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What is Bibliotherapy in Play Therapy? · Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

• 0:02
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy, a weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services.
• 0:14
  Cathi Spooner: We'll explore all things play therapy to elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play.
• 0:23
  Cathi Spooner: I'll discuss practical tips and ideas.
• 0:26
  Cathi Spooner: So you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives.
• 0:34
  Cathi Spooner: So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families.
• 0:47
  Cathi Spooner: Hey there, welcome everyone.
• 0:49
  Cathi Spooner: Welcome to the episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 0:55
  Cathi Spooner: And I am so excited.
• 0:57
  Cathi Spooner: This week we have Tammy Van Hollander and we're going to talk about what I think is a really popular kind of way to work with children in play therapy and that is Bibliotherapy, I also find that people kind of kind of know what it is and so today we're going to talk about like, what is bibliotherapy and Tammy's new book that she's got coming out.
• 1:26
  Cathi Spooner: It's like going to be on the shelves any day now that really uses more of a, uh, kind of a neurobiology and, attachment approach and looking at different ways you can use play therapy, um, bibliotherapy with, with play therapy and specific resources.
• 1:48
  Cathi Spooner: Like, I think she does a really great job of, like, helping you step by step know what to do so that you have some really good ways to really help your clients heal using play therapy.
• 2:02
  Cathi Spooner: So that is what we are going to discuss today.
• 2:06
  Cathi Spooner: Um, I'm Cathi Spooner, a licensed clinical social worker and registered play therapist.
• 2:13
  Cathi Spooner: If any of you have it, if you want to join the conversation, please feel free to post a comment.
• 2:20
  Cathi Spooner: We'd love to know who's here watching the live stream.
• 2:23
  Cathi Spooner: Where are you from?
• 2:24
  Cathi Spooner: What population you work with?
• 2:27
  Cathi Spooner: Are you using bibliotherapy?
• 2:29
  Cathi Spooner: Do you have some favorite books that you're using?
• 2:33
  Cathi Spooner: The only thing that we ask is that you not, like, post information about clients or ask questions about specific clients because it is a public format and we want to maintain some privacy.
• 2:47
  Cathi Spooner: So with that, I'm going to let Tammy go ahead.
• 2:51
  Cathi Spooner: If you want to say a couple of things about yourself, introduce yourself and then we'll get started.
• 2:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: Okay.
• 2:58
  Tammi Van Hollander: Cathi, thanks so much for inviting me to be here to talk about a topic that I'm just so passionate about.
• 3:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I am a licensed clinical social worker and I registered play therapy supervisor.
• 3:12
  Tammi Van Hollander: I have been a play therapist for almost 25 years.
• 3:16
  Tammi Van Hollander: This is my passion.
• 3:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: Uh, sand tray is my passion.
• 3:21
  Tammi Van Hollander: I was fortunate enough to do a sand tray TEDx talk in October.
• 3:27
  Tammi Van Hollander: I have a, group practice, mainline play therapy, right outside of Philadelphia.
• 3:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: And when I was trying to expand the practice, I was looking for me, many play therapists, and it was really difficult to find.
• 3:42
  Tammi Van Hollander: So it really became an expressive therapy center.
• 3:45
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I have, um, art therapist and dancing movement therapist, and it's a beautiful way, especially with supervision, how we can share all of our knowledge because it was very important.
• 3:59
  Tammi Van Hollander: If I am going to expand the practice that expressive arts, expressive therapies, those who understand the bottom up approach, the neurobiology, the attachment piece.
• 4:12
  Tammi Van Hollander: And that I wasn't going to bring into the practice more of a top down approach and a CBT type of approach, because it's just not within the realm of the work, the work that, that I do, and I really wanted it to, to all be congruent and, uh, together.
• 4:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: So, uh, that's, that's a little bit about me and my practice.
• 4:39
  Tammi Van Hollander: And maybe, Cathi, I can just tell you a little bit the story of how I got introduced to bibliotherapy and how I got
• 4:47
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, yeah, that'd be awesome!
• 4:49
  Tammi Van Hollander: Because I am guessing those of you who use books and those of you who are play therapists and who have gone to any Association for Play Therapy conferences, you probably have had the same introduction that I have had.
• 5:04
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I was trained at the Family and Play Therapy Center in Philadelphia, very strictly in client centered play therapy.
• 5:13
  Tammi Van Hollander: And in client centered play therapy, books were not introduced.
• 5:18
  Tammi Van Hollander: Books were not seen as client centered, and I had gone to my first Association for Play Therapy conference, and I was at the self esteem shop,
• 5:28
  Cathi Spooner: and I spent way too much money there all the time.
• 5:32
  Cathi Spooner: That place is amazing.
• 5:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: They are so wonderful, and at that time, it was Dee Dee Gruenberg.
• 5:40
  Tammi Van Hollander: Oh, yep.
• 5:41
  Tammi Van Hollander: Many of us who have been around know Dee Dee.
• 5:45
  Tammi Van Hollander: We love Dee Dee.
• 5:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: And everybody would come up to Dee Dee and they'd say, what's the book for this?
• 5:51
  Tammi Van Hollander: And what's the book for that?
• 5:53
  Tammi Van Hollander: And Dee Dee would pull a book and she would read it as if you were her grandchild or her client.
