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And now I have this dog who has this problem, right?
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And that let the the other levels of shame just start to
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build on. And no one said that to me like
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that, Like I'm doing this to myself, right?
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Right. Right.
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But it's all there and I there's a lesson in me not sharing and
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the fact that had I shared and just sort of unburdened myself,
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I would have gotten all the responses that I got weeks
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before. And it was people who have been
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all walks of life and who shared with me.
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Oh, my female is over social when she's in season.
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My female is like Trin. My female had split heats and
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that was really hard on her and that made her hormones a mess.
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And those seem to be harder on females than other dogs, which
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makes sense when you logically think about it.
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My female, I just automatically separate when she's in season
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because I don't want to chance anything.
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And all different breeds, all different people, all different
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walks of life, all different ages.
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And so there's like a lesson in that too.
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And I just kind of wanted to air that a lot out a little bit too
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when we were talking about it. Yeah.
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And I would caution to because sometimes you share those things
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and it doesn't go that way. I have a good community.
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Yes, you have a good community. So I would say if you're not
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sure, maybe maybe make a subgroup community and share,
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find safe places to. Share.
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Yeah, my Facebook page is very private and very cultivated to
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supportive people in my life, so it is a safe space for me to
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share something like that. But I it's a very valid point.
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Make sure you know you're not sharing this out with like
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everybody that's going to come at you maybe.
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You don't share it on TikTok. Like, yeah.
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Maybe not, maybe not to your like 30,000 Instagram followers
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or maybe you want to, I don't know.
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But for me, I really needed that support.
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And had I shared earlier, I could have had more of that.
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And that's nothing against my small group who was supporting
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me, but the small group I had supporting me didn't have the
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experience with this situation. They just know trend.
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Right, we know trend, we also know some of the same
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foundations behavior that you know, some of those truths and
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foundations. But you're right, I'm I have
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never experienced an aggressive female in heat.
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I probably, I probably never will just because I don't plan
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to have a female intact female in my home at any point.
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So you're right, like and even our friends who do have intact
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females, they had very different experiences.
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I love that you were able to have a variety of of experiences
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through the community you've built.
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I also wanted to see if it would be OK if we talked about your
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friend who got a a spade female who had aggression after the
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spade. Oh yes, so I had a friend also
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who reached out and she has a lot of experience with intact
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bitches and spade bitches. She breeds and she also does
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rescue. And so she had shared with me,
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which I thought was super interesting that she had gotten,
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she had a Rottweiler female that she adopted from the shelter who
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was spayed during her heat cycle so that she could come home.
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And she was like a completely different dog when she came
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home. And so she was so aggressive
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that there was a consideration of behavioral euthanasia because
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my friend was like, how can I keep this dog in my house?
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Like it's not safe. It was that bad.
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And granted, Rottweiler aggression just based on dog
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size alone versus French bulldog is like a completely different
17:24
animal. But having said that, it was
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really, really bad. And so she went to her vet and
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said, hey, like, like this just does not match what I saw.
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And so her vet did a bunch of research and they ended up
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actually putting that bitch on hormones throughout her recovery
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to sort of like wean her off, wean her body off hormones, and
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then she was perfectly normal and dog social for the rest of
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her life. That's crazy.
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So that's insane. And I, I think one of the
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reasons that we want people to know about this is because that
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can easily happen in rescue. Yes, Lucy was actually fade when
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she was pregnant. I didn't know she was pregnant,
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but when I got the paperwork, when I picked her up, I
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realized. So that could have easily
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happened to me and I would have had no clue.
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So I just think it's good information to have whether
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you're in rescue or, or in the breeding world or whichever
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world, or if you're in both, it's just good information to
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have to in the back of your mind to go, hey, hormones actually
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really matter. They matter in people and they
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matter in dogs. And, and there's the body,
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whether it's a human body or, you know, a dog's body is so
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amazing because all these things have to go right?
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And they're all need to be in balance for optimal existence.
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And that doesn't change for dogs.
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And so I think addressing that dogs also have hormonal
19:03
fluctuations and need hormones in the right amount is is
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something that is not talked about one very often, which is
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not surprising. We're just now starting to talk
19:15
about female hormones and it's, you know, in.
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People I know, yeah, that's true.
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Give it a while before we get to the dogs, But but I do think
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it's important to to realize that they're just as important
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in dogs. Yeah.
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Well, I think it's interesting too, because, you know, as much
19:35
research as we like is not there, but like, look at all the
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anecdotal experience that all of my friends, my community were
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able to offer because they have lived with intact bitches for
19:46
for so long and in different scenarios.
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Whereas this is the first time for me.
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And so there's so much wealth of knowledge there.
