Latest / Gimbal Podcast / MKBHD's Producer Reveals the Impressive Systems Behind Their Success

Transcript

MKBHD's Producer Reveals the Impressive Systems Behind Their Success · Gimbal Podcast

0:00
So I interviewed and I ended up getting a job at Mr. Beast.
0:02
What lines will you not cross?
0:03
It's a skill you have to practice.
0:05
What do you mean by script supervising?
0:07
Anyone who proclaims to know what this issue
0:09
will like in six to 10 years is a liar.
0:11
My guess today is the head of production
0:14
for one of the most iconic YouTubers on the entire platform.
0:18
She has worked for both Mr. Beast and now for MKBHD.
0:22
And in this interview, we're going to talk
0:24
about how she landed jobs at such incredible places,
0:28
as well as how to push back and have your voice be heard
0:32
when working for someone who is ultra famous.
0:35
Stick around, this is one of my favorite episodes to date.
0:38
So let's get right into it.
0:39
My first question is kind of the same for everybody,
0:41
but I want to know how you got involved with MKBHD
0:45
and with YouTube in general.
0:46
So my background is, I started off in traditional media.
0:49
I mean, actually I studied psychology
0:51
and neuroscience in college.
0:52
And then I was an NBC page right out of college,
0:55
which was great.
0:56
I got to work at the stay show
0:58
and I rotated through SNL as well.
1:00
Then I went to MTV and MTV,
1:02
I really got to make my own job,
1:03
which is mostly content optimization.
1:05
So I was working with the Snapchat team
1:07
and the social teams doing their paid media.
1:09
And that was really interesting
1:11
because it was also kind of a little bit the beginning
1:14
of when major corporations were starting to catch on
1:17
that digital media was really important.
1:19
Like Buzzfeed was really kind of in its heyday
1:21
and all these major media giants were like,
1:24
we should try to do that too.
1:26
And so I did that for about a year
1:28
and then there was leadership change over
1:31
and they moved me to the YouTube team.
1:32
So I managed YouTube for MTV and MTV news for about a year.
1:36
And then as is so common in traditional media,
1:39
I got laid off and I worked on nonprofits for six months.
1:43
And then I got a job at Serious XM
1:46
where I was hired to be the digital content producer
1:49
for politics talking comedy.
1:51
But when I arrived, I said,
1:53
your YouTube page sucks, can I fix it?
1:55
And they were like, you're okay.
1:58
So over time, I took over management of that channel
2:01
and ended up growing it.
2:03
We got, I got us past a million subscribers
2:06
and started to build out a business case
2:07
as to why they should really invest in YouTube as a platform.
2:10
I ended up meeting with CEO and she agreed
2:12
and so she ended up giving me my own team
2:14
and I became the head of YouTube for the company.
2:16
And so I was covering Serious XM, Pandora, Earwolf,
2:19
Stitcher, all of these kind of subsidiaries
2:22
of Serious XM on YouTube.
2:24
And then, traditional media, again, I got laid off.
2:28
Oh no.
2:29
I was looking and I was just like,
2:31
I am really tired of working in traditional
2:34
and in these really big corporations.
2:36
But although while I was doing all that stuff,
2:38
I had been producing short films and features on the side,
2:41
I knew I like the structure of working for a company
2:44
or at least like being employed somewhere
2:45
versus being freelance.
2:47
And a head hunter, like a talent producer
2:50
for Mr. Beast reached out and offered me an interview.
2:55
So I interviewed and I ended up getting a job at Mr. Beast.
2:58
So I moved to North Carolina the month before my wedding.
3:02
Oh my gosh.
3:04
Worked at Mr. Beast for about nine months.
3:07
And that was great.
3:09
It's these big, massive, huge productions
3:12
and really much more hands-on producing
3:15
than I'd gotten to do at these other
3:16
more traditional media companies.
3:18
What you were in was like, when do you at Mr. Beast?
3:20
I was there from 2023 to 2024.
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Okay, got you, understood.
3:24
And it was one of those things
3:26
where I had done a ton of digital production
3:28
at that point, celebrities, celebrity games,
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promotional stuff, because really like a lot
3:34
of digital content for larger corporations
3:36
is basically the media circuit for a celebrity
3:39
doing a promotional campaign.
3:40
And so this was much more my first time getting
3:42
to produce a original content for YouTube.
3:44
And years prior, actually, when I was between jobs
3:47
between MTV and Sirius XM, I had looked for MKBHD.
3:51
I had looked at the website because he had listed jobs
3:54
and they were for an editor and a sound engineer.
3:57
And I was like, cool, I'm not either of those.
3:59
And I don't know if he'll ever need someone like me
4:02
because not everyone does need a producer
4:04
and not everyone needs that extra hand.
4:06
More often when YouTubers branch out to hire people,
4:09
they're hiring editor, right?
4:11
They're gonna hire an editor or they're gonna hire, you know,
4:13
someone to do additional graphics.