• 5:59
  Tammi Van Hollander: And then she read it with such a zest and you would just melt.
• 6:04
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I would be like, wow.
• 6:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: Wow.
• 6:06
  Tammi Van Hollander: You know, this, this is really powerful stuff.
• 6:09
  Tammi Van Hollander: This and I started buying books and buying books and creating this therapeutic library and recognizing how I can still have a client centered foundation and look at the beauty and the similarities of using books and using play therapy of creating that safe psychological distance, creating that attunement, creating that beautiful attachment, and how we can use books both to settle a child or, or If they're first needing something right more sensory and to get them then back into that ventral, what are the different ways and I started using it so much books within telehealth during the pandemic as well.
• 7:03
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, I feel like a lot of people were trying to figure out ways to provide play therapy and bibliotherapy was a really good way to be able to do that so much.
• 7:15
  Tammi Van Hollander: Absolutely.
• 7:16
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, my little three and four year olds, you know, they would be bouncing off the walls and it would be so hard for them to to be online.
• 7:25
  Tammi Van Hollander: So we all know those of us who had to do it.
• 7:27
  Tammi Van Hollander: We had to be creative and they didn't have to sit and they could move around.
• 7:31
  Tammi Van Hollander: But when these kiddos would come and they would share their favorite book and they would have it online and I would share my favorite book and this beautiful, right, Polly Vagel, Games of Reciprocity, us reading, you know, you read a page, I read a page, that back and forth, that attunement, that, that beautiful space of creating safety and being together.
• 7:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: And so I think that sometimes people think that when using books, that it often is a very top down approach.
• 8:08
  Tammi Van Hollander: And we do have books.
• 8:10
  Cathi Spooner: That's a really good point.
• 8:11
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 8:12
  Tammi Van Hollander: And we do have books that provide psychoeducation, which are wonderful.
• 8:17
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, it's wonderful to have psychoeducation books on trauma, on the brain, on all of those pieces.
• 8:25
  Tammi Van Hollander: But it's also wonderful to have a books that create, these stories where children can identify with the characters that they no longer feel alone.
• 8:37
  Tammi Van Hollander: And then within the play therapy process, they can expand on these characters.
• 8:43
  Tammi Van Hollander: They can create their own ending.
• 8:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: They can create their own character and it just becomes these books become part of their story.
• 8:54
  Tammi Van Hollander: And that's what's so beautiful about it as well, that they're no longer alone with whatever they're struggling with.
• 9:02
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 9:02
  Cathi Spooner: And I actually use a lot for all the, a lot of the reasons you just said, I, cause I like doing Attachment Focused Family Play Therapy.
• 9:11
  Cathi Spooner: And when I have the parents and the kids in there, I use bibliotherapy all the time and have the kids and the parents together.
• 9:19
  Cathi Spooner: And they're kind of snuggled while the parents are reading the book.
• 9:23
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 9:24
  Cathi Spooner: I think, you know, that whole attachment piece that you were talking about is really important because I don't think we always think about that because we think top down, not, not that bottom up.
• 9:37
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Cathi Spooner: That's a really great point.
• 9:40
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah, so I mean, there really is this this beautiful connection when it comes to books.
• 9:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, I have my therapeutic library and since I am more client centered, many of the books are just out and it may even be the child may even pick the book and within it.
• 9:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, you know, Cathi, you and I have been doing this a long time, and when you've been doing it as long as, as we have been doing it, you don't often need an agenda.
• 10:07
  Tammi Van Hollander: Like a child can almost come up with any book, and we can creatively just kind of, I feel like of, although I train all over and I do these pieces, and I may teach interventions, but I don't really believe that they're interventions.
• 10:26
  Tammi Van Hollander: I believe that they're a problem.
• 10:28
  Tammi Van Hollander: So a question that I will often get is, well, what happens if my client doesn't like books?
• 10:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: And the simple answer is don't use them, all right?
• 10:39
  Tammi Van Hollander: Or it's like, oh, well, I have this book.
• 10:41
  Tammi Van Hollander: Let me just tell you what it's about.
• 10:43
  Tammi Van Hollander: And you can share it.
• 10:44
  Tammi Van Hollander: And if it's too long, you shorten it.
• 10:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: And if it's too short, you make it longer.
• 10:51
  Tammi Van Hollander: So there's two ways.
• 10:51
  Tammi Van Hollander: So many ways that we can do it together.
• 10:55
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, one of my favorite things that I just yesterday, I was this little girl who loves books and loves nature.
• 11:02
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I had my big Yogi bow, which is this big bean bag.
• 11:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: If none of you know it, they're awesome.
• 11:07
  Tammi Van Hollander: And we took a big blanket and we sat under a tree and I have a beautiful nature space and we just brought out the books and we, you know, cuddled up and, uh, with a parent and they cuddled up and just.
• 11:21
  Tammi Van Hollander: Just being in nature and having all of the sensory elements as well, while just being able to, to share and, and to read, it was just so beautiful.
• 11:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I love, um, being able to also, if you're able to, and if you have releases to be able to be outside, it's a great way to incorporate nature and just sitting under a tree.
• 11:46
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, and that, that whole idea, I think, you know, one of the things I talk to people all the time about as well when I'm doing consultation is never, and this to me is the attachment component, right?
