Latest / Nebraska History Podcast / The Birth of the Unicameral
Transcript
- 0:00The following episode features a historic article from the
- 0:02Nebraska History magazine. This article may reflect the
- 0:04language and attitudes of its time and while it offers
- 0:06valuable insight into the past, may contain expressions or
- 0:08viewpoints that are outdated or offensive by today's standards.
- 0:10Any outdated terms do not reflect the current views or
- 0:12perspectives of the Nebraska State Historical Society.
- 0:17Welcome to the Nebraska History podcast.
- 0:20I'm your host, Chris Goforth. Each episode we explore articles
- 0:23written and published in Nebraska History Magazine.
- 0:27The idea of a unicameral legislature was a latent passion
- 0:31for Senator George Norris. In the 1920s.
- 0:33He sought to keep his idea alive by writing newspaper and
- 0:36magazine articles emphasizing the advantages of the One House
- 0:40system. Let's look back at these early
- 0:42ideals of the unicameral in this 1964 article titled George W
- 0:47Norris, The Unicameral Legislature and the Progressive
- 0:50Ideal by Robert F Wesser. Recently, historians have
- 0:53undertaken a re evaluation of the decade of the 1920s in
- 0:57America. They have sought to emphasize
- 1:00the periods relationship to the progressive movement on the one
- 1:03hand, and the New Deal on the other hand, thus shifting the
- 1:06historical focus of the Jazz Age from its bizarre qualities to
- 1:11its continuities with past and future developments.
- 1:15Often cited as illustrating the bridge between early 20th
- 1:19century progressivism and New Deal liberalism is the career of
- 1:23Nebraska's renowned US Senator George W Norris, and
- 1:27specifically Norris's lonely fight to save federal government
- 1:31properties at Muscle Shoals, AL from the outstretched hands of
- 1:35private power companies. Within this context, the Muscle
- 1:39Shoals controversy resolved itself from a debate over public
- 1:42water power, policy, conservation, and federal state
- 1:45relationships, and throughout the decade served as a haunting
- 1:49reminder of the languishing spirit of progressivism.
- 1:52There was another phase of Norris's work in these years,
- 1:55his efforts in behalf of establishing a unicameral
- 1:58legislature in Nebraska, which harked back to earlier 20th
- 2:02century reformism, it's political and governmental
- 2:05ideals. To the progressive mind, one of
- 2:09the chief wrongs in American life was the growth in the
- 2:12latter 19th century of the large corporation and the inevitable,
- 2:17if regrettable, consequences of the vast accumulations of
- 2:21capital. Men of wealth could, and often
- 2:24did, ally themselves with politicians in order to secure
- 2:28for their businesses legislative favors and preferred treatment.
- 2:32The progressive response to this phenomenon was simple and
- 2:36direct, calling for some form of societal control and regulation,
- 2:40particularly of private utilities engaged in the public
- 2:44service, and simultaneously for the re establishment of
- 2:48political responsibility among governmental officials.
- 2:51In various ways such responsibility was to be
- 2:54restored, each in turn rendering local, state, and even federal
- 2:58office holders more directly accountable to the people whom
- 3:02they presumably served. So there were the direct
- 3:05primary, the initiative referendum and recall, the short
- 3:09ballot, the direct election of senators and others.
- 3:12Also in these years, the idea of a unicameral legislature took
- 3:17hold in a number of states, though in no single instance was
- 3:21the change affected during the Progressive Era.
- 3:24Senator Norris's own interest in reforming what to him was the
- 3:28illogical bicameral system went back well beyond the Progressive
- 3:32period to the 1880s, when, as a young lawyer in Beaver City, he
- 3:37had several opportunities to run for the Nebraska State
- 3:40Legislature. However, the low pay of a
- 3:43lawmaker and the fact that legislative sessions coincided
- 3:47with his busiest legal season, both characteristic weaknesses
- 3:51of the conventional system, he later argued, compelled him to
- 3:55refuse nominations. It was not until 1923 that
- 3:59Norris, now with 20 years of congressional experience behind
- 4:03him, publicly confessed his determination to reform the
- 4:07machinery of government as well as the law.