4:15
Like the producer comes once you have enough production going
4:18
on that you need extra hands for organization
4:20
and management and outreach and all that other stuff.
4:23
But when I left Beast, I came back to the city
4:25
and I had a reach out and they gave me a list
4:28
of traditional media companies that they could send me to
4:30
and they're like, oh, also this guy, Mark has brownly,
4:33
have you heard of him?
4:34
And I was like, yes, Kim, send me to him please.
4:36
Wait, you said a headhunter reach out to you,
4:38
just randomly or did you put something out into the internet
4:42
saying, hey, I'm looking for work?
4:44
These are great questions.
4:44
So yeah, so for both Beast and this headhunter,
4:48
I had switched my LinkedIn status to available.
4:51
I had gone from the free version of LinkedIn to LinkedIn premium.
4:55
And whenever I've left a company,
4:58
I tend to do a pretty big wrap up post
5:00
where I think everyone who I worked with
5:03
outlined my accomplishments and very gracious
5:07
regardless of whatever the experience was.
5:08
And I think that those things help
5:11
not only build your network out
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because you're tagging different people
5:15
and you're all social pressing gratitude,
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it was always so important,
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but it also gets you out into the circuit and out.
5:20
Clearly, yeah.
5:22
Luckily at that point, I mean, I've had what seven jobs.
5:25
So even though it's only been nine years,
5:27
I have built up a lot of experience,
5:29
a lot of different companies.
5:30
And Mark has and I jumped on a call
5:32
and I thought that maybe you'd want to talk about consulting
5:35
or I would be like a contractor or something.
5:37
And after we spoke, he coming back one more time
5:40
and was like, great, okay,
5:42
so we're gonna hire you as a producer.
5:44
Basically, you'll manage the calendar in our travel
5:48
and we'll go from there.
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And what was really interesting was that I think truly,
5:53
he initially was just like,
5:54
we need someone to manage the calendar
5:57
and I'll have you be a main channel producer.
5:59
And then once I was here for about five or six months,
6:01
I went to him and I said,
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because I had really at that point
6:05
spoken to everyone within the company
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and gotten to hear everyone's,
6:09
what everyone does,
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but also like where places where you could use support,
6:12
where things where I could help you, right?
6:14
Like I'm here, I want to be useful.
6:16
And I'm good at building out structures
6:19
and organizing people and producing.
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And so over time, I went to Mark has and I said,
6:23
you know, being a main channel producer,
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I don't feel comfortable,
6:27
like actively engaging with the other channels
6:30
and helping them and being proactive
6:32
because I don't want to overset my boundaries.
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Not that anyone here really is super territorial
6:36
or protective, but just for me,
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I feel better knowing that it is within my scope
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to be doing that and not that I'm stepping out of bounds
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anyway.
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And I said, I think I'd be more effective
6:46
if I move into a head of production role
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and he agreed.
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And that changed me to huge difference
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because all of a sudden I felt much more empowered
6:53
to assist with the studio's ideation
6:56
by giving feedback on their videos.
6:58
I now captioned for the way you form podcasts.
7:00
I helped them with their shorts.
7:02
I like now scripts revised for the main channel
7:04
and I give script feedback, but by changing my title,
7:08
it really changed how I approached my job
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and I meant that I was able to get much more in the weeds
7:12
across the whole company and assist with like, you know,
7:15
the autofocus awards and help with the merch shoot
7:18
and there's really anything that happens within the company.
7:21
Now I get to have a hand in and ensure that everyone feels
7:23
like, do the resources you need are we organized
7:25
around top of it?
7:26
Who do you talk to?
7:27
What information can I get you?
7:28
Who do I need to connect to with?
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And that's so much fun.
7:32
Like I absolutely love my job now.
7:34
A lot of this is really building out your role,
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not only to appeal to your skill set and to learning
7:39
as much as you can, but also just a lot of these YouTubers
7:43
are building up something from scratch.
7:44
Like Marquez has never run a company before.
7:46
He's never run a production before.
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He doesn't know what he needs.
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And I think luckily he met me and was like,
7:52
feels like she could help us and I'm very grateful.
7:57
I'm a little surprised because managing the calendar
8:00
and travel is pretty different from what you did before.
8:03
And it sounds like you are basically doing head
8:06
of production type work in traditional media
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and your previous jobs.
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And then you went to calendar and travel
8:13
and then you went back into, you grew back into the role
8:16
that you were doing before.
8:19
Is that kind of how it is?
8:19
Absolutely.
8:20
I think that's true, but I also think
8:22
that people underestimate how much calendar plays a role.
8:26
In terms of Marquez, not only stars
8:28
and everybody on his own channel,
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but he writes and edits a vast majority of them as well.
8:33
Well, he writes everybody out, but he edits quite a lot
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of them as well.
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Then you also have the art department
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who's making the different thumbnails and intros.
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They often need him for.
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You've got all the different ads that he has to be part of.
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He's part of the studio shoot.
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He's part of Wayform and Autofocus.
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So there's actually a lot on his plate.