• 12:00
  Cathi Spooner: And that neuro interpersonal neurobiology piece of attunement through that attachment relationship, don't ever underestimate the power of presence and that, um, time of being fully seen and heard.
• 12:23
  Cathi Spooner: by just kind of hanging out.
• 12:26
  Cathi Spooner: So, you know, as you were talking about reading the books and being together, and it's more about just the cognitive aspect of it, it's that whole relational aspect of it.
• 12:39
  Cathi Spooner: When we are like Daniel Siegel talks about those resonance circuits, right?
• 12:45
  Cathi Spooner: We're like resonating physiologically, even through that, calm and regulated and connected and safe space.
• 12:57
  Cathi Spooner: And that, that in and of itself is healing.
• 13:03
  Cathi Spooner: Which is, which is why I think child centered play therapy works so well is because it's all about the relationship.
• 13:11
  Cathi Spooner: And, um, we, we bring that into the different models too, different plate therapy models, that therapeutic relationship is the core.
• 13:22
  Cathi Spooner: And then add, I mean, how many of us, I don't know, I don't know about you, but when I was little, I consumed books.
• 13:31
  Cathi Spooner: I was, uh, just like reading all the time.
• 13:34
  Cathi Spooner: How many of us kind of have experiences of snuggling up with a good book and being lost in a good book and how, how just amazing that is.
• 13:45
  Cathi Spooner: And then to have that, and using it therapeutically.
• 13:51
  Cathi Spooner: in play therapy.
• 13:53
  Tammi Van Hollander: It's really amazing.
• 13:56
  Tammi Van Hollander: You know, when we're talking about connection and we're talking about safe spaces, right?
• 14:03
  Tammi Van Hollander: You know, we're having kids and we're seeing kids with trauma.
• 14:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: There's cues of danger and being able to recognize, right?
• 14:12
  Tammi Van Hollander: All of the pieces, our own tone, how bright the lights are.
• 14:15
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, you will see if anybody had a snapshot into my playroom, the amount of fort making and little lighted candles or flashlights where we're actually reading the books and turn cool and creating these spaces and then going in and reading the book and, and having the parent go in to read the book.
• 14:40
  Tammi Van Hollander: So recognizing that there's, there's so many ways that we can creatively use it.
• 14:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: You know, when we look at, when we think of developmental play therapy, developmental bibliotherapy.
• 14:52
  Tammi Van Hollander: Developmental bibliotherapy is often used in the school and it is very directive and it is psychoeducational.
• 15:01
  Tammi Van Hollander: And then we have the therapeutic bibliotherapy that is used within a therapy setting and often there is a very directive intention for it.
• 15:10
  Tammi Van Hollander: But if we expand and we do this play based bibliotherapy, it's taking the book and sometimes the book may be directive.
• 15:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: You may have a book in mind or it may not be.
• 15:22
  Tammi Van Hollander: And how are we still trusting the process following the child's lead?
• 15:27
  Tammi Van Hollander: Now, when we have a child coming into the office as client centered, right, we have a child who may be really bouncy.
• 15:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: So we're gonna like, even when they're bouncy, we're gonna we make find a book that has some activities that are creating movement and our tone and our inflection right is going to be that way.
• 15:45
  Tammi Van Hollander: We have a child who's a little more quiet.
• 15:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: We're going to be a little more quiet, just like we do it in just like we do it and play therapy.
• 15:53
  Tammi Van Hollander: Even the little parts of the books where it asks a little question.
• 15:58
  Tammi Van Hollander: We may even use our little hand technique that we can incorporate those different pieces to create that beautiful safety and know that like this is their space and that in no way are we trying to push a child to ever do what they want.
• 16:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: It is there for the beauty to create more connection, to create more safety, to create more of an understanding.
• 16:29
  Tammi Van Hollander: But every child is different and we have to know our child.
• 16:32
  Tammi Van Hollander: I think that often when we hear of interventions or different types of things.
• 16:39
  Tammi Van Hollander: I have to say with any of the trainings that I do, I'm like, I've shared so many things.
• 16:43
  Tammi Van Hollander: I don't want you to just go out and go down the list.
• 16:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: Or when I'm teaching a sand tray training of processing questions, don't just go down the list there.
• 16:53
  Tammi Van Hollander: As we do this work, it becomes so much more intuitive.
• 16:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I think a really important part.
• 16:59
  Tammi Van Hollander: What also made me love books so much was I was trained in first play with Janet Courtney and kinesthetic storytelling.
• 17:06
  Tammi Van Hollander: So, um, I have a book called Casey's Greatness Wings teaching mindfulness connection, um, to children.
• 17:14
  Tammi Van Hollander: And there's several of us play therapists who have kinesthetic storytelling books, and these books are so beautiful because as you're reading the book, the parent.
• 17:25
  Tammi Van Hollander: is doing the book on the child's back.
• 17:28
  Tammi Van Hollander: So amazing multi sensory experience.
• 17:32
  Tammi Van Hollander: And while the parent does it on the child's back, the child could either be doing it on a stuffed animal.
• 17:40
  Tammi Van Hollander: They could be doing it on the sand tray.
• 17:42
  Tammi Van Hollander: They could be doing it with paper and drawing.
• 17:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: And it's amazing.
