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Beside Every Calling | Episode 8: The Loneliness No One Talks About in Ministry Life · Beside Every Calling

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Hi friends, welcome to Beside Every Calling.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Debbie Daniels.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Joe Barber.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we are glad you're listening.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Do us a favor and share this podcast with any friends out there who happen to be ministry spouses that you think this could help.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're talking about an issue that very few people want to talk about, but it is real if you've been in ministry.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: We want to talk about spouses experiencing at some point loneliness.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And my guess is every single person in ministry at some point has felt this.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: So Jill and I are going to talk about the thing no one wants to talk about, but we want to talk about it and hope that you not only can we can feel seen and heard, but also it will help other people feel seen and heard in this sacred space.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So Debbie, let's just start off with the first question for each one of us.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um when have you personally felt the most alone in ministry life?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if I'm gonna be totally honest, then it's now.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think the I don't want to say higher up because I don't think that there really is in ministry a certain job that's really above the other.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think with Scott's current position, um, there's six general superintendents in the Church of the Nazarene.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of our listeners, again, aren't in our denomination.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how it works.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we aren't at a local church after spending 30 plus years in local church ministry.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's the global church.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I don't have any people.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: I have five other spouses that understand my role.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I have really struggled in the last two and a half years to find my space because in church, Scott and I always did everything together.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: We were, I was a part of everything.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and now why I did quit my job so I could travel with him, I have not found my people that really understand what my life is like.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um no one checks in on me to see if you're okay.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh even it's the strangest thing, even like I we were not it's not bad, but it's just different.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: But like at Christmas, there's no church experience of people saying Merry Christmas or getting you a Christmas present or your anniversary or the things that the typical church takes such great care of their pastors.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and in this role, there it is really, really lonely.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to be very intentional um at having friendship.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: What about you?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, to be incredibly transparent also.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: I we only hopefully have my aunt and maybe a couple other listeners.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's only a couple people listening, but uh I would I would just have to say it's the current current time as well.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I have experienced loneliness for sure all the way through our 36 years of ministry in different churches and places and positions.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it it's just different.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, like you said, the the when there's more people that understand kind of you, maybe know you or get to worship with you on a regular basis or just whatever, there seems to be sometimes, and I have felt deep loneliness in that crowd as well.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I these days are are lonely.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there is there's only one global uh discipleship director.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so there's a couple other different global leaders for sure, obviously the BGS, but I mean the ministry leaders that like we serve.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a few others that kind of understand, but you know, we're not physically close to them, you know, to go out to get ice cream or just whatever, but they're great people.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I just I think, and I've been trying to understand it, the um when there's fewer people that understand your life, it seems to seems to be, I can be very wrong, but the less of people want to be around you because they don't understand what you do.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think even good people, good people, good friends, good wonderful people.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what we've experienced in the last 19 months of this position is really awesome people that we have been really great friends with, uh, and are still today.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's been nothing happen.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we recognize that they're busy too, and there's very few that still want to step into our world with our friendship because we don't might not do the same thing, you know, anymore.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's it is lonely, it is very lonely.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I say that to say not to complain, but just to be transparent, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: To say uh anywhere you look, the grass is not greener always.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's where the Lord put you uh and put us on purpose for sure.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it doesn't mean it's easy or easier or even uh less lonely.