- 4:11Specifically, he mentioned the Nebraska Legislature and even
- 4:15expressed a desire to retire from national politics the next
- 4:18year in order to devote most of his time to the great fight that
- 4:23lay ahead. When, indeed, his avid
- 4:26supporters virtually compelled him to seek reelection to the
- 4:29Senate, Norris grieved over his inability, as he put it, Quote.
- 4:33To follow my own inclinations in this matter.
- 4:36End Quote. Often frustrated and despondent
- 4:39in these conservative years, the sensitive liberal resolved that
- 4:43before he died he would perform one outstanding service for his
- 4:47home state. Quote.
- 4:48The replacement of the unwieldy and inefficient 2 chamber
- 4:51legislature by 1 compact body. End Quote.
- 4:55With Norris, the idea of a unicameral legislature became a
- 4:58passion, albeit a latent passion, through the 1920s.
- 5:02Too busy with his determined battle to save Muscle Shoals, he
- 5:06scarcely had time for this, his other pet project.
- 5:09Strangely enough, the history of these two significant aspects of
- 5:13his career had striking parallels.
- 5:16In principle, they reflected different features of the
- 5:19progressive ideal. Moreover, just as Norris learned
- 5:22early in the Muscle Shoals imbroglio, the fruition of his
- 5:27dream for the Tennessee River Valley lay in the future, so he
- 5:30came to understand that the realization of his unicameral
- 5:33reform awaited a resurgence of liberalism.
- 5:37In the meantime, he sought to keep his idea alive by writing
- 5:40newspaper and magazine articles emphasizing the advantages of A1
- 5:44House system over the anachronism of the bicameral
- 5:48system. Norris's first literary endeavor
- 5:52in behalf of his reform, entitled A Model State
- 5:56Legislature, appeared in 1923 in the New York Times.
- 6:00This article contained all of the basic arguments that were
- 6:03used over and over again right up to the successful conclusion
- 6:08of his campaign in 1934. Taking as his point of departure
- 6:12the progressive notion of re establishing political
- 6:14responsibility among public servants, Norris candidly put
- 6:18forth the case for the unicameral legislature,
- 6:21proposing a small lawmaking body elected on nonpartisan basis in
- 6:26place of the large, unwieldy, often violently partisan
- 6:30conventional arrangement. The Nebraska senator, in typical
- 6:34fashion, began his discussion by citing criticism after criticism
- 6:38of the existing framework. He concentrated his attack upon
- 6:41the quote undemocratic conference committee, End Quote,
- 6:45which meets when bills passed in both houses vary in content.
- 6:49This process, Norris maintained, grants arbitrary power to the
- 6:53few men who are chosen to put legislation in final form.
- 6:58Making matters worse, he added, is the fact that this third
- 7:02house, as he would call it, often meeting behind closed
- 7:05doors, is a haven for lobbyists, who usually need to influence
- 7:09only two or three legislators. When finally the conference
- 7:13report reaches the separate houses, Norris went on,
- 7:16individual lawmakers find it difficult to express opposition
- 7:20to any specific provision that the bill in revised form
- 7:23contains. In turn, the conscientious
- 7:26citizen cannot properly evaluate the efforts of his
- 7:29representative. The end result is a travesty of
- 7:32the democratic process. The unicameral legislature in
- 7:36small size, Norris continued, would be free of the evils
- 7:40characteristic of the two House system.
- 7:42Conceding that in theory a larger body is supposed to be
- 7:46more representative of a citizenry, he argued that in
- 7:49practice each man loses his individual rights.
- 7:53Committees must determine procedure by special rules,
- 7:56there is a deprivation of the right to offer amendments and
- 8:00there is less time for deliberation.
- 8:03Writing much later on the same thought, Norris asserted that
- 8:06professional lobbyists had told him that the easiest situation
- 8:10to handle was the large legislative body.
- 8:13Here only two or three leaders needed to be controlled, while
- 8:16in a small body, quote, every member has all the rights of
- 8:20every other member and is much more difficult to control.
- 8:24End Quote. The Senators final proposal, and
- 8:28the one nearest his heart, was the election of representatives
- 8:31on a nonpartisan basis. Since his later years as a
- 8:35congressman, Norris had himself been free of blind party loyalty
- 8:40to him. The Republican Party was subject
- 8:42to the same influences that dominated the Democratic Party.
- 8:46Both, quote, were machines controlled, and the Democratic
- 8:49and Republican machines the Muscle Shoals fight had taught
- 8:52him worked in perfect harmony of brotherly love.