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And what being in charge of calendar meant was that I basically
8:52
told Marquez I was like, I'm going to be annoying.
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I have to know what is happening all the time.
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So I'm going to check in with you every morning
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and every night to know where you progressed
9:03
and how far you are in your script,
9:05
what you're thinking for tomorrow,
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so that I can then communicate that out to the whole team.
9:09
The only way this works is if we're all communicating.
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So what that meant was that I was the most informed person
9:14
in the studio because I was the one whose job it was
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to know where Marquez was in his progress on a concept.
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And so while of course, Marquez is a good communicator,
9:25
there's only so much communicating he can be doing
9:27
when he's also writing and editing and shooting
9:29
all the time.
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And so having myself be in that role where all of a sudden,
9:32
I'm the one who is communicating outward to most of the team
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and meant that there was a lot of really valuable information
9:37
that I was not only aware of but then getting to distribute.
9:40
And so I think that when you hear calendar,
9:43
it sounds, like it sounds like a system work.
9:47
But I kind of knew that that was more so an indication
9:50
that, OK, there is organizational needs here
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that aren't being met yet.
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So I'm going to come in to do that because that's
9:57
what he is aware he needs help with.
10:00
And I know that I can then build that out into something
10:02
more functional.
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And I think also, luckily, this place is really collaborative.
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And so once I, I think once they kind of, I got my sea legs,
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they started to see my work, it was like, great, yeah, OK, yeah.
10:13
Absolutely, you can give feedback on scripts.
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And you should be in the room for this thing.
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And I was like, the more I asked for access,
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the more they're willing to give me access.
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And that's not true everywhere.
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And I think that that is a really, it's a skill
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you have to practice, especially if you've
10:28
been turned down at different companies
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where you have to ask for access.
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Because if you're lucky and I've had amazing bosses,
10:35
if you're lucky, bosses will offer it to you.
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But especially at a startup, you've got to kind of self-advocate.
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And so no one's going to bolster you as much as you are.
10:44
I love that.
10:45
Does that have something to do with it being an in-person work
10:48
environment?
10:49
Is that something that you advocate for?
10:50
Is it necessary?
10:51
In this particular setting and job,
10:55
I do think being in-person is faster.
10:57
I think that it allows for a lot more collaboration.
10:59
I can just walk over to someone's desk and talk to them.
11:02
I think in production, being hybrid can be really hard.
11:05
Because especially with a digital company
11:08
where things move so quickly, you just
11:10
might be having a conversation at your desk
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that then becomes a thing that you're doing very fast.
11:16
And I will say, it super depends on the kind of YouTuber
11:19
you are, or you have, or you work for, and your job.
11:23
If you're an editor, I don't think you have to be in-person.
11:26
If you are an audio engineer, if you're a graphic designer,
11:29
I mean, Michael was one of the first hires of this company.
11:31
I don't think he and Mark has ever spoke on the phone
11:33
for the first three years.
11:34
I think that if you have a post-production job,
11:38
you don't always have to be in office.
11:40
It isn't a necessity.
11:41
And if you're a producer and most of what you do is pre-pro,
11:44
maybe you also don't have to be in-person all the time.
11:46
Tell me about your usual daily life.
11:49
Like walk me through what your tasks are,
11:52
what any given day might look like.
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Come in, review a script from Marquez
11:58
for the video that we're shooting that day.
11:59
Go in and script supervise while we film it.
12:02
What do you mean by script supervising?
12:04
So, Andrew and I both fact check Marquez's scripts
12:08
and ensure that everything is accurate
12:11
to whatever kind of reviewer guide we have.
12:13
And then also occasionally we'll add,
12:17
hey, I think you might want to mention this here.
12:19
I think that, you know, you mentioned this over lunch
12:21
and I think it could be a good addition here.
12:23
Hey, what about this part of the phone?
12:24
So we'll give some feedback and then fact check it.
12:27
Then while we're shooting, we are reading along
12:29
with the script while he's reading
12:31
while he's speaking the camera.
12:32
So we're making sure that he didn't either
12:33
misquote something or skip a section while he's working.
12:38
So kind of, honestly, the same kind of scripts revision
12:40
you do on traditional set as well.
12:42
So making sure that the background is consistent
12:45
and that he's reading the script appropriately.
12:47
Okay.
12:48
Because also Marquez doesn't have a teleprompter.
12:50
He will read off his phone, memorize it,
12:52
and then read the camera.
12:53
Nice.
12:54
Which is an insane skill,
12:55
because it comes across naturally.
12:58
It comes across naturally.
12:59
And it's very natural.
13:00
And I'm like, what about a teleprompter?
13:02
And he doesn't look, he doesn't look.
13:04
He does this and it works.
13:06
Okay, good enough.
13:07
So film a video, make sure the set's all set for that.
13:11
I might work with the design team
13:13
to ensure that the set is built and ready to go
13:15
before we go in there.
13:15
Then shoot, scripts revise,
13:18
Marquez will either then edit himself
13:20
or give it off to Mariah.