• 5:24
  unknown: Right.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the people that understand my life the closest are probably people in your positions or district superintendent spouses, those ministry spouses.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I know again, I always feel bad because we are not apologizing that we both are in the Nazarene tradition, but for our friends listening that aren't, we have church leaders at different levels of leadership and our district superintendents leave pastoring a local church and oversee multitudes of churches, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: So those spouses I know I've heard from multiples um that that's a really difficult transition.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: It is so I always feel like the DS spouse understands my life the most.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hers, though, is lived in a car going church to church, and mine is lived in an airplane, church to church.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just also I think that piece of no one really knows you.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when you're a pastor's wife, you can feel really lonely.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Those those of you spouses listening that are pastors' spouses, you also can feel lonely because your husband preaches about your family or your wife if you're a male spouse.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so they feel like they know you, but you don't know them, and so you have to kind of pick and choose your friendships and all of that, but you still have a community that you go back to every week.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have that anywhere in my life.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, my oldest son is my current pastor when I'm home, his church, and it's a church plant out in Boise, and it's a beautiful church, it's about 60 people.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Scott and I are by far the grandma and grandpa when we show up, they're all young.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I'm not there enough to really feel plugged in, and these are my people, if you will.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so, but God does give me little kisses of I see you, Debbie, and I know where you are.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And my loneliness is taken away with how much time I spend with him.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say, I don't know if you'd agree, but he is enough.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it's still sometimes I just want someone in the flesh, and I even feel bad telling him, but Lord, I just want someone to check on me.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: But Scott might talk about, I think my husband might say it's also his loneliest time.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because we could go months without anyone ever asking, How are you?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, we're in the same boat.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's, you know, we go to a wonderful little Nazarene church or we we visit our son's church sometimes when we're home on a weekend.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: But again, we're just not there uh enough to really jump into the community that we would really love to.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: We would just want to support it while we're here, you know, and all that.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we love doing that.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there's there can be it, we can go months, nobody checks in.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're used to having that church community that is such a beautiful space, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Where you do take care of each other.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I was blessed last week.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: I had coffee or brunch actually, with eight saints of our church.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: The last church we pastored.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, great.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: These women really pray for me.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it was such a gift, and they are the only eight people that even know I'm having eye surgery, but I don't even have a community to tell.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that feels really strange.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's just it's just a different space.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, the Lord knew I'd be here.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I had, you know, we wasn't anything you write down and say, Oh, this is gonna happen to you or whatever.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just where the Lord puts you, you know that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we want to be a part of the solution because you want to say, Well, the church forgot us.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, no, we are the church, and so how are we gonna fix this?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: How do we show up for each other?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: How do we how do we help?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe this podcast somehow can help some spouse out there feel like, wait, I totally felt that way.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and recently, uh, you know, we looked on our calendar as crazy as all of our calendars are, and just said, okay, we need to have some people over, you know.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we just started planning a few dinners here and there.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one I had to cancel just because a life happened or whatever, but I've got uh a group of people coming over in a couple weeks that we're just really excited to fellowship with and you know, just different things like that.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I I know me and I know Sam.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, we we need people, we have to be with people.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but yeah, we just I just had to take initiative to say, okay, who who do we need to fellowship with?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Who can pour into our lives and who can we laugh with and you know and pray with and just be with?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I just think it is that loneliness of how do I what do I do to change it instead of sit and wallow in it?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, have you ever found yourself uh really what what wherever you are in ministry, uh whatever role you are in as a spouse, like who is a real friend to you?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I've had real friends in different seasons and different situations, and and I think I think even though I haven't spoken to some of them in maybe years, uh, but maybe we're Facebook friends or whatever, I hope they would know that we're still friends.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just life has gone on for them and life has gone on for us in different places, even in the world and just different places.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but how how have you found a a real friend in ministry?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like for you through these 30-some years?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I have friends that are family, and that has helped.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And friends that when my kids were little that I raised my kids with, they those are still my go-to friends.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, I don't know, and even like you, we met, I don't know, 20 years ago.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so friends from back then, I don't know how I can make friends, new friends right now.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be totally honest.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I'm in spaces ever to go deep with anyone.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: I Scott and I are two or three days, move again, two or three days, move again.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he'll get home from Africa Tuesday night, Friday we leave, we start all the American and Canada assemblies, and so we're home two days a week, Wednesday and Thursday, well, Tuesday and Wednesday, and we fly out every Thursday, get home every Monday.