Latest / Syllabus / Summer House Scandal: West, Amanda, Disloyalty & Discourse

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Summer House Scandal: West, Amanda, Disloyalty & Discourse · Syllabus

• Ashby: and occasionally getting lost in a tangent. If you too can't help but think a little too deeply about books movies and more you come across you're in the right place. Coco: Welcome to Syllabus, the podcast hosted by two recovering straight-A millennials, Ashby and Coco, We are so glad you're here. Ashby: Let's get into it. Coco: who live to overanalyze the media and culture we encounter ⁓ while shedding the gold star culture that made us, Ashby: Happy Easter. Is this a big time for your people, for the Catholics? This is when they really go off. ⁓ Coco: That's why I'm singing the zombie song, because he came back from the dead. ⁓ we got woke pope. ⁓ stay woke. Not as woke as the last one, but still he opened with like, As-salamu alaykum ⁓ for a mass. kind of like I get being against all wars. Ashby: ⁓ Coco: And also we have to say like big asterisks anytime you're praising the Catholic Church. ⁓ They have so many crimes. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, sort of the original crime doers. Some of our oldest, honestly, some of our oldest most treasured crime Coco: Yeah, like a lot of, you know, imperialism and genocide. Oh my god. Ashby: Okay, so we're back. again. ⁓ Sort of like sort of like Jesus, if you will. Coco: Yes. ⁓ Ashby. Yes, we are recording this on Easter Sunday and what a week it's been. What a week it's been. My brain has been fully hijacked by a summer house discourse. I'm not well. Carl's a mess and I'm a mess. I don't want to know what my screen time has been. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Same. Yeah. Coco: I I understand that maybe we're recording this at a point where we're like, maybe everything's been said. Maybe we've had enough takes. Ashby: Yeah, I've listened to 3,700 podcast episodes, many podcasts I've never heard of, interesting take, interesting take. ⁓ Coco: I do feel like I cursed us because we recorded this whole episode about the trajectory and the arc of Kyle and Amanda's relationship and the patterns that were exhibited for years and years. And we stopped recording and I did say, Ashby, there's also this other rumor, but I don't think it's true. And it was like from that moment on a Sunday, from then, it's it's like a wildfire. It just went, it just went. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think I'm on record saying I didn't think it was true either, even as just an outside observer, just because I watch other types of reality shows and it just had all the hallmarks of manufactured promotional drama mess. But you know, if you're on a show like this for 10 years of your life, you know, Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: Then ⁓ I if mentally for you the lines get blurred ⁓ about stuff. Coco: Okay. let's start there because I just explaining this to a friend who doesn't know, doesn't watch Summer House. they were like, ⁓ they were like, people, my clients, my at work are talking about this, help me understand what's happening. I can't like keep going to work and not knowing what's going on. ⁓ And we kind of started there. Ashby: Yeah. Coco: And will say, ⁓ I actually don't think it's weird in a friend group that's a little bit younger, although, you know, Amanda Batula is 34, West is, I think, 31. I actually don't think it's weird if you're in a friend group, people break up, other people get together. That's kind of how communities work. Big friend groups exist. It's not strange to me, ⁓ but it's the reality TV show of it all is why it's bad and it's the racial dynamics. ⁓ and it's what's airing now versus what news is happening now that's creating a real juxtaposition. ⁓ I'm curious to hear kind of just like in general, like where you are. I feel like I've gone through several phases and I'm glad we've waited until now to record because I think like I feel kind of settled with how I stand and how I feel. Ashby: Yeah, think, I, again, it just really, the whole thing initially just felt very false to me, but I'm not as steeped in this space. So I wasn't as, I'm very skeptical. I still, I would still say that I'm like 20 % skeptical. Coco: Yeah. you're holding out beyond the rest of us. Ashby: little tiny bit. It just, I don't know to me, but again, I'm not steeped in this. I don't know these people. I don't know how they like typically communicate, Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: I think it was just fact that the statement that they released was ⁓ worded so weird, like an alien bot wrote ⁓ I just, it just hit me as really and like it was almost saying nothing. I'm not saying that ⁓ I'm like holding out hope necessarily, but I feel like Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: the confirmation that we have is not as transparent as a lot of people think. Coco: I don't, mean, ⁓ hope, so I, okay, taking a step back, ⁓ I was holding hope that it was a Buffalo Wild Wings conspiracy. ⁓ It's so many thought that, but really once they released the statement, I was like, no, no, it's officially confirmed. And they think the statement is wishy washy, the statement is bad. ⁓ Ashby: I know, I have also seen this angle. Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean, yeah. Coco: but it's because they don't have anything real to confirm. They're not a couple. You know, it's not to say like, we're in love. It's like, we've been fucking around. Like, I think that's kind of what the statement is. And I do think it's, you know, in comparison to something like Scandival, right? Like, that was a situation where we, the audience had a very different relationship with that cast, with that show, ⁓ and those people were kind of. Ashby: Mm-hmm, right. Mm-hmm. Coco: thought of this like pretty despicable, like kind of like you watched it because they were ridiculous and outrageous and they weren't like you. ⁓ And so even though, you know, scandal ball happens and people are genuinely like sad for Ariana, and stuff ⁓ was really fucked up. But also it's like there's a Ariana's the hero and it's kind of clean and we can just Ashby: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: hate on Tom and Raquel. And probably we were definitely misogynistic towards Raquel, but I also think people really did hate Tom Sandoval. ⁓ And when that kind of story broke, it was like a little bit giddy, like scandal, gossip, but it's kind of like we're all a little bit like, ⁓ we're like excited by this. This one was so different. You see like a whole community of people being like, I hope it's not true. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: I'm willing to believe the craziest Buffalo Wild Wings conspiracy theory, but this is fake, you know? ⁓ And because they took so long to kind of like confirm that it was true and April Fools was right there. Like I think that it just gave everyone enough hope that this wasn't happening to people that we genuinely have affection for, kind of have much more of like a parasocial relationship with these people. ⁓ And for me, I'm like, it's, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah You're right. Mm-hmm. Coco: it does make you sound crazy, but I'm like, I wanna believe in a world of solidarity. I wanna believe in a world of female friendships. I want the rom-com to end with women being there for each other and who cares about the guy? And I just had this holding out hope that this wasn't the reality that we were living in, but unfortunately, I very much believe that it is true. And I think that... Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: you know, the cast, some of the cast members are cashing in with like Uber Eats partnerships and stuff, but ⁓ they got to get their check because the show, who knows what the future of the show is. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I guess like... I guess it's like I'm cautious about too of a reaction that's proportional to what is actually occurred. Coco: Yeah. Sure. Ashby: we like this show because this is sort of like the nice reality TV. ⁓ You know, this is a different thing. This isn't like, ⁓ we'll expect from these ⁓ gutter people. ⁓ You know, this isn't like that. Coco: I mean, yeah, like Tom Sandoval is not, is a narcissist, you know, he's... Ashby: Mm-hmm That one was more like validation for what we've suspected all along. Yeah, yeah, it was titillating. Coco: Yes, yes, yes. And that one was also even like, it sucked, but it was also like Ariana kind of got into the relationship that way. Like, yes. So, yeah. Ashby: Yeah, well, that's, that's what a lot of the podcasts have said. Yeah. But it's also the, in that one, I think the transgression is a lot more clear. I think what is happening is the, outcry reaction, whatever is a little bit attenuated by two things by like, these are not people we love to hate. And then two, what actually happened is a little bit unclear. So Coco: Mm-hmm. Right. Ashby: It's not like, no one, I don't think anyone should feel like totally bought in to the same like tenor of reaction as the Scandival thing, which was so crazy because of the like duration of it, how like the diabolical nature of it. Yeah, yeah. Right. It's kind of this. Coco: Yes, a clear-cut affair, an affair. This is not an affair, you know what I mean? you know, not in that traditional... Ashby: Yeah, but it is, at the very least, is a social faux pas. And I think, obviously, at bottom here is like, like you said, these characters have to get their bag. And so the fact that Amanda has lost brand deals over this is a bigger confirmation to me by not coming out and trying to defend herself or anything like that. It's like a bigger confirmation to me than the actual. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: statement or the rumors and stuff like that. Coco: I think that they've all confirmed that something is going on or has gone on. And I should clarify. I just said, it's not an affair, but like, maybe it was. ⁓ We don't know yet. Yeah. And there's different layers to how that, what that means for a person like Ciara. Yeah. I just want to start out by saying like, Ashby: What we don't know is the thing is we don't actually know. And so that's, yeah. for everything, for everything, so. Coco: totally agree that I think that are moments like this ⁓ and a pattern in Bravo that like if a woman messes up in any way that the misogyny is always there. And there's like sometimes the way that people are speaking about Amanda is like as if has been this kind of conniving manipulative like. secretly a different person all along in front of our eyes that really plays into misogynistic stereotypes. And I think that is really horrible. And I, the reason why we recorded our episode about Kyle and Amanda is to like talk about like, this is a relationship that has been right in front of us this whole time. This man is horrible to his wife. And I see Amanda as someone, and this is all conjecture, this is all opinion, but it's like, I see Amanda as someone who's Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: Ben exited an abusive situation who has spoken many times about her low self-esteem, about her mental health issues. And this is like a less stable environment than being like in a marriage. Like, you know, this is kind of like out there in the world on your own. And I feel for her as someone who, like, if you have a friend that you're watching make bad choices, kind of do some self-destructive behavior, I feel for her. I'm, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: mad at her in the sense that I'm like, you fucked up, we were rooting for you. Like, that's the feeling that I have. And I think we have to have space to talk about, like, what are the implications? Why is this such a rich text? Why are people kind of spiraling and obsessing about it without ever getting into misogyny? Like, I think we can talk about these layers of, like, whiteness and female friendship and all of that ⁓ without ever going to that darker place. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, I agree. Yeah. Coco: ⁓ There's a lot of negative stuff in Discourse, of course, but there also ⁓ a, I think, very clear, like, immediate for Ciara. ⁓ And I think that that is a testament her entirely because she is... ⁓ She has helped explain in a previous season in this most recent season. Ashby: Yeah. Coco: what is like being a black person on reality TV? She has educated her cast mates and she has educated the audience. ⁓ And so I think when this happened, if you're just talking to someone who doesn't know anything, you're like, well, actually, okay, these two, these are like two single people that got together. Like who cares? She dated him two years ago. And I think she has helped us understand and process this moment in advance ⁓ because she's talked about, you know, what it is like to date, ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: especially white men on reality TV, the racism that she receives because of that and in general, as well as the types of behavior that she feels comfortable exhibiting on a reality TV show and how there's a very different standard for her white castmates versus her or other black castmates on the show. like, also just like, the more I think about it, you know, We are also watching a season in which one of the arcs of the season is Ciara and West. They dated two years ago. Then he basically broke up with her so he could fuck fans, which he talked about in the thing. Yep. And then last season was kind of like he was trying to get into her good graces again, And so we have also seen maybe this is like this this like kind of bumbling white boy who's young and he's like kind of learned his lesson and he's grown. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's very clear. Yep. Coco: ⁓ boy. And now what we're seeing in this season is like, are they rekindling things? It's like we thought we were watching a rom-com that included West and Ciara as protagonists, we were kind of rooting for them. He literally in an episode describes dating her as being dreamy and kind of longing to get it back, like one of the episodes from this season. And so to me, it's like, I don't actually, you know, we don't know what Ciara thinks. It's just ⁓ as viewer of the viewer of this television show. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: You know, I could imagine if it was me, it would be humiliating to be like, these episodes are airing and the audience is rooting for us to get together. I thought this was like somebody trying to get back with me in a serious way. And then this other thing happens and it's all happening at the same exact time. I know we talked about it in the previous episode that we recorded, but like Ciara just exhibits like a level of groundedness and like things seriously. Like she, Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. Coco: in the most recent episode just talked about purchasing her grandparents home because it was like the stable place that represented, you know, in her childhood, it was like the stable place she had and she bought that home in North Carolina and she's renovating it and she wants it to be within her family forever. And it's just like, that's the, that's a level of like a person who kind of takes their life seriously, takes things seriously. And so. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: when other people act in this flippant way, you know her from watching her for five years you kind of, you you don't know her, but you what she has shared with us. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: I think there's also like an element of people being like, ⁓ my God, you did it to the best person. Like, what the fuck? Ashby: I know, yeah. Yes, like, okay, I think what it is is if you're, a person that casually drops in or out of watching quote unquote reality TV, you have kind of a bias that a little bit of it is played up or for show or for promo, right? But you're right that Ciara is so different from this traditional mold of a reality star ⁓ and Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Ashby: She is like a real person who's on reality TV. that's, that's what people really like about her, but it makes it hard. In some ways it would be easier to like fake things and to try to like create a storyline. But she said that that's like, she's not gonna be doing a produced storyline. She's just gonna be herself in these scenarios. Coco: Yeah. And she brings all that to the table. Ashby: ⁓ And but has like made a point to be like, no, I'm actually being like my honest actual self. And she's not like in the reality TV mold, right? Like she's like a nurse. she wasn't like, a brand influencer or whatever before, And she's been like honest about her feelings. And ⁓ you're right though, that not that, but she has real life impacts that impact her differently than they affect other people. So even if she did to be kind of like, that's fine. producers, what's the arc this season that I'm playing into? She is going to get real racism though. She's going to experience real racism and real backlash and like real prejudice. No matter, no matter if she's being her authentic self or if she were playing something up for the cameras. And I think we can't like discount that, you know? Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Summerhouse has this pattern of like something crazy happens, they do pick cameras back up and then they include it in the season. And so that happened when Carl dumped Lindsay on camera and called off their wedding. Ashby: Mm-hmm. I have so much thoughts about that. Coco: Like today I saw that Lizzie and Carl recorded on a couch together in Uber Eats partnership and I was like, like a little part of my brain was like, okay, if we can get through that, we can probably get through anything. But so I do say a lot of positive things about Carl and I'm a Carl defender and I think Carl is a solid person and he did need to cutting off that relationship was the healthiest thing for both of them and they're both way happier now. And at the same time, I'm like, he did dump someone on camera. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: But I do appreciate that. is a segment of the fan community that's like, pick cameras back up. ⁓ they're not doing it. ⁓ I'm like, I actually ⁓ want them to pick cameras back up. I need to see Amanda mentally deteriorate in front of us. ⁓ And don't Ciara to have to put her tears for whatever reason on camera for me. I actually think we have plenty. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because I don't want to like watch her suffer. No. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: Well, I do need to know one part of the timeline, but like, I don't need to know like when did West and Amanda like hook up in the winter or like, you know, early spring. Like, I don't need all of those details, et cetera. But I got distracted because I was thinking like there is I now I'm of the belief that it started in June of 2025 at least. So I've been radicalized on the Internet. Ashby: Yeah June, you heard it here first guys, June of 2025, truthers. Coco: And this is the closest I've probably ever felt to QAnon, But ⁓ yes, I don't need to see, the reunion is plenty. They will be there, they film, they will have it out. And that's plenty me. I do not need anyone in their worst moments of their life to be ⁓ filmed. ⁓ And just going back to like the reality-ness or fakeness of all of this, Ashby: Amazing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Coco: If this was not real to some extent, life-ruining. Like this is real fuck up. Ashby: Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. Is that that's the bigger evidence to me than any of the other stuff. But I do want to take one second to talk about like another layer here of the like reality fakeness or whatever. ⁓ I know if Amanda and Ciara are real friends or if they are pretty good on screen coworker friends. I kind of think it doesn't matter. Like, again, again, you're running in the same circles and Coco: Yes. ⁓ please. Yeah. I don't think it matters. Ashby: especially if a person has just opened up about how a relationship with this person on screen was painful to them personally and also has these this racist element of like backlash that they're getting. I think for me, I think that's enough to be like in order to be respectful to this person, I would not get involved with that person. Like just I think that would be enough no matter how close Amanda and Ciara are. Coco: Mm-hmm. Great! Ashby: to just kind of be like, that feels a little disrespectful no matter what level of closeness they have. ⁓ Coco: That's another layer that I really do appreciate. I will include them in the sub stacks. So many of the great podcasts and like Instagram videos or TikTok videos, ⁓ of black women explaining what represents to them, what they're seeing in the experience. And so whether they're real friends they're like kind of coworkers, ⁓ know, what we have witnessed for is mean, Ciara go to Amanda and kind of be like, you deserve better than what this treatment that you're getting from your husband. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: And what we're witnessing in this season that's airing now is because Paige is gone, Amanda leaning on Ciara over and over again. And Ciara being the actual voice who says like, maybe you should separate even if it's temporary, because like this too volatile and bad. ⁓ And you you'll see Amanda talking to Ciara about her experience and Ciara will cry like. Ashby: Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Coco: what it's not like fake reality TV crying. It's like the subtle crying where you know, you're like, that's a person just feeling for the person to cross from them and like what they're going through. And, you know, I've been educated by a lot of these creators online who said like, yes, this is actually a pattern though. Like when black women are in friendship with white women that, you know, the white women can lean on the black person and then like kind of treat them as disposable or not treat them as seriously. And I think that it's Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: That's also like what happens amongst these exact people is sometimes important, but also what are the patterns that people see in it is also important or more important. Ashby: Yeah, yeah, that's the thing is that, gosh, I don't know, I think what Ciara has expressed is that castmates should take it as an opportunity for them to ⁓ enforce. respectful. I'm not trying to infantilize anyone, but I almost want to say like protective boundaries around their fellow cast members. Yes, yeah, yeah. I think that's an opportunity for them to think through things from a different perspective of not just like what do I want right now? What looks good for my edit? But she's shared something that is enough that I think people should kind of think about. How will this type of situation look for them? Coco: like, kind of like what allyship should mean almost. Ashby: and how am I helping to contribute or not contribute to that? ⁓ And yeah, I mean, there's a way to look at this that's like, Ciara is being exploited for emotional labor for this woman who then doesn't return the same like deep level of support or friendship because she's messing around with the person that ⁓ caused so much of this pain and vulnerability for Ciara. Coco: Yep. Ashby: There's a little bit, think, responsibility for Amanda to kind of think through. I maybe should have known better about how this affects more than just me. like I said, Amanda and Ciara seem like they have a real friendship, you know? And in any case, Amanda's getting real support on screen for her real life marriage. Coco: That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: So we're all seeing that, right? And the is ⁓ friendship essentially helped launch Team Amanda. ⁓ It's Ciara is sort of the mouthpiece of the audience in this case. She's like the audience surrogate. And that really like boosted Amanda's real life in the sense that she did choose to get divorced and she was getting the real like Summer of Amanda edit. ⁓ and she was getting all these brand partnerships and stuff like that. like, yo. Coco: She's getting interviews and where now you reread those interviews, they don't age well because it seems like she's dropping weird little crumbs about her and West in them. Whether that's true or not, it kind of hard for me to not believe it. But it's weird. Yeah, it's weird behavior. Ashby: No they don't. Yeah and so... Ugh. So like that fucking sucks. It's like Amanda has like materially benefited from Ciara's support, no matter how close or not close they are. Coco: Yes. Ashby: Then you have Wes. ⁓ Coco: And, wait, do, West also benefits from being his proximity to Ciara. Ciara gave him the hot girl stamp of like, yeah, I will fuck with you. Ashby: ⁓ there's a very cynical way to view it that Ciara boost West brand. Coco: Yeah. That's what I think. Ashby: And then ⁓ breaking up with Ciara tanked Wes Brand. So now on the season, Wes has to act like he actually likes Ciara and he's in inauthentically putting on a little show for everyone, playing with her real feelings, but for his own personal brand benefit. And then to have the confirmation for all of us, all the people who were shipping them, you know, or honestly all the people who were sort of rooting for one guy to be better. Then, yeah, just one guy to actually like be better, you know, now all of that looks so hollow because there's no way any of that could be true if he is also pursued Amanda in any way. Like also he's been in this house for the last like several years witnessing this marriage. Just the level of betrayal there to just even get involved in that, you know, Coco: That's what we were rooting for. Ashby: Ciara notwithstanding, I just feel like that part. Coco: Well, yes, Ciara notwithstanding, he is actively caring for both Amanda and Kyle during this season. like he litters a scene where he like, people made memes out of it where he like feeds Kyle a drink and then he has a sandwich out and takes a bite of it. ⁓ Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: in most recent incident between Kyle and Amanda, he intervenes in the moment, he checks in on her. And then in the most recent episode that aired, he goes and talks to Kyle again. It has like a very like kind of man to man, like this behavior is not okay. And this is the standard that you should have. And he's made comments about how Kyle bought Amanda a really expensive birthday gift. And West is like, that's actually usually a bad sign when someone gives someone like an over the top gift. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: which was a correct read. ⁓ And he's just done these and he kind of, you know, has called Kyle a baby and he's actually said, like, do you get their relationship on camera? All of that, when you're watching it without the scandal, that looks like such model behavior. When you watch it now, it's really hard to parse the layers of and we will learn more over time, but it's really hard to get a read on like this person's motivations or kind of who they really are. Ashby: Mm-hmm. I know. Yes. Yeah, it really casts all of that in a really different light. it looks like he's incredibly careless with other people. This guy is allegedly supposed to know about brands, right? That's like his sort of alleged job content guy. What does he work at? Complex and stuff like that. Yes, I've seen that. Coco: Yeah, complex, which is also kind of like a more black leaning. Yeah. And that's kind of benefiting from the coolness factor or whatever. Ashby: Yeah, like, ⁓ my God, he had to have known that any link to them publicly would absolutely tank her brand. And if he didn't know that, then he's an idiot. OK, and he's actually not smart and good at brands. I would say that's not the actions of good friend. I know they're saying that this connection grew out of friendship or whatever, but like I can't believe I sound like I'm kind of defending Kyle right now, but like, I think he made an interesting point when he was like, clearly Amanda's in a vulnerable place right now. It