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Elizabeth Holmes, Theranos & The Documentary · Legally Brunette

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hi guys, welcome to Legally Brunette. I'll be your host today,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Emily Simpson and... Shane. Okay, today, it's interesting that we're
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: not going to talk about murder today.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I know. Are you disappointed? A little bit.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: It is slightly disappointing.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Financial crimes aren't the same as far as digging in
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: evidence and smoking guns.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Right, but this is a very interesting case. This is
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the case of Elizabeth Holmes. So she was 19 when
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: she dropped out of Stanford with an idea that could
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: change medicine, a single drop of blood that would reveal
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: everything about your health. Within 10 years, Elizabeth Holmes had
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: it all. The black turtleneck, the deep voice, a board
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: stacked with former cabinet secretaries, a company worth $ 9 billion,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: and they called her the next Steve Jobs. But inside Theranos,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: something was wrong. Machines that did not work, a lab
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: that inspectors never saw, and employees who asked too many
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: questions were shown the door. Then a reporter started making
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: phone calls. Today, the woman who once graced the cover
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: of every business magazine is in a federal prison in Texas.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: And she still insists that she did nothing wrong. So
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: who is Elizabeth Holmes? A visionary who flew too close
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: to the sun or one of the greatest con artists
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley has ever seen? What's your take?
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: She's the biggest dingbat anyone's ever seen. Oh, yeah. I
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: don't know if it's... I think she's cuckoo whether she
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: believes it and is genuine or whether she is lying.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: She's cuckoo.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: She's cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: And people gave her money.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: They did. They gave her a lot of money.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: She had a deep voice. Why is that even listed
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: as like a thing?
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Because that is, even Annabelle knew about that. Because when
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I was telling her about how we were doing a
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: podcast on Elizabeth Holmes, she goes, oh, is that the
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: woman that faked the deep voice?
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she probably said that because other people say
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: it like you just said it. So like, where is it?
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Why is it an issue?
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Because if you listen, we just saw the movie. So
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: there's a movie out. about Elizabeth Holmes. It's like the
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: 30 days up until she goes to prison. I saw
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: it last night. When you listen to her talk with
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: her normal voice.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: So did I. I was there.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: You were there for like five minutes.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: I was not there. I was there for an hour
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: and a half. Okay.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Anyway, when she talks with her normal voice, she sounds
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: like a young woman. When she was wearing the black
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: turtleneck and selling the Theranos idea, she had a completely
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: distinctly voice. She used a very, very low, manly-sounding voice.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: And people do side-by-sides of putting her speaking in her
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: normal voice and that voice.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but a different setting, though, right?
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but why would you change your voice?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Now that she has gone through a trial and been
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: convicted and has to go to prison, and now when
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: she speaks, her voice is different than that person in
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: the black turtleneck that was trying to sell the idea
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: of Theranos. She used a very deep, masculine voice.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: I never liked the name Theranos.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: It sounds like a Greek god. Yeah. I think that's Thanos.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: A medical device. Thanos is the Greek god.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't sound like a medical device to you?
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: No, it sounds like a Greek god to me.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: You know where the word came from, right?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, therapy plus diagnosis. Yeah.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Not from Greece. No. Maybe. All right, Elizabeth was born
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: in Washington, D.C. to Christian and Noelle Holmes. Her mother
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: worked as a congressional staffer, and her father held a
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: vice president role at Enron. That was the energy company
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: that was the seventh largest public corporation in the United States.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: The company collapsed in a massive accounting and fraud scandal.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: This was back in 2001. Now, do you remember in
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: the movie, her parents are in this building, movie you
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: can see everything i guess i assume they called it
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: you can see everything because that was how she presented
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: it well.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: She was like yeah like i'm hiding nothing you can
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: see everything in my home where all i do is
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: sit on the couch and don't brush.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: My hair right um so the holmes family has an
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: interesting background uh Her dad, Christian's great-grandfather, also was named
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Christian Holmes and was a Danish immigrant who settled in
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Cincinnati studying engineering and became a physician. According to The
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: New Yorker, he met yeast tycoon Charles Fleischman while treating
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: him at a local hospital and later married Fleischman's daughter, Betty.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: The couple grew very wealthy because of the Fleischman yeast business. However,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: by the time Elizabeth's father was born, much of that
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: fortune had been spent. That did not stop him from
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: telling stories about his ancestors and what they had once achieved.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth told The New Yorker in 2014 that those stories
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: taught her what happens to people who choose not to
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: pursue something purposeful. During her childhood, the family moved several
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: times and eventually settled in Houston, where Elizabeth attended St.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: John's School. She studied Mandarin and later did a summer
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: program for Stanford in Beijing.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I don't think the background... matters so much when i
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: mean she's scamming people right yeah so okay great she
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: has all these credentials she's still scam people okay great
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: she doesn't have any credentials she really scammed people well i.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Think she's highly intelligent and i'm not you.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Didn't get that from watching the movie no.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Well i'll tell you what i got from watching the
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: movie but i'll just tell you based upon the research
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: and things i've read about her i would say that
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: she's highly intelligent And for her to be able to
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: manipulate people the way that she did, I think that
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: you have to be highly intelligent to do that. Now,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: is it high intelligence or is she just delusional? So
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: I'm saying people that are highly delusional about themselves could
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: present as highly intelligent.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: After watching the movie, I didn't find her to be intelligent.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Well, she was a completely different person in this most
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: recent movie than she was when I watched interviews and
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: videos with her. I mean, because the guy that was
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: the whistleblower, that was an employee that came forward and said, look,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: none of these machines work. She has the platform that
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: you only have to use a drop of blood, and
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: that's not true. We're actually having to pull full samples
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: of vials of blood and things. Whoever this whistleblower was,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: He said that when she walked into a room, she
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: commanded the presence and that she was highly intelligent and
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: that she commanded a room and that people listened to her.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that's maybe why she used that deep
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: voice and wore the turtleneck like Steve Jobs. She was
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: clearly playing a part that people were feeding into and believing. Now,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: the woman that you and I saw in the movie
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: that we.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Just saw, I would have.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Never thought that she had a commanding presence at all.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: No, she was weak and annoying.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: She was weak and annoying. Yeah. Yeah.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: And was it her husband or boyfriend?