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the lifestyle just doesn't really adapt to that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had to adjust, I think, my expectations on what that looks like, if you will, with we've talked before an episode about the ministry of presence, yeah, which is what I give them, but I'm still trying to figure out how God fills me up, yeah, like with friendship because I love girlfriends.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like my favorite thing is laugh at your friends until you cry or wet your pants, depending how old you are.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I just think I do have those friends, but they're you you could count them on your fingers versus where I used to have lots of people I would call and do things with.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: When have you when have you felt the most lonely other than this current season?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: I probably think it was when my kids were little because we had four and eight years and we were at a church.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: The churches were wonderful, but I was so busy, and Scott was so busy as a young pastor, and I didn't feel seen and just did my thing.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I will tell you, my kids did fill my bucket in some weird, like I truly I wasn't a mom that kind of endured it.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: I ate it up.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: I still to this day hate that I had to share my kids with the world because I think I love hanging out with them.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: They're like the best humans ever.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, and so I but I do remember being really lonely for adult friendship, which I'm gonna throw this out there for anyone that's a ministry spouse and not traveling, and it might work for a DS spouse, but in Oklahoma, we started a group, a birthday club, and all of us there's eight women, and we had very little in common except we all, I think it was from Bethany First Church, is where we all were at the time.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we would meet and we would close down those restaurants, um, and we'd bring a present.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: She could pick if she wanted a present, or we all pitched in money, so she'd get a little gift that way.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we would sit and laugh and just talk about motherhood.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we were so different.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: I remember our friend Stephanie.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: One of my favorite memories of her is her daughter would only eat orange food.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the other really super probably very healthy, good moms versus me and my friend Marla.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Marla and I thought, there's no problem, you get Cheetos, cheese, and carrots.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: We were thinking, well, it's fine.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the other ones were freaking out.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just so starting a birthday club is a great way that we didn't think we had anything in common, but yet our friendship is I'm still one of those women, it's still my go-to friends today.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: If I need anything, I would text Marla in a heartbeat.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope she would also text me.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think um through our ministry life and story, um, I just I had to go to work uh just for you know, we like to eat, and um sometimes ministry doesn't provide, yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: No one's getting rich in ministry, but we haven't met them yet.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I'm still working.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it's still, you know, it's what we do.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um anyway, so for that, let me just say going to work in different places, not that they were the perfect friends or or friends I would probably choose, but it was adult um conversations, it was adult, you know, working.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't mean adult bad.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean just not child, you know, whatever kind of thing.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't change their diaper.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right, no, no, no.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I did love that, I couldn't keep doing that because we needed a little bit more finances.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, so that kind of did it, you know, maybe not filled the full friendship thing, but it did feel it did fill my um need for conversation at a different level, uh, you know, of being an adult, and it's like, oh, we can solve a problem here, or I can do that, or I can sell that, or I can do this, you know, kind of thing.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it also gave me a sense of immediate accomplishment, you know, um, because raising kids takes a while, you know, kind of thing.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, you can see it now, but that's so many years later.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there was something in me I didn't know that I needed to, you know, that was a good thing for me to feel.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that kind of did that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: But even at our churches where the Lord had us over the years, there was always one or two women that, you know, I I could go out to lunch with or, you know, just be friends with.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we've talked before on many different episodes about, you know, you can have friends within the church.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let anybody tell you you can't.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we have both had that.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: People tell us that, and it's just wrong.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to have a really good sense of boundaries uh and discipline to know what to say or maybe not not where to go on different conversations, depending on what's going on.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you can definitely have a friendship there.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, and I know I had that uh pretty much every church we went to.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that was that was gracious from the Lord to do that as I worked full-time different places.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: But so have you on that note, are there anything that you've had to be careful of in friendship?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So over the years, different um situations come to mind where you know, uh Sam was leading a new initiative, whatever that initiative would be in the church.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And he was probably uh got the support from the board probably and was preaching about it and was leading the church up to it, whatever, whatever that initiative was.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um the friend that I would love to go out to have lunch with, you know, her husband may not be real happy about what was happening and going on.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I just tried to not go there.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh she may have said a couple things, you know, trying to make me say something.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I probably have failed at that a couple of times.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, maybe I have said something that I probably shouldn't have.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or, but then I would go back and I go, okay, I can't do that anymore.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next time it would happen, I would just say, okay, we can't talk about this.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: We need to be friends, you know, this is something that is going on over here.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's really hard to do uh for me because it's like, oh, I I just want us all to love each other and I'll be okay and I'll be on the same page, you know.