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There's so much value in that. One other story I wanted to
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share because I think like in the rescue world, I think about
20:00
it as well. One of my friends shared that
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her bulldog different person. She had kept her intact until
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she was five years old. And this is a dog I've met in
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person. She's a super accomplished sport
20:14
dog. She's very, very confident and
20:16
stable in temperament. And she shared with me that when
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she would go through and be in active heat that she would
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actually become skittish and fearful.
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And that was only during her cycle.
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And then when her when she was done, she would go back to
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normal dog and she had noticed. So she spayed her last year at
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five years old. She noticed this year that she
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became this like odd skittish behavior again.
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And she looked at her calendar and it would have been when she
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was in season. She spayed.
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Oh that is so interesting. So like her body is still going
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through the brain reaction and the behavior reaction, but like
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the hormones and the body parts are no longer there.
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What I know? That's insane.
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So when you think about that, and this is now, I will say I
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have personal experience with a friend's female who she dogs
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responded to her smell after she was spayed.
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And by dogs, I mean Tiago, so much so after she was spayed and
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it would have been that time for her to have been in heat that
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they actually took her for an ultrasound to make sure that
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there was no, no parts of her uterus left behind because
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that's how strong the reaction from Tiago to her was.
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And we really questioned, was she completely, you know, was
21:47
the procedure a full success? It was.
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But you just imagine, like her body was putting something off
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in the time that would have been her heat, but she didn't have
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the parts anymore. And it was so strong that Tiago
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was still responding to it. That's crazy.
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And what's interesting is I had actually forgotten this, but
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when I first got Lucy, the first several years I had Lucy, I
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talked to other people about getting her checked because at
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the time of the open antique shelter that I got her at, had
22:22
had some problems with a vet that was not doing full space
22:26
and leaving parts behind. And so, so many dogs were so
22:31
interested in her that I thought maybe she's one of them.
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Like maybe there is something left behind and for other
22:39
reasons. She got X-rayed and different
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thing and they're like, no, nothing's left in there.
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Like you're OK. So.
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But I do wonder if she was still for for the next few years going
22:51
through that in her body. Yeah, so her little body
22:54
chemistry, that's so interesting to me.
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And I just, I think to myself, well, in regards to Trin, I need
23:02
to be, I will probably need to be reminded of that because in
23:06
15 months, if she goes through a little temperamental period, I
23:11
need to be reminded, hey, this is, this is her body doing its
23:15
thing. This is not who she is, right?
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And so I, you can just like rewind and play this episode for
23:23
me when that if that happens. But I also think it's really
23:27
interesting from a behavior standpoint and how we see dogs
23:32
in the shelter and how they interact.
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I actually shared this whole story with a friend who is
23:38
extremely involved in a shelter, in a rescue.
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And she had told me that they actually evaluated 2 females at
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the shelter that they were going to take in that were intact.
23:49
And they were like super social with each other, loved each
23:53
other, everything was great. They took them in and they had
23:57
litters, they spayed them and, and they started to have dog,
24:00
dog problems. And so I just, I mean, the ship
24:06
has sailed. Obviously in shelter, like you
24:08
can't make you can't, you're in some ways limited by like
24:13
working through volume, right? That's unfortunate.
24:16
We can't make decisions we want to make because we there's a
24:19
crisis. But I think it's interesting.
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So then one of those dogs ended up going on to live with people
24:26
and she is dog social. OK, so that like that's so
24:32
curious to me. And, and when I was telling this
24:35
person this story, instantly this story about these two
24:38
females, immediately she was like, I gotta tell you about
24:40
this. So I don't know, it's just
24:44
something and it's something where we just have to be like
24:47
just tuck that little kernel away and do what you will with
24:53
it. If you get a, if you meet a
24:56
female and rescue who's intact and you fall in love with her
24:59
and then they spay her and she comes home and she's a
25:02
completely different dog. I would say if possible, give it
25:06
time. There could be something going
25:09
on there. Consult your vet, talk to them
25:11
about possible hormones, literally hormone replacement
25:14
therapy. They might look at you like you
25:17
have 3 heads, but I mean, I have heard enough stories in the last
25:22
month at this point that there is plenty of evidence that there
25:27
is something to this. I've seen this in my home.
25:30
Trin was spayed on Monday. She's back to her normal self
25:34
with one exception. So I didn't even tell Christy
25:38
about this yet. So last night she was extremely
25:42
tired. She was away in her pen.
25:44
She's still coming off anesthesia.
25:46
This is my fault by the way. OK.