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I think it's her boyfriend. I don't think they're married.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: His name's Billy Evans.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: The guy was no much of a winner than she was.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: He was a complete loser.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Well, he was controlling her is the way.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I took away from it. I don't know if he
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: had any control over anything. He thought he was. All right.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: In 2003, Elizabeth founded the company that became Theranos. This
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: was at age 19. Her first idea was a wearable patch.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: It would use microneedles to draw tiny amounts of blood
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: painlessly through the skin, analyze it on the spot, and
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: then release a precise dose of medication based on the results.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: The patch would also send the data wirelessly to the
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: patient's doctor. She filed a patent application for it that year.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: What year is this?
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: This is in 2003 when she was 19. So she's
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: at Stanford. She's studying chemical engineering. I think she has
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: all these big ideas.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. As I said, barely when like Bluetooth came in
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: and stuff. And all of a sudden she's... I mean,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: those are great, grandiose ideas, but I think they're just that. Right.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: When she finally realized that this was impossible... She shifted
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: to a different idea. Theranos would retrieve a few drops
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: of blood from a finger prick, and they would run
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: a large panel of tests from that one prick. In 2004,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth dropped out of Stanford and used the tuition money
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: her parents had saved to fund the company. Her chemical
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: engineering professor, Channing Robertson, became one of the company's first advisors.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: you know, my takeaway from the movie, I know we
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: keep going back and forth between the past as to
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: when she's building the company and then the 30 days
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: before she goes to prison. But my takeaway from watching,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: first of all, the movie is three hours long.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: It's hard. 54 minutes. Okay.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: It's three hours long. And I was reading reviews and
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: watching YouTube videos on it. And people were talking about
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: how it was like the best movie they've seen. It's
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: the best documentary. It's like the number two grossing documentary
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: of all time. I don't know what the number one is.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Um, Titanic.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: That's not a dog. No, that was the reenactment, a dramatization.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: It documented the lives of the people on the Titanic.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: But what was interesting is my takeaway of who she was,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: was that I got nothing about her from a three
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: hour movie.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: All our investors must be a bunch of idiots that
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: give her all kinds of money.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: My takeaway was that I got no, nothing real or
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: substantial from her personality.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: No, the movie should have been titled, I don't know.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Because that's all she did.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: She never really answered any questions with any depth.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: She just kind of shrugged everything off.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: And it was very awkward at times. And the director,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: what's his name? Nathan, you know him.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Nathan Fielder.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Nathan Fielder. Nathan Fielder is actually a comedian. That's what
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: he's famous for.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not like stand-up comedy. No, but like deadpan comedy.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Like he produces these.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Shows on businesses and things and it's, It comes off
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: as real, but it's really not. It's funny because he
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: wouldn't do these marketing strategies that he has.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Right. And so the fact that he's the director and
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: he's also part of the film, and that's not normal
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: in a documentary. You know what I was thinking is
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: when they make a documentary, the people that are making
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the documentary aren't on... camera. They're not in front of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: the camera. Every once in a while, you might hear
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: a producer behind the scenes ask a question, but they
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: aren't one of the main people in the documentary. Nathan
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Fielder is actually.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: No, it was almost like an interview over 30 days, right?
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Like follow them around and interview them and like that.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: I know, but he's very.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Integrated. Yes.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: But that's the only reason it was entertaining.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Well, he was entertaining.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. If he wasn't in it, it'd be boring.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: He's entertaining in a way where he's not trying to
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: be entertaining, but he's very deadpan entertaining. There were several
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: times when the audience laughed out loud because he was
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: so entertaining. But in a very not trying to be entertaining,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: he would just- Well.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: That's how his show is. He kind of does that
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: when he helps people in these businesses. It's awkward- Yeah,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: it was awkward. But you also think it's real. Or,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, he's not trying to be funny, but
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: he is. In this case, for example, didn't the boyfriend say, like,
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I know what you're thinking?
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Like, to the director. Meaning, like, I know you think
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: we're weird. I know what you're thinking. And he was like, no,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: you don't. And it's true. I hate it when people say, like, oh,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: I know what you're thinking. No, you don't. Or, I
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: know how you feel. No, you don't. You might have
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: an idea, but you don't. And that's an example where
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: he called him out. I was like, they don't. And
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: then everyone just busted up laughing. Cause it's almost like
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: the director breaks character a little bit and he's not
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: just this warm and fuzzy guy trying to help the
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: story along. Like he'll kind of point out awkwardness and
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: kind of make jokes. Like, didn't he, what was the
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: present he gave her to go to prison? Oh, it
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: was a break. It was in the, it was a
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: kit to break it out of jail.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: He gave her like sunglasses and like a.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Runaway outfit or something like, It's still, and then he
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: apologizes for it, right? He's like, oh, this might be
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: kind of awkward now. I thought it was funny at
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: the time, but maybe, no, he knows it's not. And
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: he gives him this gift in front of her parents.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about the rise of Theranos. This
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: is 2004 to 2014. So the span of 10 years,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth raised money from prominent Silicon Valley investors and built
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the Edison device named after Thomas Edison. She began modeling
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: herself on Steve Jobs, including the black turtlenecks.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: I was about to say, that's why the black turtleneck.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: And a deliberately deep speaking voice. 2009, Ramesh Sunny Balwani,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: which was her romantic partner at the time, he's 19
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: years older than she is, joined as president and COO.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: The two met back in 2002 when Elizabeth was 18
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: years old during the Stanford University Mandarin program in Beijing.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: The relationship was kept hidden from investors and the board.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: During the 2010s, Elizabeth assembled a famous board that included
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: former Secretaries of State George Shultz and Henry Kissinger and
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: former Defense Secretary James Mattis. Here's my question. She's assembling
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: all these people that are high profile people, and they're
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: all these men, right? And are they just not, does
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: no one ask for research data or demonstrations? Do they
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: not want to see how this machine actually works? Do
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: they not try it on themselves? I mean, are these
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: men just all sitting around just believing everything she says?