13:22
I will go over to the studio team.
13:24
We might discuss an upcoming video
13:26
or plan an upcoming shoot.
13:29
Or alternatively depending where they are in their edit process,
13:32
they'll send me an edit of their video to get feedback on.
13:35
So I'll give notes on that about storyline,
13:38
speeds, humor, everything.
13:40
Send them back to them.
13:41
I could get a short from the waveform team
13:43
to add captions to and edit down a bit.
13:46
I'll check you with Marquez about our schedule
13:48
for the upcoming days to see what he has in the docket.
13:53
If anything has changed from what I've laid out recently,
13:55
I'll communicate that out to the team.
13:57
And then I work with our head of partnerships
14:00
to see if we have any add-introgations or sales things
14:02
that we need to get done.
14:03
So any additional shots we need to have captured.
14:06
And then I'll work with Marquez
14:07
and whoever's editing it to ensure
14:08
that we get all the B-roll shots we need.
14:11
So that's also working with the design team
14:12
and the production teams to make sure that we get all the B-roll,
14:16
get into the video.
14:17
Then once Marquez finishes or Mariah finishes, he uploads it.
14:21
I get it into our dubbing software
14:23
to get it done to multiple languages.
14:24
Once that's done, I upload that to the channel.
14:27
And then at the end of each week,
14:28
Marquez and I sit down and we talk through the next two weeks
14:31
to a month of what's coming up.
14:33
So I can ensure that every channel gets what they need from him.
14:37
So I'll talk to every channel head
14:38
and then collaborate and coordinate on, okay.
14:40
So we have not a focus shoot.
14:42
The car comes in this day, the car gets picked up this day.
14:45
We have a podcast going up.
14:47
We have a bonus podcast going up.
14:48
We have a studio intro going.
14:49
We've got a studio ad read going.
14:51
Like all of the different pieces
14:53
plus Marquez is a pro fidget player.
14:55
So making sure that he is,
14:56
we've got that account for.
14:58
Luckily, what I love is that it's a lot of both
15:02
organization and collaboration.
15:03
But then also I get to do creative input and I love that.
15:06
Could you walk us through like the lifecycle of a product
15:10
that you guys are working with?
15:12
For example, you guys have like an unboxing video
15:15
or like how soon do you get it before the release
15:18
in order to like get it out in time?
15:20
Like the same product might be in a video and then a podcast
15:23
and then featured in other channels.
15:25
Like can you walk us through the lifecycle of that?
15:27
Totally, I mean, I think that what's funny about this
15:29
is that it really depends on the product and that company.
15:32
So like with an iPhone, for example,
15:34
they flew out for the iPhone event.
15:35
They don't get the product beforehand.
15:38
They arrive at the event.
15:39
They hear the keynote.
15:40
Marquez will then go back to his hotel room,
15:43
write his impressions script,
15:45
which is just the impressions of what the phone's gonna be like,
15:48
film that, edit it himself,
15:49
same day, get it out the door.
15:51
While that's happening, well, he's maybe in meetings
15:53
where he's writing a script,
15:54
the rest the team is building the set in the hotel room.
15:57
In the case of this year,
15:58
the waveform podcast also went out there with them with him.
16:00
So they recorded like a bonus pod on the street
16:03
and then they recorded a fully podcast on site
16:06
in their studio.
16:07
And then when Marquez came home,
16:09
he came back, we got all of the new iPhones
16:12
after that point.
16:13
So then he decided what order he wants to review the phones in
16:16
because he can't test all of them at the same time.
16:19
So he takes that phone.
16:22
He does the unboxing video when he opens all the phones
16:24
and then he will test, right?
16:26
Listen, in this case, it was the error for a week.
16:28
Then release that at embargo,
16:31
for other ones, I would say it's a little bit shorter
16:36
because we will get the phones before the announcement.
16:39
So we might get a phone a week earlier,
16:42
have the announcement.
16:43
Marquez will do his impressions video at embargo
16:46
and then we'll review the phone a week later.
16:48
For people who don't know embargo is?
16:51
Oh, yes, sorry, embargo.
16:53
So you might have noticed that like all of your favorite
16:54
tech reviewers released the video at the same time.
16:57
It's because that is the exact time the company has said,
16:59
hey, you can talk about our phone.
17:02
And for a lot of these companies, they might say,
17:04
hey, you can talk about your first impressions of the phone
17:07
on Wednesday at 8 AM at Eastern.
17:09
So that means no playing with the software really,
17:12
that no camera review, this is just what you think of the hardware,
17:15
what you think of what they've talked about,
17:17
the promises they've made.
17:18
And then a full review comes out a week or two later
17:21
when the second embargo, which is again,
17:23
when they say you want to talk about more about the phone,
17:25
gets released so you can talk about the software,
17:27
the cameras, the texting, the new AI feature,
17:30
all of that comes later.
17:31
So the impressions are more about what's been promised
17:34
and then the review is, okay, but let's put it to the test.