- 8:55End Quote, the removal of this stumbling block to good
- 8:58legislation, nor thus attached to his unicameral reform.
- 9:02Hollow as these proposals may have sounded in the Harding
- 9:05Coolidge era, the unicameral idea was an old one.
- 9:09In America. The first constitutions of
- 9:12Pennsylvania, Vermont, and Georgia provided for single
- 9:15house legislatures, although in each case a board of censors was
- 9:19established and in effect operated as a second house.
- 9:23Of these states, Vermont kept the arrangement the longest,
- 9:27until 1836. Approximately 70 years elapsed
- 9:31before the idea again took hold. When, during the Progressive
- 9:35period, governors of six states recommended to constitutional
- 9:38conventions revision along unicameral lines.
- 9:42In New York and Ohio, the reform was considered but not acted
- 9:46upon. In Oregon, Oklahoma, and
- 9:48Arizona, the people themselves turned down efforts to institute
- 9:51the single deliberative assembly.
- 9:54A joint legislative committee of Nebraska studied the possibility
- 9:57and filed a favorable report. But little was done until six
- 10:01years later, in 1919, when a motion before the Constitutional
- 10:05convention providing for a unicameral body was defeated by
- 10:09a close vote. While one feature of the
- 10:12composite Norris plan had thus become familiar to Nebraskans,
- 10:16the foundation had been laid for another Back in 19 O 9
- 10:20partisanship had been abolished in elections all the way from
- 10:24local boards of education to state Superintendent, and in the
- 10:28judiciary from the lower courts to the supreme bench.
- 10:31Yet these moves were insignificant next to Norris's
- 10:34proposed governmental change, and the very radical nature of
- 10:37his program contributed to the 10 year delay in his campaign.
- 10:42There were, of course, compelling reasons why, to
- 10:46Senator Norris and to others, 1933 loomed as a Goodyear in
- 10:50which to launch the fight in Nebraska for the unicameral
- 10:53legislature. The Depression itself bred much
- 10:57discontent with existing institutions, and once again
- 11:00Americans appeared willing to implement new and challenging
- 11:04ideas. Furthermore, the Democratic
- 11:07landslide of 1932 brought in its wake a Nebraska Legislature
- 11:11sporting inexperienced lawmakers whose first efforts proved
- 11:15unimaginative and fruitless. Finally, there was Senator
- 11:19Norris himself, now a towering figure not only in his home
- 11:23state but across the nation as well.
- 11:25The quote fighting liberals and quote, brilliant record in
- 11:29Washington and the promise of further achievement gave him a
- 11:32measure of prestige and influence which few politicians
- 11:36can boast in their lifetime. Indeed, by the time the
- 11:39unicameral campaign was begun, Norris had lived down his
- 11:43reputation as a member of that, quote, little group of willful
- 11:47men and quote who attempted to sabotage President Wilson's
- 11:50preparedness efforts in 1917. People had come to know the
- 11:54Senator as a man who had labored incessantly for the farm block
- 11:59throughout the 1920s and had been remarkably successful in
- 12:03securing a National Labor Anti injunction law in 1930,
- 12:07acceptance by Congress of his proposed lame duck amendment to
- 12:11the United States Constitution in 1932, and finally enactment
- 12:15of his Tennessee River Valley Plan in 1933.
- 12:19He was rapidly on his way to gaining the reputation later
- 12:22described by the once critical New York Times as, quote, a
- 12:26contemporary founding father, always remote from the scramble
- 12:30of politics, a thinker and a philosopher.
- 12:33End Quote. Busy as Norris was in Washington
- 12:36in 1933, he never lost sight of his earlier declarations on the
- 12:41unicameral experiment. To be sure, he was no longer
- 12:45interested in retiring from national politics to devote all
- 12:48of his time to the One House campaign, but he was willing
- 12:51more than ever to plunge himself into such a movement to a
- 12:56friend. He optimistically announced that
- 12:57his reform quote could be brought about if we would
- 13:00organize and make the right kind of fight.
- 13:03End Quote. Hard on the heels of this and
- 13:06other similar statements came letters of support and
- 13:09encouragement from people all across Nebraska.