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Cause she has a black turtleneck on a red lipstick or.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: My understanding is she faked it all. So like if
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: they did do testing, if they did demonstrate the product,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: she faked it. Yeah.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: But how is she faking it?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Fake the results, fake the technology. You know,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: like it probably wasn't a real time technology where they'd
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: prick their finger and then all the results would spit
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: up on a screen. So then they could fib the
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: results and then she could do a printout and give
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: it to them.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: So you're saying she was going to all these links
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: to manipulate the data and manipulate. That's why it's very hard.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: On the show, it said, didn't they say I was
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: supposed to test for 120 different items? And only tested
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: for a couple, and even those weren't accurate?
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, then even when I watched interviews with the whistleblower,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: he said, and you only could test one thing at
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: a time.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, so it'd have to be 120 pricks?
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you couldn't even test for multiple things. You could
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: only test for one thing at a time. And then
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: he said the results weren't accurate, and people were told
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: the wrong things.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Well, that would make sense, because when you would go
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: get blood tests and everything, right, for like, you know,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: pregnancy and stuff, they would take lots of tubes of
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: blood and send them to different labs and different testings.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: And we had it done with kids and they, it's,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: it's not like they just take one sample and that's it.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: You need to like more than a drop. I mean,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: that's just common sense. Unless there's some technology we're unaware
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: of that she has in her pocket and no one
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: else has.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's what her pitch was that she
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: has technology in her pocket that nobody else has. And
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: everyone believed her.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: There's only one person wearing a turtleneck around here.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: The company launched in-store wellness centers with Walgreens starting in
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Arizona and Palo Alto. This is back in 2013. Elizabeth
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: was featured on magazine covers including Fortune and Forbes. Theranos
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: peaked at a $ 9 billion valuation, which made Holmes a billionaire,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: at least on paper.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: On paper, yeah.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: So then we start to talk about the collapse of Theranos.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: It was a printer-sized box with a robotic pipetting.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: They made it clear that the goal was to be
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: half the size of a Kleenex box.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Half the size of a Kleenex box.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: That's what he said, yeah.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: It processed finger prick samples and cartridges. It could only
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: run one type of test, so it handled about a
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: dozen of the 200 plus tests Theranos advertised, and those
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: results were unreliable and often failed quality control. You know,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: in the movie, I don't know if you saw the part,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: but she actually has this device out on a table.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: So the movie is, it's that, it's her, she has
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: two children. She has a baby.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Is that the one that was large and it was
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: with wire cables? That was like... Not even close to,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: he was like, this is going to be the size
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: of half a Kleenex box. I'm like, really? Because it's
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: taking up like an entire table. Right.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: It was just kind of like, yeah, like this machine
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: was on top of like a dining room table. So
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: in the movie, they're staying in Del Mar, which is
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: near here. They're staying in Del Mar, California in a
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: beach house. They rented like a little beach house on
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: the beach and it's her and Billy, her boyfriend, and
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: they have two children together. She'd just given birth to
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: a baby and they also had a toddler. So they
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: had the two children together. Then there's the scene where
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: she has the actual device out on the table. I
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: actually saw an interview with the whistleblower who said that
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't the actual device, that this was like a future,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: like this was a different device.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: All I know is it was janky. It was a
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: bunch of random things put together. It looked like a prop.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: And they just, every sentence that came out of their mouths,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: you couldn't walk away with anything like new. It was just... Circular,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: vague terms, technology, advanced. There was nothing definitive to explain
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: what it did or why it could do what it did.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Nothing at all. And then they're like, and it's going
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: to do this, and it's going to do that, and
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: it's going to be this size. And it looked ridiculous.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: The other thing that was mind-boggling to me is that
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: while she is taking phone calls about going to prison,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: she's also having meetings with people for investments for continuing
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: on with this same type of business idea.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: And then again, those phone calls were just like vague terms,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: fancy words that didn't amount to anything at all.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: You know, my takeaway from the movie was that she
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: was very like a Stepford wife. Like, it was very, like,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: the eyes. Like, she doesn't blink. That's scary. When you
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: look someone directly in the face and ask them a question, like,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: did you lie? Or, you know, were you being deceitful?
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: And they don't blink. And they just stare back at
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: you with a smile and non-blinking. It's so robotic and strange.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: There's no warmth there or authenticity or genuineness. It's creepy.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: She was very creepy to me. Like, she was very
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: just robotic and odd.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah. And Nathan Field, the director, also like, and
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: he tried to give her many chances. Like, this doesn't
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: sound weird to you. Are you sure?