17:37
I mean, you're a well oiled machine.
17:38
Marquez has been doing it for what over a decade now
17:42
and your team is so well organized
17:44
and everything just seems so efficient.
17:45
How do you keep things fresh?
17:46
How do you experiment?
17:48
How do you keep it fun and you to be?
17:50
The great thing is that Marquez loves what he does.
17:54
And I think that with YouTubers who stop loving what they do,
17:56
you can kind of feel it in the content a bit.
17:59
So Marquez, I don't think is capable of making a video
18:02
but it's something he's not excited about.
18:04
And so the great thing is that a lot of the inspiration comes
18:07
from what is he intrigued by by the same time
18:10
if it's kind of a slow cycle, it can be tough.
18:13
What I think is great is that throughout the year,
18:15
there'll be a topic of discussion, right?
18:17
So back when before iPhones went to RCS,
18:20
this green and blue bubble debacle, you know,
18:23
what, why are they green, why are they blue,
18:26
and how does it, right, has interact?
18:28
I'm sure that was a topic that he had on our content board
18:30
for a while and then once there was a low or a new cycle
18:33
that it made sense to do it with,
18:35
wrote the script and pushed it out.
18:36
So oftentimes when things are slower,
18:39
it's the chance for him to think about,
18:42
what kind of video essay,
18:43
what kind of topic area is interesting him?
18:44
Even if there are no products to review,
18:46
what is something that is kind of intriguing
18:49
in the technology community right now that I can discuss?
18:51
I think that a huge thing that I do
18:54
is I consume content not just from the technique.
18:57
Oftentimes, I'm looking somewhere else
18:59
and I'll see a short idea and I think,
19:01
oh, here's how we could adapt that
19:02
and make it make sense for our videos.
19:04
I think that if you consume too much of your own stuff,
19:08
you just end up cannibalizing all the same kinds of content
19:11
and it gets not only very boring,
19:13
but it also doesn't allow you to meet anyone new.
19:16
You can't make any new audience members,
19:19
you can't find anything interesting or reinvigorating
19:22
if you're basically doing what AI does,
19:24
which is just pulling from the same thing
19:26
over and over and over again.
19:28
You need to expose yourself to mainstream media,
19:31
watch some television, watch their content avenues,
19:33
watch some TikTok if you're on YouTube.
19:35
I think that reading a book,
19:37
having exposure to different kinds of content
19:39
and different kinds of media
19:40
can only improve your content.
19:42
And I think that being exposed to different kinds
19:44
of ideas and different approaches is massive.
19:47
I think it's really easy to get shoved into an echo chamber,
19:50
not only of your own opinion,
19:51
but of the same kind of content.
19:53
You see it, YouTube's algorithm struggles with it sometimes.
19:55
We're like, if you like one thing, they're like,
19:57
cool, you'll get 17 of that and nothing else
20:00
and you're amended.
20:01
I didn't get hard to get pulled out of it.
20:03
And so I think it's really important
20:05
to proactively pursue that.
20:07
At the office, do you think about the YouTube algorithm a lot?
20:09
Do you really lean into optimizing every thumbnail
20:13
to squeeze an extra percentage point of the CTR
20:16
and that kind of stuff?
20:17
No.
20:19
I mean, no one, yes.
20:20
I think that we are all aware of it
20:23
and we do when something doesn't perform
20:25
as well as we thought it would, we do examine it.
20:28
And if there is an opportunity where
20:30
our thumbnail designers have a gap in their schedule,
20:34
we will often be like, hey, what have we
20:35
tried a second alt on this?
20:36
Let's go back to an old video and see if maybe we changed
20:38
around the title and thumbnail a little bit.
20:40
There is definitely an eye towards optimization
20:42
whenever we design anything.
20:43
It is about how do we convey this message clearly
20:46
and in the style of MKBHD?
20:47
And so I don't want to say that we don't care
20:48
about the algorithm because we absolutely do
20:50
and we do notice when it changes.
20:52
But we are not optimizing exclusively for the algorithm.
20:55
I think that that is how you end up with thumbnails
20:59
to look at everyone else's and titles
21:01
that might feel borderline clickbadi
21:03
or topics that feel clickbadi.
21:05
And I think that what is unfortunate
21:07
is that you can tell when channels start struggling,
21:10
you can see that they start to adapt their content
21:13
or the presentation of their content
21:16
to what appears to be the algorithm meta.
21:19
And I know that whenever I see that for a channel
21:20
that maybe I liked but I've stopped watching as much
21:22
and I can see them starting to do that, it turns me off.
21:25
Because what it tells me is you're not doing your identity
21:28
and what you like, you're following the meta
21:30
and I can't blame them for it.
21:32
These channels are longer to someone in their bedroom,
21:34
they employ people.
21:36
But these all of these channels are many companies.
21:38
So how can you not try to follow the meta
21:41
and do whatever you can to keep your ship afloat?
21:43
But at the same time, I think part of what makes Marquez
21:46
and specifically Marquez's niche,
21:47
so important is his identity is what this channel is.