- 13:12So enthusiastic was this response that Colonel John G
- 13:15Maher, long one of the Senators, close associates and a pillar in
- 13:20the single House movement, called a public meeting in
- 13:22Lincoln on February 22nd, 1934. Appropriately, Norris was
- 13:27invited to deliver the main address in behalf of the
- 13:30unicameral reform and the campaign was underway.
- 13:34Senator Norris took full advantage of his appearance in
- 13:36Lincoln, NE to tie his reform proposal to his long held
- 13:40progressive philosophy. He traced the origins of the
- 13:43democratic ideal in America, asserting that the history of
- 13:47our civilization has been basically a contest between the
- 13:50rulers and the ruled. The Constitution, he insisted,
- 13:54was designed in accordance with the theory that the quote common
- 13:58people were not sufficiently civilized and sufficiently
- 14:01educated to govern themselves. End Quote.
- 14:04But, he continued, history has seen inevitable advances towards
- 14:08the achievement of democracy. Already we have repudiated at
- 14:13least one of the old conservative features, the
- 14:15election of senators by state legislatures.
- 14:18Others will follow in due course, Norris added, implying
- 14:21that the success of his unicameral plan in Nebraska
- 14:25would spur other states to adopt it.
- 14:28Following Norris's impassioned speech, the enthusiastic throng
- 14:31of 800 adopted a resolution commissioning Colonel Maher to
- 14:36organize a committee to circulate petitions in
- 14:39compliance with the state constitution.
- 14:41Since preliminary details had been ironed out well before the
- 14:44Lincoln meeting, it was announced that 57,000 signatures
- 14:48were necessary to submit the question to a referendum in the
- 14:52November elections. Already a careful observer,
- 14:56confident in the Nebraska Senators widespread influence,
- 14:59had predicted that this task would be an easy one for such a
- 15:02quote organized as the friends of Norris are prepared to
- 15:06perfect End Quote. Yet the early stages of the
- 15:10unicameral campaign transpired less smoothly than was
- 15:13anticipated. The Model Legislative Committee
- 15:16itself ran into difficulty when it attempted to revise the
- 15:20Senators tentative proposals. Individual members were
- 15:23especially reluctant to include the non partisanship feature,
- 15:27which, although acceptable in principle, would, they believed,
- 15:31endanger the rest of the amendment.
- 15:33Trouble had been foreshadowed when Arthur F Mullen, the leader
- 15:38of the Democratic Party in Nebraska, was refused to
- 15:40compromise by Norris in which the controversial provision was
- 15:44to be dropped in return for Democratic support.
- 15:47Furthermore, the determined Norris refused even to listen to
- 15:51another committee criticism that the election of a governor on a
- 15:54partisan ballot would lead to complications.
- 15:57Only on one matter, the number of representatives in the new
- 16:01single House deliberative body, would this senator compromise.
- 16:06Here the issue was pure and simple.
- 16:08Nebraska farmers, long the core of Norris's strength, apparently
- 16:12felt that fewer legislators would result in city domination
- 16:16of the state government, a condition which they naturally
- 16:19feared and abhorred. So he capitulated and acquiesced
- 16:24in an increase of membership from 30 to 50 representatives.
- 16:29The final number would be determined by the 19351937
- 16:33Legislature. With these difficulties thus
- 16:36ironed out, the committee drew up a set of proposals calling
- 16:39for a unicameral body with members elected in single
- 16:43districts on a nonpartisan basis, the right of a lawmaker
- 16:47to introduce bills at any time during the legislative session,
- 16:51the only reservation being that no bill could become a law in
- 16:55less than 5 days. And finally, salaries of $1774
- 17:01per member for two years work together with transportation
- 17:04expenses to Lincoln once each session.
- 17:07In essence, the details of the unicameral plan followed closely
- 17:11Norris's general principles. In the meantime, petitioners
- 17:16busied themselves throughout the state in an effort to obtain the
- 17:19required number of signatures. Here are two obstacles were met.
- 17:23The chief difficulty stemmed from a provision from the State
- 17:27Constitution stipulating that each petition could offer only
- 17:3120 names and had to contain an affidavit verifying that the
- 17:34circulator personally witnessed every signature.
- 17:38Furthermore, the names had to be distributed among at least 62 of
- 17:43the 93 counties, burdening the unicameral organization with the
- 17:47task of finding petitioners in each locality.