• 17:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: And once you introduce one kinesthetic storytelling book, parents are like, wow, we could do these backstories on with any book.
• 18:00
  Tammi Van Hollander: And so I have to give a shout out to Janet Courtney and, um, her work for really introducing me to just the power of kinesthetic storytelling and recognizing just it's just notching up.
• 18:16
  Tammi Van Hollander: It's notching up that attachment piece while giving the therapeutic power of of touch while always asking permission while always making touches.
• 18:24
  Tammi Van Hollander: Okay, making sure touches.
• 18:26
  Tammi Van Hollander: Okay to, um, create more of those cues of safety.
• 18:32
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 18:33
  Cathi Spooner: I never even thought about that.
• 18:35
  Cathi Spooner: That's a great idea, especially what I mean any age kid really that whole idea of touch and connection and, you know, safety and going at their pace, even kids who are a little more standoffish, or maybe they don't do the sensory very well.
• 18:51
  Cathi Spooner: There's still a way you can do it safely to connect with them that way, too.
• 18:59
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 19:01
  Cathi Spooner: So if you sorry, I was gonna, um, I was wondering, so if you like what are some strategies that you typically suggest.
• 19:12
  Cathi Spooner: And I know in your book, which, um, for any of you watching either on the live stream or on the replay.
• 19:22
  Cathi Spooner: So, um, the replays will usually populate right after the broadcast ends.
• 19:28
  Cathi Spooner: But for any of you listening to the podcast.
• 19:32
  Cathi Spooner: Then you won't have the visual.
• 19:34
  Cathi Spooner: But if you look in the, if you look in the description, you'll see the name of Tammy's book.
• 19:41
  Cathi Spooner: And also at the end, we'll kind of post some information in the comments where you can find things.
• 19:47
  Cathi Spooner: Um, your book is coming out next, next week, I think, right?
• 19:52
  Cathi Spooner: It's, it's going to hit the shelves any day now.
• 19:54
  Tammi Van Hollander: July 30th, but, um, through Pessy, it's already hit self esteem shops that they got them early and a few people who've ordered on Amazon has got, have gotten them early.
• 20:06
  Tammi Van Hollander: So they should be coming out.
• 20:11
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yep.
• 20:11
  Cathi Spooner: I think in your book, you talk a lot about different strategies to use.
• 20:19
  Cathi Spooner: And, um, so I, I was thinking like, are there any specific kind of strategies that you like to use or things to think about, like top things to think about when you're thinking about using bibliotherapy?
• 20:36
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah, well, I think it's really important that you, you know, always have to preview the book.
• 20:42
  Tammi Van Hollander: Never just have a book and you don't know about it.
• 20:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: I have within my therapeutic library, and I think may, I'll, maybe I'll post it again, maybe on my Instagram of I have the, um, these cardboard.
• 21:01
  Tammi Van Hollander: But I guess they're for for files.
• 21:03
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I have them listed within my library.
• 21:06
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I'll have like bullying and friendship and I will have worry and anxiety.
• 21:14
  Tammi Van Hollander: And so some of these different pieces and then more of the trauma ones.
• 21:18
  Tammi Van Hollander: I have in a separate spot, but inclusivity, all of those pieces are all within the, the therapeutic library.
• 21:27
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I think one is really important to really know the book, you know, not, not be surprised by anything.
• 21:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: Really know your audience, you know, like for some book, books on grief they may talk about heaven and that may not be congruent to what somebody's religious beliefs are.
• 21:45
  Tammi Van Hollander: We have to really recognize and read the book and understand the entire family because a certain book, a child may really love it, but the parents may may may feel unsafe in some way.
• 22:00
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I'll often say to a parent, if I'm with a child or in the playroom, I will first have the parent preview the book and say, well, next week, because I just want to make sure that they feel confident and they know the book.
• 22:17
  Tammi Van Hollander: And so I think having a parent preview it can also be really helpful.
• 22:24
  Tammi Van Hollander: You also want to be aware of the length of time of how long is the book going to take.
• 22:31
  Tammi Van Hollander: And if you have a specific intervention and activity in mind, the book may take so much time and then you're going to rush the activity.
• 22:41
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 22:42
  Tammi Van Hollander: Just being aware of your time.
• 22:45
  Tammi Van Hollander: In my training with Dottie Higgins Klein, the setup that I had learned was that we would do a check in and I was very fortunate to have a talk time room and a client centered room.
• 22:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: So when my families come in, we first do a check in and that check in is often play base.
• 23:03
  Tammi Van Hollander: We may do flip flop feelings or we may read a book.
• 23:07
  Tammi Van Hollander: So it works out really beautifully with how I do my play therapy sessions because we have this reality time where then we can read, we can check in, and often within the work I'm doing, I'm always celebrating the strengths.
• 23:22
  Tammi Van Hollander: I'm always celebrating what is going right.
• 23:25
  Tammi Van Hollander: I am an advanced nurtured heart approach trainer and working on kids greatness and being I can kids is one of my priorities.
• 23:35
  Tammi Van Hollander: So we'll do that.
• 23:37
  Tammi Van Hollander: And then when they go into the playroom, it's still client centered, but we're bridging the book if they want to.
• 23:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: While even the activities are still very much implemented in terms of that client centered feel.