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Really? Like the bit when he played who's on first. Yeah.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Abbott and Costello. And she didn't get the, she hadn't
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: heard of it. So he's like, okay, let's play it. Right.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Who's on first. The name of the baseball player on
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: first base, his name is who. So it makes for
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: a funny joke of who's on first. Who, who, who.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: So they play it and he's watching her the whole
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: time and trying to see her reaction. And she was,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: she was blanket. Yeah.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: But here's the question.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: She couldn't get it. She couldn't understand it.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But I don't know. Could she not understand the
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: reason he did it? You didn't see before that. The
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: reason that he did that was because the two of them,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Nathan Fielder and her were talking about the Theranos machine
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and how it works. And she was changing wording so
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: that she didn't sound deceitful.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: It was, So he was playing that to see if
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: she understood how a single word could make a difference
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: in someone's, what they're trying to tell other people, the
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: message they're conveying. So my question is, did she truly
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: not understand what he was trying to prove by showing
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: her that comedic bit? Then she looks innocent and naive.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Or did she absolutely understand what he was doing and
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: she just wouldn't let herself look like she caught on. Okay. Like,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: was she playing a character, this naive girl that just...
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: you know was manipulated by other people i.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Think she's an idiot i think she didn't understand.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: It i don't know i think she's so she's so
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: manipulative that i i think.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: She how is this going huh what Huh? Manipulative. She's
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: an idiot.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Because she keeps telling him in this documentary that she
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: had nothing to do with being deceitful, that it was
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: other people and that she was always authentic and she
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: was true. And she even claims that she's never told
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: a lie in her entire life. And she's sticking by
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: that story. So I'm saying during that, when he shows
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: that comedic bit, if she catches on and she's quick
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: and she understands what he's trying to prove there... Then
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: it's like admitting that she uses words to manipulate. But
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I think she was playing a character just being that doe-eyed, non-blinking,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Stepford wife. Like, no, I don't get it.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: You can give her that credit.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not giving her credit. I'm saying that's worse.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I'm saying that she's manipulating whoever is in front of her.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: That she's so good at that. Mm-hmm. Patients got wrong results,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: including false HIV positives and false miscarriage diagnosis. I mean,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: this is just like... It's worthless. This is like junk science.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: It's like throwing darts on a little chart. You're just like, oh,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: this is what you have. This is what you have.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Investors were misled by exaggerated claims about military use and
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: fake pharmaceutical validations. All right, so talking about how she
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: manipulated investors... So most samples were secretly run on modified
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Siemens commercial machines diluted to make up for the small
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: blood volume, which made them less accurate. Many patients' tests
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: ended up being ordinary venous draws on standard equipment, not
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: one drop of blood that the company was claiming to do.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: So that was what a whistleblower was saying. I saw
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: that in an interview where it was like they were
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: claiming that it was one drop of blood. And I
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: think that's what they visually show people. Like, look, it's
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: just one drop of blood. But then when they're actually
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: running the test, they're having to use more samples. So
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: like this whole concept in the movie of how she
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong and wasn't deceitful is crazy to
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: me that she can look at him in the eye
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: and say things like that.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: The Edisons sat in a lab nicknamed Normandy, kept away
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: from inspectors who were shown the commercial machine lab, which
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: was dubbed Jurassic Park. Proficiency tests were run on commercial
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: machines instead of the Edisons. Oversight was weak, and regulators
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: later voided two years of Edison results. All right, so
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: the team, so at the workplace at Theranos, so the
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: teams were siloed, which means they weren't allowed to speak
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: to each other.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: And Sonny Balwani watched the staff very closely. People who
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: raised doubts were fired or sidelined, and departing employees faced
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: strict NDAs and aggressive legal threats.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: It's frustrating to see these crappy people take all kinds
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: of money and complain and, you know, act like they
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: didn't do anything wrong.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: In October of 2015, Wall Street Journal reporter John Kiryu
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: published his first expose using whistleblowers, including Tyler Schultz. That's
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: the the guy I've seen several interviews with, he was
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: a whistleblower, and Erica Chung, he told the public that
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: most tests actually ran on modified commercial machines and that
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: the Edison results were unreliable. Then we get to 2016,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: federal regulators found that Theranos' lab posed immediate jeopardy to patients.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Holmes was banned from operating a lab for two years,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Walgreens ended the partnership, and Theranos voided two years of
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Edison test results. Holmes and Balwani split, and he left
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the company. All right.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Walgreens. Can't believe they dumped millions into it. Yeah. Setting
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: up their shops and stuff to have a little section
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: or whatever.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Like a little site.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Marketing and training, all based on nothing. Nothing.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: In March of 2018, the SEC filed civil fraud charges
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: against Holmes, Theranos, and Sonny Balwani. It alleged that they
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: raised more than $ 700 million from investors between 2013 and
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: 2015 through false and misleading statements about the company's technology, business,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: and finances. Holmes settled without admitting or denying allegations. She
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: paid a $ 500, 000 fine, returned 18.9 million shares, gave up
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: voting control of the company, and was barred from serving
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: as an officer or director of a public company for
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: 10 years. In June of 2018, Holmes and Bolani were
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: indicted on federal wire fraud and conspiracy charges, and Holmes
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: stepped down as CEO. September of 2018, Theranos shut down
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: after A decade. It took a decade. Like she ran
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: this scam for a decade.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: I was wondering, did she live like some fancy lifestyle?
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: There probably was a period of time where she, I mean.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, she supported herself, I know. But I mean,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: did she do anything extravagant?
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I think she had access to a lot of
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: money at one point, but I think it was probably brief.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: But did she use it?
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Did she permanently have her eyelids sewn open?
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: So she wouldn't have to blink?