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not always the way it is.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's tricky.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: I that made me, I don't know why I jumped back to our very first senior pastorate.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: And there was this sweet older lady, she was 20 years older than us and was like a grandma to our kids and just amazing, one of our dearest friends.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: And when Scott resigned, I remember my father-in-law season pastor said we couldn't tell anyone until the board knew.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so I didn't say anything to her, and she was on the board, and she had her feelings so hurt that she never talked to us again.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was just a cut off of friendship.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I loved her, and I get it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm older obviously now, and think look back and think, man, that must have just hurt so bad because she then she thought we weren't really friends.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and in my defense, we were young pastors doing what the seasoned pastors told us is the right thing to do.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it ended up in a wound.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes those friendships and you just learn and move on and have to do better each time.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think there's sometimes those wounds that you're learning how to navigate friendship in the pastorate or in ministry life in general, like right now.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, trying to figure out okay, is it okay to text them?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Should I not text them?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, yeah, and seeing who texts you back, or it's it's silliness, but you don't want to overstep your friend, if you know what I mean.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: But you want to have real friendship.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you, I think we're made to have real friendship.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it got me thinking when you're talking about that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it came to my head that I think we should probably say out loud, because we're such we're built for friendship, we're built for community.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm that way.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: We we're all built that way.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to be very careful about uh we always say, and you can disagree with me, but we always say, like, I should not have a man that is my best friend.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: That should not, that should not happen.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Sam should not have a woman that is his best friend, because that's what we are made for each other in marriage.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when that happens, we have seen that just destroy relationships and marriages.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and in the ministry, that can happen, you know, it can happen everywhere, but we you have to be on guard at all times, you know.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yes, I am going to work with lots of men, and yes, Sam's gonna work with women, and of course, there's a working relationship that's appropriate and very good and can be very productive, but it should never cross the line of any kind of extra friendship anywhere with anyone.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because when you marry, you become you you both have different needs that you are signed up to fulfill.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um, that is what who we are for each other, and we've tried to guard that with everything imaginable for your integrity, for everything going on.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I just want to say that out loud to anybody that's listening because it, you know, if there's there's a man at your work or wherever that might be, you know, um giving you compliments on your hair, how you look, or just whatever, be very careful of that.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you are filled with your compliment bucket from your husband before you don't accept that there's there's that's a little bit not appropriate, you know.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: We forget that the enemy isn't flesh and blood, there's a real enemy out there, right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And in tw this year and day and age, it only takes someone accusing your spouse of something, even if you prove it didn't happen.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, the reputation that's destroyed that you've built decades of ministry life in one bad situation can change everything, yeah.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just not worth it.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so you do want to put up guardrails and you want to have multiple guardrails.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, yeah, that's just the rule, even though he had a window in his door, like different things we would make sure.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and the female spouses or pastors on staff, he would have lunch with them in big open spaces, but he'd not regularly.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like if it was he would always invite a male sp uh pastor to join them.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I've had people say to me, Well, that doesn't seem right.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, well, that's okay because it's my marriage.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got to fight for your marriage, absolutely a bulldog for your marriage at every cost.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't care if somebody gets mad about it.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: We had similar rules.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Sam, if it was during the day and if I wasn't at the church or whatever, I was working outside the church at that time.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: If that he had staff, he would just say, Hey, my door's gonna be open.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna sit right here, and I need you to be in your office, which is like right across the thing, you know, because so and so is coming in.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want everybody to know so and so is here, you know, or whatever.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if it was after hours, he would say, You know, Jill's gonna be sitting in with us.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and most of the time.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Probably 95% of the time that I was sitting, you know, I was just sitting there, just being a presence to say was I was in the room, kind of thing.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, she would literally be talking to me uh because she was hurt so bad or whatever.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the five percent that just canceled the meeting because they just wanted Sam's attention just tells us the whole story.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right, you know, uh so anyway, I say all of that to say friendships are are it's critical to so many parts of your world.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you have to be your marriage is number one, and um you you need to just guard that with everything you have.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, that's a tangent I went off on.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was a good tangent.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: We needed it because if you've listened, if you've become one of our regular listeners, you know we have tangents because thank you for listening to Jill and our friendship and our podcast.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's a rabbit trail, right?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: The rabbit trails are everywhere.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to someone who feels lonely in ministry right now?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a great question.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, first of all, I would say you're not alone.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have been there.