21:51
And that is the visual identity, it is his opinions.
21:54
And so if you as a viewer sort of feel
21:56
that starting to waver, I'm not gonna trust you as much.
21:58
I'm not gonna want to engage with your opinion
22:00
as much because it feels like you are moving
22:02
with the way the wind blows.
22:03
And so I think that you have to be aware of it.
22:06
It's important to optimize for the consumer
22:10
and for an audience's eyes.
22:12
But I think that if you allow the algorithm to lead you
22:16
as opposed to work with it,
22:18
it can really have an impact on your creations.
22:20
It just sounds like brand trust.
22:23
Like even more than his personality,
22:25
but like the trust people have in him and your brand
22:29
is like one of the biggest things at MKVHD.
22:32
Having your audience's trust and their belief in you
22:35
is a huge part of it.
22:37
And I think that that can get very muddy.
22:39
Like Marquez is kind of an incredible thing
22:41
where he is built to a lot of trust
22:43
without making his identity the channel.
22:46
So I think it can be very hard
22:47
is that people have a channel based around story times
22:50
or who they are as a person or their day-to-day life
22:54
or their job or whatever it is.
22:55
And then if that job changes
22:57
or they change as a person a little bit
22:59
or now they're a parent
23:01
as opposed to just like a teenager in their room,
23:03
then the audience is like, you've changed.
23:05
And it's like, yeah, it's been 15 years,
23:07
I hope I've changed.
23:09
But like with what Marquez does,
23:12
you care about his opinion,
23:14
but I don't think anyone would be like,
23:15
oh, I know Marquez is favorite breakfast food.
23:18
Yeah, that's a great point.
23:19
Like they say to like lean into your personality
23:21
and he actually like he is very good at revealing
23:25
a very small sliver of his personality,
23:27
but there's so much of his personal life
23:29
that probably nobody knows.
23:31
I certainly don't know.
23:32
I've been a fan for 10 years.
23:33
I was just wondering if this was because of like
23:35
the nature of the content is like a review channel
23:37
as opposed to whatever one else is doing.
23:40
I think it's probably part of it for sure,
23:42
though I think you see like a Mr. Who's the Boss
23:43
who makes content about his home and his kitchen.
23:46
And I think he did a really like amazing drone show
23:48
for his wedding, like that there are also ways
23:50
to even as a reviewer to bring your personal life
23:53
into the content if you want to.
23:55
And I think that that is possibly a slope
23:58
that can be slippery where you don't realize
24:00
how much of your life you're putting out
24:02
and how much of it you're exposing people's opinions
24:04
and thoughts and insights.
24:06
But I think that this ability to say,
24:09
like, you know, who else is a great example?
24:10
I drew good in and Danny Gonzalez
24:12
to people who I love watching.
24:14
And I feel like I know a little bit about them,
24:17
but not that much.
24:18
You have to make that decision actively.
24:21
Otherwise, I think it's very easy for it to slide.
24:23
Being a review channel, you must have a very unique relationship
24:26
with brand partners and sponsors
24:28
compared to most of the YouTube industry.
24:30
Where are your guidelines?
24:33
Like where are you very firm?
24:34
What lines will you not cross?
24:36
How do you maintain strong relationships
24:38
while also maintaining that trust with the viewer
24:40
that you're not getting paid off or anything like that?
24:43
I don't decide our ad reads,
24:44
though I do help with them.
24:46
I will say that as a company,
24:47
I think that our consumer trust is first and foremost.
24:51
So for the main channel, especially,
24:54
it's about no phone company can sponsor us,
24:57
no network can sponsor us, right?
24:59
Like it can't be anything that we might review that product.
25:01
For the podcast, it can be a little bit different
25:04
because ad reads are just different in that medium.
25:06
But I would say that for the main channel,
25:07
especially in the past year,
25:08
we've really focused on our really big brand partnerships
25:11
where bridge and deep red have been channel sponsors
25:14
and channel partners for years and years and years.
25:16
And they're a product we really believe in.
25:17
And they are teams that we work well with
25:20
and who we trust and they trust us.
25:21
And I think that has really been the primary focus
25:24
of what we want to be promoting
25:26
is things that we believe in and we trust
25:29
so that you can believe and trust us too.
25:31
Yeah, deep red and ridge are interesting ones
25:33
because they're much much bigger
25:35
than just a single individual video sponsor,
25:38
which I think a lot of people,
25:39
especially in our audience and even in our network,
25:42
they deal with sponsors on an individual level.
25:45
Do you have any insight about how to have those conversations,
25:48
bigger conversations like,
25:49
hey, let's do a bigger brand deal
25:51
than just a single video?
25:53
I mean, I think it's important to know what you
25:55
or your creator is open to because I think that
25:58
part of the point I was making earlier about podcasts
26:00
are a medium where ad reads are like commercials.
26:03
So even though the podcast are hopefully believes in
26:05
and is emphasized that they like it,
26:08
you know it's an ad read.