• 23:55
  Cathi Spooner: Well, that's a nice way to do kind of that integrated approach where you're doing that directive and integrating in the child centered.
• 24:06
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 24:06
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah.
• 24:07
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah.
• 24:07
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, it's hard.
• 24:08
  Tammi Van Hollander: Not everybody's able to have two separate rooms and, uh, to be able to do it.
• 24:14
  Tammi Van Hollander: But, you know, and I think another really important piece is how therapeutic these children's books are for parents.
• 24:24
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, that's a really good point.
• 24:25
  Cathi Spooner: I never even thought about that.
• 24:27
  Tammi Van Hollander: I will often.
• 24:29
  Tammi Van Hollander: Give these children's books to parents in the waiting room to read just for themselves.
• 24:36
  Tammi Van Hollander: Oh psycho education for their own way to hold space.
• 24:42
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, so many therapeutic books in the back have a lot of, um, a lot of ideas for, you know, for teachers.
• 24:51
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, what a great idea.
• 24:53
  Tammi Van Hollander: And being able to do it.
• 24:56
  Tammi Van Hollander: But one book that is actually the first book that I talk about in the bibliotherapy toolbox.
• 25:01
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I did a bibliotherapy, um, I spoke at the play, the play therapy summit at Pessy on bibliotherapy.
• 25:10
  Tammi Van Hollander: And my favorite book that I give to parents is The Rabbit Listened.
• 25:16
  Tammi Van Hollander: Do you know The Rabbit Listened?
• 25:18
  Cathi Spooner: I don't know that one.
• 25:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: Oh, by Corey Deerfield.
• 25:21
  Tammi Van Hollander: So if you were to ask me one book for everybody to
• 25:23
  Cathi Spooner: I have to look it up now.
• 25:25
  Tammi Van Hollander: And it is such a beautiful book.
• 25:28
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I have this big stuffed animal rabbit.
• 25:31
  Tammi Van Hollander: So the rabbit is my co therapist.
• 25:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: And in this book, the child Corey gets upset said it knocks down these blocks and that all these different animals come and the different animals come in and they tell Cory how to react.
• 25:50
  Tammi Van Hollander: So the, you know, the, the hyena wants to laugh about it and the, you know, bear, the lion wants to roar about it and one wants to yell about it and one wants to stomp about it and all, they all tell the child how to react.
• 26:09
  Tammi Van Hollander: To the blocks falling down.
• 26:13
  Tammi Van Hollander: And the whole time there's this little rabbit in the back and the rabbit comes over and cuddles up next to Corey and just listens.
• 26:23
  Tammi Van Hollander: And as the rabbit listens, then Corey is able to yell about it or cry about it and stomp about it.
• 26:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: But it wasn't until the rabbit was just there.
• 26:37
  Tammi Van Hollander: The rabbit's presence and holding space that then Corey was able to express Corey self, however, Corey could.
• 26:48
  Tammi Van Hollander: And so I give this book to parents and they're like, I need this.
• 26:54
  Tammi Van Hollander: I just need to hold that space to listen.
• 26:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: And one of the interventions in this book is which of these animals are your parent?
• 27:04
  Tammi Van Hollander: Which are these animals are your team upset and how they can relate to these animals and, that it doesn't work for them and then how we can share that with the parents, how we could share it with the teachers, how we could share it with the different adults in the child's life.
• 27:21
  Tammi Van Hollander: Grandparents, caretakers of your child needs you to be the rabbit.
• 27:28
  Tammi Van Hollander: So just a beautiful way that we don't have to go through the list of all the behavioral pieces of how are we teaching attunement and connection to parents and creating these safe spaces with these beautiful children's books.
• 27:43
  Cathi Spooner: That's awesome.
• 27:43
  Cathi Spooner: What's the name of that book again?
• 27:45
  Cathi Spooner: I feel like we're all going to be looking at it.
• 27:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: The Rabbit Listened.
• 27:48
  Cathi Spooner: The Rabbit Listened..
• 27:50
  Cathi Spooner: You know, that's a really, as you were saying that I was thinking, what a great way to help parents understand co regulation.
• 27:58
  Cathi Spooner: You know, you, you can use that as a way to, you know, give them some visuals and kind of make those connections about co regulation.
• 28:11
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, that's a great idea.
• 28:13
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah.
• 28:14
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah.
• 28:14
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I mean, there are so many and I think, you know, some of the things people will have asked who've already even received the book in terms of, wow, these are a lot of books because it basically goes through.
• 28:26
  Tammi Van Hollander: I've been for years.
• 28:29
  Tammi Van Hollander: Everybody will ask me, I get emails and calls.
• 28:32
  Tammi Van Hollander: Uh, What's the best book on divorce?
• 28:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: What's the best book on trauma?
• 28:35
  Tammi Van Hollander: What's the best book, you know, on any, any inclusivity.
• 28:40
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I've had this list for years.
• 28:42
  Tammi Van Hollander: So here, and that's why I really hope it's a really great resources for, for schools and for guidance counselors that, whatever the situation is, we can look and here are some ideas of some books.
• 28:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: And there's so there's books specifically with interventions.
• 29:00
  Tammi Van Hollander: Then there's other resources of books and then what materials are really recommended for them and ways that we're able to have them in in the playroom.