25:49
She had been out with the boys all day yesterday, no issues
25:54
other than her wanting to play with them and like not being
25:57
allowed. So she's all curled up in her
26:00
little pen sleeping. She literally was passed out and
26:04
I was thinking oh I want to give her like little time to lay with
26:08
my husband. She loves to lay on his chest
26:10
and just canoodle with him. It's really cute.
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And so I go and get her and I like open the pen and no
26:18
response. I should have stopped there,
26:20
shut the door and left her alone.
26:23
Hindsight's Tony Funny. Instead I like wow the sleeping
26:28
yard, which is so weird knew. What was best?
26:31
Because you know she's gonna love time on Jerry's chest.
26:35
Why? Why?
26:36
Why? So I pick her up because I don't
26:40
want her to jump on the couch and she loves.
26:43
Being picked up she loves. Like this is literally PSA not
26:48
what to do I go. I place her with my husband and
26:54
he shifts his body to make room for her which immediately means
27:00
that he has now opened a spot for Tater to come and lay with
27:05
him at the same time and away we go.
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So Trin is like freaking out cuz Tater's now like a foot away.
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I have like awakened the beast and I started this whole thing
27:24
when I literally should have never done anything.
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So then I immediately am like shit.
27:29
So I grab her, I put her back in her pen and she curls up into a
27:34
little ball and goes back to sleep.
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She was like, this whole thing was a bad dream.
27:40
I'm just going back to. Sleep and she's been with the
27:42
boys all day today and totally fine.
27:45
I literally was like that should have never happened.
27:50
Hey, dumb ass. We all make mistakes in the best
27:54
of intentions, you know. Yeah.
27:56
So I think that we will be cautious probably for the next
28:00
few weeks. I will be giving her a little
28:03
her own time. Right now as I'm recording her
28:06
and Thiago are in the office with me.
28:08
They're both sleeping on separate beds.
28:10
I think it's interesting that she is.
28:12
She is a very cuddly with another dog.
28:14
Cuddly. And she has made zero attempt to
28:18
cuddle with my dogs since this whole thing has happened.
28:21
Oh, Jackson's going to be so exciting.
28:23
I know he would be so happy about that, but for her, that is
28:27
odd. And I think that that is her,
28:29
like, keeping her body away. Like I don't want to be
28:32
bothered. Yeah, 'cause I'm taking.
28:35
Notes to be messed with after surgery.
28:37
Like I'm grumpy too. Like, don't touch me, everybody
28:40
get away. So I'm being very outside of
28:45
last night, I'm being very cautious.
28:47
I'm making sure there's two beds out or two blankets out or just
28:51
little things like that so that she can kind of have her own
28:54
space. But this whole thing has been
28:59
such an emotional roller coaster and I have learned so much.
29:05
I feel like, and again, this is anecdotal, but I do feel like a
29:10
part of this was the split heap portion because like the
29:14
hormones up, the hormones down, the hormones up, the hormones
29:17
down. That is terrible.
29:19
And so I do feel like that's a component.
29:23
I'd also think it's interesting when I saw her relaxing before I
29:27
spayed her, but I saw her behavior relaxing.
29:30
I had our friend bring over her intact female who Trin grew up
29:35
with her, our Stafford friend and I.
29:39
It was the first dog that Trin was around since all this
29:42
started. And I had separated her, and she
29:45
was completely normal with Frankie.
29:47
Like, completely normal. Was she spicy in the pool around
29:51
toys? Yeah, like, normal spice.
29:53
Nothing out of ordinary. And so I think that's
29:57
interesting, too. There's no threat there because
29:59
she's a female. Like, did that make her feel
30:01
more comfortable? Because it's like, well, you
30:03
ain't trying to get up in my bits, you know?
30:06
Why? Or was it just that she had
30:09
relaxed at that point because the hormones had come back down
30:12
and she was no longer affected? I mean, the day after I did that
30:16
was the the first day after, you know, she started to relax that
30:20
I tried putting her back with the boys.
30:21
So and she was fine before I spayed her.
30:24
Who knows? But I, I totally agree with you.
30:27
All decisions need to need to be made on an individual basis.
30:31
And like, if you know at your core who your dog is and
30:36
something behaviorally turns on its head, immediately, search
30:40
for a medical issue. Like immediately, because there
30:46
could be something physical going on with your dog that
30:50
completely changes how they behave.
30:52
And there, that's your tip off. Yeah.
30:58
So we just want to thank Trenz Hoo Ha for all these amazing
31:02
lessons and for bringing us this episode.
31:05
Can't even. You are welcome everyone.
31:17
If you've enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate and share us
31:22
wherever you get your podcast. Also come on over to Instagram
31:26
and engage with us at Sometimes Their Side Eye.
31:29
Thanks for listening everybody. Talk to you next time.
31:32
Bye bye.