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: She clearly didn't do much with her hair, though.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: No.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of hair issues in the new movie.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: And she was sweating.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: She was sweating. Well, they were on the beach. It
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: was pretty humid.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: All I know is it was very... If you want
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to be uncomfortable for three hours. I felt like we
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: were sitting in the room with him.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: I know it was. And the fact that Nathan Fielder,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: he loves uncomfortable. Like he lives in that. He is
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: so deadpan and fine in that uncomfortable weirdness.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he had his homework cut out for him
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: on that.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Assignment yeah you know what else i don't understand they
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: show when her boyfriend gets in the shower they show
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: him naked in the shower there's.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Like that's the part i missed i came late for.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: That you didn't see i saw that it was a
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: little shocking it was like full frontal nudity i didn't.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Understand probably his doing it's probably like.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: That's part of the yeah it's probably.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: His contract he added he redlined his contract he added
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: must include frontal nudity.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Full frontal wiener shot exactly It was strange. It just
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: came out of nowhere. I wasn't expecting that. But you
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: can see everything.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, good. I'm glad I can see that.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: All right. So we get to 2019. Elizabeth, oh, she
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: married Billy Evans. So they are married. I didn't know
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: if he was a boyfriend or they were married, but
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: they are. He is a hotel chain heir. He comes
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: from a wealthy family. Because that was another thing that
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Nathan Fielder, the director, asked him. He was like, why
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: are you with her? Like, why would you Stick around.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: It's funny how money's always like a reason. Well, clearly
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: it must be money. You know what I mean? Like
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: someone's like the big age gap or someone's not fit
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: and the other person's fit or just something. And people
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: are like, well, it must be money.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Well, he comes from. A family.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: All right, so it's not money.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: So it's not money. Maybe he's just addicted to the notoriety,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: whether it's good or bad. Like some people just thrive
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: in the public eye, whether it's positive or negative.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Maybe he's mesmerized by your eyes.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe. In 2020, her trial was delayed repeatedly because of
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: COVID-19 and her pregnancy. In July of 2021, she gave
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: birth to her first child, a son named William. On
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: August 31st of 2021, her trial begins in federal court
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: in San Jose. Holmes and Balwani were tried separately. She
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: testified in her own defense over seven days. She accused
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Balwani of emotional and sexual abuse during their relationship, which
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: he denied. Balwani argued that she believed in the technology
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: at Theranos. On January 3rd of 2022, the jury reached
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: a split verdict. She was found guilty on one count
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: of conspiracy to defraud investors. and three counts of wire fraud.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: She was found not guilty on four counts related of
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: defrauding patients and the jury remained deadlocked on three investor
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: fraud counts. That resulted in a mistrial for those charges.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors chose not to retry her on the three hung counts.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Then in March of 2022, Hulu's The Dropout premiered and
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Amanda Seyfried won an Emmy for playing Holmes. There was
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: another thing in this movie where I was confused because
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Amanda Seyfried shows up in this movie.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: And Nathan Fielder goes and he's talking to her about
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes, which they've never met.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: She portrayed her in the TV series on Hulu.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: So now she's also in this documentary. But for a
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: moment when she first shows up in this documentary, I
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: was confused because they did a kind of combined scene
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: of him talking to Amanda Seyfried about Elizabeth. But then
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: she was also portraying Elizabeth. So at first, I didn't
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: understand really what was going on. And then I realized
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: they brought her in, which was interesting the way they
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: brought her in. They brought her in because she played her,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: so she knew a lot about her and her life.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: But then they also used her towards the end of
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: the film for reenactments because once Elizabeth Holmes actually reports
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: to prison and goes to jail, which they show in
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: the documentary, right? She puts her... Remember, she talked about
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: how she was going to go shopping. She had to
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: get herself like a sweater to go to show up
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: for prison.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was worried about her. It was her surrender outfit.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Her surrender outfit. That's right. Her surrender outfit. So then
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: once she's incarcerated, he can't interview her or really he
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: doesn't have access to her anymore. But there's still all
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: these things going on because he still has contact with Billy.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: He's still talking to Billy. Billy's telling him things about her.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: Billy being the husband.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Billy being the husband.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So in order to reenact those scenes, he uses Amanda
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Seyfried to play her.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I know. That's kind of funny, though.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: But she also plays herself. So it's kind of confusing.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that's what makes this documentary so interesting.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, it has twists and turns everywhere. Even though
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: it's very slow moving and it's three hours, you are
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: kind of enthralled by what's going on.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Well, you're always waiting for, like, what are they going
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: to say? When's she going to open up? Or what's
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: the director going to say? Like, you're always waiting for, like,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: the next line. Right. Because you're just hanging on by
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: a thread like, what is going on? And you can
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: hear like a pin drop kind of thing sometimes.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: So on November 18th of 2022, Elizabeth was sentenced to
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: 11 years and three months in federal prison, followed by
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: three years of supervised release. Balwani was later sentenced to
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: nearly 13 years. In February of 2023, Elizabeth gave birth
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: to her second child, who was a daughter named Invicta.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: May of 2023, Holmes and Balwani were ordered to pay
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: $ 452 million in restitution. The Ninth Circuit denied her request
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: to stay out of prison while she appealed. And then
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: she spent her final weeks of freedom with the A24
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: film crew, which is what we've been talking about. That
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: was the production company.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: My understanding is she or he reached out to the
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: production company and was like, we want to do this. Yes.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I just wonder, and my question is, did she know
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: who Nathan Fielder was?