• 29:12
  Tammi Van Hollander: And you know what I'll often say is that this that book may work, but you may have a book on the same subject that will work really well.
• 29:21
  Tammi Van Hollander: It will work fine as well.
• 29:23
  Tammi Van Hollander: Mm-Hmm, . And another, although it's really important to support the authors, um, in no way am I getting any type of compensation for any of these, these books in here, and there are so many amazing books.
• 29:40
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, there's going to have to be a second edition, a third edition.
• 29:44
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, there are so many amazing books that I haven't even been close to touching it.
• 29:49
  Tammi Van Hollander: So you find the books that you love and you could implement any of these interventions.
• 29:55
  Tammi Van Hollander: And if you can't buy all the books and you want to preview the books, many of the books are available on YouTube.
• 30:02
  Tammi Van Hollander: And you could look at it on YouTube and especially if you're doing telehealth and be able to read it to them.
• 30:08
  Tammi Van Hollander: But I am very supportive of, it's different than holding the book and having that therapeutic library.
• 30:15
  Tammi Van Hollander: But it is expensive and it is hard to buy all of the books.
• 30:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: So there are many different creative ways that you can still be able to use this as a resource.
• 30:27
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah, that's a great idea.
• 30:30
  Cathi Spooner: I forgot about that, that, uh, they're on YouTube.
• 30:33
  Cathi Spooner: So that's a really great way to, like you said, kind of preview it and see, but also I think teletherapy is kind of here to stay, which is nice in, in a lot of ways.
• 30:48
  Cathi Spooner: You know, it's got its pros and cons to it.
• 30:50
  Cathi Spooner: And if you're using it, being able to do bibliotherapy on your, um, teletherapy using YouTube in a way that brings the book a little bit more to life, and adds that connection.
• 31:07
  Cathi Spooner: That's a great idea.
• 31:10
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 31:13
  Tammi Van Hollander: So yes, I mean, I, you know, I am so I have to talk one more time about this book because I am beyond honored of the contributors.
• 31:22
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, there's over 100 interventions close to 60 contributors of all of our play therapy people.
• 31:30
  Tammi Van Hollander: You know, we have Jody Mullen, Robert Jason Grant, Paris Goodyear Brown, Jess Stone, Clara Melantine.
• 31:38
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, like, I mean, we have, I mean, yeah, I mean, everybody, I just, everybody who is in here and, and basically the contributors who came in here, um, Dana Weiss, who did the Invisible String, uh, workbook.
• 31:54
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, I have that one.
• 31:56
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah, so all the contributors that are in here, basically, some are, um, authors like Dora Henderson's book and Jackie Flynn's book.
• 32:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: So a lot of them and some books, uh, Brown's books are in here, but they're, um, really what they were asked for this book is what are their favorite books?
• 32:16
  Tammi Van Hollander: And what are the interventions they've been using for years?
• 32:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: And that's what makes it so special.
• 32:20
  Tammi Van Hollander: I mean, I read these interventions and they've just been wonderful.
• 32:24
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I've been, you know, just using so many of their own interventions.
• 32:28
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I'm just so a Leanna Lowenstein.
• 32:31
  Tammi Van Hollander: So, I mean, just.
• 32:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: I could go on and on, but, uh, so I'm just so proud of it and so grateful for Pesce for publishing this book and the, the contributors of this book and just, just making it happen.
• 32:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I just hope it's a wonderful resource.
• 32:50
  Cathi Spooner: Well, you know, I think, um, I think it's going to be a really much needed resource for people's libraries because like you, a lot of, you know, cause we, we both do a lot of supervising and people are always asking, you know, what's a good book for this?
• 33:06
  Cathi Spooner: Or how can I help my client with this?
• 33:09
  Cathi Spooner: Do you have any book recommendations?
• 33:12
  Cathi Spooner: So I think it's going to be an awesome resource.
• 33:15
  Cathi Spooner: And there are, there are a lot of really good, um, contributors in there that have pretty knowledgeable and sharing that wealth of information and their experiences.
• 33:27
  Cathi Spooner: And don't we all just have our favorites that we like to use and share with others?
• 33:35
  Tammi Van Hollander: Absolutely.
• 33:36
  Tammi Van Hollander: That's so funny because right when I got, I got the book, I guess last week and Monday was my supervision day and I had super, I was doing supervision all day and I have my supervision groups and then my individual supervision.
• 33:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: I love supervision.
• 33:49
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I literally through every single one, I like had my book out and I was looking, I'm like, okay, this is for that.
• 33:55
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I used it through every supervision because it just, you know, It was such a good resource for me to go back and to have it on one spot.
• 34:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: Because although people ask me, I mean, I forget, I can't remember all the different.
• 34:09
  Cathi Spooner: Oh, I know.
• 34:09
  Cathi Spooner: Right.
• 34:10
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 34:10
  Tammi Van Hollander: So, um, Lynn Louise Wonders.
• 34:13
  Tammi Van Hollander: So, yeah, so many people.
• 34:14
  Tammi Van Hollander: Jen Taylor.
• 34:15
  Tammi Van Hollander: I could keep going.
• 34:16
  Tammi Van Hollander: But anyway, uh, so I I am very excited about that.
• 34:22
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I think I am so excited about it because it is such a story.
• 34:28
  Tammi Van Hollander: It's, it's, it's such a connection based book as well.