- 17:50At first, volunteers were not readily available, and the
- 17:54committee sought funds with which to pay circulators.
- 17:58This effort proved futile, however, as the proposed reform
- 18:02engendered little enthusiasm among substantial citizens, so
- 18:07desperate did the situation become.
- 18:09At one point, the campaign chairman, Donald Gallagher,
- 18:12wrote discouragingly to Senator Norris in Washington, suggesting
- 18:17the possibility of postponing that campaign for two years.
- 18:20Alarmed over the drop in morale of his group, Norris generously
- 18:24enclosed a personal check to Gallagher for $1000 to help
- 18:29defray mounting expenses. Fortunately, as the unicameral
- 18:33movement gained impetus, more and more volunteers poured into
- 18:37the Lincoln headquarters, and little additional money was
- 18:40needed. The final and most crucial stage
- 18:43of the unicameral campaign came in the fall of 1934, with
- 18:47Senator Norris himself assuming the greatest burden.
- 18:51Already in September his secretary had set up quarters in
- 18:55the state Capitol, and he followed along the next month.
- 18:59Norris knew that the task ahead was still a difficult one, for
- 19:03in spite of the work of his cohorts, the amendment had not
- 19:07had the advantage of being proposed in any recent session
- 19:10of the Legislature, nor recommended in a gubernatorial
- 19:14message, or, for that matter, even intelligently discussed in
- 19:17the state press. Yet the determined senator
- 19:21despaired not and instead plunged wholeheartedly into the
- 19:25campaign. Senator Norris commenced his
- 19:28whirlwind state tour in Hastings where he humbly confessed his
- 19:32irritation at statements. In punging his motives, people
- 19:36often asked him and he admitted, quote, what does Norris get out
- 19:39of it? End Quote.
- 19:41To him, public service, not personal gain, had always been
- 19:45his chief inspiration. In subsequent speeches, he used
- 19:49all of the arguments at his disposal against the
- 19:52inefficiency and corruptibility of the traditional two House
- 19:56system. Norris often cited the case in
- 19:59the Nebraska Legislature, where a majority favored a bill
- 20:02permitting certain municipal plants to extend lines outside
- 20:06of the municipality, just as private utilities had done.
- 20:10However, as a result of clever manipulation of the conference
- 20:13committee, the private interests not only blocked the legislation
- 20:18but caused so much confusion in the process that the electorate
- 20:21remained totally ignorant of the issues at stake.
- 20:25When the air finally cleared, he added, a referendum was held and
- 20:28the measure received overwhelming popular support.
- 20:32To this illustration, Norris usually appended equip directed
- 20:36at his opponent's quote in every two House legislature.
- 20:40If we post the checks and the balances after the end of the
- 20:43session, we shall find that the politicians have the checks and
- 20:47the interests have the balances. End Quote.
- 20:52Needless to say, Norris's opposition, composed largely of
- 20:55newspaper editors, the leaders of both parties, and a vast
- 20:59majority of present and past legislators, was not silent.
- 21:04They literally cringed at such an irreverent attack upon the
- 21:08time honored system and cited the great authorities Alexander
- 21:12Hamilton, James Kent, and Joseph Story, whose arguments in behalf
- 21:16of the bicameral legislature rested on a defense of property
- 21:20rights. As if to modernize this old
- 21:23version, several anti unicameral speakers and writers emphasize
- 21:27the importance of maintaining 2 houses for checking sectional
- 21:31interests. It is still true, wrote Walter
- 21:34Dodd quote, that one house does check the other to some extent.
- 21:38End Quote. Anticipating this objection,
- 21:41Norris could only reply in terms of his own experience as a
- 21:44member of the House of Representatives and the United
- 21:47States Senate. Quote With very few exceptions,
- 21:50it makes little difference whether a representative lives
- 21:53in a rural community or whether he comes from the heart of a
- 21:56large city. End Quote.
- 21:58He himself had always been sympathetic to labor's plight,
- 22:01though his particular community and state were essentially
- 22:04rural. Norris did concede, however,
- 22:07that states with large urban centers should strive to attain
- 22:11sectional balance in an experimental unicameral
- 22:14legislature. As the unicameral campaign drew
- 22:17to a close in early November, the Norris organization was
- 22:20confident that their reform would, quote, receive a larger
- 22:24vote than people expected. End Quote.