26:09
And I think that with larger campaigns
26:11
when you get products from YouTubers
26:13
or even honestly like TikTokers,
26:15
there's been this very interesting shift
26:16
in terms of like the elasticity of,
26:18
is this just a thing you like or is it an ad read?
26:20
I think that that can get slippery
26:21
for some audience members.
26:23
But I think that when it comes to approaching
26:25
and outside company, they think is what do you want out of it?
26:28
And what do they want out of it?
26:29
We've had people come to us with full campaigns
26:32
that we then have to say we are not ready or prepared
26:35
to give you as much as you want to have us do.
26:39
I think that if you go to a company that you believe in,
26:42
laying out, here's what we'll need to do for you.
26:43
Here's the price range we're thinking of
26:45
are all really important.
26:46
I think most important is building up that relationship, right?
26:49
If you like that product,
26:50
maybe you mentioned the product before you're sponsored by it
26:53
as just an aside, reach out.
26:54
So hey, I use this, I want to be a part of it.
26:57
Let's start talking.
26:58
I think also being aware of how much your audience
27:01
and platform is worth, right?
27:03
So a company might be like, yeah,
27:04
we'll absolutely do a campaign with you.
27:06
And you know, that'll be like three YouTube videos,
27:08
two Instagram feed posts,
27:09
one asset for our content feed and then a commercial.
27:11
But you're getting paid the amount for those two ad spots
27:15
and not for everything else.
27:16
And I think it's really important to be aware of the worth
27:19
that you're offering because you're offering a lot.
27:21
And especially if you associate,
27:22
that's what that I just mentioned,
27:24
six different points of contact between you and the company.
27:27
I think it's important to be aware of how much your audience
27:30
is going to associate you with that brand.
27:32
If you do a larger campaign,
27:34
your identity is going to be tied to that company
27:36
for at least a little bit.
27:37
So you've got to make sure that you believe in the product,
27:40
trust the company and trust that it'll be applied
27:42
in ways that you want it to be and not all of a sudden
27:44
you're like on a billboard in New York City
27:46
and you didn't agree to that.
27:47
Right.
27:48
I just think that makes it sound like this all very nefarious.
27:51
But I think it's important to know on both sides of the equation
27:53
what's being asked of you and what you're willing to deliver.
27:56
And I think to build up good relationships between you
27:58
and whatever partnerships means that,
28:00
there's channels that have been sponsored by Audible
28:01
for six years.
28:03
Like the best kind of sponsor is one that you believe in,
28:06
they believe in you and you've got a good rapport.
28:08
It's been a great interview by the way.
28:09
Thank you very much.
28:10
This is ultimately like the goal of the podcast
28:11
is to have like the people who often don't get put on camera
28:14
because there's so much knowledge shared,
28:15
there's so much knowledge behind the scenes
28:17
and having somebody like yourself be able to share that
28:19
with people is so valuable, every minute is so valuable.
28:21
I mean, I think that like also this is an industry
28:24
that like didn't have as many behind the scenes people
28:26
until like this is true.
28:28
This is true.
28:28
This is true.
28:29
But like most independent creators
28:31
didn't have huge teams until pretty recently.
28:34
Like since COVID, yeah, I agree.
28:36
And especially when every channel is effectively
28:38
its own little startup, you have so many people
28:41
who are starting this for the first time
28:42
from scratch to infrastructure.
28:44
And so I think that there's gonna be a really wide range
28:47
of experiences and a lot of people who are like,
28:49
how do I get in and a lot of creators who are like,
28:52
how do I find someone good?
28:54
I've got these people like approaching me
28:56
from random Instagram handles,
28:58
but I have no idea if they know what they're doing.
29:00
So it does become a referral game
29:03
or in my very, very lucky case, a head hunter game.
29:06
But that I think is pretty rare.
29:09
And so I think that having ways to connect
29:12
to how to deal with creators is a big deal.
29:15
Especially when like me where I didn't,
29:16
I've made stuff myself.
29:17
I mean, I do make stuff myself,
29:18
but like I would, I've never wanted to be a YouTuber myself.
29:21
Right.
29:21
And I think a lot of people feel like,
29:22
well, I'll be a YouTuber and people will see my stuff
29:24
and they'll reach out to me and then I can work for one.
29:26
And that is a way in, but not everyone wants to do that.
29:29
So it's important to realize that there are ways
29:31
in that aren't that.
29:32
It's so different now than it was when I started.
29:35
TikTok didn't exist.
29:36
Snapchat was barely, didn't have discovery yet.
29:39
Like I think that that's the biggest thing is that
29:41
these platforms are all evolving and changing so much.
29:43
And the way that traditional media reacts to them,
29:46
like when I started in YouTube,
29:47
Netflix couldn't be nominated for Mee's
29:50
or Academy Awards because it was a streaming service.
29:52
It didn't count as either of those things.
29:54
And so I think that's the big thing is that anyone
29:57
who proclaims to know what this industry
29:59
will like in six to 10 years is a liar.