• 34:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: And that's really what I want in my, um, we, we have a family member who was reading it for her great, great grandchild and started reading it and She made a joke.
• 34:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: She's like, I got so frustrated.
• 34:49
  Tammi Van Hollander: They were crying.
• 34:50
  Tammi Van Hollander: I didn't know what to do.
• 34:51
  Tammi Van Hollander: She's like, but I read the book and I think it saved a life.
• 34:55
  Cathi Spooner: Awesome.
• 34:56
  Cathi Spooner: What a great thing.
• 34:57
  Tammi Van Hollander: Just like the little tiny things that it is not a clinical test.
• 35:01
  Tammi Van Hollander: It is just little small things that we can recognize, right.
• 35:06
  Tammi Van Hollander: To recognize, you know, there is that, a small neuroscience piece.
• 35:09
  Tammi Van Hollander: There are these different pieces of how important it is when we create these safe spaces and when we create this attunement and how, how we can find these spaces for children to heal.
• 35:24
  Tammi Van Hollander: Because they're not going to heal if it's, if it's not a safe space and, and, and it's, it's our own presence that, that creates that as the entire environment of our, our playrooms, uh, that, that is so important to the work that we do.
• 35:41
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 35:42
  Cathi Spooner: And I, I, you know, I, I think you and I are both kind of the same about the whole attachment and the impact that has, because I feel like, like one of the things that I tell new play therapists all the time that I, that I work with, we're all learning, like this takes, we're always, and if you're a play therapist, you're probably always learning, right?
• 36:07
  Cathi Spooner: And especially in the beginning when you feel like you're not sure what those skills are and you're not sure how to apply them perfectly all the time, just that therapeutic relationship that in and of itself can create that healing space for children to begin to reset and look at things different way and change the beliefs they have about themselves.
• 36:34
  Cathi Spooner: So just even adding some of these resources that you're talking about in terms of books, just having that time where you create that space that's safe and connected where they feel seen and heard and you can use story in that process that in and of itself if you know we always say in play therapy and when I was learning a long time ago it used to irritate me when people say trust the process like I don't know what that means but then I was like okay fine I'm going to trust the process And for me, that means just lean into being fully present and attuned.
• 37:15
  Tammi Van Hollander: Right.
• 37:17
  Cathi Spooner: The rest will come.
• 37:19
  Cathi Spooner: And being able to have that way of integrating story in there gives it for, I think even I, you know, for experienced all levels, I think all levels.
• 37:31
  Cathi Spooner: Um, can use that, um, uh, that resource of what can I do?
• 37:40
  Cathi Spooner: Like we're always looking for things.
• 37:42
  Cathi Spooner: I don't care how experienced you are.
• 37:44
  Cathi Spooner: We're always trying to figure out what
• 37:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: We're all trying to find tools.
• 37:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: I think a really important other piece is, you know, for kind of looking at a little bit through a client center lens is that of reading a book that you know, any of the books, the child may go into the playroom and just play out something from the book and without even any of these problems.
• 38:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: That you may, as we all know, I, I actually have a poem in the very first, um, the, the first page here that I wrote it on my trainings and one of it is we have no agenda and we quiet their fear without that agenda.
• 38:20
  Tammi Van Hollander: So we may have an agenda of, this intervention's gonna be perfect for this child, right.
• 38:26
  Tammi Van Hollander: , this is gonna be great.
• 38:27
  Tammi Van Hollander: And, and they're gonna go and they're gonna do what they do and do their work.
• 38:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: And it is gonna be beyond powerful.
• 38:37
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yes.
• 38:37
  Tammi Van Hollander: So although we may start with the book and we may have that for one child, they're like.
• 38:42
  Tammi Van Hollander: Right.
• 38:43
  Tammi Van Hollander: And especially when we have kids who have anxiety, they do put it in the top down.
• 38:47
  Tammi Van Hollander: They want the tools.
• 38:49
  Tammi Van Hollander: They are ready to work.
• 38:50
  Tammi Van Hollander: They're perfectionists.
• 38:52
  Tammi Van Hollander: They want to teach you, they want to do all of those pieces.
• 38:56
  Tammi Van Hollander: But you know, so it's really looking at it.
• 38:58
  Tammi Van Hollander: So even if we have it, if we do trust the process and the child picks a book or we even pick it and they're reading it and we know these, this child loves books and then we're bringing it, they're, It's in their body now, so they they've already embodied it.
• 39:15
  Tammi Van Hollander: So then when they go into the play room, what are those?
• 39:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: And we actually there's a whole embodiment pieces.
• 39:22
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah, he's all within the book as well.
• 39:26
  Tammi Van Hollander: So really, how are we able to trust the child of wherever they lead us to and never get stuck on.
• 39:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: We may get excited.
• 39:34
  Tammi Van Hollander: We may be like, Oh my God, this is exciting.
• 39:36
  Tammi Van Hollander: This, this is awesome.
• 39:38
  Tammi Van Hollander: I'm not like talking down on my book, but we also have to be like, Oh, like kids.
• 39:44
  Tammi Van Hollander: We know like they are the best stuff and when we trust that and know that we believe that it's like that's where the magic happens.
• 39:53
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah for sure So, um, how can people get your book?