- 22:26Certainly its fate captured national attention in the period
- 22:30immediately before and shortly after its enactment.
- 22:33Colliers had early come out strongly against the idea on the
- 22:37ground that A1 House legislature of so few members quote is a
- 22:41plea for authority more centralized.
- 22:43End Quote. The representative Government
- 22:45Association concurred and in a pamphlet added that the proposed
- 22:49UN American change would break down the hold which the people
- 22:54have over their representatives. Even the Christian Science
- 22:58Monitor cited the desire for, quote, centralization and
- 23:01authority. End Quote.
- 23:03But look at the proposal in a more favorable light.
- 23:06While the Saturday Evening Post insisted that there was no
- 23:09justification whatsoever for a state bicameral legislature,
- 23:14originally, they added, senators quote were expected to be of
- 23:18superior wealth and social standing, End Quote, and
- 23:21property qualifications were required of electors of the
- 23:24upper house. In recent times, however, aside
- 23:28from the manner and size of apportionment, the only
- 23:30difference in the two houses has been the senators serve longer
- 23:34terms. Finally, the American
- 23:36Legislators Association conducted a survey of segments
- 23:40of the population and concluded that 59% of those polled opposed
- 23:45the Nebraska experiment. Significantly, state and federal
- 23:48legislators rejected it by a vote of approximately 3 to one,
- 23:52while professors of government and others engaged in research
- 23:56along these lines favored it 4 to one.
- 24:00The results of the Nebraska Unicameral campaign in November
- 24:031934 was indeed decisive. The proposed amendment carried
- 24:08the state by a plurality of over 90,000 votes.
- 24:13Only 8 counties out of 93, Norris happily noted, turned
- 24:18down his idea. For him, the triumph was a rich
- 24:22reward, following a more vigorous campaign than he had
- 24:25ever waged as a candidate for an elected office.
- 24:28But in his customarily modest way, the senator took little
- 24:32personal credit for the victory, applauding instead the stellar
- 24:36efforts of his organization and the enlightened state of the
- 24:39Nebraska electorate. It was another two years before
- 24:43the unicameral reform actually went in effect in Nebraska, and
- 24:47in the meantime Norris returned to his desk in Washington.
- 24:50His work, however, was not forgotten when, in January 1937,
- 24:55the One House legislature commenced its deliberations.
- 24:58The aging senator was invited to deliver the first message.
- 25:03Proudly standing before his peers, he took this momentous
- 25:06occasion to appeal once again in behalf of the progressive cause.
- 25:11Sensitive to the role that unicameralism might play in
- 25:14improving democratic government, Norris asked for the cooperation
- 25:18of all and warned that lobbyists, politicians, quote,
- 25:23and every representative of greed and monopoly are hoping
- 25:26and praying that your work will be a failure.
- 25:29End Quote. Upon completing his remarks,
- 25:32Norris received a standing ovation and was escorted from
- 25:35the platform by several prominent Nebraska leaders.
- 25:40Undoubtedly, Senator Norris's victory in his home state in
- 25:431934 resulted from a renewed spirit of liberalism and
- 25:47experimentalism which swept across the nation in the
- 25:50Depression years, together with his own personal dedication and
- 25:54determination. The gentle night of American
- 25:58progressive ideals, as President Franklin D Roosevelt so aptly
- 26:02called him, had again succeeded in achieving a specific
- 26:05objective within a tradition of reform which had guided his
- 26:09political career for over a quarter of a century.
- 26:13If today the Norris formula for the perfection of representative
- 26:16government and the realization of the democratic ideals appears
- 26:20too simple and perhaps somewhat naive, it is because simplicity
- 26:24and perhaps even naivete were characteristics of the
- 26:28progressive impulse as it sprang out of the 19th century America.
- 26:33George Norris was a product of that America and her inherent
- 26:37belief in the perfectibility of human institutions.
- 26:41Thank you for listening to the Nebraska History Podcast.
- 26:44To learn more about Nebraska History Magazine, to listen to
- 26:47more podcasts, or to support our podcast by becoming a member of
- 26:51the Nebraska State Historical Society, go to
- 26:53history.nebraska.gov/podcast. And don't forget to subscribe to
- 26:58the podcast and get notified when we release new episodes on
- 27:01your favorite podcast platform. Until next time, I'm Chris
- 27:05Goforth.