does feel like that's a little bit of an exploitative move to even entertain this. ⁓ Coco: think you're not looking out for, like, is a disastrous public relations nightmare. Ashby: Yeah. Disaster. Bad for his brand, but also very bad for her brand. So like even if, even if you sort of are like, I don't care, I like this person so much. I don't care what it does to my, you know, arc on the show or whatever. You don't act on that because you're like, but she's in a vulnerable real life situation coming out of a divorce. And two, this would be very bad, like painful for everyone and like monetarily for her too. Coco: Yes. Yeah. That's that's like, when I say like looking at Amanda, it's like when you're watching someone that you do like make self-destructive choices and you can say that and you can be like, I have empathy for you as a person who has made self-destructive choices and in bad places, but yeah. Ashby: Like that, that's the thing. Mm-hmm. I but it's... I agree, I agree. But I just like, I think there's a tendency to be like all the time to be like, well, men, who cares? know, like no one expects anything of them. But we have a tendency to be like women should always know better, not just for themselves, but they should also read the emotional dynamics of a situation and they should absolutely be like looking out for their female friends. But not a single person is like, Wes should be... Coco: Yes. Ashby: absolutely intuiting this isn't just about him and who he wants to make out with. This is also going to affect Amanda and her like financial opportunities out of a messy divorce, as well as like the rest of the cast. And so there's not, there doesn't seem to be as much of an emphasis on, on him having some type of emotional awareness of this situation. Coco: ⁓ and it's really, ⁓ it was what was upsetting during Me Too when you'd see the more like kind of men who had branded themselves as feminists be creepy towards women and have those stories out. And this is almost like a man who has branded himself with like. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes. Coco: boyfriend energy. That's the way he acts. That's the way he treats. said he likes women, as in the sense that he talks to them like real people. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: And then you're like, ⁓ my God, this is a fuck boy in a different clothing or something. Like, that's the impression that I have. Ashby: Mm-hmm. But also like a little bit, how can the world be tricked by him when Ciara said that he's a fuck boy? Like, hurry. Coco: And Dara, who used to date him, said this as well. Yeah. Ashby: It's like, guys, what was the whole thing? Believe women? Coco: Well, I mean, even he's this is this is the funniest part of the summer house scandal is that anyone who hasn't watched the show is always just like this guy. And then you're like, if Ashby: This fucking guy, dude? It's just, for me, it's hard not to see this on a spectrum of something darker, which is just that even when men hurt women in a way that is not even super high stakes or whatever, just emotionally, even when men hurt women emotionally, no one believes you and no one will ever do anything about it. He will just continue on and he will continue to be famous. And honestly, he's Coco: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ashby: Like Kyle said, he's got somehow he's gotten more followers while Amanda has shed tons. Coco: But that was funny that that's what kind of focused on in that video. Ashby: But also, Kyle, why do you know that? And also, Kyle, you're saying to the camera, God, I can't believe an adulterer would essentially, God, who would support such behavior? And it's like, Kyle, Kyle, look in the mirror. Coco: You slept in the fan's apartment. And I'm sorry, the way that you just said Kyle is basically how Amanda says it. Like, Kyle, Kyle. ⁓ Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. Well, how else can you, okay? When a person's whole vibe is exasperation to you, like how else do you pronounce it? Coco: Yes, Kyle will trick you. the thing about Kyle is Kyle sometimes says the right thing. Kyle has shown up well in the conversations on Bravo about race. Kind of like above the, I would say the bars here, like he's kind of quite above the bar and the way he acts in those interactions. ⁓ And also at the same time, Kyle can have empathy for other people in external ways. And it seems it reads as genuine. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: He does not have empathy in his romantic relationship in a way that is like a fucked up, bad, like dark pattern about husbands and wives. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's kind of like, this is crazy because a little bit the picture that is emerging is that both Kyle and West can respect women as long as they're not romantically connected to them. But the... Coco: Yes. And people have pointed out the similarities between the two. Ashby: But as soon as they are, then they're kind of like invisible to them or they're downgraded. It's almost like they're like, well, if she would deign to hang out with me, she must not be that great. Kyle has really been very out front of like, nobody needs to really focus on me, like, because it's really Ciara whose feelings here are important. Coco: moral ⁓ yeah. Ashby: I think he's done a pretty okay job of like centering Ciara in this conversation. So we'll give him 0.5 points for that. Coco: Yeah. And I think, you know, if anyone should stand up for Amanda, which he kind of has done and said, like, I'm just worried about her, like, be kind, ⁓ because he's her ex-husband. Like, that is the role that he should play. But also, he's out there selling stuff. He is ⁓ pushing that lover boy, you know, and it's so funny. I did purchase it. The proceeds went to charity, at least. Yeah. Ashby: Yeah. Yes. Yes, I saw. I saw he got the Carl Zamesh shirt up ASAP. Yeah, but well, that's good. Yeah. Coco: And Ciara has been posting about like raising money for the Girl Scouts ⁓ who like live in in New York, a specific troop, posted about trans rights, has just been a act and a half. ⁓ Ashby: Yes! Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I agree. ⁓ at first, because I don't the show, I didn't really see the race angle playing into it so much. But like, I listened to a lot of the Black creators too. And yeah, it's really hard with that context, if you're looking at it from that lens, to not see it, to not see, it's really hard to not see how essentially, Ciara has really boosted the stars of West and Amanda and they have materially benefited from her and she has said she is a real person and these are her real relationships ⁓ they have just kind of taken that from her without any kind of like respect for what her feelings might be in this situation. So ⁓ that part Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: And I know, I know you said it, don't necessarily think it's that weird. ⁓ people in a friend group, if they, when you're younger, they break up, they date other people or whatever. Yeah. But Amanda and Kyle were married. I do kind of feel like that's different. And then, so I do think if you've seen a couple who's had a really rough time going through a divorce, I do feel like in a friend group, everyone can have an understanding of we don't mess with either of them. Coco: Yeah, yeah. Ashby: Do you know what I mean? I think there should have been some understanding of that. That part I think is messed up. Yes. Coco: I know. Yeah. Even when Carl and Lindsay broke up, called off their wedding, Carl the next year, like kind of goes to Ciara and makes the best pitch any man has to her. ⁓ But she says, like, I just kind of too respect for Lindsay to do that. Was right there. ⁓ Yeah. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There it is, you know? It's so easy. But like, okay, there's those two things. It's like, they were married, they're going through kind of a messy public divorce. Leave them alone. You look like an opportunist if you get involved in that. And clearly no good can come of it until a person is like in a better headspace from all of this, like even a messing around type thing, no good can come from it. So I think there's like a maturity gap there. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: But then the other thing is like, they're 34-ish? That does seem old enough to be able to, that's enough to at least be able to have a conversation in advance. Like there's no, to me, there's like no excuse to not be like, for both of them to like talk to Kyle and talk to Ciara, but mostly Ciara, and just be like, hey, you know, we've been spending a little time together. Is it, you know, Coco: That's a doll, yeah. I know. Ashby: what would be your feelings if we wanted to explore this or whatever. So, so chicken shit to do that. And it's super immature. And to me, there's no excuse for at least ⁓ reaching out to Ciara in advance and telling her, ⁓ if it was a drunken kiss or something, just like, am so sorry. I didn't think about what was happening, but I want to make sure this doesn't become something bad between us. So, yeah. Coco: Mm-hmm. I know. Yes, yes. There is a world in which Amanda and Wes could have like eventually, like, you know, it just needed to be handled with tact, with respect for this person's dignity. Like, and I think that's the part of it that really like, it just bops around in my brain. I kind of can't get over it. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. And they were there. They were there for the season. They know how the season was filmed. They're watching what we're watching. And so they have to know that being public with this type of thing and pursuing it is going to cast everything in a really rough light. It's going to make it look like West is humiliating Ciara on screen by pretending to be into her just so that he can hide. Coco: Yep. Yes. Yep. Ashby: from either the group or from the viewers that he's actually ⁓ messing around with Amanda if that's what's going on or that he's interested in her. Yeah. ⁓ Coco: do want to talk about like just a moment to like, so, you know, I think the way that what's kind of confirmed is that this is happening in the in the real timeline, not on the show timeline. But when you go back to certain things, especially like this is June stuff that social media posts and this is where it is like the Internet is crazy. But you go back to that stuff. It really seems like they're alluding to that they have had some sort of romantic interaction and that Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: changes what's happening overall. But if you guys, if you and West are doing this ⁓ and while this season was being filmed, level of diabolical is ⁓ pretty unforgivable. That is ⁓ horrible. That is horrible. Ashby: Yeah. Coco: And that's what everyone's watching the season now, through new eyes and questioning these things. Ashby: Now is the season finished or no, they're still putting out new apps? Coco: They're putting out new episodes. So this has to continue to play out for several, a couple of another month or so. Ashby: Cause they're. Cause I have seen some posts of theirs that are really cryptic about the season ⁓ I did see a couple of things that were like, some people were saying that, that, that these two wanted to get caught. That they were like ⁓ so ⁓ Coco: Yeah. Yes, I mean, that's what I... Ashby: in public, like restaurants where people recognize them, fans taking pictures of them together, like sitting on each other in like very public spaces and yeah, yeah. Coco: Ugh. Yeah. Constantly like the way this is such a like this is just also when you're a woman and you watch a woman do this it's sometimes hard but it's like Amanda starts to like dress like West like it's evolved over time and then she wears this like camo hat that's like from a specific brand and He wears the sweatshirt version. It's the same brand ⁓ Then switching their clothes the song choices that they post with like their carousels like people are out there dissecting all this stuff Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I understand they're in the public eye, but like it is possible to fuck around without going to public restaurants and sitting on each other's laps. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so I can't figure out why they would want to get caught at least Amanda has like very much suffered publicly. Coco: They could be hooking up behind closed doors and like who would know? Ashby: like a stretch for this guy. Coco: Well, and there's like a lot of rumors that are like West sleeps around. there's, yeah. Yep. Ashby: He's still sleeping. People have been saying that they have hooked up with him since since even this. So I don't I don't know what on earth could be the angle here. I am not sure. is. Coco: we haven't like talked about this specifically, but just another thing that I think that a lot of these, you know, black women creators have kind of really helped me understand or like see in the situation is this pattern of like men seeing black women as like sexual conquests and that they're fine to like fuck around with, but they're not like the person that you marry or they're not like the person that you treat in a serious relationship. And Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Coco: I know that it's like, much do we feel like, because we don't see this joint statement is not West and Amanda are deeply in love. It's like a situationship or whatever we want to call it. ⁓ But I do think that is layer to it. ⁓ just the way that Ciara has talked about her experiences, which we've already talked about, but at ⁓ point someone does call her a Jezebel, like in the show. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. gonna ask if that was her because I had heard a couple creators mention that and like that is so horrible that is so beyond the pale but yeah in my mind that should also mean that all the men on this show should treat her with more respect and I don't like hearing that it seems like every Coco: Yeah, that's Yeah. Ashby: at least one of the guys who's available shoots his shot with Ciara, but it doesn't seem genuine because it's kind of like they're like, well, you know, she's a fan favorite. There's no way to not see it that way like, how does this benefit them? ⁓ And or she's beautiful and hot. And so they're that would be fun for me to try. ⁓ if she's been very clear that she's not like that, don't approach her. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ashby: Unless you're being serious! Just leave her alone! Yeah. Coco: Exactly. Take her on a date. Like, court her. Treat her seriously. And she said this is how I want to be treated too. Ashby: And under, And understand that it's not just chill. It's not just what's the harm. You're playing into stereotypes that black women are like sexually available and you know, they are some type of conquest for them. Like you're playing into that on screen. So I think the men should have taken this as like, ⁓ Ciara has been clear. She's into like a real relationship. If I'm not. Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Ashby: thinking that I'd be ready for that, then I'm not gonna approach her with this kind of shallow energy of just flirting and maybe we'll get to make out or sleep together. Like that's so disrespectful on so many different levels. Like it is sad because Ciara has said, like, you know, he took her... to meet his parents and then immediately breaks up so that he can fuck with people in his DMs. That's a amount of whiplash for somebody, you know? ⁓ I'm sorry, but it's hard not to see that as ⁓ star rising on screen because of his relationship with Ciara. And then getting, ⁓ you said, hot girl stamp of approval, but also a kind, good person. Coco: Yep. Yep. Ashby: He's able to play off of that also perform boyfriend energy on screen with her He's essentially like doing a little commercial for this is what I'm like ⁓ You know, I'm your dream TV star reality star virtual reality boyfriend and then girls are DMing him and then he's like perfect. Excellent Thank you for that. Thank you for the compound interest on my fame. I will now go cash that in like that's so fucked up and Yeah, especially Coco: Hmm. Yep. Ashby: especially because you get the sense then that he's like, I'd rather fuck around with random people than be in a public committed relationship with a black woman. That is not a good look. And then to do a joint statement with a white woman of like, that's in your friend group, that's her friend being like, I don't know, we just got to see where it goes. Like that's already a level of commitment he didn't show to her. Coco: I know, yeah. Ashby: And that's the part that is so painful is that he basically got that Ciara clout, cashed it in to sleep with other women and then ⁓ they both used that and put out something acting like that he's a little bit more committed even to exploring things with Amanda than he was with her. So that part's really sad. Coco: It's really sad. It's like genuinely sad. Yeah. ⁓ Ashby: That is the part that's really sad. Like if I'm trying to just like think about it from her perspective, you know, if I'd had a crush on someone and we had like a little thing and then it seemed like we were gonna get back together and then there's rumors that he's seeing my newly divorced friend that I just helped go through a divorce. But he, but he had dumped me because he didn't want things to get serious. And he knew that I did. Coco: Yeah, even without all the other stuff. Yup. Ashby: Like, ugh, that's so gross. Coco: do, mm-hmm. Ashby: okay, it's like he was, he's clearly willing to take the heat for this or else it wouldn't have been on his account. So what is it about this relationship that he's willing to take some heat on that he wasn't willing to take anything on for Ciara? And that is gross. Coco: Yeah. It's just like, you cannot do better, than Ciara. Ciara is so smart, so funny, such a grounded person, such a loving family member, even when her family member relationships are complicated, so much about grounded in love, and her politics are on the right side of history, and she's beautiful. Ashby: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Coco: ⁓ and just, I'm just, like genuinely am like, look up to Ciara. She's like, ⁓ just is an example of a person growing on television in this very real way. ⁓ like, I just think it's, it's sad if you just want to be so shallow that you just want to have a bunch of sex with strangers. Like, I just think I'm like, well, you are trash. ⁓ really mean, but. Ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco: ⁓ Ashby: And I look, there's a really cynical, I think most people have correctly clocked that like Wes has almost been open about being a fuck boy, right? So in a way the public expects less from him, that's fine. But people are really upset about Amanda betraying her friend. And I think true, okay? Cause you should have had a conversation about it. ⁓ But ⁓ I wonder there's like, Coco: Yeah, yeah. Ashby: I'm trying to put myself in Amanda's mind. Why on earth would you fuck with this guy? And a little part of me is like, there's a maybe a really cynical way to look at this. That's like, does she think this is some type of endorsement from someone that she's hotter than Ciara? Is this some, is this like a gross thing that she's doing where she's like, wow, he likes me, but not her. I must be so amazingly hot and special. Coco: Yeah. Yeah, well, that's what people have talked about and it's that's like the yeah. Yeah. Ashby: because her self-esteem is so low that she's jealous of Ciara and in some subconscious fashion thinks getting West to be into her in spite of so much public backlash is like very thrilling and affirming to her. that is, girl, those are empty calories that is not nourishing to you. Get yourself to a nunnery. Coco: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. That's a therapy. You get yourself to the therapist. It will be will come out in the wash, I'm sure. But like if was going on before and or during Summer House, this the season that was as airing now, the fact that Amanda, when Ciara is having a heartfelt conversation about race, gets up from her chair, goes and stands next to Ciara and puts her arm on her and listens in the most empathetic way and then says something like along the lines of like, we're family, like we need to be this way with each other. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: If you're doing that behind someone's back, like, that's really dark. That's really dark and fucked up. Ashby: Okay, I know that this matters to people. and sure, I guess it does change the picture of things if one, you're not totally divorced, and two, ⁓ like this is happening on screen, you're having this really empathetic relationship with someone, and at the same time, you're trying to hide something from them. That is what's so deceptive. That's twisted and bad. Okay, true. I also think if you have that empathetic moment with that person, Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really twisted. Ashby: and then later you're tempted to kiss their ex. That's also bad. You're still the same person. You should be carrying that memory with you and you should be like, how will it affect my friend that I've said on TV I'm like family with? I do think it would have crossed your mind later on, even if it wasn't happening at the same time, that this might be a betrayal there. And so I don't... Coco: Till. Yeah. Hmm ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Ashby: I understand it would be worse, I guess, if you're being that two-faced at the same time, but I do still think, I do still think that like, it's not, it's also. Coco: Yeah. talking to Ciara about Ciara's feelings about West on camera, was diabolical, and West talking about trying to get back with Ciara. And I'm just like, if that's... Ashby: Yes, yes. But yeah. Apparently there's footage of Wes asking Kyle about Amanda and Kyle's sex life. Coco: Yeah, which is a thing that happened in Vanderpump Rules. Raquel did that to Ariana. And the parallels there are at least that like they're very different, but we also had like Raquel slash Rachel ex-singing of an abusive relationship with a DJ. Ashby: That's gross. That, ⁓ God. Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yikes. It starts to make you wonder if there's something about that that breaks the woman's brain. Yikes. Coco: About DJs. And we're not infantilize. I always think this infantilizing comment is very, I just think it's a very difficult. It's a difficult discourse because sometimes there's like, being hard on Amanda. And it's also like, do we only do that when black women are mad or black women are the victim is like, that's like the hard part to parse out. And I just think we can, we can hold, you know, people accountable without dipping into like misogyny. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, but I also think that we can ask more of allyship than sort of like lip service in the moment on TV where you're hearing someone share something vulnerable and you feel empathetic for them right then. like I don't think you should necessarily get a reward for just that experience, but Coco: Yeah. Yeah. Ashby: you're supposed to actually carry that with you forward and understand that things you do that affect this person, it's beyond just how would I feel if it were me. There are things about it that affect, that are going to affect this person differently. That is what they are trying to communicate to you. So I think it's the carelessness there with going forward, knowing that Ciara is in a slightly more sensitive position. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: and making those decisions anyway. It shows like a level of immaturity and it really makes your quote unquote allyship or your friendship or your family ship or whatever, it makes it look really hollow. So I think we can ask more of that for people that it's not just, yeah. Coco: Yep. Yep. That's what people watching this and talking about it can like, kind of come away with. Like, it has made me think about like my own friendships and, you know, yeah, we should really be more ⁓ mindful of who these people are. it just can't, I can't say it enough. It's just that like, you did this to a person who really takes things seriously. And at the very least, you should be able to respect that different people treat things differently, you know. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, ⁓ been on the show for a long time ⁓ they know that Ciara is fan favorite. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. mean, Amanda has been in every episode of Summer House basically for 10 years. Ciara has been on the show for five years. ⁓ And I love what on Giggly Squad, what Hannah said about Ciara, which was because Luke is someone that had like been sleeping with Hannah and then Luke brings Ciara into the show. And Hannah says on the most recent episode of Giggly Squad, like. Ashby: So what the fuck is my question. Yeah. Yes. Yes, I remember. Coco: We were supposed to be beefing from the second that she got there. We were set pit against each other to fight over a man. And that me and Ciara just connected about loving and like we connected on a human level and we didn't do that. that's so cool. ⁓ Ashby: Okay, this is back to my other thing of I don't understand why Kyle is allowed to be toxic for so long when there is a model there. Here's Carl, you saw how that worked out for him. Clearly it is not necessary for you to be like 10 toes down on being a drunk ass at the club every night. Coco: Nyeh! Yeah. Ashby: it's clear that you can continue to have like a career and a presence in the public by getting sober and like trying to work on yourself, right? Okay, every single relationship with Ciara on the show and Paige and Hannah, there's a model here for how girls can like talk to each other and approach the idea of getting involved with someone they used to be involved with. Multiple models, okay? If you saw the like you had just mentioned, Coco: ⁓ huh. Ashby: the Ciara, Lindsay, Carl situation, the Paige and Carl situation, the Hannah and Luke and everything situation. Like there is, yeah. I just, I'm efficient, okay? I've watched ⁓ compilations that put together exactly each storyline that I wanna get caught up on, okay? But like, if you seen that, Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know so much lore at this point if we're not watching the show. You Yes. Ashby: then you know there's a way to do this that is respectful. And so I struggle to understand how anyone can make different choices when it's right there. It's right there how to do this the right way. Coco: Yeah. just, think it's, I'm really glad we could talk about it. And ⁓ I think I hope people go and listen to Ciara's interview on Carl's ⁓ because she does get share so much more just about her experience of being on reality TV than in even the conversations that have happened within the show. ⁓ And I thought it was a really thoughtful, lovely conversation. Ashby: Mm-hmm. So anyway, that's the ⁓ Coco: wait. Ashby: I gotta say that the summer house discourse like really informed the outline for the next episode. ⁓ Coco: Woo! It's like we're just continuing the thread. Also, like, I don't know how, like, divorce became one of the themes of our podcast, but it kind of is. Ashby: It is just a bottomless well. There are so many interesting things there. So, yeah, so everybody stay tuned for that. Coco: You ⁓ Well, Ashby, thank you for being such an ⁓ person does her homework so intensely because you really, I don't need to explain anything anymore. ⁓ Ashby: an illness. That's what that is. I love a messy, I love a messy like cultural flashpoint. Thanks for understanding that and not being a Coco: ⁓ my God. Ashby: and not being like a purist about who's in the fandom and who's not. I appreciate that. Coco: And now we're on all the different podcast apps. And so if you like this episode, please send it to a friend and go visit us at syllabuspod.substack.com if you want to see any of the like references and videos that we have made here today. Ashby: ⁓ yeah, yeah, big. ⁓ So we will catch you next time. Coco. ⁓ Coco: All right. Bye, Ashby!