• 39:59
  Cathi Spooner: What's a what's a good way to do that?
• 40:02
  Cathi Spooner: Do you want to I don't know if you want to show the book again, so people have the right title and I think my It's called the Bibliotherapy Toolbox,
• 40:12
  Tammi Van Hollander: and then it's a 100 plus creative and playful story based interventions to help kids create safety, overcome challenges and build resiliency.
• 40:23
  Tammi Van Hollander: I even have a little sand tray.
• 40:25
  Tammi Van Hollander: I love that's right there.
• 40:28
  Tammi Van Hollander: And, um, yeah, I mean, so You can get it on Pessy.
• 40:32
  Tammi Van Hollander: You can get it on Amazon.
• 40:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: You could get it at the self esteem shop.
• 40:36
  Tammi Van Hollander: Um, any, any of those places, but you can all find me at, um, and maybe you could put some of the links below.
• 40:46
  Tammi Van Hollander: Um, we're going
• 40:48
  Cathi Spooner: to post those in the comments, my virtual assistant.
• 40:51
  Cathi Spooner: So any of you watching or watching the live stream, uh, we'll put the comments.
• 40:58
  Cathi Spooner: I mean, we'll put the links in the comments as well.
• 41:01
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah.
• 41:02
  Tammi Van Hollander: So, I mean, I'm mainline play therapy and then I have my Tammy van Hollander Instagram page and, um, Tammy's new play therapy and sand tray therapy page.
• 41:12
  Tammi Van Hollander: Cause I got hacked and can't get to my, they see it, but if anybody, so that, that, that was a bit of a mess.
• 41:19
  Tammi Van Hollander: So we have all of that.
• 41:21
  Tammi Van Hollander: If you subscribe to my newsletter and in September 27th, I'm going to be keynoting at the very first Las Vegas play therapy symposium with Marshall Lyles, Jody Mullen, Robert Jason Grant.
• 41:38
  Tammi Van Hollander: I've never been to Vegas, so I'm super excited about that.
• 41:41
  Cathi Spooner: Well, and at the end of September too, so it won't be swelteringly hot.
• 41:47
  Cathi Spooner: It'll still be warm.
• 41:50
  Cathi Spooner: Okay.
• 41:50
  Cathi Spooner: Yeah.
• 41:51
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I'm excited for that.
• 41:53
  Tammi Van Hollander: I have in April, it has not specifically been out, but I am going to be doing a five day sand tray retreat, which has been my dream.
• 42:03
  Tammi Van Hollander: Wow.
• 42:04
  Tammi Van Hollander: Pessy.
• 42:05
  Tammi Van Hollander: I did the five day play therapy retreat and I have been begging for five days of sand tray.
• 42:10
  Tammi Van Hollander: So that is nice.
• 42:11
  Tammi Van Hollander: beautiful and amazing.
• 42:14
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I do online sand tray trainings.
• 42:18
  Tammi Van Hollander: It's been hard during the summer.
• 42:20
  Tammi Van Hollander: I need to kind of figure out what it is, but they're 12 hours and they're normally Thursday and Friday with RPT credits.
• 42:26
  Tammi Van Hollander: And I love to do, you know, I love to do play therapy supervision like you, Cathi.
• 42:31
  Tammi Van Hollander: It's one of my favorite things.
• 42:33
  Tammi Van Hollander: So I stay busy and um, you know, I, I, I love this work and just so, so grateful to be doing what I do.
• 42:42
  Cathi Spooner: Well, thank you for being on the, a guest today and also sharing the information about your book.
• 42:50
  Cathi Spooner: Any of you who are interested in working with Tammy or, or attending any of her trainings, um, feel free to go over to her website, check those out, check out the links that she, um, has provided.
• 43:05
  Cathi Spooner: And I think Bryll is, yep, Bryll is posting those now as we speak and in the comments below.
• 43:13
  Cathi Spooner: So thank you so much.
• 43:16
  Tammi Van Hollander: Yeah.
• 43:19
  Cathi Spooner: So if you guys found this information helpful, please feel free to like it and share it on your social media platforms.
• 43:26
  Cathi Spooner: And if you're listening on the podcast, I would love to have you write a review, give some feedback.
• 43:34
  Cathi Spooner: It's always nice to make sure that we are meeting needs in the play therapy community and supporting what I always say, supporting the next generation of play therapist to make a deep and lasting impact in the lives of children and families.
• 43:49
  Cathi Spooner: So we thank you for all that you do.
• 43:53
  Cathi Spooner: Alrighty.
• 43:54
  Cathi Spooner: Bye.
• 43:55
  Cathi Spooner: Bye for now.
• 43:56
  Cathi Spooner: Bye everyone.
• 44:05
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy.
• 44:09
  Cathi Spooner: I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal.
• 44:18
  Cathi Spooner: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review.
• 44:24
  Cathi Spooner: Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information.
• 44:30
  Cathi Spooner: Remember, play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth.
• 44:34
  Cathi Spooner: Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work and relationships.
• 44:46
  Cathi Spooner: If you have any questions or topic suggestions for future episodes, I'd love to hear from you.
• 44:53
  Cathi Spooner: Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources.
• 45:05
  Cathi Spooner: Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy.
• 45:09
  Cathi Spooner: Until next time, keep playing, learning, and growing.