30:01
They don't.
30:02
Right.
30:03
It's like you never know what the next player is gonna be,
30:05
you know, Gen Z right now is, or did Alpha even
30:08
are like the cool young up in commerce,
30:09
but the next generation will be like,
30:11
oh my God, can you believe they used to just scroll
30:13
on like a vertical feed?
30:14
That's crazy.
30:16
Like I think that everyone is a little bit cringy
30:19
to the people who afford them.
30:20
And so I think that's what's gonna be interesting
30:22
is like, okay, is it even faster, more simulation,
30:25
more intensity?
30:26
Is it gonna be kind of a rejection of that?
30:28
And people, you know, only use,
30:30
I don't know, headsets or sunglasses?
30:33
Is it gonna be people turning back to books?
30:36
Like I, you know, doubt that.
30:38
But I think that the bigger point,
30:40
I'm making it, I have no idea what the industry will look like
30:44
in a few years.
30:45
My hope and my belief is that YouTube will continue
30:48
to become more and more respected
30:50
as you will realize the level of production
30:53
and the level of skill that's being put
30:55
into all of these channels and into all of this work.
30:58
And the amount of eyeballs that are being given
31:00
to these non-traditional platforms,
31:03
which right now I think a lot of social media
31:05
sees as a full of marketing versus a platform for content
31:09
because the difference with YouTube
31:11
and any other other places, there's no barrier to entry.
31:14
And a lot of social media loves to get keeper.
31:17
And so I think that that can be.
31:19
Oh true.
31:21
It'll be like, right?
31:22
I mean, I think that'll be an interesting evolution, right?
31:25
Is as you have the Good Mythical Mornings and the Hot Ones
31:30
and the Michelle Kare is advocating for mainstream recognition
31:33
if more and more of that will grow
31:35
until all of a sudden it is this extremely flat field
31:38
where it's all just entertainment or it's all just content.
31:40
And I think that there's a lot of discussion to be had
31:43
about if that's a good or a bad thing.
31:44
Should content and art be considered the same thing
31:47
is as a tough conversation, but I think it is interesting.
31:51
And it's a thing we're going to grapple with,
31:53
especially as AI and as AI develops
31:57
and there's more and more ways to make art more and more easily.
32:00
The definition of what is art will change
32:02
and what is content and what is a creator
32:05
are all going to evolve.
32:06
It's funny, like YouTube is tough to talk about
32:08
because it's like so all-encompassing,
32:10
like it does encompass art, it encompasses content.
32:15
So I find it hard to talk about,
32:16
but the way that you just summarized it was very concise.
32:19
One of the most concise ways I think I've ever heard.
32:21
Okay Harper, thank you so much for being on the show.
32:25
I asked the same question to end it off with everybody.
32:28
Who is a creator that's on your radar
32:30
that you're really liking right now?
32:32
Oh wow, what a great, you know, Carter PCs.
32:35
He's a tech creator, he's not that up in common.
32:38
He's almost two million subscribers,
32:39
but he is a short creator.
32:41
And I love his stuff.
32:42
I watch basically all of it.
32:44
He's a great blend of comedy and tech content
32:47
that I really, really enjoy.
32:48
And I think that's a lot of fun.
32:49
So I really, from the tech side of things, I enjoy him.
32:53
And then in terms of a video SAS,
32:54
who I think is really talented, Shavon Breer Aguilar,
32:57
she's got about 70,000 subscribers
32:59
and she does these deep dives into novels
33:02
from feminist lens that I really think
33:03
is a kind of cool artistic breakdown of books.
33:07
And I really enjoy that.
33:09
On my less intellectual side,
33:11
I also really enjoy celebrity memoir book club,
33:13
which I believe is now re-titled as Good Noticings.
33:16
Both are just great insight into books
33:19
or perspectives that I had thought about before.
33:21
So I really enjoy both.
33:22
Well, thank you for being on the show.
33:23
Thank you for sharing all the knowledge that you have.
33:25
Thank you guys.
33:26
This is really fun.
33:27
I always enjoy when people get to talk more about YouTube.
33:31
I feel like so often people ask me my job.
33:34
And I say YouTube when they're either very excited
33:36
or very bored by that answer.
33:38
And then I get very excitedly just like,
33:41
spew information or joy in them.
33:43
And they're like, yeah, okay, I get it.
33:46
So it's great to talk to people who are also interested in it.
33:48
And this is a cool idea.
33:49
This is a really great way to get a lot of perspectives
33:52
and voices on the industry out there.
33:54
Okay, thank you very much for watching
33:56
or listening to this episode.
33:57
If you want to hear more from the MKBHD workforce,
34:01
I actually interviewed Eric Villa,
34:03
who is the head of production for The Studio,
34:06
which is MKBHD's Behind the Scenes channel.
34:09
So you can check that out by clicking the top line
34:11
of the description.
34:12
If you're new here, think about subscribing
34:14
or leaving a review.
34:15
Thank you very much and we'll see you next time.