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know, because I saw an interview with him
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and he was like, doesn't she know the kind of
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: films I make? Right. Which is like exposing, I don't know,
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: pettiness or awkwardness or people's uncomfortableness. Yeah. I mean, he
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: kind of, I wouldn't say he makes fools of people,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: but he kind of makes a joke of a scenario.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Right. And he's very good at that.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like he opened up, I'm not going to go
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: into a big, but he opened up the dumb Starbucks.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: So he helps a guy with a coffee shop that's
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: doing poorly. And he's like, well, let's call it dumb Starbucks,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: make it a parody and we'll sell your coffee. It's
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: quote unquote art. And then it's a parody so we
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: can do it. So he's doing this whole thing and
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: it's silly. It's not real marketing. He wouldn't do that.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: And it makes a joke of the whole thing. Right. Mm-hmm.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: So if she saw these little videos that he did,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I don't think she'd pick him for a documentary.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Well, that was my question. I wondered if she knew
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: about his background at all. Because you know what he
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: reminds me of? He reminds me of Borat.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Where... Sacha Baron Cohen.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Yes. Where I think it's funny, but it's also very uncomfortable. Like,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I get secondhand embarrassment watching that sometimes, especially certain scenes
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: where you know everyone at that dining room table believes that.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Bora is playing a real character.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: He doesn't break character.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: And he never breaks character.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: And everyone thinks it's legit.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: And he's obviously very awkward and uncomfortable and inappropriate many times. Right.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: And then you're sitting there watching everyone at a table...
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: be completely uncomfortable because they think he's a real person
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: who says and acts like that. And you can, like,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I can feel my heart have palpitations because I'm like,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: this is so uncomfortable. That's how I felt at times
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: watching this documentary because Nathan Fielder is so good at
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: creating those scenarios where he just asks the questions and
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: that are inappropriate or maybe like very deep. And then
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: he puts people in awkward positions where they just kind
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: of sit there and they don't know what to say.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: And instead of being like, I would move on and
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: ask something else. He doesn't, he'll just sit there.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: He'll sit there for 15, 20 seconds, probably silent, staring
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: and waiting for a response.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: And stare you at you.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: And so you're just sitting there in the audience and
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: you're like, this.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Is so uncomfortable. If Elizabeth or whomever would say, I
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: don't really know. Then he would just sit there and
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: stare at them, waiting for more.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Right. And it's uncomfortable. And then that's why she smiles.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: So much because he keeps putting her in these situations
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: where he's asking her uncomfortable questions, but he never moves
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: on from it. He also is always lurking, which I found.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Like his head would peek around a corner and he
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: had his headsets on. He's like peeking around the corner.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: But the camera would like zoom in on him and
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: his face and he'd be like in a hallway lurking
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: or he'd be like, you know, around a corner lurking.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: And he was always, he was a lurker, which I
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: found amusing as well.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I would strongly recommend anyone search Nathan Fielder on YouTube
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: and find his videos. They're pretty funny.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: We're a big fan of Nathan Fielder. Not so much
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes. No. But Nathan Fielder.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: He's funny.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: He reminds me of you. Oh, yeah. And this is
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: why I think you like him so much is you don't–
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: you're deadpan.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Well, I like the– like you don't have– everyone has–
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: to laugh for it to be funny, right? Like the
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: jokes on them, but they think the jokes on him
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: or like he's a weirdo, but it's really them. Like Borat, right?
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Like who was, who were you laughing at? The people, well,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: him and the people's reactions, but everyone, I don't know,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: I just like that.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Well, he's, yeah.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: By the way, Sacha Baron Cohen did say that he,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: because the question was, do you feel like you're making
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: people uncomfortable and all this and that and making them
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: look like idiots on TV? And he goes, actually, he
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: goes quite the opposite. He goes, I think it shows
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of how kind people are because they're patient
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: with them. They're helping him. It is awkward. They don't
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: blow him off and tell him to scram. They actually
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: help him, you know, like in a sad, attempting way
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: of trying to, you know, get him up off his feet.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: So that's not the case with Elizabeth Holmes, though. She
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: was just a wacko.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: All right. On May 30th of 2023, she reports to
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the federal prison camp in Bryan, Texas, a minimum security facility.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: We see this in the movie. It shows her actually reporting,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: and she's walking across the yard to go into the
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: federal prison camp. This is in Texas. And you can see... Also,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: there's a ton of paparazzi out there. Did you see
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: that part where they're just all just, you know, tons? Yeah.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Which is... I never understood that. You have like 100
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: people taking thousands of photos each of her walking into
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: the prison.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Of her back walking into the prison. Yeah. I mean,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: it must have.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: That....
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Vision that photo must have gone for high amounts that's
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: why they're all out there i mean i guess those
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: papers or newspaper whoever buys it wanted her walking into
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: federal prison the bureau of prisons projected a release date
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: of december 29th of 2032 which reflects a good conduct
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: credit the ninth circuit heard oral arguments on the appeals
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: by holmes and balwani and a three-judge panel rejected both
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: of their appeals the panel said the trial judge may
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: have made small procedural errors but they were harmless. The
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Ninth Circuit unanimously denied a rehearing both by the panel
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: and by the full court that left the Supreme Court
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: as her only remaining route to overturning the conviction. Ghislaine
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Maxwell was transferred to the same prison camp, and Jen
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Shaw from Salt Lake City is also there. She and
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth allegedly became friends.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: How much did she take in that she only has
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: to return $ 450, 000?
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: You know, that I don't know, but she does– in
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: the documentary, I don't know if you remember, but she
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: does say that she has no– that she has no money.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, clearly.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: And that money isn't– she talks all the time. She
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: makes several statements about how she didn't do Theranos for money,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that she wasn't interested in money, she's not interested in money.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: And then that's why– He exposes in the end, after
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: she goes to prison, he exposes, he's talking to Amanda
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Seyfried and he says to her, let me tell you
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: this thing that happened. Billy Evans, the boy, the husband.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Well, also she, yeah, you're right. She said, I didn't
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: do it for money and this and that. And then
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: she makes it like, why would I do any of this?