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I have been there more than once.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and at different seasons of my life, I have been there.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I am currently there a little bit, you know, with this whole new role.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, hold on, you know, you you you do not your your aloneness is not just you.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if that makes you feel okay to be in a group of all of us that you're a little bit alone.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: But also I would say uh the Lord knows that, you know, the Lord knows that.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I would also say reach out to your spouse because your spouse might not be understanding what you're feeling.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he or she may not know that you're feeling a little bit alone because he or she is your partner.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh maybe you can schedule a date to go to the grocery store together, you know, or at the kids practice or just whatever.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Goes.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's our I say that because our weekly date was going to the grocery store together when Ross was at practice when I don't care.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: We would just go up every aisle, just just do every aisle.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but you're not alone.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I have literally said this, Sam and I have said this to each other even recently.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that thought does not come from the Lord.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and so just know that the enemy is after you to feel lonely, to feel pity, to have pity on you, and and for you to accept that.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I have been, I have been there, I have done that, I have, and it's it's wrong of me to do that, and I still have to fight against that.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you and your loneliness, it's it's a real feeling, I get it, but the Lord Almighty knows where you are and cares for you, and and He is enough, and and just reach out, reach out to people, text that friend, talk to your spouse, and know that here's Debbie and Jill in some of the most loneliest times of their life, telling you uh, you know, where we are, uh, but you are not alone.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: The enemy number one is real, yeah, and wants to isolate you and feel like no one else feels like this, and that is just a lie.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah because a lot of people are.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we do bring it to God, yeah, he tends to help us get out of that hit, but also he create gives you creative ideas on what to do next.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like this podcast truly is birthed out of our loneliness for community.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're listening to this, just know for us it's even the silver lining of somehow we're reaching some other ministry spouse out there and saying, Hey, you're not alone.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and see what God can do and how you can reach out to other people.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I do want to just mention in closing that it's not only the spouses, but pastors.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking at the Barner research, and 65% of pastors this year have reported feeling lonely or isolated.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, 25, 24 of pastors said they considered leaving ministry in this past year.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that affects spouses too, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: There's just so much.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: We live in a world that you really do have to remind yourself there is a real enemy, but you it's not flesh and blood.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And also that the spirit is just as real, more real, and can change our circumstances and give you creative ways to find that friendship.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: Any other closing thought, Jill?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think that Barna research is really good of pastors feeling lonely.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know Sam has felt that uh a handful of times and have had to fight against that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I remember one time specifically, uh, he was uh on sabbatical uh at one of our churches, actually the only sabbatical he's ever had, uh, and realized, you know, there there's a little bit of, you know, I can do this.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord called me to do this, I'm gonna do it.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I all by myself.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I can I can do this, I'm smart enough, I can figure it out, you know, whatever.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying just Sam that, but you know, no, cool.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: In general, it's the the American I can kind of feel sometimes or whatever.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we forget that's like I know you can raise your hand and say, I need help.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: How have you done this?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or I really don't understand this over here.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you guys understand that?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or what do you guys do here?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when when those walls come down and you find even as a pastor, he did this, uh, found a group of people uh that were pastoring that understood him too, to say, Hey, I I've got a question.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have it all figured out.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm still learning.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I am always learning, you know.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's there's just a sense of community to say, oh, okay, phew, you don't have it figured out either.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's great.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's just this aura of um, oh no, no, you have to know how to get through this church squabble or this decision over here or this staffing issue or just whatever.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you really need people praying for you and checking in on you and asking about how things are going and just being your support system.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it it yeah, you're right.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: It it's it's not just the spouses, it's definitely the pastors as well.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, friends, we don't want to leave you feeling lonely, but we hope that somehow you're not alone in your loneliness.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I do hope that this episode has brought a little light um and made you feel seen and valued and know that it's a process, and hopefully you'll create a community outside of some friendship somewhere, somehow, that God can work through that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I love what you share, Jill.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's so true.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Just to remember, there's also an enemy.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we can not only pray against that, but ask God to bring friendships into our life too.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for listening to this episode of Beside Every Calling.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if you would do us a favor and share this with another ministry spouse, that will help us build this community, hopefully, with like-minded men and women that need a space to feel seen and valued, and perhaps some friendship even on a podcast.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for joining us, and listen, we'll look forward to sharing with you on our next episode.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Bye-bye.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's your sign.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.