Latest / Practice Ground / Ken Jee: What Elite Athletes Teach Us About AI, Trust, and the Dip | Exponential Athletes Habits
Transcript
- Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: So Ken, hey man, thanks thanks again for joining me. dude, you're you have a mix of things that it makes you very interesting. you're a data scientist, you now recently an author. you're a creator, a builder, building a few things that we've talked about. And you've also spent a lot of time studying athletes, working with athletes. You I find your podcast, the exponential athletes very interesting. So, welcome. And I have a couple of questions just to get a give you a sense of what I'm doing. writing a book for next is gonna be coming out in 2026, and it's mainly about finding meaning as we go deeper into this automation age that we're in. I like to say that Q1 just finished. Q two is about to is starting. And that when I say Q two, the second quarter of the century. and and I'm thinking more around what's going to be what we're going to be doing and building and living, how we're going to be living in the next three quarters, right? But the goal of if someone picks up this book in twenty ninety nine and they're reading it and they're like, wow, all these insights from these experts, it are still quite applicable to how we're living today, right? So, okay, if you don't mind, just quick about yourself. How did you get how did you get to this point where you're, working, you're the head of data science or I I think Scouts sports group. I don't know if I'm saying that properly, you have your podcast where you're the host of the exponential athletes. You get access to all these top coaches. including, someone like Michael Phelps coach. how did you get into this space? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, so first, thank you for for having me. this is always a pleasure to chat with you, but also to to talk about the things that I'm very interested in. this is a topic of where we're going in the future, that that I'm personally fascinated about. I've I've actually recently pivoted a lot of the content that I'm producing about, hey, how do we prepare for a world where AI is essentially built into everything that we do, into our lifestyle and our relationships and all of this stuff. to to answer your question more directly, honestly I just have been following my interests and the things that I also had a unique advantage in. So I any success that I may or may not have had is a function of being really interested in something and having or developing aptitude in that. So, let's take for example, learning data science. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I I was Very interested first in sports. So I wanted to understand sports performance. And to me, one of the best mediums to do that was through data analysis. So in order to be able to evaluate and understand sports performance better, I started to understand the tools for doing that, which are large programming languages, statistics, whatever it might be. and I just kept pulling on that thread. I realized maybe bigger picture longer term that. Analytics don't necessarily tell us everything about sports performance, right? So I started making this podcast, Exponential Athlete, where I'm doing case studies. I'm really diving deep into what makes the greatest athletes of all time successful. And that really just kept pulling on that thread around visualization and that practice. And that led me to writing the book because it's something that I was looking for and I didn't see it out there, and I Why not why not me? Why shouldn't I be the one to to write something like that? Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, no. Nifemi Aluko: in terms of my content and my work. well my work is a a function of that. And then the content that I was producing is very similar, right? I I basically had an interview when I was applying for data science jobs like ten years ago, maybe longer. And I I had this question on the screen and it was like a prompt and I had to record an answer to it. And it was the most embarrassing thing I've done in my life. I was fumbling all over myself. It w it was I I was like, I would never hire that person after I watched the video back. And so I was like, well, I want to get better at this skill. I also am really interested in this data science field. And I'm also interested in teaching. I've always viewed myself as a teacher. Why don't I combine those things and to start just making some videos about where I'm at and and my progress and what I learned about getting into the field. And so I realized I liked that. I realized I loved the storytelling aspect. I love stepping into that teaching role. And that was the the jump start to all of the the content creation and the brand that I have now in that space. So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Nice man. Nifemi Aluko: yeah, really just finding a thread and pulling on it and see where it goes is is or where how Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you, man. Nifemi Aluko: I've gotten where I am. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah. And the thing you said about following your interest is something that I'm very big on. sometimes you hear people say, Just follow your passion and follow your interest and it sounds like some empty words. But truly for me, I found like if I really want to learn something, I have to be interested in it. Right. And that's what's helping with some like I'm an engineer, but I'm interested in music. So I studied musicians. I wrote a book about musicians, then I started writing some more. so there seems to be from what you're saying, there's this sense of I just want to improve, right? Where you say you recorded a video and you were like, ooh, that was bad. but it didn't deter you. You were like, all right, let me take take up this practice to improve. And I do see that. Obviously with a lot of athletes, right? And kind going before we even go deeper into some of these questions about AI automation and the way we're thinking about developing meaning in life. I was watching a podcast of yours. I think you were interviewing Michael Phelps coach, Bob Bowman, and very interesting. and I think he said something about it was like delayed gratification is something sports teaches you, right? And you're building you if you're building anything and you want to get through, you have to almost practice this thing about delayed gratification, right? How has that shown up in your life? How how have you used this mindset of just keep improving, but also knowing that the gratification might not come right away. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, honestly, that's something I've struggled with. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: particularly with content, right? You have numbers that immediately give you feedback. If the numbers don't go up, it can be a little bit demoralizing. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: but but on the other side of that, I think all the great things come on the other side of the dip. There's this lag that happens. Let's take the the newsletter hero stuff that I'm doing now. we're seeing growth, we're seeing these steady things. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's all gonna happen at once. And and that's how I think Seth Godin, he's like a a really well-known marketing guy, he describes this concept called the dip, where basically at the beginning, it's so exciting, everything's happened, and then you experience this dip, and a lot of people quit in the dip. But all the great things happen on the other side of the dip once you've worked through it. And I think for me, just learning how to love that part, because in retrospect. You always look back and you're like, I remember when it was hard and I loved that. I love the grind and these types of things. but in the moment it very much doesn't feel like that. so Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I again, this is something I I get to work on too is like Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I I wouldn't say I quit when things get things get difficult, but I have the urge to tinker or to adjust or to try something new. And Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I think that that serves me, and it also doesn't serve me, right? Where it serves me where when I if you want to improve, I think you always have to test and adjust. and I also think it's helped me find my interest very well. Because Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: in order to find the things that you want, you have to explore. but there's a certain point where exploit makes the most sense and really like going all in on something, Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: gives you the greatest returns. And I I I struggle to to go in all in on things. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. And also knowing Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: And maybe that's why yeah, then. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: And also knowing when, stopping the exploration to move into that next phase, right? And I think that for me that is the struggle where it's just like, do I keep testing or have I found something that I just double down on? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. And I I think as I've gotten better, I've gotten older, I've gotten better at this. not necessarily related to my age, but when I started thinking about what what I really wanted, what my long term vision is, who I wanted to be, the stuff in the intermediary, like the stuff I'm doing now, if it's lined up to that, it's something I can continue to do for a long time. And so Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: that that to me is really important. for the example of the Exponential Athlete podcast. it's something I'm just fascinated in. I'll probably do it for a long time. that doesn't mean I have to always be focusing on it full time for now. Right. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: There's something that I think is very real about having the right opportunity at the right time. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I was I was like thinking about this. So for example, Uber, right? debatable if it's like profitable, but very large company service a lot of people use. they could not have been built before GPS got dramatically better, right? And so someone working on that, but once it did get better and there's an opportunity in the market, there's so many competitors in that space now. And so Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: thinking about that, it's like, okay, AI is A a technology that I view very similarly to that improvement in the GPS, and there's so much opportunity there. For me, I can still have all these other things that I'm very passionate about, but sometimes I think it's important to grasp the opportunities while they're present and like go all into those. And so that's Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah yeah. Nifemi Aluko: something I wrestle with is like, hey, I want to do certain things for the rest of my life, but I also recognize that there are windows that come and go. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: And I look at this as as a window, similar to not necessarily a bubble, but similar to the to the the the web the dot com boom, the the like crypto web three Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yep, make that easy right. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: boom. but I think that this is gonna be longer lasting, more sustainable. I'm Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I'm not necessarily saying that I wanna start a AI first company, but I Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: think that what AI enables in terms of building is is unbelievably revolutionary. So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: yeah, so there's this like it's like, well, in the short term, these things align with my vision in the long term, even if I have to put some of the things aside that I know I'm gonna do forever. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Any Nifemi Aluko: you don't always get these windows, is basically the gist of what I'm saying. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. So I I I wanna ask you a a deep question, right? Where it's anchored even to some of the stuff like I was watching on your podcast, right? And Michael Phelps coach said this thing about you have to have this long term vision, right? It's blurry, but you have to have it because that's what helps you in the ups and downs. And this long-term vision could be eight gold Olympic medals, right? But then in the short term, you have to break it down to okay, but just c come swim 100 meter lap every day. Make sure you do that every day, right? And I think for maybe athletes or sports, there's that you can have that long-term vision, right? But then the things you have to do, the modular modular things you have to do. They're already set, when Steph Curry takes X number of shots every day, right? He plays within these four lines. Okay. As an entrepreneur or someone that's building, right? You can have this long term vision, but the market is always changing. How how and as you said, new technology coming in, whatever it is. Do you have a framework based on what you've learned from, these athletes? That you can apply to building technology or capturing opportunity that still allows you to, play in the markets for now, but is also tied to your long term vision of d this is what I want to do with my life. Do you have anything yet or Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, that that's a great question. and and absolutely. so athletes in particular, they work on concrete skills, right? They work on dribbling, they work at at freestyle, they work at headers, they work at forehand, backhand, like wedges, whatever it is across all sports, right? There's these discrete things. I think from an entrepreneurial perspective The best thing you can work on is building meta skills. And so meta skills for me are learning how to aggregate or pick up new skills quickly, learning Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: how to make decisions in the face of a lot of noise and adversity. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm. Nifemi Aluko: I think a lot are decision frameworks, which I think are really interesting, and you get better by practicing those. So One of my favorite things, I think it's from Jeff Bezos, right? I I really like a lot of the things that that Jeff Bezos' philosophy on entrepreneurship. So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: there's two things that really stick out. So one is you should invest in things that are not gonna change. Right. So Amazon is basically their big thesis is people are gonna want things for cheaper and faster. And that will never change. So as long as they can offer that and with with high quality customer service, they're gonna be in business for a very long time. Right. I mean Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: it's it's like a a a human, almost like a core human like tenant Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: that they're hitting on. the other thing is like a more concrete decision making framework. And that is that they have this one door one way versus two way door philosophy. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: So if you make a decision and you can't go back, you should really consider it carefully. If you make a decision and it's reversible, just make the decision and you can test with data and then reevaluate. Right. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: So like testing those frameworks over and over again are in my opinion one of the ways that you can get better at essentially just business entrepreneurship. I would also say there's ways to practice as well. So reading every day or having Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Okay. Nifemi Aluko: a a diet of information or or case studies, I think is important. one of my favorite things I I was in a good group for a long time. I think it was a hundred some odd days where I listen to the founders podcast every day. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: and it just gets you thinking about okay, these are these past successful entrepreneurs. How could I apply this to what I'm doing? And your and your gears just set start going. like Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: getting in that brain state where you're generating ideas, you're thinking critically about problems, you're problem solving, you're approaching things with curiosity. To me is one of the most powerful things that that you can do Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: overall. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: and then the final thing is actually putting it all together. So when you are building a business, I actually am in the process of making a video on this idea. it it it took me and my group maybe A little over a month and a half, or around a month and a half to build V1, not not the MVP, but V one of our newsletter hero platform, right? And it's probably at V two or 2.5 now as you've seen it. But I would expect we could build our next product in a week. And then the next one after that in a couple days. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: And so you you get all these lessons of how you put it all together, whether it's engineering, marketing, operations, which is I think a huge one, systems Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: and even the admin things, you get you get increasing returns on how well those all fit together the more you do it. And so Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: The more you do it, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: it's not even about learning individual skills, it's about how do you put all these disciplines together, how do you work as a team better? and those are things that it you you you can effectively practice by doing. So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah. I think, well we the practice for everything, I used to be with deep learning and sound like Andrew Ing was very big on d that framework you provided that you just said with the Jeff Bezos of is this a one way or two way decision? If it's a two or if it's a two way decision, let's move quick, test it, revert back if it doesn't work. If it's a one way thing, let's think about it some more. Right. And that framework, for me personally to keep practicing my writing, which I always attribute to better thinking, right? Is when I listen to a podcast or when I consume anything, I take notes. Right. And that's just a quick I'm practicing the way I process information. Right. So I was watching your podcast, I have a few notes in there of things that were interesting to me, right? And it's just a way for me to get over that hump. So when I do have to process information in my business, it's like right away. there's an action item, there's a thing that we can think about. and you brought up newsletter hero, which I've tried. I really enjoyed using it. for you, as you're building this technology with your team or building anything, how does building technology shape your sense of purpose? or contribution to other people. Nifemi Aluko: I think more broadly, our overall purpose in life is something related to serving others. we're inherently social beings. and research suggests that basically creating opportunity, creating value, doing things for others is one of the s clearest paths to personal happiness. so I think that there's some element of that is like building something That other people use, I I think that that's core in who we are as humans, right? there's another level to that, probably a lower level, is that okay, I want to build things to be able to create selfishly the life that I want. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: but it can be a win win, right? I can create things that create more value than they cost, which is less than it costs us to make those things, and then in turn. I, my group, my my family gets to have the the leftovers to to build the things that we Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: benefits. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: want, right? I'm personally very focused on creating things that I would use. I'm also Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: very interested in creating communities. So I I used to be less interested in that. I used to be very much like, okay, I'll put this out there and then it's educational, but there isn't this necessarily community element. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm. Nifemi Aluko: with AI and the speed that it's going, the the amount that it can basically replicate. in six months we might be able AI might be able to reproduce a recording this that is completely fabricated, right? I think Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Exactly. Nifemi Aluko: communities and trust, particularly local communities, are very, very important. I've been I've been like I I'm very Blessed, I'm quite extroverted. I love meeting people. it's very easy for me to make friends and I loved making friends with new people. but creating that type of thing online as well, I think is long term going to be beneficial for every community that I'm a part of and also the communities that I create. I mean, Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I think we're gonna be moving towards what I would consider like a trust economy. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: where because of AI it's gonna be very difficult to trust things and you really only get a couple shots at trust with people. Right. And so if you can build things and not beta betray trust and really create an environment where it is mutually beneficial, where people are trust you enough to to work with you, to use your products, to maybe even live with you, I Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: No hold. Nifemi Aluko: I think that that's at a at a major premium. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Okay. Yeah. I completely yeah. I I have so many questions where trust is the original currency, right? Before we had before we had coins or whatever it is or tulips from back in the days, it was more do you know that person? Is that person related to that person that can can we trust this person to do anything to exchange value? so it's something that has always been around. I get a sense, as you have mentioned or alluded to, that people are quite jaded now, right? People are quite jaded, especially online, where huge technology companies have put us in silos, and some of that is our doing too, based on how we interact online. The algorithm is like trying to gauge, okay, is is Nifemi interested in in this? Ken interest and in that, let's put them in this. And it has fragmented people in different communities, right? some will argue that AI was just gonna add some fuel to this fire, right? Some will argue that actually no AI could possibly bring us together. Possibly, right? Where where are you in this? Where are you in this? where where does it Nifemi Aluko: So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: really fall? Nifemi Aluko: I I think at a macro global scare scale, it definitely brings us further apart. you just look at so I I've talked about this a lot, but I I love the concept of Dunbar's number. So if you're familiar, Dunbar's number is somewhere between 150 and 200. And it's the number of people that you can reasonably stay in contact with or remember. It's like the the working number of friends that you can have. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, okay. Nifemi Aluko: Beyond that, there are looser connections. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm. Nifemi Aluko: but within that number, particularly in a business or a living context, everyone's incentives are usually aligned. So if you're in a small village and it's less than maybe 150 people, usually people are acting in line with what's gonna benefit the overall village. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: Once you get outside of that number, and you can do some things whether it's policy, government, shared contract to to make this hold together a little bit better. But usually once you get beyond that number, incentives start to change. So let's take Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: a startup, right? So under 150 people, you're thinking, how can I do this for the benefit of the company? What what how is this going to impact the bottom line? You also usually have more stake in the company at that level. When you get beyond that, it starts becoming, will this help me get a promotion? How will I hit my bonus? The this this shift from the us to the I. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: And I see that also taking place globally, right? there's another element of that where it's if it's a small group, less than 150 people, you're also starting to get most of the people are gonna be more similar to you in terms of situation. They're gonna Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: have similar life experiences, and that can be good and bad. But largely if you have someone all the way across the world with a very different experience than than you might have, the probability that you get along with them is a lot less. The probability Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Nasty. Nifemi Aluko: that you might have completely opposing viewpoints on the same topic from your sheer lived experience is also going to be very high. So you're creating Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Right new. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: this this rift, this conflict when these people communicate that almost it's almost impossible to reconcile because of this very different lived experience. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: So I think in local communities, AI, social media AI, social media, because there's none of this trust, we're gonna be able to get closer and tighter, assuming people aren't just perennially on the internet. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yep. Nifemi Aluko: but in but in global communities, especially with all the the misinformation, all of the AI generated content, you're i in my opinion, it's probably just gonna get more divisive. And there's Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: also this high probability of a ton of bots that are Actively trying to make things more divisive. And Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah Nifemi Aluko: so I am spending a ton of my focus trying to create local communities, in-person friend groups. a perfect vision for me in 15 years is I have this giant farm and I have 20 of my closest friends all living there, all of us contributing, our families there, whatever it might be. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: because I think Yeah, it's not gonna be perfect. Everyone has slightly different incentives, whatever it might be. But I I I think that that's closer to how our wiring is designed to work. and I I it's also like I I think that there's a ton of benefits in terms of raising a family and those types of things, which is all Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. And so and so I think it's interesting you're saying this because the way we're thinking about AI, AGI, intelligence, right, is a very like I see it as a very visual thing, right? We're in this phase where we've gone from model predictive AI to generative AI and it's so it's so text driven, which is a visual thing, right? humans we have five senses that we really tap into visual, audio, smell, taste, tactile in intelligence. Is it possible? I have this sense like we're talking about AGI, but it's a very limited form of intelligence. With this visual, I can predict the best next word, but without all the other forms of human intelligence, right? Like the tactile. body awareness, athletes, they can their sense of spaces. So next level, right? That's a different form of intelligence. And from what you're saying, is like you want to be more in person with people, right? So can is it possible can AI even ever get to human intelligence if it can't really like embody things, smell things, taste things, have inner feelings. Is is it even possible for it to match human intelligence? Nifemi Aluko: it depends how you define intelligence from my perspective. do I think it will ever replicate human experience? I don't even know. I don't even know if AI would want to do that. this sentient being, why would why would it want to live like the experience that that we necessarily have? Just to just to Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: know it. I think they would probably think a lot of our programming and how we approach the world is very inefficient. where there is reasonable developmental reasons for that to happen. But in the world we live in, I think a lot of our programming probably doesn't even make sense anymore, right? Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: So would AI even want to go down that path to replicate that? I don't know. Do I think AI will surpass our ability to produce, to think logically, to solve problems, to To do almost everything, yes. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: but I I I can't answer the the experience part. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: my my biggest thing is why would even why would AI even care? Why would they why it why would it want to if it was, if Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I was all knowing, I would like, why would I want to feel like despair or sadness or heartbreak? Like Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah yeah yeah. Nifemi Aluko: that would probably be more dangerous for for AI to feel. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: imagine if AI could intimately feel like vengeance. Or righteousness or retribution, or even anger, true anger, Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: spite, that would be very concerning for me. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. So so in that case, would you tell would you confidently tell humans as a race to just be like, there's no competition there's no competition here. AI is not trying to be like you, keep being human, right? And human is all about connections, empathy. is that worth saying or is that Nifemi Aluko: yeah, I I I think that those things are probably not going to change in the in the long run. I think people will still want human connection. I think AI will get good at trying to replicate human connection, but there is something generally missing. there's also a question of evolution. maybe maybe we evolve culturally or a lot of these things to not want human attention as much. I I have to imagine there is something hereditary about introversion or extroversion, right? a little bit. I'm not saying it it might be very small, but I have to imagine there is some. I know for example there's a gene, I like they call it the entrepreneurship gene or something like that. And it's like there's a certain subgroup of people that are wired to take more risk. they're the ones that would go on voyages historically and these types of things, right? maybe we're in a scenario where those groups of people well, I I I actually can't imagine that would happen, where those groups of people would populate less. I I would actually imagine the people that are more wedded to AI and can get human interaction from AI are less likely to reproduce, right? So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: That is true. Nifemi Aluko: you look at I don't know if it's politically correct, but you look at Japan and culturally their population is declining. is that is that gonna get worse with AI? I would I would imagine. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I but that yeah, there is some element of natural selection at play as well. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: and Ken, now tying back to something I heard when we were talking to Michael Phelps' coach, right? And he said some of these athletes, whether it was Michael Phelps, some other people, and you probably know this also, is like their superpower is sleep, right? Sleeping enough before day of performance, right? So it made me think. I was like, okay. If AI and all the robots are doing all the work, the work I don't want to do, right? If everybody sleeps well, right? Everybody's like sleeping well, right? Does it unleash another level of humanity? we're all well rested, maybe eight to ten hours of sleep. Does it improve performance and creativity to take us to that? Nifemi Aluko: So I I wish that was the case, but I think it'll be the opposite. I I would argue I don't have data support this, but I I would be willing to bet a lot of money. Most people lose sleep not because they're stressing about work, but because they're scrolling social media. and social media is only gonna get more addictive the better that AI gets. So un unfortunately I think that we're just gonna be like sleep deprived, brain rotted, population rather than this beautiful Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yep. Nifemi Aluko: incredible renaissance of creativity and art and and human expression. to to me that is some of the biggest fear that I have. I've especially around kids in this in this area. So my fiance and I were starting to talk about family planning, a lot of these things and w when do you let a kid have a cell phone. When do you let a kid have access to basically digital opium or digital cocaine or heroin in their pocket? to me that's unbelievably hard. I if if it were me, I wouldn't let our kids even see a cell phone until they're 12 or 13. But then you have questions around, okay, they're in schools, there's a social component of that. There's all of these things. And it's like, Well, yes, you're like r robbing kids of some social thing, but I think we're already starting to see the repercussions of what this technology has on attention and and focus and largely happiness associated with self image. So to me that's gonna be one of the biggest challenges going forward is parents are gonna have to make a choice and it can be a really difficult choice. Which is like, hey, we're not gonna let our kids use this technology. We're gonna cut back on using this technology and create really clear boundaries around it. Because phones are more again, I can't stress this enough how addictive cell phones are. and if you were like, Well, okay, all your your kids' friends at seven or eight are gonna be doing cocaine. Are you gonna let your kid also do cocaine? Right. And it's like addictive. There's gonna be this social stigma, all of this stuff. It's like every single parent in their right mind would say no. but then here we have it's like, well, okay, well, it's really convenient because yeah, Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yep, it's convenient. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: they're they're not they're not gonna be like annoying us all the time, or we can Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Good. Nifemi Aluko: know where they are, we can call them socially, there's there's there's these tangible benefits and not that much of a cost in the moment, but this massive Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: long term cost in my opinion, that I think is just it will be disastrous in the long term. So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: yeah, maybe that's a tinfoil hat take of mine, but I i it it that that's really one of the scariest things. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. How are you thinking? So, obviously thinking about family, thinking about some of these best practices or things to do. Are there any rituals that you would rely on when perhaps finding meaning in life starts to get blurry? And this is even just looking back at what at what you've done in the past. Are there things you go to when you're like, things are fuzzy right now? How how do I think about my present and the future? Wh wha what do you go to? Nifemi Aluko: I journal a lot. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Okay. Nifemi Aluko: whenever I'm at a crux, I think about, hey, what where do I want to be? part of it is who am I, in this moment. I think I've lived multiple different lives as different people. Not not like in the spiritual sense, in this life, I've been Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yep. Nifemi Aluko: a data scientist, I've been a content person, I've been an athlete, I've been a student. And what what mattered and why did I do those things? What was the experience like? More and more I'm also thinking about my legacy and my future and my family. I've been having more conversations with my parents about how they raised me and what their thought process was. And I'm, I'm starting to develop my own philosophy on how how I would like to to raise my kids. and i if we get deeply f fairly personal, more philosophical, I I think From a pure meaning of life perspective, I I think our the whole reason we're here is to make the world better for our the future of our children, but also the the people that come after us, right? And so for me, whenever I connect to that, it becomes very clear what I would like to do or like where I would like to go. You know, the Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: the execution and the action doesn't always line up with the the pure vision, but to me that's that's a very important aspect. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Man, man, thanks, thanks. so just before we, get out of here, I have two two more questions, right? One. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Nifemi Aluko: I got I got time if you need to go longer. So Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: yeah. so one one particular one is your new book, right? Vid the visualization handbook for elite athletes. And we've talked about this a bit and you you've heard you hear things about visualize, see yourself and where you want to be and all that kind of stuff. and you actually broke it down to me and gave me some very good insights about some of the practices of these athletes and even on your podcast, Bob Bowman goes through everything with Michael Phelps, him seeing himself as a as a from the stands versus versus on the board, seeing things going off, seeing things going well. Can you just tell give me a quick like what is A good visualization practice for anything you want to achieve in your life. How do you see it? How do you approach it? How can people apply it to their lives? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, so I look at visualization very similar to meditation, right? So people talk about all the benefits of meditation and all these things, and what is meditation at the core? In my opinion, meditation is just the practice of focus, right? We focus on our breath, we're able to have thoughts pass over us and be in the moment and and really be like present in ourselves. Visualization is practice of the mind, in my opinion. Right. So we can practice our memory through visualization. Anytime we remember how something happened in the past, we are visualizing that past event. It's also practicing seeing the future or seeing what we'd like to create or planning or putting all these things together. an engineer, if you're if you're coding or you're building something, at least for me, I see how all of the pieces fit together in my mind. Right. I'm thinking about okay, I'm gonna build this, it's gonna connect via this API to this and this and the or whatever, You can train that skill to get better at it. You can get better at holding more information in your mind. You can get better at seeing the outcomes. you can even rewrite the outcomes of past events if you want, right? You can say, okay, this didn't go how I wanted to. How would I like it to go? How do I rehearse that so that in the future it doesn't come like that? so my my thought and my work is like, okay, visualization, there's a framework around this, there's a process around this. It doesn't have to be this crazy woo-woo thing. Let's put it into steps. Let's allow people to practice this and give them a framework to do that in. yeah, there's there's two types of visualization. So there's process focused. it's called cognitive visualization, where you're effectively visualizing a skill or an improvement. So maybe you're trying to visualize a different swing angle of your golf swing, or maybe you're trying to visualize how you're going to present a talk. So a lot of people visualize, or you can say it out loud, it's still visualization. how they're gonna add emphasis to a word when they're talking, the hand gestures they're gonna use when they're communicating an idea, whatever it might be. And then there's motivational visualization, which is a little bit misnamed, but it's visualization on how you impact your internal state. So this Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: could be related to your confidence, self-efficacy, energy level, motivation, whatever it might be. And and there's some different techniques you can use for that. That is usually more around seeing your success, Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: and seeing yourself succeed over and over in your mind. Whereas the cognitive visualization is more like you seeing the process and actually feeling the process in your body or your or or seeing it happen, whatever it might be. So generally I again we use visualization very regularly. For some people, visualization because they don't have control over it, it can be disastrous. Right. They see themselves in terrible scenarios. They repeat like in their mind the awkward date they had. They they they're they're using because they don't have a framework around it, because they don't have a practice around it, it's it's like a a you know a weap exactly. Yeah. It's a weapon Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Anxiety was like a yeah, a lot of anxiety. Nifemi Aluko: pointed at them instead of one that they can point at the challenges that that they face. So To me, that's that's very much how I I view that practice. That's why I was so passionate about it, is because Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: And I think Nifemi Aluko: I I hate this idea that my mind is against me. Right. I I I'm very fortunate. I haven't really experienced that that much. from a self-efficacy and from a personal like confidence perspective. I I've been blessed. And I also I think very good parenting and and background for that. But It devastates me that there's so many people that they're their own enemy. And Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: to me this is one way to like to to harness the the power that we have and point in a direction that's good rather than Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: than negative. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. I after after I spoke to you and we I started learning more about the visualization practices that you've put down in your book. And you any pe anybody can get that book right now. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, it's on Amazon. Yeah, yeah. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: you go go go check out that book. It's called The Visualization Handbook for Elite Athletes, but you can apply it to life, anything you want to achieve. Anyways, the what I learned pr particularly from Me growing a business, I do visualization practices, but always focused on the outcome, outcome of a, a sales call or the outcome of a campaign. And since, talking to you and this process driven visualization, I've started adding okay, what's the lead up to that sales call? Right. Was ha seeing myself typing out the emails when I do the outreach or When I get a rejection, right? how do I bounce back from that? And those are the little things that I got from you that was like, yeah, let me add that in so that when it actually happens, it's not like this new thing that's happening. I've already practiced for it. So I just think it's applicable to any part of life, any any way you want to grow, it's a very good tool to use. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I I want to double down on what you're saying about it's okay to have sometimes your your your brain just goes into a a negative spot. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: even when you're visualizing, sometimes you you can't avoid it. you you see yourself you're visualizing, you're trying to make a putt or something and keep missing. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: You Nifemi Aluko: That's okay. you can visualize, okay, how do I respond to that? Because inevitably you are gonna miss sometimes, right? How Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: do I respond to that? How do I reconcile that? And The more you start to realize that, it's not that big a deal. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Exactly. Nifemi Aluko: And I will recover and get over this, it feels like it's the end of the world. But I can't Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: tell you, even from my work in professional golf, there's so many golfers that choke down the stretch one week and they come in second and then they win the next week. it's it's crazy. They're knocking on the door and it feels so far away after the first tournament's over. But in retrospect, after months later, they're like, it's just like, Yeah, it was gonna happen eventually, right? And they were there, they could experience it, they could visualize what it was like and Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Hello? Nifemi Aluko: and rewrite it so that the next time they they find the success. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm. Mm. And this is something also I've seen a lot of athletes talk about where is almost the Steph was talking about it recently. Steph Curry was talking about where you just have to have that mindset of even forgetting the last play that didn't go too well, right? And having that short term memory of bouncing back, right? And, if if there's anything in sports or even just life that I think is more is more about your recovery rate, right? you content creation, you put a post out there that doesn't do well. How do you rec recover from that and do another one? Right. you get a rejection from a sales call. Okay, great, recover, do the next one. And I just feel the people that move faster are people that can recover faster. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. And and there's a whole mindset to it. I was listening to I forget what it was. It was probably some real I saw on Instagram. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: No. Nifemi Aluko: They're talking about the hot hand fallacy. right. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm, huh. Nifemi Aluko: So basically a fifty percent shooter is pretty much gonna shoot fifty percent. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm. Nifemi Aluko: it doesn't matter. It's basically basic probability, right? their their make probability Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yep. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: doesn't change if they're hot or they're not, they're still a fifty percent shooter, right? But that's not what shooters tell themselves, right? Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: The good shooters will say, I missed the last two, I'm due, I'm gonna make this next one. Right. And then if they make a bunch in a row, they're like, I'm hot, I'm gonna make the next one. Right. They're Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Exactly. Nifemi Aluko: telling themselves the story, they're they're making it in their minds so that naturally they're gonna make the next one. And and just because it's not logical, just because you know statistics and that's not necessarily how it happens in the world, it doesn't mean that you can't convince yourself of these things that are to your benefit. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Like again, the best athletes I know can be perfectly logical about the data when they're evaluating and not in the game and completely irrational about it. and I think that that also bleeds over to entrepreneurs, right? I Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: if you look at the numbers, the data on starting a company and having success in any of these domains, it's it's like very small. But all every entrepreneur believes they're going to be successful, right? And so I Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Exactly. Nifemi Aluko: I I think that you're not gonna actually take that leap if you don't have that belief to begin with. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hey again, thank you so much. I have one more question. I have asked everybody this question, right? So hypothetically, right? If the entire world wins, dystopian, right? On one hand, where we're scrambling for food, the AI machines, the overlords have taken control. we're slaving to make sure the machines are happy, right? Dystopian, right? Or on the other hand, utopian, where, AI is just serving us. We don't even have to work. there's some form of universal basic income that just appears. We're just exchanging value, we're very happy. choose one. It could be either dystopian or utopian. Are there any practices that you do on a daily basis if you're either in this dystopian or utopian world? Nifemi Aluko: Interesting. What have most people which scenario have they gone with? Like is there Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Ну. Nifemi Aluko: is there a a gist of 'cause I'll go the other direction. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah go the dystopian direction. Most people are like to be honest, most people have asked this question that they they just like, huh? Yeah, they they try to go both angles, but go dystopian. Nifemi Aluko: Okay, so a dystopian world like daily practice. I think I would be continually trying to learn and be curious about the situation. I I think that that serves you honestly that would be way more interesting to me and than even a utopian situation. I feel like utopia is very boring, right? And Probably also try to figure out I'd be like scrounging for water and food and sustenance. probably a practice of bringing people together. the only way we're gonna improve our situation is probably through some community or some human resourcefulness. Yeah, I'd I'd also think about probably how I could be most useful to these AI overlords. not Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: No Nifemi Aluko: in terms of exchange of value, but okay, how do I appease their needs so I can create whatever life that I wanna create. Yeah. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. So that you can create in peace. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, my hope is to be hedged from this and have a farm completely off the grid with access to fresh water so that Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Right. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: so that I can hold out for as long as possible. in the in the resistance, Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: What would you And then what okay, then on that community, I think you've mentioned it, but what would you be doing? What would you guys? Nifemi Aluko: Mostly just farming. You Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: just I think from a pure community perspective. I love just group meals. just talking about life and and exchanging information, perspectives, what we learned, what we're reading. I also love the idea of designing your environment. So a lot of it would be focused on hey, how do we build a place that's healthy, that has nourishing food, that has a sense of growth and learning and wonder. and so it'd probably be a lot of okay, how do we sustain, but also how do we build a place that's like a great environment to to live and grow? Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: Yeah. Hey Ken, thank you very much. really appreciate Nifemi Aluko: Of course. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: those insights. I feel like I've learned so much and there's a possible possibility you might do a part two of this. So we don't Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: know where we'll be in six months, to be honest, as you said. Nifemi Aluko: True, true. Congratulations. Untitled recording Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 318ms StreamYard: All right, so