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: I'm just trying to, why would I do this if
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: I was lying? Meaning the documentary. If I'm a liar,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't, I wouldn't have invited you into my home.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: That's what she says, those things. So go ahead.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Sorry. So anyway, in the end, like I would say
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: the last half of the movie or the last third
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: of the movie is basically him, Nathan Fielder, the director,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: telling Amanda Seyfried about this situation that happened before they
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: started filming, where Billy Evans asked him and the A24
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: production team to come and meet. And they go meet
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: at some house. They're all sitting around. Elizabeth is there.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: She's talking. She's looking at her computer. She's, I guess,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: probably just talking about how she wants them to follow her.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And she wants to be authentic. And she wants whatever.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: This lasts 30 days before she goes to prison. Then
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: she hears her baby cry. So she leaves the room.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Then when she leaves the room, Billy... says, all right,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: what are you going to pay us to do this? Well,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: the point of a documentary is when people do documentaries,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: they don't get paid, right? Then there's no influence, right?
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: You don't have editing control or you're just doing it
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: because you're- Or.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: You're not saying, well, they paid me a hundred grand,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: so I just said whatever they wanted me to say.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Right. It's just basically like the point of a documentary
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: is you're supposed to be your authentic self and it's
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: just putting it out there and the director's piecing it
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: together and following you and not manipulating it.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Right. Right.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: So when she walks away and she leaves the room,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: he says, okay, let's, let's figure out the terms. Like
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: we're going to get paid for this or he's going
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: to get paid. However you want to look at it,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: but she's not in the room at this time. So
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: then later when he starts filming her, she makes a
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: couple of comments about how she's not doing it for money.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: So then Nathan Fielder, his question to Amanda Seyfried is,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: is this woman really not doing it for money? And
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: she doesn't know that her husband was like bargaining and
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: negotiating on her behalf because they agreed to pay them.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Because basically they come too far at that point, right?
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: They're invested. They're going to show up. They're going to film.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: They probably had a production crew put together and they
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: hired people, all these things. Then he says he wants
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: a cut of the you know, the profits of the movie.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: So at that point, I think they had their hands tied.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: So they had to agree to it. So there is
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: a contract in place where I don't know how much
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: money it was or what the percentage was, but they
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: did agree to pay them. Wow. So then when he's
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: filming her during this 30 days or however many days
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: it was, and she makes comments about how she's not
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: doing it for money. His question is, is she lying
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and being manipulative? Or does she really not know that
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: when she left the room, her husband was negotiating on
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: her behalf and was getting paid for this?
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess she didn't know. So this is what.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out. So I.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, he tells her, he goes
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: and visits her at prison. This is like towards the
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: end of the movie. And when he goes and visits
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: her in prison, obviously we can't see this. So this
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: is a reenactment. So now Amanda Seyfried's there, right? Playing her.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: And he tells her about this situation where Billy asks
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: for money and that he's getting paid and he wants
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: to know if she was involved in it. And again,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: you don't get any real answers. She doesn't really answer anything.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: She just makes it like Billy knows best and whatever
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Billy wants and I mean, the character or whatever, what
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: I took away from the movie is that she was very,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: very much controlled by this husband. And so I don't
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: know if that's the way she wanted it to look
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: because when she was on trial, she made it like
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: she was very much controlled by her boyfriend at the
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: time and that he was the one that was conning everyone,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: not her. So did she want to stay consistent with this?
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: I'm just this weak.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: He didn't have any problem with, I don't know. Why
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: is he, why is his, why is his in clean?
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Who?
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Billy.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying they are. I thought Billy was a jerk.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: I know, but legally they're clean.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Because I don't think there's any evidence that he was
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: involved in any of the Theranos stuff at all.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: But he seems so involved when you talk to him.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Like he's all about it and he's backing her up. Well, yeah.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's all in. Right.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: And then he has her, you know, do the photo
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: shoot and have her make the videos. He's the one
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: that runs her Twitter.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: He's the kind of guy where like if the doorbell
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: rings at midnight and they're in bed, he tells her
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: to go answer the door. Oh.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've never heard that before, but you.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Well, it's because I just made up an example.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: It's not a saying. I'm just saying that's the type
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: of guy he is.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Well, he also runs her Twitter and he was posting
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: and commenting to people and telling people to F off
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: and things on her behalf. And so Nathan was trying
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: to tell her this in prison, like, do you know
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: he runs your Twitter? Do you know he's commenting on
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: your behalf? Do you know And she just didn't seem to, like,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: grasp anything or care.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Who's on first. Yeah.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: She was just like, eh. And it was very strange.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: There is a scene where Amanda Seyfried and Billy Evans,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: and she's herself, she goes and visits him. She goes
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: with Nathan. So he meets her. Yeah. Which is kind
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: of awkward, right? Because she played her. She played his
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: wife in the movie. They meet each other. She's at
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: their house. They're having dinner. And then Elizabeth Holmes calls
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: from prison and she's on speakerphone. And that's like the
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: first time Amanda ever like talks to her. And Amanda
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: asked her, did you know I was going to be
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: here tonight? And she goes, well, I don't know if
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: I knew. Like who answers that? That's what I mean.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: But she never actually answers anything directly. Like I don't
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: know if I knew anything. I'm just going to do
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: that from now on. I don't know if I knew.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I don't know. I mean, what
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: a way to just not commit.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Escape life.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: To just not commit to anything. I don't know if
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: I knew.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: I was wondering if that was her defense in court.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Because that's all she did with the director was just like,
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't know. I don't know. I don't know.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: So it was strange to me. her answer there. Like,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I knew. Anyway, then Amanda Seyfried
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: as herself, not playing a reenactment, and Billy, they actually
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: get into this argument. Because she is telling him that
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: he shouldn't be running her Twitter and he shouldn't be
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: commenting on her behalf and telling people to F off
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: on Twitter because he's representing her and her brand and
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: he shouldn't be doing that. And he makes a jab
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: at her, something like, well, you lost half of your
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: followers or something. You shouldn't be telling me anything about
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: social media because you don't know anything. And it was
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: because she had made a comment about Charlie Cook. And
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: so the two of them just start arguing well now
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: he's even a bigger jerk he's going after amanda yeah
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: he got they got in a real legit argument and
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: he like went after her hardcore she held her ground
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: pretty well i have to give her credit for that
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: she's probably not very infested but then nathan's like sitting
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: there you know they're like arguing i was like this
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: is so awkward back to my point that if elizabeth
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: speaks up to him like that imagine he probably speaks
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: to her the same Oh, I think... Which is smothering
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: whatever she has to say and then he steamrolls it. Oh,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: I would agree with that 100%.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I think he manipulates and controls her, which is sad.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: But I don't know. But I don't know. Because to me,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: she just looks like a weak, broken woman in that movie.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: I bet you every investor watched that film and thought...
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Who is that? Yeah, who is that? Right? Yeah.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: All right, in January of 2026, Elizabeth Holmes asked President
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Trump to commute her sentence in a clemency request filed
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: with the Justice Department. Her request is still pending. In
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: March of 2026, her projected release date moved to December
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: 30th of 2031. I think she got like a good
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: behavior credit. In September of 2026, so this was very recently,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: her victims were notified that she will move on August 23rd, 2027,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: to the Austin Transitional Center in Del Valle, Texas, which
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: is a halfway house. After release, she'll live in Austin
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: under federal probation supervision. Her scheduled release date is now
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: February 22nd of 2030, which is subtracting another one year
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and 10 months from her sentence. You know, with these, like,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: white-collar crimes... I feel like any opportunity they get to
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: subtract and reduce, they just do. Because at the end
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: of the day, no one was murdered. So I think
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: it's more of like you were bad and you lied
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: to people and you took money.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I like that.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: But any opportunity we get to give you a good
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: behavior credit or to take something off your sentence, we will.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: In spring of 2023, this is when you can see everything.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: That's when they start filming. So they start filming this
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: in 2023.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Was it that long ago?
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Three years ago?
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: The filmmakers, well, the end of it is more to
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: present time because it's... Yeah.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because she's in prison and stuff. When did she
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: go to prison then? If it was filmed at the
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: end of 23, did she go in February of 24? No,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: she went in 2023 to prison.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: The filmmakers heard that Elizabeth Holmes and Billy Evans had
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: contacted A24 about making a documentary. Filming started 34 days
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: before she was due to report to prison, with wide
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: access to Elizabeth, to Billy Evans, and to their two children.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Nathan Fielder actually lived with the couple during the shoot,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: and the filmmakers kept following Elizabeth Holmes for three years.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: He wasn't actually living with her in the beginning. Do
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: you remember? He was living, like, nearby, and he.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Was coming over. No, I came late to the movie.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: He was coming over and just filming all day.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: And.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Then I guess they had offered, well, you can stay here.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: He declined, right? Initially.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Initially he declined. But then during the movie, as they're filming,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: like in the beginning, it shows him actually moving in.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: He shows up with like his suitcases in his bag.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: That was when there was 14 days left. He showed up.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: He decided to move in.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Right. And then he goes into the guest bedroom and
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: there's no mattress on the bed. It was just a
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: box spring. It was pretty funny though. Cause he just
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: kind of like looks at the bed.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Like anyway.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: So he does.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Those little moments that he includes to let you know, like,
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: this is real. This is like, you know, it's just.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: They're capturing it as it's happening.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: So the directors were Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim. After
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: years of secrecy, it premiered as an unannounced secret screening
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: at the Telluride Film Festival. This was in September of 2026.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Then the movie opened on October 16th of 2026. It
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: opened in limited release, then expanded nationwide on October 23rd.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: It made $ 15 million from only 855 screens on its
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: opening weekend with more than 2,000 sold-out showings. It was
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: the second biggest opening weekend ever for a documentary. It
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: reportedly cost under $ 7 million to make the movie. Just
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: one last thought. Again, to me, if you just watched
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: the movie and you don't know anything about her, she
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: just comes off very Stepford Wife to me. Just very
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: like no substance, nothing real, nothing authentic. Like a shell
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: of a person. And I don't know what the reason is.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's because She was creating some
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: kind of character that she wanted people to feel sorry for.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Do you think she had any drugs in her system?
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I don't have any idea.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, to make her frozen like that?
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: No, I think she was just very.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, she had a lot of anxiety for the film.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if the anxiety or the shell
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: of the human or whoever she was now was because
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: she's been with this man for 10 years and he's
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: been controlling her life. And so that's why she was
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: like that. Or if she was purposely like that on
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: camera because she was trying to present like a very
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: meek and, you know, mild, non... I think you're.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Giving her too much credit to make it like she
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: portrayed the character of being an airhead. Why?
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Because she's so manipulative. I'm not giving her credit. I'm
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: saying because she's so manipulative that she's able to transform
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: and be whoever she needs to be in the moment
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: to manipulate people. I feel like she was trying to
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: manipulate Nathan Fielder into feeling sorry for her. Maybe that's
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: why she was so broken.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: And strange i think she painted herself into a corner
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: and she doesn't know how to get out of it
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: so she just shrugs her shoulder and just says i don't.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Know all right thank you guys for listening to legally
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: brunette i'd love to hear your thoughts on the movie
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: if you have seen it um let me know you
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: can find me on instagram also if you have any
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: cases to recommend please feel free free to find me
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: on instagram and send me a message um also be
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: sure to tell your friends and family about legally brunette
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: and thank you so much for listening we appreciate you